Parrot 2.0.0 "Inevitable" released! | parrot.org | Priorities: deprecated core PMCs and VTABLE entries | Roadmap: icanhaz.com/parrotroadmap | Latest modified TT's: icanhaz.com/parrotbugs
Set by moderator on 26 January 2010.
dukeleto lichtkind: the API keeps getting better 00:00
dalek TT #1410 closed by plobsing++: [DEPRECATED] 'v' as an nci argument signature
darbelo There's been setbacks. The design has mutated since.
8 years ago, we didn't know what the right thing was. 00:01
We like to think we've pinned it down since.
:)
NotFound And if you don't know what the right thing is, you can do it by mistake. Now we avoid that ;) 00:02
chromatic We're like Perl 5 and Haskell together! We avoid doing the right thing by mistake at all costs. 00:03
lichtkind and i thought dan had a masterplan and all roled out
darbelo I came here after dan left. So I can't speak to his master plan. All I know is I didn't get a copy. 00:04
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dukeleto didn't get a copy either 00:04
lichtkind: are you writing an HLL on top of Parrot?
lichtkind dukeleto: no i just writing articles and end user tuts but i am interested 00:05
NotFound I though we just use the Force.
lichtkind dukeleto: when parrot has a wx binding im interested :) 00:06
Whiteknight I would love to see more "master plan" stuff documented
dukeleto lichtkind: cool! we need more end user tutorials. I am giving a talk about Parrot at PDX.pm in a few weeks, and I would love to tell people about tutorials
Whiteknight the PDDs always strike me as being hollow and partial
chromatic I haven't seen many PDDs written from the point of view of the users of the PDD.
dukeleto PDDs are necessary and useful for devs, but not mere mortals 00:07
not saying they can't be, but that seems to be the state of things
darbelo wonders if they work for mere mortal devs.
lichtkind im currently writing november conent but when im finished with that maybe i could write some parrot stuff to
NotFound lichtkind: wxwidgets?
purl i think wxwidgets is the new name for wxWindows, an open-source cross-platform native UI framework
lichtkind it is 00:08
NotFound: yes
i also write a p6 tutorial with a section about the interpreter but never wrote directly about parrot
what you guys think is needed? 00:09
NotFound lichtkind: I don't look at it since some time. There is some C binding, or is only C++?
dukeleto slightly OT: this is a great blog post about Factor's VM: factor-language.blogspot.com/2010/0...actor.html
Whiteknight in many cases I've found the PDDs to be less helpful and explanatory of the "big picture" than the inline function documentation
of course, I wrote much inline function documentation, so I may be partial
chromatic I've generally found the PDDs to explain *what* to implement, not how or why.
lichtkind NotFound: its written in c++ and has a huuuge API ask mattia he uses M4 scripts to assemble this whole stuff
Whiteknight chromatic: maybe I'm tainted by PDD09, which is little more than a rehash of the inline function documentation of src/gc/api.c 00:10
chromatic No kidding.
lichtkind yeah factor ist one of my interests
dukeleto lichtkind: would you like to work on Factor on Parrot? github.com/leto/kea 00:11
lichtkind: do you have a github username? i can give you a bit
lichtkind dukeleto: no becaue a) i dont know factor enough and b) my project called kephra is very time consuming 00:12
dukeleto lichtkind: no worries. Kephra the editor?
lichtkind dukeleto: yes my baby 00:13
dukeleto lichtkind: cool
Whiteknight GSOC 2010 just got confirmed. We should come up with a list of projects
I would love to see AIO, Threads, JIT, Optimizations, Lorito, and other cool projects get mentioned 00:14
chromatic AIO and Lorito seem compelling. Maybe a GC. 00:15
plobsing can miniparrot run nqp?
chromatic Speaking of GC, we really need to get that underway for Rakudo.
cconstantine I'm most interested in seeing threads.. one of my plans for Reason is to include some kind of clojure style STM 00:16
dukeleto Whiteknight: interesting! RTEMS and other embedded projects are very possible 00:17
Whiteknight what about the RTEMS port needs a summers-worth of work?
lichtkind what is miniparrot? 00:18
purl it has been said that miniparrot is segfaulting in the branch now, didn't last time I looked at it
dukeleto lichtkind: kind of like miniperl, a bootstrap-ish parrot that has very little or no loading of dynamic code
plobsing lichtkind: miniparrot is parrot minus some features. used in the build. not for end users really.
lichtkind purl: that doenst help me
purl lichtkind: huh?
chromatic purl, miniparrot?
purl it has been said that miniparrot is segfaulting in the branch now, didn't last time I looked at it
dukeleto lichtkind: purl is a sassy bot
chromatic purl forget miniparrot 00:19
purl chromatic: I forgot miniparrot
chromatic botsnack
purl :)
dukeleto purl, die in a fire
purl HALP
darbelo Whiteknight: Getting Configure in shape to support cross-compiling is at least half a summer.
Whiteknight ah, a cross-compiling configuration system would be hot
chromatic purl, miniparrot is Parrot minus some features for use in the build. It's not for end users.
purl OK, chromatic.
dukeleto Whiteknight darbelo: cross-compiling support is now holding up porting Parrot to at least 2 embedded platforms
Whiteknight chromatic: no way in hell we're getting in a good GC before Rakudo* 00:20
dukeleto i got word that I will get sample hardware from www.buglabs.net/ so I can port Parrot to their embedded linux distro. they are very nice folks
lichtkind dukeleto: i thought you have an parrot docs why need additional doku?
chromatic Whiteknight, I think it's doable.
dukeleto lichtkind: say what?
purl it has been said that say is the new println
darbelo dukeleto: Given that I'll be attending a workshop on embedded platforms next month, I'm pretty much interested in getting parrot there. 00:21
dukeleto oh println, probably the first function I ever invoked
Whiteknight chromatic: then we need a solid plan. Something less nebulous than "I think it has to be generational"
dukeleto darbelo: which workshop?
lichtkind dukeleto: what kinf of docs you exaclty miss for parrot?
dukeleto darbelo: congrats, you are on the Parrot+BUG team!
Whiteknight chromatic: we need a specific algorithm and a list of steps needed to implement it
dukeleto lichtkind: we need a nice end-user doc for "how to start a new language with Parrot" 00:22
Whiteknight writing the GC never takes nearly as long as debugging it
dukeleto lichtkind: a guide to using NQP-based tools. we had a squaak tutorial, but it is now outdated
darbelo The one in the SASE, it's based on mbed's cortex M3 boards.
chromatic I'm happy to write an algorithm; it's encapsulating the current GC to make it possible to switch between the two that trips me. 00:23
cconstantine speaking of making languages how would I go about adding members to my HLL compiler?
lichtkind darbelo: what is SASE?
purl hmmm... SASE is Self Addressed Stamped Envelope
plobsing purl++ # for once 00:24
lichtkind purl that doesnt help either
purl lichtkind: excuse me?
darbelo Oh, of course. "Simposio Argentino de Sistemas Embebidos"
lichtkind dukeleto: got it, if i had a clone i would write rebol compiler for parrot but im writing a parrot page in the november wiki for the start 00:25
darbelo It's a big event to promote embedded systems development in academia. So to speak.
dukeleto lichtkind: sounds like a good start
darbelo: so you will be there to represent Parrot? Awesome! 00:26
Whiteknight chromatic: I'm looking at bacek's gc_encapsulate branch now, does that do what you need?
chromatic I don't know.
bacek_at_work it does.
purl if you say so...
darbelo dukeleto: Not really. It's a "Show academia what the industry's been up to" kind of event.
bacek_at_work We can properly use Boehm GC after this branch
Whiteknight bacek_at_work: okay, nice. I'm lookig at the diff now 00:27
chromatic Heh, "properly"
Whiteknight chromatic: I would love to see some profile and benchmark information about the string compactor if you have that info
bacek_at_work chromatic, yes. Without branch we can't pass memory layout to Boehm
Whiteknight bacek: have you tried it with Boehm? 00:28
darbelo dukeleto: As a studen't I'm on the academia side. I'm going there to learn what the industry's been up to.
bacek_at_work Whiteknight, not yet. It's not finished.
Whiteknight bacek_at_work: ah, right 00:29
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chromatic String compactor? 00:33
dukeleto darbelo: sounds good. try to get free samples of hardware :) 00:34
darbelo I'll keep an eye out for unguarded cortex boards ;)
Whiteknight chromatic: src/gc/alloc_resources.c, especially compact_pool(), alloc_new_block() and mem_allocate() 00:36
dukeleto darbelo: good man!
ash_ what kind of hardware? 00:39
darbelo The workshop will be based on the mbed cortex-M3. 00:42
But I'm not picky whn I'm begging. ;)
ash_ i know someone that just got one 00:43
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lichtkind was speaking so much about kicking and was kicked out of the internet 00:44
have take more care of my jedi powers
ash_ an mbed, he's got some version of python running on it, which i thought was kinda cool
lichtkind hm the chatlogs says that my last comment didnt made it 00:45
dukeleto: its a chain of kicking the ass, i as a november user kick masak for all the missing feature, he kicks jonathan because whats missing in rakudo to develope november and he kicks patrick because PCT and he kicks you :)
cconstantine is anyone else having problems getting to www.parrotcode.org 00:53
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darbelo cconstantine: In an ideal workld everyone would have trouble getting to parrotcode.org 00:54
That site's obsolete.
cconstantine oh?
I'm looking for a reference for hte PAST types
darbelo You'll have a better chance on parrot.org, maybe. 00:55
And on that note I depart on the hunt for foods.
dukeleto lichtkind: recursive ass-kicking is quite effective 01:00
yet another reason to kill parrotcode.org
it *really* confuses people
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Whiteknight NFG and a strings refactor might be a good project idea 01:06
dukeleto Whiteknight: New Found Glory are getting into the VM game now? 01:09
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cconstantine is there anyway to define multi methods in the PAST? 01:20
lichtkind good night
cconstantine 'night 01:21
lichtkind thanks 01:32
Whiteknight dukeleto: I don't see why not. Is there anything those guys can't do? 01:40
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dukeleto 'ello 02:29
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nopaste "JimmyZ" at 61.144.177.86 pasted "parrot make error on Win32 with strawberry perl again and again" (10 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/19379 02:35
JimmyZ oh,it's my mistake 02:50
dalek pir: 11f686d | dukeleto++ | TODO:
Update TODO
 02:52
plobsing what's the best (easiest) way to do table driven code (HoH) with core parrot tools? 02:55
cotto What manner of hackery has entered into your mind? 03:06
You can put subs into a hash if you're in PIR.
nm. brainfail 03:07
plobsing cotto: I want to convert tools/build/nativecall.pl into something executable by miniparrot
cotto: I think I've settled on using data_json
theory dukeleto: ping 03:09
JimmyZ wonders why nobody took a look at his ticket 03:12
dukeleto theory: thong 03:15
JimmyZ: which ticket? 03:16
JimmyZ dukeleto: It's outdated now.
dukeleto plobsing: data_json sounds like it could be a good fit
theory: can pgtap do what i want to do? 03:17
JimmyZ dukeleto: just some patches. 03:18
cconstantine soooo, tailcall is hard to use from the PAST 03:19
theory dukeleto: Yes 03:20
dukeleto: First, the description argument must be text
dukeleto: Second, you must compare apples to apples. 03:21
dukeleto: so
elect is(test_float(), 1.0::float,'1e-6');
dukeleto theory: examples please! maybe not here
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ash_ does parrot support multi-methods? 03:27
cconstantine ash_: yes, dispatched based on type 03:28
docs.parrot.org/parrot/latest/html/...s.pod.html
ash_ ah, i see the section yes, thanks 03:29
cconstantine :)
dalek rrot: r43613 | coke++ | trunk (3 files):
remove deprecated Parrot_call_method_ret_float (TT #1145)
 03:36
rrot: r43614 | coke++ | trunk (3 files):
remove deprecated Parrot_call_method_ret_int (TT #1145)
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dalek parrot: c57e0e8 | dukeleto++ | t/test.sql:
Improve casting-fu in our tests, and add a few. Thanks for help from theory++
 03:45
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dalek rrot: r43615 | coke++ | trunk (5 files):
remove deprecated Parrot_call_method (TT #1145)
 03:53
rrot: r43616 | coke++ | trunk/MANIFEST.SKIP:
regenerate.
rrot: r43617 | coke++ | trunk (3 files):
remove deprecated Parrot_call_sub_ret_float (TT #1145)
rrot: r43618 | coke++ | trunk/DEPRECATED.pod:
remove lack of list.
 04:09
ttbot Parrot trunk/ r43620 i386-linux-thread-multi make error tt.ro.vutbr.cz/file/cmdout/186501.txt ( tt.ro.vutbr.cz//buildstatus/pr-Parrot/rp-trunk/ ) 04:20
Coke cotto: the windows build was fine earlier. 04:23
Did you just rebreak it, or just remove a useless change? 04:24
cotto the latter
purl i heard the latter was better
ttbot Parrot trunk/ r43621 i386-linux-thread-multi make error tt.ro.vutbr.cz/file/cmdout/186532.txt ( tt.ro.vutbr.cz//buildstatus/pr-Parrot/rp-trunk/ )
cotto or so I thought
Coke heh. 04:25
dalek parrot: d2b78ea | (David E. Wheeler)++ | Makefile:
Configure `psql` in the `Makefile`
Coke ttbot is also a master of timing.
purl okay, Coke.
rrot: r43619 | plobsing++ | trunk/compilers/data_json/Rules.mak:
fix building data_json
rrot: r43620 | cotto++ | trunk/src/packfile.c:
[packfile] fix some compiler warnings
rrot: r43621 | cotto++ | trunk/lib/Parrot/H2inc.pm:
[h2inc] revert an earlier failed attempt to fix the win32 build
cotto '20 definitely had some extra stuff in it 04:26
svn-- 04:27
but I should know better than to keep two sets of unrelated changes in the copy I commit from 04:29
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dalek rrot: r43622 | cotto++ | trunk/src/packfile.c:
[packfile] back out some inadvertent changes
 04:42
rrot: r43623 | coke++ | trunk/DEPRECATED.pod:
truth in advertising.
purl truth in advertising is probably good
dukeleto cotto: one day you will love the "git stash" command 05:17
cotto I love it now. 05:19
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dukeleto cotto: ah, you have seen the light 05:25
cotto As far as I'm concerned, Parrot can't switch to git soon enough.
dukeleto cotto++ 05:26
cotto but there are other concerns
dukeleto like what?
i have been working on the wiki page
cotto making sure most (ideally all) other active developers are ready and ensuring that the integration tools we want to use exist and are mature 05:27
dukeleto++ for the wiki work
dukeleto cotto: i totally agree. i am willing to be "the goto" guy for all that 05:30
i just went through it at $work, and we have a way more complicated setup than parrot will need 05:31
trac integration is key
nothing can happen until trac has proper git integration
cotto yup. From what I can tell that's the main issue that needs to be addressed. 05:32
dukeleto our ticket system is oblivious to our version control system at work, so that wasn't an issue
cotto sounds charming 05:33
dukeleto our ticket system was written while the company was still on RCS, so that is a good thing 05:36
cotto Would there be any advantage to hosting it ourselves rather than using github? 05:37
dukeleto cotto: github would just be a mirror. we would probably want to use all the free git mirror services as well as running our own box
i just mirror parrot on github because it is a nice interface. i also put stuff on leto.net/gitweb/ 05:38
when github is down, i use that
and i have an alias called "git spread" which pushes to multiple remotes, so you don't have to think about it 05:39
cotto I hadn't thought about that, but that makes sense. 05:43
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dukeleto the postgres and parrot header files do not like each other 06:33
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dukeleto anybody have any clue how to get around this? gist.github.com/287597 06:37
parrot and postgres both define some gettext functions that collide, as well as List, Buffer, Hash and PANIC
dukeleto listens to some crickets 06:46
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cotto Oh C. What a wacky language you are. 06:52
dukeleto yeah buddy
namespaces? what the hell are those for? 06:53
cotto losers
that's what
purl That's *WRONG!*
cotto urg 06:54
good luck 06:55
purl You'll need it.
cotto and good night
dukeleto objective C at least has some nice stuff: stackoverflow.com/questions/178434/...-collision 06:58
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dukeleto chromatic: hola! 07:02
chromatic: got any tuits you could lend me for this? gist.github.com/287597
smolder is still geb0rken 07:03
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chromatic Will take a look. 07:09
dukeleto chromatic: thanks! 07:15
chromatic ugh.
dukeleto i am attempting to get PL/Parrot to compile 07:16
chromatic I don't think Parrot should export Hash and List.
dukeleto and i ran into that
yes, please and thank you!
chromatic That probably means we have to exclude including those headers from whatever you're including.
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dukeleto parrot.h, config.h, embed.h and runcore_api.h is what i am including 07:17
purl somebody said including was fine for files that just define some const. Using it as an attempt of quick load_bytecode is wrong.
dukeleto chromatic: does that incur the dep cycle? 07:18
chromatic Can't see how it would.
Drop parrot.h.
dukeleto parrot.h is required to be loaded for the others to work 07:19
i get a bazillion errors, otherwise 07:20
chromatic: for instance, this makes the docs/embed.pod example compile: gist.github.com/287626 07:21
chromatic: should i commit that, or are you saying that including parrot.h is wrong?
chromatic I think including parrot.h is wrong.
What if you include config.h, embed.h, and extend.h?
dukeleto chromatic++ 07:23
odd, it seems that docs/embed.pod does compile. i must have been lost in a twisty maze 07:24
chromatic parrot.h is prime real estate though. It's tempting to use. 07:26
dukeleto yeah, i was like "that sounds like it can solve my problems" .... THUNK 07:29
chromatic Everything you want... and MORE.
dukeleto Undefined symbols: "_Parrot_new", referenced from: 07:35
oops 07:36
chromatic Probably something we need to put in extend/embed.h 07:42
dukeleto chromatic: what, exactly, needs to be in there?
chromatic Whatever symbols you're missing, if you should be using them. 07:43
dukeleto i think that error is because I am not giving the correct link flags
i am trying to figure out how to tell pg about parrot_config{ldflags} 07:44
but maybe i am wrong 07:46
chromatic Sounds right to me; that sounds like a linking error. 07:49
dukeleto i can't find where to wedge in "-L/usr/local/lib -L/opt/local/lib -L/Users/leto/svn/parrot/blib/lib" into pg's buildchain 07:50
hmmm 07:52
i put it in the correct place, but _Parrot_new is still not defined 07:53
chromatic You also need -lparrot 07:54
dukeleto chromatic++
it compiles! ::a screaming goes across the sky:: 07:55
we now have a postgres language which creates a parrot interpreter for each backend connection. it is a start 07:56
chromatic A screaming *comes* across the sky. 07:58
dukeleto depends on where you are due to doppler shift
chromatic I'm telling you what my book says.
dukeleto chromatic: sounds good ;) 08:01
wagle dukeleto: parser done 08:02
dukeleto wagle: !!!
wagle: show me the code or it didn't happen 08:03
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wagle all 112 lines of it? here? 08:03
dukeleto pastebin?
purl rumour has it pastebin is see nopaste. or see shadowpaste
dukeleto nopaste?
purl i heard nopaste was at nopaste.snit.ch/ (ask TonyC for new channels) or paste.scsys.co.uk/ or App::Nopaste or tools/dev/nopaste.pl or at www.extpaste.com/ or paste.scsys.co.uk (for #catalyst, #dbix-class, #moose and others) or gist.github.com/ or paste or gtfo or tools/dev/nopaste.pl or trac.parrot.org/parrot/browser/tru...nopaste.pl
dukeleto do we have enough pastebin solutions? 08:04
nopaste "wagle" at 173.50.248.236 pasted "ta da!" (118 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/19380
wagle hardly nice haskell code, but it parses scheme 08:05
strings to values to programs
its more 20 year old scheme written in bad haskell, but i'll refactor it later 08:06
dukeleto wagle: looks nice, like a big steak
wagle now, i just have to translate the programs to pir
dukeleto wagle: SMOP, indeed 08:08
wagle oh wait.. shag is this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T1vfsHYiKY..._embedded#
SMOP? 08:09
purl SMOP is a Simple Meta Object Programming or Simple Matter of Programming at www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop or people.debian.org/~ruoso/SMOP.pdf
wagle The requested URL /~ruoso/SMOP.pdf was not found on this server.
dukeleto sucks
purl, no SMOP is Simple Meta Object Programming or Simple Matter of Programming at www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?smop 08:10
purl OK, dukeleto.
wagle oh, first url worked.. 8)
dukeleto yeah, that was the intended meaning
wagle the video visualizes the SMOP 08:11
dalek parrot: 7c91019 | dukeleto++ | src/handler/Makefile:
Get the proper Parrot include directory from parrot_config
 08:12
parrot: d7fafb8 | dukeleto++ | Makefile:
Fix typo in 'make install' target
parrot: 1f33383 | dukeleto++ | src/handler/ (2 files):
Include Parrot header files and create an interpreter object

reading .pbc files, calling Parrot API functions and perhaps talking to some kind of persistent Parrot.
wagle by the way, I wrote all that this evening.. B-) 08:13
darn, i need about 3-5 more hours, and I will crash in 1 or so 08:14
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wagle main thing about pir is you have to generate temporaries? 08:16
wagle is frantically trying to find a way to get factorial running in 1-2 hours 08:17
chromatic You should write in Haskell. Haskell's a great language for writing simple mathematical functions like factorial or Fibonacci. 08:18
wagle ... and compilers 08:19
... to run factorial functions
chromatic I almost wrote "whoosh".
The first serious Haskell code I wrote, I found a bug in its garbage collector.
wagle ewww 08:20
when was that?
which haskell?
what was cool here was the parser just worked once I got it to compile 08:21
chromatic GHC 6.8? 6.4? It was in 2005 or 2006.
2005, I think.
wagle recent enough to shake head and wonder
dukeleto you get what you pay for 08:22
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dukeleto japhb: jolly good localtime() 08:22
japhb o/ 08:23
dukeleto PL/Parrot compiles on OpenBSD, ubuntu and OS X. pretty cool 08:25
japhb indeed, that's excellent news
dalek parrot: 35d5c12 | dukeleto++ | PLATFORMS:
Update platforms with my data point
 08:29
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wagle can you set a pmc to 10? 09:52
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wagle hmm 09:54
diediedie!
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wagle nudge 09:56
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dalek rrot: r43624 | mikehh++ | trunk/MANIFEST.SKIP:
Regenerate MANIFEST.SKIP
 10:06
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mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#31937), fulltest) at r43624 - Ubuntu 9.10 i386 (gcc with --optimize) 10:24
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mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#31938), fulltest) at r43624 - Ubuntu 9.10 i386 (g++ with --optimize) 10:59
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mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, smoke (#31939), fulltest) at r43624 - Ubuntu 9.10 i386 (gcc) 11:13
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mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, smoke (#31941), fulltest) at r43624 - Ubuntu 9.10 i386 (g++) 11:35
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12:07 Piper joined
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bacek fperrad++ # Reporting bug "fixed" in r43625 12:08
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Infinoid hmm 12:09
bacek Infinoid?
purl Infinoid is Mark Glines <mailto:mark@glines.org> or likes shiny things or the master of the universe
Infinoid bacek!
bacek Infinoid!!!
purl it has been said that infinoid is Mark Glines <mailto:mark@glines.org> or likes shiny things or the master of the universe
Infinoid hai :)
bacek bacek?
purl you are THE MANIAC or some sort of magical coding robot
12:09 Piper joined
Piper Hi there. I am Piper. I am now publicly logging this channel. If you don't want to be logged, please leave now. 12:09
bacek heh
12:10 Piper joined
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moritz Hi there. I am Moritz. I'll ban Piper if he continues to unnerv us
bacek moritz, do it. Do it NOW 12:11
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Infinoid moritz++ 12:12
I suspect it's filled up its disk 12:13
bacek I think piper is even less useful than purl. 12:15
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dalek rrot: r43625 | bacek++ | trunk/src/pmc/orderedhash.pmc:
Fix OrderedHash to unbreak Lua.
 12:16
12:17 mikehh joined
dalek TT #1417 closed by bacek++: src/pmc/orderedhash.pmc errors 12:31
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mikehh bacek: ping 12:37
bacek mikehh, pong 12:38
mikehh bacek: I set up two branches 1 to remove deprecated VTABLEs amd 2 to move core to dynpmcs as requested by chromatic 12:39
feel free to work in them
I still need to figure what is required 12:40
bacek mikehh, I don't think that we need branch for removing deprecated VTABLEs. It can be done in trunk. 12:41
btw, can you kill orderedhash_revamp branch? It was merged into trunk.
mikehh bacek: sure
bacek karma jimmy 12:42
purl jimmy has karma of 98
bacek karma jimmyz
purl jimmyz has karma of 14
bacek jimmy++ than 12:43
mikehh I am not sure about bitwise VTABLE functions which should be replaced with dynpmcs before removing 12:44
but will work on that in the move_core_to_dynpmcs branch or shopuld I create another
dalek TT #1396 closed by bacek++: [patch]changed two PMCs to use GET_ATTR syntax 12:47
bacek mikehh, erm... How we can replace VTABLE with dynpmcs? 12:48
and do we have list of deprecated VTABLEs?
dalek rrot: r43626 | bacek++ | trunk/src/pmc (2 files):
Apply patch to migrate Coroutine and Continuation to use
mikehh bacek: from DEPRECATED.pod - 12:52
All bitwise VTABLE functions [eligible in 2.1]
All bitwise VTABLE functions (all VTABLE functions containing C<bitwise> in
their names) will be removed. Equivalent functionality will by supplied by
bitwise dynops. 12:53
bacek yay. dinops, not dynpmc
mikehh so should we have a branch for that?
bacek in this case - yes. 12:54
there are 40 such functions
holy... It's almost tomorrow again... 12:56
mikehh timezone pressure: I am on UTC/GMT
bacek clock? 12:57
purl bacek: LAX: Wed 4:57am PST / CHI: Wed 6:57am CST / NYC: Wed 7:57am EST / LON: Wed 12:57pm GMT / BER: Wed 1:57pm CET / IND: Wed 6:27pm IST / TOK: Wed 9:57pm JST / SYD: Wed 11:57pm EST /
mikehh on LON time although I am in Aberdeen in Scotland 12:59
fulltest - testr FAIL - t/pmc/eval.t - Failed test: 12 - see TT #1142 13:05
all othertests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#31947), fulltest) at r43625 - Ubuntu 9.10 amd64 (gcc with --optimize)
the test fails with gcc builds but not g++ builds - I commented on TT #1142 13:06
and it passes on i386 - only fails on amd64 - for me 13:07
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dalek rrot: r43627 | mikehh++ | trunk/src/pmc/coroutine.pmc:
fix codetest failure - trailing whitespace
 13:21
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whiteknight good morning #parrot 13:28
13:30 patspam joined
Austin Good Morning, Whiteknight 13:31
How's Xander today?
whiteknight probably tired, since he didn't sleep at all last night 13:32
Austin LOL
And you know this, which kind of suggests that you got as much sleep as he did?
whiteknight which is also how I know he must be tired
purl okay, whiteknight.
Austin It's never to early too early to start slipping him a little whiskey just before bedtime... 13:33
Today's word of the day: artiodactyl 13:37
An artiodactyl has an even number of toes on each foot. I am not an artiodactyl.
I am a perissodactyl. 13:38
whiteknight I've learned something new today (Re: artiodactyl) 13:44
Austin: I'm looking for some good examples of Kakapo in use. You have any?
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mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#31951), fulltest) at r43627 - Ubuntu 9.10 amd64 (g++ with --optimize) 13:47
cconstantine would people be upset if I attempted to add optional automatic tailcall optimization to pct? 13:49
moritz cconstantine: don't think so, we're fairly liberal 13:50
cconstantine: just test that the major HLLs (rakudo, cardinal) don't break
cconstantine cool. No idea if I can do it, and I would expect it to go through review and all that
I'm picturing it as a 'must turn on' feature, so it shouldn't affect those HLLs (still worth testing) 13:51
mikehh we learn from attempts - even if they fail, but hopefully not (failing I mean)
moritz cconstantine: pmichaud would be a good person to talk to, he wrote much (nearlly all?) of PCT
cconstantine ok
moritz cconstantine: right, PCT has stages - you could just implement another stage
cconstantine mikehh: agreed
moritz and the opt-in would be to enable that stage
cconstantine exactly
moritz go for it!
cconstantine w000! 13:52
ok, well not now
I'm kinda sorta at work
Coke wow, I got dropped from the list of major HLLs. =-) 13:53
Coke *sighs*.
cconstantine who's you?
dalek rrot: r43628 | mikehh++ | branches/orderedhash_revamp:
branch has been merged into trunk
moritz Coke: major HLLs *using PCT* 13:55
mikehh Coke: who would do a thing like that?
moritz Coke: last I remembered partcl didn't use PCT - but I might be wrong, of course
whiteknight cconstantine: I am interested in writing some optimizations for PCT as well 13:56
cconstantine whiteknight: cool
whiteknight There should be a way to hot-plug optimization steps in explicitly if needed 13:57
cconstantine optimizations are tricksy
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whiteknight I'm inspired by LLVM's JIT, which allows you to add optimization steps in before compilation 14:05
what I would like to see in PCT is a PAST::add_optimization() method where we could add in optimization objects
those objects either act on the PAST tree itself or on the generated PIR code 14:06
so for something like a tailcall optimization, we would modify the generated code of a function-call PAST node, if it's the last node in the parent's children array
moritz and then be sure that it doesn't break any scoping related things 14:07
whiteknight moritz: any optimization we make is likely to break some languages. Optimization steps for PCT will have to always be opt-in 14:08
moritz (I'm not sure how tightly related lexicals and subs are in parrot)
whiteknight moritz: pretty tightly
moritz then there's a chance that it doesn't break
whiteknight but some HLLs, like Matrixy, don't need lexical variable scoping like we have in Parrot
so I want to be able to optimize those all away 14:09
Coke moritz: if I'm using nqp-rx, I'm using pct, neh? 14:21
(or no?)
moritz Coke: the question that's relevant for what we've discussed is: do you use the PAST/POST compilers of PCT?
Coke moritz: I have no idea! =-) 14:24
I'm using past and post libraries. but I think that's hidden under nqp-rx. 14:25
Coke tries to install padre and ends up killing his machine and running it out of memory.
moritz Coke: do you have lots of calls to PAST::Op.new() or so?
Coke some. 14:26
moritz then you're using it
and I was wrong not to count partcl among the major HLLs
sorry for that
Coke github.com/partcl/partcl-nqp/blob/m...ons.pm#L14
moritz: I'm not hurt, just posturing. =-) 14:27
and I didn't realize the PCT component of your discussion, either.
no worries.
purl i guess no worries. is my smoke harness code public?
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Austin Whiteknight: You mean like "Project foo uses Kakapo" (in which case: no, I don't have any) or do you mean like: 7 if %hash.contains('foo') { say("Hash contains foo"); } 0 14:46
whiteknight Austin: either. I just want to learn how to use it and maybe use it in some of my projects 14:52
Austin whiteknight: Sounds good. I'm paying my 2.0 tax this week, but I should have something usable in a few days. 14:55
whiteknight Coke: ping 15:01
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dalek rrot: r43629 | fperrad++ | trunk/tools/dev/fetch_languages.pl:
[languages] fix typo
 15:32
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Coke whiteknight: pong 15:56
whiteknight Coke: you're a board member, do you know if Parrot is going to apply to GSoC this year? 15:57
Coke I can tell you it hasn't come up yet. 15:58
I can also give you my guess of "yes".
(and we might try to talk to TPF about doing umbrella again, or not.)
whiteknight that's what I was hoping. I don't want to advertise it too much on my blog or elsewhere if it's not going to happen 15:59
Coke I think we'd be crazy not to.
it's free publicity, free tuits...
Austin Coke: I emailed my pafo cla pdf to legal@parrot (twice) but haven't heard anything back. Is anyone checking that address?
Coke and since you're going to mentor the guy...
Austin: checking the logs..
austin?
purl austin is nice. or a city in Texas.
Coke austin hastings? 16:00
Austin Yep
@yahoo
Coke austin is also Mr. Hastings, if you're nasty.
purl okay, Coke.
Austin Tres disco, sir.
Coke I see a signed copy from 12/5
do you have a reference to a parrotsketch meeting where your name came up? 16:01
Austin Woo-hoo. progress.
I'll say no.
whiteknight it will come up next meeting
(if it hasn't already)
Coke can probably do a google search through irclogs.
if you can point me to a vote, I can turn your account on today.
Austin Nope. 16:03
Only thing google finds is from 07/06
Coke irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/2009-07-06 ?
Austin google site:irclog.perlgeek.de parrotsketch "Austin Hastings"
Coke (there's nothing there.)
www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=s...i=&oq= is probably better. 16:04
ok. so, path of least resistance is to get it mentioned next tuesday.
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Austin Works for me. Thanks. I was just hearing crickets on the email thing... 16:05
Coke Yeah, we don't typically resond to those for whatever reason. 16:06
dalek nxed: r373 | julian.notfound++ | trunk/ (3 files):
reimplement chomp as predefs with fix args, getting rid of the old predefs way
 16:09
nxed: r374 | julian.notfound++ | trunk/Makefile:
forgot to update Makefile
Austin is waiting for his freaking enormous TV to arrive. 16:10
NotFound Austin: How big? 16:11
Austin 60 inch
NotFound :o
Austin 152 cm.
Bwahahaha
pmichaud wonders if his 42 inch set is inadequate. 16:12
Austin And for only $900 more I can get a robotic wall mount... yeesh. 16:13
Coke bar is now at 38 or so, after the young one wiimoted the 42". 16:17
s/bar/ours/ 16:18
Austin That's me, soon.
Coke we have a mount slash entertainment stand that allows a non-robotic left-right swivel. cheap but very effective.
Austin I got a Wii for my 70+ y/o aunt & uncle for Xmas, and enjoyed myself so much that I bought one for my house.
wagle what pattern should i use for a pir function that takes one argument of any type, but then wants to do a > (greater than) on it with a int constant?
Austin wagle: PMC ? 16:19
purl well, PMC is responsible for deciding whether to extend itself or not. or a parrot thing, kind of like "magical holds-one-of-anything variable"? or parrot magic cookie or Parrot Magic Cookie or pARROT mAGIC cOOKIE or Poly Morphic Cracker (for the Parrot) or a big problem for optimizations or a compiled pm
wagle can make the arg a pmc, but then it wont work in * expressions, but will in + 16:20
Austin You said takes one arg. I think that the arg coercer will promote an int into an Integer PMC, but not vice versa.
So if you want to take both int and pmc args, I think you need a pmc param. 16:21
Coke you can declare your arg as int and it'll just coerce it on the way in.
wagle started a scheme compiler last night. front end is "done", now building the backend
Austin Will it?
purl rumour has it Will it is it being written to use djb's string functions and such
Coke yes. if you declare a .sub with a ".param int foo" and pass it a PMC, it will do the equivalent of $I0 = $P0 on the pmc arg.
(assuming it's not a multi or if it is that turns out to be the best match.) 16:22
Austin So there you have it.
wagle i seem to have to know to coerce it to int before doing > and * (ie, the factorial function as helloworld)
Austin ?
Coke is your '>' a function?
Austin Declare it as int (like coke said above)
Coke that is, a .sub ?
or are you relying on PIR's > operator? 16:23
if you're using the operator (or opcode) variant, yes, you'll need to coerce it first if that's the comparison you really want.
Austin .sub "factorial" .param int n if n > 1 goto recurse return 1 recurse: ...
wagle scheme functions take anything.. this is supposed to be dynamic, but i need a type inferer?
i
Coke let's back up. 16:24
why isn't just using the PMC working for you?
wagle the function shouldnt force it to int until it does a int operation
cant do > and * to PMCs
another problem is int vs float 16:25
but thats not importaqnt yet 16:26
Coke ok. int vs. float, then yes, you can coerce them manually to do the appropriate check, sure. (though $I0 vs $N2) should still compare/multiple correctly.
building parrot to try to disprove one of your statements... 16:27
Austin pmichaud: I have a problem in nqp with subclassing. I declare Foo::Parent and then Foo::Child is Foo::Parent, but when I inspect all parents of Child's parrotclass, I don't see Parent. What entity will have the correct lineage?
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wagle i get to send factorial a float, and it should work.. should work with int too 16:28
nopaste "coke" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "this works for me" (20 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/19382
Coke that shows * and > working with a PMC in PIR.
(and those are really just opcodes under the covers.)
wagle error:imcc:The opcode 'sub_i_p_ic' (sub<3>) was not found. Check the type and number of the arguments
Coke your target has to be a PMC. 16:29
not an int.
IIRC.
wagle ok, lemme give it another whirl in pedantic mode
Coke basically: show me the code that doesn't work. =-)
I assume your error is from your code, not my nopaste. 16:31
mikehh fulltest - testr FAIL - t/pmc/eval.t - Failed test: 12 - see TT #1142
all other tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#31953), fulltest) at r43629 - Ubuntu 9.10 amd64 (gcc)
wagle hmm.. i must have been sloppy abiout switching between $In and $Pn.. works now 16:32
... or else someone snuck onto my machine and installed a working parrot
8)
Austin It's one o'clock and time for lunch. Dum de dum de dum. 16:33
pmichaud Austin: old nqp, or new one?
Austin parrot-nqp from2.0 16:34
wagle ok, it all works now.. thanks for working me through my confusion 16:35
Coke np.
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Austin pmichaud: parrot-nqp --version says: This compiler is built with the Parrot Compiler Toolkit, parrot revision 0. 16:36
wagle are there args for parameters, or you just HAVE to use :slurpy if you just cant stand to name your args?
are there REGISTERS for parameters, or you just HAVE to use :slurpy if you just cant stand to name your args?
Austin wagle: slurpy 16:37
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wagle is trying to avoid name collisions 16:37
okeh, thanks
Austin wagle: The registers don't get names unless you assign them (.local pmc n) or mention a register explicitly ($I0 = ...) 16:38
pmichaud Austin: how are you getting Child's parrotclass?
Austin But the register names - even $I0 - are locally scoped. Don't worry about colliding the names.
Coke s/locally/sub/
(as opposed to file, which is really the only other option for pir) 16:39
nopaste "Austin" at 68.37.46.53 pasted "P6object class dumper" (47 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/19384
wagle i can handle numbering them uniquely..
Austin pmichaud: (see nopaste) I'm doing the get-meta . get-parrotclass thing
Coke wagle: there are tools for managing that sort of thing already. 16:40
Austin wagle: You just have to uniquify them within the sub.
Coke (i would just hate to see you reinvent past/post/pct/CodeString)
wagle for this version, i want to do it myself.. eventually i write the thing in itself
this toy compiles scheme to pir 16:41
Coke what do those do? 16:42
pmichaud Austin: how is get_meta defined?
Austin new P6metaclass 16:43
pmichaud okay. one can just use P6metaclass directly, too.
Austin Meaning P6metaclass.get_parrotclass? 16:44
pmichaud yes
Austin I'm never quite sure which methods are on the protoobject....
pmichaud the protoobject has all of the same methods as an instance
Austin Hmm.
pmichaud (because the protoobject is itself an instance)
Austin Cool.
Is that still true in -rx? 16:45
With our / my methods?
pmichaud yes
does -rx support our / my methods? I'm not sure it does.
I think -rx just supports plain methods, no decoration
Austin You keep threatening to make all the non-our methods invisible.
pmichaud but yes, it'd be true for our / my methods as well 16:46
(because the protoobject is itself an instance of the class)
Austin But anyway, parents. 16:47
pmichaud nopaste coming 16:48
Coke wagle: there's already a compiler infrastructure built on top of PIR.
You may be re-inventing the wheel in some areas.
(this may be fine for you.) 16:49
nopaste "pmichaud" at 66.25.4.52 pasted "class Foo::Child is Foo::Parent (for Austin++)" (70 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/19385
16:49 ash_ joined
pmichaud looks to me like it's finding Foo;Parent just fine 16:50
(I had to change the dump code slightly because I don't have a .join or .keys method defined)
Austin Sure. 16:52
wagle Coke: i wont waste more than a day or three before trying those.. right now i'm sketching my old scheme compiler from 20 years ago 16:54
nopaste "Austin" at 68.37.46.53 pasted "My version of Foo::Child" (46 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/19386 16:55
16:56 payload joined
Austin I commented out the no-dump-self guard, and the parents list for child just includes child and p6object. 16:56
mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#31954), fulltest) at r43629 - Ubuntu 9.10 amd64 (g++) 16:58
Austin And yet the generated pir shows both classes created together, etc.
nopaste "Austin" at 68.37.46.53 pasted "Creating the classes" (10 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/19387
"pmichaud" at 66.25.4.52 pasted "Foo::Child still works here..." (81 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/19388 17:03
pmichaud not entirely sure what's different or causing the difference
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Austin Nor me. The things that occur to me are (1) I may have replaced a method in P6object; and (2) my runtime configuration is using loading, so not everything is "all together." I don't think that should matter, but ... 17:06
Thanks for the eyeballs. It's good to know it works for someone. :) 17:08
pmichaud++
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dukeleto 'ello 17:32
Coke: yes, i have told wagle about our compiler infrastructure, but he wants to do it the way he is going about it, at least as a first iteration 17:33
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wagle i need to directly express the stuff in my head before shoehorning it into the parrot mold.. (which will reshape the stuff in my head) 17:38
but i'm planning to retarget to various other vm's
so..
also planning
dalek parrot: 27eb4ef | darbelo++ | PLATFORMS:
[PLATFORMS] Reformat the arch on the first report for consistency.
 17:39
wagle where do you go for the gory details on newclosure opcode? webpage just (mostly) says it exists 17:46
pmichaud pdd20, probably 17:47
wagle pmichaud: thanks.. now i know about pdd 17:50
plobsing is there a reason there isn't a form of sprintf in PIR that accepts a key? 17:55
it seems to me that it would make it easier to use
whiteknight plobsing: example?
plobsing $S0 = sprintf "Ignored signature '%s' on line %d (previously seen on line %d)", [full_sig; lineno; $I0]
whiteknight ah, that does seem useful 17:56
Coke hurm. you could try just using a pmc %FOO there. 17:57
(whatever the %% is for pmcs)
plobsing but I don't need that pmc elsewhere. keys are basically a convenient shorthand for creating PMCs used in only one op 17:58
Coke I'm not saying create a PMC.
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Coke oh, I see what you're doing there. 17:59
plobsing what is involved in adding a form of an op? 18:00
whiteknight plobsing: black magic
plobsing: check out src/ops/string.ops for current examples
plobsing yeah. I can understand those. Its code elsewhere I'm woried about. 18:01
whiteknight I think the op also needs to be added to ops.num, unles it's experimental
i don't think there is code anywhere else
plobsing there's always action at a distance in my experience
maybe I'll get lucky
chromatic That's all I remember doing. 18:02
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Coke if you're adding an op, pretty much always put it into experimental.ops to start with. 18:02
(then ops.num and warnings about deprecating go away.)
dalek parrot: ea8a5a8 | (David Fetter)++ | PLATFORMS:
Added self.
 18:24
parrot: cb46c11 | (David Fetter)++ | PLATFORMS:
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:leto/plparrot
Coke (sprintf opcode) you could do this trivially with a helper .sub 18:32
nopaste "darbelo" at 190.192.220.13 pasted "parrot_config --dump" (294 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/19390 18:43
dalek parrot: d023182 | darbelo++ | src/handler/Makefile:
Replace hrdcoded '-lparrot' with the more versatile and cross-platform $(PARROTLINKFLAGS).
 18:57
parrot: 6fb26c8 | darbelo++ | PLATFORMS:
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:leto/plparrot
rrot: r43630 | fperrad++ | trunk/runtime/parrot/library/distutils.pir:
[distutils] improve newer() when the size of target file is zero
 19:02
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dalek parrot: 7147e42 | (David Fetter)++ | t/test.sql:
test.sql now doesn't depend on whether you've

  * Created the PL/Parrot language.		 19:03
parrot: 6c1667d | (David Fetter)++ | src/handler/Makefile:
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:leto/plparrot
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dalek trixy: d1c2bcb | Whiteknight++ | README.pod:
update README to use the new setup.pir from fperrad++
 19:15
trixy: ef9b28f | Whiteknight++ | src/parser/grammar-plan.txt:
added a quick text file with my ideas about how to re-do function calls and statements to be more consisten and support nargou and nargin
trixy: 8a7ba13 | Whiteknight++ | (11 files):
Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:Whiteknight/matrixy
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TimToady phone 20:00
dukeleto home?
purl Home is where your feet are standing. or the History of Middle-Earth. A 12-volume examination of how LOTR and the associated stories evolved.
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bacek Morning. Good morning 20:45
Coke (call) sorry I missed it. :| 20:53
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cotto_work a talk by allison: www.infoq.com/presentations/randal-...4D0095E342 21:03
Coke that sounds familiar. 21:04
21:05 hercynium joined
bacek isperldead.com/ 21:06
One of the best site ever :)
darbelo bacek++
cotto_work I was wondering about that. Now I know. 21:09
interesting approach to generating better syntax error messages: research.swtch.com/2010/01/generati...rrors.html 21:21
Coke anyone have any thoughts on using npq-rx to build a grammar that didn't actually do anything other than reformat code? 21:39
cotto_work Go for it! Were you thinking of something for internal Parrot use or what? 21:40
Coke pondering doing this for cold fusion - biggest issue is that it's really CF, CFscript, javascript, CSS, SQL, and 4 kinds of HTML.
cotto_work insta-replied
eww
Coke hey, CF pays the bills. :| 21:41
could be worse, I could work for microsoft! *ZING!*
cotto_work It sounds like there's a good reason you're getting paid to touch that code.
Coke which is the ew part?
just "CF", or the combination of code types?
cotto_work so many kinds of code all mashed together 21:42
Coke welcome to the web.
chromatic Pretty printing is a well-loved technique.
cotto_work yeah. It sounds like typical web 2.o-flavored html except with more languages.
Coke I'd also like it to be easily invokable from cfeclipse, so writing it in parrot is probably not the best choice from that standpoint. 21:44
but, we'll see. Can also add in code validation if I'm smart enough.
dalek nxed: r375 | julian.notfound++ | trunk/token.cpp:
escaped double quotes in stage 0
 21:49
nxed: r376 | julian.notfound++ | trunk/winxedst0.cpp:
predefs two args compreg and load_bytecode in stage 0
nie: r93 | allisonrandal++ | trunk/runtests.py:
Allow test to run on Windows, thanks to Fran�ois Perrad for the patch.
 21:54
Coke pinged the cfeclipse list to see if anyone is interested. 21:57
(driven by a pointer a commercial tool that isn't entirely CF aware.)
dalek nie: r94 | allisonrandal++ | trunk/setup.pir:
Setting properties on setup.pir, thanks to Fran�ois Perrad for the
 21:58
nie: r95 | allisonrandal++ | trunk/setup.py:
Fix up version check so it works with Parrot 2.0. Thanks to Fran�ois
nxed: r377 | julian.notfound++ | trunk/winxedst1.winxed:
escaped double quotes, predef two args compreg and compreg the compiler as
22:07 Whiteknight joined
GeJ Good morning everyone 22:11
cotto_work good morning GeJ 22:12
Whiteknight good morning 22:14
GeJ heya cotto, Whiteknight 22:18
22:26 redbrain joined 22:32 payload joined
cotto_work I remember this guy from somewhere: fosdem.org/2010/interview/david-fetter 22:33
22:40 plobsing joined
Whiteknight he didnt mention parrot! 22:42
NotFound compilers/data_json/data_json.pbc isn't built on my system :? 22:44
plobsing NotFound: what? I thought I fixed that yesterday 22:45
NotFound Ah, let me check the rev
r43604 22:46
Ok, I'll update and rebuild
plobsing yeah, i fixed it in 43619 22:47
NotFound Fine now, thanks 22:50
dalek rrot: r43631 | plobsing++ | trunk/tools/build/nativecall.pl:
small simplifications to nativecall.pl
 22:51
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Whiteknight I'm watching that speech by Allison right now. I always like watching her presentations 23:16
cotto_work I'm not charmed by what I see in trac-hacks.org/wiki/GitPlugin. It looks like that particular Trac Git plugin still needs work. 23:20
Whiteknight are there other options? 23:21
ash_ Redmine is nice 23:22
works with multiple types of repositories
i use it for my school projects
cotto_work Whiteknight, that seems to be the most popular one. 23:24
Whiteknight what I don't like about these videos of Allison is that she's trying to explain all these concepts that are fundamental in Parrot to people who are completely non-familiar with them 23:25
Where I would prefer to maybe see a more advanced version 23:26
cotto_work Sure, but it wouldn't make sense to talk about that to a room full of jvm guys. 23:29
ash_ are you watching the video in dynamic language concepts? 23:30
23:47 tetragon joined

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