Parrot 2.6.0 | parrot.org Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Nopaste: nopaste.snit.ch:8001 | fix 'make html' (talk to Coke), update tutorial (talk to tcurtis)
Set by moderator on 21 July 2010.
Austin "And my escape will be a piece of cake, 'cause nobody's gonna get in the way of a giant mass of angry dogs walking down the street." 00:00
"Especially if it's carrying a urinal."
"Exactly."
whiteknight :)
Austin This comic reminds me a bunch of partially clips.
Tene 'k, I'll try to get to that tonight. 00:01
Austin Who runs Bartertown? 00:08
purl, who runs bartertown is <reply>Master Blaster! 00:09
purl i haven't a clue, austin
Austin :(
You're no fun at all.
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cxreg so is it a known issue that you have to have the "-dev" version of a library installed to NCI? 00:46
(that is, the .so symlink)
sorear known, yes 00:54
considered an issue, no
tcurtis cxreg: if you don't have the .so, how would you load the library? 00:55
sorear the only time you can get away with not installing the symlink is when you're using a static compiler
tcurtis probably misunderstands.
cxreg uhm 01:00
no, most linux distributions do /not/ install that symlink by default
for example: 01:01
libsqlite3-0: /usr/lib/libsqlite3.so.0.8.6
libsqlite3-dev: /usr/lib/libsqlite3.so
tcurtis cxreg: you can do that. 01:02
cxreg so you can dlopen "libsqlite3.so.0.8.6", but it requires you to know the exact version, and "libsqlite3.so" will not work without that dev package installed 01:03
cxreg shrugs
sorear cxreg: debian policy in that regard is a fossil. As more people start using FFIs, it'll have to be changed 01:09
cxreg it won't 01:12
well, maybe 01:13
the .a and .h packages will still be in -dev, but i guess they might move the .so symlink
cxreg gets Gtk2.pm6 working, w00t
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tcurtis sorear: hopefully LLVM will learn that lesson soon as well. 01:25
dalek rrot: r48247 | jkeenan++ | branches/tt1725_headerizer_documentation:
Creating tt1725_headerizer_documentation in �svn.parrot.org/parrot//branches
 01:52
rrot: r48248 | jkeenan++ | tags/tt1725_headerizer_documentation-48246:
Tagging trunk at r48246 so that the tt1725_headerizer_documentation can later be synched to it.
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dalek rrot: r48249 | jkeenan++ | branches/tt1725_headerizer_documentation (2 files):
As a step toward writing better docs for the headerizer, write some tests for Parrot::Headerizer.
 02:09
Austin msg whiteknight Of course, the *best* part of this whole namespace method crap is the part where adding methods to a class doesn't work because you also have to add the methods to the proto-class. And we're all about the encapsulation, right? 02:14
purl Message for whiteknight stored.
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NotFound hi 06:35
sorear Hi
purl hi, sorear.
Tene purl: msg austin please explain about adding methods to a class not working. 06:59
purl Message for austin stored.
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dalek kudo: f8b73df | moritz++ | src/core/Match.pm:
Match.new() (no subcaptures yet)
 10:01
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daxim the parrot-config from package parrot-devel-2.6.0-16.1 on openSUSE 11.3 gives me the config item revision == 0 12:10
is this supposed to be this way?
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kid51 reads backscroll 12:13
daxim: I believe that situation is correct.
If you built from the monthly release, what's important is the version, in this case, 2.6.0 12:14
If you were building from Subversion HEAD, the revision number would be key
It would be the Subversion revision number 12:15
daxim since this is a RPM, it's reasonable safe to say it's from the 2.6.0 release tarball
kid51 Correct
So, nothing to worry about.
daxim now the problem is that in rakudo-star's Configure a check against this number revision is made
I want to build & package rakudo-star against the external parrot, not the bundled one 12:16
I'll go over there again and report it 12:17
kid51++ for the prompt answer
kid51 to $job 12:23
NotFound daxim: I think that the purpose of rakudo star is being a full package, so building it with a different parrot is pointless. 12:31
daxim not when I'm going to package this as RPM
if I used the bundled parrot, it would conflict with the system parrot and a user would need to decide between rakudo-star and parrot+its ecosystem for no good reason 12:32
moritz daxim: it *should* work with an installed, non-svn parrot 12:33
if the version check succeeds, the revision number check shouldn't be executed
if that's not the case, file a bug report, and patch the configure script 12:34
daxim refer to paste.scsys.co.uk/47478 ; I'll report this when I have a working patch
dalek rrot: r48250 | NotFound++ | trunk/t/pmc/opcode.t:
improve test Opcode cannot_create_directly
rrot: r48251 | NotFound++ | trunk/t/pmc/oplib.t:
one more OpLib test
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Coke Yah, I also do not understand why people are trying to re-dist the * dist. 13:02
Coke thinks it would be better to just bundle parrot, the compiler, and "the modules" as 3 different things.
dalek rrot: r48252 | NotFound++ | trunk/src/io/api.c:
don't mention other PMC in TODO comment for FileHandle
 13:07
Coke (that is, in addition to the R* release, which is for users, not distributors.) 13:12
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dalek rrot: r48253 | NotFound++ | trunk/src (2 files):
avoid special case for StringHandle in Parrot_io_close and Parrot_io_is_closed
 13:24
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dalek kudo: 65eb876 | moritz++ | src/core/Any-list.pm:
attempt to produce more awesme error message when you do map { hash => 1}
 13:41
kudo: 8f8c519 | rurban++ | build/Makefile.in:
Fix installation on cygwin
kudo: 1a5d4a3 | (Christopher J. Madsen)++ | build/gen_core_pm.pl:
Explicitly request :utf8 layer in gen_core_pm.pl to fix RT #76856
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whiteknight good morning, #parrot 13:57
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whiteknight purl msg Austin: I hadn't even thought about the metaclass, that might explain some of the errors I am still seeing. Encapsulation is just a crutch good programmers use, but if you're bad enough you don't need it 13:59
purl Message for austin stored.
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mbp whois mbp 15:45
purl you are becoming the ian+emily post-bowling snack or MacBook Pro
Coke doesn't recognize any of the names responding in the current parrot-dev thread. 15:58
Casan was rakudo* based on the same version as atlanta #31, or did r* also include additional commits after #31 was released ? 16:08
tcurtis "This is Rakudo Perl 6, version 2010.07-47-g9fd5eaa built on parrot 2.6.0"
So, the latter, if I understand that correctly.
Casan let's assume that. thnx. 16:10
Coke yes, the latter. 16:12
tcurtis I think it was initially planned to just use Atlanta, but I guess something came up that necessitated not doing so.
Coke as I did the release for atlanta, and was sad to hear of bugs. =-)
tcurtis Hopefully(for convenience of redistributors), that won't be the case next month.
Casan ok good. I was just installing strawbery perl 5.12.1 and padre, and now I wanted to add parrot/rakudo, and wanted to get the latest release.. so it was parrot2.6.0+atlanta vs. r* .. now I'll try adding the perl6 plugin and r* and see if everything goes smoothly. 16:14
problems are good, they are opportunities. problems we know about are even better, can pave the way for solutions. 16:15
Coke casan - I think Alias is working on a super-bundle with everything.
(strawberry, parrot, rakudo, R* extras...) 16:16
Casan Coke: yes if not outsourced to csjewel.. Until then, I like to get a bit more familiar with the toolchain myself.
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jdv79 anyone remember where mpeters hangs out on irc? 16:17
Casan a superbundle with everything, including an improving blizkost, and embedded update mechanism.. that'll be yummie for starters.
Austin seen tene? 16:22
purl tene was last seen on #parrot 9 hours, 23 minutes and 11 seconds ago, saying: purl: msg austin please explain about adding methods to a class not working.
Coke seen mpeters? 16:23
purl I haven't seen 'mpeters', Coke
Austin msg Tene To add a method to a class pmc, you need to use the pmc's .remove_method and .add_method methods. But to add a method to a p6object class, you have to add the method to the "parrotclass' and also add it to the "protoclass" so the protoobject will respond to it.
purl Message for tene stored.
Austin msg Tene (especially if the method in question is 'new') 16:24
purl Message for tene stored.
Tene 'k, thanks. 16:25
jdv79 Coke: thanks 16:28
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Casan when installing the R* on windows using the .msi I would expect it to automatically get added to path, so it is possible to open a prompt and type perl6... but I have to run c:\\Rakudo\\bin\\perl6.exe - Is it deliberate that the users shall add it to the path manually? 16:36
Coke Casan: please ask in #perl6 on freenode. 16:39
You'll probably get a faster, saner, more targetted response to R* questions there. 16:40
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Casan Coke: thanks. 16:52
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whiteknight Austin: I would make the suggestion that Parrot's object model should have built-in support for pluggable meta-class objects, and certain calls to the class should get mirrored to the metaclass automatically, if it exists 16:58
Austin Heh 16:59
Sure.
But it's just a simple matter of incredibly painful programming.
I'd much rather everyone rewrite pmcs as derived from object. 17:00
But it's the protoclass, not the metaclass, that's causing problems.
There's this thing called the proto-object. 17:01
The proto-object is the object that lives in the namespace: Foo::Bar is a global variable that holds a proto-object pmc.
Coke ... that's not used by parrot core, but by NQP & rakudo?
or do you not mean the that proto-object?
Austin Coke: This is the "p6object.pir" way of doing things. I can't speak to Rakudo, although I believe it started this way and has drifted since. 17:02
Anyway:
tcurtis Austin: Does Foo.HOW.add_method(Foo, "name", &methodref) add the method just to the instances?
whiteknight oh, I misunderstood. I guess I didn't realize P6object used a protoobject 17:03
what's the purpose of it?
purl the purpose of it is probably to make it easier to maintain.
Austin During the class declaration process, a new class (the "parrotclass") is created. It gets methods and attributes. Then a second class is created, with both metaclass and $parrotclass as parents. This is the protoclass.
whiteknight ok. That's the "how", but not the "why" 17:04
Austin The protoclass has different semantics because it gets .new() where the parrotclass might not have it, etc. This protoclass is used as the class of the protoobject. The protoobject is then installed as Foo::Bar, so when you say Foo::Bar.new it works, and returns an instance of the $parrotclass due to how the .new method is written. 17:05
tcurtis: Don't know. Bear with me for a moment.
whiteknight Ah, I see
Austin Except ...
In order to try to get PMC types to interoperate with this, the P6metaclass.register method accepts their names as well. But PMC Proxies (pmcproxy.pmc) don't do the whole attribute thing, so the code that links the parrotclass, the metaclass instance, the protoclass, and the protoobject together can't do it for proxies (no attributes). 17:06
So trying to install methods on pmc types is a bit of a challenge now, because the namespace .get_class returns the pmcproxy, but there's no way to connect from the proxy to the protoclass. I have to restart with the global symbol approach, which of course won't work for anoynmous classes (no global symbols). 17:09
Hence, "simple matter of incredibly painful programming"
whiteknight I think I missed a point: Why don't pmcproxies support attributes? 17:10
or, properties, or whatever? Why doesn't (can't?) the pmcproxy contain a link to the protoobject?
Austin tcurtis: The Foo.HOW method returns the metaclass object. The metaclass.add_method method fetches the parrotclass and adds the method to it. It ignores the protoclass. (This isn't bad unless there's a conflicting method, which in the case of 'new' there definitely is.) 17:11
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cotto_work2 ~~ 17:12
Austin whiteknight: It's a pmc. Clearly pmc types have no need for attributes, because <cough><mumble><harrumph> 17:13
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smash hello everyone 17:13
tcurtis Austin: why do staticly-defined "new" methods not suffer the same problem?
Austin whiteknight: Or, to put it another way: get_attr_str() not implemented in class 'PMCProxy'
tcurtis: Magic. 17:14
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whiteknight Austin: ah, okay. I thought the metaclass would be stored as a property though, not an attribute? 17:14
Austin The process of creating the protoclass looks for a method? named PROTOOVERRIDES and that returns a list, which by default is [ new ] of methods that should be special cased. 17:15
whiteknight: That may be the case.
My eyes are so blurry at this point that anything is possible. Lemme check.
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Austin Okay, whiteknight, you're right. There's a property (not attribute) set on parrotclass -- 'metaclass' --> how, then $how has an attribute 'protoobject', then $protoobject.get_class should do it. Let me see if that works. 17:19
Why is it "getattribute" but "getprop" 17:20
Why is it "getattribute" but "get_class"
??
particle because the api has been ad-hoc designed 17:21
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particle iirc _ are preferred, but that came later, so they're not implemented everywhere 17:22
Austin Bah. We've got several thousand lines of testcase code to ensure that every c function has a useless header attached, but the part that people have to type has no consistency. 17:23
Austin wants some cheese to go with his whine...
Woo-hoo. Null PMC access. 17:24
Now we're making progress...
cotto_work points Austin at either trac or DEPRECATED.pod
Austin cotto_work?
purl rumour has it cotto_work is always at work
Austin botsnack
purl thanks Austin :)
cotto_work cotto_work is also cotto's employed alter ego 17:25
purl okay, cotto_work.
Austin And why is it getattribute $pmc, 'name', but it's getprop 'name', $pmc? 17:28
atrodo to make the php people feel at home?
Austin atrodo++ 17:29
Best answer yet.
cotto_work atrodo++
Austin Frailty, thy name is parrot. 17:30
cotto_work The question now is whether it's worth the churn to get those names consistent. 17:34
Austin TT#1727 17:38
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Austin cotto_work++ 17:38
whiteknight Strong +1 on #1727 17:39
cotto_work The deprecation notice will be simple. 17:41
Austin The problem is changing imcc, PAST, etc.
Oh, and what's the difference between $P0 = get_class $P1 and $P0 = class $P1 17:44
??
cotto_work Parrot_oo_get_class_str vs VTABLE_get_class
(no idea)
Austin Of course.
purl Indubitably.
Austin Well, opcodes are like handbags. It's good to have choices.. 17:45
whiteknight get_class looks up a class by key. class calls the VTABLE_get_class to get the class object of the given PMC
Austin Working on parrot is making me metrosexual...
Ah 17:46
So the $P1 in the get_class is really [ Foo ; Bar ] or something?
whiteknight class "Foo" == String. get_class "Foo" == Foo
right
Austin whiteknight++
whiteknight naming obviously leaves something to be desired
Austin Hell, that one almost makes sense. 17:47
I'm just coming at it from the wrong angle.
dalek TT #1727 created by Austin++: Rationalize get/set opcodes 17:48
TT #1727: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1727
Austin Stupid english language.. every operation winds up being named "get"
Woot! No method named 'can' to remove in class 'NameSpace'.
less $_PMC/class.pmc 17:49
oops
ww
tcurtis Austin: in this case, get_class's naming does kinda make sense. It's similar to the get_*global family of ops.
Austin tcurtis: Agreed. See above. 17:50
It's the fact that english maps "look up by name" to "get" and "look up attribute of this object" to "get". 17:51
tcurtis True. Maybe class should be classof to parallel typeof. Or even better, class_of. 17:52
Austin That's a simple, workable change. 17:53
(IMO, "get" should have been reserved to pmc/objects, and "find" or something used for the name lookups. But that would be a horrific change at this point.) 17:54
tcurtis Austin: well, if we are to change things, we might as well change them drastically all at once.
Austin Umm, no. 17:55
All at once, yes. Drastically is not something I'm really happy with.
whiteknight I like "classof" 17:56
Austin Me, too. 17:57
whiteknight but if we're standardizing on using underscores as Austin suggests, it would be "class_of"
(and "type_of")
Austin Also ok.
whiteknight but actually, doesn't typeof_p_p do the same thing?
Austin Heh 17:58
typeof_pp is $1 = vtable-get-class $2 17:59
whereas class_pp is $1 = vtable-get-class $2
Totally different.
tcurtis Austin: I should clarify. I don't think the negative effects of renaming any given opcode to make word-separation and abbreviation(or lack thereof) more consistent is significantly less than changing the name more drastically if we provide a good way of migrating(especially since we could probably provide a script to do it automatically). 18:00
Changing setattribute to set_attribute isn't much different in terms of migration difficulty than get_hll_global to find_hll_global.
Austin whiteknight: After all, 'class' has the :object_classes modifier, while typeof does not. See? 18:01
tcurtis: I understand. But I don't agree. I suspect that proposing the latter change (get* -> find*) will generate significant pushback, and I don't want the other bits (tt#1727) to be blocked because of that. 18:03
Rather, *suspect = fear 18:04
tcurtis Austin: I agree with that. I just think that if we can decide on a semantically, as well as syntactically, consistent naming convention, it wouldn't be significantly harder for people to migrate to. That's a significant if, though. 18:06
Austin +1
purl 1
ambs purl: shut up 18:07
purl ;-(
Austin whiteknight: What are the chances of getting some kind of parrot-interp level automatic pbc load?
whiteknight Austin: what do you mean by that? 18:10
shut up purl 18:11
purl ;-(
Austin Like, the interp pretends that the first opcode it sees is load_bytecode "parrot.pbc"
Totally ignoring Kakapo, I've had this idea for a while that a big percentage of the vtables and methods for the existing pmcs could be written in pir. 18:12
There's a few that obviously shouldn't - like the pcc stuff. But so much of the code is "check this, throw exception, else call that" 18:13
So if a boatload of the C could be replaced by pir, I think there would be a lot more information available for the performance guys, vis a vis what needed to be fast. Likewise, the lorito project. 18:14
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atrodo karma lorito 18:15
purl lorito has neutral karma
Austin lorito--
karma lorit0
purl lorit0 has neutral karma
Austin karma lorito
purl lorito has karma of -1
atrodo awww, poor little parrot 18:16
Austin Anyway, if such a thing was possible, it would need to be loaded pretty much before any command line processing took place. Hence my question. 18:17
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Coke Are there any command line irc clients that will interleave discussions? (show sends from multiple channels in the same window)? 19:09
szbalint bitchx 19:12
www.bitchx.com/ 19:13
dalek kudo: 9667975 | moritz++ | src/core/Any-list.pm:
fix typo, noticed by madsen++
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Coke szbalint: danke. I find the lack of docs a bit scary, but I'll check it out. 19:29
tommyd any Mac OS X related person around? It would be cool to get some help to fix trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/344
I'd love to fix that issue in the parrot port and finally submit my rakudo port... 19:30
Coke tommyd: the fix uses a post-install hack to fix the paths, that's been part of the macport, not 'make install'. 19:32
I suppose it could be moved to a custom OS X install task.
I suspect I'm the only person with a mac and appropriately shaped tuits atm. I'll take a look later this week. 19:33
tommyd Coke: unfortunately I don't think this is the proper fix for that
the problem is that parrot_config still echoes the wrong paths
and from what i can see parrot_config is a binary which spits out these paths hardcoded 19:34
Coke tommyd: ok. I don't see anything about parrot_config in the ticket.
perhaps you could update it with your latest intel?
tommyd intel?
purl intel is making a killing on that chip
PerlJam intelligence, knowledge 19:35
Coke intelligence. information about the current situation.
tommyd ah - sorry, I'm not a native speaker :)
PerlJam stuff you know that no one else does
Coke sokay. that's more of a military connotation.
but yah, if you can update the ticket, that'll help when I finally do have tuits.
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tommyd done 19:40
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Coke I would be interested to compare the dump of those values on linux. 19:43
or some other non-OS X platform.
szbalint: bitchx segfaults for me on os x. =-) 19:44
ah well.
tcurtis Coke: sounds like the perfect client for a Parrot dev, then. :)
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szbalint =) 19:46
tommyd Coke: I looked at the other files in the hints/ directory and nowhere else is build_dir related path mungling done 19:49
then, on the other hand, I don't know of many other distros who make use of installing to DESTDIR and linking to prefix
Coke as I recall, linux avoids this with rpath, but that didn't JustWork on osx. 19:51
tommyd but using `$lib_dir = $conf->data->get('build_dir') . "/blib/lib";` as path prefix for the install name sounds definitely wrong 19:52
PREFIX/blib/lib isn't even installed
Coke may just need to rip out code that was improperly added for osx 8 years ago.
particle rpath-- runpath++
tommyd so my original thought of replacing build_dir by prefix did not work either 19:53
Coke: you can expect most people on 10.5 and 10.6
Coke tommyd: I'm sorry, what?
was that a response or just a helpful note? 19:54
(yes, I'm not going to support 10.4 =-)
tommyd merely a note
right ;)
Coke I can't even support 10.5 at this point.
but I can duplicate your problem on 10.6, so...
tommyd whats bad with 10.5?
just that you can't test it?
I'm still on 10.5.8 19:55
Coke tommyd: I have no 10.5 to test on. 19:57
so I'll make this work on 10.6 and cross my fingers for you. =-)
tommyd thanks an awful lot for this ;)
Coke particle: aren't we using rpath for linux? 19:58
particle you're asking the wrong guy. all i know is, you can't override it, whereas with runpath, you can. 19:59
cotto_work seen khairul 20:13
purl khairul was last seen on #parrot 6 days, 13 hours, 28 minutes and 48 seconds ago, saying: cotto: sorry bout that. done. [Jul 27 06:44:32 2010]
cotto_work Coke: ping 20:35
Coke pong 20:37
cotto_work, pong, even.
in case you're lazy.
and cotto. 20:38
cotto_work I'm trying to figure out the best way to gauge the opinions of parrot hackers in order to decide about where we'll host our most official git repo and how source code browsing will work.
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cotto_work Can you think of something better than a message to parrot-dev with a request to not reply-all? 20:38
(er, not reply all when voting for an option, mainly to keep the noise down) 20:39
Coke any reason NOT to reply all? we only have about, what, 30 core committers atm?
cotto_work noise is all
Coke you could make a survey on parrot.org
but I don't think an open solicitation of feedback is in your best interest. =-) 20:40
is the gittrac bridge in place anywhere?
cotto_work you may be correct
trac.parrot.org/parrottest/browser
I'm not a fan, mainly because it's so slow. 20:41
Coke trac.parrot.org/parrottest/search?q=r20000
it's also broken?
(compare with: trac.parrot.org/parrot/changeset/20000) 20:42
or, more directly:
trac.parrot.org/parrottest/changeset/20000
cotto_work trac.parrot.org/parrottest/changese...32166511a/
particle cotto_work: do a poll on the website
coke++
cotto_work but I see what you mean
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Coke cotto_work: the WHOLE point of this was to keep the old revision numbers working. no? 20:43
cotto_work Yes
I'll get that working before setting up a poll.
Coke ah, thought the osuosl guys were doing that. ok. 20:44
cotto_work I think it'll have to be a custom extension.
Coke so, we only need the source code browser on trac.parrot.org so that we can say "what was r20000 in the old system?", as I understand it. for anything else, folks will have the entire git repository on their desktop. If they want a nice web based version, I vote github. 20:45
(but only because it's treated me well for perl6 & partcl. I'm not married to it.)
cotto_work Sure. trac.parrot.org/parrottest/changeset/2000 would just redirect to the right revision on github or something 20:46
s/test// 20:47
particle i like gitorious on our own parrot vm, rather than an external host
gitorious+cgit
Coke cgit-- at first look. 20:48
I don't mind selfhosting. doesn't really matter as far as git goes, as long as we have a decent admin interface. 20:49
particle git.openefs.org <== cgit
Coke yah. looks very ugly to me. 20:50
particle the css isn't perfect. that's my fault, not the product's.
well, it's not shiny, that's for sure
cotto_work I'll get the plugin working and post a poll. I can see the wisdom of coke's recommendation. 20:55
and happily, there's nothing that'll prevent any alternate hosts of people prefer them 20:56
tewk_ gitolite is really nice, it allows creation of new repos on the fly, and user specific repos too. 20:59
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cotto_work www.scribd.com/doc/35240506/Making-...en-Swallow - slide 24 sounds familar 21:53
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cotto_work dukeleto: ping 23:07
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Chandon I'm getting an error when I try to run examples/sdl/tetris. Is there something simple I need to do to get it to work? 23:11
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dalek parrot: 849e6a8 | (Jonathan "Duke" Leto)++ | (2 files):
Attempt to support nested pointy blocks
 23:22
parrot: 21df97c | (Jonathan "Duke" Leto)++ | t/sql/plperl6.sql:
Fix the pointy block test
parrot: 6a74227 | (Jonathan "Duke" Leto)++ | plparrot.c:
Clean up Nil/Parcel handling a bit
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kthakore NotFound: ping 23:41
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