Parrot 2.9.1 Released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Nopaste: nopaste.snit.ch:8001 | remove deprecations | volunteer for embedding or Lorito teams |
Set by moderator on 26 October 2010.
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chromatic There is some argument for the expedience of merging soon and cleaning up later, as long as that later is not a far-off later. 00:05
nwellnhof Break things early... 00:06
plobsing this component has suffered enough in the name of expedience. parameter types added because they were convenient, runtime framebuilder removed because it was blocking the new pcc, etc... 00:08
it's time to do it *right* 00:09
and after a lot of banging my head on it, I think I see the way to do it. 00:10
not to mention, the only thing this buys us is exploratory programming. You can get any arbitrary signature already for extensions. 00:11
chromatic How much work is it to do right? 00:14
plobsing unknown, but also unknown how much to do it wrong. 00:16
tracking the bug has proved hard for me. splitting things up bit by bit until it is obvious will find the bug.
chromatic Fair enough. 00:20
kid51 ->laundry
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dalek rrot: r49692 | plobsing++ | branches/gsoc_nci/lib/Parrot/Configure/Options/Conf/Shared.pm:
add without-libffi as legal option to configure
 05:18
dukeleto plobsing++ # hacking on gsoc_nci 05:19
plobsing: let me know if you need that branch smoked 05:20
plobsing not even close. I'm making progress though. 05:21
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bacek aloha, humans 07:49
cotto aloha, bacek 07:57
bacek cotto, hi 07:59
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dalek rrot: r49693 | plobsing++ | branches/gsoc_nci (53 files):
split NCI signature parser out from nci.pmc

also miscelaneous fixes to get fulltest mostly working (svn props mostly)		 08:07
cotto plobsing, do the packfile PMCs' get_pointer and set_pointer VTABLE functions get exercise anywhere? 08:40
or more precisely, what kind of code would exercise that? Would it only be C code that uses the packfile PMCs? 08:44
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dukeleto recently learned about the Vala language, which seems interesting: secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/...anguage%29 08:58
bacek cotto, "C code" doesn't use Packfile PMCs (yet?) 08:59
cotto Right. I'm wondering if that's the only way those VTABLE functions would be used.
bacek ah. Then yes. 09:00
set_pointer used during unpack
dukeleto people.gnome.org/~aruiz/videos/gtk-...t-vala.ogg <-- Writing a gtk app with vala 09:01
bacek get_pointer for pack
afk # dinner 09:02
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dalek rrot: r49694 | bacek++ | branches/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c:
seal root_objects back after processing and moving into particular
 09:09
cotto I finally get it. The Packfile PMC calls get_pointer on its PackfileDirectory PMC, which recursively calls get_pointer on all its segments, and when it's done a valid PackFile struct has been created. 09:27
so get_pointer is always used during pack and the pack/unpack METHODs seem to be unused 09:28
bacek cotto, .pack/.unpack used from PIR 09:29
just because .get_pointer/.set_pointer isn't available :)
cotto in make_hello_pbc, get_string is used
either way, it's essentially a different spelling
get_string and pack use get_pointer internally 09:30
bacek yes
cotto It's so nice to finally have a coherent understanding of how that whole mess works. 09:31
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cotto hio particle 09:41
bacek cotto, it's not so messy! I've implemented it two years ago :) 09:51
mikehh dalek is not picking up on trac wiki changes any more 10:01
anyway, I emailed the list re GCI and have worked on the wiki page, but need more ideas 10:03
cotto checks svn log 10:08
mikehh trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/GoogleC...n2010Tasks 10:11
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Tene I'll try to contribute to that tomorrow. 10:14
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whiteknight good morning, #parrot 13:00
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whiteknight Question: how big/complex should a Google Code-In project be? We don't want them to be too huge, but not too small either 13:04
One great project I can think about is for students who have had linear algebra to write up some tests for some under-tested operations 13:08
but how many tests to write that would constitute a complete "task" is a mystery
particle whiteknight: iirc there's a "getting things done" definition of a task that says if it takes you more than four hours to do something your "task" isn't granular enough, so split it up into smaller tasks. 13:16
i wonder if there exists a more complete set of rules for defining tasks 13:17
and if we can find it, and if it'll apply. 13:18
whiteknight That's not a bad definition. I just want to make sure the "tasks" that I define are suitable for the Google Code-In kids 13:23
particle how are the tasks defined, and marked as completed? 13:24
i'm not too knowledgeable about the code-in specifics. 13:25
but taskwarrior is a floss tool
taskwarrior.org/projects/show/taskwarrior 13:26
whiteknight There is pretty sparse information right now about how Google Code-In is structured and what the scope of a task should be
Students are expected to complete at least one, and at most 15, tasks during the summer
particle are they paid, per task? 13:27
whiteknight Tshirt for the first task, 100$ for every 3 tasks, up to 500$ total
particle i understand there's a competition to complete as many tasks as possible.
gotcha.
let me see if i can scare up a high-school cs instructor to ask about task sizing 13:28
when are task lists due? 13:29
whiteknight Friday 13:37
Actually, that's when our application is due. I don't know that all tasks need to be in by then
+ Tasks should be suitable for 13-18yr olds! They will not have the 13:40
attention span or speed of a frequent contributor.
+ Tasks should have time limits, and ideally, should not take more
than 2 ~ 3 weeks
+ Tasks should be classified as easy / medium / hard
+ Tasks should be very specific, rather than open-ended, so that
(that's from an FAQ I found)
particle ok then
i'd call them projects, at that length, but whatever. 13:41
for a linear algebra task, it should detail the types of success, failure, and error conditions to test for, and give an example for one function. 13:42
perhaps it should detail every condition to test for. 13:43
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whiteknight Well, I'm going to put together a list of tests and information about test coverage that I am interested in for different classes and methods 13:49
so it's a matter of asking how many tests, or how much coverage gets completed before we declare the particular task a success, and give the kid his prizeee
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dukeleto oooh, people are talking about tasks 15:18
supposedly, we should have tasks in each category
whiteknight okay, that's fine. What I can't figure out is how large a task should be 15:19
I would love to assign some PLA testing tasks (write tests, verify tasks, etc), but don't know how many tests constitutes an acceptable task
dukeleto whiteknight: a task can be as small as you want
whiteknight: just make something up
whiteknight: err on the side of smaller
whiteknight: students can complete as many tasks as they want 15:20
whiteknight: so it is in our interest to make them slightly too small, than too big
whiteknight: make sense?
whiteknight: assume that a "task" is about 10% of a GSoC proposal, or less
i think some translation tasks would be good, like "translate our website to spanish/german/chinese/whatever" 15:22
Task #2 on our wiki is a good start, but is WAY to ambiguous. It needs to list specific tests in specific files to convert 15:23
too ambiguous, even
mikehh++ # email to the list about GCI 15:27
Just so everybody knows, we are going to use that page for Parrot, Perl 6 and Perl 5 tasks, please spread the word!
I will try to in a bit.
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mikehh dukeleto: I am looking to break it down into multiple tasks, checking which of out tests can be converted, 1 - easy, 2 - medium, 3 - hard etc 15:44
dukeleto: not that easy a task :-} 15:45
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dukeleto hola 16:08
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whiteknight hello duke 16:35
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dukeleto what's new? 16:58
davidfetter hc/lambda 16:59
oh, wait. that's nu. nm.
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dukeleto What's Mu pussycat, whoa a whoa a whoa... 17:14
dukeleto is delirious from 8 days of conferencing
davidfetter heh 17:16
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nwellnhof Anyone knows how ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir gets built? 17:30
dukeleto nwellnhof: it is generated by nqp-rx 17:38
nwellnhof: is your question about how it is built or how it is generated?
whiteknight dukeleto: you can complain all day, but you're still a lucky sack. I can't go to any conferences because nobody wants to go to philadelphia 17:39
plus, I don't have enough vacation
dukeleto whiteknight: you are thinking backwards 17:42
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dukeleto whiteknight: and i am only complaing that my body can't take 8 days straight of conferencing, not the conferencing itself. 17:42
nwellnhof dukeleto: How can I regenerate it? 17:43
particle regenerate your body? 17:49
good question.... :P
nwellnhof: check the nqp-rx repo... github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/blob/master/README 17:51
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cotto ~~ 18:10
Tene whiteknight: I went to philadelphia for a SF con twice, about six years back. 18:19
nopaste "nwellnhof" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "Remove deprecated charset ops in nqp-rx" (26 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/24966 18:29
chromatic Six years ago? whiteknight was what, 11 years old?
whiteknight you think I'm 17?
my fake ID says I'm at least....about 34ish
atrodo if it's on the fake ID, it's got to be true 18:30
whiteknight and I'm from Hawaii, and my name is "McLovin"
nwellnhof Who can apply the patch above to nqp-rx?
dukeleto nwellnhof: pmichaud should review it first 18:31
nwellnhof: i can apply it, but I would want his OK first 18:32
nwellnhof: is there an easy-to-write test to verify that your removal of that code doesn't break things? 18:33
nwellnhof: he would probably be more open to the patch with a test case
nwellnhof dukeleto: I can have a look. 18:34
dukeleto nwellnhof: ask pmichaud first if he likes it. If he doesn't, a test may change his mind. 18:44
pmichaud: ping?
particle nwellnhof: nqp-rx is an external tool that parrot uses. submit your patch there, and the changes will be incorporated into parrot. 18:45
pmichaud dukeleto: pong 18:53
ouch, that patch looks.... bad.
Is there no longer a mechanism to transcode a string? 18:54
nwellnhof pmichaud: of course there is. have a look at trans_encoding in the lines below. 18:55
pmichaud oh
(those lines don't show up in the nopaste/patch)
okay, patch looks fine to me. 18:57
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pmichaud nwellnhof: want a commit bit so you can apply it directly? or should I just apply it? 19:00
nwellnhof pmichaud: please just apply it if you think it's ok. 19:02
pmichaud applying + testing 19:03
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dalek p-rx/master: d2d1682 | pmichaud++ | src/cheats/hll-compiler.pir:
From Nick Wellnhofer <wellnhofer@aevum.de>: Remove deprecated charset ops
 19:09
nwellnhof pmichaud++ 19:16
pmichaud: Can I simply copy the stage0 files from nqp-rx to parrot now?
pmichaud: I think the bootstrap files have to be updated in nqp-rx first. 19:18
whiteknight something something something the test suite. Something something something complete 19:24
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pmichaud I didn't update the bootstrap yet, no. 19:52
I can do that. 19:53
nwellnhof pmichaud: No need to rush it.
dalek p-rx/master: 56b142f | pmichaud++ | src/stage0/ (3 files):
Update bootstrap files.
 19:57
dukeleto leto.net/dukeleto.pl/2010/10/gsoc-2...ap-up.html 20:00
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NotFound Uh... someone has ever used String exists_keyed vtable? 20:21
Looks wrong.
return (INTVAL)((k >= 0 && k <= n) || (k < 0 && -k <= n));
<= ???
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nwellnhof Yes, the first <= looks wrong. 20:28
NotFound You want a task for students? Here is one: full coverage of the String PMC. 20:29
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cotto or any PMC with <x% coverage 20:31
NotFound Some may be too difficult for beginners. String should be easy, but maybe boring. 20:32
cotto It shouldn't be too much effort to figure out a list of recommended PMCs. 20:38
bacek Good morning, humans 20:39
cotto hio bacek
bacek hello cotto 20:40
cotto realizes that he's not living too far from Australian time
davidfetter cotto, well, depends what you mean by "not too far" 20:41
...and which part of .au
NotFound Less than 24 hours? 20:42
davidfetter SELECT now() - now() at time zone 'Australia/Sydney' AS "Sydney", now() - now() AT TIME ZONE 'Australia/Perth' AS "Perth"; 20:44
Sydney | Perth
-----------+-----------
-18:00:00 | -15:00:00
dalek rrot: r49695 | NotFound++ | trunk/src/pmc/string.pmc:
fix String exists_keyed for positive index
 20:48
cotto NotFound, no test? 20:56
NotFound cotto: working on it, I prefer one commit for each thing.
cotto gotcha 20:57
NotFound++ 20:58
dalek rrot: r49696 | nwellnhof++ | trunk/ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0 (3 files):
[ext] Update nqp-rx bootstrap files
 21:05
rrot: r49697 | nwellnhof++ | trunk/compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:
[pct] Remove deprecated charset ops in PCT::HLLCompiler
rrot: r49698 | NotFound++ | trunk/t/pmc/string.t:
tests for String exists_keyed vtable
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Eclesia hello 21:21
cotto hi Eclesia 21:22
Eclesia I just discover parrot, and have a few questions if I may ?
tadzik hello. Sure, go on
cotto you may have questions. You might even get answers. ;)
Eclesia about the license first. 21:23
cotto Artistic 2.0
Eclesia yes, but I don't know much about this one. what is special about it ?
why not usual gpl / lgpl or apache ? 21:24
cotto en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of...e_licenses
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cotto It's probably an artifact of Parrot's history with the Perl community, where Artistic 2.0 is popular 21:25
Eclesia looks like a lgpl
I also seen that it handles several langages, including java and .net 21:26
how far does it handle it ?
(for java)
(sorry if my english is not correct) 21:27
davidfetter generally uses BSDL or increasingly MITL
cotto there are a number of language implementations at varying stages of maturity
davidfetter finds the restrictive licenses full of BS
cotto trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Languages
davidfetter, there's a rich diversity of views on that topic
nwellnhof Eclesia: .net is not a language
davidfetter yep. i've got mine ;) 21:28
Eclesia C#, asp.net ...
davidfetter i'm not trying to evangelize them
Eclesia nice langage list :) 21:29
cotto We "just" need more stable implementations.
Eclesia I usualy work with Java and netbeans ide. you know if there is a way to integrate the parot compiler ? 21:31
tadzik I'm missing Pynie progress. It's supposed to be a bridge to PyPy these days, is it?
chromatic The other way around, I believe: Pynie can be a backend to PyPy. 21:32
Eclesia, we intend for people to embed Parrot in IDEs. Padre does it, but the embedding system is a work in progress. 21:33
tadzik hmm. So PyPy using Parrot, and Pynie being a full-featured Python3 compiler, yep?
cotto Eclesia, I don't know of any Java implementations on Parrot that I'd want to use other than to work on the implementations themselves.
chromatic tadzik, correct as per my understanding
NotFound I think there is no java compiler, but a project to interpret JVM bytecode with parrot, isn't it? 21:36
GeJ Bonjour everyone.
tadzik Bonjour 21:37
nwellnhof I don't think there's any bytecode translator for Parrot that's beyond the "Hello world" stage.
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dalek rrot: r49699 | nwellnhof++ | trunk/compilers/opsc/src/Ops/File.pm:
[opsc] Fix typo in Ops::File
 21:39
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cotto nwellnhof, nice fix. It's kinda funny that that one survived so long, though I can see why it did. 21:40
nwellnhof cotto: I wonder why it wasn't noticed during the 2.9.1 release. 21:41
chromatic Oh, don't ask about 2.9.1 and why global destruction didn't work. 21:43
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dalek rrot: r49700 | nwellnhof++ | branches/remove_charset_ops:
Remove charset ops
 21:55
rrot: r49701 | nwellnhof++ | branches/remove_charset_ops (8 files):
[ops] Remove charset ops
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bacek_at_work ~~ 22:20
cotto ~~
dalek rrot: r49702 | plobsing++ | branches/gsoc_nci (2 files):
remove private2 (raw) flag from nci-ffi.pmc
 22:29
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dukeleto plobsing++ # giving gsoc_nci some love 22:39
chromatic ping atrodo
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dalek rrot: r49703 | cotto++ | branches/opmap_aware_pmcs/src/pmc/packfile.pmc:
[pmc] alignment cleanup; no functional changes
 23:00
rrot: r49704 | cotto++ | branches/opmap_aware_pmcs/src/pmc/packfileopmap.pmc:
[pmc] implement size calculation in get_pointer; filling in the data is nyi
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