Parrot 2.9.1 Released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Nopaste: nopaste.snit.ch:8001 | remove deprecations | volunteer for embedding or Lorito teams |
Set by moderator on 26 October 2010.
cotto ok 00:00
00:00 hatseflats left
mikehh cotto: for the same reason I configure with --test and --configure_trace, it adds more things to test. 00:02
cotto: been doing that for a while now, probably should add some other things 00:04
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dukeleto is going to eat some food, then dig some heels into the git migration 00:56
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cotto dukeleto, how's the dry run going? 01:00
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dukeleto cotto: i am crafting the filter-branch command to use the new author map 01:26
dalek rrot: r49767 | jkeenan++ | branches/tt1841_osvers:
Creating branch to explore possibility of adding 'osvers' during
 01:28
cotto dukeleto, does that mean that the final switch won't happen tonight?
dukeleto right now, i am deciding between using git-svn clone with a local repo or git filter-branch 01:31
cotto: i am timing a clone with the new author map now 01:37
cotto: it just passed r500 01:38
cotto wheeee
dukeleto cotto: i am doing a new clone with the -A param, which lets you set an author map 01:39
cotto: it might be slower than filter-branch, but i would have to write a small bit of code for filter-branch that i can't seem to find already written currently
cotto dukeleto, good for you. Go for the lazy approach. 01:40
dukeleto and it blew up because "(no author)" was not in the author map 01:41
cotto who's the culprit? 01:42
dukeleto expected "feature". It blows up if it doesn't know what to do with an author. I acn re-run with a default author flag, methinks 01:44
cotto credit them to purl 01:45
dukeleto but nothing should have "no author", it thinks r1345, which happens to be REL_0_0_5, has no author. 01:48
dukeleto feels the ground shake as if a herd of yaks are on the move
cotto breaks out the electric yak shaver 01:49
dukeleto has the clone going again, this time rewriting things to a "nobody" person if there is no author 01:53
we are just about at r2000 01:55
cotto still thinks it should be "purl" 01:56
dalek rrot: r49768 | jkeenan++ | branches/tt1841_osvers/config (5 files):
First pass at determining 'osvers' during configuration.
 01:59
dukeleto we just passed r3000 02:01
at this rate we are looking at 4-5 hours 02:02
my machine is bogged down doing other things, though, so it is slower than normal
filter-branch is probably much faster
cotto: check this out : github.com/haarg/convert-git-dbic 02:03
DBIx::Class did some serious stuff 02:04
cotto: github.com/haarg/convert-git-dbic/b.../10.update <-- this means we can incrementally update while fiddling with authors
author maps, actually. We don't want to fiddle with the authors. 02:05
cotto win
dukeleto cotto: i would say we will have dry run data tonight, if things look good, we can plan for tomorrow 02:06
cotto Being the author of the trac plugin, I'd like to be around in case anything goes south. 02:07
whiteknight tomorrow? if you can forward the relevant info to me, I will email the group tomorrow morning when I get up
cotto I have an interview from 12:00 probably until 5-ish.
whiteknight so just let me know when to tell people it's happening 02:08
cotto and a thing I'd like to do in the evening, but that's not vital.
whiteknight but for now, I'm heading to bed
cotto whiteknight, I can send out the mail since I'll be up later.
do you mind? I'd like to give as much notice as possible. 02:09
whiteknight okay, that's fine too. email me with whatever you need me to do, and I'll do it when I get up
goodnight
cotto 'night
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dukeleto we are at r6000 02:29
cotto ETA seems to be "don't hold your breath" 02:33
dukeleto yep. 02:47
cotto What's the current plan? 02:53
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dalek rrot: r49769 | jkeenan++ | branches/gcc_defines/config/auto (2 files):
Implement attempt at probe for rtems based on suggestion by doughera++.
 03:17
rrot: r49770 | jkeenan++ | branches/gcc_defines/MANIFEST:
Update MANIFEST.
dukeleto we are at r11000 03:23
cotto dukeleto, what's the plan? Once you're done can you put that repo on github and catch later changes via incremental update? 03:24
dukeleto cotto: yes. The plan is to look at the output and see if it is sane. 03:26
cotto ok. Will there be a way to update existing clones or is the best approach to nuke and start over? 03:28
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dukeleto cotto: easiest and most probably best is to nuke and start over 03:29
cotto: otherwise, people will have huge disjoint history in their index, which will waste lots of space, which they then have to gc => pain in the ass 03:30
davidfetter ...it's the only way to be sure
lag :P
cotto dukeleto, can you draft a quick note to parrot-dev notifying that people will need to nuke their existing clones once the new repo is up? 03:34
dukeleto cotto: yeps 03:37
cotto dukeleto++ 03:38
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dukeleto we are at ~r21000, almost half way 05:41
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GeJ dukeleto: how are things going on your side? 08:04
aloha: clock?
aloha GeJ: GeJ: LAX: Tue, 01:04 PDT / CHI: Tue, 03:04 CDT / NYC: Tue, 04:04 EDT / UTC: Tue, 08:04 UTC / LON: Tue, 08:04 GMT / BER: Tue, 09:04 CET / TOK: Tue, 17:04 JST / SYD: Tue, 19:04 EST
GeJ probably asleep now. 08:05
cotto dukeleto, I'm off to bed. If can figure out a schedule, feel free to send out the message to parrot-dev, etc to give people as much notice as possible.
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moritz olabini.com/blog/2010/07/questionin...-generics/ "I’m increasingly coming to the conclusion that multi language VM’s benefit from being as dynamic as possible." 10:17
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whiteknight good morning, #parrot 12:41
dukeleto++ for all his work last night
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dukeleto this thing is still going. oy. 14:49
davidfetter nu? 14:53
dukeleto goes to the dentist 14:54
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whiteknight what thing is still going, the git import? 15:18
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cotto ~~ 15:46
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cotto whiteknight, that's probably what he was talking about 15:46
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cotto is glad that dukeleto can do an incremental update once the git import is done 15:50
It's Hofstadter's Law at work. 15:51
moritz, nice article 15:55
davidfetter contemplates hofstadter's law at play 15:56
cotto Don't contemplate it. You'll just make things take even longer. 15:59
atrodo hofstadter is overrated
cotto goes back to sleep. And by "sleep", I mean shower. 16:01
atrodo I wish i could go back to sleep. And by sleep, I mean sleep 16:03
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whiteknight I suspect it's dangerous to sleep in the shower 16:30
mikehh #join #parrotsketch 16:33
I think that was bad typing, but maybe a message to youse guys 16:34
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tadzik ~~ 16:41
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whiteknight msg dukeleto is it okay if I list you as a "resource" for the embedding API task force? I know you're probably too busy to get directly involved, but I want to make sure we have a list of users of the API that we can ask questions of 17:17
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
whiteknight is looking for additional members for the API task force, if anybody is interested
atrodo whiteknight> I have a vested interested in it 17:20
whiteknight atrodo: you want on? I'd be happy to list you
or, do you want to be listed as a resource?
we need both
people who embed parrot and can answer questions about their experiences, or who would be willing to review proposals and test changes are very very valuable 17:21
atrodo I can probably be on the team to some degree 17:27
whiteknight what project do you work on that embeds parrot?
atrodo trying to use parrot as the code generation of my compiler 17:28
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whiteknight so you're using the embedding API in parrot/embed.h? 17:43
is your project public? 17:44
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atrodo yes and yes 17:59
github.com/atrodo/draak
whiteknight methinks I've seen this before 18:01
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atrodo i think you have. I sent a few emails to parrot-dev about it 18:04
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tadzik whiteknight: how could one help with ProductManagementTeam? 18:27
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whiteknight tadzik: The big task right now is to run triage on the embedding API, and start prototyping an API that is really useful 18:31
tadzik: you want to get involved? 18:44
tadzik whiteknight: I'm not really embedding. What would I need to do? 18:46
whiteknight well, you don't need to be embedding yourself in order to know what a good interface looks like, and to get in touch with the people who are doing the embedding 18:47
or, to hunt for tickets involving the embed interface and evaluate them 18:48
tadzik the only embedding I ever used was embedding Lua in C
whiteknight ha. Everybody embeds Lua
tadzik and I'd love to embed Parrot Lua one day
whiteknight yes, that would be quite nice
tadzik and maybe one day run Awesome WM on Parrot Lua, so one could script it in any Parrot language 18:49
whiteknight :) 18:53
tadzik: what kinds of projects do you work on?
you on github or anywhere I can browse your handicrafts?
tadzik whiteknight: Perl 6 modules and module management, few Rakudo patches, also writing my xmpp client. I'm on github, as tadzik 18:54
(gtkabber sucks, beware. I'm rewriting it right now, with the experiences I got when I was writing it for the first time) 18:55
whiteknight ah nice. 18:57
I was looking at the possibility of embedding Parrot in a chat client, like Pidgin 19:08
I'm trying to embed it now into xchat, since I use that every day
tadzik hmm
since gtkabber is experimental as hell and no one uses it anyway, I could use Parrot under the hood, instead of Lua. In the rewrite I haven't got to the scripting part anyway. That would be some kind of research 19:09
whiteknight the important part is to get people using Parrot in an embedding context, even if only experimentally 19:10
because the more people use it, the more feedback we get and the better product we can create 19:11
tadzik Does embedding Parrot imply embedding Parrot languages?
At what stage embedding is today? 19:12
whiteknight you can create and use a parrot interpreter from inside another program. With the interpreter loaded, you can load the bytecode for a language compiler and call that 19:15
tadzik cool
tadzik gets more followers on GH, feels responsibility 19:16
whiteknight PL/Parrot does this, creates a Perl6 compiler inside Postgres, I think
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tadzik whiteknight: are there any docs on that lying around? 19:30
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whiteknight you'd have to talk to dukeleto 19:41
Tene_ You'd also do well to contact jhorwitz to talk about mod_parrot for apache 19:42
I've made a couple of commits there, but I never really understood it overall. 19:43
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Tene afaik he's not really active these days, but he's always been very responsive via email. 19:43
or AIM for that matter
tadzik msg dukeleto are there any docs for Parrot embedding lying around? 19:46
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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whiteknight nwellnhof++ 19:53
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dukeleto tadzik: yes, there are some in docs/embed.pod and docs/extend.pod 20:10
tadzik: PL/Parrot embeds a Parrot interpreter, and optionally, a Rakudo Perl 6 interpreter as well 20:11
whiteknight those docs should be viewed with suspicion 20:12
and a sense of sadness, since they are going to die soon
atrodo moans 20:14
dukeleto whiteknight: why are they going to die soon? 20:15
atrodo s/moans/mourns/
dukeleto whiteknight: i read through them to figure out how to write PL/Parrot
whiteknight dukeleto: because I'm hiding in the closet, and I have an axe
dukeleto whiteknight: they are incomplete, and out-dated in a few places, but still useful
whiteknight cue scary thunder sound. cue frightening music. The killer attacks his target. Exeunt stage left 20:16
dukeleto: fear not, they will be replaced with something better, when the time comes to kill and replace them
atrodo the cycle continues
whiteknight it is the circle of life 20:17
atrodo And that'll be in my head for the rest of the night 20:18
dukeleto There are some things i want to change about the embedding interface, such as: the requirement of giving a previously-created interp if you want to create more than one interp 20:20
Seems like a bad design. And makes security-minded people scared, like me.
mikehh Util: congrats on joining us grandparents
whiteknight damn, I'm still working on my first regular kid. I'm far away from grand kids 20:25
atrodo whiteknight> Pretty sure it just takes time 20:26
whiteknight dukeleto: make ticket, assign to me, etc
atrodo: ain't that the truth? I was a stupid young man, and made stupid young man decisions. I can't imagine my son will fall too far from the tree 20:27
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kid51 ps in 2 20:28
whiteknight and if my kid keeps smashing his face on things, I doubt he'll be too bright
but, I have to sign off and go home now. Later
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dukeleto the dry-run of converting the parrot repo again, with a proper authormap, is still running 20:42
it is hard to tell where it is, because it has to walk the full history of every branch that ever existed 20:43
So i have exactly zero clue about how long it will take. I should have used filter-branch. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle...
wagle toldya toldya 20:46
8) 20:50
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dukeleto wagle: i need the invocation for git filter-branch to use an author file 20:55
wagle has phone interview in t-minus 1 minute 20:58
GeJ Bonjour everyone. 20:59
dukeleto GeJ: howdy 21:02
wagle: good luck
GeJ: #ps is happening now, if you forgot
moderator Parrot 2.9.1 Released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Nopaste: nopaste.snit.ch:8001 | merge gsoc_nci | 21:04
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dukeleto has anybody smoked gsoc_nci recently? 21:28
mikehh: gsoc_nci is so close. Want to help me merge it today? 21:29
mikehh dukeleto: will do that after gc_ms2_sf
dukeleto mikehh++ 21:30
mikehh testin' that is
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mikehh chromatic: gc_ms2_sf - fulltest PASS - benchmakk test 90 wallclock secs ( 0.08 usr 0.01 sys + 86.02 cusr 3.66 csys = 89.77 CPU) vs 97 wallclock secs ( 0.07 usr 0.01 sys + 92.87 cusr 4.02 csys = 96.97 CPU) in trunk 22:04
chromatic What did you use for a benchmark? 22:05
mikehh benchmark test in fulltest 22:06
chromatic Thanks. 22:07
mikehh both run with g++ on Ubuntu 10.10 i386
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mikehh actually g++-4.5 (the default is g++/gcc 4.4 but I built perl 5.12.2 with gcc-4.5) 22:11
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donaldh dukeleto: a question about gsoc_nci 22:25
dukeleto donaldh: shoot. 22:26
donaldh dukeleto: is there anything still failing?
dukeleto: (I finally find some time for it this week) 22:27
dukeleto: I've installed libffi and built/tested parrot. all pass.
mikehh donaldh: she don't build with g++ and a bunch of codetest failures
chromatic Is the g++ problem missing casts? 22:29
mikehh looks like 22:30
donaldh k
dukeleto donaldh: we need help fixing codetests on the gsoc_nci branch, and getting it to build on g++ 22:31
donaldh what's the configure option for g++ ?
dukeleto donaldh: i think you need --cc, --ld and perhaps another. mikehh would know 22:32
mikehh donaldh: --cc=g++ --cxx=g++ --link=g++ --ld=g++
dukeleto mikehh++ 22:33
mikehh I am actually using g++-4.5 on Ubuntu 10.10 because g++ defaults to 4.4 but that is not important 22:34
donaldh is compiling with g++ on Cygwin and Ubuntu in a VM. 22:35
dukeleto are smoke reports from gcc on gsoc_nci still useful? 22:36
dukeleto boots his darwinpcc smoke machine
wagle fail! waugh, etc etc 22:37
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mikehh wagle: oh dear, what were you trying for? 22:38
dukeleto wagle: want to help with git migration stuff? 22:39
wagle: are you a filter-branch wizard? 22:40
wagle phone interview with google.. i wasnt addressing the edge cases he was interested in because (1) i kept changing my main cases (2) i try to design to not have edge cases, so i dont cleanly separate 22:41
dukeleto: i play one on tv 22:42
dukeleto: you are "just" using a translation table to change the commit authors?
kid51 with respect to 'make codetest' on gsoc_nci branch:
These are trickier than one might think. 22:43
Not just a case of trailing whitespace or tabs instead of spaces.
I discussed this a bit with plobsing over the weekend.
There's a pmc file he is creating, I believe in something called auto::libffi, which works differently from all other .pmc files. 22:44
He probes for libffi, and then copies one of two templates into position.
So this is unusual: All our other .pmc files are source code, listed in MANIFEST, which gets them subjected to all the codingstd tests. 22:45
But the .pmc file he ends up with is *not* source code, it's generated source code.
Hence, it should not be listed in the MANIFEST -- only its 2 templates should be -- and it should not be subjected to the codingstd tests -- only the templates should.
dukeleto wagle: yeah, just using an authormap that git-svn reads 22:46
kid51 But, currently, it *is* listed in the MANIFEST, which creates problems.
Peter is aware of this.
dukeleto wagle: i just need the filter-branch invocation to use that authormap
chromatic Subjecting templates to coding standards seems like a recipe for disaster.
kid51 He said he was unsatisfied with the design, but has other things to get to first on that branch.
wagle dukeleto: trying to setup a test now.. give me an hour or so.. (maybe 15 minutes)
dukeleto wagle: thanks. My current clone with git-svn will probably go another 5-10 hours :) 22:47
kid51 chromatic: If you look at them, you'll see that they are, in effect, two different versions of the .pmc file.
This creates a problem for other testers.
dukeleto kid51: one for libffi, and the other for without it?
kid51 If you don't have libffi on your machine, when you do 'svn up', you'll get an update which comes from a machine that *does* have libffi. 22:48
... meaning massive conflicts.
dukeleto: Yes
dukeleto kid51: generated code shouldn't be checked into the repo
kid51: so the generated PMC being committed to the repo is the bug 22:49
kid51 Some of these problems *might* go away with git, but the overall design is problematic ... which I think plobsing agrees.
chromatic Compile-time generation isn't a good approach either.
dukeleto kid51: git doesn't make ponies appear to fix bad design
as much as I would like that.
kid51 I also don't know how generating a .pmc will play with config/auto/pmcs.pm
dukeleto: At $job, we transitioned to git last week in my section. It doesn't pretty up the source code ;-) 22:50
dukeleto Are we under the impression that our codetests are not learned enough to deal with this code?
kid51 We could fix the codingstd/filenames.t failure in that branch easily.
But I think we should hear from plobsing more about what the status of the branch is.
dukeleto This code is important to get merged. Sooner the better. If our codetests need to be smarter to grok this branch, then maybe we need to TODO those codetests, and fix them in a branch. 22:51
kid51 dukeleto: True, but this is a new approach to our source code: .pmc files which are generated rather than part of the Parrot distro.
In this instance, the codingstd failures I was getting were the canaries in the coal mine. 22:52
chromatic What about the crypto PMCs?
dukeleto kid51: i don't think this is that new of a technique
kid51: parts of many pmc's are autogenerated, and this will probably happen more in the future 22:53
kid51: what status report do we need from plobsing again? To see if he has more fixes for it?
kid51 chromatic: What crypto PMCs? We took the crypto steps out of Configure.pl some time ago
chromatic We had crypto dynpmcs which were mostly generated.
kid51 First, take a look at the libffi config step and the two variations on the .pmc file (templates). 22:54
donaldh Whatever happened to compilers/ncigen ? 22:55
kid51 then, ask him if he intends to keep the "copy_if_diff" way of generating the .pmc.
dukeleto donaldh: i think that got put to pasture
donaldh: or rather, it flew up to the big parrot branch in the sky
donaldh doesn't have libffi 5 on Cygwin. Saves for another day.
kid51 I ran tests on gsoc_nci several times on both my machines, and every time I did 'svn up', I got a completely different .pmc file. 22:56
... because I was pulling something appropriate for a machine that did have libffi, which mine do not (currently) 22:57
dukeleto kid51: like i said. Committing generated PMC's is the bug.
kid51: that needs to get fixed before the branch is merged
kid51 Well, all I can say is that I think that was on Peter's list of things that still needed to be done. 22:58
dukeleto kid51: good to know. Thanks for working on gsoc_nci 22:59
in other news, PL/Parrot is close to becoming an official Fedora package
gerd++ for working on that. 23:00
donaldh Is there an emerging DBD definition? Is that happening in Rakudo? 23:03
donaldh is hacking on a Sqlite NCI binding. 23:04
jnthn___ donaldh: See MiniDBI, also see Zavolaj.
both linekd from modules.perl6.org
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donaldh jnthn: thanks 23:05
tadzik jnthn: you grew quite a tail there :)
wagle i found the solution, but it doesnt work 23:08
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wagle git filter-branch --env-filter 'export GIT_AUTHOR_EMAIL=foobar@baz.com' 23:13
dukeleto wagle: i will teach you to sweep, grasshopper 23:14
wagle: i need a commit-filter that uses the authormap, and sets all the proper variables for usernames that are in the authormap
wagle: your command filters history and changes every author to foobar@baz.com, which is not as useful ;) 23:15
wagle dark bash magick 23:17
hand me your rewriter, and i'll hand you the black bash magic to do it 23:18
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dukeleto wagle: i need the rewriter. I know how to use bash ;) 23:19
wagle hmm.. alternatively, see stackoverflow.com/questions/392332/...th-git-svn
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wagle if you knew bash, you wouldnt have made fun of my vital piece of info.. 8-p 23:20
dukeleto wagle: that stackoverflow link is useful tho 23:21
wagle: that has the core of what i need
wagle++
wagle same info, just expanded.. 23:22
git filter-branch --env-filter "$(perl-script-to-generate-huge-author-remap-statement remappings-file)" 23:23
dukeleto wagle: yeah, i needed to see a bit more detail 23:24
wagle: we have a script called tools/dev/mk_author_map.pl
wagle: it reads CREDITS and spits out an authormap
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wagle can you handle this, or is bash environment variable hacking biting you? 23:25
wagle is a programming language weenie, tranmogrification of programs is his bread and butter 23:26
dukeleto wagle: with that stackoverflow link, i think i am good. 23:27
wagle: i am still going to wait to see what the output of my current git-svn clone looks like
the parrot repo was quite a bit bigger before most of the language left the nest. 23:29
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wagle bets filter-branch would be done by now 23:48
for all branches.. 8) 23:49
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wagle oh.. unless your rewriter rewrites some A to B and B to C, etc 23:50
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