Parrot 3.8.0 "Magrathea" | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot | #parrotsketch meeting Tuesday 19:30 UTC
Set by moderator on 29 September 2011.
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whiteknight good evening, #parrot 00:16
cotto ~~ 00:17
whiteknight google-opensource.blogspot.com/2011...ou-in.html 00:19
dukeleto are we in?
cotto misread had was hopeful that they were unkilling google code. 00:20
search
whiteknight dukeleto: I don't know. I haven't applied or anything 00:21
dukeleto whiteknight: i know. it was rhetorical :) 00:22
i have noticed a decline in parrot hacking lately. chromatic and bacek have seemingly thrown in the towel 00:23
whiteknight lulls happen. In my experience, they are usually seasonal 00:24
fall is a hard time because school starts up again, etc
it is upsetting to see chromatic and bacek go, but we have a few bright new faces to fill the space
soh_cah_toa has noticed this as well 00:27
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soh_cah_toa to be honest, i've kinda lost my enthusiasm as well :\\ 00:28
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soh_cah_toa i don't blame chromatic either. i'm starting to understand his frustration myself 00:32
wknight8111 how so? 00:33
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: chromatic has been hacking on parrot since the very beginning. It should take you a few more years to get jaded ;) 00:35
soh_cah_toa well, he kinda felt that nobody was listening when he suggested new ideas and that everybody just kinda works on whatever they want and not what needs to be done
i couldn't relate at first during yapc but after a while, i see what he means
well, that should say something :\\
wknight8111 it does take time to get moving on any project. the debugger stuff, for instance, is not something to just jump into 00:37
cotto I suspec that part of the problem is figuring out Parrot's identity. 00:38
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soh_cah_toa well, how long is too long really? and besides, at the time i suggested it the topic of discussion was how parrot needed more user facing applications, something i thought podds would address that 00:39
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: podds ? PDDs ? 00:42
soh_cah_toa dukeleto: my crapping acronym for the new debug format
dukeleto: parrot opcode debug "something" 00:43
see, i even forget what the "s" is for ;)
cotto segment? 00:44
soh_cah_toa it might have been serialization. parrot opcode debug serialization format
dukeleto cotto: yes, parrot is still looking for an identity 00:45
cotto I'm thinking something along the lines of "social language platform", though that might be too ambiguous wrt "social". 00:46
(social == languages talk to eachother)
soh_cah_toa well, when they actually do perhaps 00:47
wknight8111 I think "social" is a word which is already overused 00:48
soh_cah_toa right now? "dependency for rakudo" 00:49
dukeleto cotto: i kind of like "social language platform" 00:51
wknight8111: yes, i agree, the word is overused.
cotto that's true. 00:52
soh_cah_toa ya know, we talk a lot about how language interop is parrot's biggest selling point but in reality, we really don't support it sadly 00:55
cotto that's part of the identity problem. 01:03
soh_cah_toa yeah. that brings me back to chromatic's issue. something like language interop certainly gets talked about but does it really get worked on? 01:08
dukeleto i wrote a paltry few interop tests. I care about it, but haven't had the time to continue to care about it. 01:09
soh_cah_toa we talk about language interop, we talk about windows support, we talk about 6model, we talk about user-facing applications but what actually gets worked on is something completely different 01:11
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: what gets worked on is what scratches peoples itches 01:12
soh_cah_toa i'll argue that it's b/c parrot's code base is just way too unmaintainable. it's a nightmare to work on. no one wants to touch it
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: well, evidently a few people do. But I hear what you are saying.
soh_cah_toa well, parrot's motto isn't "come scratch your itch"
;)
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: it might as well be
soh_cah_toa lol. that's so gross ;) 01:13
i mean, hacking on parrot is more of a chore than a pleasure. you've gotta be a super guru w/ years of experience like whiteknight to be able to make any sense of our code 01:16
which i guess is why whiteknight does most of the work ;) 01:18
the things that we need done just aren't attractive tasks to anybody which is why their "itches" are scratched elsewhere 01:19
case in point, imcc 01:20
my "itch" is to work on the debug and analysis aspect of pct languages but it's such a chore and frustration to even look at our code that i just lose my enthusiasm and forget about it :\\ 01:25
plobsing soh_cah_toa: who needs what done? why does imcc need doing? it does what it does fine for me. and it works great as a scapegoat for people who'd rather whine than JFDI. 01:27
soh_cah_toa the things we all talk about that needs to get done 01:28
plobsing then why isn't anyone doing anything? JFDI. 01:29
soh_cah_toa and there isn't anyone to jfdi
no one knows a thing about it. anyone who did has left
plobsing I would, but I get less friction at work, so I do that in stead. 01:31
soh_cah_toa well, there's a lot of "i would do it but..." said around here. i'm guilty of it myself
mostly "...but i don't know how" ;)
plobsing I'm also not one of the ones continuously chanting the mantras about things needing doing. 01:32
soh_cah_toa for me, that is
plobsing if you want something done... do it
soh_cah_toa i'm not pointing my finger at you
it's not what i want done
it's what we all say should be done
and agree "this is a goal" 01:33
plobsing who is we, what do we agree, and what is this goal? Parrot is like hearding cats. Embrace the chaos.
soh_cah_toa our goals 01:34
we're a team, man
roadmap goals, whatever
what we talk about during #ps
on parrot-dev 01:35
what i'm saying is what we talk about doing and what we actually do are two separate things 01:37
plobsing that's because the set of people talking and the set of people doing are not the same
soh_cah_toa well, we could all say why we think it is the way it is but the fact of the matter is "it is". it's a problem 01:38
is is is ;) 01:39
and needs to be addressed if parrot is to be successful 01:40
plobsing it is only a problem if you perceive it to be a problem. only if your perception of FOSS is an entitlement to other people to writing your code for you. 01:41
soh_cah_toa i'm not the first person so notice this though
s/so/to
it's not just me who feels this way 01:42
and no i don't think that ^
plobsing if you don't, then you realize you have to power to make of parrot whatever you want
s/to power/the power/
soh_cah_toa well, i'm not gonna go into metaphysics but i don't think i can make parrot "whatever i want" but that's not the issue 01:45
plobsing isn't it. I thought the issue was you, or "we", want parrot to be things it isn't at the moment. 01:46
soh_cah_toa no
plobsing ok, what's the issue then? 01:47
soh_cah_toa again, "what i'm saying is what we talk about doing and what we actually do are two separate things"
plobsing ah, that.
soh_cah_toa and i'm sorry but i'm not looking for a fight 01:48
plobsing I'm sorry if I'm being argumentative, but I'm tired of things being complained about but never acted on. 01:49
soh_cah_toa that's part of my point too
i mean, look at what you said and what i said. very few words are different
i personally don't have the power to fix an issue like this 01:50
it's a group thing
personally, when i don't work on roadmap goals it's b/c most of them are *far* out of my skill 01:51
plobsing roadmap goals are set at PDS by developpers that back the motion with a pledge to follow through 01:52
dukeleto plobsing++ 01:53
soh_cah_toa: the best we can do is do whatever each of us thinks is good for parrot
We have no budget, no project manager, no paying customers and no enforced focus.
So itches get scratched.
plobsing if they aren't being accomplished, that is the original backer's problem, not yours
dukeleto we haven't had much luck with roadmap items
it usually seems like kid51 corners a few people into saying "i promise i will work on this!" but then it never happens
soh_cah_toa +1 to that 01:54
dukeleto no disrespect to kid51, i personally think that he helps to enforce focus on the chaos
but that is basically what happens
soh_cah_toa dukeleto: no, that is exactly what i am saying
s/no/yes # poor grammar 01:55
dukeleto we can talk about stuff until the heat death of the universe. But what matters is making parrot do cool stuff and shipping it 01:57
soh_cah_toa again, i totally agree
dukeleto I, of course, lump Rakudo in with "cool stuff", but Rakudo is Rakudo and not quite Parrot. 01:58
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dalek tracwiki: v20 | fperrad++ | ListOfPlatforms 09:07
tracwiki: Oneiric
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ListOfP...ction=diff
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whiteknight good morning, #parrot 12:15
nine good morning whiteknight 12:17
whiteknight hello nine. How are you doing today? 12:18
nine Tired :) hard week, short night, but now it's weekend :)
you? 12:19
dalek gest-dynpmcs: 29a8ae5 | fperrad++ | / (2 files):
get_pointer not longer in Default PMC
 12:56
kudo/optimizer: e0cc816 | masak++ | NOMMAP.markdown:
[NOMMAP.markdown] typography fixes
 13:45
kudo/optimizer: 3fd3534 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
run mro.t
kudo/optimizer: 3e66bdf | Coke++ | t/spectest.data:
track failures, run fudges
kudo/optimizer: ce15be4 | Coke++ | t/spectest.data:
run fudged test
kudo/optimizer: 03f4606 | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
Merge branch 'nom' into optimizer
kudo/optimizer: 11c3ffd | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.pm:
Fix line numbers consistently being off-by-one in optimizer detected errors.
kudo/optimizer: 96234ca | jnthn++ | src/binder/ (2 files):
Fix optimizer bug that could bust junction auto-threading.
kudo/optimizer: d59f093 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.pm:
Twiddle an error message wording to be a bit more accurate, and make a test happy.
 13:50
kudo/nom: 03f4606 | jnthn++ | / (2 files):
Merge branch 'nom' into optimizer
 14:07
kudo/nom: 11c3ffd | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.pm:
Fix line numbers consistently being off-by-one in optimizer detected errors.
kudo/nom: 96234ca | jnthn++ | src/binder/ (2 files):
Fix optimizer bug that could bust junction auto-threading.
kudo/nom: d59f093 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Optimizer.pm:
Twiddle an error message wording to be a bit more accurate, and make a test happy.
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dalek rrot/kid51/testsets: 0bdf115 | jkeenan++ | lib/Parrot/Harness/ (2 files):
Create Parrot::Harness::TestSets as a location to hold all assignments to

Move certain list assignments out of Parrot::Harness::DefaultTests to this new package -- but no other changes so far.		 15:49
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dalek kudo/nom: 0d0b9d0 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
Handle the crazy case where the signature of a role ends up declaring a package. People come up with all sorts...
 22:39
kudo/nom: 06d230b | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Somehow managed to overlook anon scope modifier support for packages; here it is.
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dalek kudo/nom: ad9d89c | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/Mixins.pm:
Be sure not to lose boolification mode when mixing in.
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Coke wonders why much of the failing tests are now failing with CHECK FAILED 23:44
ww

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