Parrot 1.0 Released | parrot.org | 380 RTs left!
Set by moderator on 28 March 2009.
Infinoid uses a separate parrot tree so he can use the normal source control tools 00:00
LylePerl I offered Jarkko to fix the lists.cpan.org site which hasn't worked for ages. But he declined which was a bit upsetting :(
bacek_ good morning 00:01
LylePerl If it was part of TPF you could get a grant to do that kind of thing
Infinoid hmm, true
bacek_ Infinoid: it's easy to reproduce via pir.
jonathan LylePerl: We have a file build/PARROT_REVISION which tells the current version of Parrot we know that we can work with.
LylePerl: It's rare but has happened that later caused issues. 00:02
bacek_ $P0 = new 'Packfile'; $P0 = content; $S0 = $P0;
Infinoid At the same time, you guys are constantly pushing new features and bugs into parrot, so I doubt rakudo will be very far off of parrot HEAD for the next few months
bacek_ "content" is PBC from different architecture
Infinoid uh, bug *fixes*, I meant to say :)
LylePerl jonathan: when do you think Rakudo will default to the parrot that works for iis?
bacek_ then $S0 will contains wrong header.
Infinoid jonathan: that would be r37990 (hopefully) 00:03
oh, I see, so it just doesn't regenerate it
Does it cache the old binary string? Hmm.
LylePerl jonathan: Just wondering for these guides I'm writing... Whether I'll need to explain the IIS thing, or just leave it as it'll be updated in a few days anyway... 00:04
Infinoid Is it just the header, or all the segments as well?
jonathan LylePerl: We can up the rev number for that I think. 00:06
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LylePerl jonathan: Excellent! Looking forward to (hopefully) stirring up some more Perl 6 CGI interest :) 00:08
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jonathan OK, sleep time for me...night 00:10
Infinoid thanks, jonathan
Whiteknight: Any additional thoughts on the jit buffer stuff? I'd like a solid design spec before I move forward any more on the implementation... Santtu and I have (between us) written 3 patches with different strategies so far :)
It's proving difficult to avoid overengineering this to infinity. 00:13
Whiteknight Infinoid: Whatever you do will be fine, all the patches I've seen are sane 00:14
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Infinoid Ok, great, thanks 00:14
Whiteknight My personal preference would be to not tack on unrelated functionality to ManagedStruct, but that's just a preference
plus, I do understand the desire to reuse existing functionality where possible
Infinoid I think it's a little overboard, to be honest. It seems like I need to toss a couple new features onto the ever-hungry accretion disc of ManagedStruct just to track a simple pointer. :) 00:15
But hey, whatever works
purl "whatever works" is not always the best solution. or - but it's good enough
Infinoid Thanks, I'll rework a few minor things and check in the whole stack 00:17
LylePerl sleep for me too. night 00:21
Infinoid Thanks again, LylePerl
LylePerl No thank you!
(missing comma after no)
Infinoid :)
Testing oddball combinations we've never tried before is always appreciated.
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Infinoid allison++ # book 01:14
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GeJ allison++ # seconded 01:39
cotto allison++ #what they said 01:43
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Infinoid Well, let's see how badly this breaks things. 02:03
dalek rrot: r37991 | Infinoid++ | trunk (5 files):
[core] Extend the mem_free_executable() API to always take a "size" argument. (needed for munmap)
 02:05
rrot: r37992 | Infinoid++ | trunk/src/pmc/managedstruct.pmc:
[core] ManagedStruct needs ATTRs for free() and clone() function pointers.
rrot: r37993 | Infinoid++ | trunk (7 files):
[jit] Allocate JIT buffers with mmap on linux. Set things up so they're freed properly using munmap().
Infinoid (although things would probably work just fine if the PARROT_HAS_EXEC_PROTECT check was disabled, and that feature was always on.) 02:06
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rg are there any drawbacks to having it always on? 02:10
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Infinoid waves his hands at rg and makes vague claims of some as-yet-undiscovered machine out there which it might break on 02:12
It makes things slightly more complicated, I guess. *shrug* 02:13
rg my guess would be if it should always work and not have major drawbacks (like slower code), why maintain two codepaths? 02:14
Infinoid It was a 'minimal impact' sort of thing.
Are there any unix-like machines out there which don't have mmap?
rg i'd say not anymore 02:15
Infinoid Great. As long as mmap/munmap/mremap and the various constant defines I've used are always there, I suppose it should work everywhere
Infinoid doesn't have a lot of non-linux unix experience.
Infinoid waits for the 100% FAIL smolder reports to roll in 02:16
rg :)
hmm well since you still need the other codepath for windows, all you'd gain was extra testing on unix machines 02:19
or do you? 02:20
purl it has been said that do you is it compulsory? ;)
rg can't really tell from the diff 02:21
Infinoid the fix *should* only affect x86 processors with the NX bit, everyone else keeps using the heap as usual 02:22
Although the "clone" codepath would probably benefit everyone else, too. If we ever cloned JIT buffers. Which is crazy. 02:23
Sadly, I don't even have such a processor available here for testing. 02:24
rg hmm my parrot machine seems to have the NX feature, but i'm running it with 64bits, so no jit 02:25
Infinoid Yeah, same here.
Sad that the nx and lm bits seem to go hand in hand, huh? :)
Well, ok. Not that sad. 02:26
rg ok, it's getting late. time for bed. 02:29
Infinoid sleep well 02:30
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dalek rrot: r37994 | Infinoid++ | trunk/config/gen/platform/generic/memexec.c:
[core] Various improvements to generic/memexec.c.

  * Fix the return value for non-win32 realloc.
  * Improve the documentation slightly.		 02:44
kudo: 85ab143 | pmichaud++ | src/ops/perl6.ops:
Refactor is_uprop opcode a bit.
 02:58
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dalek kudo: a2bb078 | pmichaud++ | :
Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
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dalek kudo: f545fee | pmichaud++ | src/ops/perl6.ops:
Add "Bidi" and "In" support to unicode character properties.
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dalek kudo: 4ae560c | pmichaud++ | t/spectest.data:
Update spectest.data with properties.t tests.
 03:40
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jdv79 just skimmed the parrodev book. what i noticed was that there are 1200 ops?! and no mention of GC. 04:20
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cotto jdv79, there are currently 1249 ops, although a large number of them are variations based on argument types. 05:09
Infinoid cotto: Is there a ticket open for these nci-without-jit failures? I've got some free time to look at it now, but I don't know if any work's already been done on it yet 05:23
pmichaud I'm working on travel arrangements for YAPC::NA ... I know there's a Parrot workshop the days before YAPC::NA ... is there a planned hackathon session after YAPC::NA ? 05:26
(specifically for parrot)
(or rakudo)
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cotto Infinoid, I actually just fixed it and am making sure nothing new breaks. 05:28
It's a very simple fix. 05:29
Infinoid Awesome. Staring at nci.c was bending my brain in scary ways. 05:30
cotto Urg. Me too.
pmichaud allison: ping 05:31
allison pmichaud: pong 05:32
pmichaud scheduling questions, if you have a moment. (more)
allison sure
pmichaud (1) do you know anything about hacking activities or meetings post YAPC::NA ? 05:33
(I know we have the workshop before YAPC... wondering when to book my return flight.)
allison I know that we usually have them, and I know that I plan to stay an extra few days after YAPC
pmichaud okay.
I will plan to stay at least one day after YAPC
allison I don't know details of where we'll be hosted yet
pmichaud (I can get phenominal airfares if I book now. $200 round trip) 05:34
question #2 (last one)
the oscon schedule shows that the last event is at 11:45 on Friday... is that really the last event, or are there likely to be keynotes friday afternoon (as there have been in years' past?)
(it affects my return flight.) 05:35
allison there are keynotes after 11:45am
we'll be all wrapped up with everything by 2pm
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pmichaud well, with southwest I can get really low fares but last flight from SJC is 2:45p, so that might be cutting it close. 05:36
allison you'd likely be fine leaving at 1:30
(there's food in there after the final keynote)
pmichaud and keynotes would likely be done around 1:30ish? 05:37
I've always found the friday keynotes to be particularly good. :-)
allison aye, they're planned for 12:30 to 1:30 05:38
pmichaud okay, that tells me pretty much what i need to know. Many many thanks.
dalek rrot: r37995 | cotto++ | trunk/tools/build/nativecall.pl:
[NCI] fix NCI sub generation on non-jitcapable Parrots
Infinoid ooh, SJC is within driving distance for me. Maybe I should actually go to one of those 05:39
pmichaud Infinoid: if you haven't been to oscon before, it's generally quite awesome. 05:40
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pmichaud It's one of those conferences that is frustrating because there are so many good sessions that you have to pick-and-choose (and inevitably miss some you'd really like to see). 05:41
Infinoid Sounds great, I'll see about getting myself there 05:42
wow, conferences are pricey. 05:52
pmichaud oscon is, yes. 05:53
yapc's are not nearly as pricey.
Infinoid cotto++, thanks! that fixed 3 test files here 06:02
Now my only remaining failure is somehow related to my version of libicu... hope to fix that tomorrow. 06:03
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dalek kudo: e05aff7 | pmichaud++ | docs/spectest-progress.csv:
spectest-progress.csv update: 354 files, 10224 passing, 0 failing
 06:18
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cotto Infinoid, great! It's always nice when someone else fixes something you thought you'd have to. 06:26
GeJ pmichaud: the ~2K bump in the passing tests number is from the unicode properties only?
moritz GeJ: not only; jonathan also implemented typed arrays and hashes 06:29
though the properties account for a much larger number of tests 06:30
pmichaud yes -- while reviewing spectests last week I noticed a test file with ~1800 tests that were waiting on unicode support. So I added it. 06:31
GeJ nice additions. :) 06:32
pmichaud time for sleep here -- back in a few hrs 06:33
GeJ good night
moritz I just skimmed over the parrot_dev_guide.pdf that allison++ linked to on parrot-dev... 06:46
I particuarly like how it assumes that every linux has apt-get available ;-) 06:47
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allison moritz: aye, it's entirely unedited at this point, just a formatted dump of the text from the repository, some parts are quite rough 06:58
moritz but it looks so much more professional in book form ;-) 07:00
GeJ allison: if it's not too much to ask, would it be possible for the next 'preview' to have larger fonts and smaller margins ? 07:04
Other than that, terrific job. Thanks. 07:05
allison GeJ: it's set up for print format, so no, but we can eventually produce a different PDF for online use. 07:06
GeJ: (those oddly large margins make the printed space fit exactly within a 6x9 book page) 07:07
moritz: yeah, isn't it odd what a little formatting does psychologically? 07:08
moritz allison: that's why I write nearly everything in TeX - it does the formatting better than I could ;-) 07:12
allison Pod-to-TeX also works nicely (that's what this is) 07:14
cotto allison, could I get your input on trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/452 (avoiding unnecessary MULTIs)? 07:17
The patch is simple enough, but I'd like to make sure it's correct before I write a bunch more like it.
allison moritz: though I spent a huge amount of time getting the .sty files just right (but that was for the mod_perl2 book, so can just reuse them)
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allison cotto: looking now... 07:19
cotto: answer added to ticket 07:23
cotto Thanks. 07:24
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dalek kudo: 43b9e57 | jnthn++ | src/classes/Routine.pir:
First cut of wrap and unwrap.
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dalek kudo: 508a18c | (Moritz Lenz)++ | t/spectest.data:
fix typo in t/spectest.data, moritz--
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dalek kudo: a36c3b2 | jnthn++ | src/classes/Routine.pir:
Some tweaks to the first cut of wrap; assign could get things confused, plus also need to track relations of Parrot and Rakudo level subs.
 13:38
kudo: 6bcccd6 | jnthn++ | src/builtins/control.pir:
Implement callwith for the wrapped sub case.
kudo: 8abc537 | jnthn++ | t/spectest.data:
Add wrap.t to spectest.data.
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kudo: 4561d2f | jnthn++ | :
Merge branch 'master' of git@github.com:rakudo/rakudo
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dalek kudo: 531fe43 | jnthn++ | src/builtins/control.pir:
Add a stubby callsame that works for argumnetless case. Not figured out how to handle getting the arguments so well just yet, but this is probably enough to pass some of wrapping.t which only needs that.
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dalek kudo: 04f63fc | jnthn++ | src/classes/Routine.pir:
Make sure accessing the non-existent return value of unwrap doesn't cause Null PMC Access by handing back Nil.
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dalek kudo: 4866942 | jnthn++ | src/classes/Code.pir:
Implement .callwith method for Code objects.
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DietCoke (quiet today) 16:35
particle- now that dietcoke is gone, we can start chatting again. 16:38
Coke jonathan: ping.
jonathan: { if (foo) foo=NULL } is better written as "foo=NULL", innit? 16:39
(r37980)
particle- otherwise you end up with null or zero 16:40
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jonathan Coke: Heh. Rather pointless chekc, yes. 16:44
Coke: I was originally going to copy to a new struct then decided against...
particle- (code reviews)++
jonathan Indeed 16:45
Coke meh. just a mindless check. I seem to spend half my day looking at commits.
(for $work too)
particle- that's a nice gig 16:48
i'm writing php and c 16:49
and nobody looks at my code.
jonathan spent some time recetnly doing VBScript, and nobody looked at his code either
particle- ho, and sieve scripts.
dalek rrot: r37996 | jonathan++ | trunk/src/pmc/sub.pmc:
[core] Remove pointless condition spotted by Coke++.
Coke works in cfmx, so looking at C is actually refreshing. =-)
jonathan Me looking at the previous developer's code on the other hand, now that was depressing.
Coke I always find cfmx code I take over to be particuarly heinous. 16:50
I wonder occasionally if php maintenance devs have the same issue.
jonathan Well, depends who wrote the code I guess.
On one codebase I've worked on recently, some of it wasn't so bad, some of it was pretty awful. 16:51
particle- i'm just glad that php has eval
it's made writing code so much easier, because i can generate the boilerplate and eval it
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Coke Ugh. I try to rip out eval wherever possible. =-) 16:52
I find that it's most commonly used in CFMX by people who don't get hash syntax. =-)
instead of struct[key] you get something like (perl syntax) eval "struct.$key" 16:53
jonathan
.oO( I hope they validated $key! )
 16:54
confound jonathan: valiwhat? 16:56
Coke jonathan: no. 16:57
I found that pretty universally in javascript/cfmx here.
pmichaud $key validation: if $key != $key { die "$key is invalid." }
lunch, $otherjob, then blogging and hackathon writing 16:59
bbl
jonathan Coke: I can haz arbitary code execution? ;-) 17:00
Coke the code base here is an amazing example of doing things wrong. =-) 17:03
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dalek a: 4b2e14e | (Francois Perrad)++ | src/ (2 files):
Now, works with Parrot r37968 (PCT/POST refactor)
 17:08
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dalek kudo: 4cc08e8 | jnthn++ | src/parser/actions.pm:
Add multiple prefix constraint check, as done by STD.pm.
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dalek rrot: r37997 | cotto++ | trunk/src (2 files):
[JIT] remove undocumented dependency of jit code on PMC internals, fixing TT #365

  Whiteknight++ for the review		 17:59
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dalek kudo: b512bdc | jnthn++ | src/classes/Associative.pir:
%h<> should return everything in the hash, like @a[] returns everything in the array.
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kudo: 9854f25 | jnthn++ | src/parser/actions.pm:
Enforce a single prefix type constraint on parameters.
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dalek kudo: 07ed756 | jnthn++ | src/classes/Range.pir:
Implement postcircumfix:[ ] in Range. It doesn't know about infinite ranges, but not much else does yet either.
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dalek rrot: r37998 | cotto++ | trunk/src/pmc (2 files):
[PMC] use VTABLE w/switch instead of MULTI for Integer's is_equal
 19:21
Coke is that a behavior switch that we need a dep notice for (does one already exist/) 19:22
there it is. n'mind. 19:23
msg chromatic (modern perl, last post s/precide/precise/) 19:28
purl Message for chromatic stored.
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bacek good morning 21:19
Infinoid: around? 21:22
Infinoid hi bacek 21:23
happy ... *thinks about it* ... Friday?
bacek Infinoid: hi. Yeah, Good Friday :)
I've got question about PackFiles. Currently PackFile works as factory for Segments. And it's very hard to represent in PMCs because of memory management. 21:25
Any ideas/suggestions?
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bacek need more coffee 21:25
Infinoid well, eventually it would be nice to move all of packfile.c into the pmcs and use pmc attrs instead of just wrapping the packfile structs 21:26
the wrapping stuff is just stage 1. and the readonly stuff I've written is stage 1 of stage 1 :)
where are you having difficulty representing them in pmcs, though? there's still a 1:1 mapping between c structs and pmc objects 21:27
I suppose the initialization part is a bit weird.
bacek For example PackFile_Segment_new followed by PackFile_Segment_destroy will just crash. 21:28
Because _destroy uses "virtual functions" from PackFile
Infinoid ah, so the underlying packfile api itself is brittle? 21:29
bacek Infinoid: it's good for "pure C" :) 21:30
Infinoid right, but it makes it difficult to make the pmcs bulletproof
bacek indeed.
All possible "bad things" can happen. 21:31
Like adding segment to directory twice will lead to segfault.
Replacing segment in directory can lead to segfault or leak. 21:32
etc, etc, etc...
Infinoid hmm. do you think it'd be easier to put a bunch of management code in the pmc frontend, or to just hold off on creating the underlying structures until the last possible moment?
bacek Infinoid: my thought that creating underlying PackFile just on "Packfile.pack" is best option. 21:33
And create PMCs on "unpack"
Infinoid Can we do that without having PackfilePacked vs PackfileUnpacked objects to keep everything separate? 21:34
bacek Only one disadvantage - we can't create-and-execute on fly.
Yes, we can. 21:35
Packfile.pack will create "C" objects, serialize and destroy them in single call.
Infinoid ok
hah, so you just won't keep them around, ok 21:36
bacek "PackfileUnpacked" is what current PMCs became.
E.g. "PackfileDirectory" is just Hash.
We can even remove it totally. 21:37
Infinoid as I understood it from jonathan, the implementation path was to wrap the packfile stuff, migrate all the callers onto the pmc-based api, and then start moving the underlying logic into the pmcs directly
if you want to do things in a different order, that's ok. but be careful, there's a *lot* of work involved in this stuff
bacek It's hard to wrap in bullet-proof manner.
bacek summon jonathan 21:38
Infinoid the issue you're raising is that there are too many corner cases that can crash and no way we'll ever catch them all, right?
bacek Who currently creates packfiles? IMCC and PIRC? 21:39
Infinoid: yes.
Infinoid the files, or the objects?
bacek both
Infinoid so far, the only thing I know of creating pmc objects are the tests 21:40
bacek :)
particle- the calling conventions create more pmcs than the tests :) 21:41
Infinoid Packfile PMCs?
particle- er, i hope not.
guess i picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue.
Infinoid never stop, that's my motto 21:42
weird. When I did an "ack PackFile_new", I got a hit from tools/dev/pbc_to_exe.pir, but that's really C packfiles, not PIR ones 21:45
bacek So, if I'll implement PMCs which can create but not hold underlying "C" objects will solve almost all corner cases.
Andy such is the limittion of going off file extensions.
Infinoid I wasn't blaming ack. It's just kinda confusing to me to see pir generating c 21:46
particle- welcome to the future. your new id is on the dresser floating in your bedroom. 21:47
bacek And will reduce size of code (just because we can reuse other PMCs). E.g. PackfileSegment is just ResizeableIntegerArray. Directory and ConstTable are Hashes.
Infinoid if you can do that, it will then be a short step to getting rid of the underlying c stuff altogether 21:48
bacek Infinoid: I can do it. It's actually much easy than properly wrap all stuff :) 21:49
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dalek kudo: 5658a57 | jnthn++ | build/ (2 files):
Implement * mathop val and val mathop * generating blocks. Left out infix:<-> for now.
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dalek kudo: 4a95115 | jnthn++ | perl6.pir:
Oops, forgot this file too. Epic git usage fail...
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bacek Infinoid: still around? 22:17
"Packfile is Hash" or "Packfile has Hash"? (In terms of Directory handling) 22:18
Infinoid I kinda figured Packfile itself would just have some ATTRs for the directory and version and uuid and all of that stuff 22:19
PackfileDirectory, on the other hand, should probably be "extends Hash" 22:20
bacek We probably can get rid of Directory.
Infinoid ok, ok
interesting idea.
bacek Because Directory is just storage representation.
Infinoid yeah, there's no real point in separating those objects
bacek I'll implement Packfile as "has Hash". We can change it in future. 22:21
Infinoid ok. Note that that change of object layout will require an update to the API described in pdd13 (and probably be a good idea to get jonathan to sign off on it) 22:22
bacek Infinoid: I'm not going to change layout :) 22:24
And will create exactly same PBC as described in pdd13.
Infinoid and think about getting rid of Directory later? :)
cool.
bacek But PMCs API will be slightly different
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Infinoid yes, pdd13 specifies the PMC API as well 22:25
one problem you'll run into: the Packfile PMC uses the hash API to allow access to the header fields... the exact same vtable functions as Directory uses to allow access to the segments 22:26
so if you merge them, you'll have to special-case certain key names for the header fields
bacek pdd13 describes read-only access to binary PBC...
Infinoid pdd13 also specifies the PMC API, under the heading "Packfile PMCs 22:27
"
bacek (I was wrong)
Infinoid So yeah, if you want to change the PMC API, you'll have to update the pdd too. 22:28
This is probably a good time for that, as the pdd already needs updating for some annotations stuff (which is on jonathan++'s list)
jonathan notices the list has started to emerge from the pile of stuff under his bed and quickly stuffs it back under 22:32
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bacek looking under jonathan's bed - IT'S A LOT OF TREASURES HERE!!! 22:33
ok, there is 4 days long weekend. I'll try to finish packfile pmcs implementation over it. 22:36
afk # family stuff
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dalek kudo: f9a2236 | jnthn++ | src/parser/ (2 files):
Fix parsing of whatever.
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dalek kudo: 70fc009 | jnthn++ | src/classes/ClassHOW.pir:
Implement *.foo generating the closure { $^wob.foo }.
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bacek jonathan: ping 23:54
jonathan bacek: no route to host
;-)
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bacek :) 23:54
jonathan bacek: What're you wanting? :-) 23:55
bacek I'm going to rename Packfile PMC attributes to be in sync with physical packfile header
any objections?
e.g. version_major -> major, etc 23:56
jonathan OK, two things
purl two things are giving you a "before" keyword
jonathan consistency for the win
However, I suspect I might have thought about the external names more than the ones in the code. ;-) 23:57
That is, maybe renaming the struct describing the header to match the external interface would be saner.
bacek ok. Let's rename header fields :) 23:58
next question: we have Packfile.uuid_length attribute. Do we really need it?
jonathan in the header? Or externally visible? 23:59
bacek in PMC.
And in header of cause.
(We need it in header :)
jonathan I think that one does not need to be externally exposed.
Yeah, in the header I think we gotta have that.
bacek strikes another line in pdd13

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