Parrot 1.3.0 "Andean Swift" released | parrot.org | Parrot VM Workshop, Pittsburgh, June 20-21
Set by moderator on 16 June 2009.
Tene r 00:00
Infinoid WYSIWYG--
WYGIWYG++
Tene rakudo: say [~] gather take 'Infinoid++ ' for 1..5 00:01
polyglotbot OUTPUT[Infinoid++ Infinoid++ Infinoid++ Infinoid++ Infinoid++ ␤]
Tene finally goes home 00:02
Infinoid take, huh 00:04
Infinoid wishes there was a "perl6doc -f" command 00:05
Whiteknight pmichaud: ping
Tene adds perl6doc to his task list.
dalek rrot: r39662 | whiteknight++ | branches/pdd09gc_part1:
removing old branch that's woefully outdated and unusable
rrot: r39663 | whiteknight++ | branches/RELEASE_1_3_0:
removing release-only branch
Whiteknight msg pmichaud: is the isafast branch still useful and worth keeping? 00:06
purl Message for pmichaud stored.
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cotto Whiteknight, should src/pmc/stringhandle.pmc +223 be checking the return value? 00:12
It's producing a warning.
Whiteknight what is checking what return value? 00:13
Parrot_io_open? 00:14
cotto ./src/pmc/stringhandle.pmc:223: warning: ignoring return value of ‘Parrot_io_open’, declared with attribute warn_unused_result 00:15
Whiteknight ah, okay
I actually just created a branch to clean up some IO stuff, so I'll fix that
dalek rrot: r39664 | whiteknight++ | branches/io_cleanups:
creating a branch to start cleaning up IO before YAPC
Whiteknight Infinoid: Feel free to dig in on this one, I want to get sockets and pipes fixed up 00:17
dalek rrot: r39665 | whiteknight++ | branches/io_cleanups/src/io/api.c:
[io_cleanups] remove WARN_UNUSED_RESULT from Parrot_io_open. the return value is not necessary for all IO PMC types. cotto++
 00:22
Infinoid Ok, you won't be getting any polyglot lolcode support today 00:24
Can't open perl script "/usr/local/lib/parrot/1.3.0-devel/tools/dev/gen_makefile.pl": No such file or directory
Just like most other HLLs.
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dalek rrot: r39666 | cotto++ | trunk/lib/Parrot/Pmc2c/PMCEmitter.pm:
[pmc2c] make get_vtable etc only use functions from a PMC and its immediate parent
 00:39
rrot: r39667 | whiteknight++ | branches/io_cleanups/src/io/api.c:
[io_cleanups] remove some unnecessary debugging assertions, and allow Parrot_io_open to create an HLLmapped PMC instead of just a vanilla FileHandle (not really supported currently)
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dalek rrot: r39668 | whiteknight++ | branches/io_cleanups (4 files):
[io_cleanups] remove unused FileHandle ATTR file_size.
 00:59
nopaste "kid51" at 70.85.31.226 pasted "Why is Rakudo not building for me on Linux/i386?" (90 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/16967 01:02
dalek rrot: r39669 | whiteknight++ | branches/io_cleanups/src/pmc/filehandle.pmc:
[io_rewiring] remove unused process_id ATTR from FileHandle. It's not needed since FileHandle isn't Pipe anymore
 01:03
Whiteknight if we can get all non-inheritable ATTRs out of FileHandle, we can make it properly subclassable from PIR 01:06
and that's a major goal of mine
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Whiteknight Infinoid: How do we do pipes now? 01:39
nevermind, I just TODO'd the tests 01:42
goodnight
dalek rrot: r39670 | whiteknight++ | branches/io_cleanups (2 files):
[io_cleanups] change some things in src/io/filehandle.c to use the GETATTR and SETATTR macros for subclassability. Also, fudge some tests that were relying on FileHandle=Pipe behavior
 01:43
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Coke wtf. I have an 'hll_map' getting invoked while in .HLL 'Tcl'; I verify it in the sub it gets added in, and it's there. If I then autobox something in that HLL, it's not working. (switching from "maps" in a PMC file to invoking 'hll_map' on a class) 02:23
opbots, ping
clunker3 Pong!
Coke opbots, names 02:24
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pmichaud message kid51 Sent you email -- your error looks the same as RT #64930. Try adding the --gen-parrot-option=--optimize option (see the ticket or the bottom of rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo for more details) 04:02
purl Message for kid51 stored.
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mikehh pre/post config, smolder, fulltest ALL PASS at r39670 - Ubuntu 9.04 i386 05:02
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Infinoid pmichaud++ # rakudo #18 09:19
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dalek nie: r72 | isop44++ | trunk/ (3 files):
Implement is [not] operator, without chaining
 12:01
nie: r73 | isop44++ | trunk/ (2 files):
Implement type builtin function
 12:06
nie: r74 | isop44++ | trunk/Lib/test/parrot/builtins.py:
Remove xfail annotation for repr test - it passes now! :)
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Coke ... is .HLL now case sensitive? 12:58
seems to be. wtf. 12:59
perhaps in conjunction with .hll_map()
tene, you around? 13:01
dalek nie: r75 | isop44++ | trunk/ (8 files):
Add simple str class and some tests
 13:08
nie: r76 | isop44++ | trunk/Lib/test/parrot/literals.py:
Mark commented-out tests with xfail
 13:13
nie: r77 | isop44++ | trunk/ (4 files):
Rename Pynie;list to just list
 13:14
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Tene Coke: yes, it's case-sensitive, kinda 13:22
Coke: it changes sensitivity in different places, which is now considered a bug, so the only sane solytion right now is to only use all lowercase 13:23
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Coke Tene: is there a ticket for that? (If not, can you make sure one gets opened?) 13:42
I would just say "let's never mangle the case." 13:43
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Tene Yes, that's the ideal situation. 13:44
Coke it just cost me god knows how much time fixing bugs, since it mattered to .hll_map() 13:45
s/fixing/tripping over/
(but not to pmclass's hll) 13:46
Tene: let's get a deprecation notice in for 1.4 if we can.
Tene Me too, a while back. I complained to allison, she agreed it should be fixed 13:47
I don't remember if there's a ticket. 13:48
Coke there. partcl is now all lowercase.
trac.parrot.org/parrot/search?q=hl...;ticket=on says no. 13:50
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Coke wishlist: a button on my trac search to exclude /closed/ tickets. 13:50
Tene iirc, I told you you'd need to do it for some HLL stuff to not suck.
Coke yup. 13:51
Didn't realize it was for anything other than interp, though. =-)
so, it's done now, anyway.
dalek rtcl: r508 | coke++ | trunk/runtime/builtin/ (50 files):
.HLL is /sometimes/ case sensitive; just always use lowercase.
kgilmer hello :) I'm trying to build parrot, is this the right place to ask a question? 13:59
Coke kgilmer: absolutely.
kgilmer great, thanks Coke. So i'm trying to build parrot for ARM via OpenEmbedded. 14:00
i've written a recipe for OE for parrot
it gets past configure and into compile
let me pastebin the error log, sec
Coke nopaste?
clunker3 pasta.test-smoke.org/ or paste.husk.org/ or nopaste.snit.ch:8001/ or rafb.net/paste or poundperl.pastebin.com/ or paste.scsys.co.uk/
purl nopaste is at nopaste.snit.ch/ (ask TonyC for new channels) or poundperl.pastebin.com/ or paste.scsys.co.uk/ or App::Nopaste or tools/dev/nopaste.pl or at www.extpaste.com/ or paste.scsys.co.uk (for #catalyst, #dbix-class, #moose and others) or gist.github.com/
kgilmer here is what configure says...nothing looks wrong here to me... pasta.test-smoke.org/54 14:02
Coke yup, seems ok. 14:03
kgilmer and here's the end of the log with all the errors: pasta.test-smoke.org/55
i can also provide the recipe 14:04
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kgilmer here is the recipe...which simply shows what params i'm passing in from my build environment: pasta.test-smoke.org/56 14:05
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kgilmer hmm 14:06
actually, why did i comment out the configure?
ha
sec let me try it again with the configure uncommented. i stop/started this project a few times.
kgilmer is rebuilding 14:07
hmm yeah same error 14:08
often i find linker errors result from something using my native compiler rather than my cross compiler 14:09
any easy way i can check for that or other suggestions?
from the log it does look as if it's calling my host perl rather than the one provided in OE. im not sure though if this matters... 14:11
| /usr/bin/perl5.10.0 -MExtUtils::Command -e mkpath blib/lib
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Coke I am not sure anyone has done any cross compilation. 14:11
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Coke do you have ICU installed? 14:12
perhaps on your original platform, but not on your target platform?
kgilmer probably not...as I don't know what ICU is.
Coke unicode library. 14:13
kgilmer my host is gentoo amd64
Coke your config says you have it.
but if you are cross compiling...
kgilmer right...
purl ...
Coke try running perl Configure.pl --without-icu
kgilmer checking now
ok
kgilmer is trying that now after checking for ICU on host 14:14
Coke bah. I'm trying to convert a PMC to a have a PIR class wrapper. getting a segfault!
on $I0 = isa value, 'Undef'
kgilmer confirms ICU 4.0.1 installed on host
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Coke accidentally notices that alt-left is the same as ^P on irssi. 14:32
kgilmer gets same error with --without-icu passed to configure 14:46
Coke, would it be better to send my issue to ml since cross compiling is rare or unknown?
Coke yah; if that didn't help, ml is a better bet. 14:47
also, try to realclean before you re-configure.
'make realclean'
purl well, 'make realclean' is defined inside of the Makefile. Previously it was implemented with $(CONFIGURE), which translated to Configure.pl. Now it is implemented with $(RECONFIGURE), which translates to 'perl tools/dev/reconfigure.pl'. If you did 'svn up' first, you would have wiped out the Makefile and thereby wiped out my ability to say 'make realclean'.
Coke purl, forget 'make realclean'
purl Coke: I forgot 'make realclean'
Coke my segfault is occurring on line 1556 of src/string/api.c 14:48
kgilmer ok thanks Coke
Coke how do I invoke a vtable from inside gdb? 14:52
(since the normal macro access doesn't work, IIRC)
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kgilmer after looking some more at my build script Coke I found my configure params we not actually being passed 14:59
Coke heh.
kgilmer now they are and Configure is choking on my compiler
| inter::progs - Determine what C compiler and linker to use...Compilation failed with 'ccache arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi-gcc -march=armv5te -mtune=xscale -mthumb-interwork -mno-thumb'
Coke now that sounds like a cross compilation issue. =-) 15:00
kgilmer haha
Coke I'd hit the list now. =-)
kgilmer ok sounds good. Thanks again Coke
dalek TT #776 created by coke++: segfault in Parrot_str_equal... 15:04
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Whiteknight Coke: pmc->vtable->add() 15:28
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Coke Whiteknight: Danke. I will file that away. 15:36
(in the meantime, I opened a ticket)
Tene Coke: did you still want me to file a ticket about HLL case munging? 15:41
Or were you going to do it?
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Coke adoughera++ 17:13
Tene: I figured you had more info than I did. =-)
Tene Oh, okay.
Coke I can certainly file the ticket, though.
wammeto?
Tene Sure.
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Coke done 17:17
Coke changes the default bug-version to 1.3.0
dalek TT #777 created by coke++: .HLL should not case-mangle its arg 17:18
rrot: r39671 | coke++ | trunk/docs/project/release_manager_guide.pod:
Just say you need admin rights all the way through for www.parrot.org
 17:23
Coke anyone know what the "language" component is for? 17:29
(on trac)
pmichaud hello all (from airport) 17:49
message Whiteknight isafast branch can be dropped.
purl Message for whiteknight stored.
Coke hello, airport. 17:52
Whiteknight thanks pmichaud
Coke Whiteknight: feel free to update BranchDescriptions on the wiki. =-) 17:53
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Coke Whiteknight: do we need l1bc? 18:28
any reason not to compile l1 to pbc?
Whiteknight i'm envisioning compilation from PBC to L1BC 18:29
PBC will be table lookup for pre-compiled L1BC macros that get executed
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Coke I boggle in confusion. 18:30
Coke will read the next post.
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muixirt Whiteknight, what is the difference introducing this L1 layer and directly targeting vms like, let's say, the jvm? 18:40
Whiteknight muixirt: the difference is that in this case, Parrot is the VM
muixirt a Parrot that somewhat shrinks to something like jvm bytecode 18:43
or to put it another way
what is the point of Parrot afterall? 18:44
Coke muixirt: I'd point you at the faq or at perhaps allison's recent article.
muixirt if the abstracton level of pbc is to high for real purposes
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muixirt with that L1 thingy Parrot is someting like a runtime (ops and pmc) targeting something a simpler vm like the jvm 18:46
Coke, I read that and I do not comment it (don't want to be kicked :-)
(allisons article) 18:50
muixirt probably misunderstood that L1 concept 18:52
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Coke I think chromatic and Whiteknight both have different ideas about it. I'm waiting to see chromatic's alternative writeup. 19:01
(but I'd rather see him make a profiler first)
Whiteknight Yeah, I really hope to hear a good version of chromatic's ideas too 19:02
think about PIR as "words" and L1 as the "Letters"
right now, Parrot has a complicated engine for executing all sorts of arbitrary words
we want to replace it with a smaller, faster system to execute the individual letters
input a word (PIR/PBC), get a stream of letters (L1) and execute those 19:03
The user writes code in easy-to-read words, and Parrot gets to use easy-to-execute letters 19:04
muixirt and these easy-to-execute letters differ from, again let's say, jvm bytecode? 19:05
Whiteknight yes, in the same way jvm bytecode differs from .net bytecode 19:06
different virtual machines operate on different bytecodes
but in a lot of cases, the fundamental operations will be different
muixirt so the Parrot vm is a Potemkin village with a much simpler L1 vm in the background? 19:07
Whiteknight Parrot is still focused on dynamically-typed languages, and it's fundamental operations will reflect that
muixirt different in what way
?
Whiteknight different in the way that Perl is different from Jva 19:08
Java*
muixirt an evasive answer ;-) 19:09
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Whiteknight you're asking evasive questions 19:09
muixirt what can Parrot do better than the jvm which shows feasibilty of supporting dyn. languages? 19:11
Coke That's an excellent question that I've never seen a solid answer on. 19:12
I think that allison might have a more technical answer for it; 19:13
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Coke I would recommend careful phrasing; that can be kind of a "poison" question if you're not careful. I think it's a perfectly valid question, but I don't think that anyone working on parrot is going to, for example, drop the project and go over the jvm. 19:23
and I'd rather our technical people spent time improving parrot rather than defending the existence of the project. =-)
muixirt Coke, I don't question the existence of the project nor do I coax anyone to use the jvm instead of Parrot. 19:26
I question the assumptions 19:29
Tene muixirt: some of the significant reasons for Parrot are historic. When Parrot was started, the jvm wasn't appropriate at all for a dynamic language, and was extremely closed.
The dynamic stuff added to the JVM has been fairly recent. 19:30
Where Parrot has been dynamic from the very beginning, because that was one of the goals.
I don't know enough about the JVM to really speak about the current state, though.
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Coke (historic) those were all handwavy at the time, to my recollection. 19:36
They may have been backed by fact, but it's not like we had sample code or a use case or...
Tene I wasn't around at the time, so it's even more handwavy to me.
For me, the value equation is "Parrot is fun". 19:37
with some measure of "Perl 6 is fun, and rewarding to help with" 19:38
Whiteknight I'm not entirely current on what all features JVM offers, so I can't give a point-by-point comparison of it with Parrot 19:42
Coke <nod> It would certainly be nice to have a well-reasoned technical explanation about "why not mono" and "why not jvm". 19:43
would make a good research project if anyone cared to do it. 19:44
www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=142797 is an interesting read from back in the day. 19:45
Whiteknight Personally, my favorite aspect of parrot is that it's register-based, not stack-based
although that really doesn't have a bearing on it's usefulness for dynamic languages
Coke code.google.com/p/parrot-jvm/ is also interesting, but empty.
Whiteknight: I think some claim it does. 19:46
Whiteknight register-based VMs have a numbe of benefits over stack-based ones, certainly, but I don't think either approach is *better* for dynamic languages
I
muixirt Whiteknight, the jvm might simply nowadays be fast enough for these dynamically-typed languages with their chunky runtimes
Whiteknight I'd love to hear an alternate opinion
Coke finds video.google.com/videoplay?docid=29...4749292774 19:47
Coke is watching it now for the first time.
muixirt Coke I say that some weeks ago and wasn't quite convinced 19:48
Coke one of the issues is that the JVM today isn't the same as the JVM of 2001. 19:49
(neither is the PVM)
I really wish I could see the slides on this. =-) 19:52
so far it's not P vs J, it's just "why P"
Coke didn't realize it was 35 minutes long. 19:54
Whiteknight: you should link to that video from www.parrot.org somewhere.
Whiteknight Coke: I'l throw a link up later, that's a good idea 19:59
I haven't seen that video in it's entirety myself, so I need to watch that.
Parrot has some pretty impressive built-in support for dynamic class introspection and reflection, which I don't know that a statically-typed VM will support as well 20:00
I don't know that it doesn't, but it would suprise me
Of course we could run a dynamic language on the JVM, but it won't be tuned to it in the same way Parrot is 20:01
Coke (tuned) I don't think we can make that argument any time soon. =-) 20:02
Whiteknight in theory
purl hmmm... in theory is my pants or it's too dark to read or somewhat intrusive to David Wheeler
Whiteknight we obviously have a lot of development still to do, and a lot of optimization
but the current state of an actively-developed project isn't so important as it's long-term potential 20:04
Parrot also has a strong focus on interoperability, only .NET really comes close to it in terms of similar capability
JVM was never intended for things that weren't Java, even if some things have been targetd to it
at this very moment JVM is faster then PVM, no question 20:12
But there is a lot of potential for PVM in the future, and it will become quite a force to be reckoned with in the VM world 20:13
on top of that it's a great development project, I would work on it with this team even if it didn't have the same merit as a product
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Coke she keeps saying parrot is significatntly faster. I've never seen that. =-) 20:20
ah. raw PIR, not an HLL compiled to PIR.
Coke wishes the segfault fairy would come and fix his latest blocker. 20:26
mj41 Jonathan, chromatic and Allison should write Parrot vs. JVM vs. .NET FAQ ... dynamic method dispatch, first class functions, first-class continuations, paramemeters (optiona, named, ..), register based 20:27
"Parrot is innovative and not just a .NET or JVM clone.", Jonathan Worthington, 2005
Coke devil's advocate: "Yes but how."
mj41 •.NET constrains high level semantics of languages to achieve interoperability. Parrot has interoperability provided at an assembly level – more later. www.jnthn.net/papers/2005-lpw-parrot-slides.pdf 20:28
range of platforms
faster than JVM because of Continuation Passing Scheme 20:29
for dynamic languages
I am only copy paste what I read and don't understand a lot :-). 20:30
Perl 5 has two big features that make using the JVM or .NET problematic--closures and polymorphic scalars. Perl 6 adds a third (which Ruby shares) in continuations, and a fourth (which Ruby doesn't) of co-routines." Dan Sugalski, March 25, 2003 20:32
Coke perhaps mj41 should collect these snippets and put them on a wiki page. 20:33
(so we can forward people there.)
mj41 but now there are www.artima.com/lejava/articles/dyna...uages.html and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_Language_Runtime
muixirt Coke, wiki.jvmlangsummit.com/pdf/38_Randal_parrot.pdf
mj41 so probably some of these arguments are history
www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=614832 ... MMD is another one 20:41
my English sucks. I can't create Wiki page :-(.
I read many articles perl6.cz/wiki/Perl_6_and_Parrot_links . I was thinking that all you folks know that JVM or .NET are not good enought for us :-). 20:42
Coke wrap all those up and send them to whiteknight, then. 20:43
mikehh I thought one of the main concepts of parrot vs other vm's was it is register based rather than stack based 20:45
mj41 I can probably quote our gurus, but we really need something fresh. ... 2007 Larry obviously if Ruby's running on .Net, they support continuations somehow
mikehh: IMHO, there are years of engineering work on Parrot to support dynamic languages. So, it is not only about register based vs. stack based. I hope :-). 20:54
mikehh there is a difference between "can do" ans "supports"
mj41 yes. In the end these are all engineering problems, no academic discussions. 20:56
mikehh in terms of .net and jvm - wheras parrot has been designed to support dynamic languages
of course one of parrots main problems is hat it is a volunteer project - it does not have paid teams developing it as .net and jvm did 20:58
although that is also one of its major advantages - it is just taking longer
purl okay, mikehh.
mj41 I don't believe there will be energy to support all what Perl 6 needs in JVM. 20:59
and comparable to Parrot. But as time go, we will see :-). 21:00
mikehh of course it could be done - but then who would want to 21:01
the parallel development of parrot and perl6 is exiting (I think anyway)
even the proof of concept work on pugs was good 21:02
muixirt exiting? :-) 21:03
mikehh exciting :-}
mj41 Yes. Volunteers. Dan Sugalski ... www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000151.html March 2003 ... the big reason we're going with Parrot rather than using the JVM or .NET is a cultural choice, rather than a technical one. :-) 21:04
mikehh perhaps - but I do think there were a lot of good technical reasond for the choices 21:06
dame this jeyboard - it just don't fit my fingers like the old one 21:07
as you can see keyboard 21:08
abd damn
and
mj41 "They're fully turing complete, so it's not an issue of capability." :-)
... the issue is one of speed. 21:09
mikehh I read a paper once about a turing complete language that only had a subtraction and branch conditional operator 21:10
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mikehh parrot is in need of a lot of refactorings and optimizations - its getting better and better 21:14
about a year ago it took me about an hour to build and smoke parrot and a couple of hours to run the full test suite 21:18
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mikehh now I can do a build smoke and fulltest in about an hour 21:18
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mj41 mikehh: HW upgrade? :-) 21:37
Tene Allison refers to contexts as GCable in that video. :) 21:39
mikehh no - I have been using a dual-core Pentium D system in that time 21:46
I am getting an upgrade begining July
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jdv79_ make: *** Recursive variable `DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH' references itself (eventually). Stop. 21:59
look familiar?
i was just following the steps at rakudo.org to get everything setup.
darbelo jdv79_: on what platform? 22:00
jdv79_ mactel
darwin is it called? 22:01
darbelo I call 'em "Intel Macs", but I'm not a mac user anyways :). I'm guessing you are on some version of OS X, right? 22:02
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Infinoid hi jdv79_ 22:09
Is this error from rakudo or from parrot? 22:10
Either way, can you stick your Makefile up on nopaste.snit.ch? 22:11
I have a hunch it might be related to the ":=" vs "=" Makefile-debacle
In answer to your question, no, it doesn't look familiar. But I think Coke and kid51 are the real OSX experts, not me 22:12
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Coke I'm using intel darwin on OS X 10.4, no problems. 23:17
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Infinoid Coke: Is there more than one available make program that could be confusing parrot? 23:23
Coke it's all gcc.
"gnu"
Infinoid ok 23:24
he would get an error like that if his Makefile was full of "=", rather than ":="
which I think parrot does for non-gnu Makes
Coke I'd need more information about his setup. 23:27
(args to configure, perl version, result of config...) 23:28
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cotto Who else has made it to Pittsburgh so far? 23:39
dalek rrot: r39672 | cotto++ | branches/pmc_pct/compilers/pmcc/src/emitter/pmc.pm:
[pmcc] flesh out some supporting PMC initialization functions and add more to class_init's first pass
 23:44
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