Parrot 2.10.1 Released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Onward and upward with Google Code-In | Please test rakudo with bleeding edge parrot! | Remove deprecations | close tickets | merge html_cleanup and embed_api2
Set by moderator on 14 December 2010.
cotto_work hio whiteknight 00:00
whiteknight hello cotto_work
the release tomorrow is going to be...interesting
kid51 �porqu�?
whiteknight kid51: my development laptop died lastnight 00:01
cotto_work I don't like ...interesting releases
whiteknight so I'm going to have to do the release on a hodgepodge of different computers
kid51 whiteknight: Your computers seem to, ... um, have a short lifetime.
whiteknight it will get done, and earlier than I normally do because I won't wait till I get home from work to do it
kid51: Actually I have a pretty good record, historically
kid51 IIRC, you were having problems with a laptop cover a few months back 00:03
cotto_work Has anyone built Rakudo with master recently? 00:06
whiteknight kid51: yeah, my kid broke the hinge for my laptop monitor 00:12
actually this problem may be related to that one, I suspect the hinge repair job did something negative to the wires leading to my monitor backlight 00:13
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dalek rrot: ee05fe3 | jkeenan++ | MANIFEST.SKIP:
Regenerate after recent additions to .gitignore.
 00:36
kid51 make fulltest: had one FAIL on linux/i386, which should now be corrected with that last commit (SKIP) 00:38
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cotto_work jnthn: ping 00:49
whiteknight: have you tried bugging juerd on #perl6? 00:53
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dalek m-eta-wink-kzd: 516af44 | plobsing++ | src/winxed-compiler.dual:
names can be keywords
 00:57
m-eta-wink-kzd: c2eed60 | plobsing++ | src/winxed-compiler.dual:
don't poke #name tokens directly
m-eta-wink-kzd: 5b04966 | plobsing++ | src/winxed-compiler.dual:
check rule 'name' last - it is very broad
m-eta-wink-kzd: 36721fd | plobsing++ | src/winxed-compiler.dual:
bypass tokenizer to allow keyword names
m-eta-wink-kzd: bc3e778 | plobsing++ | src/ometa-base.winxed:
exactly() uses == not === in winxed - === on PMCs is different than in JS
m-eta-wink-kzd: 6cb374f | plobsing++ | src/ometa-base.winxed:
eliminate references to unimplemented sub
m-eta-wink-kzd: e062fd7 | plobsing++ | t/tutorial.Ωη:
small changes from javascript to winxed
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sorear What does ohm-eta-wink-kzd stand for? 01:00
plobsing_ OMeta/Winxed 01:02
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plobsing_ I pronounce them the same 01:02
whiteknight cotto_work: I tried privmsg him a few times. I think we're on opposite schedules 01:11
cotto_work: I thought aloha was back yesterday? 01:12
I think aloha is here now
aloha?
aloha help
aloha whiteknight: Ask me for help about: msg, convert, status, vars, karma, auth, seen, maths, clock, infobot, translate, loader (say 'help <modulename>').
cotto_work msg whiteknight I guess you're right. 01:14
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
cotto_work We need to get that bot onto feather.
seen fbrito 01:15
aloha fbrito was last seen in #parrot 10 days 6 hours ago joining the channel.
cotto_work karma svn
aloha svn has karma of -8.
cotto_work karma git
aloha git has karma of 3.
cotto_work it's clearly not functioning at 100%
kid51_at_dinner make fulltest PASS on darwin/ppc
01:16 kid51_at_dinner is now known as kid51
dalek rrot: a70fea8 | jkeenan++ | NEWS:
Add entries about 'quickcover' and 'headerizer.pl'.
 01:19
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kid51 parrot-members: Please check your email for draft of minutes of our Aug 31 annual meeting. 01:57
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dalek m-eta-wink-kzd: 54eab58 | plobsing++ | t/tutorial.Ωη:
slight mistranlation of javascript tutorial
 02:26
m-eta-wink-kzd: 5ca318d | plobsing++ | src/ometa-base.winxed:
ResizablePMCArray is the winxed Array equivalent
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cotto ~ 03:05
plobsing_ ~~ 03:06
unicode filenames make IMCC unhappy :( 03:12
cotto imcc makes everyone unhappy, so I think it balances out 03:14
plobsing_ hmmm... doesn't look like its just imcc. loading pbc also fails 03:15
unicode command line arguments in general are ok, only when they are filenames for parrot to load does it fail 03:20
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dalek TT #1898 created by plobsing++: unicode bytecode filenames 03:28
TT #1898: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1898
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cotto just rebased a gist. This is great. 05:30
treed github is pretty awesome
cotto If there were a decent gist bot, nopaste would be obsolete. 05:32
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treed Hm. 05:34
sorear what does it even mean to rebase a gist?
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cotto I have a clone here and one at work. I made some changes here but didn't commit/push. I pushed some changes at work and then committed/rebased at home. 05:38
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dalek rrot: 1e0c652 | (Gerd Pokorra)++ | tools/docs/filename_and_chapter.pl:
change bounds
 09:31
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smash hello everyone 12:41
mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#1786) fulltest) at 1e0c652 - Ubuntu 10.10 amd64 (g++-4.5 with --optimize) 12:49
rakudo (cae7f95) - builds on parrot (2_10_1-917-g1e0c652) - make test, make spectest_smolder[(#1789), roast (f94554a)] PASS - Ubuntu 10.10 amd64 (g++-4.5 with --optimize) 13:11
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holli I am trying to install rakudo* on WinXP using a Strawberry Perl 5.12 too bootstrap, but i get an error: snipt.org/tHI/ - Any suggestions? 13:14
mikehh holli: seems to have lost the separators '\\', however I use linux - you need an Win32 person 13:21
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whiteknight good morning, #parrot 13:30
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mikehh hiya whiteknight 13:44
how's the release going, don't think htlm_cleanup is quite ready, unfortunately have had no time to work on it 13:45
last couple of days have been a writeoff as far as parrot is concerned 13:46
t/src/embed.t - TODO passed: 3 - g++ with --optimize but not without 13:54
whiteknight okay, I'm going to make a branch now to prepare the release 14:04
I've been testing all morning, just submitted 4 smolder reports that all passed
Actually, I'm going to submit a report for Win64 first 14:06
smash whiteknight: let me know if you want to run any test
*me to run
whiteknight smash: Okay, thanks! I think I am good for now though
if you want to run a last-minute smolder test, that would be good 14:07
oh, and I need updates to NEWS. I haven't been able to do that yet myself
mikehh whiteknight: tests seem ok on Ubuntu i386/amd64, just a TODO pass with --optimize
whiteknight okay, nice
mikehh I've run through fulltest on Ubuntu amd64, gonna check i386 now, bbiab 14:08
smash ok, trying to run some tests 14:09
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whiteknight awesome, thanks 14:09
bluescreen whiteknight do you need more smolder? 14:16
whiteknight bluescreen: Yes, as much as possible
bluescreen any branch in particular� 14:17
?
smash smolder submitted 14:20
bluescreen is there any way to tell "make smoke" to use proxy ? 14:23
nevermind... it is: http_proxy="whatever" make smoke 14:26
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smash make test: All tests successful (darwin) 14:30
dalek rrot: ee0b73f | Whiteknight++ | NEWS:
update NEWS by doing a very quick skim of git log since 2.10.1
 14:36
whiteknight awesome. I love seeing all tests successful
anybody else have NEWS items? Check that last commit to make sure all your hard work is being accounted for. 14:37
I'll start the release in ~1 hour to give time to update NEWS and run more tests 14:38
Can anybody test Rakudo against current Parrot master?
mikehh whiteknight: done on Ubuntu amd64 all pass, dpectest_smolder #1789 14:40
spectest_smolder 14:41
working on i386 now
whiteknight awesome, thanks 14:42
mikehh++
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whiteknight hardest part about the release is coming up with a good name for it 14:51
bluescreen it isn't any convention like ubuntu's? 14:52
maybe parrot species names? 14:54
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bluescreen www.avianweb.com/parrotspecies.htm ( look how many you have :D ) 14:56
whiteknight bluescreen: yeah, I've been over the list
bluescreen unbuntu keeps incrementing the first letter of the release's name "H:hardy L:lucid M:maverik" and so 14:57
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whiteknight bluescreen: right, we don't do that 15:01
bluescreen lol
whiteknight release_manager_guide.pod is in need of major fixes and copyedits 15:07
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mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#1797) fulltest) at ee0b73f - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (g++-4.5 with --optimize) 15:18
whiteknight awesome
mikehh t/src/embed.t - TODO passed: 3 again with --optimize, but without it still fails 15:20
this happens on both amd64 and i36 Ubuntu - probably due to asserets not happening with --optimize 15:21
asserts
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mikehh rakudo builds, running spectest_smolder now 15:37
whiteknight okay, I have most other things ready now. When you say rakudo works I'm going to push the new release branch
well, I have to run fulltest too 15:40
that's going to take forever
mikehh rakudo (cae7f95) - builds on parrot (2_10_1-918-gee0b73f) - make test, make spectest_smolder[(#1798), roast (f94554a)] PASS - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (g++-4.5 with --optimize) 16:00
whiteknight awesome 16:03
mikehh looks good to me, don't know about other platforms though
I've tested to fulltest on Ubuntu 10.10 amd64 and i386 plus rakudo 16:04
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whiteknight urg, this bootstrap step for ops2c is giving me heartburn 16:10
maybe somebody can explain to me why we have functions in Parrot named with the version number in them 16:17
and why we need to do the release with an old version of Parrot on the machine, instead of having Configure.pl update the version number automatically when we configure
atrodo that sounds like fun 16:18
whiteknight yeah, not so much 16:19
plobsing whiteknight: we version the core_ops builtin oplib the same number as parrot that version carries over into the name for getting at those ops. 16:20
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plobsing now, I'd argue it doesn't make a lot of sense to version the oplib the same as libparrot. only bump the oplib number when we make ops changes. 16:21
whiteknight plobsing: Okay, I can understand why we would use the version number in the function name. Still doesn't explain why we go through this bootstrap crap
plobsing but it was a good approximation historically 16:22
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whiteknight okay, I'm re-fulltesting now. When that's done I'll push the release and we can go back to breaking the everliving crap out of master again 16:22
plobsing bumping libparrot version number bumps core_ops version number (because that's how we've always done things). changes to core_ops need a bootstrap step
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whiteknight plobsing: Right, but my point is that if the oplib has the same version number as libparrot, it would be trivially easy to set that version number with a macro, and define that at configure time 16:23
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whiteknight and then we don't need to bootstrap, we can make a release in 1 shot from a fresh checkout 16:23
plobsing ah, but opsc handles more than just core ops, and those are not versioned with macros 16:24
whiteknight not when I do ./ops2c --core 16:25
that's the only bootstrap step we do
plobsing i'd say we shouldn't have to bump the oplib version number when parrot's version number increases
it makes oplib version numbers meaningless
oplib version number is more like a finer-grained PBC_COMPAT
whiteknight I'm fine with takeing that out. My only real complaint is that this bootstrapping process is a pain 16:26
however we avoid bootstrapping is fine
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whiteknight git rev-parse master > SHA1_TO_REMEMBER 16:39
t/compilers/pge/p5regex/p5rx.t contains almost a thousand tests, most of which are skipped for "unknown reason" or are TODO'd without explanation 16:54
at least, I think that's the test producing all this output 16:55
t/manifest/01-basic.t fails if we're not in a checkout directory. It runs too many tests 16:57
I think there is an extra skip in there somewhere
not a deal breaker 16:59
dalek rrot: 0ee08b4 | Whiteknight++ | ChangeLog:
update changelog
rrot: c8ec1f6 | Whiteknight++ | tools/release/release.json:
Partial update of release.json
rrot: 74ee649 | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
update a few fields in RESPONSIBLE_PARTIES. This release is named 'At The ROFLBBQ'
rrot: e21a925 | Whiteknight++ | / (6 files):
update version number everywhere
rrot: 5ed3cd5 | Whiteknight++ | docs/p (2 files):
more updates
rrot: 2e22116 | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
update version numbers in opsc output
whiteknight ...ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Parrot "At The ROFLBBQ" 17:00
atrodo That must be some exotic species of parrot 17:01
plobsing I can nuke master now? 17:04
whiteknight plobsing: please do 17:06
does anybody here have an SSH key for the FTP server? 17:07
dalek rrot: 3bbbbc3 | plobsing++ | / (8 files):
Merge branch 'errors_globals_flag_deprecation'
 17:08
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Kristaba Hi everyone 17:20
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Kristaba whiteknight: What's up today? 17:21
whiteknight Kristaba: not much, how are you today? 17:22
cotto_work: ping
Kristaba I'm fine, thank you 17:23
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Kristaba So, still problems with your laptop? 17:24
whiteknight yeah, haven't gotten it fixed yet 17:25
bluescreen Kristaba: Whiteknight is a bat and he can program by sonar 17:31
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whiteknight I program by pencil and paper. Of course pushing my changes to github is a bit of a hassle 17:37
cotto whiteknight, pong 17:40
Kristaba No, it's easy to push changes to github, just send a letter to the Github Headquarters with the URL of your github repo
whiteknight cotto: I don't have SSH access to the FTP server. I need a kind soul to help upload the tarball
as soon as that's up, I can put out the release announcements
cotto ok. Where's the tarball now? 17:41
whiteknight I have it local. I can email it to you or try to put it someplace temporary 17:43
cotto either works
whiteknight let me upload it to github real quick
cotto I need to take off for work soon, but I can also send it from there
whiteknight okay 17:44
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whiteknight cotto: github.com/downloads/parrot/parrot...1.0.tar.gz 17:48
let me know when you have it so I can delete it off github 17:49
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cotto whiteknight, done 17:50
whiteknight awesome, thanks
cotto goes to work?
whiteknight does he?
the world may never know 17:51
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bluescreen he he 17:57
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smash whiteknight++ # release 18:01
whiteknight thanks! 18:04
NotFound Check MANIFEST...No such file: t/op/errorson.t 18:05
dalek website: Whiteknight++ | Parrot 2.11.0 "At The ROFLBBQ" Released!
website: www.parrot.org/news/2010/Parrot-2.11.0
whiteknight Notfound; plobsing just merged a branch that was dealing with error flags of some sort 18:06
NotFound Ah, good ':) 18:07
Haven't seen the commit, I got distracted with my new toy, a Toshiba Folio 100 18:09
whiteknight lucky bastard 18:10
NotFound Not available is USA yet, isn't it?
whiteknight I don't know
moderator Parrot 2.11.0 Released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Onward and upward with Google Code-In | Please test rakudo with bleeding edge parrot! | merge html_cleanup and embed_api2 18:14
dalek rrot: fa4ca98 | plobsing++ | MANIFEST:
mk_manifest_and_skip
 18:16
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whiteknight I have the embed_api4 branch merged and tested locally. 18:33
all I have to do is "git push" and we have a new API to play with 18:36
bluescreen cool... is there any chance to setup GCI tasks for creating unit tests 18:37
whiteknight I can create tests, yes 18:38
we have some unit tests already
t/src/embed/*
Kristaba Yeah, I saw the old API and this one is really better ;)
whiteknight Kristaba: thanks!
bluescreen 2nd question do we have a coverage report?
whiteknight aloha: cover? 18:39
aloha whiteknight: Sorry, I don't know.
whiteknight aloha: coverage?
aloha whiteknight: coverage is cv.perl6.cz or tapir2.ro.vutbr.cz/cover/cover-results/
whiteknight bluescreen: tapir2.ro.vutbr.cz/cover/cover-resu...8/c_cover/
we don't have coverage for the embed_api stuff yet
if I merge, we will start getting automated reports for it 18:40
bluescreen this is awesome
cotto_work www.artima.com/lejava/articles/azul...ss_gc.html 18:52
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whiteknight I think I would really like to deprecate src/extend_vtable.c 19:02
we would cut out a few dozen exported symbols from libparrot
The reality is that all our extenders use the VTABLE_ macros, not these functions 19:03
And embedders shouldn't use them, they should use the new API 19:06
cotto_work whiteknight: which file? src/extend_vtable.c doesn't exist.
atrodo cotto_work> That's an interesting 19:09
gc
NotFound whiteknight: letting embedders use vtable functions conflicts with the goal of isolate them from parrot exceptions
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cotto_work ah. It's generated. 19:10
whiteknight NotFound: not embedders. Embedders use the API only 19:15
extenders are different. They are inside Parrot and are going to have a different level of isolations
Coke ... did I sleep through the release?
whiteknight Coke: yessir
Coke woot, I suppose. 19:16
NotFound whiteknight: not if we deprecate part of it 19:17
whiteknight NotFound: We don't have an extending API yet, not really 19:19
and nobody is using src/extend_vtable.c
NotFound whiteknight: nobody is using it because they call the vtables directly, but embedders shouldn't do that, and most probably need the functionality. 19:20
Unless we provide a way to call them as methods, or something like that. 19:21
whiteknight NotFound: Right, embedding is different
we aren't talking about embedding
Embedders use the API, not extend_vtable.c
NotFound whiteknight: yeah, but there is no point in deprecating a bunch of functions and then creating identical ones. 19:22
Even if we change the #include
whiteknight why would we create a bunch of identical ones? Embedders won't have this level of access to individual VTABLEs 19:25
embedders won't know about VTABLEs at all
Embedders get PMCs, a handful of operations on them, and the ability to call methods
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whiteknight they don't need ~150 VTABLEs to play with 19:26
NotFound That's is the question, we shoud know if we provide enough functionality for embedders before deciding about that.
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whiteknight NotFound: We can talk about it, but so far I have considered VTABLEs to be an implementation detail. 19:30
The API can provide operations without having to expose the VTABLEs to the user
One day if we unify VTABLEs and METHODs, so long as we have an API to invoke a method the embedder gets all the VTABLEs for free 19:31
NotFound whiteknight: I just want to try to avoid embedders falling to use any header and any function they need, like happened before. 19:32
whiteknight NotFound: The difference now is that we have an API. If they use something that isn't in the API we don't have to give a deprecation notice 19:33
NotFound whiteknight: I'd like to care about reality, not only about policy. 19:34
whiteknight Notfound: true, but policy is important too
If you want to use Parrot, you must use the official API 19:35
if you use anything else, sorry, but we won't help you or save you from your own mistakes
If you need something that isn't in the API, ask and we will provide it
NotFound Let's hope they do. 19:36
Coke whiteknight: as someone who has been forced to use "whatever was available" because the API was half baked, you might want to tone that down just a smidge.
whiteknight Coke: The important part of this discussion is "if you need somethign that isn't in the API, ask and we will provide it"
I'm not going to treat the new API as if it were half-baked because the old one was
My intention with the new API is to be much more proactive and accommodating. 19:38
The old "API" was really a farce. It didn't represent a complete list of things that users wanted, and was used internally as often as externally. We could have not called it an API and had the same result
Coke I can only hope the official docs reflect that.
whiteknight Coke: I do understand where you are coming from, but the "things always will be bad because they have been in the past" attitude is not one that I am going to follow 19:40
NotFound We need to document, then, that a big difference between extend and embed groups of functions is that the extend ones should deal with exceptions
whiteknight the new API is not the old API, and I'm not going to lump all the old problems and mindsets onto it 19:41
Coke whiteknight: I am not sure we're having the same conversation here.
whiteknight NotFound: There always has been some differentiation, but you're right that we need new documentation about it
NotFound whiteknight: not at all. It was suggested several times that the distinction between embed and extend was an artifact and should be removed. 19:42
whiteknight NotFound: I've never seen that suggestion. Either way, I certainly don't agree with it 19:43
there are very big differences between the two
NotFound whiteknight: the point is that we must clearly document what is the current direction we'll take.
whiteknight NotFound: noted
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moritz 6 19:49
whiteknight 6?
moritz sorry, hanging irssi screen
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cotto_work jnthn: ping 20:08
#ps in 5 20:25
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kid51 #ps starting now 20:31
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dalek rrot/embed_api4: 03f1310 | Whiteknight++ | docs/pdds/draft/pdd10_embedding.pod:
start re-drafting PDD10 for the new API
 20:51
cotto_work make quickcover doesn't work on my work machine. 21:03
whiteknight cotto_work: does "make cover" work there? 21:04
cotto_work checking
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Kapace_ Hows this looking for make cover docs: gist.github.com/750697 22:03
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cotto_work msg kid51 The cover and quickcover targets don't properly fail when Devel::Cover isn't installed. Configure.pl seems to detect the lack of gcov2perl just fine. 22:18
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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mikehh Kapace_: you might wat to specify that it requires Devel::Cover and you can load this using apt_get on debian/Ubuntu or with cpan/cpanp etc 22:47
want
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Kapace_ mikehh: yeah thats that libdevel-perl-cover package 23:17
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mikehh Kapace_: yeah I know that, but you might mention Devel::Cover in the requirements 23:23
Kapace_ ah, ok 23:24
mikehh Once upon a time, we used to have a list of requirements for parrot (which did not mention Devel::Cover or some of the stuff required bu smoke/smolder) I think it is in one of the appendicies docs/book/draft 23:27
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mikehh always meant to do something about that, maybe Real Soon Now (© Jerry Pournelle) 23:31
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Kapace_ do I use L<> or F<> to make a link to another file? 23:37
sorear L 23:40
mikehh L is for Links, F just displays filenames 23:42
Kapace_ projects/roles_responsibilities.pod has F<>'s and I see them as links.. 23:43
mikehh Kapace_: actually haven't tried, perldoc pod 23:45
Kapace_ ok 23:47
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mikehh Kapace_: note that the see also at the end uses F<> which does not link 23:50
Kapace_ maybe its "F<>: if file exists link, else italics" 23:52
mikehh will seriously look at that in html_cleanup branch 23:55
because if I try and link it seems to fail

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