Parrot 2.11.0 Released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Goals: write GettingStartedWithPlumage, review html documentation, test HLLs, review deprecations | no major changes after Tuesday, only critical fixes and documentation updates after Friday
Set by moderator on 12 January 2011.
dalek TT #1289 closed by jkeenan++: Review/Consolidate test infrastructure in t/codingstd and t/distro 00:09
TT #1289: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1289
TT #97 closed by jkeenan++: test installable config
TT #97: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/97
whiteknight I didn't realize until a few days ago that IMCC really had multiple entry points, and that they are duplicating a hell of a lot of code between them 00:12
compilers/imcc/main.c:imcc_run is called by the frontend, but compilers/imcc/parser_util.c:imcc_compile_file is called by the PIR compreg 00:13
the two do nearly identical things
the later sets up a new context and updates some crap for the namespace and all 00:14
very soon I think we are going to need to unify 00:15
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dukeleto whiteknight: sounds good 00:21
plobsing +1 00:23
why does 'plumage projects' run so slowly? it takes ~1 second per line of output. 00:24
that's not going to scale well 00:25
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dukeleto plobsing: not sure, nqp-rx is still pretty slow 00:27
plobsing: perhaps something can be cached
plobsing I suspect the json parsing, but I have no evidence to support that assumption yet. 00:29
that speed is unacceptable if we're going to try pushing stuff out of core and grow our ecosystem
dukeleto plobsing: yes, we will have to fix that soon 00:30
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dalek p-rx/nom: 7852255 | jonathan++ | src/metamodel/multi_dispatch.c:
Finish up getting type-based multiple dispatch to work.
 01:04
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dalek p-rx/nom: b6b076d | jonathan++ | src/metamodel/multi_dispatch.c:
Get multi-dispatch on definedness to work.
 01:36
p-rx/nom: f4fe15c | jonathan++ | t/nqp/55-multi-method.t:
Add multi-method tests from nqpclr, which now pass in nqp-rx/nom.
 01:37
p-rx/nom: 78031bf | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (3 files):
Update bootstrap with multiple dispatch and signature parsing improvements.
 01:53
p-rx/nom: b0fa8db | jonathan++ | src/metamodel/how/NQPMu.pm:
Make ACCEPTS a multi and correct the signature of it.
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whiteknight tests in t/src/embed/* are not being run in coretest 02:26
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dalek rrot: 3532e07 | Whiteknight++ | lib/Parrot/Harness/DefaultTests.pm:
add t/src/embed/*.t tests to the coretest run target. They weren't being run before
 03:03
rrot: 9d084b0 | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:parrot/parrot
whiteknight blah. The imcc_cleanups branch removes a file from the build. Every time I switch branches I need to configure again tor regen the makefile 03:30
let me tell you how old this has gotten 03:31
cotto whiteknight, I've resorted to using a separate clone and screen sessions for branches that do that. 03:33
whiteknight yeah, I'm about 90% of the way to making that same decision
cotto If you know what decision you'll make, you can save some time by making it now instead of later. 03:35
I'm chatting with the osuosl folks about fixing parrot.org. The drupal site is back. trac seems to be trickier. 03:36
whiteknight what's broken about it?
cotto other than it being unresponsive? 03:37
whiteknight no, I mean what's the root cause of the brokenness? 03:38
bad widget? Broken doodad?
cotto They say they're going to grow the disk. That seems to imply something about space.
it's back 03:40
whiteknight I wonder if all those smolder reports filled us up? 03:41
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dalek TT #1970 created by cotto++: test 03:44
TT #1970: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1970 03:45
TT #1970 closed by cotto++: test
TT #1970: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1970
cotto whiteknight, when did you notice trac being broken?
whiteknight kid51 noticed this morning. I haven't really been looking at it today 03:46
cotto It looks like it wasn't completely broken for very long. The github hook caught all but the most recent batch of commits. 03:49
anyway, now's a good time to file that Eval deprecation
whiteknight and the PIR compreg? 03:51
cotto Is that #1967 Deprecate IMCC compreg ? 03:53
sorear don't we need to provide an alternate way to compile PIR? 03:56
we could deprecate "all uses of the PIR compreg other than VTABLE_invoke", then ensure that the replacement class has a vtable override for at least one dep cycle
whiteknight cotto: yes
cotto whiteknight, ok. What are you thoughts on pmichaud's suggestion? 03:57
whiteknight sorear: yes, we are going to have a replacement
cotto: I haven't see his suggestion. Is it on the ticket?
cotto yes
basically, go with pdd31, which defines a standard interface for compilers
whiteknight cotto: yes, that was basically my idea. I didn't list all the specifics in the ticket 03:58
but yes, we are going to make a PDD31-alike PMC type for the PIR compiler object
and use that to replace the current NCI PMC that it uses
cotto whiteknight: by all means, go for it 03:59
whiteknight awesome. I'm running some tests right now, I'll put in the deprecation notices shortly thereafter
cotto those pdds aren't going to become true of nobody follows them
whiteknight I do want to review that PDD in particular and make sure it is up to snuff 04:01
cotto atrodo, ping 04:03
msg atrodo Have you given any thought to what a struct would look like in your Lorito prototype? 04:07
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
whiteknight is there an option for the c_output_is test functions where it won't delete the binaries after the test is over? 04:13
I have a problem with a test, but I can't debug it because the binaries are being cleaned up by prove 04:14
cotto whiteknight, that doesn't sound like a bad idea. +1 to add such an option if you document it. 04:15
whiteknight blah
and for the life of me I can't figure out how to compile these files myself 04:16
When I compile with "clang $(./parrot_config libparrot_linkflags) $(./parrot_config libparrot_soname) $(./parrot_config linkflags)" it says it can't find libparrot
so that frustrates me
fuggedaboutit. I'm going to bed 04:17
cotto 'night
whiteknight goodnight
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Coke (easiest way to deprecate compreg "PIR" and replace it with a new compreg object is to call the new one something other than PIR. 04:17
then you avoid having to dance. 04:18
cotto atrodo++ 04:27
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dukeleto ~~ 06:20
Coke: perhaps we should call it PIR++ ... 06:21
plobsing call it what it is, IMCC 06:23
cotto +1 to imcc
dalek rrot: 9dad052 | dukeleto++ | NEWS:
[doc] Add some meat to NEWS
 06:28
cotto remembers that updating NEWS was on his todo list for today. 06:29
dukeleto cotto: yeah, a lot has happened during GCI that is not in NEWS
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dukeleto starts up the debian-sparc64 smoker, now that smolder seems to be back up 06:40
cotto dukeleto, how would you summarize the testing you're doing with the gcc compile farm? 06:51
that should go in NEWS
dukeleto cotto: i will add something 07:02
cotto: smolder.parrot.org/app/projects/rep...tails/2988 <-- first smolder report from the sparc smoker in the gcc compile farm
cotto dukeleto, ok 07:04
dukeleto, is there an easy way to get a list of everyone who's contributed to Parrot since the last release, including people who had branches merged in from external repos? 07:07
dukeleto cotto: yeah 07:09
cotto: github.com/visionmedia/git-extras
cotto: and use the "git summary" tool
cotto dukeleto++
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moderator Parrot 2.11.0 Released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Goals: write GettingStartedWithPlumage, review html documentation, test HLLs, review deprecations | no major changes after Tuesday, only critical fixes and documentation updates after Friday
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cotto bluescreen is Mariano Wahlmann, right? 07:36
verified 07:38
dukeleto cotto: CREDITS should have most of the info you want, and if it doesn't, please add it there 07:39
cotto dukeleto, right. In this case it didn't. The #ffmpeg folks were helpful though. 07:47
dukeleto Rubinius was ported to HaikuOS and NetBSD in the last few weeks. 07:51
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cotto dukeleto, are you adding anything more to NEWS? 07:58
git seems lta at merging NEWS changes 07:59
seen nwellnhof 08:02
aloha nwellnhof was last seen in #parrot 14 hours 9 mins ago joining the channel.
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cotto msg kid51 Could you set up a poll for the next PDS time? It's coming up pretty quickly. 08:33
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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dalek rrot: 86dce60 | cotto++ | NEWS:
add a couple misc news items
 09:13
rrot: 778fb90 | cotto++ | CREDITS:
add gci students to CREDITS
rrot: e8dca43 | cotto++ | NEWS:
add more NEWS items, tweak formatting some more
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tadzik github.com/parrot/parrot/blob/e8dc...c/NEWS#L15 -- shouldn't that be "now lives"? 12:01
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dalek rrot: ea7ad98 | bacek++ | NEWS:
Fix typo. tadzik++
 13:00
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dalek p-rx: e657b28 | bacek++ | / (2 files):
Add default value for into RPA.join to follow Perl6 setting closely
 13:06
p-rx: 2613f07 | bacek++ | t/setting/01-resizablepmcarray.t:
Add test for RPA.map
 13:11
whiteknight good morning, #parrot 13:20
bacek whiteknight, aloha 13:24
whiteknight good morning, bacek. How are you doing today?
bacek whiteknight, very sleepy of first 25 minutes of today. It's Monday here already :) 13:25
whiteknight yeah, I've been up since 3:30 AM, so I'm very sleepy 13:26
but at least it isn't monday
bacek whiteknight, welcome to the future :) 13:27
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dalek tracwiki: v1 | whiteknight++ | WhiteknightTasklist 13:47
tracwiki: +a quick tasklist for myself. All the cool kids are doing it.
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/Whitekn...ction=diff
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dalek rrot/nqp_pct: 9ab0d4b | bacek++ | compilers/pct/src/POST/Compiler.pm:
Rewrite POST::Compiler.pir(POST::Op) to nqp.
 14:05
rrot/nqp_pct: b67fb0b | bacek++ | compilers/pct/src/POST/ (13 files):
Rebootstrap PCT
rrot/nqp_pct: a4db63e | bacek++ | compilers/pct/src/POST/Compiler.pm:
Rewrite POST::Compiler.hll_pir to nqp.
rrot/nqp_pct: d804e66 | bacek++ | compilers/pct/src/POST/ (13 files):
Rebootstrap PCT
rrot/nqp_pct: 851b54b | bacek++ | / (65 files):
Merge branch 'master' into nqp_pct
 14:06
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dalek rrot/imcc_cleanups: ca855f2 | Whiteknight++ | / (4 files):
implement the test for Parrot_api_serialize_bytecode_pmc. Fix some ARG modifiers to allow nulls, since we have logic in there to handle nulls
 14:15
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dalek tracwiki: jimmy++ | continuation-closure-passing.ps.gz attached to LoritoCPSTutorial 14:53
tracwiki: implementing a CPS code generator for ML
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/attachment/w...ction=diff
tracwiki: jimmy++ | stal-tic.pdf attached to LoritoCPSTutorial
tracwiki: <span class="icon">�</span>www.cs.cornell.edu/talc/papers/stal...</a>
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/attachment/w...ction=diff
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dalek p-rx/nom: c759804 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
Get basic case of multi-subs in place. Just handles lexical case and multis in nested scopes are probably busted still.
 15:03
p-rx/nom: 46a10cd | jonathan++ | t/nqp/51-multi.t:
Replace old multi-dispatch tests. Multi-method dispatch is now in a separate test file, added yesterday. 51-multi.t will now just test multi subs. Needs more tests, but does cover arity based dispatch and that the proto functions as it should - being called first then delegating to the multi-dispatcher.
 15:04
izkost: bca8b6c | qiuhw++ | Configure.pl:
The warning about "Perl is not built as a dynamic library" was actually never reported, fix it.

And the newest parrot_config don't have a 'cc_hasjit' key if it's empty.		 15:25
rrot: 48da21a | nwellnhof++ | t/src/embed/strings.t:
[t] Fix t/src/embed/strings.t with MSVC
 15:42
rrot/nqp_pct: 1f02017 | jimmy++ | compilers/pct/src/POST/Node.pm:
added missing =cut
mikehh I am getting a failure in t/pmc/float.t (g++ --optimize) - Failed test: 102 - comparison ops: cmp_p_p: equality (passes g++ without --optimize and gcc - Ubuntu 10.10 i386) 16:12
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kid51 mikehh: Unable to reproduce that on an older Debian, with all other arguments same as yours 16:45
mikehh kid51: looking at it - it works with g++ (no --optimize) and gcc with or without --optimize 16:47
I am using gcc/g++ 4.5.1 16:49
dalek rrot/imcc_cleanups: bd67e17 | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
add temporary .c files to .gitignore. Also, unlike temporary files used by tests
 16:54
rrot/imcc_cleanups: 255a8d8 | Whiteknight++ | / (5 files):
move -G commandline argument parsing from IMCC into the frontend
rrot/imcc_cleanups: 9c5ae86 | Whiteknight++ | compilers/imcc/ (2 files):
remove -w argument processing from IMCC. It's handled in the frontend
rrot/imcc_cleanups: 020e292 | Whiteknight++ | compilers/imcc/main.c:
do not Parrot_destroy in IMCC
rrot/imcc_cleanups: 2442dea | Whiteknight++ | compilers/imcc/main.c:
small cleanup
rrot/imcc_cleanups: b523125 | Whiteknight++ | compilers/imcc/ (2 files):
remove two dead functions
rrot/imcc_cleanups: b606d3d | Whiteknight++ | compilers/imcc/ (4 files):
Add in some notes to tell where various IMCC call-in functions are being used. Consolidate the register_compilers function
kid51 me: g++ --versiong++ (Debian 4.3.2-1.1) 4.3.2 16:58
dalek rrot: 147e2d8 | Whiteknight++ | DEPRECATED.pod:
add two deprecation notices
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kid51 clock 17:42
time
whiteknight aloha: clock 17:57
aloha: clock?
aloha whiteknight: LAX: Sun, 09:57 PST / CHI: Sun, 11:57 CST / NYC: Sun, 12:57 EST / UTC: Sun, 17:57 UTC / LON: Sun, 17:57 GMT / BER: Sun, 18:57 CET / TOK: Mon, 02:57 JST / SYD: Mon, 04:57 EST
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cotto good morning 18:27
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plobsing msg whiteknight: if there is not going to be a PASM compreg, perhaps we should deprecate PASM altogether. 18:30
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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cotto plobsing, that'll mean translating a lot of pasm tests. 18:38
plobsing cotto: I've done that a number of times already. Most tests in PASM don't depend on their language of implementation.
and those that do usually have duplicate PIR tests to ensure constructs work in both languages 18:39
but my main argument is that, if we are removing the visibility of PASM to hosted languages, we should take it away altogether to keep everyone on equal footing. 18:41
dalek tracwiki: v33 | cotto++ | CottoTasklist 18:43
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/CottoTa...ction=diff
cotto plobsing, M0 will need some kind of struct-like functionality. Do you think it'd be sane to base M0 structs on bytes? 18:56
cotto will think 18:59
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plobsing cotto: I think you should consider what kinds of elements M0 needs in those structs. I suspect it will consist of only a small set of types. M0 shouldn't need a fullblown ManagedStruct. 19:30
mikehh t/pmc/float.t - Failed test: 102 with g++ configured with --optimize (passes without and with gcc) on both Ubuntu 10.04 i386 and Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (g++ 4.4.3 and 4.5.1)
dalek TT #1971 created by rgrjr++: Oplib paths are truncated in PBC files 19:32
TT #1971: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1971
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dalek TT #1972 created by rgrjr++: Can't compile with TRACE_PACKFILE set 19:48
TT #1972: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1972
TT #1973 created by rgrjr++: pbc_merge fails silently
TT #1973: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1973
dukeleto ~~ 19:52
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dukeleto parrots4parties.com/ 20:02
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dalek TT #1974 created by rgrjr++: Fixing GMP check on 32-bit system exposes test failure 20:21
TT #1974: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1974
dukeleto trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/LoritoCPSTutorial looks useful 20:22
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dalek rrot: 3c1e33b | dukeleto++ | t/dynoplibs/trans.t:
[t][TT #1974] Fix GMP check and test skips in t/dynoplibs/trans.t, rgrjr++
 20:32
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dalek TT #1974 closed by dukeleto++: Fixing GMP check on 32-bit system exposes test failure 20:37
TT #1974: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1974
dukeleto the docs for test_more.pir were never updated to describe the new todo => "blarg" feature 20:50
dalek rrot: 7c15738 | dukeleto++ | NEWS:
[t] More NEWS updates
 20:52
dukeleto This is still a good read: www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2008...t_hac.html 21:13
mikehh dukeleto: your last commit missewd a branch around the skip - runs the tests and then tries to skip the tests 21:15
missed
fixed, shall I commit it? 21:19
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dalek rrot: c2077d1 | mikehh++ | t/dynoplibs/trans.t:
branch around skipped tests so they don't get skipped if they have been already tested
 21:26
dukeleto mikehh: thanks for fixing that 21:27
mikehh++
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mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#3141) fulltest) at 2_11_0-1163-gc2077d1 - Kubuntu 10.10 amd64 (g++-4.5 with --optimize) 21:45
dukeleto plobsing: any reason you assigned the Oplib TT to me? 21:46
plobsing nope. I suspect you get auto-assigned tasks tagged 'tools' 21:47
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plobsing I suspect cotto or bacek would be better people for the task, seeing as there is an ops2c bug. 21:48
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dukeleto plobsing: yeah, i don't know that I want to be auto-assigned tools tasks 21:50
plobsing yes, you appear as the owner of the 'tools' component in the Trac Admin page. Not sure how to change that. 21:54
bacek_at_work ~~ 22:19
plobsing, which bug? 22:20
cotto ohai 22:29
dukeleto, did you get a test from rgrjr? 22:32
ah. I see he filed a bug. It's nice to see something from him. 22:34
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dukeleto cotto: he filed 4 trac tickets this morning, iirc 22:40
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dukeleto cotto: 6guts.wordpress.com/2011/01/16/nqp-...t-and-jvm/ 22:48
cotto bacek_at_work, #1971
dukeleto, thanks. I'll read that as soon as I'm caught up with the bug queue 22:49
bacek_at_work cotto, it's not related to "tools", "ops2c" or whatever. It's some stupidity in loading libraries.
dukeleto 6model Overview: github.com/jnthn/6model/blob/maste...erview.pod
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spreadsheet Hello 22:52
So, if my understanding is correct, with other VMs like Java, you will need an additional runtime to run a program written in another languages besides Java, even though it's compiled JVM bytecode 22:53
With Parrot, will I need additional runtimes to run say, a Python program?
If I do, then is the runtime smaller than a regular Python interpreter?
dukeleto spreadsheet: parrot has a runtime, and all languages that run on parrot use that runtime 23:01
spreadsheet Ahh ok
dukeleto: if I wanted to have an interactive prompt, would that be possible?
dukeleto spreadsheet: yep
spreadsheet: rakudo perl 6, (perl 6 on parrot), has an interactive prompt when you run it with no arguments 23:02
spreadsheet ok
dukeleto spreadsheet: also, welcome to #parrot
spreadsheet Thanks
dukeleto spreadsheet: how did you hear about Parrot?
spreadsheet dukeleto: I heard about it because I heard about Perl 6 23:03
And rakudo perl
dukeleto spreadsheet: yeah, that is what happened to me too :)
cotto didn't know that
dukeleto spreadsheet: and to answer your question about bytecode, Parrot has it's own kind of bytecode, similar to the JVM's
spreadsheet So does it have as good scaling support, that is, for big websites, as Python or JVM? 23:04
Well Python, JVM is more mature
dukeleto cotto: i started out by getting a commit bit to the perl 6 spec test suite, and it only took me less than a day to run into a Parrot bug. The rest is history...
spreadsheet: you should think of Parrot as mostly a set of compilers and a runtime for languages to sit on
spreadsheet: you don't exactly write a website in Parrot or JVM 23:05
spreadsheet Well I know that
dukeleto spreadsheet: what do you mean by "scaling support" ?
spreadsheet I mean, say I have a Python website. It takes a lot of traffic. Then I have a Rakudo Perl site... would it be the same stability?
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dukeleto spreadsheet: define stability 23:06
spreadsheet: currently Rakudo Perl 6 is still getting huge performance improvements, so I wouldn't run a production website with it yet. But that is me.
spreadsheet not crashing because of memory problems, having memory leaks, performance 23:07
dukeleto spreadsheet: see above
spreadsheet Ok
dukeleto spreadsheet: both parrot and rakudo are getting lots of performance optimizations as we speak
spreadsheet: there is a new branch that will be merged post parrot 3.0 (due on tuesday) that makes Rakudo a lot faster and use less memory
spreadsheet dukeleto: if I had a GTK+ or Qt wrapper for Parrot, would I be able to use it with any language, like with the JVM? JVM libraries are able to be used by any language 23:08
dukeleto spreadsheet: that is the goal. I would say "yes, in theory", but there could be some rough edges still
spreadsheet: we have an opengl wrapper and postgresql wrapper in parrot, but they might need some love 23:09
spreadsheet So, in the future, does the Parrot community see Parrot as being the main way to run dynamic languages on Unix-like OS?
dukeleto spreadsheet: we would like to think so. But there are lots of other VMs for dynamic languages, such as Rubinius and NekoVM 23:10
spreadsheet: but Parrot is the only dynamic VM that wants to support all dynamic languages
spreadsheet: to my knowledge, everyone else makes some restrictions on how you implement the dynamic language. With Rubinius, you must use Ruby, for example. 23:11
spreadsheet: with Parrot, we try to make everything pluggable, so it is up to the language author to decide
spreadsheet: we give some tools, but any tools can be used, in theory :)
cotto I'd like to see a generation of dynamic language implementations that target Parrot but are mostly self-hosted.
dukeleto cotto: yes 23:12
cotto Some language cultures aren't going to want to get away from their language of choice, and who's to say that they're wrong.
dukeleto cotto: the perl 6 peeps sure do like to dogfood their compilers :) 23:13
moderator Parrot 2.11.0 Released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Goals: write GettingStartedWithPlumage, review html documentation, test HLLs, review deprecations | only critical fixes and documentation updates until after 3.0.0 23:14
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