Parrot 3.2.0 released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Parrot is accepted for GSoC 2011! Student application deadline is Apr 8
Set by moderator on 27 March 2011.
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cotto dukeleto, ping 01:11
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bubaflub ~ 01:14
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dalek rrot: c4d3f78 | petdance++ | src/pmc/imccompiler.pmc:
Consting and annotating
 02:52
rrot: 7190577 | petdance++ | / (5 files):
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:parrot/parrot
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dalek rrot: 46c2a2b | petdance++ | / (2 files):
Fixed up some function annotations. Removed outdated #define. Use STRINGNULL for our null strings.
 04:13
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whiteknight good morning, #parrot 12:51
bacek good evening, whiteknight 12:52
whiteknight 4l3x4nd3rDW
blah, wrong window
moritz please change that password :-)
whiteknight it's a work one. changes in a month anyway
bacek looks like a password :)
moritz and now it's in the public logs :-) 12:53
whiteknight are we ready/able to merge packfile_wrap?
moritz but +1 to using such strong passwords :-)
bacek whiteknight, I have no objections on merge it :)
whiteknight I tested the hell out of it yesterday
I didn't merge it last night because the rakudo spectests took too long 12:54
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bacek 1903.94user 75.16system 33:22.46elapsed 98%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 837552maxresident)k 12:54
on my box
whiteknight what's normal for master?
bacek mmm...
I think it's faster on master. Can't get exact values. 12:55
whiteknight I'm sure it's a little faster. I would be surprised if there was a huge difference
12:56 utsl_ is now known as utsl
bacek Let'me do a quick check on compiling core.pm 12:57
whiteknight for some value of "quick" 13:02
bacek: do you want to do the merge, or should I? 13:04
bacek aloha, clock? 13:05
aloha bacek: LAX: Mon, 06:05 PDT / CHI: Mon, 08:05 CDT / NYC: Mon, 09:05 EDT / UTC: Mon, 13:05 UTC / LON: Mon, 14:05 BST / BER: Mon, 15:05 CEST / TOK: Mon, 22:05 JST / SYD: Mon, 23:05 EST
whiteknight which one are you, SYD?
bacek whiteknight, I think it's safer if you'll merge it :)
yes, SYD
whiteknight okay, I'll start on it now
I'll run fulltest before I push 13:06
then Rakudo spectest after
of course, I'm giving blood in 10 minutes, so I might not be in condition to do this intelligently either :) 13:07
bacek whiteknight, mmm... Kind of bad news. --gc=gms isn't faster then ms2 anymore. 161 vs 166 seconds. 13:11
whiteknight why, because of the extra cost of using write barriers with packfiles?
bacek dunno
whiteknight okay, well, we can't do anything about it now
bacek writebarriers by it self are cheap.
whiteknight yeah 13:12
they are cheap to call, but may be expensive if we have to re-mark all the contents of a packfile
we have to get smarter about packfiles
and stop merging them all the time
bacek most likely because we are marking constants multiple times now
whiteknight yeah, that's my thought
we'll fix it after the release 13:13
bacek it can be... hard.
whiteknight I'm sure it will be hard
If we stop merging and updating packfiles, we can stop marking constants so much 13:14
and I think we can move to a smarter system after the release
bacek nope. If we have proper (fsvo) PackfileConstant PMC used internally 13:15
than we can stop marking constants multiple times
whiteknight yes, that would be good too
we are just out of time for fixing it now. We need 3.3 to be stable 13:16
bacek hmmm...
whiteknight and you need sleep!
brb. giving blood
bacek other possibility - I didn't make realclean. And was using gms all the time 13:17
msg whiteknight All clear. ms2 vs gms - 232 vs 166 actually. 13:25
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
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benabik ~~ 14:13
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whiteknight bacek: okay, much better 14:32
mergin 14:33
dalek rrot: e187a44 | Whiteknight++ | / (16 files):
Merge branch 'packfile_wrap'
ttbot Parrot dbf477e6 i386-linux-thread-multi make error tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/67253 14:38
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moritz wow, rakudo build failures 14:41
nopaste "moritz" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "rakudo build failures on latest parrot" (13 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/40772
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moritz hm, seems to be related to TT #443. 14:42
ttbot Parrot e187a446 MSWin32-x86-multi-thread make error tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/67286 14:43
Andy_ I just was in hll.c last night
that smells like me
moritz so, what should I replace the call to -#define Parrot_get_ctx_HLL_namespace Parrot_hll_get_ctx_HLL_namespace 14:44
sorry
jaffa4 to err is human
moritz what should I use instead of Parrot_get_ctx_HLL_namespace?
jaffa4: to mispaste is human too
Andy_ don't know, moritz. I didn't change any naming.
But I DID make one of the HLL functions return PMCNULL instead of NULL 14:45
jaffa4 not sure what you mean, moritz
moritz Andy_: ah, found it, never mind 14:46
Andy_ ok, good.
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Andy_ Especially since my code note says it was STRINGNULL I was returning. :-) 14:48
whiteknight seriously? Rakudo build failures now? 14:51
moritz whiteknight: seems unrelated to the merge, and I already have a fix
whiteknight ok
moritz whiteknight: Andy_++ removed a #define for a long deprecated function which rakudo hasn't bothered to fix 14:52
whiteknight moritz: you are the leading cause of high bloodpressure in parrot devs named "whiteknight"
:)
okay, that's not so bad
Andy_ moritz: Just doin' what the comment said. :-)
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moritz whiteknight: all I'm doing is actually *using* parrot :-) 14:53
Andy_ "I want you to delete me as hard as you can."
ttbot Parrot dbf477e6 i386-linux-thread-multi make error tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/67388
Andy_ Nice, huge swaths of splint errors go away with your merge, whiteknight .
whiteknight Andy_: is that what the comment actually said?
Andy_ whiteknight: No. It just said to delete me after 2.2
So using my awesome powers of numerical comparison, I determined that I should. 14:54
whiteknight okay, that does sound like the kind of ill-advised comment I might leave laying around
Andy_ Net change on splint warnings: 766 -> 740
whiteknight okay, nice
I'll have to spend some time playing with splint this coming cycle and see what I can make disappear 14:55
jaffa4 whiteknight: do you know parrot?
whiteknight jaffa4: I've heard of it
moritz Andy_: whatever the comment says, it's nicer to remove such things after a release (as opposed to directly before a release)
whiteknight jaffa4: you have a question?
moritz Andy_: no harm done in this case, just a general note
Andy_ moritz: fair enough.
moritz Andy_: since there's no canonical way to test if a project uses deprecated parrot features, rakudo generally uses some :-) 14:56
jaffa4 I investigated some problem
related to parrot on Windows
parrot did not find perl6
related files
whiteknight jaffa4: okay, do you know what the problem is?
jaffa4 I printed the path used to find the files 14:57
it is not clear where the path comes from
but it does not come from -I, - L
switches
Andy_ One new warning: include/parrot/api.h:25:1: Function Parrot_confess defined more than once src/exceptions.c:565:1: Previous definition of Parrot_confess 14:58
whiteknight those don't work on windows?
jaffa4 I did not check if they work
it is hazy how pbc files are found 14:59
by the parrot
How should that work anyway?
whiteknight yes, it is hazy. Should be better
jaffa4 I cannot tell it is wrong if I do not know how it should work
I can see it cannot find perl6.pbc file 15:00
and it does not use -I and -L
whiteknight jaffa4: what directory is the perl6.pbc file in? 15:03
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jaffa4 looking for it 15:08
ttbot Parrot dbf477e6 i386-linux-thread-multi make error tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/67517 15:10
jaffa4 perl6.pbc in rakudo directory 15:12
the program looks for them in 15:14
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moritz which on is the "rakudo directory"? 15:14
jaffa4 ctrl+v does not work 15:15
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moritz weird directory name 15:17
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jaffa4 pastebin.ca/2047814 15:31
as you can see 15:32
D:/src/rakudo/rakudo/parrot/runtime/parrot/languages/perl6/perl6.pbc
whiteknight jaffa4: okay, so it looks like it is searching in that location, from those debug statements you added 15:38
jaffa4 no
pbc file is in D:/src/rakudo/rakudo
whiteknight: 15:39
whiteknight right, that looks like the second-to-last entry that's spit out there
D:/src/rakudo/rakudo/parrot/runtime/parrot/languages/perl6/perl6.pbc
D:/src/rakudo/rakudo/parrot/runtime/parrot/languages/perl6/perl6.pbc (what you wrote earlier)
those two look the same to me
dukeleto ~~ 15:41
jaffa4 not sure what you mean 15:42
whiteknight jaffa4: I need to figure out if Parrot is searching in the right place, but not finding the file, or if it is not searching in the correct place 15:43
jaffa4: it looks to me like it is searching the correct directory, which means there is a problem with Parrot identifying a correct file
maybe I'm seeing something wrong
jaffa4 as I see it
the only problem is
that I cannot add a directory to this path 15:44
the search path
that is the only prlbem
cotto_work ~
whiteknight jaffa4: okay, and -I or -L do not work?
jaffa4 no
whiteknight okay, so that's the bug
jaffa4 there are 4 search paths 15:46
out of 3 I can influence
dalek rrot: 8393b95 | petdance++ | / (2 files):
annotate function pointers in the iterator
jaffa4 the forth is
PARROT_LIB_PATH_LANG
whiteknight hmmm 15:47
jaffa4 there is no command line switch for that 15:48
dalek rrot: 229a781 | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
Add experimental ability to modify PARROT_LIB_PATH_LANG with the -L commandline switch.
 15:54
rrot: 46922ae | Whiteknight++ | / (2 files):
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:parrot/parrot
jaffa4 ok
if I create a path
whiteknight jaffa4: there is a way now :). git pull and try it out
that commit is experimental, we may pick a better mechanism after the release. For now, use -L
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ttbot Parrot 8393b952 MSWin32-x86-multi-thread make error tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/67870 15:55
jaffa4 it is pretty easy
12 lines
to introduce a new switch
whiteknight jaffa4: yes, it is easy enough to add a new switch. I don't know if that's what we want 15:56
cotto_work which 12 is the question, though
jaffa4 I found what needs to be changed
whiteknight adding the switch to the frontend is no big deal. The problem is figuring out which API function to call
jaffa4 there is no api
but it can be made quickly
whiteknight right, do we make a new API function, or modify an existing one? 15:57
that's the question, and it's not one we should jump into without some planning and consideration
jaffa4 the similar ones are in api.c
see lien 612 15:58
almost copy and paste
whiteknight right. But that doesn't necessarily mean we want to copy+paste it again 15:59
and it certainly doesn't mean that those ones are right in the first place
copy+paste is more the hallmark of bad design, and not ease of duplication
(and I don't mind criticizing those, since I wrote them)
jaffa4 ok 16:02
think about it
ttbot Parrot 46922aec MSWin32-x86-multi-thread make error tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/67925 16:03
jaffa4 So what are you going to do now? 16:04
whiteknight:
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mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#14973) fulltest) at 3_2_0-406-ge187a44 16:09
Ubuntu 11.04 beta amd64 (g++ --optimize --gc=gms)
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dalek rrot: 9ae4a27 | dukeleto++ | NEWS:
Add a little meat to NEWS
 16:19
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dukeleto whiteknight: i see some smolder reports from Win32 that have some failing tests 16:28
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dukeleto i think PLATFORM needs to go the way of DEPRECATED.pod - 16:29
-> api.yaml
ttbot Parrot 9ae4a27f MSWin32-x86-multi-thread make error tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/68039
dalek rrot: c992322 | dukeleto++ | PLATFORMS:
Update netbsd x86_64 PLATFORM entry
dukeleto manually updating PLATFORM is very error prone
cotto_work dukeleto: what's OS Bridge's policy about speakers paying to attend the conference? 16:30
dukeleto for instance, our smoke reports don't report the OS version for some reason
cotto_work: speakers have always had the conf fee waived, in previous years
cotto_work: how are you getting to LFNW ?
cotto_work dukeleto: haven't thought about it, but driving seems reasonable 16:31
dukeleto: do you know when they decide which talks to accept? 16:34
whiteknight I actually cannot seem to get parrot to build right now on my windows box 16:35
we really need more automated building and testing on windows 16:37
dukeleto whiteknight++ # agreed 16:39
whiteknight that's a lesson we seem to remember the day before every release
dukeleto cotto_work: when OSB decides on talks? Not sure. It is kind of "when they feel like it"
cotto_work: i will probably be taking the train. I was thinking that perhaps we could meet up and continue by train there, and have a Hackathon On Rails 16:40
whiteknight "unresolved external symbol PMCNULL"
cotto_work punful
whiteknight great
dukeleto cotto_work: the train is $60 each way from PDX, i imagine it is much cheaper from Seattle. And you can code on the train :)
cotto_work this is true 16:41
dukeleto cotto_work: you up for something like that? It would be a great time for an M0 mind-meld
Andy_ "That's OK, son, you can do it on the boat!"
cotto_work I'll look into it, though I'll barely have time to think until Wed.
dukeleto cotto_work: no worries. I will let you know what my plans are, and you can do what ye will :) We will hack on stuff while we are at the conf, no doubt 16:42
cotto_work: have you figured out lodging stuff yet?
cotto_work nope
dukeleto neither
ttbot Parrot c9923220 MSWin32-x86-multi-thread make error tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/68098 16:43
jaffa4 What conference? 16:50
cotto_work LinuxFestNW
and later, Open Source Bridge in Portland
dalek rrot: 8bcd6a7 | Whiteknight++ | frontend/pbc_dump/main.c:
fix the build on windows. I don't know why this is an error, the compiler can clearly see the PMC_IS_NULL macro, but claims the PMCNULL variable is not defined. They are defined in the same file
 16:51
rrot: 836fe3b | Whiteknight++ | / (6 files):
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:parrot/parrot
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dukeleto whiteknight: let me know if you need any specifc platforms tested or if you need other help during the release process 16:55
whiteknight: i will attempt to improve NEWS as I see items for it
whiteknight yeah, I'm going to give NEWS a once-over tonight 16:56
dukeleto whiteknight: also, this might come in handy when writing your release announcement gist.github.com/925690
whiteknight oh nice
dukeleto whiteknight: that is from the git-extras utility, which you can find on github
whiteknight I may have to look into that
dukeleto finds link
whiteknight: github.com/visionmedia/git-extras 16:57
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whiteknight yeah, I already found it 16:57
dukeleto whiteknight: i added git summary $committish support to it :) 16:58
whiteknight oh nice
dukeleto whiteknight: it has many nice features. I need to use it more.
whiteknight: anyway, if anything goes pear-shaped before the release, let me know.
whiteknight: looks like we had 18 unique committers to the master branch in the last month 16:59
whiteknight: it would be very interesting to track that number each month, as a project vitality statistic
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whiteknight don't worry, if things start going crazy between now and tomorrow afternoon, I'll definitely call in a few favors 17:00
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mikehh rakudo (5ee8c3c) - builds on parrot (3_2_0-406-ge187a44) - make test, make spectest_smolder[(#14978), roast (ea701e8)] PASS 17:06
Ubuntu 11.04 beta amd64 (g++ --optimize --gc=gms)
27,636 ok, 0 failed, 606 todo, 1,800 skipped and 0 unexpectedly succeeded
dukeleto mikehh++ # rakudo testing 17:07
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dukeleto darbelo: werd up 17:09
mikehh dukeleto: seems to be considerably faster, build (make -j) 3m30.014s, first time in ages I got spectest_smolder (TEST_JOBS=4) to run under 20 min - 19m28.610s 17:11
dukeleto mikehh: very interesting 17:12
mikehh: i wonder if that has to do with recent branch merges
mikehh dukeleto: pretty much so yes - I have been testing all along (not every day though) 17:13
darbelo dukeleto: Hi. 17:15
How much did I miss in the past few days?
bubaflub mikehh: bacek mentioned the new GC helped out a lot 17:19
dukeleto darbelo: a few big branches were merged 17:20
darbelo: packfile_wrap and imcc_compreg_whatistname
bubaflub: how are finals?
bubaflub dukeleto: gettin' close - finished up a few classes this weekend 17:21
whiteknight neither of those two branches should have had a markedly beneficial impact on performance
in fact, I would expect small movement the other way
dukeleto whiteknight: perhaps they have a hidden synergy together
whiteknight there is some synergy. packfile_wrap is the bugfix branch for imcc_compreg_pmc
dukeleto bubaflub: what day are you totally done with finals? 17:22
darbelo Packfiles aren't a real bottleneck for HLLs.
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darbelo Nor is IMCC once the PIR is done compiling. 17:23
rohit_nsit08 hello #parrot.
whiteknight: hi 17:24
whiteknight: what is there in 'parrot' pmc?
mikehh whiteknight: there was a definite improvement (timewise) after the merge of imcc_compreg_pmc (ignoring the segfaults, which seem to have gone)
whiteknight mikehh: well, that's unexpected 17:25
not unwelcome, but unexpected
rohit_nsit08: I don't understand the question. "parrot" pmc?
rohit_nsit08 var arr =[1,2] generates PIR code root_new $P1, ['parrot';'ResizablePMCArray'] 17:26
i know the root_new and ResizablePMCArray
what is role of 'parrot'
ok found it in documentation 17:27
hll namespace
darbelo Slight misnomer, since parrot isn't a HLL. 17:29
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dukeleto rohit_nsit08: makes sense now? 17:41
whiteknight HLL namespaces are the top-level namespaces. All the default stuff is in the "parrot" namespace 17:44
in a Perl6 compiler, all the types would be in the "perl6" HLL
that way compilers don't overwrite things inside Parrot
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dukeleto mikehh: can you gist your script to test rakudo ? I want to steal it :) 17:48
rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: not exactly, are we defining the new object in a new namespace relative to the default root namespace? 17:49
the format of root_new is "root_new(out PMC, in PMC, in PMC) " 17:50
dukeleto rohit_nsit08: root_new creates a new PMC in the 'parrot' namespace of the type ResizablePMCArray
rohit_nsit08: basically, it creates a new parrot object
rohit_nsit08 ya the array object in this case 17:51
dukeleto rohit_nsit08: yes, we have many types of array objects, RPA is an array that can hold objects (PMCS) and also be resized
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rohit_nsit08 dukeleto: yes 17:52
and we can use inbuilt functions like sort() on the array object
dukeleto rohit_nsit08: as opposed to a FixedFloatArray, which is a fixed size and can only hold floats
rohit_nsit08: every PMC has an API to interact with it
rohit_nsit08: which are called "vtable functions" or "vtables" 17:53
rohit_nsit08: read this for an overview leto.net/dukeleto.pl/2011/02/parrot...agons.html
rohit_nsit08 I was going through the list of inbuilt functions in javascript which need to be implemented in compiler, most of them i have seen are available in pmc objects
like sort() for example
dukeleto rohit_nsit08: you can add any mehtod/function to a PMC, but all of them have a base API that can be added to 17:54
rohit_nsit08 I'm reading the API rightnow . Writing simple programs in winxed and learning from the PIR code generated by it
dukeleto rohit_nsit08++ # industrious :) 17:55
rohit_nsit08 thanks :-)
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dukeleto dmalcolm: welcome 17:57
dukeleto should probably finish his taxes 17:58
dmalcolm dukeleto: hi! 17:59
go finish your taxes! :)
davidfetter got them in before the deadline date this year 18:01
benabik davidfetter: Me too, although that's because the deadline was late. :-) 18:02
davidfetter heh
i paid a pro to prepare mine, and it was well worth it. that lady is magical
dukeleto I did the fed, but I have to submit to 2 states because of the whole telecommuting to another state crap. Blarg. 18:03
dmalcolm: what brings you to #parrot? I don't reckon I've seen you in here before
dmalcolm dukeleto: have lurked here for about a year, since allison's presentation of pynie at PyCon US last year (I'm mostly a python person, but am interested in dynamic language runtimes) 18:07
dukeleto: now stop procrastinating and finish your taxes! :-P
dukeleto dmalcolm: i see. we have a very nice GSoC proposal for Python on Parrot. Exciting times. 18:08
dukeleto attempts to finish his taxes
whiteknight taxes are for the weak! 18:22
it's easy to say that when my taxes are already done :) 18:25
I've learned a valuable lesson this year. I will never do my own taxes again. 18:39
cotto_work I didn't find it to be that much of a pain using an online service. 18:42
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davidfetter sadly, my situation was complicated, but not "hire a bevy of tax attorneys" complicated 18:51
dalek sella/test_asserter: bd15f88 | Whiteknight++ | s (4 files):
fixes so test asserter starts building
 18:59
cotto_work dukeleto: did you see "git can't be made consistent"? bramcohen.livejournal.com/74462.html 19:18
Is there a warning we should put in the git workflow docs about that? 19:19
whiteknight is it something that requires a warning?
cotto_work seems to be 19:20
whiteknight I didn't think so
cotto_work though it doesn't match our standard workflow
whiteknight I read it as non-git-users, complaining about something which they find foreign
benabik cotto_work: Does that post boil down to "don't do criss-cross merges?"
cotto_work benabik: that's how I read it.
I can see that very occasionally being an issue. 19:21
whiteknight I still don't think it's an issue worth mentioning. Proper use of a tool is inherent in the tool itself 19:23
at least, what constitutes proper use
cotto_work For rare and unusual cases, I'm fine with "Don't Do That".
benabik cotto_work: That's a fairly well known axiom on git-list. General rule of thumb is to merge from master to branch and once branch is merged to master, stop using the branch (or base the branch on the merge in master).
cotto_work benabik: did I mention I'm excited for your gsoc project? You seem like you'll work well with bacek. 19:25
Tene I don't see any actual problems described there. When merging, you should understand what you're merging and how you want it to behave, and in every case, git allows you to get exactly what you want.
benabik cotto_work: Not directly to me, but I do read the comments on my proposal. Thanks for your vote of confidence. :-) 19:26
Tene git won't magically do the right thing in all cases, as that's impossible. Its heuristic when otherwise-unspecified is right for the majority of normal cases.
cotto_work Sounds like the consensus is that it's not likely to be a problem. I'm happy leaving it at that. Thanks. 19:27
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whiteknight blah, every once in a while I am seeing exception backtraces which contain the entire PIR code literal of the input file, instead of the file name 19:33
and thats...wrong 19:34
I'm already looking forward to debugging that one
Tene Haha, awesome. 19:37
nopaste "whiteknight" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "backtrace awesomeness" (101 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/40821
whiteknight the pir code is the file name, and the line number is all sorts of special
benabik whiteknight: I wonder if the line number is the pointer to the current byte... 19:38
whiteknight benabik: I'm sure it's either a pointer or some random uninitialized value
dukeleto cotto_work: I would say that there isn't much useful info in that post. It is mostly buzzwords and bad workflows 19:39
cotto_work: for instance, I routinely merge master into leto/embed_grant and occasionally merge leto/embed_grant into master, and I have not been set on fire yet
cotto_work: granted, that is a 1 person workflow. If multiple people were doing that, it would be possible to run into problems 19:40
benabik dukeleto: Bram really likes the darcs (history is sum of patches) worldview and appears to be attempting to get git (history is snapshots) to match it.
dukeleto cotto_work: but multiple people doing that is a bad idea
benabik: the FUD to signal ratio in that post is quite high 19:41
benabik: i guess if he likes darcs, he should stick with darcs :)
benabik dukeleto: That's much my view.
dukeleto: Although he, like many other, thinks everyone thinks like him. So he's convinced everyone else has just drank the git kool-aid instead of realizing that some of us prefer the snapshot method. 19:42
Anyway, I gotta go... stupid school getting in the way of IRC. ;-) 19:45
dukeleto benabik: yes. If I never had to hear another "git is designed totally wrong because it doesn't act like svn/hg/darcs" conversation again, it would be too soon.
benabik dukeleto++
dukeleto benabik: take it easy. I expect awesome things from you soon :)
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whiteknight seriously. days before GSoC is no time to be acting competent 19:46
last thing anybody needs is to set the bar too high for themselves
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whiteknight heh, I've already figured out that bug 20:04
fix should be easy too 20:05
dalek rrot: 6dddd87 | Whiteknight++ | compilers/imcc/ (6 files):
fix IMCC_push_parser_state so that backtraces don't contain the full source code of PIR code literals being compiled
 20:14
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whiteknight I would like to find out what that line number is still so far off 20:20
the PIR code STRING literal is maybe 100 lines long, and IMCC_push_parser_state resets the line count to 1
so that number makes very very little sense 20:21
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soh_cah_toa i don't mean to interrupt whatever's being discussed here but i'm curious about the parrot developer summit. i'm filling out my doodle know 20:26
how long is the pds? b/c of the fact the it's called a "sumit", i'm guessing there's something special about it 20:27
how is it different from an ordinary #parrotsketch meeting?
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sorear it's an extra special #parrotsketch 20:27
a lot of people have awkward schedules
we know they can only make 4 weekly meetings a year, not 52
soh_cah_toa is special == long in that statement? 20:28
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: it is kind of like a town hall meeting
sorear so, we designate 4 meetings as "if you have to make only 4, make these 4"
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: both special and long :)
sorear as an indirect consequence, PDSes tend to be longer and much more active
soh_cah_toa are we talking 1-3 hours? all day? 20:29
20:29 whiteknight left
soh_cah_toa b/c time wouldn't matter on the weekends. weekdays will require some planning 20:30
sorear I'd say 2-4 hours 20:31
soh_cah_toa oh, that's not bad
so what kind of things go on duringg pds?
as someone new to parrot, what would i be most excited about? 20:32
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bubaflub soh_cah_toa: discussion about future direction 20:39
soh_cah_toa: setting roadmap goals for upcoming releases
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soh_cah_toa bubaflub: okay 20:40
bubaflub soh_cah_toa: and standard PS stuff - ask questions, talk about new projects, hash out ideas
soh_cah_toa bubaflub: alright, so it is pretty much just a glorified #parrotsketch 20:44
bubaflub soh_cah_toa: yes; more structured
soh_cah_toa bubaflub: that's good. i've been wanting to play a more active role in development and be responsible for something. it sounds like pds can help me there 20:47
bubaflub soh_cah_toa: yessir. they'll probably mention a few roadmap items and you can volunteer to work on one of em 20:48
(or more if that's your fancy)
soh_cah_toa bubaflub: how often do we have pds's? 20:49
bubaflub i think 4 times a year?
soh_cah_toa bubaflub: alright 20:52
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dukeleto PROTIP: All the free tax filing websites don't support telecommuting across state boundaries and having to do multiple state returns. FAIL. 21:00
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bubaflub dukeleto: you have to file multiple state returns for telecommuting? i'm not looking forward to that next year... 21:01
dukeleto bubaflub: depends on the state. 21:02
bubaflub: i sincerely suggest that you pay someone to do your taxes next year
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utsl dukeleto: I use an online double-entry accounting system, xero.com 21:14
it makes dealing with that shit easy
then you just need to get an accountant to log in and check it come return time
dukeleto utsl: sounds useful. 21:20
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utsl the most useful part is the way it just gets fed your transactions and you just mark them as this expense, that expense 21:20
reduces the monthly work to a few clicks
issues & tracks invoices... 21:21
dukeleto utsl: very nice. I will definitely look into it.
utsl it has an api too - so services like minutedock.com have cropped up
which lets you microblog your invoice item 21:22
s
dukeleto utsl: good lord.
utsl kind of like twitter, except you get paid
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ttbot Parrot c9923220 MSWin32-x86-multi-thread make error tt.taptinder.org/cmdinfo/68642 21:41
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dukeleto officially hates all tax software and puts a curse upon their houses 22:03
davidfetter really feels for the people who make tax software, as their deadlines are real and serious 22:05
most people don't have dealines /per se/. more like "sick lines" or even "slightly under the weather lines"
...as in if you don't ship before date X, the sky doesn't actually fall
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cotto_work April 14th doesn't slip 22:14
;]
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mikehh dukeleto: git://gist.github.com/926337.git 22:16
dukeleto mikehh: thanks, I can turn those instructions into a script :) 22:17
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: about the cwd/path issue...you mentioned i should try writing a test. forgive me for not knowing much about testing but what would i need to test? 22:19
cotto_work soh_cah_toa: that would a fairly involved test to write. Don't feel obligated to worry about it. 22:22
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soh_cah_toa cotto_work: okay, i'm still getting used to the concept of unit testing. i wish more schools covered it. anyway, should i just wait until wednesday, after 3.3 release, to submit a patch? 22:24
cotto_work soh_cah_toa: you can submit now. We won't apply it until we're ready (or we can put it in a branch until post-3.3) 22:28
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: okay
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: if you have questions about testing, let me know 22:36
soh_cah_toa dukeleto: well, the main thing i'm struggling w/ is...what do i test? 22:37
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: this is a very rough draft of an essay about testing that I am writing: github.com/leto/writing/blob/maste...ia_book.md (forgive any typos and such. it was just a dump)
soh_cah_toa: read that essay skeleton and then come ask me questions. Deal?
soh_cah_toa: but the short answer about this specific situation is: change how parrot looks for libraries in the CWD, and then right a test that verifies it "does the right thing" 22:38
soh_cah_toa: or just add a test for what happens now
soh_cah_toa: feedback on that writing is greatly appreciated 22:41
soh_cah_toa: let me know what doesn't make sense or needs defining
soh_cah_toa dukeleto: sure
dukeleto: so far, one typo: They are like jetpacks for devevlopers. 22:43
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soh_cah_toa dukeleto: you should definitely include some sample code and examples 22:46
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: i am going for very general advice. I don't want it to be specific to any particular programming language or software 22:48
soh_cah_toa: but your point is well-taken. I am sure more specific documents would be a good addition
soh_cah_toa dukeleto: okay
dukeleto: one of the things that's bothering me now is the phrase "units". what defines a unit?
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: that is touched upon at the end
soh_cah_toa: unit doesn't have a definition. Every situation defines it's own "unit", basically. 22:49
soh_cah_toa: it isn't pleasant, but it is the truth.
soh_cah_toa: most often, a "unit" is a function or method.
soh_cah_toa: but it can be different.
soh_cah_toa dukeleto: this whole testing thing feels weird. apparently, everyone feels that it's a very important part of development. however, no schools teach it and anybody that is good w/ testing has a hard time explaining it b/c it's so abstract 22:51
dukeleto: i'm almost embarrased that i've never studied it before b/c it's apparetly very important 22:53
dukeleto: it feels like i missed a fundamental part of programming. as if i wrote code for years w/o knowing what a variable was 22:55
dukeleto soh_cah_toa: very few schools teach testing, you are not alone
soh_cah_toa: it is the difference between academia and Getting Shit Done 22:56
soh_cah_toa: academics never have to deal with those silly problems like supporting multiple OS's or dependencies changing out from under you
soh_cah_toa dukeleto: yes! i know! 22:57
dukeleto: why the heck not!? is that not what we're preparing for?
cotto_work Calling code "academic" isn't usually a compliment. 22:58
soh_cah_toa cotto_work: elaborate 22:59
cotto_work That usually means that it's hacky, highly platform-specific and only really proves that something can be done rather than providing a production-quality solution. 23:00
not all the time, of course
and to be fair, professors' goals usually involve publishing rather than build and maintaining 23:01
*building
dukeleto cotto_work: academic CS people are mostly mathematicians. They care more about existence and uniquenes (as well as algorithmic complexity) more than maintaining code. 23:03
dukeleto has to dip out
soh_cah_toa: if you have more feedback about the test essay, please send me an email
soh_cah_toa dukeleto: sure
kid51 Question: I see a lot of commit activity to master today -- much more than in the past few days. What does that represent? 23:06
reversion of compreg_imcc merge? 23:07
Lots of changes to imcc and src/ files. 23:08
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whiteknight I definitely want an abstract parallelization system for Parrot like what is described in that TBB module dukeleto pointed out 23:30
kid51 whiteknight: Which subset of the tests run during 'make test' would be most revealing with respect to --gc=gms? 23:33
whiteknight I don't know. our test suite is notorious for not exercising GC well enough 23:34
the ops2c parse tests might be the best for that
kid51 i.e., sad to say, our *slowest* tests 23:35
cotto_work The best way to exercise gc is to create lots of garbage. It's hard to write a test to deliberately do that as effectively as something like Rakudo. 23:36
whiteknight that's how you exercise GC, by running the program for a long time
kid51 cotto_work So, are you saying that Rakudo is excellent for creating garbage? ;-) 23:37
cotto_work In the best way possible. 23:38
whiteknight this really was a boring month, as far as master was concerned 23:56
petdance++ going apeshit crazy on our splint warnings like a beast 23:57
but it's hard to put that into NEWS in a way that actually makes sense
we should rename parrot to "petdance's big virtual machine with few warnings" 23:58
cotto_work some days it seems that way 23:59

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