Parrot 2.10.1 Released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Long live Git! github.com/parrot/parrot | git clone git://github.com/parrot/parrot.git | Please test rakudo with bleeding edge parrot!
Set by moderator on 2 December 2010.
nopaste "bluescreen" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "implementation of Parrot_api_get_compiler" (14 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/26394 00:00
bluescreen that's a preview of the function
00:01 donaldh left
whiteknight I thought there was something like that already. give me a few minutes to look 00:03
bluescreen sure.. 00:04
00:07 TypeNameHere_____ joined
whiteknight hmm... I can't find the function I am looking for 00:12
somewhere the PIR compreg is created, and I can't find it 00:13
src/embed.c:Parrot_compile_string looks similar, but not the same
and there is some compreg stuff in src/interp/inter_misc.c
that Parrot_api_get_compiler function looks good 00:14
Actually, create Parrot_get_compiler in inter_misc.c, that would be best 00:15
bluescreen parse_utils.c 00:23
whiteknight oh, let me look there in a minute (building now)
bluescreen whitenknight: then 2nd question... 00:24
should we expose a Parrot_api_compreg
that way we would allow our embbeders to use their own c compilers
but... we have to expose couple more strctures
whiteknight what other structures? We should be able to return a compiler PMC 00:25
bluescreen sorry, maybe we don't need to export anything else with PMC we're fine..
whiteknight ok
yes, a Parrot_api_get_compiler would be good 00:26
Parrot_api_set_compiler too
bluescreen ok
whiteknight (and we will use Parrot_api_set_compiler in src/main.c to add in the PIR and PASM compilers to libparrot)
bluescreen that will require from embbeders to know the internals of the interp..
and they have to return a sub pmc 00:27
00:27 TypeNameHere_____ left
bluescreen look at compilers/example/japh.c 00:27
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rfw hi again whiteknight 00:29
whiteknight where is parse_utils.c?
hello rfw
rfw came to claim another task for parrot :D
the y-combinator one
whiteknight rfw: really? awesome
rfw www.google-melange.com/gci/task/sho...9130819823 00:30
whiteknight Y-Combinator is slightly crazy, so don't worry if it doesn't make sense
I still don't always understand it
rfw lol
bluescreen compilers/imcc/parse_utils.c
whiteknight ah, I was in the wrong folder 00:31
yeah, there it is. That's where it compregs the PIR and PASM compiler 00:32
bluescreen yeah
whiteknight oh damnit. Parrot_compreg takes a raw C function pointer 00:33
that is unacceptable
bluescreen yeah
why... sorry my complete ignorance
00:33 theory joined
whiteknight ...I changed the error-handling stuff, and now miniparrot doesn't link 00:36
and I can't figure out why not
oh, nevermind. realclean fixed it 00:38
builds! Testing 00:40
bluescreen then... missing functions "Parrot_api_load_language", "Parrot_api_get_compiler", "Parrot_api_compile_file", "Parrot_api_set_compiler" do you agree? 00:41
whiteknight I don't think we need Parrot_api_compile_file, right? I mean, we already give them the compiler object 00:42
and different compiler objects may have different interfaces, so Parrot_api_compile_file won't always know how to compile
I think we need to just pass them the compiler PMC and let them use it
what we do need to do is make a Parrot_api_call_method, which should basically be a copy of Parrot_ext_call 00:43
and once we have that, we can do any methods we want
bluescreen mmm ok... 00:45
so its their responsibility to call ".compile"
whiteknight yes
the PIR and PASM compiler PMCs don't have ".compile"
bluescreen yeah...
00:46 theory left
bluescreen so we return an NCI PMC 00:46
sorear why don't we standardize the compilation interface?
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dukeleto yes please! 00:46
sorear the IMCC PMC can support VTABLE_invoke for compatibility
s/can/must/
but we don't need a dep cycle to add a .compile method
whiteknight sorear: it's not a matter of just adding a .compile method. We would need to lay out exactly what we want a compiler object to do 00:47
if you want to put together a proposal, that would go a long way
rfw what does error:imcc:The opcode 'sub_i_p_ic' (sub<3>) was not found. mean 00:48
rather
what is sub_i_p_ic
bluescreen rfw, thats an pir opcode, that takes 3 parameters 00:50
dukeleto rfw: you are trying to subtrac a PMC and an integer constant
rfw ah
dukeleto rfw: and store it in an int. There is no opcode for that.
rfw: i = int, p = pmc, ic = integer constant
rfw yeah had a feeling it was something silly
dukeleto rfw: it happens a lot to me too :)
rfw didn't realize it was quite that silly
hm can i define the return type of a function in winxed? 00:52
or cast from pmc to num
sorear dukeleto: Why isn't there a sub_i_p_ic opcode?
bluescreen whiteknight: STRING * const sc = CONST_STRING(interp, "PJt"); what is the calling convention 00:54
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bluescreen what does PJt means 00:54
sorear whiteknight: we already have one of those. I 100% support "baby steps" towards IMCC supporting PDD-31 compreg object API 00:55
bluescreen: look in nci.dat there's a comment header
whiteknight There are two "dialects" of function signatures. NCI signatures (like what you have there) are stupid
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whiteknight P is PMC, J is interpreter, t is some kind of integer I think 00:55
sorear extra_thunks.nci
whiteknight the first item is the return value, so PMC * func(Interp *interp, ...) 00:56
sorear # t - character string (0-terminated)
rfw how do i cast a pmc to int?
sorear VTABLE_get_integer_native(INTERP, pmc)
whiteknight rfw: INTVAL i =VTABLE_get_integer(interp, pmc)
rfw ah
whiteknight oh, get_integer_native maybe
rfw interp?
what's the interp parameter 00:57
sorear struct Parrot_Interpreter *interp
reference to all global data
rfw oh
bluescreen so... having the compiler registered, then we don't need the Parrot_api_call_method... as the compreg is pointing to the compile method only 00:59
whiteknight no, the compreg points to the compiler object 01:00
that object may have several methods .compile, .parse, etc
rfw oh 01:01
er
wrong window
whiteknight rfw: the interp is the thing that runs stuff in parrot 01:02
sorear see PDD-31 for the details on compiler objects and all the methods they support
except for IMCC, which doesn't support PDD-31 at all
whiteknight rfw: interp is the first argument to most functions. Just make sure to pass it around everywhere
sorear and returns a NCI function, not an object at all 01:03
whiteknight sorear: Right. IMCC is bad
and everything it does is terrible
and anybody who likes it is wrong
sorear ...did I say something wrong? 01:04
whiteknight no
unless you like IMCC, then you are wrong 01:05
otherwise, you're cool
rfw uh oh, infinite recursion
dalek rrot: 6d5595e | (Gerd Pokorra)++ | README:
change to Fedora package name
 01:06
rfw hm i keep getting infinite loops when implementing a y-combinator 01:08
probably doing something really wrong
whiteknight rfw: at least it's recursing! 01:10
rfw heh
whiteknight you have your code? nopaste it
nopaste?
aloha: nopaste?
aloha nopaste? 01:11
rfw in a bit
whiteknight DAMNIT
aloha nopaste
aloha: nopaste
dukeleto nopaste.snit.ch/ 01:12
nopaste "rfw" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "y-combinator in winxed" (38 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/26395 01:14
whiteknight rfw: very nice! 01:15
rfw whiteknight: also very broken!
whiteknight Post the error message you are getting?
rfw just infinite recursion
maximum recursion depth exceeded
whiteknight try it with a lower number than 6? 01:16
start at the bottom. Try factoral(0), factorial(1), factorial(2)
I dont know what the recursion depth is set at
rfw i think it's something broken in my implenetation 01:18
ah whoops there is 01:19
silly me
dalek rrot/embed_api2: 2483c68 | Whiteknight++ | / (16 files):
implement the new error-handling mechanism. Instead of a string, we pass out the raw exception object for the embedder to query. Add some helper API functions. Parrot_x_exit should now only be called when actually exiting. For most operations, we should call the new Parrot_x_jump_out instead
whiteknight I don't even have winxed installed here right now 01:20
I install/uninstall parrot so often
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whiteknight bluescreen: check out that commit! two tests still fail, but I think they are stupid 01:23
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rfw hm whiteknight 01:25
it works fine in JS
i think winxed is broken 01:26
whiteknight okay, that's a result 01:27
rfw pastebin.com/vT6M4aaX
er 01:28
that's the JS implementation
whiteknight the task was only to see if it would work, not to make it work
rfw haha
pastebin.com/GtjWrdei there's the winxed implementation
which is the same with a few types thrown around 01:29
whiteknight I suspect winxed is not handling lexicals correctly then
rfw my formatting makes it look like a sideways-M combinator more than anything 01:30
whiteknight: so, is this a pass? 01:33
whiteknight rfw: yes. Let me mark it 01:34
rfw \\o/
oh also
something i noticed
whiteknight rfw: change the task to NeedsReview
rfw oh 01:35
question, though: if you declare a function in the global scope, can you not use the name as a variable in another function scope?
since winxed puked a bit when i declared factorial_y as a function outside of main
cotto_work We have two of the top three ranking gci students hacking on our stuff. Nice. 01:36
01:36 bluescreen left
whiteknight rfw: that's a good question. I don't know the answer 01:36
I'll have to ask NotFound (he's Winxed's creator)
rfw cotto_work: first place guy just writes a bucketload of asm functions for x264 :(
whiteknight rfw: I'm going to use your work to open a ticket for Winxed
rfw ah 01:37
cool
whiteknight rfw: we're coming up with new tasks every day. Keep checking back with us, and we will keep you stocked with good tasks
rfw will do :)
whiteknight awesome 01:38
rfw++
cotto_work rfw: well, one of them does ;]
rfw cotto_work: heh
whiteknight msg NotFound a student wrote the Y-Combinator in Winxed and it broke. PRobably a bug in Winxed not handling lexicals correctly. I'll open a ticket for you, and can try to help fix it 01:39
cotto_work rfw: is there anything you especially like hacking on? I'm trolling through parrot's tickets tonight looking for gci tasks.
rfw trolling tickets? 01:40
that's a funny way to phrase it
but uh, not really
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kid51 msg fbrito If you ever run out of GCI tasks, we have several pertaining to translation of our web pages into Spanish 01:48
(hmm, no/slow response from aloha) 01:49
whiteknight yes, aloha is being very disappointing tonight 01:52
cotto_work aloha: aloha? 01:55
fbrito kid51: spanish? :s 01:56
what about brazilian portuguese? :D 01:57
kid51 fbrito I got the impression you were a native Spanish speaker
Was that wrong?
fbrito Yes :P. I am from Brazil :)
kid51 Which city?
fbrito in the easternmost city in the Americas 01:58
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo%C3%A3o_Pessoa
kid51 Recife? Belo Horizonte?
fbrito Really close to Recife 01:59
(120km)
cotto_work Nice. You're right on the coast. 02:00
kid51 Ah, somehow I thought you were from Buenos Aires.
cotto_work kid51: you're thinking of darbelo 02:01
kid51 In any case, on our Google Code In wiki page there are several tasks for translation of our web pages, etc., in various languages.
cotto_work the originator of our proud tradition of naming branches *_massacre
kid51 I don't know if Portuguese was listed there, but, hey, it wouldn't hurt!
cotto_work: Yes, I know darbelo's from there. I thought we had picked up a second Argentine Parrot hacker. 02:02
Instead, we picked up our first Brazilian!
cotto_work well, he picked us
kid51 In any case, we have at least one European Portuguese contributor who could double-check any translations fbrito did. 02:03
cotto_work either way, awesome
kid51 namely, ambs
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dalek TT #1879 created by whiteknight++: Deprecate Parrot_compreg 02:08
TT #1879: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1879
02:08 mikehh left
fbrito rfw: congrats :D. you are now in the 2nd/1st place :D 02:11
rfw fbrito: i was there before too ^^
well 02:12
before before
fbrito rfw: have you tried those tasks related to ganeti-webmgr? 02:17
rfw ah no 02:18
not yet
i'm running windows so it's a bit of a pain
and i'm not going to run VMs in my VMs lol
fbrito there are sooo many of them, and really easy ones (basic things with python for web)
but setting the environment is REALLY hard... realy
rfw yeah
fbrito really*
rfw i'm just making a "how to install dragonflybsd" screencast right now
fbrito I had to recompile my kernel like 3 times to get xen working
rfw haha yeah 02:19
fbrito wow, Parrot tasks are getting harder and harder :) 02:25
whiteknight fbrito: sorry! We used up all the easy ones that we could think about 02:26
we need to come up with more tasks
fbrito no! its a good thing
whiteknight it's your fault. If you guys weren't so good, we wouldn't offer harder tasks
fbrito this contest is about students helping open source, and not the other way around :P 02:27
cotto_work fbrito, your next gci task is to write a PIR program to demonstrate P=NP by decrypting an SSL connection on the fly 02:28
dalek rrot/embed_api2: 6e591fa | Whiteknight++ | src/ (2 files):
fix some remaining issues where we were still caling Parrot_io_eprintf in die_from_exception. Now all error message/backtrace stuff is done through the API. However, the formatting is off and a few tests are barfing because they are trying to regex match the error message format.
whiteknight I'll add more tasks tomorrow. Right now, bed.
goodnight
fbrito good night :) 02:29
02:29 whiteknight left
fbrito cotto_work: ahhaha, ok. how many points? 02:30
bacek_at_work fbrito, www.getacoder.com/projects/solve%20...32036.html 02:36
500-1000 bucks apparently :)
And this one just arrived in my Google.Reader i.imgur.com/ixZ9o.jpg :) 02:37
fbrito ahahahhahahahaha 02:41
"problem?" ahha, I really like "troll science" (knowyourmeme.com/memes/troll-scienc...l-physics) 02:42
02:47 mikehh_ is now known as mikehh
mikehh opbots, names 02:47
fbrito we should be able to claim another task while we have a task marked as NeedsReview :( 02:55
dalek rrot/tt532_headerizer_refactor: 277b983 | jkeenan++ | / (3 files):
Refactor some code out of Object.pm into new Functions.pm subroutine handle_split_declaration(). Write tests for all execution paths of that subroutine.
 02:56
rrot/tt532_headerizer_refactor: 92f3471 | jkeenan++ | lib/Parrot/Headerizer/Functions.pm:
Eliminate an implicit, but unreachable branch in handle_split_declaration().
 03:04
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fbrito I created a account on Parrot Trac in order to edit a wiki page but it seems that I don't have permissions to do that 03:24
an account* 03:25
cotto dukeleto, ^ 03:26
fbrito There is a task about updating a wiki page... But don't worry... it is not really important. I still have to wait until tomorrow to get a work on another task reviewed. 03:29
nopaste "kid51_" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "embed_api2 branch: Build failure in src/embed/api.c, observed on Darwin/PPC at 6e591fa6" (328 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/26400
03:50 plobsing joined
Coke fbrito: I can grant perms, momentito. 04:03
fbrito No, wait :P
Coke uid? 04:04
hokay.
fbrito I am locked to another task :~
Anyway, I think that this wiki task is overrated. There are like just 3 or 4 lines that need to be updated 04:05
04:08 kid51_ left
fbrito In my opinion it should be marked as "easy" :P 04:13
dukeleto fbrito: you need anything? 04:18
fbrito dukeleto: no, thank you. I am waiting for review on my task on another project 04:19
cotto dukeleto, can you give trac users wiki editing bits?
fbrito I started working on this Parrot task: www.google-melange.com/gci/task/sho...9130043418 but according to GCI rules I am not supposed to work on a task that I have not claimed, and since I can't claim tasks while I still have a task on NeedReview, I am doing nothing :( 04:22
cotto fbrito, which task is awaiting approval? 04:25
fbrito GNOME task :P Submitting a patch to add text/x-prolog mimetype to shared-mime-info project
rfw oh 04:26
hi fbrito
cotto ah. nothing we can do about that
fbrito So GEdit can identify if a *.pl file is Perl or Prolog
cotto it's definitely no good that you can get blocked like that
fbrito I will start working on the Parrot task and if anyone claim it, I just share my work with him and done 04:27
cotto wfm 04:28
have you been waiting for the gnome folks for long?
fbrito no, no :P 04:29
but I think there is only 1 guy responsible for the gnome tasks there, and he is sleeping right now
cotto Really? I'd expect them to have half a dozen people involved. 04:31
fbrito Hm, true. I think the guy I contacted is only responsible for the Gnome/Gedit tasks 04:34
rfw: may I ask something? on which task are you working right now? :) 04:39
rfw Create a brief video, similar to a rails-cast or one of the many other well put together how-to videos common on the internet today, detailing the entire installation process of DragonFlyBSD.
taking some time off coding
fbrito ahha, nice 04:40
rfw have fun with your gnome task
haven't played with it in a while
fbrito I gave up all the screencasts tasks because my english sucks :(
rfw heh yeah, some tasks are rather unfairly biased 04:41
especially those apertium ones
fbrito ahahah. translating to czench, slovenian, greek, ukrainian, danish, faroese, friulian, slovak... 04:42
rfw yeah :( 04:43
oh wow
fbrito the only documentation related task that I did was writing this page: docs.limesurvey.org/tiki-index.php?...Wiki+Pages
rfw you've done a fair few tasks for parrot
fbrito yes. I am in love with parrot :) 04:44
rfw hehe yeah
i'm loving parrot too
fbrito but not even close to the kind of tasks that the 1st guy did
rfw hah yeah
fbrito he has ALL (100%) the same task :D 04:45
rfw i'm still waiting for someone from google to show up in #x264dev
cotto is that on freenode?
rfw and say "look you're not allowed to add asm tasks anymore"
cotto: yes
cotto joins and and expectantly prepares some popcorn 04:46
not that it's likely
rfw heh
it's just mostly jumpyshoes talking about asm 04:47
fbrito ahha
what about the playtest tasks? have you take a look on them? 04:50
rfw oh hell no
i can't play games for peanuts :p
fbrito they usually request previous experience in the game 04:51
rfw yeah, tactical games aren't my kettle of fish 04:52
i mostly (read: only) play shmups, since i'm relatively good at them and i don't lose self-esteem after playing them online
fbrito :P 04:53
wow, I can't find those tasks on the list anymore :o. how is that possible? there were almost 10 from The Battle for Wesnoth
rfw i guess people took them all
fbrito long time ago I used to play a lot (starcraft, CS, warcraft, mmo rpgs, ...) but when I started to code I got so addicted that I couldn't stop :P 04:54
rfw hah 04:55
04:55 davidfetter joined
cotto allison, ping 04:56
dukeleto, ping 05:09
05:27 fbrito left, fbrito joined
dalek tracwiki: v31 | cotto++ | CottoTasklist 05:39
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/CottoTa...ction=diff
plobsing ping rfw 06:22
rfw pong
what's up?
plobsing I've debugged your ycombinator. 06:23
rfw ah
what was wrong with it?
it runs fine javascript though ._.
plobsing it is a problem with winxed lexicals. you can work around by having the variable closed over as outer coming from a local variable (as opposed to an argument)
rfw ah 06:24
plobsing the problem is that the 2 closed-over variables in the combinator (outer and func) get aliased to the same lexical.
rfw wasn't aware of that
plobsing not your fault.
rfw still a bug in winxed though :)
fbrito I have interest in www.google-melange.com/gci/task/sho...9123759504 but I still think it is overrated. I think 2 points are a lot when all you have to do is change 2 or 3 lines on a wiki page. 06:25
are you guys allowed to edit this? 06:26
cotto I can if melange isn't broken. 06:30
a successful sign-in results in me not being signed in
perhaps it has something to do with the url change 06:31
fbrito which URL are you trying? google-melange.com or the one with appspot?
there seems to be socghop.appspot.com/ and www.google-melange.com/
and they don't share the same session 06:32
rfw (and they both suck as much as each other)
cotto appspot seems to work
fbrito rfw: ahahhaah! I totally agree with you 06:33
cotto google-melange doesn't
fbrito rfw: on the first days the list all tasks page was REALLY slow
rfw fbrito: i was there as soon as it started
fbrito rfw: and even now we have some silly bugs like tasks with 0 points :o 06:34
rfw i got a crapload of 500 errors
fbrito: i also hate the fact they used jquery ui everywhere 06:35
i wanted properly paginating pages ._.
not some javascript mess
cotto I like jquery, but only if it's used properly.
rfw yeah
fbrito why? did you want to write a crawling bot? :P
rfw you don't use jquery for the whole goddamn interface
fbrito: no, because it takes a few minutes to load all the tasks
davidfetter .o(pquery) 06:36
rfw fbrito: also the backend is json data anyway
cotto but I can complain with one hand and read cool research papers with the other and see which goes to sleep having no regrets about how it spent its day
fbrito rfw: yes, true. like when you open "list all tasks" and filter by "parrot", you still have to wait some seconds while it loads everything 06:37
rfw fbrito: it's sorta "oh look there's some parrot tasks WHY IS IT FILLING UP WITH OTHER TASKS"
fbrito ahhaha! it is even worse in the rank page
"yes... i am the 2nd! HEY, WAIT!" 06:38
rfw lolol
i wonder if poor artem shmelev on 0 points at the bottom is going to get a t-shirt
fbrito and than you can see that it is loaded in alphabetical order
then* 06:39
like you. your name starts with T, so it always loaded after mine
rfw :p
fbrito rfw: I sent an email to gci-discuss list and they said that 0 points task was a bug :P 06:40
rfw does he even get 1 point
lol
fbrito poor guy :D
rfw Under no circumstances shall the submission of an Entry into the Contest, the awarding of a prize, or anything in these Official Rules be construed as an offer or contract of employment with either Google or any participating Open Source Organization. 06:41
aw :(
dukeleto rfw: don't read too much into that ;) 06:42
cotto: pong, but distracted
cotto dukeleto, ooc how much time do you spend looking for people building Parrot on unusual platforms and how often do you try to recruit them? 06:43
fbrito rfw: have you seen those numbers? pastie.org/1340596 they are from yesterday 06:44
cotto rfw, we'll hire you for an annual salary of twice what dukeleto makes.
aloha, 2*0
rfw ahaha i was just going to ask if dukeleto even made a salary :p
fbrito: hoping i can still stay in the top 10 06:45
trip to mountain view == awesome
fbrito it would be nice if they had offered a scholarship on a american university
cotto (for his Parrot work. I'm sure his dayjob pays nicely.)
fbrito MIT costs like 55k/year
rfw yeah
hm there's another brazilian in here
rfw pokes Kovensky 06:46
fbrito really?
rfw yah
Kovensky is
i don't remember where he's from though
fbrito his name sounds like russian, ahhaa
sorear most US unis have radically different rates for locals (same state or in some cases city) and non-locals
cotto Oh noes. You're taking over!
rfw sorear: aren't californian unis free for californians
i guess the poor californians get the hell taxed out of them :p 06:47
fbrito I am going to write a test to go to a uni here in my city on monday :o
sorear rfw: they were for my parents' generation :( 06:48
rfw sorear: dang :(
fbrito cotto: were you able to edit that wiki task? 06:49
rfw: have you ever been to USA?
rfw fbrito: my university entrance restuls arrive on 23rd of january ._.
andn o
no*
fbrito me neither. do you know if we will be able to choose the ticket dates? 06:50
06:50 stilgar joined
rfw i'd rather not think of that yet 06:50
we have to win first, you know
cotto fbrito, which task?
rfw fbrito: still got quite a few weeks to go :( 06:51
NotFound plobsing: ping
fbrito this task: www.google-melange.com/gci/task/sho...9123759504 I heard another student saying that parrot tasks were too overrated, and I agree in some cases. in that task we only have to edit 3 or 4 lines in the wiki page. I think it should be an "easy" (1 point) task 06:52
plobsing NotFound: pong
fbrito rfw: yes, you are right
NotFound plobsing: what's the problem you've found?
stilgar cotto: i try to recruit anyone who seems interested in parrot, regardless of their platform
plobsing closure-within-closure can cause name conflicts in lexical name selection 06:53
and it wasn't me, it was rfw++ and his y-combinator
stilgar is dukeleto's phone
NotFound Ah, yes, I've seen the issue now. 06:54
rfw: good work
rfw \\o/
thanks
cotto fbrito, update 06:55
d
fbrito rfw: may I ask what 'rfw' means?
NotFound plobsing: you're right, the problem is the simplistic scheme used to assign internal names to arguments.
rfw fbrito: abbreviation of my full nickname which is rather silly
fbrito I don't know why but I always type rwf and then I have to fix it :( 06:57
rfw r<tab>?
sorear opbots trust rfw
slavorgn Ok
slavorg Ok
NotFound rfw++ whitheknight++ plobsing++
sorear whitheknight-- whiteknight++
stilgar cotto: why do you ask?
rfw \\o/ 06:58
thanks
cotto stilgar, there's a ticket for porting to more platforms that strikes me as unnecessary
fbrito do you guys know what gives great 1 point tasks? translating wikipedia project page to other languages!
I've seen quite a lot of projects doing that 06:59
rfw fbrito: www.google-melange.com/gci/student_...daniel93_1 FILLING GODDAMN WIKI INFOBOXES
fbrito AHAHHAHAHAHA, I KNOW!
but have you tried to fill them? 07:00
I tried for like 30 minutes and then I gave up
rfw no
i've kept away from 1 point tasks for now
NotFound rfw: you asked how to cast to int in winxed? Use the cast psuedo-function: i = int (whatever);
rfw NotFound: ah 07:01
thanks
fbrito (rfw: I feel that we are flooding the channel with off topic matters :P)
rfw fbrito: yeah i do that everywhere i go
NotFound I should add that to the quick documentation section on the home page.
rfw offtopic discussion follows me like the plague 07:02
fbrito do you guys know who could provide me editing bits to the wiki?
stilgar cotto: which platforms? 07:05
cotto stilgar, the ticket doesn't specify. That's part of why I don't like it.
tt 609 07:06
stilgar fbrito: cotto should be able to give you an edit bit
cotto stilgar, nope
NotFound If someone wants to make me happy, pick the task about chunked encoding. I know it doesn't looks so cool as the Y-combinators and the like, but will be highly useful.
fbrito the task that I had most fun doing was writing unit tests to nummatrix2d on PLA. it was the hole day googling for LaPlace, Sarrus and so on :P 07:10
I mean examples, not unit tests
so, should I wait until tomorrow to ask who can give me permission to edit wiki pages? 07:15
stilgar fbrito: i am going to make some challenging tasks with you in mind :)
fbrito and when I find it too hard I will pass it to rfw :D hahaha 07:16
rfw: how are you going with your screencast? 07:17
Ok, I am going to bed. Please, if someone find who has the permission to give editing bit on wiki pages, tell him that I need it to a GCI task. My account on Trac is "fbrito" :) 07:23
cotto fbrito, did you respond to your welcome email? 07:27
fbrito respond? 07:29
dukeleto fbrito: stupid wiki
fbrito: i will try to give you a bit
fbrito: we had to do that because our wiki kept getting spammed
fbrito cotto: I think so, because to create tickets we have to verify the email, and I have already created a ticket 07:30
cotto I'm not seeing a response to a test account I just set up, but our trac site might not send out email instantly
dukeleto fbrito: have you ever used PostgreSQL ?
cotto sleeps 07:31
fbrito dukeleto: I have used MySQL and SQLite on "production", but never PostgreSQL
but I have some basic knowledge of databases (queries, joins, relationship...) 07:32
dukeleto fbrito: you should have a wiki edit bit now
fbrito: well then. I am going to make a PL/Parrot task for you. pl.parrot.org . And a good one ...
fbrito :o 07:34
seems interesting
NotFound If you are looking for ideas for new tasks: add support for winxed to PL/Parrot 07:35
fbrito I should be already on bed by this time (04:40am :D). Good "night" guys! I am going to finish the wiki task right after I wake up. 07:40
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dukeleto NotFound: that could be interesting, and is nontrivial, to say the least :) 07:57
NotFound dukeleto: some are seying that the tasks are too easy, they aren't? So let's add a few challenging ones. 08:10
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dukeleto NotFound: That will motivate me to make some very challenging tasks. But now I sleep. 08:22
NotFound: PL/Winxed might make a nice task...
NotFound: if you can give me PBC of Winxed, it could work
NotFound: but i must sleep. Think of some hard tasks and we will talk tomorrow 08:23
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kid51 aloha is present but continues to be unresponsive 11:55
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whiteknight good morning, #parrot 13:44
13:53 Psyche^ joined, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner 14:21 smash joined
smash hello everyone 14:21
whiteknight good morning smash
atrodo good morning 14:35
whiteknight good morning atrodo 14:38
whiteknight wonders if we could move plumage from gitorious to the parrot org on github 14:44
or, at least fork it there
atrodo i'd imagine it'd be pretty easy 14:48
whiteknight seen japhb
aloha help
aloha whiteknight: Ask me for help about: msg, convert, status, vars, karma, auth, seen, maths, translate, infobot, clock, loader (say 'help <modulename>').
whiteknight aloha seen japhb 14:49
14:49 fbrito joined 14:53 contingencyplan joined
whiteknight stupid bot 14:56
moritz seen japhb 14:57
NotFound whiteknight: the Y-combinator task has been a great idea. 15:02
dalek tracwiki: v19 | fbrito++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide 15:08
tracwiki: Updating from SVN to Git
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
tracwiki: v20 | fbrito++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide
tracwiki: Link to git_workflow.pod
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
15:20 fbrito left 15:21 fbrito joined
dalek tracwiki: v21 | fbrito++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide 15:24
tracwiki: Link .pod files to GitHub source
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
tracwiki: v22 | fbrito++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide
tracwiki: Link to tests.pod
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
tracwiki: v23 | fbrito++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide
tracwiki: There is already a sentence starting with "once again" later
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
fbrito Is anyone here actually using "diffstat" or can I remove it from the wiki? 15:38
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whiteknight what is diffstat? 15:50
Coke it's nice to have, but not a requirement for new developers. 15:51
kill it.
whiteknight: tool to show you how many lines changed in a given diff.
sample: freshmeat.net/screenshots/c3/ef/c3e...1240088976 15:52
whiteknight Coke++
15:54 dip joined
lucian allison: ping 15:56
dalek tracwiki: v24 | fbrito++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide 15:59
tracwiki: Remove diffstat and old ticket system
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
tracwiki: v25 | fbrito++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide
tracwiki: Fix header level
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
fbrito and can anyone open those linked files on the wiki? (names.t, patch example, etc) 16:01
documentations on docs/ are so great that I think sooner or latter this wiki page will be just links pointing to them :P
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allison lucian: pong 16:07
lucian allison: i've sort of disappeared from pynie development lately :) 16:08
I've been looking at it lately
i'm wondering if using codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/parser.html might be a better approach
allison so have I :) 16:09
well, actually going even further
and just making parrot a backend for pypy
lucian yeah, it's bitrotten so far it didn't even build. i fixed that, but it still doesn't eval
allison: ah, but that would generate a python interpreter 16:10
with a PASM jit, or something like that
i think that's suboptimal, at best
allison that depends
right now, our compiler tools infrastructure is way too heavyweight 16:11
lucian allison: and weird. very, very weird
allison so we're not losing too much by switching to a different heavyweight one
and, we gain the advantage of an array of work by people other than Parrot contributors
lucian allison: i don't think the problem with PyPy is size, but redundancy
allison parrot is heading toward being much smaller 16:12
lucian PyPy deals with a lot of issues that don't exist in parrot, even a smaller one
allison and, it should be possible to trim away most of the fat, so parrot is much leaner and lighter than CPython as a backend
lucian you can't reasonably compile the full python language to x86 or jvm bytecode
but the full python language could be compiled to some parrot bytecode 16:13
so there isn't really a need for an interpreter running on top of parrot
it'd just be wasteful
allison: but i do agree pynie should be written in python entirely
allison those would be my two best options
either strip pynie down so it's just the tiniest possible translator to Parrot bytecode 16:14
lucian or get a full interpreter running
allison or throw it away and make it a backend for pypy
yup
what we have right now is really a waste
lucian a pypy backend isn't hard conceptually, just time-consuming
and it'd probably be slow and without a chance of interop with other languages on parrot 16:15
allison in some ways, a pypy backend is just a special case of the first idea
afaict, the first step would be implementing an RPython translator to Parrot bytecode
lucian allison: so a PyPy backend would mean two major things:1
1) RPython on parrot
and 2) parrot object space
yeah
allison both of which could be a good first step to a more extensive python implementation 16:16
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allison so, the two possibilities aren't necessarily mutually exclusive 16:16
whiteknight fbrito: try to open those files again
lucian allison: yeah. RPython on parrot could at the very least bootstrap pynie 16:17
allison: but if you compare CPython bytecode and parrot bytecode, there's not much difference
allison lucian: btw, if we start over, we should scrap the current code, and contribute the new code to the PSF from the start 16:18
lucian looking at PyPy's parser, it should be easier to replace the compiler bit and instead transform the AST to PAST or something
16:18 davidfetter left
fbrito whiteknight: still can't open them 16:18
lucian allison: would they be interested?
allison lucian: they were already interested 16:19
lucian then what's missing is the pynie object space
allison: i see
allison lucian: but there was a bit of complexity in the earlier ownership
whiteknight fbrito: try it again (there are a lot of permissions here, I don't know which you need to view that file)
allison lucian: scrapping and starting over gets rid of all that
lucian allison: i see 16:20
fbrito whiteknight: nothing
whiteknight fbrito: ah, I just tried myself. Those files may have been deleted 16:21
delete the links
(oh, and you have WIKI_ADMIN privileges now, so don't break nothing)
lucian allison: so writing a PyPy backend will certainly get an almost entirely compatible interpreter 16:22
whiteknight allison, lucian: We've been talking about a very similar approach to a new JavaScript interpreter. Don't use NQP/PCT, write the compiler directly in JavaScript and bootstrap
lucian whiteknight: yes, we have :)
fbrito whiteknight: ok, I will try to update the links. thank you :)
whiteknight In fact, there are some JavaScript parsers written in JavaScript we've been looking at that we might just make codebackends for
for languages sufficiently capable, this really starts to become a more attractive option 16:23
lucian allison: but a PyPy backend would be doubly interpreted, once parrot interpreter bytecode and twice pypy interpreting python
s/parrot interpreter/parrot interpreting/
whiteknight I've heard several complaints from Pythonish people who don't want to write a Python interpreter in Perl6
lucian: must PyPy generate an interpreter too? Can't it just parse and generate an AST? 16:24
lucian whiteknight: there is a bytecode compiler in PyPy, we could write a new code generator for that
but i'm not sure that could cover all corner cases 16:25
we might never get more than a language very similar to python
whiteknight: codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/parser.html
whiteknight lucian: once you bootstrap the first time, you can use your own compiler to write successively-better parsers 16:26
lucian whiteknight: btw, pypy is mainly two things: 1) a framework for writing generating VMs with JIT and GC from interpreters written in RPython and 2) a python interpreter written in RPython
whiteknight so PyPy might not give a complete Python, but then you use that subset to bootstrap a proper Python
lucian whiteknight: that's not the issue. i'm not certain parrot bytecode can express the whole of python 16:27
whiteknight lucian: whatever you have a problem with can be added
lucian whiteknight: right, that sounds good
i guess i'm used to thinking about VMs as static targets
whiteknight lucian: Parrot? static? Give me a few minutes so I can laugh until I start crying
lucian whiteknight: yes, yes i know 16:28
half of it seems to get deprecated every release :)
whiteknight only the bad half
Oh, I wish we could rip out half of Parrot 16:29
but I think Coke would go Super-Saiyan and murder us all
lucian allison: whiteknight: anyway, a first implementation might be PyPy's parser + generating PAST/PIR/PBC
PerlJam whiteknight: you can rip out as much as you want ... you just have to fork and change the name :-)
allison whiteknight: there's always the "do-over" option 16:30
whiteknight allison: no, I'm mostly kidding. i don't think half of it needs to go
allison whiteknight: indeed 16:31
whiteknight once we finally rip IMCC out, I think we'll be a MUCH better product
allison whiteknight: that will certainly help 16:32
whiteknight I don't know how much of the codebase is IMCC. It might be 50%
allison: I've actually been wanting to pick your brain about that "concurrency-friendly CPS" ticket you opened a while back. Do you have any more ideas about that? 16:33
smash whiteknight: poor IMCC :)
whiteknight (I was about to say something about ripping out threads too, and segued) 16:34
lucian whiteknight: is there a consensus on what sort of concurrency parrot should have?
whiteknight lucian: no, which is why I would like to explore this idea allison had 16:35
We have an implementation of green threads in a branch that we could probably get pulled into trunk if that's what everybody wanted
lucian whiteknight: if you want to support all languages, you'll need an implementation of pthreads
whiteknight I suspect we will want to go a different way, but the option is open
lucian as evil as pthreads is
whiteknight lucian: at least, something that looks like pthreads 16:36
lucian whiteknight: i'm not sure that's even possible
whiteknight: are you thinking green threads + non-blocking io to similate pthreads + blocking io?
s/similate/simulate/ 16:37
whiteknight lucian: I'm thinking Greenthreads as a stop-gap measure to simulate concurrency until we come up with something better
We are going to want a system where we can have multple Parrot interpreters, each running on a separate OS thread, and being able to communicate with each other 16:38
that approach becomes a heavy-weight pthread-like situation, but we are also going to want things that are much lighter
greenthreads do seem to be that "lighter" alternative, especially if we get non-blocking IO working with them
lucian whiteknight: i don't know if you've seen eventlet wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Eventlet 16:39
whiteknight: and green threads are in fact much ligher on the OS's scheduler
whiteknight: erlang processes and stackless threads can run in the millions, while pthreads kill the machine in the (very) low thousands 16:40
python stackless that is
whiteknight: there's also the other, slighty more low level approach, STM
clojure has an awesome concurrency story 16:41
but it makes some tradeoffs that I don't think are possible for parrot
PerlJam would that parrot could gain an awesome story too
lucian so an STM is nice to have, but without efficient immutable data structures, it's much less useful 16:42
whiteknight lucian: I've seen eventlets in the past, yes. I should probably re-read them
and STM isn't really a concurrency solution, just a memory sharing solution
allison whiteknight: what would you like to know? 16:43
lucian whiteknight: it solves contention without locks
whiteknight I think that erlang processes and stackless threads could be simulated pretty easily with greenthreads multiplexed onto a small number of OS threads
allison whiteknight: it was the topic of my PhD thesis, but I had to set that aside for a while
lucian whiteknight: that's exactly what erlang does, in fact
whiteknight allison: anything! The ticket was extremely vague. I'm just wondering if you have any specific details that I could latch onto 16:44
allison I'll send you the thesis proposal as the start
whiteknight allison: you have a draft I could borrot? I'm an extremely good proof-reader :)
nice! allison++
allison whiteknight: I never extended it into a more complete paper, but I could (probably should) 16:45
lucian that reminds me, I have a dissertation project proposal to write for next week ...
lucian wishes he would find less things interesting 16:46
whiteknight lucian: what kind of dissertation are you proposing?
lucian whiteknight: mobile application SDK+IDE that is itself a mobile application
basically developing mobile applications directly from your mobile device, without a PC 16:47
allison whiteknight: email sent 16:48
lucian whiteknight: and it involves generating JavaScript from something like education.mit.edu/drupal/openblocks
dalek tracwiki: v26 | fbrito++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide 16:49
tracwiki: Remove old (probably deleted) attachments
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
Coke whiteknight: why would I be upset that you ripped out half of parrot?
allison Coke: I suspect he meant from a code instability perspective 16:50
Coke ... you can't break partcl any more than it's been broken, unless you try REALLY hard. (having rakudo as a bulwark in front of partcl helps. ;) 16:51
whiteknight allison++ # Thanks! Reading intently 16:53
allison steps away for a few minutes, brb 16:54
Coke reads lwn.net/SubscriberLink/417952/bf6a55b67170ff0e/ and hopes that that sort of thing isn't happening in the perl community. *sigh* 16:55
whiteknight Coke: That is extremely upsetting 17:00
moritz Coke: I've asked some women who attend Perl conferences, and they've told me that the Perl community is one of the friendliest towards women
and I haven't heard anything like that from a YAPC 17:01
(which might be connected to Larry brining his family, and others too)
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dalek tracwiki: v27 | fbrito++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide 17:05
tracwiki: Add "feedback" section
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
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whiteknight Parrot doesn't really have a community code of conduct like they mention here 17:07
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allison Coke: I've attended hundreds of conferences and never been treated with anything less than total respect 17:19
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allison moritz: Larry setting an example for the whole Perl community does help 17:21
whiteknight: a code of conduct isn't a bad idea for every project, even Parrot (where we pretty much have an implicit code of conduct anyway) 17:24
whiteknight allison: right. I would hate to be caught in a position where we were having problems and didn't have a code written up already. But then again, the situation is such that we haven't felt like it's a priority yet 17:25
cotto_work ~~
whiteknight which is good and bad. Obviously we have a great community, but we don't want to be oblivious to things
cotto_work prepares for epic backscolling
TimToady some of our code of conduct is written into the very first paragraph of perl6.org 17:26
PerlJam spokesbug ... spunky ... world-famous ... dedicated ... ah, there it is: be nice :-) 17:27
TimToady actually "know how to be nice"--you don't always have to be nice :) 17:28
Coke reads the ubuntu code of conduct. that looks nice. 17:30
TimToady we are not nice to people who don't know how to be nice :)
Coke TimToady++
TimToady: Thanks for not being a jerk!
allison Coke: yes, I've always been a big fan of Ubuntu's
dukeleto 'ello 17:32
fbrito: looks like you are really improving our NewParrotDeveloperGuide, awesome!
PerlJam William Ury has some good ideas too: www.ted.com/talks/william_ury.html
:)
I particularly like his opening story in that talk 17:33
allison Coke: did the article mention openrespect.org/?
dukeleto Is anyone planning on going to PyCon in Atlanta? There is a Virtual Machine Summit this year.
actually, it is next year, but you know what I mean
us.pycon.org/2011/
fbrito dukeleto: yes, but there are so much covered in docs/ that I don't know what else could I write there 17:34
dukeleto "This is a networking and discussion group for those involved in the implementation of Virtual Machines for dynamic languages, and is not Python specific. Invitees include developers from the CPython, JRuby, IronRuby, IronPython, PyPy, Jython, Parrot, LLVM, Lua, Smalltalk and JavaScript VM projects."
fbrito: it just needs to be a good intro that points people in the right directions
allison dukeleto: I am, thought I didn't submit a talk
dukeleto: I've been to the VM summit every year since it started and found it valuable 17:35
dukeleto allison: I am playing with the idea of going, but figuring out logistics. If you find it valuable every year, that says a lot.
allison dukeleto: it partly depends on your interest in Python 17:36
while they say it's not Python specific... it actually is
so if you go, be prepared to listen and learn about a new way of doing things 17:37
and for the fact that no one there will be interested in Perl 6 at all (and will probably make jokes about it) 17:38
don't be defensive, be open
it's a great cross-cultural experience 17:39
dukeleto allison: that is actually the kind of environment I want to be in. I want to learn about what other VM's are doing, specifically PyPy
allison: i think we have a lot to learn from Rubinius and PyPy
allison dukeleto: definitely
17:40 preflex left
TimToady some of which will be carping that their languages don't give them enough type annotations to optimize well :) 17:40
dukeleto allison: I am not sure if I would go just for the summit or PyCon as well.
TimToady: what are you focusing on with respect to Perl 6 these days? 17:42
TimToady: anything in particular ? Or just making sure the washing machine doesn't stop?
17:43 dip left
dukeleto hmmm. PyCon costs $300 (early bird) and $350 for the normal rate. 17:45
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TimToady mostly just making sure people don't block on lack of understanding 17:45
and a lot of actually playing with Perl 6 to see how it feels 17:46
dukeleto TimToady: I am very interested in working with other parrot hackers to port some of jnthn's 6model stuff to Parrot. Parrot's current meta object model is blocking the implementation of Ruby on Parrot and other HLL's
TimToady indeed, that feels quite convergent to me
dukeleto TimToady: I think it is awesome that Parrot can learn from Perl 6 as well as the other way around
TimToady: convergence is happening, and that means stuff is getting righter 17:47
TimToady is getting migraine auras that make it difficult to read anything; better wander off for now... 17:51
dukeleto TimToady: feel better! Take a walk and sniff some fresh air. 17:53
So our GCI students have been complaining that our tasks are too easy. Time to take out the big guns. 17:54
whiteknight: ping 17:57
whiteknight dukeleto: pong 17:58
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jnthn dukeleto: I already started that port. It's in the nom branch of nqp-rx :) 17:59
dukeleto: Contributions *very* welcome. :)
dukeleto whiteknight: very nice write-up on the embed_api2 branch
jnthn: can you tell me a bit more about the nom branch? 18:00
lucian sorry, catching up to the backlog
dukeleto whiteknight: question: Can we get rid of the nonesense where creating a parrot interp requires passing in any previously created interps?
lucian rubinius and pypy are actually nothing alike
dukeleto whiteknight: that gives me the heeby-jeebies WRT security
lucian: that doesn't mean we don't have a lot to learn from them 18:01
lucian has been reading a lot, perhaps at the expense of his uni
jnthn dukeleto: At the moment it contains a port of knowhow (pure prototype) and a class implementation (NQPClassHOW) written in NQP. Current state is trying to transition NQP to use that NQPClassHOW implementation. It also has a port of some of the reprs.
dukeleto lucian: Rubinius is effectively using LLVM right now. We aren't. PyPy has a very finely-tuned GC (their 5th). Ours still has some pointy edges.
lucian dukeleto: of course. but there's the general opinion that they're very similar, but for different languages
jnthn dukeleto: Note how I'm writing NQP's object model in...NQP. :)
lucian dukeleto: well, rubinius is a ruby VM written in C++ with llvm for jit 18:02
dukeleto lucian: i don't have that opinion. I just know I want parrot to learn a lot from both of them.
lucian: yes, i know :)
jnthn dukeleto: So the core really does not offer much at all.
lucian dukeleto: good :) i probably read too many confused blog posts
whiteknight dukeleto: as I understand, you can create multiple interpreters without them needing to reference each other
jnthn Other than a little case to build everything on.
dukeleto lucian: the core Rubinius guys live in Portland, and I went to talk about it a few days ago.
jnthn s/case/base/
dukeleto lucian: they hang out in #rubinius on freenode, and are very friendly 18:03
whiteknight: that is wrong
lucian dukeleto: yep, and they do great work
dukeleto whiteknight: i.e. untrue
whiteknight dukeleto: Okay, we can address that, though probably not in this branch
dukeleto: create a ticket and assign it to me?
Coke allison: I didn't see that link, but might have.
lucian dukeleto: i like how they work around llvm's bad performance as an actual vm
dukeleto whiteknight: Parrot_new requires being passed in the 1st interp every created, or HORRIBLE THINGS WILL HAPPEN
lucian i'm much more familiar with PyPy, though 18:04
dukeleto s/every/ever/
whiteknight: perhaps your branch isn't the correct place to fix it
whiteknight: i think it is just sharing constants across interps, but still, from a security viewpoint, it is dicey.
whiteknight: in PL/Parrot i have to create trusted and untrusted interps, but i have to tell each about the other, and I don't like that. 18:05
whiteknight dukeleto: yes, that is bad. We will fix that eventually
first step is to come up with a failing test/example, and then research why it fails 18:06
dukeleto whiteknight: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1880 18:08
cotto_work allison: can you put the paper on the wiki? 18:09
dukeleto whiteknight: the documentation says that horrible, horrible things will happen, and i remember seeing something bad, but can't remember what it was
dalek TT #1880 created by dukeleto++: Parrot_new should not need to be passed previously-created interps
TT #1880: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1880
cotto_work or whiteknight if allison has taken off 18:11
allison cotto_work: which paper? my PhD thesis proposal?
cotto_work yes 18:12
That was what I pinged you about yesterday evening.
Coke re #1880 - it really requires the first interpreter and not just any ole interpreter? 18:13
lucian dukeleto: speaking of GC/JIT in parrot, the PyPy folks are more productive because they write RPython and not C
allison cotto_work: will skim through it quickly, but should be fine
Coke (I could see requiring "a".)
lucian dukeleto: i've been thinking whether anything similar would be possible for parrot
cotto_work allison: thanks!
18:14 fbrito left
whiteknight lucian: yes, being able to write something better than C has it's advantages 18:17
lucian whiteknight: even simple things, like not caring about memory when implementing parrot (except when implementing the GC of course)
whiteknight if our post-Lorito JIT brings with it an AOT compiler, it becomes very possible to do things like that ourselves 18:18
we write Parrot in a high-level language, compile to PBC, optimize, compile to machinecode, and we have our binary 18:19
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cotto_work dukeleto: it looks like PyCon will be a good place to steal some ideas and hang out with some different kinds of hackers. I'll have to see if I can avoid not going. 18:20
lucian whiteknight: i was thinking more of something like Vala 18:25
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dukeleto Coke: i am not sure if it is only the 1st, or any 18:29
lucian: i looked into Vala. It looks cool, but i heard debugging errors in it is a pain, since you are then debugging errors in generated C 18:30
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lucian dukeleto: sort of, yeah 18:39
dukeleto: i was thinking of something more system-like 18:40
even D would fit the bill
but D brings a lot of un-parrot things with it
something like SafeC + a few extra features would probably be enough 18:41
fbrito GCI mentors: I think I have finished my task. Please take a look when you have some time: www.google-melange.com/gci/task/sho...9123759504 18:47
rfw fbrito: just woke up and you've already finished something :o 18:48
18:50 nwellnhof joined 18:51 smash left 18:54 lucian_ joined 18:56 lucian left
dalek tracwiki: v28 | cotto++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide 18:57
tracwiki: specify minimum perl version
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
fbrito rfw: it is still my wiki task from yesterday :P 19:00
lucian_ whiteknight: and I just realised that the lorito interpreter could be written in RPython and get a free JIT from PyPy 19:01
rfw fbrito: trying to do my screencast task :(
it doesn't help that i keep going "the installer here lets you blehgabldgdahhfds"
cotto_work lucian_: the Lorito interp can be written in all kinds of things 19:02
that's part of its charm
doing it in RPython and getting a free JIT sounds cool. That might even be a good place to do the initial filling out of the spec once the spec is ready. 19:03
whiteknight dukeleto: ping 19:06
lucian_ cotto_work: yeah, i assumed that as well 19:09
cotto_work I hope that no implementation will have a monopoly on Lorito interpreters. 19:10
19:10 Kristaba joined
fbrito (great. now I have to wash my mom's car and do grocery shopping. see you guys later) 19:11
Coke wow, usually we have to go pick up the kids from school or something. 19:12
atrodo cotto_work> That would make it nice. That way parrot becomes a specification and not a program 19:23
cotto_work atrodo: yes 19:28
atrodo: did you see that I'm meeting with allison and chromatic to get a brain dump on Lorito? Now's the time to add questions to the wiki page.
atrodo cotto_work> I heard that, and I'm still trying to think of questions to little success 19:29
whiteknight cotto_work: I just assigned TT #61 to you after adding in info from the GCI student. I don't think it's a rush issue.
cotto_work whiteknight: good idea 19:30
I was going to make gci tasks out of the tickets last night but ran out of steam before I finished looking through the ticket queue.
It's mentally draining. 19:31
whiteknight yes it is 19:32
I created a report on Trac to list just the open RFCs and I was trying to weed out those
Coke any kind of queue management is, yah. My condoloence.s
whiteknight breaking up into small lists is the only way to deal with it 19:33
cotto_work There's a handful that are tagged gci though. When I have the tuits I (or someone) can make them into proper tasks.
whiteknight okay
cotto_work I can see much more clearly the value of having a small ticket queue now. 19:34
whiteknight MUCH more clearly 19:35
fbrito (oh, tomorrow is opendataday! www.opendataday.org/) 19:38
dukeleto whiteknight: pong 19:46
whiteknight dukeleto: the links on the /foundation page on parrot.org are broken now after the upgrade 19:54
er, /foundation/legal 19:55
dukeleto whiteknight: bugger 19:57
whiteknight :)
dukeleto whiteknight: parrot.org/foundation/legal works for me
whiteknight: what do you see?
whiteknight click one of the link 20:00
I get "www.parrot.org/sites/www.parrot.org...eting.pdf"
Coke often things change for logged in/not users. 20:02
(which in turn is usually a server side cache issue)
dukeleto whiteknight: i see now 20:03
dukeleto just sent a support ticket to OSUOSL 20:04
whiteknight oh, that's not something we can fix? 20:05
is that page editable?
dukeleto i have no clue. But the upgrade broke it, so i emailed them.
dukeleto has never fiddled with parrot.org content 20:06
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allison dukeleto: OSUOSL doesn't work on our Drupal site at all, we do that 20:16
dukeleto allison: sure. But something broke when they upgraded our site 20:17
allison: so i am asking them for help. They are free to say "we don't care", but they are usually pretty helpful
allison dukeleto: they are very helpful
dukeleto allison: we had an old version of drupal that had various security issues, so they did an upgrade
allison: yep, those OSUOSL peeps are awesome. 20:18
20:18 perlite left, perlite_ is now known as perlite
dukeleto I've never edited parrot.org in any way, so i don't know where the line between OSUOSL and us is, exactly. 20:18
sorear whiteknight++ whiteknight++ whiteknight++ whiteknight++ whiteknight++
Coke if you can do it through the web gui, it's us.\\
sorear # embed_api2 report is puire awesome 20:19
Coke we have command line access so we can probably do anything, but I find it easier to ask them for help beyond that point.
dukeleto i just heard back from OSUOSL and they say the problem is on their end. They are looking into it. 20:20
Those guys rock. They replied 14 minutes after I sent them an email.
allison dukeleto: basically, they do the os-level admin (the command-line stuff) and we do everything else 20:22
dukeleto allison: see above :)
allison dukeleto: if you don't have full admin permissions on parrot.org yet, let us know
dukeleto: (yup, saw above, and figured clarification was good for-the-record)
dukeleto allison: yes, i appreciate that.
allison: I am concerned that some of our docs are not linked to from our site. 20:23
allison: such as docs/embed.pod and many others
how does docs.parrot.org/parrot/latest/html/ get updated ?
allison dukeleto: that's the whole purpose of docs.parrot.org 20:24
dukeleto: it's part of the release process
Kristaba Hi everyone 20:26
dukeleto Kristaba: howdy!
allison: is the file at docs.parrot.org/parrot/latest/html/ actually under version control ? Is it generated from "make html" or something? 20:27
allison: it is not clear from our release docs
allison dukeleto: generated by "make html"
dukeleto: item 10.f. in the release document 20:29
dukeleto allison: which file is index.html generated from? I still can't seem to find that 20:30
whiteknight sorear: thanks! But I didn't think it was worth all that karma!
allison dukeleto: it's not generated from a file, it's generated by the modules
dukeleto allison: please explain what you mean "generated by the modules" ? 20:31
allison: all i want to do is add a few links to index.html . How do I do that? It is definitely not obvious.
Kristaba: how is GCI treating you? 20:32
allison dukeleto: see lib/Parrot/Docs/Section/Parrot.pm 20:33
dukeleto allison: thanks. I've never looked at those modules.
fbrito can anyone please take a look on my GCI wiki task? (www.google-melange.com/gci/task/sho...23759504). I would like to claim another Parrot task but this one is blocking me :) 20:34
allison dukeleto: it's a simple declarative structure, add an item with a title and file path to a given group, and it'll do everything else for you (convert the pod to html, set up the site links, etc)
dukeleto allison: sweet! 20:35
fbrito: on it
fbrito: approved. 20:36
fbrito: what are you working on next? I still need to make some challenging tasks for you. 20:37
fbrito www.google-melange.com/gci/task/sho...9130043418
whiteknight yes, we need more challenging tasks
I will try to make some more tonight, but I am at work late today
dukeleto fbrito: that looks really fun!
whiteknight: you have been kicking my ass in the task-making department. I need to catch up. 20:38
fbrito :D
whiteknight dukeleto: You said you would manage the event if other people picked up the slack and didn't leave you with all the work
fbrito allison: look! it looks that now you have a portuguese wikipedia article on your name: pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Randal
whiteknight this is just part of the deal
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dukeleto whiteknight: sounds good to me :) You are doing a great job mentoring. I have lots of task ideas, but life has been getting in the way. 20:39
whiteknight dukeleto: if you send me a list of task-idea oneliners I will put them in as tasks
I'm actually slowly draining out my pool of ideas, so I need fresh blood
and BRAINS 20:40
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dukeleto MMMMMMMM, BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINNNNSSS 20:40
has anybody implemented LOLZOMBIE yet? 20:41
whiteknight LOLZOMBIE? 20:43
allison fbrito: cool! :) 20:44
fbrito: I like the sound of "Arquiteta Chefe do Ubuntu" 20:45
fbrito yes. and it sounds really important :P 20:46
(wow. portuguese wikipedia has no article to Perl6 and doesn't even mention it on Perl page) 20:47
whiteknight fbrito: You need to be our Arquiteta Chefe do Perl6 article
allison fbrito: or really flamboyant :)
fbrito whiteknight: ahahhaha, NICE! oh, wait a second... Arquiteta is for girls :( 20:48
allison fbrito: like I need a big red dress and 6" heels
allison gets ideas for next halloween... 20:49
Kristaba dukeleto: (sorry for the delay) No problem, my task is about the PLA, so I ask help to whiteknight for now :) 20:52
whiteknight fbrito: sorry, I don't know portugese 20:55
fbrito whiteknight: no problem :P 20:56
dukeleto Sample LOLZOMBIE program: IF (I CAN HAZ BRAINS) FEAST() ELSE WANDER() 21:01
whiteknight dukeleto: nice syntax. What does it do? 21:02
Coke dukeleto: see also the branch for making it easier to change the html docs.
(which I never quite made to a state that made it pushable to master.)
lucian_ dukeleto: halloween DSL for lolcode?
21:02 fbrito left 21:03 fbrito joined
allison fbrito: hmm... spanish does gender agreement jefe/jefa too 21:03
lucian_ allison: i'm pretty sure all latin languages do (i'm romanian)
21:04 lucian_ is now known as lucian
allison fbrito: portuguese doesn't do chefe/chefa? 21:04
fbrito: as in "arquiteta chefa"? 21:05
fbrito allison: no, it doesn't :)
allison fbrito: interesting (language geek here, asks curious questions)
dukeleto lucian: not only for halloween :)
fbrito allison: some words like "chefe" or "presidente" (president) doesn't do gender agreement
21:06 davidfetter joined
allison fbrito: makes sense 21:06
lucian allison: romanian does do something like that, though 21:07
it's not consisdent, however. doctor doesn't vary with gender
fbrito I, particularly, find portuguese really hard to learn
but not as hard as german :) 21:08
there are some details, like: in english you only have 1 gender (the house, the dog, the cat). in portuguese you have 2 (masculine/feminine), and in german you have 3 (masc/fem/neuter) :( 21:09
rfw ohi Kovensky 21:10
allison fbrito: better than Swahili, it has dozens of genders
fbrito really?! ohh
allison fbrito: trying to remember how to pluralize all of them is a real headache
rfw how do you have more than 2 genders
lucian rfw: plenty of languages have three 21:11
rfw oh i meant 3
lucian neutral tends to be for things that don't reproduce
fbrito and in german you have the 4 cases (genitive, accusative, nominative and dative)
rfw but how do you have dozens of genders
lucian fbrito: that's also quite standard
allison rfw: they go off into all kinds of semantic details like "tree-like" or "cow-like"
rfw masculine, feminine, neuter, notquitemasculinebutslighylfeminine?
oh
lucian rfw: i don't know. how do you only have one gender in a language? (and some do)
allison: haha
allison rfw: but, they play exactly the same role in the language as the masculine/feminine distinction in other languages 21:12
Kovensky <@fbrito> there are some details, like: in english you only have 1 gender (the house, the dog, the cat). in portuguese you have 2 (masculine/feminine) <-- only because everything decays to masculine by default
lucian allison: that sounds like fun
rfw ohi Kovensky
allison lucian: it is fun
rfw decays Kovensky to masculine
allison lucian: and once you learn the rules, it's pretty straightforward. Like, a noun with an "m" prefix always pluralizes with a "wa" prefix 21:13
lucian Kovensky: and it gets worse, in Hungarian there's no gender at all, you have to specify "male" or "female"
allison lucian: "mtu" person, "watu" people
Kovensky lol
hungarian sounds funny ._.
lucian Kovensky: english still has it good
Kovensky tho I've only heard hungarian as sung by Dalriada 21:14
lucian Kovensky: it's funny to hear a Hungarian speak Romanian, as it often happens. they tend to get genders all wrong
Kovensky lol
lucian like: He's the chief architect(female) of Parrot. (speaking of allison)
Kovensky brazilians tend to get english sentence order wrong :/ 21:15
whiteknight I have to sign off. Be on later
rfw bye whiteknight
lucian Kovensky: that's a bit funny too
21:15 whiteknight left
Kovensky and most of them memorize the meanings of words instead of learning them so they take EVERY word at face value 21:15
and mostly only learn one or two meanings so they're completely lost at parsing semantics
rfw Kovensky: how is your english so good ._.
lucian Kovensky: meh, i guess that's a general rule for people not yet proficient in a certain language
Kovensky rfw: no idea =p 21:16
rfw Kovensky: you still have that accent though :(
Kovensky lucian: randomgraphs.blogspot.com/2009/06/f...ation.html
fbrito Kovensky: did you go to an english school or learned all by yourself?
Kovensky rfw: which is russian for some reason, at least according to Emess 21:17
rfw LOL
Kovensky fbrito: by myself
fbrito wow :D. really nice
rfw Kovensky: well, half of everyone online says i'm british
so ._.
Kovensky fbrito: I attended classes on CCAA ~6 months
rfw inb4newzealandisacolonyofbritain
Kovensky +for
but they weren't that much helpful
rfw -much
Kovensky rfw: at least you don't speak sheepese ;)
rfw baa 21:18
time to make another retake at this screencast again :(
dukeleto rfw: i am excited to watch it soon :)
rfw dukeleto: i just don't want to mess it up five times over :(
it's also very boring
dukeleto rfw: put some good music in the background 21:19
rfw: i have seen lots of screencasts that do it. It really helps
rfw i could put that in later
but my music collection isn't very uh
dukeleto rfw: perhaps some speed metal/
rfw it's very "unique"
Kovensky knows
Kovensky I can send you some Moonsorrow 21:20
:P
rfw wtf is moonsorrow
is there a sunjoy
Kovensky some finns
but I guess their song would be too "slow"
so put Demetori 21:21
rfw maybe i should just put some instrumental tōhō in the background
dukeleto rfw: instrumental is good for a screencast
rfw yes, tōhō
Kovensky why are you using macrons
rfw i dunno
Kovensky stop trying to hide your hobbies :P
rfw shut up ;___;
Kovensky: demetori is kinda fast though
and loud 21:22
Kovensky isn't fast good
rfw is it?
for a screencast?
fbrito it depends on how fast you speak, i guess
Kovensky if you want slow you could use that one where they slew down some Justin Bieber song by 8x and it sounds like some ambient music
rfw ohgodno
fbrito ahahhahaha
rfw also >slew
Kovensky: so do they play baby x8 slower in elevators now 21:23
er 8x*
Kovensky they should
it actually sounded rather decent
rfw "when you hear it you will shit bricks"
Kovensky: do you have a link
i don't particularly want to google "justin bieber" 21:24
Kovensky www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI0jAW7s0YY&hd=1 <-- just use this :D
rfw oh i found it
Kovensky rfw: ask kuu on rizon
dukeleto hits his gavel for order in the court
rfw oh, back on topic
Kovensky goes back to mla
dukeleto writes some tasks to challenge these darn youngins 21:25
dalek tracwiki: v29 | fbrito++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide 21:27
tracwiki: Add parrot-users list
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
Kristaba Can someone can check few lines I wrote using the PMC system, to see if my code seems correct, please? 21:37
pastebin.com/urz0Y32g
21:40 jan left 21:42 jan joined
Kristaba If it's right, it should chack if the PMC is an array, and if it is, check if the array size is less than 3. Then, it get float value (if it's possible of course) of the first and the second element of this array 21:42
dalek tracwiki: v30 | fbrito++ | NewParrotDeveloperGuide 21:43
tracwiki: Add GitHub README link
tracwiki: trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/NewParr...ction=diff
fbrito Kristaba: about line 10
I think it sounds better if you do INTVAL size = VTABLE_elements(interp, value) on line 9 and line 10 just "if (size <=2)" 21:45
Kristaba Yes, you're right ;)
fbrito pastebin.com/CSxdDNw1
it sounds more readable :D
Kristaba Of course, thank you! 21:46
fbrito but I am not sure if your whole code is going to work. on which task are working?
Kristaba This task : www.google-melange.com/gci/task/sho...9104235563
fbrito Really nice :D 21:48
Kristaba The PMC concept seems very powerful, but a bit complicated when you start to code with, I think :p 21:49
Yes, this task is very interested, but need to learn a lot of different things 21:51
cotto_work dukeleto: no luck on a group ACM subscription. The closest thing they have is corporate subscriptions that start at $very_expensive and go up. 21:53
fbrito Kristaba: I am working on: www.google-melange.com/gci/task/sho...9130043418 21:54
21:55 rfw left
fbrito I need to make sure that $m[1,1,3]; and $m{Key.new(1,1,3)} throw exceptions :P 21:55
Kristaba fbrito: Yeah, very nice too! :D 21:56
fbrito Kristaba: But I am still figuring out what functions and macros (and in which order) are called when I do those kind of things 21:57
Kristaba fbrito: Yes, it's a *really* GCI difficult task ;) 21:59
22:01 Andy left
dukeleto cotto_work: perhaps OSUOSL can help 22:01
cotto_work: they have ties to the university, who already pays for access, probably. Perhaps something can be done. 22:02
22:03 Benabik joined 22:06 rfw joined
cotto_work dukeleto: excellent idea 22:06
asking about it now 22:08
nope 22:17
Benabik Is it my imagination, or is most of the PCT documentation out of date? 22:21
dukeleto Benabik: it is not your imagination 22:23
Benabik: which docs are you talking about in particular?
Benabik dukeleto: PDD29 and the "Implementing Languages on Parrot" section of docs.parrot.org 22:24
dukeleto: If I'm looking at the code right, things are spelled HLL:: instead of PCT::HLL and nqp-rx has absorbed PGE.
dukeleto Benabik: what part of the docs are you finding to be out of date? We will fix it.
Benabik: yes, it is a somewhat recent change. All of our docs didn't get updated. 22:25
Benabik: nqp-rx is the successor to PGE, but many things are still based on PGE.
aloha msg whiteknight i have a task template for parrot tasks, this should make your life easier: github.com/leto/gci/blob/master/te..._task.html
is aloha down? 22:26
cotto_work: see the above link as well
cotto_work aloha: help
aloha cotto_work: Ask me for help about: msg, convert, status, vars, karma, auth, seen, maths, translate, infobot, clock, loader (say 'help <modulename>').
cotto_work msg aloha aloha
Benabik dukeleto: I'm not sure what parts exactly are out of date. Just starting to dive in and noticing that mk_language_shell.pl doesn't reference PGE or the PCT namespace.
cotto_work bacek: aloha doesn't seem to be taking messages
Benabik dukeleto: Also, running mk_language_shell.pl results in a few $Revision$ tags. 22:27
dukeleto Benabik: I am sorry to tell you that mk_language_shell.pl is broken right now, and it is mostly my fault. 22:28
Benabik: I helped transition Parrot to Git, and all our tools were migrated, except mk_language_shell and create_language
Benabik dukeleto: Good news is that it still seems to produce a working language. :-D 22:29
dukeleto Benabik: i think, after recent work from moritz++, they can be fixed easily
Benabik: yes, only the way that it checks for the version of parrot is not working correctly
Benabik dukeleto: I'm working on a presentation on Parrot for a compiler class. I'll try to write up a couple notes on where the docs don't match reality. And if I get the time, a couple patches to parrot.git/docs 22:33
dukeleto: Knowing that things are known to be out of sync helps keep me from running in circles.
cotto_work Benabik: If you see something you think is inconsistent between the docs and the code, please let us know. There's a good chance you're correct. 22:34
dukeleto Benabik: we welcome any and all doc patches that you can send us
Benabik: and we would love to see your presentation about Parrot, if that is possible :) 22:35
Benabik dukeleto: I'm sure there'll be a PDF on the web at the end. Don't expect anything too detailed, I've only got 15 minutes to give an overview. :-) 22:36
dukeleto Benabik: what level class is this for?
Benabik: an introduction from the perspective of someone on the outside is exactly what we need :)
aloha clock? 22:37
aloha dukeleto: dukeleto: LAX: Fri, 14:37 PST / CHI: Fri, 16:37 CST / NYC: Fri, 17:37 EST / UTC: Fri, 22:37 UTC / LON: Fri, 22:37 GMT / BER: Fri, 23:37 CET / TOK: Sat, 07:37 JST / SYD: Sat, 09:37 EST
Benabik dukeleto: Grad compiler construction. Supposed to be a bit of an overview and comparison.
dukeleto aloha msg aloha anybody home?
Benabik cotto_work: Since I don't know what the code does yet, I'm not sure where it doesn't match, although the PCT book and PDD seems to reference PGE a lot more than the code generated from mk_language_shell.pl does.
dukeleto aloha msg whiteknight have all tasks from the GCI parrot wiki page been transferred to melange?
bacek_at_work: is aloha not working? She doesn't respond to message requests. 22:38
lucian hmm quokforge.org/projects/horizon/wiki
dukeleto Benabik: very cool. is your pres only on parrot? Or is parrot just one thing you talk about?
Benabik dukeleto: Intending to talk about creating a new HLL, so it'll touch on what Parrot is, NQP-rx, and the rest of the PCT. 22:39
cotto_work Benabik: I mean if you find that the docs say one thing but the programs you're trying to use act differently. I don't expect that you'll know what most of the code does quite yet.
Benabik cotto_work: So far, looks like mostly naming differences, but same functionality. 22:40
dukeleto Benabik: nqp-rx can do regexen, PGE only supported them in a very limited way. You can mention that. 22:41
22:41 rfw left
Benabik cotto_work: Although I don't know how well the PIR scripts that test grammars with PGE and PCT::HLL work anymore. (docs/book/pct/ch0[34]*) 22:43
22:55 bacek_mobile joined
bacek_mobile Cotto, meh. I broke my box at work yesterday. 22:56
22:57 rfw joined 22:58 fperrad left 23:15 preflex left 23:17 preflex joined
cotto_work seen whiteknight 23:34
23:38 Benabik left
dalek rrot/leto/embed_grant: eaa40a9 | dukeleto++ | docs/embed.pod:
s/type signature/function signature/ and clarify what Pi means
 23:41
rrot/leto/embed_grant: 9d74e5f | dukeleto++ | docs/embed.pod:
Clarify what the structure of a Parrot function signature describes
 23:44
23:51 nwellnhof left
dukeleto Coke: yes, just verified. Our docs say the 1st ever initialized parrot interp must be used to create all others 23:52
bacek_at_work aloha, seen bacek 23:53
aloha bacek_at_work: bacek was last seen in msg 1 days 13 hours ago <private message>.
bacek_at_work ok, aloha is fixed now.
sorear What is the deal with that anyway? 23:55
Why can't I just create interpreters whenever I feel like it?
dalek rrot/leto/embed_grant: 69533d8 | dukeleto++ | docs/embed.pod:
Document interpreter flags in docs/embed.pod
 23:56
dukeleto sorear: i am loading bytecode in many different interpreters. Some I trust. Others I don't. 23:57
cotto_work aloha msg aloha aloha 23:59
aloha cotto_work: OK. I'll deliver the message.
cotto_work msg bacek_at_work thanks
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.

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