Parrot 3.0.0 Released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Goals: Fix ipv6-related failures | Test imcc_interfaces and annotations-tree branches
Set by moderator on 31 January 2011.
mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#8094) fulltest) at 3_0_0-497-g4c0e404 - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (g++-4.5) 00:02
dukeleto ~~ 00:10
mikehh bacek_at_work: got a bunch of codetest failures in generational_gc branch, you want me to fix (except mabe c++ comments)
cotto_work hi dukeleto
dukeleto cotto_work: wazzup 00:15
we have a release tomorrow, eh? 00:17
cotto_work a week from tomorrow
dukeleto ah, that makes more sense 00:18
cotto_work you must be living in the future
dukeleto is from THE FUTURE
dukeleto also FIGHTS FOR THE USERS
dukeleto just got back from the new Tron movie
dalek p-rx/nom: 6e82a8e | jonathan++ | / (4 files):
First cut at role summation, so a class can do multiple roles (and if this works then probably so does roles doing roles). Took a couple of liberties since NQP doesn't have roles with anything other than $?CLASS being generic. Can beat my brane up with the harder case when doing Rakudo's meta-objects.
 00:19
Tene dukeleto: I very much enjoyed it. You too?
dukeleto Tene: indeed. It has many subtle jokes
TimToady no spoilers! 00:20
cotto_work +1
Tene I never actually saw the original, fwiw.
dukeleto Tene: i don't remember it, if that is worth anything :)
cotto_work The original was novel mostly for the way it was filmed, iirc. It didn't seem that special to me, not remembering having seen it growing up. 00:21
dukeleto saw the 3D version 00:23
2D isn't enough D
dalek p-rx/nom: 2b9c270 | jonathan++ | t/nqp/56-role.t:
Some basic tests for roles, especially $?CLASS genericity.
 00:29
p-rx/nom: 67623b5 | jonathan++ | t/nqp/56-role.t:
Few more tests.
 00:33
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cotto_work I'm holding out for the 4D version. 00:34
dukeleto cotto_work: how is your lorito spec'ing ? 00:39
Ok, who *actually* understands parser derivatives ? 00:40
TimToady: is there a Zen koan for understanding all the different types of parsers and how they compare and contrast? 00:41
TimToady Yes, there's a koan for that, but no one knows it. 00:42
dukeleto TimToady: i figured 00:43
TimToady: the palimpset that it was written on now contains the source code to Windows 3.1 in Braille, probably. 00:44
TimToady the Braille was probably printed with an Uzi, in fact
dukeleto laughed so hard he hurt himself 00:45
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kid51 (dinner not ready yet) 00:47
arnsholt dukeleto: Jeffrey Kegler on blogs.perl.org has written a fair amount about different kinds of parsers 00:48
(If you haven't already read his posts)
dukeleto arnsholt: i'm not sure, the name sounds familiar 00:49
arnsholt He's the author of Parse::Marpa on CPAN, a sophisticated Earley parser module 00:50
Parses many kinds of CFG in linear time, apparently
He's also written a bit about how Perl 5 is parsed, and why he doesn't like yacc 00:51
dukeleto arnsholt: ah yes, i have been reading his stuff, but haven't looked at the code 00:52
whiteknight dukeleto: I understand the theory of parser derivatives 00:56
never put one together in practice
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dukeleto whiteknight: i guess i should just read the original paper i have laying around somewhere 01:00
whiteknight it's a.....complicated read 01:01
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dalek rrotsharp: 3337dab | Whiteknight++ | README.markdown:
add a README
 02:03
bacek_at_work mikehh, go for it. 02:04
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kid51 looks at perl 5 newsgroups for first time in several months 02:31
bacek_at_work kid51, (mmd in pmc2c) Pretty much everything which much "mmd" in Pmc2c isn't used anymore. 02:40
Parser.pm line 296. 02:41
(Start from this)
kid51 k
cotto ~~
dalek rrotsharp: 68517e4 | Whiteknight++ | / (8 files):
Parrot_PMC is now an abstract type. Add in stubs for Interpreter, Null, and Exception PMC types
 02:44
rrotsharp: cf4fd2e | Whiteknight++ | / (3 files):
remove a few more concrete references to Parrot_PMC
rrotsharp: 4428817 | Whiteknight++ | src/Pmc/PackFile.cs:
Add in a stub for PackFile
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dalek rrot: db4035b | jkeenan++ | / (5 files):
Move all subroutines from lib/Parrot/Pmc2c/MethodEmitter.pm to
 02:46
rrot: 58925b9 | jkeenan++ | / (5 files):
Merge branch 'tt2000_methodemitter'
cotto dukeleto, ping 02:52
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dalek rrot/generational_gc: b0fb755 | bacek++ | src/pmc/class.pmc:
Write-barriering Class PMC
 03:18
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benabik dukeleto: ping 03:29
dukeleto benabik: pong 03:32
benabik dukeleto: Wouldn't say I'm an expert on parser derivatives, but I've been reading up on them.
dukeleto: I understand them enough to try to implement them, but haven't yet... I'm sure lack of knowledge will appear quickly when I try. 03:33
dukeleto benabik: what are thinking of using? 03:36
benabik dukeleto: I was actually pondering writing it in NQP... 03:37
benabik had a dream of Perl 6 rules compiling to derivatives... 03:38
sorear What are derivatives good for?
dalek rrot/generational_gc: 80f2597 | mikehh++ | src/gc/gc_gms.c:
fix c coda, update copyright, remove trailing whitespace and remove svn $Id
rrot/generational_gc: f5b275d | mikehh++ | src/gc/gc_gms.c:
fix incorrect indenting in preprocessor directives
 03:39
rrot/generational_gc: d1447d5 | mikehh++ | src/gc/gc_gms.c:
fix codetest failure - c parens

parentheses should not have space immediately after the opening
   parenthesis nor immediately before the closing parenthesis
  (are the parens in POBJ2GEN correct - line 128 differs from 129/130)
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rrot/generational_gc: 0f755c0 | mikehh++ | src/pmc.c:
fix codetest failure - c parens
dukeleto sorear: matt.might.net/articles/parsing-wit...rivatives/
benabik dukeleto: Someone brought a copy of "Yacc is Dead" to my compiler class before the holidays and it's been rattling around since. 03:40
*rattling around in my head
mikehh bacek_at_work: just a start - need some sleep, will work on more later 03:41
bacek_at_work mikehh, ok 03:44
dukeleto sorear: they are a new structure that seems to have lots of CS people arguing 03:46
cotto fsvo "new"
sorear sounds theoretically very interesting
dukeleto cotto: touche. 1964 is "new" in terms of math, but not so much in CS ;) 03:47
sorear is it likely to interest people who just want to get a p6rules implementation going faster?
benabik With appropriate memorization and laziness, they're apparently rather efficient. Although I've been pondering how tough it'll be to include zero-width assertions.. 03:48
dukeleto sorear: it is supposedly a much more flexible parsing tool, that can be easily modified. That is what they say, anyway
sorear: perhaps, I don't know the details of p6rules
cotto It'd be most interesting to see what pmichaud has to say about that.
dukeleto benabik: you might want to send some of your ideas to parrot-dev and/or perl6-compiler and you may get some free help 03:51
benabik dukeleto: I need to find the tuits to even start. If I can finish my compiler project, I'll have time but I'm running behind, not ahead on that one. 03:52
dukeleto benabik: concentrate on your project first, but just write down your ideas and keep track of them
sorear my practical interest in exotic parsing technology comes from frustration with the speed on all current Perl 6 parsers
dukeleto benabik: github is your friend ;)
sorear although this seems to be a red herring at this point 03:53
cotto aloha, clock?
aloha cotto: LAX: Mon, 19:53 PST / CHI: Mon, 21:53 CST / NYC: Mon, 22:53 EST / UTC: Tue, 03:53 UTC / LON: Tue, 03:53 GMT / BER: Tue, 04:53 CET / TOK: Tue, 12:53 JST / SYD: Tue, 14:53 EST
benabik dukeleto: My idea so far is "translate scala to NQP". :-D Not sure I need a git repo to keep that one. 03:55
dukeleto needs a git repo for everything 03:56
bacek_at_work dukeleto, github.com/bacek/everything - feel free to commit everything :) 03:57
cotto bacek++ 03:58
bacek_at_work spam in TT#985
cotto not for long
nuked 03:59
thanks for reporting
There's been an upsurge recently, but we're in the fortunate place were "upsurge" means "3 spam posts in the last week". 04:00
benabik I do have 64 git repos hanging around my $HOME.
cotto Maybe we should ask for bank account numbers before we give out wiki edit bits.
benabik, there should be an achievement for that 04:01
benabik I'm honestly surprised it's not higher. I've been using git for >4 years judging by my commits in git.git
Must have nuked some along the way. 04:02
cotto allison, ping 04:08
04:17 ryan left
cotto atrodo, ping 04:25
dukeleto benabik: there ya go github.com/bacek/everything
bacek_at_work dukeleto, github.com/bacek/everything/commit...06d2221210 :) 04:27
cotto It was only a matter of time. 04:28
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dukeleto GCI Stats: google-opensource.blogspot.com/2011...stics.html 04:56
75 05:03
that was my keyboard falling on the ground, in case anybody was wondering :) 05:04
cotto how orderly 05:06
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adu hi all 05:29
sorear Hello adu.
dukeleto adu: howdy
adu the parser is going well 05:30
dukeleto adu: which parser?
adu hackage.haskell.org/package/language-go 05:31
dukeleto ah, the go parser
adu anyways, now that I have a parser, I can start worrying about runtime, and I would like to use Parrot as the runtime 05:32
dukeleto adu: sweeeet
adu: let us know how we can help
adu now Go is supposed to be compiled to binary, but there's no reason why it can't be bytecode/pbc
dukeleto adu: parrot has something called "fakecutables" which is just bytecode embedding into a native OS binary 05:33
s/embedding/embedded/
adu well, the parser is still iffy, it only parses like 10% of the standard go library
dukeleto: wow, I didn't know that 05:34
that would make for wonderful distribution ideas
hmm
well, I totally forgot about parrot in the last year or so, what should I target? PIR? PASM? PBC? 05:36
dukeleto adu: target PIR, for now 05:37
adu: from PIR, you can get PBC
adu: we are making it easier to get from PIR to PBC now, but it is still reasonable
adu: you can do parrot -o foo.pbc foo.pir 05:38
adu ok
dukeleto adu: what language are you writing the stuff that will emit PIR? haskell? 05:39
adu yes 05:40
i just found hackage.haskell.org/packages/archiv...e-PIR.html
dukeleto: I might just emit text 05:42
dukeleto: do you like Go? 05:46
dukeleto adu: i am interested to learn more about it, but i am not very familiar with it 05:55
plobsing adu: that hackage parrot library looks a little dated. low-numbered registers aren't assigned by convention anymore 05:56
cotto I wonder if audreyt had something to do with it.
dukeleto plobsing: that looks like it will take care of a bunch of stuff for you, but like plobsing++ said, might need a little love
adu ok, I'll try text then
dukeleto: Go is basically C + lambdas + type inference + light threads + I/O + type-switch 05:58
plobsing don't forget multi-return. I loves me some multi-return. 06:00
adu lol
yes, I only listed about half of Go's features, of course 06:01
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adu but anyways, the primary Go implementation (not gccgo) uses a very nonstandard customized ABI specific to Go's requirements 06:02
as such, it doesn't work with C code (unless you do some marshalling) 06:03
to make matters worse, that marshaling can't be done in either C or Go, but it can be done in assembly 06:04
anyways, one of the reasons why I'm doing this is to have better manipulexity of Go code 06:05
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dukeleto <2 hours for OSCON proposals, in case anybody was wondering 06:06
cotto: submitting any OSCON talks?
cotto dukeleto, I hadn't planned on it. 06:07
adu I wonder if they would let me talk about how much I love Go 06:10
dukeleto cotto: are you planning on going to any confs this year? Perhaps we can meet up and have a little hackathon at LinuxFest NW ? 06:19
cotto: i think i will submit some talks to that. It is pretty close to you, right?
cotto checks 06:20
it's a little closer than Portland 06:22
bacek_at_work cotto, I would like to put (do nothing for now) PARROT_GC_WRITE_BARRIER macro into master. 06:23
Just to prepare for future merge of gen_gc.
cotto bacek_at_work, how would that make the merge easier?
bacek_at_work cotto, we have to update HLLs to use them...
Not sure is it covered by deprecation policy or not.
cotto bacek_at_work, it's not a deprecation issue because we're not removing functionality. 06:24
bacek_at_work we are changing it.
but I hope rakudo, partcl and lua will be happy to get faster parrot :)
cotto It's hard to deprecate not having a thing. 06:25
but I see your point
We can put it in now and say that not having them in place is deprecated, I guess. 06:26
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bacek_at_work and wait until after 3.3? 06:26
cotto yeah, unfortunately
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bacek_at_work otoh, it's only 3 places in rakudo to use this macro (3 so far) 06:27
cotto dukeleto, is there anything special about LinuxFest NW? It looks like a pretty generic event.
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cotto bacek_at_work, I do like that we can add a noop macro for the transition. What code will require it? 06:30
bacek_at_work which poke into PMC from vtables not marked with :write.
Usually it's .invoke
Check Sub PMC in gen_gc branch 06:31
cotto so that should be reasonably easy to detect by looking at code
bacek_at_work mm
not always
but something like SET_ATTR is main suspect. 06:32
or "cache"
cotto I wish those macros weren't so clunky. It's very tempting to poke directly.
dalek rrot/generational_gc: c476e3e | bacek++ | src/pmc/sub.pmc:
Use canonical SELF instead of _self in Sub PMC
bacek_at_work Sometimes.
dukeleto cotto: i hear it is a very good conf, that is about it. more grassroots and less corporate, is the vibe i get 06:33
cotto dukeleto, I get that feeling from the site.
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sorear Is it possible to instrument the generational GC to blow up if people change pointers without declaring a barrier? 06:33
dukeleto cotto: everyone i talk to seems to have a great time there. I've never been, so I want to fix that.
sorear: that might be a nice feature
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cotto dukeleto, good enough for me 06:35
06:36 cosimo left
cotto dukeleto, do you know anyone in the area? 06:38
dukeleto cotto: i know a few people in Seattle, none in bellingham 06:39
cotto: you count, right? ;) 06:40
cotto Redmond, but yes.
I'm realizing that I need to start blocking off my schedule for conference season. 06:41
dukeleto cotto: indeed. 06:43
cotto: i have some friend near Redmond that I need to visit. I will definitely let you know when I am in your neck of the woods 06:44
cotto: this might help you a bit www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?events
bacek_at_work sorear, I've got self-validation functionality in debug builds 06:45
sorear, helped me a lot
cotto dukeleto, www.funnycatpix.com/_pics/relevant_...rests1.jpg
dukeleto, I had no idea so many perl events were going on. 06:47
dukeleto cotto: yeah, me neither 06:49
also, the Perl Ecosystem Group can provide travel support to people that want to give Perl talks at non-Perl confs
and Parrot is in the Perl ecosystem, at least in my book 06:50
dukeleto goes for his 3rd and final OSCON talk proposal
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bacek_at_work sigh... Lua is crashing badly on gen_gc... 06:59
cotto dukeleto, privmsg ping
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dukeleto bacek_at_work: have you tried logarithms? 07:09
bacek_at_work dukeleto, erm... what? 07:23
dalek nxed: r801 | NotFound++ | trunk/winxedst1.winxed:
fix: ClassSpecifier failed to check dowarnings, Issue16, plobsing++
 07:24
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cotto OSCON talk submitted after a brief near-death experience 07:53
07:53 shockwave joined
moritz huh, what happened to you? 07:54
hope you're allright
cotto the proposal, not me
chrome doesn't handle the back button as nicely as firefox 07:55
adu Chrome is weird 08:00
when it's busy I type into the URL bar, and it totally forgets what I said 08:01
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dukeleto bacek_at_work: xkcd.com/451/ 09:22
09:38 adu left 09:52 contingencyplan left
dalek rrot: 905dd32 | bacek++ | / (3 files):
Get rid of PObj_is_special_FLAG. They are all special now.
 10:51
rrot: 22250ca | bacek++ | include/parrot/pobj.h:
Add need_write_barrier_flag and standard flags setters
rrot: 56eae14 | bacek++ | include/parrot/gc_api.h:
Add GC_WRITE_BARRIER macro.
rrot/generational_gc: e8cb426 | mikehh++ | t/op/gc.t:
remove trailing whitespace and update copyright
 11:34
rrot/generational_gc: 24478fd | mikehh++ | include/parrot/pobj.h:
remove trailing comma - trailing commas in enums are not legal C89, and update copyright
rrot/generational_gc: 536df45 | mikehh++ | src/pointer_array.c:
fix c function documentation and update copyright
rrot/generational_gc: c30c825 | mikehh++ | src/gc/gc_gms.c:
add c function documentation (probably needs to be reviewed)
mikehh bacek: just ASSERT_ARGS (and c++ comments) left 11:35
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dalek rrot/generational_gc: b5991e3 | mikehh++ | src/pointer_array.c:
fix ASSERT_ARGS (copy/paste?)
 12:16
rrot/generational_gc: bc26f9b | mikehh++ | src/gc/gc_gms.c:
add missing ASSERT_ARGS
rrot/generational_gc: 52889c7 | mikehh++ | src/call/context.c:
add missing ASSERT_ARGS
rrot/generational_gc: 117c0c1 | mikehh++ | src/gc/fixed_allocator.c:
fix ASSERT_ARGS (copy/paste?)
mikehh bacek_at_work: bacek: codetest now passes (except for c++ comments) on generational_gc branch 12:20
bacek_at_work: bacek: you might need to run make headerizer 12:21
mikehh needs a break - bbl 12:26
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dip can I branch 11.2? 13:41
whoops sorry wrong channel
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whiteknight good morning, #parrot 14:20
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benabik Morning! o/ 15:27
whiteknight good morning benabik 15:32
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benabik Had a problem building gen_gc, fixed it and put a patch in a new TT (#2001). Hopefully that was the right place to put it. 16:10
dukeleto ~~ 16:11
cotto_work ~~ 16:12
dukeleto cotto_work: beat ya ;)
16:13 plobsing joined
cotto_work close timing though 16:13
atrodo cotto_work> pong 16:14
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dalek TT #2001 created by benabik++: generational_gc: Add missing ASSERT_ARGS macros 16:19
TT #2001: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2001
dukeleto 2001: A Trac Odyssey 16:22
dalek rrot/generational_gc: a767871 | dukeleto++ | src/gc/ (2 files):
Add missing asserts, benabik++
 16:26
benabik Of course, gen_gc still doesn't pass make test for me, but that made it pass make. :-D
dukeleto benabik: thanks for the patch 16:27
benabik dukeleto: I just saw something wrong that I understood for once. :-) 16:28
dukeleto benabik: yes, it is a good feeling :) 16:29
lucian allison: you asked me once what i think parrot's niche could be 16:34
dukeleto gets popcorn 16:36
dalek TT #2001 closed by dukeleto++: generational_gc: Add missing ASSERT_ARGS macros 16:37
TT #2001: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2001
TT #1999 closed by dukeleto++: Parrot_PMC_get_pmc : Does it work correctly?
TT #1999: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1999
allison lucian: hi
lucian right, hi :)
lucian forgets to salute on irc all the time
allison lucian: so, what're your thoughts? 16:38
lucian allison: after trying to define minipynie, i realised that it should be the simplest possible vm to which all (popular) dynamic languages can be compiled directly
you can't compile python/ruby to the jvm directly, without interpretation
and you most certainly can't do that on llvm 16:39
if interpretation exists at the vm-level only, many interesting things can happen (some of them having to do with performance)
allison lucian: that was the original goal, though ideas have drifted a bit since then 16:42
lucian: at the core, it still is an incredibly simple multi-language vm 16:43
lucian i see. right now it's not really simple and some languages end up being interpreted
allison yes, the current tendency toward running an interpreter on top of an interpreter has disadvantages 16:44
they tell me they couldn't do it any other way
I haven't looked into the implementations, so can't really say
lucian if it really couldn't be done any other way, i think it's a problem with parrot 16:45
allison lucian: but, I would be interested to see minipynie done that way
lucian i'd like to see pynie done that way
allison lucian: yes, it would argue a problem in parrot, but I'm not sure if it means that parrot is "too limited" or "to complex"
lucian there's really no point in targeting parrot if interpretation is needed. might as well target jvm/.net
allison lucian: that is, I'm not sure if we need to strip stuff out of parrot, or add to it 16:46
lucian: maybe a little of both
lucian well, the compilation&execution pipeline is obvious
allison lucian: yes, I agree (on jvm/.net making more sense if you have to write your own runtime anyway)
lucian personally, i think it's missing a skinable system languae 16:47
language
and a way to easily configure types, to derive HLL ones, but that ties into the system language
a very small parrot-specific subset of any language will have semantics similar to winxed 16:48
NotFound Skinable language? Never heard that concept.
lucian NotFound: me neither, i just made it up, really
think of it like lisp reader macros
NotFound Ah, good.
dalek rrot: 310adea | dukeleto++ | config/ (2 files):
Merge branch 'tt1331-osx-conf-fix'
NotFound Winxed semantic is mostly PIR semantic.
lucian NotFound: something like a pythonic alternative syntax for winxed (or whatever other blessed system language)
yes, and that's good for winxed's purposes
but language writers might prefer to write in a language similar to what they're implementing, rather than winxed 16:50
NotFound I can understand that, given that I designed winxed in order to have a language similar to what I like ;) 16:51
lucian so this mythical minipynie could be winxed with a modified parser, and would be used for writing the bits of pynie that can't be written in pure python3
plobsing lucian: how is providing a means of "alternative syntax" different from providing a default compiler backend starting with an AST?
lucian plobsing: well, it's roughly the same thing
but i'm talking about the language you implement your types in 16:52
so you don't have to write any PIR at all
whiteknight yeah, if we have a good compiler-builder library that takes an AST and converts down to PBC, we can put multiple language frontends onto it
lucian the compiler for the full language (in this case, python3) could be written in pure python, to be run on CPython at first
NotFound lucian: not a bad idea, it may workable to break more cleanly the winxed workflow in order to have a pluggable... syntax skin?
plobsing lucian: sort of like what rakudo does with nqp? 16:53
lucian but the python core types need to be implemented in something more akin to PIR
plobsing: yes, similar
it's a good idea
but obviously only for implementing perl or similar
tadzik so it's actually ignoring everything PCT gives?
lucian tadzik: yes, which is sad
dalek TT #1331 closed by dukeleto++: Mac OS 10.5 configuration fix 16:54
TT #1331: trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1331
lucian i'm not convinced this is a good idea at all, btw
plobsing lucian: it is possible to generate PAST without using NQP.
lucian plobsing: but not from outside parrot, right? 16:55
plobsing if we had something like RMI (shudder), it would be possible even then.
NotFound IMO generating pir is far more easier. 16:56
lucian shudders as well
benabik You could, in theory, make a JSON/YAML/* loader for PAST. 16:58
Not sure if that's worth the effort.
plobsing in general, such things are a PITA, but it would allow bootstrapping from the language you want to be programming in from the get-go. with decent proxy-objects, it could even look exactly like a fully hosted bootstrapping solution. The question you've got to ask is: "is working in a non-pythonic language more or less distasteful than RMI/COM/CORBA/etc?"
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NotFound Note that I bootstrapped winxed from C++, which is a lot "foreign" than for example bootstraping a python compiler from cpython. 16:59
End even with that distance, I sometimes confused stage 0 code and stage 1 code %-) 17:00
plobsing yes. please stop doing that. I keep seeing features in commit messages that aren't implemented in st2 yet. 17:01
NotFound So I think a bootstrap from a familiar language is lot more tasteful.
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NotFound plobsing: What? Features commited to stage 0 are backports form stage 1 17:02
Coke tries not to think about partcl while he's supposed to be focusing on coldfusion & sql & various dayjobby things. 17:04
NotFound plobsing: BTW, I'm thinking on a crazy idea: it wll be possible in a ometa based language to have a sort of macro feature that takes code as argument and do some processing with it during compiling? 17:06
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plobsing NotFound: that is explicitly one of the objectives. alessandro has an example of lexically scoped syntax extension somewhere or other (he adds 'say' to Java IIRC) 17:07
NotFound I'm thinking about being to do something like that: derivative(sin(x) ) --> gives cos(x)
With "derivative" able to work with a lot of float expressions.
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plobsing NotFound: would that be a symbolic or numeric solution? 17:07
NotFound plobsing: generating the same code as the symbolic expansion. 17:08
plobsing are you going to implement a whole symbolics package on Parrot yourself? port one? implement a language in which one is already defined?
symbolic math is HARD
NotFound plobsing: not, but buliding the support to ba able to make that work. 17:09
That is, built in the language to support to write the "derivative" package and use it.
plobsing derivative( x <= 0 ? 0 : 1 ) => dirac delta?
NotFound Well, maybe the derivative example is too complex as a first example. Better think about something like C++ templates. 17:11
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lucian benabik: that's not a bad idea 17:11
plobsing PCT makes sense under the assumption that compiler backends are sufficiently complex that we should avoid reinventing the wheel. I think if the backend *has* to be that complicated, Parrot has a problem. 17:13
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whiteknight plobsing: okay, so what does the alternative look like? 17:19
lucian plobsing: i mostly agree. i don't think support for writing backends hurts, but i believe the focus should be on helping to implement core types
this is especially important for existing mature languages, where you can write the compiler in that language (or reuse an existing compiler, much of the time) 17:20
plobsing what I'm coming to realize is that Parrot should be optimized for ease of compiler targetting, to make simple bootstrapping backends feasible (if it isn't already). I'm not sure what specific actions that entails. 17:21
NotFound plobsing: winxed is the proof that it's already feasible. 17:22
plobsing NotFound: yes, but could it be easier?
and how can we make that easier?
lucian NotFound: i think it was already known to be feasible, most languages already compile that way 17:23
NotFound plobsing: I think the answers to that will come from the process of doing more languages that way.
lucian but winxed doesn't need core types beyond what parrot provides
NotFound lucian: winxed is designed that way by deliberate decision, not because of parrot limitations. 17:25
lucian NotFound: i know, but that doesn't make it easier for python 17:26
and it's great design for a parrot system language
whiteknight lucian: let's turn the discussion around a little bit. What do we need to provide to make it as easy as possible for you to start working on the compiler of your dreams? 17:27
What do *you* need
lucian: because I think we all want a Python compiler on Parrot, and I think that being able to write that compiler in Python or something Python-like would make many Python coders happy 17:28
NotFound Or a python subset.
lucian whiteknight: the compiler itself can be written in python and run on CPython 17:29
it just generates code (of some sort)
but in order for anything to work, we need objects and a few other types 17:30
i mean a few other types inheriting from object
tadzik what do we need for language interoperability?
lucian and that would have to be implemented in PIR or winxed
tadzik: inherit from parrot's types
tadzik fair enough
lucian at some point, languages can define how their objects can be exported to other languages in terms of native parrot types 17:31
a sort of FFI, but less foreign
NotFound Feel free to ask any feature for winxed you may need, BTW. No promises, but I'll try my best.
lucian NotFound: you said it can be used to implement HLL types, right? 17:32
whiteknight lucian: Okay, I'm just trying to get this process straightened out in my head. You're going to have a Python compiler, written in Python and running on CPython. It will output PIR or PAST, or something like that?
lucian whiteknight: yep
plobsing lucian: what stops you from writing definitions for your core types in python and compiling these to <language-that-runs-on-parrot-already>?
NotFound lucian: yes, but is an experiment with a few test, will benefit from real world usages.
lucian plobsing: in terms of what would i write these core types?
whiteknight lucian: so why not write your core types in Python too, and just output them as PIR/PBC during the build?
lucian python has no primitives lower level than objects, dicts, lists and tuples 17:33
whiteknight: plobsing: i don't really know how i can do that 17:34
maybe a mock 'parrot' module that the compiler can recognise and do special-case generation? but that also defines a subset of python 17:35
plobsing in terms of runtime, you need to start from somewhere. that somewhere isn't pythonish yet on parrot. that should be fine. implement close approximations to the python core types until you can close your loop of turtles.
lucian and makes the compiler more compicated
NotFound lucian: maybe in a later phase, when having a working compiler with some extension for parrot native usages.
lucian plobsing: i don't see how that would work, in detail 17:36
at least i don't see how it would work without writing PIR *somewhere* 17:37
that PIR would be close to unmaintainable by python developers not familiar with parrot
plobsing a python on parrot system would be close to unmaintainable by python developers not familiar with parrot 17:38
NotFound And for parrot devlopers not familiar with python, too.
plobsing regardless of PIR involvement
lucian i guess
lucian has to go, anyway
plobsing lucian: can you not compile python down to PIR with slightly different semantics for the base bootstrapping stage and implement your pythonish base classes then? 17:39
whiteknight There probably isn't going to be any getting around writing the lowest-level stuff in something that isn't python 17:40
even if you're "writing it" as part of large text literals in Python source
Coke Yah, I'm not sure that avoiding writing things "in parrot" when targetting parrot is a valid base assumption. 17:41
(clearly it can be minimized, but at some point, you're using the VM you're using.)
whiteknight The question really is, what would the hypothetical python compiler use at that lowest level? PIR? NQP? Winxed? 17:43
I suspect Winxed may be the least unpalatable
I don't think Parrot can really provide something with the features/scope like NQP but with pythonish syntax
such a thing could be provided, but I don't think it can be a core goal of ours to do it 17:44
NotFound The advantage of winxed is the easy handling of parrot native int, float and string registers. 17:45
whiteknight yes, that's a key feature
NotFound And its advantage in respect to Close is that winxed exists ;) 17:47
whiteknight I had really high hopes for Close 17:48
I liked what I was seeing of it
too bad Austin got too busy to keep up with it 17:49
NotFound Close was a good idea, but if no one has worked on it...
cotto_work It's only dead if nobody wants to resurrect it.
whiteknight Kakapo is pretty much broken beyond salvaging at this point 17:50
and I know Kakapo was basically the supporting library that Austin was using to build Close
PLA's test suite is broken because Kakapo's test features are too broken at this point to save 17:51
I really do need to get back to fixing PLA at some point
tadzik Close seems awesome 17:52
NotFound We may need a plumage option to skip test or to install ignoring bad test result, BTW.
whiteknight yeah, that might be a good thing, but I still do want to fix PLA's tests so I know if it works so I can make a release
I may have to start working on that tonight, now that I am thinking about it 17:53
tadzik whiteknight: are you aware what's the state of Close? 17:54
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pain-sama hello :) 17:55
tadzik hello pain-sama
plobsing tadzik: it is perpetually almost there
pain-sama hi :)
cotto_work seen chromatic
aloha chromatic was last seen in #parrot 6 days 20 hours ago leaving the channel.
pain-sama I am wondering if it is possible to make a programming (scripting) language using Parrot ?
plobsing pain-sama: do you have one in mind? 17:56
pain-sama yeah :)
but I'm newby xD
Coke is it a port of an existing one, or a brand new one? 17:57
pain-sama it's very similar to JS :)
Coke (pain-sama)
pain-sama new one :)
Coke Ok. there are already efforts in various states for JS itself, and something winxed, which is JS-sort-of-if-you-squint.
plobsing pain-sama: what are the differences? is it identical in object model to JS? 17:58
Coke So yes, definitely possible.
pain-sama my language will be oriented to game development :D
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pain-sama so, can I benefit from parrot in my project ? 18:00
whiteknight pain-sama: yes, we have Winxed which is similar to JS in some ways, and there is a JavaScript port called "Jasper" in development
pain-sama: probably
pain-sama can you please tell me how to get started ? 18:01
i love doing things my self, as long as I can do it xD
so I want to make my own programming language, ever for joy :)
even* 18:02
that's because of my new keyboard :D
NotFound pain-sama: if your language is very similar to javascript a way is to borrow from winxed. 18:03
whiteknight pain-sama: okay, we have a few different example compilers you can look at. We also have a tutorial around here for using NQP to write a compiler
pain-sama what is NQP ?
benabik It's like Perl, but Not Quite. 18:04
pain-sama NotFound that might help xD any link to the project's page ?
ah :)
where can I find the tuto ?
NotFound pain-sama: winxed.org/
pain-sama thanks :D
be right back :) 18:06
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moderator Parrot 3.0.0 Released | parrot.org | Log: irclog.perlgeek.de/parrot/today | Goals: Fix ipv6-related failures | Test imcc_interfaces and annotations-tree branches
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mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#8274) fulltest) at 3_0_0-504-g310adea - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (g++-4.5) 18:28
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NotFound Proof of concept winxed c++ backend able to compile a helloworld program, big progress X-) 18:33
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nopaste "NotFound" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "Bare mininal proof of concept winxed C++ backend" (61 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/30890 18:39
cotto_work NotFound: that's exciting 18:43
NotFound The idea, not the implementation ;) 18:44
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plobsing NotFound: what's the plan with that? check in the generated C++ and not have to maintain a winxed parser/compiler in C++ for st0? 18:46
NotFound In order to be useful it needs at least an obect system able to mimic String, Integer, FileHandle and *Array* PMCs.
plobsing: yes, that will be the goal. 18:47
plobsing All Array PMCs? What types does st1 use? which ones could be stripped out for a bare-bones bootstrap?
dalek rrot: 942932e | nwellnhof++ | NEWS:
Update NEWS
NotFound Just the resizable ones, maybe, and Boolean surely is not used. 18:48
Oh, and I forgot to mentiont Hash 18:49
plobsing can the STL types approximate those?
NotFound I think so.
With string and String limited to one encoding, that is. 18:52
plobsing do you need more than one encoding for bootstrap? 18:54
NotFound I thnk not, but haven't checked that yet. 18:56
dukeleto The next time you can't think of a good name for something, go here: www.classnamer.com 19:11
NotFound ScriptableMessageTester That's good! 19:12
dukeleto that thing is hilarious. We might need editor bindings for that site... 19:13
nwellnhof BasicGirlfriendVisitor, lol
mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#8281) fulltest) at 3_0_0-504-g310adea - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (g++-4.5 with --optimize)
NotFound nwellnhof: at least is Basic, not Advanced 19:14
plobsing SecureGirlfriendImpl 19:15
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cotto_work We need at least one ScriptableLolcatDispatcher, stat. 19:16
dukeleto gets to work
whiteknight LegacyCharacterWindow 19:25
SimpleGirlfriendTokenizer 19:29
That's it. There goes the rest of my work day. 19:32
NotFound For consistency, the site name should be: SimpleClassNamer 19:33
whiteknight AbstractClassNamer
FlexibleFileFactoryFactory 19:37
bacek Good morning, humans 19:38
whiteknight, you lied in your latest post about Parrot's GC :) 19:39
mikehh WhatonEarthWouldYouEverWantaSimpleClassNameFor
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dukeleto BuffaloBuffaloBuffaloFactoryFactory 19:40
this is getting out of hand
mikehh hiho bacek
bacek aloha, mikehh
thanks for fixing codetest in gen_gc
whiteknight bacek: what did I lie about?
mikehh will keep checkin' 19:41
bacek whiteknight, you described GC MS, not GC MS2.
whiteknight I "dramatically oversimplified", but not lied
bacek MS2 maintain list of objects and don't iterate over slabs
whiteknight yes, you're right. I should note that change
bacek And gray objects aren't explicitly coloured. We just create new list of life objects during mark. 19:42
gc_ms2.c, around line 1026 19:43
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bacek Almost same algo as "TriColour M&S" on trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/GCMassacre 19:45
whiteknight I'll mention those specifics in the next post
thanks for pointing them out
bacek You welcome :) 19:46
cotto_work #is in 39 19:50
Coke ingles sketch? 19:51
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cotto_work Coke: yup. I'm unilaterally changing the name. 19:52
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mikehh rakudo (cad076f) - builds on parrot (3_0_0-504-g310adea) - make test, make spectest_smolder[(#8290), roast (b3ef08d)] PASS - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (gcc-4.5 with --optimize) 20:00
27,634 ok, 0 failed, 610 todo, 1,847 skipped and 0 unexpectedly succeeded
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mikehh #ps in 15 20:15
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dalek rrot: 1c71188 | Whiteknight++ | / (3 files):
Merge branch 'whiteknight/callcontext_reset'
 20:16
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whiteknight cotto_work: parrot-instrument is working? 20:22
cotto_work closer to working
whiteknight ah, okay
tadzik what's gson-instrument? 20:23
dukeleto tadzik: gsoc-instrument ? 20:24
tadzik: it allows you to inspectigate parrot while it is running, and generate statistics about who is doing what and what is talking to who 20:25
tadzik: if that makes sense :)
tadzik nice
mikehh #ps time 20:30
benabik mikehh: Lurkers welcome?
mikehh benabik: sure, you can comment too -> #parrotsketch 20:31
it is after all a developer meeting 20:32
dukeleto benabik: COME ON DOWN! 20:36
dukeleto plays The Price Is Right music in #parrotsketch
NotFound No one comment the improved eye candy in example fly? Sigh... 20:37
dalek nxed: r802 | NotFound++ | trunk/winxedst1.winxed:
a better fix for Issue16, plobsing++
Heuristic branch merge: pushed 60 commits to parrot/whiteknight/imcc_compreg_pmc by Whiteknight 20:48
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nwellnhof whiteknight: which of your imcc branches has that GC related bug and how can i reproduce it? 21:20
whiteknight nwellnhof: whiteknight/imcc_compreg_pmc. I was getting it during ops2c in the normal build. I just did a branch merge from master and haven't tried it yet 21:21
the build failed for me after the merge, but I can't debug into it until I get home
nwellnhof whiteknight: i'll see if i can reproduce it 21:22
whiteknight nwellnhof: I would really appreciate it. I think the merge was pretty clean
I'll be working on it as soon as I get home too (about 1.5 hours)
I'm packing up and heading home now, I'll be back on later 21:24
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nwellnhof whiteknight: imcc_compreg_pmc builds fine out of the box here. but i got a segfault in miniparrot after forcing the GC threshold to 128K. 21:26
lowering the threshold is usually the best was to reproduce GC related issues. 21:27
cotto_work nwellnhof: he took off. You might want to msg him in case he doesn't check irclog.
21:28 kid51 left
nwellnhof but that segfault seems to be related to TT #1990. 21:29
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lucian NotFound: do you have any docs on how to use winxed for HLLs? 21:31
NotFound lucian: sorry, no. Let me check if have a example at hand... 21:32
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NotFound The one I had is bitrotten, let me fix it. 21:39
mikehh NotFound: winxed looks fine to me, fly seems much smoother 21:46
NotFound mikehh: good
The improved eye candy may help, too.
mikehh forgot to report that winxed builds and tests ok - on parrot 3_0_0-504-g310adea - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (gcc-4.5 with --optimize) 21:53
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NotFound lucian: example added in r803. Looks a bit odd than it should right now, will improve it in some days. 21:55
dalek nxed: r803 | NotFound++ | trunk/examples/hlltest.winxed:
add an example of the namespace modifier 'HLL'
lucian NotFound: thanks
NotFound Maybe using 'String' for the example was not a good idea, needs some tricks to gets messages printed. 21:56
lucian NotFound: hmm, i get the idea anyway 21:57
NotFound Using a namespace modifier is the way to avoid adding specific syntax. 21:59
lucian NotFound: it's not bad, really
bacek_at_work ~~ 22:00
lucian NotFound: i don't get the newstring function 22:01
nwellnhof aloha msg whiteknight: the segfaults in imcc_compreg_pmc are related to TT #1990. the gc_dynamic_threshold merge triggers them very early. i can build parrot with some Parrot_block_GC_marks in the right places but that's very hackish. 22:02
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aloha nwellnhof: OK. I'll deliver the message. 22:02
NotFound lucian: the MyString content is a String PMC. If we try to create it from a string inside the HLL, we'll get a MyString. 22:03
Maybe is not needed now, I wrote that in the first steps of the experiment.
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lucian_ NotFound: got disconnected 22:05
NotFound: is there no super in winxed?
NotFound ucian: the MyString content is a String PMC. If we try to create it from a string inside the HLL, we'll get a MyString.
wknight-phone nwellnhof, thanks 22:06
hackish is fine
plobsing lucian_: there is no 'super' built in to parrot. it is a known failing of the object system
lucian_ plobsing: i see
plobsing it is possible to cook one up yourself. kakapo does just that.
lucian_ plobsing: i'd very much like others to do that work for me. like NotFound :) 22:07
NotFound lucian_: I have the plan to borrow from the C++ way to call base class methods, but haven't worked on that yet.
lucian_ is really a parrot noob
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wknight-phone ill look at #1990 22:08
lucian_ NotFound: you could have a super() function 22:09
NotFound plobsing: note that the 'super' semantic is not obvious in multiple inheritance.
lucian_ it couldn't be as general as python's since it has an explicit self, but it should work 22:10
plobsing NotFound: agreed
Ī©Ī· gets by through limiting to single inheritance and refering to parent class statically by name 22:11
lucian_ NotFound: this may sound old, but you may want to look into what python does 22:12
NotFound In C++ the usual way is typedef the parent class as 'super' or 'base', or something like that. 22:13
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NotFound If you want that sugar, that is. 22:13
plobsing super implementation depends highly on the object model in question. Parrot should be getting out of the business of enforcing object model (we have a poor track record there). 22:14
NotFound lucian_: I don't have enough python knowledge to be able to borrow from it.
plobsing lucian_: it's just C3 IIRC (correct?)
lucian_ plobsing: yeah, pretty much
the nice bit is that objects methods have an explicit self 22:15
so there's super(ClassName, self).method(bla)
NotFound What I'm thinking about is something like Parent.method() or self.Parent.method()
lucian_ which binds ClassName.method's self to the current self
you just have to be careful about binding self 22:16
plobsing lucian_: that's more general than 'super' though. call it 'cast_call' or something.
NotFound The latter is more verbose, but avois possible ambiguities.
lucian_ in python you can use super more generally , too 22:17
NotFound My personal problem with 'super' is that I like better terminology of base and deriver rather than super and sub classes.
nwellnhof wknight-phone: it seems that it's enough to block GC completely during Parrot_load_bytecode.
lucian_ NotFound: sure, i was just debating that a function might be better than a language feature
so in winxed, parent(ClassName).method(bla) 22:18
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plobsing lucian_: that makes python's assumptions about how class objects work, and is not how parrot's object system currently works 22:19
lucian_ plobsing: using a function? it can do whatever parrot's object system likes
NotFound lucian_: I don't think that may work without special purpose semantic for that pseudo-function. 22:20
lucian_ NotFound: hmm. is there a language-level way to bind self?
plobsing lucian_: self is exposed in winxed. it just happens to be an implicit parameter
lucian_ plobsing: i know. but can you bind it to something else in a particular function?
jnthn Any method can be called as a sub in Parrot just fine, passing whtever you like as the invocant. Just pass it as the first arg. 22:21
plobsing it is just a register
lucian_ like CoffeeScript's => vs ->
plobsing: i see
jnthn So provided you have a way to look up the method in the base class, you can always call it.
NotFound lucian_: AFAIKS there is no way to get that dispatch automatically, you need to find the method in the class and invoke it explicitly. 22:22
plobsing jnthn: yes, but using a syntax which parses as method invocation on the class object is not the right way to do that
22:23 zby_home left
lucian_ NotFound: right. so parent() would have to find the method, bind self to the right thing and return the closure 22:23
jnthn plobsing: I was talking about how to achieve the desired dispatch at a Parrot level, not now the langauge syntax would look.
s/now/how/
lucian_ btw, i think it'd be just fine if parrot used C3, since pretty much every language uses it
jnthn The real answer though is that Parrot shouldn't enforce a definition of class, or just not provide a class implementation at all. 22:24
NotFound lucian_: mmmm... maybe is doable, I'll think about that.
luben jnthn, I have tried the new nqp, nice work, but it seems that I could nor have both nqp and parrot-nqp installed alogside 22:25
jnthn luben: moritz++ mentioned that also...I didn't work out why yet. 22:26
luben: It's certainly not intentional. :)
luben jnthn, ok, no problem. just to mention
jnthn Thanks for doing so. I'll try and work out what's up soon. 22:27
I suspect they may try to install different versions of the same thing to the same place or some such.
NotFound A way to do that migth be to provide a class that dispatch the method, and create such object in the parent function, but that way we get the problem of VTABLE_invoke overrides 22:28
Or maybe not, I must do some experiments. 22:29
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dalek rrot: c6fa8b7 | mikehh++ | src/embed/api.c:
fix codetest failures - add c function docs and ASSERT_ARGS
 22:49
rrot/generational_gc: 310adea | dukeleto++ | config/ (2 files):
Merge branch 'tt1331-osx-conf-fix'
 22:52
rrot/generational_gc: 942932e | nwellnhof++ | NEWS:
Update NEWS
rrot/generational_gc: 1c71188 | Whiteknight++ | / (3 files):
Merge branch 'whiteknight/callcontext_reset'
rrot/generational_gc: e7cb4a1 | bacek++ | / (26 files):
Merge branch 'master' into generational_gc

Conflicts:
  \tinclude/parrot/pobj.h
  \tlib/Parrot/Pmc2c/MethodEmitter.pm
  \tlib/Parrot/Pmc2c/PMCEmitter.pm
  \tsrc/pointer_array.c
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NotFound I've found a trick that may work with a change in the way of dispatching methods in winxxed. 23:10
But I don't think is a good way, needs to call functions and crate auxiliar objects on each invocation.
Mmm, no, it will not work, method cache gets on the way. 23:15
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nwellnhof whiteknight: i merged master into imcc_compreg_pmc locally. is it ok to push the merge and my fix? 23:19
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whiteknight nwellnhof: yessir 23:19
how fixed is it, no more GC-related segfaults? 23:20
nwellnhof whiteknight: i didn't get any 23:21
whiteknight awesome
dalek rrot/generational_gc: c3dd671 | bacek++ | lib/Parrot/Pmc2c/PMC/default.pm:
Bring Pmc2c::default from master. Fix rotest failure
 23:25
mikehh whiteknight: I fixed a couple of codetest failures from your commit, but you might want to check the documentation for Parrot_api_reset_call_signature in src/embed/api.c 23:27
dalek rrot/whiteknight/imcc_compreg_pmc: 73c0355 | nwellnhof++ | src/packfile/api.c:
Block GC during Parrot_load_bytecode

Related to TT #1990		 23:30
mikehh All tests PASS (pre/post-config, make corevm/make coretest, smoke (#8320) fulltest) at 3_0_0-509-gc6fa8b7 - Ubuntu 10.10 i386 (g++-4.5)
nwellnhof whiteknight: i see that you merged master already 23:31
dalek rrot/whiteknight/imcc_compreg_pmc: 327839f | nwellnhof++ | src/packfile/api.c:
Fix TT number
 23:32
nopaste "nwellnhof" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "make test output of whiteknight/imcc_compreg_pmc" (57 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/30912 23:38
nwellnhof i guess that's expected 23:39
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