6.2.7 released! | pugscode.org/ <Overview Journal Logs> | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | Chip needs help!!! www.geeksunite.net
Set by kungfuftr on 30 June 2005.
Juerd Still, do you think it hasin any way to do with Perl? 00:01
Or would it be coincidental?
wolverian I _like_ to think that Perl is a language that suits people who have unconventional tendencies 00:02
I'm not at all sure if it's true :)
(well, actually, I am. but me being true doesn't make it any more true, if you get what I mean. this is what you get for being relativist.) 00:03
er. s,me being true,me being sure,
I need to drink less mountain dew.
Juerd hehe
A year or so ago, my parents found my website and read it. I didn't especially mean to avoid using my real name there, but I did not use it anywhere. 00:04
They asked me "Do you want us to call you Juerd?" 00:05
I was very surprised "No, let's not go that far"
Though sometimes I wonder why not.
wolverian mm.
what is your real real name?
Juerd Jorrit J. Waalboer 00:06
The J. stands for Jelle
wolverian dutch names are nice. :) 00:07
Juerd They're not Dutch 00:11
They're Frisian
So is Juerd
wolverian oh, I'm sorry.
Juerd I'm not Frisian though
Neither are my parents
wolverian ah. educated myself a bit over at wikipedia
Juerd Good night 00:14
wolverian good night. 00:15
kolibrie seen nothingmuch 00:17
jabbot kolibrie: nothingmuch was seen 2 hours 39 minutes 56 seconds ago
wolverian I think I fell in love with ruby. (again) 00:46
svnbot6 r5131, Stevan++ | Perl6-MetaModel : Airport hacking; plane hacking; then some bus-back-to-home hacking; .... hmmm I think I need to install SVK tomorrow. Oh yeah, and I cleaned out the ::Class junk, changed the interface a bit to conform to the real Perl6 meta model (per AS12) added a test and started down the path to MetaRoles :) 01:33
putter wolverian: any interest in working on a p6 implementation of ruby core? 01:34
mugwump stevan: still in transit?
wolverian putter: hmm. maybe. I don't have much tuits though. 01:36
nothingmuch perl: "Easy things are easy, hard things are possible" 03:03
haskell "
haskell: "Hard things are easy, the impossible just happens"
-- autrijus
autrijus corrects: "hard things are easy, impossible things just happen" 03:04
autrijus++
i think i like the paraphrase "hard things are easy, the impossible just happenned" the most, since it's actually quoting, not paraphrasing GHC 03:05
wolverian I think that in perl, the easy things are more convenient than in haskell, but I might be biased. 03:08
putter wolverian: k. my current thought is once namespaces work a bit more, to do a dump of the core with {...} bodies, which can be incrementally fleshed out. tests, and core .rb files, can hopefully be, at least partially, automatically transliterated. 03:09
wolverian putter: hm. I'm a bit hesitant about using perl6, yet, actually. I hate running into pugs's limitations. 03:10
autrijus wolverian: sure, in haskell the easy things are incovenient ;) 03:11
wolverian autrijus: heh. :)
autrijus it's all about conservation of complexity
nothingmuch since haskell defines less 03:12
but that less is more reusable, and intercombinable
is that a word?
wolverian isn't combinable enough? :)
nothingmuch the hard things are easy, because there are less details to take care of
combinable with itself
there are less special cases in the language def
s/less/fewer/
wolverian do you mean the syntax or semantics?
nothingmuch semantics 03:13
syntax is nothing
wolverian right.
what do you mean with special cases, then?
nothingmuch autrijus has a wifi antenna on his head, so he does it need syntax
wolverian I think I have an idea what you mean, but it's hazy
nothingmuch every operator in haskell is a first class function
autocurrying is a generic approach that gives you both emulation of multiple params
svnbot6 r5132, chromatic++ | r5198@windwheel: chromatic | 2005-06-30 11:43:55 -0700
r5132, chromatic++ | Allow a plan to run zero tests.
r5133, chromatic++ | r5199@windwheel: chromatic | 2005-06-30 11:46:41 -0700
r5133, chromatic++ | Fix name collision between plan() method and $.plan attribute.
r5133, chromatic++ | Manually pass args to super new() as slurpy params don't yet work.
r5133, chromatic++ | Pass number of results to testplan footer() in DESTROY().
r5134, chromatic++ | r5200@windwheel: chromatic | 2005-06-30 11:49:41 -0700
r5134, chromatic++ | Launch an external test to test DESTROY(). 03:14
r5134, chromatic++ | Test plan setting.
nothingmuch and consistency with the fact that everything is 1 param
wolverian chromatic steals karma!!!
nothingmuch wolverian: you can do that too.
wolverian yes, I know :)
nothingmuch wolverian: anyway, my point is this: haskell is very simple
wolverian forgive me, I've been up all night, waiting for the morning to come so I can go to the doctor.
nothingmuch so simple that complex structures (like monads) are optimizable.
and that many things are safe 03:15
autrijus zzz &
nothingmuch so you can do crazier combinations
and things are sane
he's lying
wolverian nothingmuch: but it moves the complexity elsewhere.
nothingmuch wolverian: but complexity scales down slightly by that transformation
the curve of code complexity vs. problem complexity has a lower ratio
putter 'night autrijus. 03:16
obra evening lambdacamels 03:18
nothingmuch hola obra
obra how's canadia, nothingmuch
?
nothingmuch it's nice 03:19
putter wolverian: re limitations, agreed. a downside is drawing ruby community attention while a) oo pugs is still a work in progress, and b) grammars aren't up to doing ruby, so its "ruby-like p6", rather than a "p6 backend for ruby".
nothingmuch obra: are you already home 03:20
at home? 03:21
wolverian putter: yes. that's why I'm hesitant. I'm thinking about it.
putter upside is much of the grunge work of porting core could be done now, for some value of now, leaving, and clarifying, where things arent ready yet.
I'm tempted to just keep ripper-based transliteration, a ruby grammar, and a p6 core, "simmering" but not checked in, until oo matures enough that all 4 are "almost within reach". Ie, punt for now. 03:23
wolverian: doctor? 03:28
putter hopes it's nothing too serious...
obra nothingmuch: yes. drove 10 hours today 03:29
wolverian putter: just a test for a suspected slight thyroid gland thingie.
(sorry if that was too much information :) 03:30
QtPlatypus Is there anyway of doing :d on a file? 03:36
wolverian stares at QtPlatypus 03:38
lick your nose on a file?
QtPlatypus No dump the parse tree for this file (in pugs0 03:39
)
wolverian oh.
I dunno.
putter ah, np, hope it goes well. (standard one-liner advice #001: have someone along to serve as a patient (you) advocate. there is so much potential for... cruft/complications/etc, when there isnt a "project manager" along) 03:41
Daniel_Nee Hi, Autrijus: If you hear me, could you please let me know where are you and when will you be back, thanks. 03:47
putter 'night & 03:49
nothingmuch Daniel_Nee: autrijus says he will be back in 72 hours 04:09
he is still in toromnto
nothingmuch just wrote UNIVERSAL::isa 04:10
(a module, not a function)
=head1 NAME
UNIVERSAL::isa - Hack around stupid module authors using UNIVERRSAL::isa as a
function when they shouldn't.
wolverian haha. 04:11
what does it do?
nothingmuch on the cpan shortly 04:12
short answer:.
replaces UNIVERSAL::isa with a version that does a check on the first argument
if it is an object, and the object overrides 'isa', then a call to 'isa' as a method on the object is made
in all other scenarios the original 'UNIVERSAL::isa' is goto'd
sili_ interesting. 04:13
wolverian nice.
nothingmuch i hope chromatic will make Test::MockObject use it
wolverian can you make it output a warning like 'read perldoc -f eval' now and then randomly? 04:14
nothingmuch eval?
oh, like for eval { } ...?
wolverian yeah.
nothingmuch ah
well, they can just 'use UNIVERSAL::isa qw/isa/'
and then use it as a function
it's still safe
wolverian indirect object notation overrices? 04:15
er. RIDES.
nothingmuch btw, for fun regarding 'eval {}', read the source of pure perl Scalar::Util::bless and overload::StrVal
uh, i doubt it
if there is a symbol in the current package, it should be a function call 04:16
(i think)
it basically does a bless check for you
wolverian right.
nothingmuch so the function form is OK
wolverian I just read it as 'use UNIVERSAL qw/isa/' and was confused 04:17
sorry. :)
nothingmuch ah
that would also work
as long as UNIVERSAL::isa (the module) was 'use'd beforehand
wolverian why?
nothingmuch uh, sorry 04:34
i lost myself
because UNIVERSAL::isa is overridden
and the original is only stored in a lexical afterwords 04:35
it is no longer available by name.
i'm off to bed
read the code, it is up on the cpan
or actually 'it will be soon'
coke__ smacks Damian.
nothingmuch pause.perl.org/pub/PAUSE/authors/i....01.tar.gz 04:38
coke__: huh?
coke__ contextual::return 04:40
nothingmuch i so don't want to know what that means at this hour 04:42
svnbot6 r5135, geoffb++ | Added ext/DateTime and lib/Code-Perl to hack.pod 05:14
CLoCkWeRX o/t question, re chip [sorry guys, you're probably getting it alot]... how big of an effect does this trouble in his life have upon the release cycle of perl 6? 05:41
gaal_ good morning 05:55
geoffb . . . and good night 05:57
geoffb passes off the "awake" baton to gaal_
gaal_ will accept it in a few minutes, after making coffee :)
gaal_ wonders if pugscc is something autrijus can fix while asleep... 06:20
who are all the people on ingy's slides? I recognize some... 06:33
wolverian I'm a recluse, I wouldn't know. :/ 06:36
gaal_ in yapc.kwiki.org/data-driven-testing/slide19.html - when does the http hit actually happen? when you say $block->url, or when you perform the like? 06:39
(does like now accept a closure to be run?)
hahahahahaa! the slides leading up to 26 are quite amusing 06:41
ingy++
wolverian yes. 06:42
:)
where does he get the like() sub from!!! 06:43
gaal_ his Test::Base, of course
wolverian the CPAN version only has run_like() 06:44
(or I'm blind)
gaal_ point
hhhmmm, no, search.cpan.org/src/INGY/Test-Base-...st/Base.pm and look at test_more_exports 06:45
wolverian I'd say that needs documentation!
s,!,, # too much caffeine
gaal_ looks like he's pulling the haskell reexport trick :)
wolverian what is that? I'm completely missing the point of the BEGIN 06:47
gaal_ he imports things on the use line of Test::More
so he needs @test_more_exports populated
at *compile* time 06:48
i didn't know you can pass an arrayref to T:M's import though!
wolverian oh, he's using the array there. yeah. 06:49
gaal_ one place lexical scope results in awkward usage is when you want to preload data in a BEGIN block. i've never liked how that forces you to declare the var outside the block. 06:50
i wonder if p6 will have something like our $OUTER::var :-)
wolverian heh. 06:51
gaal_ not that that's much prettier!
wolverian well, the fact that it works at all is somewhat mind-boggling.
"look, I'm using this variable now, but I promise I'll declare it later!"
gaal_ oh? no, the declaration happened before
look one line above the BEGIN block
remember my is compile time too 06:52
wolverian oh, I thought BEGIN is run before that happens
yeah. okay. :)
thanks for unconfusing me.
gaal_ if that like were to be placed after the BEGIN, you'd get a compilation error
actually, that's part of what makes-perfect-sense-but-gives-awkward-usage:
you can't just put your BEGIN block on the top of your code for everyone to see, you're forced to declare a bunch of stuff before it 06:53
wolverian that's the same as how you have to declare your subs before using them if you don't like to sprinkle your code with useless parentheses 06:54
(admittedly you don't have to _define_ them beforehand, but still..)
gaal_ in p5 i got to always using parens on sub calls because of that 06:55
wolverian will p6 fix it? :) 06:56
gaal_ it's a little early to write a perl 6 style guide though :)
well, there are no barewords in p6...
wolverian exactly my thoughts
gaal_ oooof, how to Show a TVar in a reversible manner? 07:00
wolverian hides under his admin desk and pretends not to hear the scary person 07:02
gaal_ pulls out the Tesla coil 07:03
07:48 gaal_ is now known as gaal
dudley is having a baby 09:37
Or, more accurately, my wife is ; )
meppl youre a harry potter character? :-P 09:45
QtPlatypus dudley: Congratulations. 11:01
dudley QtPlatypus: Thanks! 11:02
pjcj dudley: right now, or in six to seven months? 12:30
and congratulations again
dudley Right now. Actually, we're off to the midwife right now... I'll probably be back in a bit, though. 12:31
pjcj wow!
I seem to remember cwest giving realtime commentary on irc during the the event
though I'm not sure how good an idea that is 12:32
dudley I don't think my wife would appreciate it... I'll see, though ; )
pjcj good luck! 12:33
13:49 Yaakov_ is now known as Yaakov, coke__ is now known as Coke_, Coke_ is now known as _Coke_ 14:38 sbkhh is now known as Odin-
nothingmuch good morning 15:06
too many dreams in one night
kolibrie dreams of good things? 15:09
Limbic_Region is this news to anyone besides me? perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=471746 15:24
sili can't say i expected more 15:25
autrijus lexer and parser needs to be one-pass; that's one of the main points in my hw2005 paper 15:29
I don't think that's a problem really 15:30
but if damian promised otherwise, it's (again) wishful thinking
rehi, btw :) 15:31
kolibrie the compiler and interpreter are still quite separate, correct? 15:32
stevan hey kolibrie 15:34
nothingmuch++ # for UNIVERSAL::isa
_Coke_ answers somethign at the monastary.
Limbic_Region autrijus - what continent are you on today?
kolibrie hey stevan 15:35
autrijus Limbic_Region: still in toronto; 18hrs till going to airport 15:45
_Coke_ autrijus: gah. is it still 100 degrees in the shade? 15:48
nothingmuch morning 15:49
autrijus _Coke_: I don't know, I'm always in a room
meppl good morning nothinmuch 15:52
stevan I dont know about you guys, but sleep deprivation is hitting me like a brick 15:54
I am only just now realizing how little sleep I actually got over those 8+ days 15:55
autrijus stevan: //hand
kolibrie I did okay yesterday, but I'm having trouble today
autrijus stevan: 21 days for me
autrijus is having trouble waking up
stevan autrijus: you are young though, you will bounce back :)
autrijus very true :)
kolibrie stevan: hopefully we'll bounce back, too... 15:56
stevan kolibrie: yes, but not without permanent damage, we are too old :P
autrijus: I realized for the first time the true value of SVK, when I wanted to commit, but was in the airport/plane/bus 15:57
autrijus :)
stevan is downloading it now
autrijus :D
stevan++
shower &
clkao giggles at stevan 15:58
_Coke_ autrijus: doh. I forgot about eval::tcl 15:59
pjcj r5555, autrijus++ | some major submodule hacked whilst eating, sleeping and showering 16:00
stevan clkao: svk.elixus.org/ seems like it is down? 16:01
can I install from CPAN?
autrijus sure can 16:02
stevan cool, I will do that then :)
nothingmuch hola stevan
stevan guten tag nadda mucho
autrijus stevan: rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Project/...1.00-2.dmg 16:03
nothingmuch stevan: try again
it wasn't working for me a few times, and then it started
autrijus stevan: that's .dmg, use it :)
stevan autrijus++ # making my life much easier :)
nadda mucho
that work?
nothingmuch it worked for me 16:04
pdcawley Or possibly more complex. After all, what would you be doing if Pugs didn't exist?
stevan pdcawley: Pugs makes life interesting
complexity ~~ fun
_Coke_ perlbot pmichaud? 16:05
nothingmuch breakfast time 16:06
kolibrie um, lunch time? 16:09
stevan kolibrie: he is still in canada, eh
kolibrie stevan: believe so, till tomorrow 16:10
stevan: oops, forgot the 'eh'
stevan :) 16:11
pdcawley Not denying complexity ~~ fun, but I am questioning complexity ~~ easier
stevan pdcawley: I think pugs has definitely made my life more complex, but it also gives me a great amount of satisfaction, which makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, which makes life more bearable, which means that I can trudge through $work much easier (or at least with much less psychic wear-and-tear) 16:14
so in a very round about way ....
but in this particular case, I was refering to the link to the SVK dmg file :)
kolibrie wonders if he must re-checkout before switching to svk 16:15
stevan pdcawley: BTW - the metamodel is now in fairly decent shape, if you have the time, comments appreciated
kolibrie: IIRC you are not re-checking out, but mirroring the entire repo 16:16
kolibrie so rm -rf pugs/; svk ...
autrijus svk co svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/
integral you don't have to mirror the whole lot, it takes ages. you want svk sync's --skipto option
autrijus hit enter ~inf times
if you don't want to wait, answer 'h' instead of 'a' 16:17
in the "how many revs to mirror" question
that's all
(but by ansering 'h' you los e past history'
kolibrie so 'a' gets all revisions, 'h' gets most recent only? 16:18
autrijus yup
kolibrie is hitting enter ~inf avoidable? 16:19
autrijus er, the ~inf is just like 3 16:20
I think
so should be okay :)
it's a small amount as infinity goes
kolibrie ok, that sounds better 16:21
kolibrie watches svk pull down history, revision by revision 16:26
autrijus hi cwest! 16:33
glad to see you here :)
Limbic_Region pings cwest and wonders when/if he is going to do anything about the abomination that is Tie::SortHash 16:38
Limbic_Region meant that in the most friendly way possible
pasteling "chromatic" at 63.105.17.30 pasted "Trace Showing Destructors Not Being Applied to All Objects (lambda-ers please read)" (76 lines, 2.5K) at sial.org/pbot/11477 16:40
autrijus hm odd. 16:42
cwest heya everyone 16:47
autrijus is still lunching 16:49
cwest too 16:50
autrijus chromatic nopastes but is not on the channel himself
oh well. it looks like some objects are still reachable from the root set
I think I know why
Limbic_Region autrijus - perhaps chromatic is watching the channel log and nopasted - expecting to get the response later 16:51
autrijus nod 16:52
ingy hi autrijus
autrijus yo ingy
you made it safely back? 16:53
ingy yes, and slept
autrijus cool. I think I'll nap again
sleep deprivation is hitting me like a torrent of bricks
nothingmuch waves 16:54
stevan hey ingy 16:55
$work sucks :P
Limbic_Region too bad there wasn't a way to remove your brain from your body when you slept so as to not consume energy solving problems when it is supposed to be resting
stevan the net connection to our servers are down 16:57
now i really really really want/need SVK
kolibrie distributed is very handy in that situation 16:59
stevan yes
and a Supreme court justice is resigning
stevan thinks maybe he should have stayed in Canada
pdcawley stevan: Where's the meta stuff? Going to download and print it for persual in a more comfy chair... 17:02
_Coke_ wonders if anyone in perldom has met ingy when he was not operating under the influence or sleep deprivation. 17:06
nothingmuch i think ingy has but one state 17:08
stevan pdcawley: lib/Perl6-MetaModel
nothingmuch i'll call it "dude".
_Coke_ people irc as root? huh. 17:10
pdcawley ç
Kewl. 17:11
kungfuftr castaway: *poke* 17:14
ingy hi nothingmuch 17:15
hi stevan
nothingmuch hi ingy 17:18
ingy gives nothingmuch a Kiss 17:19
_Coke_ ingy: I was in the first row at your back to back talks, and was therefore contractually prohibited from making snarky comments. Good talks.
ingy thanks! 17:20
nothingmuch _Coke_: do you have a crush on ingy? I knew all those kisses were dangerous
_Coke_ I am now trying to convince leo to use Test::Base on parrot. he appears to be interested. =-)
nothingmuch: no, I will merely crush ingy.
ingy _Coke_++ 17:21
stevan things nothingmuch has a crush on ingy
nothingmuch ofcourse i do
ingy :)
nothingmuch is dissatisfied with the small amount of girlfriends collected on his tour of Canada
.
stevan nothingmuch: there is still time 17:22
nothingmuch i think ingy will serve as a quality addition
stevan I gave you $$ for the hooker
nothingmuch no there isn't
autrijus refuses to go to where the sun shines
_Coke_ ingy needs to shower more often. or sleep more. or write better slides.
stevan _Coke_: if he showered then he would not have any time to make his slides, and therefore not sleep
it is all tightly coupled
nothingmuch: where did you install SVK from? 17:23
nothingmuch same link as you 17:24
stevan hmmm, it is complaining about my SVN not being compiled with perl bindings
nothingmuch in fact I was about to point you to it, but autrijus was faster
uh, that's odd
i think it ships with svn
oh wait, no 17:25
OSX now ships with svn (woohoo!)
stevan hmmm, maybe i should upgrade to tiger
nothingmuch maybe
it's been nice
but you can also just install svn from the binary pkg
gugod osx ships with svn ?
stevan the $work servers are down, its not like I can do anything today anyway :)
nothingmuch gugod: i didn't install svn, but it's there, so i thought it came in the svk dmg 17:26
but appearantly it didn't
gugod yes, svk dmg comes with svn
nothingmuch which svn is /usr/bin
oh, svk is also there
gugod isn't that a symlink to /usr/local/svk-1.00/bin/svn ?
_Coke_ svn did not ship with tiger.
nothingmuch yes, it is...
stevan ahhhh, I see now
_Coke_ had to install it for tiger, just like he did for panther.
nothingmuch confusion
okay, svn does not ship for tiger 17:27
stevan I have an svn in my /sw/bin
nothingmuch it really *was* svk
_Coke_ there is a precompiled package, however, which is just fine.
(an apple style package, no fink)
nothingmuch _Coke_: the confusion is because i didn't install svn but had it
and I thought that svk provided it, and then thought it didn't provide it, and then realized it did provide it after all 17:28
gugod the svk dmg has everything it needs to run svk
stevan hmmm, now it says "Can't locate SVN/Core.pm in @INC"
nothingmuch plug: search.cpan.org/perldoc?UNIVERSAL::isa
stevan grumbles something about OSS being difficult to install :P 17:29
nothingmuch stevan: uh, is your perl also from /sw?
stevan nope
nothingmuch hm
stevan nothingmuch: I tried to CPAN rate UNIVERSAL::isa, but it broke CPAN ratings
nothingmuch OSS in this case (svk) was very very easy to install
stevan only on 17 in powerbooks I guess :P
nothingmuch stevan: prepend /usr/bin and /usr/local/svk-1.00-2/bin/ to your PATH 17:30
wow, irssix has tab completion of paths
that rocks
kolibrie ran apt-get install svk 17:31
clkao suddenly #perl6 became #svk-install
kolibrie of course, it also then downloaded 16MB of other stuff to upgrade
nothingmuch clkao: you fix it then =)
PerlJam clkao: so ... how long before the perl6 version of svk? ;-)
integral nothing uses perl5:SVK yet? 17:32
clkao it works
and that's why i told autrijus and helped him with perl5 support in pugs
stevan hmmm, SVN::Core is not in /usr/local/svk-1.00/perl/ either 17:36
oh wait 17:37
nevermind I found it
nothingmuch initial Test::TAP::Model::Consolidated is in the darcs repo 17:46
stevan what is that? 17:52
oh the diff-ed stuff
nothingmuch yup
on the model side
i'm hacking diff you in first
summary view later
want to start summary?
stevan hides behind a terminal window so nothingmuch cant see him 17:53
nothingmuch they are transparent on your machine ;-) 17:54
stevan nothingmuch: we shall see, all depends on if the $work servers return
pdcawley asks his weekly 'does &?CALLER_CONTINUATION work yet?' question.
stevan quickly jumps behind an opaque Safari window
nothingmuch pdcawley: i'll prod autrijus when he wakes up, he's napping 17:55
pdcawley wilco.
stevan: You have a recommended starting point for grokking Perl6-MetaModel? 17:56
nothingmuch pdcawley: look in P5::PIL::Run::Container::Foo
stevan pdcawley: lib/Perl6/MetaClass.pm might be a good spot
nothingmuch where Foo is anything
those are smple implementations
stevan pdcawley: and the test suite
no docs, sorry :) 17:57
nothingmuch but not meta ish in any way
pdcawley Ah... don't start with the Perl5 version?
nothingmuch Perl6-MetaModel *is* in perl5
it's a perl5 implementation of what metamodels in perl 6 should be like
pdcawley Ah... sorry, was rooting my subdirectories in the wrong places...
was at pugs/ mentally, not pugs/lib/Perl6-MetaModel 17:58
forgive me.
nothingmuch never
you have insulted my honor
stevan what honor?
nothingmuch err, dignity? 17:59
no wait, all out of that too
stevan I think you lost that the first time you let ingy kiss you
nothingmuch it was well worth it
the smooth texture, melting in my mouth
pdcawley Ingy kissed you?
<flounce>!
ingy i didn't kiss anybody
nothingmuch nono, he just gave me a kiss
ingy right! 18:00
pdcawley And, fact fans, the difference is?
stevan well, before we answer this, is this going in the summary? 18:01
nothingmuch www.conway.com/ssinsider/images/pw030616c.jpg
pdcawley Probably not, we're on IRC.
Limbic_Region pdcawley - you can still link to the IRC conversation in the logs though ;-) 18:02
_Coke_ www.camelshumpalpacafarm.com/photos/smooch.JPG 18:04
hey, is that allison?
nothingmuch yup.... looks exactly like her 18:05
nothingmuch rolls eyes
qmole lol
_Coke_ ok, you name the famous perl chick that it looks most like. =-)
nothingmuch the hair color, the shape of her face, it's all the same
_Coke_ I mean, aside from ingy of course.
nothingmuch uh, ingy
damn!
well, the one on the right side kind of looks like chip 18:06
and that means that since the one on the left is choking him, he will kick her ass with some krav maga any moment now
stevan huh, no mustache
nothingmuch benicialiving.com/images/uploads/camel_kiss.jpg 18:07
uck.. i just needed [==] @list in perl5 18:09
Khisanth List::Util? :) 18:10
kungfuftr [==] @list ?
nothingmuch Khisanth: yes and no
i'm using it
but chaining semantics are the same
kungfuftr: $list[0] == $list[1] == $list[2] ... == $list[n];
stevan the real Chip and Allison (home.sergeant.org/D70/YAPC/Hallway%...rmat=html) 18:11
kungfuftr ah... so a set operation
nothingmuch kungfuftr: no, not really 18:12
circumfix [] takes an operator, and returns a listy operator
that iterates through the list, and applies the operator it got initially on every pair 18:13
with good semantics
sub product (*@numbers) { [*] @numbers }
kungfuftr ah... i see
nothingmuch that's essentially like 'reduce { $a * $b } @numbers'
but if it's boolean chaining operators, then it becomes funkier 18:14
actually i think it's a precircumfix operator 18:16
not a circumfix operator that returns an operator 18:17
svnbot6 r5136, putter++ | Created docs/SEEALSO. Mainly to point to lib/pugs/*.pod. 19:14
dudley Back from the midwife. It's a girl! Myles Phala Flanders, 7lbs, 12 oz. 19:27
rjbs congratulations! 19:32
kolibrie yes, congratulations!
integral congrats! But does she have the commiter bit yet? :-P 19:33
dudley Not yet... but then again, neither do I... ; ) 19:34
autrijus dudley: if you give me two emails... 19:35
I can make both of you commiters :) 19:37
dudley dkf AT misnomer.us, myles AT misnomer.us 19:40
kolibrie I suppose Myles will be our youngest committer 19:41
Darren_Duncan question about YAPC and other conferences ... 19:43
how common is it for people to have computers and/or not have computers with them?
I don't have a portable but intend to go to OSCON 2005 (already paid, too late to refund), and am wondering whether it would be a good idea to borrow or rent a portable to take along 19:44
I welcome advice
rjbs something like 75% of people or better have laptops 19:45
autrijus dudley: welcome aboard!
nothingmuch Darren_Duncan: you can buy one, it's fun
i bought a laptop at YAPC
kolibrie a 17 inch!
nothingmuch (my other laptop died)
autrijus I hope the committer bit makes a good 0th birthday present
nothingmuch =)
Darren_Duncan I'm tight on money so can't buy one 'til next year
nothingmuch os am I ;-) 19:46
(well, now, after buying the laptop)
kolibrie I didn't have one with me, and definitely felt very disconnected
Darren_Duncan it's worse ... I'm borrowing the money to go and don't have a job ... hope to get one after I return
autrijus it's like every talk is actually happening on both the realworld and the IRC as another track 19:47
kolibrie if you borrow one, don't spill coffee on it
autrijus in parallel. so borrowing a laptop is useful
nothingmuch or beer
dudley All right, thanks! It's a hell of a day today... : D
nothingmuch Darren_Duncan: eek.
OSCON is expensive, YAPC isn't
you should have swapped the two... 19:48
pjcj dudley: Congratulations! I'm glad you didn't choose Pugs as a middle name ...
Darren_Duncan I thought OSCON would be cheaper because I don't have to fly ... it's only 1 day's ground travel away from where I live
I recognize that YAPC is cheaper, but thought flying costs would be prohibitive 19:49
kolibrie they can be
Darren_Duncan my total estimated costs for OSCON 2005 is about CDN$2200 : $1700 conference, $350 hotel, $150 travel
that's with early reg plus user group discount, and having 3 or 4 people in the room 19:50
obra $350 for the hotel? Where are you staying?
ah.
Darren_Duncan Red Lion ... that is for 6 nights
same place Peter Scott is staying, and he lives in Victoria where I do
its just across from the conference center I believe 19:51
regardless of computer own/borrow, is it worthwhile to get travelling insurance, or would the laptop be covered by regular home owner insurance? 19:52
putter I'm dusting the wiki a bit... where is there a _rendered_ version of the yapc talk?
nothingmuch pugscode.org/talks/yapc/index.html 19:53
Darren_Duncan separate question ...
putter thanks!
Darren_Duncan I plan to apply to give a Lightning Talk at OSCON ... getting right out there in my first conference
are there videos online of previous Lightning Talks so I can see how other people deliver theirs? 19:54
_Coke_ ... quickly. 19:56
nothingmuch Darren_Duncan: uhm, you don't want to know what our lightning talks were like..
there were ninjas, and juggling
Darren_Duncan I saw pictures and so have an idea
but sound and motion would be helpful too
_Coke_ luke++ 19:57
Darren_Duncan I wanted to do one of the things which Lightning Talks are good for, and put up a quick introduction to my Rosetta/SQL::Routine work plus their Perl 6 versions that exist at the time
nothingmuch hew.ca/cgi-bin/page.pl?Day=Day%203&...rson_name=
PerlJam Darren_Duncan: speak fast, don't go into too much detail, and be dramatic and/or humorous. You'll be fine. 19:58
nothingmuch should be uploaded there soon
Darren_Duncan I thought so ... but it's still nice to see examples ... I don't have any previous conferences to draw experience from
thanks for the url, nothingmuch, will check back when movies up 19:59
this said, I wouldn't mind seeing ones from previous years also
will try more thorough google search than before 20:00
PerlJam Wasn't it autrijus who did a CPAN lightning talk?
pdcawley_ stevan about?
Darren_Duncan he was about 2 hours ago
pdcawley_ Ah... just I've finally got 'round to looking at Perl6-MetaModel 20:01
autrijus PerlJam: yeah autrijus.org/favcpan/ 20:05
PerlJam Darren_Duncan: there you go! Emulate autrijus :-) 20:06
autrijus that was the only time I got a standing ovation :)
Darren_Duncan looking ... 20:07
kolibrie so... where's the soundtrack? 20:08
PerlJam Darren_Duncan: or treat it like a poetry reading
Darren_Duncan: or a song
Darren_Duncan btw, speaking of emulating, I always thought taking a few examples from Steve Jobs talks would be good
I can't sing ... but who knows, the poetry angle might work 20:09
PerlJam A couple of years ago I did a few lightning talks on perl6 for the local CS club. It seems like now would be a good time to do that again (especially now that pugs is here) 20:10
autrijus kolibrie: www.perl.org/tpc/2003/audio/perl-lt/ 20:11
poetry-reading is fine but don't go overboard...
I read the first few pugs poems in my yapc talk
then on the second half I announced I've used my Vogon quota 20:12
so I'll no longer subject the audience to poetry reading
PerlJam an LT on pugs or parrot or PGE or why-everything-starts-with-P would do well today
autrijus some of them look quite relieved
LT?
oh, lightning talk
Darren_Duncan the easiest thing for me to do is just talk ... like with the longer panels but short, sweet, and any questions
I'm not that dramatic ... mainly I just don't want to be boring 20:13
kolibrie autrijus: cool, thanks 20:14
PerlJam Darren_Duncan: well, talk in exaggerated imbic pentameter or something and it won't be boring :)
iambic even
Darren_Duncan thanks for the www.perl.org/tpc/2003/audio/perl-lt/ link ... and I'll lookup other videos around the same place too 20:16
gaal heya. 20:22
Darren_Duncan heya
gaal autrijus, this is a remooser about pugscc :) 20:23
Darren_Duncan I just watched the autrijus rap video ... quite nice but I couldn't understand most of it
gaal something instead of show for TVars is needed
Darren_Duncan now to more videos ...
autrijus gaal: yes, I have this line in my todo:
gaal i asked on #haskell and my mind was bended some.
autrijus pugs: zeroderef prelude pugscc quaname
gaal i can work on the prelude if pugscc is fixed
kungfuftr theorbtwo: moo? 20:24
autrijus goodie. let me take a quick look
gaal though i still haven't really figured out how to get make to enter a new rule at the end of another one
okay: the probelm afaik was that TVars show to "<ref>" which doesn't compile.
(obviously) 20:25
stevan pdcawley: ping 20:26
autrijus gaal: where does <ref> occur? only in envGlobal? 20:27
gaal yes
globC
putter ok, wiki dusted.
gaal wherever there's a TVar, really
Yaakov autrijus: In one of the group photos you are glowing.
autrijus: Somehow, it is appropriate. 20:28
autrijus Yaakov: it's just the LCD backlight :)
Yaakov No, this is three bright stripes.
autrijus that is my scottevest. 20:29
Yaakov But, there is one where everyone but you is looking at the camera, you appear to be programming.
gaal oh, autrijus, envDebug is Just <ref> too.
in some places.
autrijus Yaakov: in fact I was in #perl mumbling about how long the photo taking took, with many rotating cameras 20:30
stevan Yaakov: thats because he was proabbly programing
Yaakov Heh.
I prefer to imagine you were implementing --^~` (Whatever that means in pewrl 6).
Khisanth rotating cameras?! isn't that that the photography equivalent of copy and pasting code? ;)
Yaakov Khisanth: No, it is the equivalent of RAID. 20:31
RAEC.
(Expensive Cameras)
pdcawley_ Not panoramic jobs?
autrijus Yaakov: I prefer to ruthlessly shatter any rumours of my alledged sainthood :)
pdcawley_ NOBLEX etc...
Horizont...
autrijus is actually jsut a Friar 20:32
Yaakov autrijus: There is a fine line between saint and maniac.
It is my impression you crossed it.
autrijus needs to practice more on impressionism 20:33
Yaakov autrijus: In any case, I have no illusions of you as saint. I just appreciate your unique merit.
Odin-LAP You mean there are no manic saints?
autrijus Yaakov: but thanks for your kind words :)
putter autrijus: fyi, I'm not seeing/pinging autrijus.org. packets appear to disappear in a hinet.net router.
autrijus putter: that's an adsl and it looks like it just went down 20:34
putter k
autrijus worst case it'll be up in 36 hours when I'm physically back
gaal what's the topic of the rap lightning talk? 20:35
autrijus gaal: "1% of my favourite cpan"
www.perl.org/tpc/2003/presentations/
gaal i see why you have to talk so fast
(lots of stuff to include) 20:37
brentdax Are all the Perl 6 design documents up somewhere I can grab them? I have a project I need to work on with Pugs when I have limited/no Internet access.
gaal cpan Perl6::Bible
PerlJam brentdax: they are in the svn repository.
stevan brentdax: however, they are not very up to date
so don't believe anything you read :P 20:38
brentdax Heh.
autrijus brentdax: Perl6::Bible is usually good enough.
if it's not uptodate, send patch to pmichaud 20:39
he vowed to review and apply every one of them
Yaakov autrijus: I installed the Haskell compiler on my notebook because of your talk.
gaal shakespeare in the talk, lol 20:40
Yaakov Actually, your talk tipped the balance. A lot of people I respect have mentioned it favorably, you just pushed it over the edge.
autrijus cool :) 20:41
PerlJam pugs was enough to tip the balance for me. I'd played with haskell in the past but never so much as when I saw what autrijus could do with it. 20:42
gaal autrijus: for loading the precompiled prelude: this should be enough for the actual loading, right? 20:43
# runEnv env{ envBody = Pugs.PreludePC.ast, envGlobal = Pugs.PreludePC.glob, envDebug = Nothing }
_Coke_ tries to remember if brentdax was one of the people he needed to bug.
brentdax Bug about what? 20:44
gaal with ast and glob being what -CPugs gave for Prelude.pm
_Coke_ Exactly.
_Coke_ scratches his head.
Perhaps you're just famous. =-)
integral does this compiled prelude require two links?
gaal "i should have listened to what my mother told me"
_Coke_ what did she say?
clkao dear autrijus, do you know if it's possible to set rt.openfoundry's admincc to the list hosted by it
gaal "i don't know, i didn't listsen"
clkao (for svk, of course) 20:45
_Coke_ *bow* we'll be here all week!
PerlJam _Coke_: what's brentdax famous for?
autrijus gaal: yes, I thnk 20:46
gaal: fixed for simple cases (i.e. when user doesn't have 'sub foo {}') 20:48
the crux of the matter is that each sub contains a ref to its subEnv 20:49
but we can't fully serialise env without using some kind of recursion
svnbot6 r5137, autrijus++ | * perl script/pugscc --run -e 'say 1+3' now compiles again
r5137, autrijus++ | (need to test non-TH builds)
gaal is it okay to call withSocketsDo more than once?
# haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/li...hSocketsDo
autrijus I think yes 20:50
gaal sounds like it's okay
autrijus gaal: so I'm not quite sure how to go about fully serializing subEnv
maybe just do the same as with Compile VCode
gaal autrijus, the #haskell folks had some ideas which at some point i thought i almost understood
autrijus recursive mdo?
gaal about serializing STM
autrijus okie. 20:51
gaal is their channel logged?
autrijus yes I think, google around a bit?
(or just ask)
I'm feeling dizzy again... I think I need to nap a bit. see you around dinner time (i.e. <2hr)
_Coke_ pmichaud++
autrijus gaal: but "normal" pugscc should work now 20:52
gaal i'll prolly not be here, but thanks :)
brentdax Not really used to running a computer on a battery.
nothingmuch kungfuftr: ping 21:00
gaal autrijus, for when you backlog: meme.b9.com/~164b38dd44af46a9948210...ate=050701 and vgrep for TVar 21:04
anyway: the prelude looks good with pugscc now. 21:05
nothingmuch does anybody here think they can help Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix with some js? 21:18
pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "when trying to runEnv the result of -CPugs" (18 lines, 781B) at sial.org/pbot/11479
_Coke_ what sort of js? 21:19
nothingmuch _Coke_: sorry, zonked 21:35
Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix is going to support consolidation of several reports 21:36
for every file, if all the versions of the file are the same, then there will be a little [+] sign on the left 21:37
when you click it, it expands, and the [+] is replaced with a [-]
then you can mouse over all of the versions, to see different diags, or whatever
when the versions are different, like for example, test case 6 of file t/foo.t fails on windows, then all versions of that file are automatically expanded
and the background of this cluster is darkened
i need the code to do [+] and [-] 21:38
i was thinking of stealing it from wikipedia's TOC hiding code
but then i found out that I don't like reading HTML code intertwined with JS
so I thought i'll excercise delegation, which is a good pattern
damn, I want roles 21:39
in perl 5
brentdax Is there something Ubuntu (or Debian) might have left out that would stop Perl 5 interop from compiling? 21:52
putter wonders if autrijus could use a vacation... eating well, sleeping half the day, etc. Tweaking clock speed up high. 21:54
obra heh 21:56
stevan nothingmuch: use the CSS display property 21:57
for the [+] and [-] stuff 21:58
cwest Vacations are the killer of progress because you have to recover from them. 22:01
putter :) 22:12
nothingmuch stevan: can you do that stuff? 22:17
Yaakov sets Casey on fire to help him recover.
pdcawley Stevan: How much can I refactor that metamodel? 22:33
'cos there's far too many 'big ole subroutines' with responsibilities in the wrong place.
nothingmuch pdcawley: i'd say as much as you want, but try to comit changes incrementally 22:47
pdcawley Okay. I'm pulling Perl6::MetaModel::class out into a Perl6::ClassBuilder class, that way I can share the 'name' and 'param' and use a template method. 22:48
putter Has anyone used eval('...',:lang<pir>)? 22:53
pasteling "pdcawley" at 217.146.110.1 pasted "Perl6::ClassBuilder for Stevan" (110 lines, 2.9K) at sial.org/pbot/11482 23:25
pdcawley I haven't checked it in 'cos I got carried away refactoring and I've not quite implemented all the methods on Perl6::MetaClass yet.
Plus, it's half past midnight, and my mother always told me never to check anything in after midnight when you've been up since 6. 23:27
clkao 23:28
.!
pjcj pdcawley's mother's maiden name was Lovelace? 23:30
autrijus no, her maiden name was Byron. 23:32
clkao hey autrijus don't ignore my question about openfoundry :p
autrijus clkao: I didn't see them. what questions? 23:33
clkao 04:44 < clkao> dear autrijus, do you know if it's possible to set rt.openfoundry's admincc to the list hosted
by it
autrijus clkao: sure, it's possible. 23:34
you can do that by adding a new user using the list address and then add the user as the proj admin 23:35
quite roundabout
but will work
otherwise I can just change the setting for you
would you like that? 23:36
(or, even more simpler -- just change your own email addr into the svk list addr) 23:37
autrijus goes upstairs in search of dinner
clkao ?!? 23:38
obra so you can get your password reminders sent to svk-dev 23:41
autrijus that would be very cool indeed.
(not.)
clkao: so you want me to just new a nonpriviledged user svk-dev and add it to admincc? 23:42
clkao ya, please 23:43
and i'm not in a mood that appreciate bad humours
autrijus very well. done. 23:44
you can tell that I'm sleepy when I start spewing very bad humours 23:45
sadly in the past 24 hours I'm constantly sleepy.
clkao flying home 23:46
?
Limbic_Region autrijus - long flight home - perhaps you unplug and just sleep?
autrijus that sounds nice. need food too 23:47
clkao: yeah
Limbic_Region not that you need any advice from me - but figuring out a way to shut your brain down first is the key to the sleep being refreshing 23:50
autrijus I'd like to learn that 23:58
;)

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