Ingy Needs Your Help => apocalypse.kwiki.org | Pugs 6.2.8 released! | pugscode.org |pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | www.geeksunite.net
Set by ingy on 2 August 2005.
cybercobra absolute last one - zip (|). does it work like zip() in functional langs? 00:00
buu Hrm. Is there any cool new way to play with indexing in to function returns? 00:01
putter no problem. I'm doing binary search on program composition with a several minute cycle time. sigh. hmm, zip... dont remember, checking...
Darren_Duncan the tutorial is now just ended 00:02
seen ingy
jabbot Darren_Duncan: ingy was seen 19 minutes 41 seconds ago
putter err, zip yes, but what is "(|)" ? 00:04
cybercobra putter: the ()s aren't part of the operator
i was using the parens to indicate the alternate name for the zip op 00:05
iblech cybercobra: Alternate names for zip are Y and ¥, not |, IIRC 00:06
dudley I thought it was ¥
iblech | is short for any()
cybercobra iblech: hmm, I guess the periodic table of operators I have is outdated
ingy Darren_Duncan: ping
buu Is there any clever perl6 way to turn foo.bar.baz in to foo.bar and .baz ? 00:07
ingy stevan: ping
sili buu: with?
dudley An updated periodic table would be pretty cool.
buu sili: Begone.
sili with foozle { 00:08
cybercobra putter: but the zip op does work like I thought, correct?
buu sili: I think you just bang out random unicode operators and one of them will work.
sili sounds like p6 00:10
buu Yeah.
putter zip ( 11,21,31 ; 12,22,32; 31,32,33) it's in S29draft.pod. I don't know if the usual "what happens if one list is shorter" has been resolved.
buu I understand perl7 will be nick named APL
sili i hear perl8 looks like php
putter oops, zip ( 11,21,31 ; 21,22,23; 31,32,33) 00:11
bah. yes, the usual. :)
cybercobra putter: thanks a ton. 00:12
putter ah. it takes an optional :shortest to do truncation rather than undef padding.
np. :) 00:13
Darren_Duncan ingy ping 00:16
Damian just left after I spoke to him;
I'm in the big room
I also got a description of what you look like from Damian
I'm currently wearing a white iMac shirt and blue jeans, have glasses, and am 6ft tall, no decorations; my backpack has some orange shiny flagging tape on it, and I have an IBook 00:17
putter Sigh. Just how bad is not saying is primitive for a function in the Prelude? In the presence of is primitive , the string-flavored macro called by Parser just doesnt work.
Darren_Duncan big room meaning where evening events are 00:18
iblech putter: (Might be wrong what I say) is primitive causes the sub to not have an own entry in the callstack, i.e. a return will return from the sub executing the primitive instead of the primitive itself 00:19
putter wonders how long before people get more outlandish to improve visibility... I have the red left sleeve, green right, and checkerboard vest...
iblech putter: So I think it's ok to omit the is primitive
dudley putter: I used to have a shirt like that... 00:20
putter iblech: my thanks.
iblech putter: np. :) 00:21
Darren_Duncan if anyone is at OSCON, I have held a seat for the main tuesday event in the front row in front of the podium, right of the aisle 00:25
come 'n meet
temp signoff to save power now 00:26
svnbot6 r6011 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: Fix lexical stomping in some rare cases (&statement_control:<for> was
r6011 | iblech++ | affected, though...). "But I thought you've already fixed that some revs ago,
r6011 | iblech++ | by backuping lexical vars on subentry and restoring them on subexit, in the
r6011 | iblech++ | &return()-handler?" -- Yes. But the native JavaScript return() was still called
r6011 | iblech++ | in two places, causing the &return()-handler to not be executed causing the
r6011 | iblech++ | restoring of vars not happen causing many infinite loops when running the
r6011 | iblech++ | testsuite. Fixed. 00:27
ingy grrr 00:55
I think my irssi logging is busted 00:56
can someone email me the interview in the scrollby from earlier?
[email@hidden.address]
thanks
iblech ingy: colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 00:57
ingy rock 00:59
iblech++
iblech m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/not_p...smoke.html # New jssmoke, uploading the individual tests in ~~5min 01:03
(4514 test cases: 2764 ok, 1750 failed, 471 todo, 2 skipped and 55 unexpectedly succeeded, 61.23% ok)
putter iblech: re smoke, I think there's a p6 version of splice in the PIR prelude. 01:39
iblech putter: ooh! Looking... 01:40
Darren_Duncan back online ... in the front of the main room, anyone can stop by and visit
big talks in 1 hour
iblech putter: Great! I'll add this to Prelude::JS::Array and see if it passes the tests :) 01:41
putter :) Which may be the first time it's ever been run... ;) (my fuzzy recollection is that at the time it was written distinct(?) pir and pugs bugs prevented it being run anywhere) 01:43
iblech Unfortunately, it seems to infinite loop before the first test result of splice.t is printed 01:56
putter bah. I'll take a look at it. I think the pugsbugs which stopped it from running have long been fixed. 01:57
iblech Great, thanks :) 01:58
svnbot6 r6012 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: Copied Prelude::PIR's &splice to Prelude::JS::Array and fixed a Perl 02:00
r6012 | iblech++ | 5-ism ($array[$idx] instead of @array[$idx]). Doesn't work yet, though.
r6012 | iblech++ | * 19 testfiles: unEVALs or eval -> try. Some tests pass now, because of the
r6012 | iblech++ | lexicals-in-eval thing. I went through all subdirs of t/, with the exception
r6012 | iblech++ | of pugsbugs/ and unspecced/, will probably look into them tomorrow.
iblech Ok, need to sleep now 02:01
Night all :)
cybercobra is there going to be a libpcre for perl6? or is libpcre unofficial? 02:37
putter iblech: PIR.hs splice now passes splice.t with 2 failures due to want.List being :todo<feature>. 02:59
svnbot6 r6013 | putter++ | src/perl6/Prelude/PIR.pm: splice bugfixes. iblech++
stevan ingy: pingy 03:27
ingy: I am not sure why the movie is not working, I can reproduce the issue here when i download it 03:30
however the original plays fine locally
I am going to try and zip it and see if that fixes the issue
ingy: the movie is now zipped on the server 03:38
and downloading it is successfull
it is kind of rough, I dont have any really good movie editing software 03:39
if you want to remake the animation part, let me know, i will send you the images, and the audio portion as well
dudley stevan: It works for me. Good stuff :-) 03:45
stevan++
I'm just glad my wife didn't hear me laughing at it, she would have mocked me mercilessly for rampant geekitude. 03:47
;-)
stevan dudley: even worse, my wife heard me making it :) 03:49
dudley heh 03:50
If you had to recommend one book on objects/metaobjects, which would it be? I was considering The Art of the Metaobject Protocol 03:52
bbiab 03:54
stevan dudley: yes, that is the best one so far
in fact, it is pretty much the only one i have found
There is another book "Putting MetaClasses to Work" 03:55
but it is not as good as The Art of MOP
besides Scheme is sooooo much prettier than C++ :)
dudley That's not saying much :) 04:06
svnbot6 r6014 | Stevan++ | adding The Art of the MetaObject Protocol to the list
r6015 | putter++ | src/Pugs/Parser.hs: reverted to r6012. Some experimental changes were unintentionally included in r6013. Sorry.
stevan iblech++ # PIL2JS is unstoppable 04:08
iblech: you will need to add details about PIL2JS in the changelog, as I am not sure how much to include
gaal: ping (how much "complete" is PugsBuild?) 04:10
dudley Goodnight, everybody 04:13
sleep &
stevan nite dudley
putter: please add your Rule work to the Changelog, I am not sure I understand whats going on there :) 04:30
svnbot6 r6016 | Stevan++ | 6.2.9 changelog ... surely some stuff is missing; autrijus, iblech, gaal and putter please review 04:47
r6017 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - Method, PrivateMethod and SubMethod are now implemented as closures; not 100% sure where this is going yet, but it is a start 04:57
putter stevan: nothing worth mentioning. 04:58
(re Changelog)
stevan putter: okay, thanks :) 04:59
putter stevan: actually... ok, PGE's :words (aka :w) got exposed. but there are no tests, and while it seemed to work, there also seemed to be some bugs. on the other hand, it's something folks have expressed interest in having in the past. so... whatever you think. 05:04
on the gripping hand, you probably have to be using parrot HEAD for it to work. so lets punt until next release, when the parrot/PGE situation is cleaner, and further stuff has been done. 05:05
stevan ok 05:06
Aankhen`` Morning. 05:07
stevan hola Aankhen``
Aankhen`` stevan :-)
Aankhen`` wonders how to unbreak his SVK.
Aankhen`` is probably going to end up installing MingW again just to build XML::Xerces... :-\ 05:08
(which is required for SWIG, which is required for building the Perl bindings for Subversion, which is required for SVK)
putter ^.^ 05:18
maze of twisty little passages... 05:19
gaal stevan: pong 05:27
good morning
PugsBuild is not complete in the sense that many things should be assimilated into it 05:28
that is, lots of options that were now added ad-hoc to the place that needs them as env vars need to be put there.
also, eventually it can be nice to have a Configure script that lets a user create their config.yml (or edit one) 05:29
stevan gaal: cool
gaal as for correctness: there are still a few rough edges
for example: make ; make rebuilgs pugs
twice
because precompilation isn't smart enough to detect when something's changed or not 05:30
stevan ok, please clarify the changelog then when you have a second
gaal that may sound not very bad, but consider how often you legitimately want to do make and then some time afterwards make smoke
also also, the centralized switch of PUGS_BUILD_OPTS doesn't have a rational way of handling array data, for example precompiled_modules 05:31
but it needs to - that's the point.
OK
stevan 05:34
Aankhen`` Heh.
Connection lost!
gaal feather needs another alias
there.is.no etc.
Aankhen``, huh? 05:36
Aankhen`` stevan has disappeared. :-P 05:37
gaal ah. he must not like build stuff very much :)
stevan sorry, i am here
Aankhen`` I wonder why... I thought EVERYONE finds that stuff fascinating. ;-)
stevan just metamodel-ing
gaal hey, Stevan, the line about $CALLER::_ is probably a bugfix, no? 05:38
stevan gaal: to be honest, I have no idea
it seemed like a feature :)
gaal btw, the movie is unplayable for me too
oh crap, i gotta vamoose to $work 05:39
stevan gaal: did you download the zip?
gaal yes
stevan odd
I need to install iMovie or something
svnbot6 r6018 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel -
r6018 | Stevan++ | * Perl6::Class now just creates Class objects, no more dispatch handling
r6018 | Stevan++ | * Perl6::Instance now handles dispatching, and is where most of the p5 suger is
r6018 | Stevan++ | * removed all "type" checking in attributes, this is not the responsbility of the metamodel
Aankhen`` stevan++ # Metamodels :-)
gaal see y'all later folks &
Aankhen`` See ya gaal. 05:40
svnbot6 r6019 | gaal++ | add info about PugsBuild 05:46
r6020 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - 06:15
r6020 | Stevan++ | * removed ->meta calls on the meta class, we now bootstrap the meta-meta
r6020 | Stevan++ | class when it is created
r6020 | Stevan++ | * all metaclass access is now through ::meta() global function
putter Good night. & 06:17
ingy stevan: url? 06:54
pdcawley What does PIL stand for? 06:56
QtPlatypus Pugs Intermeadate Langage. 06:57
pdcawley Ta.
castaway_ lends QtPlatypus a 'u'
QtPlatypus Thank u 07:02
Aankhen`` lends castaway_ an ewe. 07:04
castaway_ ta ,) 07:05
07:06 castaway_ is now known as castaway
nothingmuch morning 08:01
szabgab ha 08:02
nothingmuch: I will have this lightning talk tomorrow 08:03
it seems they don't have enough people so they gave me 10 minutes
nothingmuch eh?
szabgab do you know the Hebrew name of Pugs ?
I am talking about AP4 08:04
nothingmuch פאגס? 08:06
i know you are, but i thought like "i will have this lightnning talk tomorrow"... as opposed to next week? 08:07
08:13 nnunley2 is now known as nnunley
nothingmuch goes to stage template toolkit and class dbi in the crud arena 08:17
cdbi is bringing weird lookup tables into the ring
brentdax Does anyone know if we'll see 6.2.9 tomorrow? 08:32
szabgab nothingmuch: next week is a regular pm meeting, tomorrow is AP4 08:42
nothingmuch i know =)
szabgab on the regular pm I talk regular stuff
on ap4 I talk light
I need to prepare the talk now 08:44
nothingmuch have fun 08:45
dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { .[0]+.[1].+.[2] } 09:00
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { $_.[0]+$_.[1]+$_.[2] } 09:01
evalbot6 6
dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { .[0]+.[1]+.[2] }
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
dada that's wrong
pdcawley_ By gum it is too. 09:02
dada pdcawley_: huh?
pdcawley_ ?eval given((1)) { .length }
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&length" 09:03
pdcawley_ Wrong.
dada less wrong, however
?eval given("hello") { .length }
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&length"
pdcawley_ ?eval given({foo => 'bar'}) { .{foo} }
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
dada ?eval given("hello") { $_.length }
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&length"
pdcawley_ Looks like it's the brackets... 09:04
dada ?eval given("hello") { $_.chars }
evalbot6 5
dada ?eval given("hello") { .chars }
evalbot6 5
pdcawley_ ?eval given(-> {'foo'}) {.()}
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
dada brackets and square ones, as in my previous example
pdcawley_ ?eval given(->{'foo'}) { $_.() }
evalbot6 'foo'
pdcawley_ And parentheses. 09:05
dada ?eval given([1,2,3]) { .[0] }
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
dada damn
pdcawley_ That's a grammar thing.
it's not looking at the value of $_, it's just misparsing before it gets to that.
pdcawley_ would write a test, but has a summary to write. And I've finished my cup of tea so I'd better get on. 09:06
dada goes testwriting
nothingmuch templates are either not primitive enough, or too primitive 09:08
nothingmuch wants a templating module with higher order functions
where each function is really a template block
dada that's hot 09:09
(higher order template, that is :-)
nothingmuch because if there is one functional concept that templating should benefit from is combinators
for example a table combinator
that takes a templater that templates cells
and tabular structure 09:10
and then applies the cell template to the elements of the table
nothingmuch wonders if there is a templating library in haskell
Aankhen`` Care to explain what a combinator is? 09:12
pdcawley_ A function that takes functions as an argument and returns a new function? 09:13
def apply(&f, &g) { sub { &g(&f(*@_)) } } # For instance 09:14
nothingmuch Aankhen``: think map is an example of one
in this case we're taking an input
and a function 09:15
and we are creating an output that is constructed by applying the function to the input
the function cares about the nested elements
the combinator cares about the structure
Aankhen`` Hrm. 09:16
I see.
Wow, I actually do see.
Aankhen`` faints.
pdcawley_ Heh. Have you read Higher Order Perl yet?
nothingmuch nope
Aankhen`` Me?
pdcawley_ grins at nothingmuch, you probably don't need to.
Aankhen`` No, I haven't.
nothingmuch how come? 09:17
i don't really know my stuff =)
pdcawley_ You should. Good stuff in there on programming perl in a functional style.
nothingmuch i have other monatary priorities at the moment though =)
Aankhen`` Will do.
nothingmuch anyway, @work is being taken out to lunch
ciao!
Aankhen`` (I am assuming you are still talking to me)
pdcawley_ Still lots of value in there even if you do know about higher order functions.
Aankhen: Yes. 09:18
Right, off to finish the summary.
Aankhen`` See ya.
pdcawley Is Thomas Sandlaß in here? 10:03
svnbot6 r6021 | autrijus++ | * .assuming() should support the new pair-first binding semantics too. 10:15
r6022 | autrijus++ | * fix random typo in dollar_underscore.t
pdcawley notes that every time he writes the summary he finds himself wanting to shout at TSa... 10:16
GeJ for thread hijacking? isn't this punishable by law? 10:17
that should be.
pdcawley Has anything he's ever said ever cast light on *anything*? 10:18
His ability to ignore the wider question in favour of nitpicking the particular example chosen to illustrate it is quite staggering.
And it's not just me he's done it to.
This channel is logged and googlable isn't it? 10:34
svnbot6 r6023 | autrijus++ | * run-smoke.pl assumed everyone was iblech... that's not the case :)
pdcawley Ah well, I stand by it, even if I wouldn't say it in a summary. 10:35
autrijus :)
pdcawley has come damned close on occasion.
autrijus however, if not for TSa, the warnock rate on p6[lc] will likely double 10:36
pdcawley giggles.
<warnocked post>, <Thomas says something>, <No thomas, you're wrong and here's why> And yay, the thread is unwarnocked. 10:37
autrijus yup.
pdcawley I shall try to look at it that way from now on.
Thank you for your insight.
autrijus no prob :)
autrijus is relenging finally
how many hours do we have till ingy's talk?
pdcawley relenging? 10:38
autrijus release engineering
pdcawley Ah.
So, how much of his talk do you plan to have outdated by the time he gives it?
autrijus I don't know, all of it maybe? 10:40
pdcawley Yay!
autrijus "Seeing that CMU Common Lisp's compiler is called Python, we decide to rename Pugs to Python too"
"Unification through renaming" 10:41
pdcawley Yay! 10:42
BTW, have you seen the thing I just posted suggesting 'bundle' types?
As a way round the Any|Junction thing. 10:43
autrijus I think the consensus shifted for Any to include Junction now. 10:46
pdcawley But now Array.isa(Single) right?
Which seems odd in its own way. 10:47
autrijus although, Array is not a value type
you can't have a value of the type Array. 10:48
pdcawley blinks.
autrijus the basic idea is that the parameter is composed of a container type and a value type
container type is currently $ @ %
pdcawley And a Junction's a value type?
autrijus I propose & is unified to $
yes. 10:49
a value is either an intrinsic, or an object
it's all in svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/src/PIL.hs
quite formalized; I'll write up a detailed treatment after the release 10:50
pdcawley I'm failing to see how a junction can be a value type, but an array isn't.
autrijus okay. a scalar container can hold a junction.
pdcawley Can't I write: sub foo (Array $ary) {...}
Or isn't that quite the same thing.
autrijus why, yes, but that means something else
it means "Scalar of Ref of Array"
just shorthanded
pdcawley But a Junction isn't a reference type in the same way... okay... 10:51
autrijus yup.
you can have "Scalar of Junction".
no need to say Ref of.
in fact, Ref only points to containers.
sometimes constant containers
as in "is constant"
pdcawley Because it needs to do scary implicit things that it can't do when it's isolated behind a reference?
autrijus but containers nevertheless.
no, just because there's no junctive container. 10:52
there are only three container types in perl6 and that's fixed.
pdcawley So I can't take a reference to a junction, I take a reference to a scalar that *contains* a junction.
autrijus yup.
and it may be a constant nonrebindable scalar container
so it's almost as good as a value
but still not quite -- it's always passed by ref
instead of values, where you copy the value. 10:53
pdcawley Can I subtype, say Array, and then say that a particular @array uses my subclass as its container?
autrijus that amounts to tying
and yes.
so container types must belong two one of the three fundamental interfaces
if it conforms to neither, it's not making any sense.
pdcawley For instance, adding something like the Smalltalk collection hierarchy and using them in @ary things.
autrijus s/two one/to one/
that is fine, but you are then acting on the container level 10:54
not the value level
pdcawley Gotcha. And good.
autrijus so even if you undef @ary, that tie remains
yeah, it's all very clean. putter++ iblech++ for forcing this rethink
pdcawley And anything I put in @ary gets put in my collection.
autrijus yup.
pdcawley Until I either untie, or retie.
autrijus oh. a constant immutable container is different from a value in one very real way
that is it has a =:= 10:55
i.e. unique identity
pdcawley Useful for hashing, for instance.
autrijus it never makes sense to test =:= on values.
or bind them.
S03 makes it quite clear that =:= is operating on the container level.
anyway, I'm currently formulating Pair as having the "key" side as a value the "val" side as a container. 10:56
it is consistent with the S* usage
pdcawley So, for instance, a Pair doesn't have an id, but the box it's in does.
autrijus yes.
pdcawley Doesn't this have problems when the box is a Ref? 10:57
autrijus npe
pdcawley Because by the sound of it a Ref is a value type, but it seems to make a good deal of sense that it should implement =:=
autrijus a container of id #123 contains a value of the Ref type
if you want to do =:= on that ref, you deref it.
${$ref} =:= ...
if you don't then it's testing the outer box. 10:58
(all this is consistent with perl5.)
pdcawley So, we have Scalar<isa Container> -> Ref<isa Value> -> Pair<isa Value>
Or am I missing something?
autrijus only =:= in perl5 is spelled as overload::AddrRef 10:59
data Container = Scalar (Cell Scalar) -- Scalar container
a Cell is either Constant or Mutable
pdcawley Should that really be Scalar<isa Container> -> Ref<isa Value> -> AnonScalar<isa Container> -> Pair<isa Value>
autrijus pdcawley: right, the last formulation is correct. 11:00
the Anon part doesn't matter
Scalar doesn't know if they are anon or not
they are always anon, in a sense
pdcawley Well, no, just for my bookkeeping.
autrijus the pad binds them to names
ah. good. ok
and a Value is either intrinsic (ref) or object (Ref)
but either way they are not containers.
pdcawley Which reminds me, are we going to have Symbol as a first class type in Perl?
autrijus you mean lispish symbols? 11:01
pdcawley Yeah.
autrijus perl has first-class types
which is symbols in two levels
one is the
::SymName
level
pdcawley I meant, is a namespace going to be analogous to a hash of strings, or a hash of symbols?
autrijus one is
:(Any $foo) level 11:02
newtype Pad = MkPad (Map Sym Container)
(a Pad is a map from sym to container)
data Sym = MkSym { sigil :: Char , twigil :: Maybe Char , name :: Name }
(a symbol is a type that has sigil, twigil, name parts)
newtype Name = MkName { unName :: String }
(a name is a tagged string.)
pdcawley And symbols are unique? 11:03
autrijus they are immutable.
hence, unique, in a sense.
pdcawley So one could potentially write String.intern returns Symbol
autrijus one could. but I don't know if this is exposed to the language.
the runtime is certainly required to support them
pdcawley And have it return the existing Symbol for that string if it already existed.
autrijus but I don't know how to expose them.
i.e. it never came up. so p6l it :)
(it's trivial to expose them from an implementation pov) 11:04
pdcawley It's just that in Ruby there's a good deal of slinging of symbols about the place and it's quite useful. (Not hurt by the fact that they have a handy symbol quoting operator)
pdcawley grins, the fun begins if you start mucking about with '$foo with spaces'.intern :) 11:05
Perl5 symbol tables are *such* fun.
autrijus perl usually use constant strings as symbols.
I'm not opposed to that, really.
pdcawley It's just that, if you're slinging symbols around, your equality checks get much cheaper... 11:06
(if they're unique symbols that is)
autrijus well, a good compiler should turn all constant string comparison into integer checks.
in fact, I think PIR does that.
i.e. it hoists constant strings into the constant segmant
*segment
pdcawley Yeah, but being able to do "string".intern and get a flyweight for slinging around has its virtues even at a language level. 11:07
autrijus I don't dispute that :) 11:08
pdcawley I'll kick something up to p6l later. Need to write the summary.
autrijus <- wrote enough scheme to appreciate this
pdcawley I've written very little scheme, but it appeals to me as a language.
The cunning stuff that gets done with symbol properties for instance is both delightful and evil.
pdcawley grins. Plus, if it's an exposed class, we can extend it. 11:10
If symbol tables are exposed as using strings, that's less useful/more painful. 11:11
autrijus they can't be less useful 11:15
since it can do strictly more things
but it could be argued that it's more painful 11:16
dada ?eval 1 if 'a' ~~ /a/;
evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
pdcawley Actually, they can be less useful, because the variety of things you can do with strings gets in the way of using them effectively as symbols.
autrijus right but that's still a cognitive overload thing 11:17
to the type system they are essentially heavily constrained showable stuff.
dada no rules yes?
autrijus (and comparable and ordered)
dada: not in evalbot
dada mmm
autrijus dada: some kind of parrot problems
pdcawley Are symbols necessarily ordered?
dada I've downloaded the binary build of pugs, and no rules there too
pdcawley Because the rules are handled in Parrot. 11:18
I think.
dada but there is a parrot.exe in the distribution
what I get is:
*** Cannot parse PGE: a
autrijus pdcawley: they are ordered by their hashes
dada *** Error: invalid argument
autrijus or addresses
at least
pdcawley What if you do /a/ ~~ 'a'? 11:19
autrijus but yeah, "hashable" is probably a better term
dada: you have parrot 0.2.2-release?
and pugs 6.2.8-release?
dada autrijus: no error, but no match either
autrijus dada: hm. 11:20
dada autrijus: no, I got the nightly build binaries
autrijus parrot nightly is known to be unsupported by pugs
we can only target releases
esp. with the huge refactoring going on right now in both sides
dada ok; so is svn pugs known to be working with parrot 0.2.2-release? 11:21
autrijus yes I think so
dada sighs 11:23
autrijus ?eval 'a' ~~ m:P5/a/
evalbot6 MkMatch {matchOk = True, matchFrom = 0, matchTo = 1, matchStr = "a", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = {}}
dada still has ghc 6.2.2 :-(
autrijus ?eval m:P5/a/ ~~ 'a' 11:24
evalbot6 MkMatch {matchOk = True, matchFrom = 0, matchTo = 1, matchStr = "a", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = {}}
autrijus dada: hm, you can't install 6.4?
dada autrijus: downloading it now
autrijus oh ok. there's also 6.4.1-tobe builds as haskell.org/ghc/dist/stable/dist/gh...w32.tar.gz 11:25
no function changes, just some speedups and less "impossible" bugs
dada autrijus: I can only target releases :-)
autrijus lol.
note that neither parrot nor pugs has a "-stable" branch :)
dada so, while I take the time to configure my system to be able to do some testing, I have a bug for you: 11:27
?eval given('hello') { .chars } 11:28
evalbot6 5
dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { .length }
evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&length"
dada oops
?eval given((1,2,3)) { .elems }
evalbot6 3
dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { .[0] }
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
pdcawley Did you write the tests yet?
dada pdcawley: still downloading the latest ghc to build the latest pugs :-) 11:29
pdcawley Not got a feather account?
dada nope
autrijus dada: nod, prefix .[] is known to be missing. grep for a test or write a new one as :todo<feature>
pdcawley ?eval given({foo => 'bar'}) { .{'foo'} }
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
autrijus it's a parser thing
pdcawley and .() fails too. 11:30
dada autrijus: yes, I meant to show the bug in the parser
?eval given((1,2,3)) { $_.[0] }
evalbot6 \1
autrijus nod
tests welcome
dada they're coming
...slowly 11:31
autrijus brb
pdcawley seen brentdax? 11:32
jabbot pdcawley: brentdax was seen 3 hours 49 seconds ago
pdcawley Brent, if you're there, I've forgotten whether you prefer to go by Brent Dax or Brent Royal-Gordon in the summaries. 11:33
dada pdcawley: can you tell me more about these feather accounts? :-) 11:41
coral "This week's summary by Brent 'Dax' Royal-Gordo" 11:42
from google
pdcawley Don't ask me, ask Juerd.
google feather.perl6.nl for pointers.
I'm damned if I'm typing the whole lot out :) 11:43
re Brent's handle.
Maybe I should promote him to the ranks of the mononyms.
coral in 2002 he was just Brent Dax
dada seen Juerd? 11:44
jabbot dada: Juerd was seen 4 days 13 hours 34 minutes 19 seconds ago
pdcawley grins, 'Brent Royal-Gordon née Dax' is probably laying it on a bit thick.
coral heh 11:45
perfect
pdcawley That should be (née Dax) shouldn't it? 11:46
pdcawley wishes he could see Brent's face when he scrolls back though the log.
rafl Is 6.2.9 already released? 11:53
coral by topic, no? 11:56
rafl only looked at the changelog. 11:57
castaway dada: [email@hidden.address] :) 11:58
Send name, email address and say "make me a feature account please"
umm, "feather" 11:59
dudley dada: But I think Juerd was going on vacation for a while
iblech putter++ # Implemented &splice in Perl 6, passes tests! Thanks very much :) 12:04
svnbot6 r6024 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: Prelude::JS::Array: Copied putter++'s &splice from Prelude::PIR -- 12:19
r6024 | iblech++ | passes tests, thanks :)
r6024 | iblech++ | * util/yaml_harness.pl, util/run-smoke.pl: Made it completely work again,
r6024 | iblech++ | normal smoke tests ext/ again, jssmoke does not.
r6024 | iblech++ | * Makefile.PL: Added jssmoke target.
12:32 xinming1983 is now known as xinming
Limbic_Region seen autrijus 12:36
jabbot Limbic_Region: autrijus was seen 1 hours 5 minutes ago
Limbic_Region autrijus ping
autrijus - I assume you will backlog. Please read use.perl.org/~Limbic%20Region/journal/26062 and tell me if there is anything you want to change or if you would rather I delete the entry all together. I forgot to ask the obvious question - if someone is interested in funding, what should they do? 12:39
pdcawley autrijus: Just a thought, under what you were saying about container types, @foo := $foo is illegal right? 12:52
pdcawley reads to the end of the thread and attempts to unask the question. 12:58
szabgab beginners help, how do you translate this P5 regex: /^P.*/ ? 13:03
Limbic_Region szabgab - you don't have to if you don't want to
szabgab but I would like to :-)
Limbic_Region p5 regexen still work 13:04
pdcawley No translation needed.
szabgab I am preparing a talk on the ^P.* languages
Limbic_Region oh - well, if you really want to make a rule there are plenty of examples
pdcawley just do /^P.*/, it's a perfectly legal Perl 6 rule.
szabgab and want to tell the crowd to find nothingmuch (and maybe gaal if he also comes)
Limbic_Region right s/a rule/a named rule/ 13:05
szabgab ok, I can live with the old school, but actually I already have that on my first slide
on the last one I'd rather put something else 13:06
svnbot6 r6025 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: 13:10
r6025 | iblech++ | * try { die "hi" }; say $! outputs "hi" now, not "hi at foo.p6...".
r6025 | iblech++ | * die/warn without parameters output the standard message now.
r6025 | iblech++ | try { die $some_object }; # $some_object is still an object now, not some
r6025 | iblech++ | stringification. die.t passes 4/4 now. :)
szabgab The slides are at www.szabgab.com/talks/p_on_ap4.pdf and www.szabgab.com/talks/p_on_ap4.sxi if anyone has a few minutes to waste from his life 13:11
autrijus Limbic_Region: obviously, that someone should mail me :) 13:14
or /msg me 13:15
or talk to me here in #perl6.
Limbic_Region: annotate " the way TPF grants currently work " with ", namely having fixed delivery goals and timelines 13:16
'cuz there's nothing specific about TPF here :) 13:17
pdcawley: yes, it's completely illegal. 13:18
$foo := @foo; # this works, rather inconsistently, as ($foo := \@foo)
but that's due to a larry ruling more than anything else.
pdcawley ISTM that the tricky bit's going to be doing @array := @array[<whatever the slice syntax is this week>] 13:19
autrijus that is not a problem; note that array containers contains scalar containers, not values 13:20
pdcawley Oh yeah.
So your bound array will be an array of the containers found by the slice.
autrijus yes.
that's why it's called arrays, instead not lists (which contains values not containers.) 13:21
s/which contains/which has/
pdcawley Ever since I started to grok list, I've always thought that 'list' implies 'linked list of pairs' 13:22
s:first/list/lisp/
autrijus indeed. but in perl6 they really mean "tuple".
n-tuple, that is
but each element in the tuple may also be a generator, further complicating the issue.
it's a mess :) 13:23
pdcawley Yeah... making streams be transparent is... um...
autrijus (but at least a understandable mess)
pdcawley grins, so long as it's an implementable mess.
Oh yes, it's been a while since I asked, but does &?CALLER_CONTINUATION return a full continuation yet? 13:24
autrijus yeah, you end up with the real list values accessible only via .spec
sure oit is :)
sorry, lagged
$?CALLER_CONTINUATION will return a full cont in the new runcore. 13:25
pdcawley Which will be along when it's along.
autrijus that is, at least a couple weeks away before you can write it profitably.
yes.
integral until then t/unspeced/cont.t shows some things are working though
pdcawley And: Hurrah!
autrijus although this time it's a second-system, which means it'll be much more robust :)
autrijus shudders to think about the horribly VList and ClassTree hacks in the old runcore. 13:26
pdcawley It's not a second system, you've just thrown the spike away.
autrijus true. 13:27
svnbot6 r6026 | fglock++ | * Spans of Recurrences now iterate correctly in Set::Infinite
autrijus replacing it with a larger spike.
pdcawley At least you can carry over the tests :) 13:28
Better than your average spike.
scook0 isn't Pugs just one big spike? :-) 13:29
autrijus yup :)
scook0 for the second-system that is P6
autrijus p6 is third system already 13:30
pdcawley Okay, so the first runcore was a subspike.
autrijus it's spikes all the way down. 13:31
pdcawley Nah, I don't think we need to throw Perl 5 away.
Actually, if it's a spike on a spike it's a superspike isn't it?
autrijus Warte nur, balde ruhest du auch :) 13:32
pdcawley wossat? 13:33
autrijus (translation: things will be thrown away when it's time, including p5 and p6)
scook0 autrijus: about the semantics of Cell/Box:
stevan morning all
QtPlatypus I'm unsure if p5 will go away, Its possable that p5 and p6 have diffrent niches. 13:34
autrijus it's a Goethe poem; "Wandrers Nachtlied II" or something
scook0 does replacing the Box in a mutable cell constitute binding, or assignment? or something else?
(this is what I was trying to ask yesterday)
autrijus scook0: yes, that is exactly what binding means.
stevan ingy: ping 13:35
autrijus assignment is changing the boxVal
(if not tied)
but preserving the boxId.
stevan: I can't see your movie either 13:36
stevan ahhh
autrijus even with the new QuickTime-win32
stevan dudley could see it
scook0 does this mean that each symbol (in the Pad) has its own unique Container/Cell?
stevan dudley: ping
dudley stevan: pong
scook0 (i.e. they're not shared between symbols) 13:37
autrijus scook0: yes, that's exactly it.
stevan dudley: what OS were you on? when you could see the movie
autrijus but otoh, neither of them is mutable anyway. the mutable bit is the box and tiedness.
dudley MacOS 10.4.2
autrijus so "not shared" and "shared" means little
stevan ah... ok I think that is what Ingy is on, so hopefully it will work for him
dudley: thanks
dudley np
autrijus but I want to see the movie :)
pdcawley Well, unless they're bound... 13:38
stevan autrijus: I will see what I can do :)
stevan didnt really want to $work anyway ;)
autrijus pdcawley: bound means having the same box, not the same container cell 13:39
pdcawley: this is PIL internals, not exposed to p6 :)
pdcawley Ah. Gotcha.
I'll go back in my box shall I? 13:40
Limbic_Region autrijus - I am on it
autrijus only if you feel like to..
Limbic_Region: cool, thanks 13:41
Limbic_Region autrijus - WRT what to do if someone wants to fund - I have tentatively added this: or now email - things may change but if they do I will post about that myself. 13:44
coral morning, autrijus
autrijus sure.
Limbic_Region done 13:45
Limbic_Region goes back to being a lurker
autrijus Limbic_Region++ 13:46
stevan Limbic_Region++ # I have to concur
autrijus so how many hours till ingy's on air?
stevan it is about 7 AM on the west coast I think 13:47
autrijus ok, we have 5 hours
autrijus goes back fixing the 15 remaining subtest fails
scook0 autrijus: thanks for your time. see y'all later. 13:48
svnbot6 r6027 | autrijus++ | * As a special form, `do {STMT}` is taken as `do STMT`. 13:50
Aankhen`` pdcawley++ # mutual appreciation of TSa 13:59
svnbot6 r6028 | rafl++ | * Added debian/pugs-modules.install
r6028 | rafl++ | * Changed maintainer address (mookooh.org is dead).
r6028 | rafl++ | * Bumped up version to 6.2.9-1.
r6029 | autrijus++ | * first batch of TODOify for this release. 14:15
r6030 | fglock++ | * added method negate() in Recurrence.pm
r6031 | autrijus++ | * second batch of TODOify 14:17
r6031 | autrijus++ | * hash_access_interpolation.t is mistesting, but still points to a real
r6031 | autrijus++ | parsing bug. fixing...
r6032 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props. 14:32
r6032 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS:
r6032 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS.js: Fixed display of native JS exceptions.
r6032 | iblech++ | * New Prelude::JS::Context: Added stub &scalar and &list.
r6032 | iblech++ | * New Prelude::JS::Math: Added &pi, &atan (with one and two args), &sin,
r6032 | iblech++ | &cos, &tan, &asin, and &acos.
r6032 | iblech++ | * Prelude::JS::Array: Added &reverse (but doesn't use context yet).
r6032 | iblech++ | * t/builtins/math/trig.t: Added TODO feature tests for &asin and &acos.
ingy hola 14:44
Limbic_Region como esta ustede? 14:45
ingy 3 hours, 50 minutes until show time
Limbic_Region que bueno
ingy autrijus: Q: what pugs hackathons have you been to?
autrijus ingy: the .au one with leo+chip and the .ca one with lots of people 14:46
ingy: ~50 minutes till 6.2.9-release
my local copy should be passing all the test now, so entering preflight anytime 14:47
iblech: you up for updating ChangeLog so it's less ambiguous about js?
ingy yay
autrijus: you forget the first one!
autrijus first one? 14:48
ingy taipei
autrijus oh. you were there too so that goes w/o saying :)
ingy well I was at .ca too :p
autrijus right. 14:49
ingy ok, go release pugs
autrijus although working on perldoc instead :)
I wasn't at the .il one, though.
ingy when was .il?
mjl69 is that what brian d foy was referring to in his perlcast interview when he said a bunch of guys in a room furiously working on laptops at yapc? The Real Programmers.
iblech autrijus: Yep, currently resmoking
autrijus mjl69: likely
iblech: cool, and thanks for catching my misfix to runsmoke 14:50
iblech autrijus: Will need ~~27min
autrijus that's fine
iblech My bad for breaking it the first time...
mjl69 (perl audio interviews)++
autrijus I fixed a parser bug that should affect you as well
iblech The do { STMTS } thing?
autrijus no, "<%h<1>>" was mismarsed as "<" ~ %h{'1>'} 14:51
retesting, about to commit, but that should only affect two subtests, doesn't affect percentage much
iblech Ah, ok.
svnbot6 r6033 | iblech++ | * t/builtins/strings/length.t: Use for with n-ary block instead of split. 14:55
r6033 | iblech++ | Doesn't affect normal Pugs (still passes 31/31).
r6033 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS:
r6033 | iblech++ | * PIL::Parser, PIL: Fixed parsing and quoting of >255 chars.
r6033 | iblech++ | * Prelude::JS::Str: Stubbed &bytes, &codes, and &graphs.
r6034 | autrijus++ | * <...> and <<...>> was globbing whitespaces after them,
r6034 | autrijus++ | even when interpolated as hash subscripts.
r6034 | autrijus++ | * also, "%h<x>>" was misparsed as "%h{'x>'}".
putter dada: my (very very likely wrong) fuzzy recollection is the PGE error you described can be caused by parrot not being found due to PATH not being setup properly. 14:58
pdcawley_ grins at Aankhen. We love everybody! 14:59
stevan ingy: ping 15:01
dada putter: I installed the pugs binary (which includes parrot.exe) in C:\pugs and added C:\pugs to the PATH, so parrot.exe is there 15:02
putter szabgab: p5's /^P.*/ , aka /^P.*/s, is p6's rx:perl5/^P.*/ or rx/^P.*/ . No change. p5's /^P.*/m is p6's rx:perl5/(?m)^P.*/ or rx/^^P\N*/ . 15:06
dada: ah well, sorry. We should collect a list of error messages and what they mean in INSTALL. 15:08
ingy stevan: pong 15:09
stevan ingy: movie work for you?
autrijus resmoking r6035 for a final round before preflight
ingy can someone find me a Lambda Camels group photo
stevan: kind of I think
stevan ingy: kind of?
autrijus ingy: type
/who #perl6 15:10
ingy stevan: is it supposed to be moving or stop animation?
autrijus and take a screenshot
group photo for you
stevan ingy: 2 seconds each frame
ingy stevan: ok, then yes.
autrijus or take a screenshot of pugs/AUTHORS
stevan autrijus: :)
ingy I had various tech probelms
with the movie
stevan ingy: if you want I can send you the frames as well as the audio
audio is in WAV and frames are JPEG 15:11
ingy stevan: no, it's cool
autrijus the frames in jpeg?
ingy I'll make it work
stevan ok
autrijus stevan: bzip2 that and put it somewhere I can download?
stevan autrijus: sure
autrijus I can put it back into a more workable format :)
nothingmuch sighs
stevan excellent
nothingmuch and says hi
putter szabgab: re ap4, on page "Ruby" the image obscures text (... commun<clip>) in my browser.
autrijus avidemux2++
and this sorenson squeezeit thing isn't bad either
putter szabgab: also clipping on slide-just-before-references. in references, pugscode link is a different color than rest (not link?). 15:16
svnbot6 r6035 | autrijus++ | * recover the lexemeness of adverbian pairs.
stevan hey nothingmuch 15:18
putter szabgab: might also mention possibility of language implementations written in p6. thus being supported on all pugs backends (parrot, javascript, etc).
nothingmuch hola
ingy yo autrijus 15:21
stevan autrijus: is tar.gz okay?
svnbot6 r6036 | iblech++ | * ChangeLog: PIL2JS passes 64.00%. :)
r6036 | iblech++ | * docs/talks/README: Linked to PDF version of my talk
r6036 | iblech++ | "Anatomie eines Compilers am Beispiel von Pugs";
putter dada: ah, when its a PATH problem, that explanation follows the Cannot parse PGE.
autrijus stevan: sure, fine
ingy: yes?
ingy autrijus: I need to come clean with you 15:22
autrijus ingy: what did you do to me?
ingy I need to publically forgive you
autrijus ok... how did I offend you in the first place?
ingy FOR JOURNALING ALL MY FRICKIN TALK MATERIAL YESTERDAY!!!
;)
autrijus eh, you know that #perl6 is all logged anyway :) 15:23
but sure, go ahead and forgive me...
ingy sure, but not broadcast to the world!
autrijus: *smooch*
nothingmuch ingy: good luck
ingy hi nothingmuch!
autrijus ingy: alright. according to larry I'm just not good at Stealth... need to tell me to not broadcast something beforehand 15:24
stevan autrijus: uploading to feather right now, I will let you know when it is there
autrijus ingy: but I'm glad you plan to forgive me
ingy autrijus: :) it just makes it more of a challenge for me 15:25
which is a good thing :D
autrijus riiight.
you'll get 1)more audience and 2)audience who has higher expectation
ingy now I reeeeally need to forgive you :p
autrijus stevan: sure, or just add the link to the movie page in the kwiki 15:26
either way's fine
stevan autrijus: will do
ingy: I thought people came to your talks to see you, not to hear you :P
autrijus I have to concur 15:27
iblech autrijus: linide.sourceforge.net/pugs-svngraph-6.2.9.png linide.sourceforge.net/pugs-pil2js-...6.2.9.html
autrijus iblech: roger, thanks
"2878 ok" in a week
autrijus is still very impressed 15:28
ingy stevan: good point
autrijus: where is your picture in the mirror?
stevan autrijus: no.perlcabal.org/~stevan/GonzoMovie.tar.gz
also linked on the kwiki
ingy your canonical one
autrijus stevan: how did you find no.perlcabal.org the domain name? :)
ingy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autrijus_Tang
click on the picture 15:29
stevan I just copied your URL I think
autrijus hm.
ingy autrijus: go it
autrijus ingy: so did you choose the .mp4 version of my movie?
ingy got it
autrijus: yes 15:30
autrijus good
I'll mp4ize stevan's one shortly if I got around to it
ingy I hacked Kwiki/Spork to display it inside the slide
but stevan's movie wouldn't work that way
:\
So I run it in separate quicktime
autrijus: oh nice!! 15:31
autrijus and maybe subtitle it
ingy no need, but sure
autrijus ok, I won't bother then
putter so, we are in preflight testing?
autrijus putter: almost 15:32
a preflight tarball will be up in ~15 mins
stevan autrijus: BTW - the audio is timed for 2 seconds each frame
autrijus stevan: intentional? 15:33
stevan sort of :)
autrijus ok :)
stevan happy accident :)
autrijus tries to focus a bit more, with "coding music" 15:35
o/~ For God wrote in Lisp code / When he filled the leaves with green. / The fractal flowers and recursive roots: / The most lovely hack I've seen. o/~
svnbot6 r6037 | autrijus++ | * redo.t: unTODO an unexpected passing 15:37
autrijus hey Darren_Duncan. having fun?
Darren_Duncan yes, the morning OSCON keynote just started, Nat Torkington is on stage 15:38
Larry's onion was last night, and Damian's dead languages
all good stuff
last night, Larry's family was in attendence, and I had a chat with both him and them 15:39
QtPlatypus Darren_Duncan: Is the Onion on the web somewhere?
Darren_Duncan Larry's talk had lots of great art in his slides, and they were drawn by his daughter
partly on my suggestion, she will be posting them on her website soon 15:40
I don't know if its on the web
I know that Damian's won't be
Larry's talk was mainly about secret agents
comparing 16 different personalities with Perl community personalities 15:41
autrijus what does "Capacity" mean anyway?
Limbic_Region my drill instructors thought it was great fun in boot cammp
Darren_Duncan Larry explicitly mentioned you in the talk also
QtPlatypus autrijus: In what context?
autrijus QtPlatypus: in the larry context ;)
Darren_Duncan I mean, mentioned Autrijus
in regards to Pugs
autrijus I'm supposed to be the agent with Stealth:1, Combat:4, Capacity:2
Darren_Duncan but maybe also with one of the personalities 15:42
so you saw the details somewhere?
QtPlatypus autrijus: Means how much you can carry.
autrijus Darren_Duncan: in #oscon
Darren_Duncan I see
QtPlatypus I'm guessing. It looks RPGish.
autrijus QtPlatypus: oh. ah. as in lbs
Darren_Duncan never been there
is it on freenode?
autrijus no, on magnet I think
irc.perl.org
Darren_Duncan okay, will look in there ... 15:43
putter hmm... so what happend around day 120? (re commit graph linide.sourceforge.net/pugs-svngraph-6.2.9.png ) 15:55
coral 6.2.9 out? 15:56
autrijus uploading
coral unf
autrijus++
autrijus (preflight 1, that is)
gaal|work heya 15:57
autrijus hey gaal|work!
gaal|work interviewed 3,000 candidates today
with no voice :) 15:58
autrijus !
gaal|work ooh preflihgt!
preflight even
okay, fewer than 3,000
Darren_Duncan I can help with the preflight
gaal|work sure did feel like it though 15:59
autrijus pugscode.org/tmp/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.9-pre1.tar.gz
Limbic_Region what rev is that autrijus?
autrijus 1440991 bytes md5=527ea84fc880528d3369d4fe29122dfa
Darren_Duncan oh that; I just did a svn up
Limbic_Region will likely only be able to do 1 make test given how slow this maching is
gaal|work catches ride home and will start smoking in ~45 min - if there's still anything to smoke :
autrijus Limbic_Region: a future revision
hadn't committed thing back
will do now
gaal|work later &
Limbic_Region waits 16:00
autrijus Limbic_Region: er, please use the tarball :)
unless you for some reason can't download that
rafl autrijus: *** Cannot find a runnable 'ghc' from path. - I have /usr/bin/ghc -> /etc/alternatives/ghc -> /usr/lib/ghc-6.4/bin/ghc -> ghc-6.4 16:02
Limbic_Region not that autrijus
autrijus rafl: and /usr/bin is in path?
Limbic_Region just won't be finished compiling before everyone else says they are done make test
autrijus rafl: oh ok.
Limbic_Region downloaded it though anyway and is beginning make 16:03
putter is pre1 basically r6037? (if so, I'll leave a test run going...)
Darren_Duncan downloading
rafl autrijus: Sure, it is.
jp-autark I can smoke some too
autrijus rafl: hm. have some time to trace it into inc/Module/Install/Can.pm's can_run ?
rafl autrijus: OK. 16:04
autrijus putter: no, it's not, I havn't committed the changes back
I'm on win32, takes some time
putter ah. ok.
Darren_Duncan lots of bandwidth competition here, so dl is 2-4K/sec
autrijus it just gone blue screened on me, and I aborted chkdsk, so it's behaving weirdly
Limbic_Region the download shouldn't be a problem - it is still relatively small 16:05
my problem is having only 256MB of ram on this machine and having to compete for resources
Darren_Duncan indeed 16:06
its already half done
I'm also plugged into power, so all the disk access to compile shouldn't cause problem 16:07
autrijus ok, pre1 is now 6039. 16:10
svnbot6 r6038 | autrijus++ | * fix the Set/Span tests to mention -Inf not -Infinity
r6039 | autrijus++ | * bump versions; add config.yml to MANIFEST.SKIP
autrijus I'm smoking the same tarball on win32
rafl autrijus: Somehow $ENV{PATH} only contains '.'.. echo $PATH on the shell gives me: /home/rafl/.local/bin:/home/rafl/bin:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/ucb:/usr/local/bin
autrijus (already did fbsd)
rafl: hm. I don't think I reset PATH
is it like that for all perl programs?
trace Makefile.PL for how 16:11
Darren_Duncan should I re-get preflight now?
my last download almost finished
Limbic_Region autrijus - is 6039 preflight or are there still more changes coming?
autrijus Darren_Duncan: no, same thing
Limbic_Region: pre1 =:= r6039
Limbic_Region ok - will be faster to abort and svn up
rafl autrijus: Even perl -le 'print $ENV{PATH}' outputs nothing.. Hrm...
autrijus rafl: not likely to be my side of problem then 16:12
Darren_Duncan were there several pre1, or only 1 version of pre1? 16:13
Limbic_Region Darren_Duncan - it was faster for autrijus to post the tarball for pre1 then it was for the commits to show up in the repository
there is only 1 - available as 6039 or from the link
rafl autrijus: Of course. That scares me nonetheless. 16:14
Limbic_Region though when I svn up'd, I got 6040
Darren_Duncan okay
its untarred, now making ...
autrijus Limbic_Region: r6040 won't affect test results 16:15
svnbot6 r6040 | qtplatypus++ | Renaming rx_grammar.pl to rx_grammar.pm
Darren_Duncan actuallly, I'm not sure my ghc was installed properly ... can't find on path 16:16
but I thought I did it the same way as before
ran the package installer for Mac OS X 10.3
autrijus Darren_Duncan: maybe /usr/local/bin isn't in your path
Darren_Duncan I haven't changed the path from how Mac OS X defaults it 16:17
autrijus right, which did not include /usr/local/bin
I think.
QtPlatypus nods "Yep, thats the first thing I had to fix when dealing with OSX" 16:18
Darren_Duncan quick question: what command to add to my path?
autrijus export PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin 16:19
setenv PATH $PATH:/usr/local/bin
one of the two
if you feel like, you can add a probe for this in Makefile.PL and suggest people do the right thing -- or silently fix it for them -- but that may be too clever. 16:20
QtPlatypus autrijus: I think silently fixing it for them would be rude.
Darren_Duncan the first line seems to have worked, thanks
autrijus QtPlatypus: right. so fatal warning maybe 16:21
s/warning/error/
Limbic_Region begins nmake test on 6040
Darren_Duncan better to just spit out a "you need to do this first" message, and change nothing
16:21 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
Darren_Duncan now on 'make' 16:22
Limbic_Region autrijus - looks like I failed test 55 of io 16:24
autrijus Limbic_Region: looks like I just skipped it for you
r6041
Limbic_Region k
won't re-run if that's all that changed
Aankhen`` Hmm. 16:27
svnbot6 r6041 | autrijus++ | * unlink() in t/builtins/io/io.t gets platform-specific failures; skip for now.
Aankhen`` gaal: You on Win32?
jp-autark smoke of pre1: home.ifi.uio.no/~davidra/smoke.html
Darren_Duncan I think I'll just work with the svn instead of the tarball
its a fresh upload anyway
reintegrating fixes is faster
Limbic_Region odd - wonder why it said "skipped - rules support seems to be missing" 16:29
for t/builtins/undef that is
putter undef.t apparently tests some undef-related aspects of rules. curious. "skipped..." means "a" ~~ /a/ didn't match. 16:35
svnbot6 r6042 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - (p5)
r6042 | Stevan++ | * unify the storage of the metaclasses by moving it
r6042 | Stevan++ | into the BUILD submethod of Perl6::MetaClass
Limbic_Region putter - it is the message that I found curious, as I have a parrot.exe in my path - though not latest/greatest 16:37
Limbic_Region is in t/packages now
so far only 1 failure (now skipped) and 1 weird skipped message
Darren_Duncan I'm now just testing against the svn rather than the tarball, currently on 'make'
but the svn is clean
putter Limbic_Region: in interactive ./pugs , does "a" ~~ /a/ succeed? 16:41
gaal rehi
Limbic_Region putter - can't tell ATM as I don't really want to take away from the already limited resources
putter ;) 16:42
gaal what's smokin'?
putter groan
Khisanth gaal: your dinner!
Limbic_Region I did get a couple "useless use of a constant in void context" in t/pugsrun/ uppercase c - though no outright failures
putter pre1 aka r... something
gaal no, it's nm that burns pizzas :)
pf1? 16:43
Limbic_Region got a no subroutine found in uppercase m (again, no failur just a message)
Aankhen`` gaal: Ping!
Limbic_Region I got another rules skipped message in t/rules (but for only 1 test, the rest ran)
gaal heya! :)
Aankhen`` May I PM you?
gaal PM me?
what's that? 16:44
Limbic_Region private message
as in /msg
gaal of course
Aankhen`` Indeed.
putter ok, I have a pre1 failure in t/unspecced/eval_yaml .
pugs: toEnum{SyckKind}: tag (214748364802) is outside of enumeration's range (0,2) ... dubious died. 16:45
Limbic_Region hasn't made it that far yet 16:46
putter 49 skipped. that's the only failure. embedded parrot:perl5. optimized. recent parrot trunk/ and ghc snapshot. amd64. 16:47
oh, FC3. 16:48
I was running make tests with this configuration a lot yesterday, with no failures. 16:49
Limbic_Region t/unspecced/eval_yaml worked here 16:50
ok, finished 16:51
1 test failed (io which is now skipped), Win XP, optimized, parrot rather recent 16:52
there were 2 tests skipped due to no rules support which was odd
several tests that spit out error messages but didn't actually fail (like no defined sub and useless use of constant in void context) 16:53
other than that - all ok
putter Hmm, when I rerun t/unspecced/eval_yaml both directly and in harness, it passes. :( Ghc x86_64 flakeyness?
gaal i'm finishing off pass #1 of the build. will there be a pf2? 16:54
putter Limbic_Region: could you do the test now?
gaal darn, forgot to inline Test.pm
Limbic_Region putter - just did
*** Cannot parse PGE: a
*** Error: end of file
Limbic_Region wonders WTF that means 16:55
putter "a" ~~ /a/ !( "a" ~~ /a/) eval('!("a" ~~ /a/)')
ah.
putter looks around for an old copy of parrot...
Limbic_Region is about to update 16:56
autrijus gaal: yes, there will, based on feedbacks
gaal: I'm doing the movie. eta 10 min
then I'll roll pf2
and another round, and we'll be good to go.
putter what r number does parrot --version show?
gaal the movie? what, there's another one? *glee*
Limbic_Region too late putter
putter ? 16:57
Limbic_Region I just wiped out the directory
gaal reminder to smokers: if you have lots of RAM, precompile Test (but give a large heap)
Limbic_Region I checked parrot -V (which didn't have the rev) and it was 0.2.2
putter ah well. (you do that stuff _after_ testing is done...;)
gaal: details? 16:58
gaal putter: cp util/config-template.yml config.yml ; $EDITOR config.yml, uncomment two lines
the one with "precompile_modules" and "ghc_heap_size" 16:59
ones
putter ah, tnx.
Aankh|Clone bangs forehead on wall.
gaal this saves ~8 minutes on my box
Limbic_Region putter - parrot --version doesn't give more than 0.2.2 AFAICT
putter out of?
Aankh|Clone gaal: Wanna guess where I found binaries for XML::Xerces?
gaal where? :) 17:00
Aankh|Clone xml.apache.org, of course. The home of Xerces-P.
Limbic_Region though the rule test does now work in pugs
gaal :))
putter Limbic_Region: top line should say something like This is parrot version 0.2.2-devel (r8730) built for nojit. Unless its the official release I guess...?
Limbic_Region putter - I don't think that always works 17:01
I am getting it from Jonathan's prebuilt binary page
putter sigh. ok, thanks.
Limbic_Region same thing with Pugs - wouldn't ever tell me the rev level
Limbic_Region builds Pugs himself now and all is fine
Limbic_Region used to build parrot all the time as he was involved in the dev work, but only on Cygwin 17:02
Limbic_Region doesn't do anything these days as he is officially lurker only
putter So, has anyone run make test with the most recent parrot release? Ie, should we include a caveat in the release announcement about that not quite working? Or is it? 17:03
Limbic_Region putter - I can run the test suite again 17:04
the parrot from Jonathan's binary page was built today
putter gaal: that was 8 min out of X min?
gaal ~45?
i forget the exact numbers
it made the build slower by ~7 and the smoke faster by ~15 17:05
putter Turns out I have a copy of parrot-0.2.2. And a non-embedded pugs. I'll run it after the current make test run is done. 17:06
gaal actually: no, the cost is lighter than that. the time for the whole 2nd pass on my box is ~7min; but i already pay some of that cost anyway with precompiling Prelude alone 17:07
this needs to be more scientific.
putter gaal: ok, thanks. it looks like my tests are running sufficiently faster that it doesnt seem worth the divergence from common user experience. But I look forward with great hapiness to using it in development.
gaal actually in development you may not want to use it, unless you run the whole test suite often :) 17:08
stevan about? is there a new version of the movie up that i can try? 17:09
putter for parser changes, again, and again, and ...
and all the ext/ tests...
btw, is anyone checking the ext/ tests? 17:10
gaal see, that's because you actually know haskell. me, i recompile all the time just to make ghc happy :)
putter and is there any way to run them other than hand editing a harness call?
:)
gaal putter, they are on by default
brentdax wakes up and wonders what pdcawley wanted with him.
autrijus movie done 17:11
reencoding
ingy: how many hours do I have? :)
Darren_Duncan make done ... will try svn up again ...
pdcawley Wanted to know if you wanted to be BRG, or BD in the summary. Went with Brent Royal-Gordon.
putter :| err, "just to make ghc happy"? putter realizes he really didnt understand that...
pdcawley I think I've asked you before and forgot.
Darren_Duncan I'm at 6042 ... now starting make test
gaal putter, i meant i still make zillions of syntax mistakes or type errors whenever i code in haskell
i'm learning though, it used to be googols of 'em. 17:12
putter ah. :) yes. most of my time in haskell dev is spent in a "did it typecheck yet?" loop. which probably means I should take a more analytic and disciplined approach to it... but haven't yet. 17:13
autrijus I'm back. any new smoke failures?
Limbic_Region putter - almost back to t/builtins/undef with a parrot built today - so far so good
brentdax Yeah, I'm trying to use my Real Name(tm) from now on--the "Dax" is just in my From line for old times' sake. 17:14
gaal as for controlling what to smoke: util/yaml_harness.pl accepts a list of dirs on the comand line
putter re make test checking ext/ ... err, no?
gaal it defauilts to include ext
aahhhh, make test...
i thought you were running make smoke
putter ah, no. perhaps should.
gaal in that case i don't know, sorry :)
of course you should. it's got *colors* :) 17:15
my smoke is only in pugsbus/ :(
stevan autrijus: where is the movie ??
putter mumble gui*!?! mumble command line mumble
gaal no gui
yaml and html
"make smoke" on the command line
but you do need some per5 dependencies satisfied first: 17:16
putter pulling gaal's leg...
gaal "cpan Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix" should take care of that
gaal yelps voicelessly
putter actually, yes, I remember lacking prerequisites. hmm, perhaps that's something worth mentioning in INSTALL? Though the error may be self-explanatory...? 17:17
:)
gaal hey, t\pugsrun\09-dash-uppercase-c.t is still giving those warnings about "useless use of a constant in void context" (not fatal or anything)
it is
it says what you need to install
Limbic_Region and uppercase m yells about an undefined subroutine 17:18
gaal isn't that the test we always end up skipping? :)
ah no, the one with spaces in the path is.
autrijus stevan: uploading 17:19
gaal stevan ping?
stevan autrijus: cool :)
gaal: pong
autrijus stevan: I think you'll *love* it :)
gaal did you u/l a new version of your movie?
stevan autrijus: no doubt i will :)
autrijus gaal: what I'm uploading _is_ a new version of stevan's
stevan gaal: I put the audio and frames up for autrijus to do
autrijus much improved
gaal ah :)
?eval say <<cool>> 17:20
evalbot6 cool bool::true
autrijus ?eval <<cool>>
evalbot6 'cool'
Limbic_Region putter - parrot built today works fine AFAICT
gaal it's true that it's cool.
autrijus wmv uploading eta 90sec
mp4 coming in 5 mins
then swf
gaal then pf? :)
putter k
autrijus pf?
gaal you said there's a pf2?
autrijus ah, pf2 :)
yes.
actually, let me multitask.
autrijus opens a new screen to roll pf2 17:21
gaal there should be an executable format called pf
works only part of the time.
autrijus heh
perlcabal.org/~autrijus/oscon05-stevan.wmv
have fun 17:22
gaal smoke for pf1 eta 1min
stevan horray :)
gaal wow, that server is well-connected.
putter ok, that's just weird. Is there a known problem of make test in some pugs configurations running ext/ tests, and in others not? 17:23
stevan ((add 1 autrijus) (add 1 autrijus))
autrijus putter: yes, js does not and normal does
I think
or is that smoke? 17:24
autrijus is not very sure
szabgab puuter: thanks for the imput 17:25
gaal perlcabal.org/~gaal/smoke_xp.html
putter hmm. EMBED=parrot:perl , and I believe just parrot, never give me ext/ . But EMBED nothing just did. ?!?
gaal # pf1
szabgab hi gaal
gaal hey gabor
szabgab so is there any chance to see you tomorrow in the afternoon ?
putter all make test.
autrijus putter: I think iblech did that on purpose 17:26
gaal probably not, sorry
also i can't speak anyway
szabgab "ligthtening" talks are between 14:00-14:30 and mine is 10 minutes long
gaal so it's not like i can be very useful
szabgab what dou mean you cant'
speak ?
gaal throat infection 17:27
putter gaal: re scientifically, it could be nice to have runtimes in make test, for total, and perhaps (optionally?) for each entry.
gaal each entry is already in, when you run the yaml harness
ingy hola
gaal the whole smoke, also
ingy I need a picture of a Lambda Camel!
gaal but not for the build
ingy 1 hour to go!
autrijus: do we have release? 17:28
szabgab at least you are an authentic Pugs developer not like "the speaker"
putter autrijus: ah. ok. but... wouldn't you run the fewer tests on the slower configuration...? I must be missing the motivation...?
szabgab you could show code and irc with people sitting next to you
gaal "there's one!!"
ingy autrijus: and do you have a lambda camel image?
szabgab yeah nm, is going to be there I know, but still having two is better :-) 17:29
gaal ingy, would the joke Programming Perl 33rd ed image help?
szabgab gaal: ok I'll get off this thing, but I have some questions
gaal sure
ingy gaal: sure
I need it now!
gaal ingy, let me hunt for the beast
szabgab th 33rd ed is on the web site of Aevil 17:30
ingy what about the svk site
gaal www.axis-of-aevil.net/img/2003_08/p6_cover.jpg
szabgab I just saw it and used it in my slides
gaal (that was for ingy)
ha! jinx.
szabgab and I was searching for this about an hour !
gaal man, your google-fu needs an infusion :) 17:31
autrijus ingy: we have movie!
ingy: perlcabal.org/~autrijus/oscon05-stevan.mp4
gaal "perl6 parody image", 2nd link
ingy www.atomiccoffeemedia.com/theonion/...s/pugs.jpg
autrijus ingy: how many time before the talk?
s/many/much/
gaal lol, love the image ingy
szabgab sure if you know what magic words to use on Google then its easy :-)
ingy autrijus++ # movie 17:32
one hour to talk
autrijus good. look at the movie and see if it works?
szabgab ew can embed both p5 and parrot in pugs, right ? 17:33
autrijus szabgab: on some platforms, yes
gaal yay movie! kewl
szabgab but one of the is a language you can use (p5)
the other one is a backend, you won't write embedded parrot code in pPugs would you ? 17:34
integral you could, to use a parrot library like NCI
autrijus szabgab: you can do eval("...", :lang<pir>) 17:35
and require_pir "foo.pbc"
but that's about it I think, nothing terribly useful.
szabgab ok, so if I understand currently - on some platforms - you can use Perl6 code, Perl5 code after embedding the interpreter, Parrot code after embedding Perrrot
itz_ probably this isnt implemented yet .. but is there anyway of setting up tab complete on pugs>"A".<tab> to show methods like say?
autrijus szabgab: but external parrot almost works as well as, if not better than, embedded
itz_: it's a very nice idea.
szabgab ok what else can we embed now ?
stevan itz_: that will be much easier when the metamodel is in place 17:36
autrijus itz_: once we have the metamodel ready then we should have that
stevan :)
autrijus :))
szabgab: haskell, if you have hs-plugins
szabgab: that's about it... no embedded SpiderMonkey for now
itz_ the same answer to a computing related question :O must be a first :)
szabgab ok, these are the "front ends"
to kids now & 17:37
gaal bye szabgab!
how do you do that karaoke/voiceover thing anyway?
Khisanth pugs now embeds spidermonkey?
putter itz_: you might also look at... examples/eval.p6 the beginning of a p6 repl. 17:38
szabgab: &
itz_ putter: tnx I shall
autrijus Khisanth: no, not now
gaal: ms movie maker 17:39
Khisanth gaal: many things :)
autrijus finally: perlcabal.org/~autrijus/oscon05-stevan.swf
gaal (magic boxen)++
autrijus someone add them to the apocalypse.kwiki.org/?Movie page please
I'll reboot back to fbsd
stevan autrijus: I will 17:40
putter itz_: if you wanted to start on the <tab> autocompletion... symbol tables %Foo:: do exist, so could use that...
Khisanth gaal: you could also use virtual dub or mencoder or transcode :)
putter thinks "they do exist, don't they...?"
ingy autrijus: how do I embed an mp4 in html? 17:41
the <embed> tag is cropping
gaal (prgrammable magic boxen)++ 17:42
stevan autrijus: ingy: kwiki has updated movie links now 17:43
ingy I have the movies
szabgab back for a few seconds they start to ask for water and things :-)
ingy I need the proper html
wolverian <object>, I think. <embed> is IE only.
szabgab so the frontened is ok, now what is the curent backend ?
wolverian www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/obj...tml#h-13.3
ingy tries
Darren_Duncan 'make test' still in progress
szabgab what code can be run on Javascript / 17:44
?
gaal szabgab, over 60% of the test suite passes.
szabgab of Perl 6 you mean ? 17:45
gaal of pugs
ingy wolverian: <object data="url"> ???
putter well, the pugs test suite. which is a subset of p6
wolverian ingy, yes. remember alt="" too.
putter fuzzy but ever growing subset. add tests! ;) 17:46
Aankh|Clone This SWIG stuff is driving me crazy...
ingy wolverian: no worky!
szabgab what other backends are running now ?
ingy in firefox anyway
wolverian ingy, hmm. does your page validate? :) 17:47
ingy <object data="movies/oscon05-autrijus.mp4">
Darren_Duncan 'make test' currently t/oo ... no problems so far
putter as long as we're all waiting for tests and building movies... at some point we should abstract some of the test files, so for instance, a full array test suite can be applied to all objects which claim to be array-like, without having to duplicate things.
szabgab so what do I need in order to have the javascript backend ?
wolverian ingy, it might be a plugin problem then.
gaal szabgab, hmm, i don't know - unless somebody else does look for iblech 17:48
seen iblech
jabbot gaal: iblech was seen 2 hours 21 minutes 38 seconds ago
putter szabgab: perl, and brower. :)
s/brower/browser/ 17:49
but spidermonkey is much faster.
that you can get from mozilla.org (I fuzzily recall) 17:50
szabgab putter: I am slow, I have pugs compiled on my machine, what now ?
putter ./pugs -e 'say "hello, world!" # its traditional ;)
szabgab I also have say "Hello World" which would be enough for me
putter: that's ok, but that's not javascript 17:51
putter saying ./pugs starts it in interactive mode.
szabgab yeah, that part is already working thanks to gaal and the hackathon
ingy SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!
I got it
stevan++
autrijus++
putter javascript is under perl5/PIL2JS . see info there. it's a bit standalone at the moment.
szabgab now I would like to see it in my browser (and all locally, I won't have network tomorrow)
ingy <embed src="movies/oscon05-stevan.mp4" WIDTH="100%" HEIGHT="100%" CONTROLS="TRUE"> 17:52
autrijus woot
szabgab: perl5/PIL2JS/README explains how to get that working 17:53
wolverian what happened to standards? :(
stevan ingy: horray
autrijus wolverian: you want <object> ?
szabgab thanks, now reading ..
wolverian well, I think it's the w3c recommendation
stevan I guess this is the next best thing to being there :)
wolverian I don't mind if the page doesn't even attempt to validate :)
autrijus wolverian: not until you put <object> for <img> too :)
Aankh|Clone wolverian: <object> doesn't work in the majority of browsers.
wolverian Aankh|Clone, really? IE? 17:54
autrijus and really, if they had spelled it <obj>
then I think it will get more adoption.
Aankh|Clone wolverian: Not in IE, or Safari, or Konqueror, IIRC.
autrijus it's a huffman thing
wolverian Aankh|Clone, agh. sucks.
Aankh|Clone Why?
autrijus <object> I think works in IE
not sure about the konq series.
gaal autrijus, why? <blink> got plenty of adoption.
Aankh|Clone You're forgetting the greatest thing about standards: there's so many of them to choose from. :-)
wolverian autrijus, right. xhtml lets you do: <p src="image.png">alternative text</p>
gaal ducks
wolverian autrijus, where src can be video as well.
17:54 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
wolverian er, xhtml2, that is. 17:54
autrijus yes.
xhtml2 looks very cool
not as cool as perl6 but close 17:55
gaal maybe we can target it? :)
wolverian I thought I read they're retaining <b> and such, which sucks, though.
autrijus of course, there's this implementation bit...
gaal: lol, a turing complete xhtml?
gaal PHBs love to call HTML a language after all :)
autrijus I think you can do that with xml namespace... just compile to xslt
gaal pf2-p?
Aankhen`` wolverian: Why does retaining <b> and such suck? 17:56
autrijus gaal: as soon as you stop tempting me with good ideas
Aankhen`` Ah, autrijus, IE does support <object>, but it's broken.
autrijus or, sick ideas, as the case may be
Aankhen`` lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wa.../0865.html
putter autrijus: for post-release, would you mind a 10x slowdown in rx compilation? basically, Parser.hs hooks out to macros in Prelude.hs which hook back to Parser. Allows rx and friends to be replaced, lexically, perl-side. But perl5.t goes from under a minute to seven. :/
Aankhen`` diveintomark.org/archives/2003/04/1...t_explorer too.
gaal i saw your hair autrijus. it isn't pointy :)
autrijus putter: post-release, just commit things in and we'll talk :)
putter k. :) 17:57
Aankhen`` ingy: I believe that for <object> to work, you'd need to specify a mime-type using the `type` attribute.
putter (anarchistic development)++
Aankhen`` ingy: If you're interested, realdev1.realise.com/rossa/renderte...ktime.html
Darren_Duncan testing 17:58
wolverian Aankhen``, <b> versus <strong>. I dislike purely visual elements. that's what CSS is for
Aankhen``, albeit it's a useful shortcut. :)
gaal good read for after the release: www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/smullyan.html
Aankhen`` wolverian: <strong> does not cover every single case where you want text to appear in bold.
autrijus Aankhen``: that's what css is for.
font-weight: bold 17:59
but hey, mtowtdi.
Aankhen`` autrijus: So basically, you want to replace a short, easy to use, semantically meaningless tag with a long, less easy to understand tag and attribute combination that is also semantically meaningless?
(that is to say, <b>foo</b> vs. <span class="something_that_needs_to_be_bold">foo</span>) 18:00
putter gaal: :) 18:01
Aankhen`` wolverian, take a look at this if you have a minute: mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/05/09/semantic 18:03
ingy hey all: www.kwiki.org/apocalypse/start.html 18:04
THANK YOU
autrijus pre2 uploading
ingy: talk starting?
ingy can I announce 6.2.9?
autrijus you can, but not at beginning of the talk.
ingy I talk in 30 minutes
autrijus oh ok.
then you can.
ingy :)
I'll have irc window open on stage 18:05
stevan ingy++
ingy ok bbiab!
gaal we'll flag you :) "ingy ingy! tell them now!"
whiteg ingy++
integral the url on the first page of the slides is wrong :)
ingy hi whiteg!!!!
integral ingy: s{autrijus.org/apoc}{www.kwiki.org/apocalypse} 18:06
autrijus ingy: commit your .spork to docs/talks/ now!
ingy: we'll fix it for you! it's a tradition
(or put it somewhere and I can commit for you)
whiteg ingy: :)
ingy: good luck 18:07
wolverian Aankhen``, thanks, that's a good page. 18:08
Aankhen`` NP. 18:09
autrijus uploaded: perlcabal.org/~autrijus/Perl6-Pugs-...re2.tar.gz 18:10
size: 1441212 sha1: 39184eac1e4fe9a7008455a0415394575773b01a
this is likely the final -pre before release.
I'll update ChangeLog now and wait for ingy's slides to go into docs/talks/
but otherwise please start smoking 18:11
it corresponds to r6045.
szabgab trying the javascrip backend and does not seem to do anything 18:13
script is say "Hello World";
autrijus szabgab: it should have generated some .html files. also, do you have spidermonkey installed?
szabgab perl5/PIL2JS/pil2js.pl --output=hello_world.html --link=html hello_world.pil
ah I need spiedrmoneky ? 18:14
autrijus no, I think you can just open hello_world.html in your fav browser, no?
you want iblech for this
szabgab Firefox ?
autrijus and I really need to go back to releng :)
szabgab do that, I have 12 more hours to show this :-)
and nothingmuch will be there too so I can blame it on him :-) 18:15
later&
gaal bye again
autrijus gaal: resmoking? 18:17
gaal yes, near end of pass 1 build.
autrijus k 18:18
putter Aankhen``: ah well. parrot-0.2.2 works. so your failures are still unexplained. 18:19
ingy autrijus: you want my slides tarball? 18:21
autrijus ingy: just the spork file 18:22
Aankhen`` putter: Eh?
autrijus I spotted quite a number of glitches
but overall very very good talk
stevan ingy++ # I agreee :) 18:23
ingy www.kwiki.org/apocalypse.slides 18:24
nobody cares about details in an ingy talk 18:25
gaal ingy, what's the start url again?
putter Aankhen``: doh. don't mind me.
ingy www.kwiki.org/apocalypse/start.html
putter Limbic_Region: ah well. parrot-0.2.2 works. so your failures are still unexplained.
ingy I think
gaal ingy, thanks (and good luck :)
yes, it is
ingy gaal: thank you! 18:26
thank you all
autrijus ingy: fixing, eta 120 seconds
ingy go autrijus go
gaal autrijus, i have a minor fix, shall i commmit? 18:27
the default recommended heap size for precom prelude ***+ Test*** should be a little larget 18:28
larger
putter can't get beyond the start slide. looks like the js doesnt work in an up-to-date firefox on FC3. :(
stevan putter: hit "return"
putter doh. thanks. :/ 18:29
autrijus gaal: just commit
gaal: better do it now :)
gaal ack
stevan putter: it took a minute or two to realize that myself :)
autrijus ingy: autrijus.org/tmp/apocalypse.slides
Darren_Duncan I finished make test ... 1 failed file
autrijus ingy: have fun, you rock!
Darren_Duncan t/data_types/pairs.t
autrijus don't look at my changes -- after all I didn't look at iblech's changes back at YAPC::NA ;) 18:30
just spork -make again
Darren_Duncan I think pairs.t just died
anyway, I'm going to go over and show support for ingy in his audience
offline momentarily ...
autrijus have fun :) 18:31
gaal: how's the smoke?
gaal still compiling Run pass #2
once that 18:32
s finished eta 1300 sec more or less
autrijus ok. as soon as you report 100% ok I'll roll a release :)
sanity checking here too, plus changelogging
gaal my last commit was fun: one line patch to a comment. :)
autrijus heh :) 18:33
ingy should be on air now
gaal damn damn damn!
ran out of heap
apparenlty the patch wasn't good :)
autrijus roll it back ;)
gaal nah, why do that when i can suggest a bigger heap :)
autrijus maybe because some people don't have that amount of memory :) 18:34
(it's a hard req)
ah, just a comment?
go ahead ;)
gaal yes - most people don't precompile Test.pm anyway 18:35
better precompilation == better
(hmm, does the above equation imply that precompilation == 0 ?)
i won't commit until i know it's sufficient 18:38
so if you want to roll a tarball, don't wait for me
autrijus gaal: nah, I'll wait for you :)
gaal it == the value i gave
== embarrasingly high
brentdax What program is used to display these slides? 18:39
gaal a web browser 18:40
putter final (pre2) test run begins... 18:44
autrijus good
gaal uh oh. my directive was not honored 18:45
sorry :(
autrijus np :(
putter brentdax: www.kwiki.org/apocalypse/start.html search.cpan.org/~ingy/Spork-0.20/ 18:46
gaal restarting, but this is probably indicative of a PugsBuild bug :(
Darren_Duncan test 18:48
the autrijus video is playing now
just ended
ingy autrijus: I think they liked the movie
Darren_Duncan I'm at ingy's talk ...
I did 18:49
autrijus ingy: I listened to it.
and I heared the applause too
gaal smoke started. eta 1350 sec
autrijus boojum++ # skype feed
obra hah
stevan skype feed? where? 18:50
autrijus stevan: private :)
stevan ah
putter abandons google search for oscon skype :( 18:51
gaal heh :)
putter fyi, parrot-0.2.2 vs parrot trunk/ is not an issue (on FC3 etc etc) vis make test (err, the flavor of make test which includes etc/). one test run still in progress. 18:52
Remind me why make test sometimes includes ext/ and sometimes not? 18:53
(preceeding parrot observation was vis pre1) 18:54
Darren_Duncan I don't know
in my experience, it only runs ext/ if all the normal t/ worked
one t/ failure, and no ext/ is run ... its very annoying, really
and the smokers don't have that problem
putter maybe have separate make test and make fulltest ? That would also provide a place to put "it just runs toooo long" tests. 18:56
autrijus ok, changelog done. who still smoking? 18:57
gaal me
putter It would also be nice to get the rules tests out from t_disabled.
clkao should i? last i tried it will take 1 hour
putter me
ingy autrijus: is it soup yet? 18:58
Darren_Duncan data_types/pairs.t didn't work before
autrijus Darren_Duncan: yes, noted 18:59
ingy: waiting for gaal + putter to finish smoking
will be done before your talk is done
putter is working through t/operators/... no issues yet...
gaal the last test in io.t crashes for me (w32 native) 19:00
autrijus ok. 19:01
clkao even make clean takes so long 19:02
infinite look
loop
putter clkao: really? hmm... perhaps I should try it on one of my pre1 builds...? 19:05
clkao it's old makefile
rerun makefile.pl works
putter ah
autrijus ok, ready to fly anytime. 19:06
gaal i'm still in oo, near the end
autrijus k, will wait for you two
ingy autrijus: can you give guido a committer bit? 19:07
k thx
autrijus is he in the audience?
guido at python dot org?
I don't usually send it to people who is not expecting it :) 19:08
putter I'm though t/ without issues. ext/ is running... 19:09
gaal i've started pugsrun, a little less than 5min i think. 19:10
autrijus pugs committership invitation sent to both guido and larry.
putter but based on t/, and pre1 ext/ , I'm fine with flying. 19:11
autrijus 8108 tests all pass here.
putter :)
What about matz? :)
autrijus if matz is in the audience sure :)
gaal or spj? :)
autrijus I'll do that at icfp not oscon :) 19:12
stevan and brendan (the Javascript guy)
gaal t/rules/, so far so good.
autrijus writing release notes. 19:16
gaal &clear for @takeoff; 19:17
autrijus okay. fly! 19:18
gaal cheers
xb95 everybody clapped in the audience
autrijus pugscode.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.9.tar.gz :)
Darren_Duncan who just said "its soup:"
ingy A collective w00t to you all 19:19
putter yay!!
autrijus ingy: I hope the release didn't go unnoticed :)
xb95 I will have to play with Pugs later, I had never known much about it. This is exciting. :)
putter toot! toot!
autrijus ingy: you rock :) 19:21
Amnesiac are you guys at OSCON right now? 19:22
autrijus Amnesiac: not physically, but virtually :)
Amnesiac ah :P
couldn't attend this time?
autrijus decided not to :) 19:24
Amnesiac I see 19:26
putter with flight 6.2.9 vanishing into the mists of time, putter dreams of making big buggy and dangerous patches to pugs... But that will have to wait, for now is a time for... paperwork!
bye all &
autrijus ciao putter :)
putter congrats ingy! 19:27
stevan Amnesiac: autrijus didnt want to submit to another body cavity search at the airport
Amnesiac haha
autrijus too true, sadly 19:28
Darren_Duncan naptime see youse later 19:34
autrijus release notes up. journaling... 19:38
gaal i figured out why my heap size request wasn't honored earlier 19:39
clkao all tests pass with PUGS_EMBED=perl5
though a bit too late 19:40
autrijus still, good to know :)
gaal (at first i added a trace print, and it worked, so i was about to commit a "here, i don't know why but this helps" patch :)
but the real reason is that i didn't rerun perl Makefile.PL
Limbic_Region hey - how did ingy's talk go? 19:41
gaal that's kinda distressing, because config.yml is supposed to be a dep
autrijus Limbic_Region: I hear that it's quite well received
gaal ah! it's just a dep for pugs... hmm. how do i make it a trigger for a makefile regen?
autrijus gaal: touch Makefile.PL
# evil but works
gaal heh
autrijus Limbic_Region: the videos got some applauses :) 19:42
gaal heh heh :)
Limbic_Region good
I will have to check out the video from home - apparently I can't download/install the proper codex and only get sound
autrijus it surprises me that you can't even get .swf 19:43
or .wma
gaal wha! it *still* doesn't work. this can't be<tm>
autrijus I mean .wmv
usually one of the two could work
gaal anyone here with plenty of RAM? (> 512mb) 19:44
dudley gaal: 768M here
gaal okay, please help me reproduce this: 19:45
take the release tarball
add this to util/build_pugs.pl
print ((join " ", @_) . "\n");
as line 65, right after "sub run" 19:46
then vi config.yml
uncomment precompile_modules and ghc_heap_size
perl Makefile.PL ; make 19:47
Limbic_Region autrijus - the .wmv does work - but only sound
gaal and tell me if pass #2 crashes + how much memory GHC thinks it has
Limbic_Region not all .wmv are created equal
Limbic_Region didn't try the .swf
dudley gaal: okay, give me a minute
Khisanth Limbic_Region: which wmv?
oscon05-stevan.wmv worked fine
gaal the vexing issue is that on an svn working copy the above *does* work. 19:48
Limbic_Region apocalypse.kwiki.org/index.cgi?Movies
gaal thanks dudley!
dudley np
gaal this will take more than a minute though :)
Limbic_Region Khisanth - depending on your version of media player and what codexen it has installed
gaal bbibab # food &
Khisanth Limbic_Region: not even using windows :) 19:49
Limbic_Region heh
not really an option for me ATM
.swf is working though 19:50
autrijus cool
at least you get some sort of image
Khisanth that camera for an eye look is ... 19:51
autrijus ...my signature look.
Khisanth "I am Autrijus of Borg..."
stevan Khisanth: that is his eye
he is a cyborg dont you know
Khisanth :)
stevan: that would explain alot actually
the coding while sleeping for example 19:52
autrijus "in the long run, we are all cyborgs"
Khisanth wouldn't mpeg1 have been easier? :) 19:53
autrijus true, but sorenson squeeze put mpeg1 at the second page :) 19:54
and I followed the path of least resistance
s/squeeze/squeezeit/
Khisanth then whey did you create three?! :P
autrijus well, .wmv is master copy, but ingy is on osx, so .mp4 is more natural 19:55
but I wasn't sure he can run the .mp4 codec, so I made .swf as fallback
end of story :)
Khisanth not .mov anymore?
autrijus squeezeit can't generate .mov file properly on my machine
:-/
and I hear .mp4 is the future anyway 19:56
Limbic_Region the last video creation stuff I did was years ago when my boss wanted the clip from Charlie Brown with the 5 cent psychiatrist bit - I had to figure out how to rip the DVD and convert the format - back then it didn't seem all that easy 19:57
autrijus it's my first time playing with video creation too 19:58
lots of false starts
Limbic_Region has now enjoyed both movies 19:59
autrijus :D
Khisanth it's quite easy these days :)
some formats easier than others
Aankhen`` G'night. 20:04
gaal bye A!
Khisanth hmm Azumanga 20:09
dudley whee, pass #2 20:13
gaal okay, Run will take a while
in the meantime: scoll up a bit to the line just before GHC started. do you see +RTS -Msomething -RTS ? 20:15
dudley s/something/348m/ 20:16
gaal which is what you have in your congig.yml, right?
config
dudley yep
gaal okay. that's basic sanity. :) 20:17
now to see GHC honored that.
szabgab to finish my questions, can Pugs compile to Parrot already ? 20:24
autrijus szabgab: yes. ./pugs -BPIR -e 'say 123'
./pugs -CPIR -e 'say 123' > foo.pir 20:25
(-B is compile+run, -C is compile only)
the PIR backend is currently quite behind javascript though.
szabgab ok, so Pugs can run P6 by itself, through Parrot and through my browser (Javascript) am I right, that's it currently ?
autrijus yes.
and also thru p5
but only for very simple things 20:26
but I plan to remedy that.
szabgab do you mean it can generate p5 script ?
autrijus yes.
szabgab p6->p5 compiler ?
autrijus yes.
szabgab oh
autrijus the code is in perl5/PIL-Run/
like JS, it's not yet integrated back.
szabgab as if I could make sense of that :-(
autrijus these are all new developments in the last two weeks :) 20:27
Limbic_Region wipes the drool from szabgab's chin and attempts to close the gaping oriface
szabgab oh I see that's the ONLY reason I have not noticed them :-)
autrijus right. in YAPC::NA we talked about them a lot
but real working code only begings in the past few weeks 20:28
szabgab I missed that by a week, but I hope YAPC::EU will give some if that too
if/of
autrijus hm, guido didn't pick up the pugs committer invitation. I wonder why 20:30
gaal dudley, for me, running the GHC second pass manually (i.e., copything the GHC command line over and submitting it to the shell verbatim) did work.
was he indeed in the audience?
dudley gaal: It's been chugging along at 217M real memory for a while now 20:31
gaal it oughta still rise
autrijus gaal: he was... although it turned out that he didn't ask for committershi
p
larry asked it for him
gaal hee
once upon a time, livejournal had invites. it was considered good to "recruit" active interesting writers - people were proud of the people they brought 20:33
szabgab ./pugs --help tells me (valid backends are: Ghc, Parrot, Pil, Pir, Pugs)
gaal so, nice catch for today, autrijus :)
szabgab which is Perl5 ?
gaal to continue the analogy, sometimes newcomers didn't seem eager in the beginning... but turned out to get hooked after a few months. 20:35
:)
stevan it would be pretty cool to have Guido in the Pugs AUTHORS file :) 20:36
autrijus indeed :) 20:37
szabgab: none is perl5/js. that's what I meant by "not integrated"
szabgab ah 20:38
dudley gaal: done. GHC maxed out at 275M. 20:42
gaal okay, that means it was honored on your setup.
it == the heap size request
which means i have no idea why sometimes it isn't honored.
:-/ 20:43
anyway, thanks, dudley++
dudley np :-) 20:44
okay, time to go home now. Adios! 20:46
autrijus iblech: hm, linide.sourceforge.net/pugs-livecd-6.2.9.iso is down? I thought it was up a while ago 20:49
ingy hola 20:53
gaal night all! nice flying with you :)
oh - congrats ingy :)
ingy thanks gaal :)
gaal bye &
autrijus ingy: so how's the talk :) 20:54
the skype feed broke right after my video
ingy heh
it was great
I think so
autrijus woot
so you can enjoy the conference now 20:55
ingy I guess some people maybe didn't like my personal rants
autrijus you mean against oscon?
or against blue sugar cubes?
or against george?
ingy yeah... take no prisoners eh?
autrijus mm :)
so did you use my modified slides?
ingy I just say what's on my mind
autrijus the one with french poetry 20:56
ingy I take things from various sources 20:58
too little time to say everything
autrijus *nod* I just wanted to make sure that I'm not arguably the greatest hacker :) 20:59
ingy you are a great hacker 21:00
:p
autrijus right, but not the way you put it, so I changed it slightly :)
but anyway, thanks so much for doing the stunt
ingy yeah, thanks for writing it 21:01
:)
autrijus nah, most of the materials are from you and interviews
btw, the interviews == good idea
I hope my metaphysical mishmash didn't turn people off
ingy yeah, there was some new fun created
movies++
autrijus movies++ # indeed 21:02
ingy Gloria Wall laughed a lot at your metaphysical mishmash :)
autrijus oooh. nice :)
ingy so I think it was nice
szabgab where are the slides ? 21:03
autrijus :D
szabgab: in the pugs tree
docs/talks/oscon-apocalypse.spork
rendered html is www.kwiki.org/apocalypse/start.html
szabgab thx 21:04
ingy szabgab: www.kwiki.org/apocalypse/slide23b.html#end 21:05
szabgab autrijus: that page does not have working links even autrijus.org/apoc/start.html is 404 21:06
ingy my personal favorite
*yawn*
I need a nap
clkao ingy: you should go to svl talk!
autrijus ingy: I need to sleep too
gotta wake up in 5 hours
wonder how I can do that 21:07
alarm clocks, maybe
clkao it won't work
shapr lots of them
autrijus a beowolf... 21:08
...not going to work
shapr heh, a beowulf cluster of clocks? That just might work.
autrijus gosh, that slide23b's damian picture is animated gif
horrors
autrijus waves & 21:14
pdcawley ?eval my @a = (1,2); my @b = (3,4,5); map -> $arg { $arg } @a, @b 21:45
evalbot6 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Limbic_Region ?eval my @a = (1,2); my @b = (3,4,5); zip @a, @b 21:46
evalbot6 (1, 3, 2, 4, undef, 5)
buu Eval bot so sexy.
integral safe sexy! 21:47
pdcawley ?eval my @a = (1,2); my @b = (3,4,5); my @c; for @a,@b -> $_ { push @c, $_ }; @c
evalbot6 [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
pdcawley ?eval my @a = (1,2); my @b = (3,4,5); map -> $arg { $arg } \@, \@b 21:48
evalbot6 Error: unexpected "\\" expecting block construct, ":", "::", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
Limbic_Region you forget an a or was that intentional?
pdcawley Forgot.
?eval my @a = (1,2); my @b = (3,4,5); map -> $arg { $arg } \@a, \@b 21:49
evalbot6 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
pdcawley Ooh... that's broken.
According to Luke that should be ((1,2), (3,4,5))
?eval my @a = (1,2,3); zip @a, @a, @a 21:50
evalbot6 (1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3)
Limbic_Region ok, so according to Luke - what syntax should you use to get the current behavior?
IOW - when is auto-derefening not
pdcawley Ghod knows.
Personally I think that signature slurpy is over eager. 21:51
What's signature of zip? 21:52
Limbic_Region sorry - was in #perl 21:54
dunno
pdcawley grins, I've just asked Luke on p6l. Interested to hear what he has to say.
Limbic_Region I have pretty much removed myself from p6 dev and when I ready the summary today, I didn't know what the recent decision on slurpy params was but I took it that you didn't like it
pdcawley I don't. But I may have been misreading the spec and living in blissful ignorance for months. 21:55
s/months/years/
putter zip is in docs/AES/S29draft.pod 22:00
(it came up in conversation with cybercobra) 22:02
pdcawley_ Hmm... unless I'm seriously misunderstanding Luke' s point, that should flatten all the list args to zip in a single list. 23:11
But I've got to go AFK again... sorry. 23:12
svnbot6 r6057 | fglock++ | * updated Recurrence.pm ChangeLog 23:13
r6058 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - (p5)
r6058 | Stevan++ | * cleaning up some hacks in Object
r6058 | Stevan++ | * cleaning up MRO handling in MetaClass
r6058 | Stevan++ | - adding comments about circularity issues
r6058 | Stevan++ | * cleaning up _metaclass_dispatch in MetaModel
r6058 | Stevan++ | - now properly handles private method calls
r6058 | Stevan++ | - ideally this can be removed post bootstrapping,
r6058 | Stevan++ | I will have to investigate that
r6059 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: README: Added basic getting started info, szabgab++ for asking.
r6059 | iblech++ | In short: use ./jspugs.pl, enter :precomp, then enter Perl 6 code and point
r6059 | iblech++ | your browser to ./output.html.
brentdax heads over to PAUSE... 23:14
iblech stevan: FYI, I'll probably start integrating Perl6.MetaModel tomorrow (i.e. in ~~15h) 23:19
nothingmuch ingy: cute tal.
k
too bad you didn't fix my typos/wordos though ;-) 23:20
23:37 Maddingue__ is now known as Maddingue
iblech autrijus: re (was at local Linux usergroup meeting, hold my talk, people seemed to like it :)) It seemed .sf.net was down, but it's up again now. I've just uploaded the new live cd 23:39
autrijus: How will PIL2 emit class definitions? E.g., what's the PIL for class Foo is Bar { has Baz .$grtz is rw }? 23:40
(Need to sleep now, but will backlog.) 23:41
Night all :)
brentdax The PAUSE indexer got a little confused when it looked at WWW-Kontent-0.01...it seems to have sat there going "I don't see any `package` statements--where are the modules?" 23:45

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