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Set by stevan on 15 August 2005.
01:35 sleepster is now known as typester
stevan luqui: yo punk! 01:57
luqui stevan, po yunk 02:12
we seem to be 20 minutes out of phase 02:16
luqui &
walter \join #pihlopase 03:32
03:59 autark is now known as jp-autark
QtPlatypus reads up on fuzzylogic and ponders fuzzy junctions. 04:51
luqui QtPlatypus, see Quantum::Entanglement 04:52
not only are they fuzzy junctions, the fuzziness is complex 04:53
coral (qtplatypus: |...)hello(...| qtplatypus) 05:02
geoffb *yawn* 07:38
geoffb staying up with fussy infant while spouse gets blessed, blessed sleep 07:39
Oh for heaven's sakes. In frustration at slow and/or impossible pugs builds, I finally order a new machine (for the first time in years) as a replacement development box. 08:16
webmind- heh
perl6 is good for the computer industry 08:17
geoffb After spending an entire day doing research and comparison of each and every part, I finally slap the credit card down, and then go to check the usual tech sites for some fun reading -- only to find that they just updated their buyer's guides for the first time in ages.
Sigh. I guess now I get to see if I made the right decisions. :-) 08:18
webmind- heh
geoffb webmind: heh -- I was thinking earlier that I've proven that Perl 6 is good for the economy. :-)
nothingmuch From autrijus 's journal: "Container equivalence test =:= distinguished from object identity test eqv." 08:36
eqv is *not* generic equality? 08:37
why is =:= useful at all?
www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....uage/22952 08:39
autrijus eqv is by default obj ident 08:41
but you can override it to mean generic eq
nothingmuch and that sucks
for Int and so forth
culturally, i mean
autrijus maybe Int does override eqv to mean value eq. 08:42
nothingmuch i don't know wtf is going on in @Larry>>.head WRT to equality testing
autrijus and I don't know what's the expected use case of =:= either.
nothingmuch it's the most inconsistent, non newbie friendly semantics i've ever seen
there is some backwards compatibility, which I can understand, but 'eqv', 'equals', '=:=', and so forth... why?!
nothingmuch sighs heavily 08:43
btw, iblech++ ; # m19s28.vlinux.de/cgi-bin/pugs-smokeserv.pl 08:44
autrijus bbiab...
Aankhen`` geoffb: What's the config of the machine you ordered? 09:00
nothingmuch iblech: ping 09:03
or anyone, actually
i have perl in /usr/local/bin/perl and /usr/bin/perl
geoffb Aankhen``, designed to be fast, but also give me good programming habits. So: Athlon 64 X2 3800+, 2 GB OCZ Platinum, MSI Neo4/SLI Platinum, XFX 7800 GTX OC, etc. 09:04
nothingmuch i'd like to use /usr/local/bin/perl for all things pugs (running makefile, config, smoke server client, pil run)
# ./pugs -w t/rules/from_perl6_rules/combchar.tPerl lib version (v5.8.6) doesn't match executable version (v5.8.1) at /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.6/darwin-thread-multi-2level/Config.pm line 32.
geoffb Aankhen``, oh, and quiet. Did my best to spec quiet moving parts. 09:05
We'll see how well it works
Aankhen`` Wow.
Niice stuff.
geoffb When you only upgrade a couple times a decade, you store up the lust. :-)
broquaint /usr/local/bin/perl Makefile.PL # Perhaps, nothingmuch? 09:06
geoffb This box should be literally an order of magnitude faster than the old box
nothingmuch, you know, I think broquaint is right, actually.
Aankh|Clone Weird... 09:07
[14:35:33] <geoffb> When you only upgrade a couple times a decade, you store up the lust. :-)
geoffb nothingmuch, though I seem to recall that some pugs tests try to do their own harness-facsimile and get it wrong
Aankh|Clone [14:35:38] <Aankhen``> Heh.
[14:35:55] <Aankhen``> Are you getting two graphics cards?
Last I got.
geoffb Those last two lines you sent I didn't get before.
And no -- for now, just the one, though I specifically got an SLI board in case of later upgrade
Aankh|Clone Ah, I see.
What about storage?
geoffb Using a still-in-packaging 200 GB Seagate 7200.7 SATA I had laying around. 09:09
Aankh|Clone Mmm.
geoffb Nothing special, but importantly: quiet.
Aankh|Clone Seems a little wimpy for the specs.
Does your work require minimum noise, or is it just your preference?
geoffb Oh sure, wimpy, but like I said, quiet -- and why buy a new drive, when you already have a SATA drive lying around gathering dust? 09:10
Aankh|Clone Buy one more 200 GB drive and put them in RAID 0, then buy two 500 GB drives and put them in RAID 1. :-
geoffb My office has 6-10 computers running at any given time, many of them too old to be designed for anything resembling quiet. It gets annoyingly loud. 09:11
I'm slowly replacing the loudest boxes with new quiet ones
Aankh|Clone I see.
geoffb Re: RAID drives -- heh. Well, the case has room, and the chipset can do (though IIRC under linux most chipset raid is actually slower than software raid) 09:12
Aankh|Clone What's the whole thing costing you? 09:14
geoffb Too much, and thankfully a lot less than it would be if I didn't already have a few of the parts and peripherals I needed. 09:15
Aankh|Clone Heh.
geoffb The monitor for one, glad I didn't have to include that this time around, sheesh.
Aankh|Clone I need a new monitor... one which can do 1280x1024 at more than 60 Hz. :-\ 09:16
I've thought of upgrading mine very often, but the thing is, buying another 17" one seems really stupid, and I don't have the desk space for anything larger. Oh, and LCDs are way beyond my reach. 09:17
geoffb a few months ago, I finally just had had it with wimpy resolution, and mothballed my LCDs to return to the land of a big (and HEAVY) CRT
Aankh|Clone LOL.
wolverian I have a five year old Nokia trinitron display, 17". It is still better than any LCD I've seen. 09:18
(I run it at 1280x1024. That's the only bad side - resolutions above that go below 85Hz) 09:19
Aankh|Clone Lucky you.
Once we go abroad, I'm not buying a monitor smaller than 24". :-P
geoffb An Apple Cinema display is a truly gorgeous thing, but it's A) expensive as hell (especially the 30", which also requires a high-end video card to drive it), and gets the gorgeous color by having crap response time 09:20
Aankh|Clone www.go-l.com/
Go look at their Athens displays.
geoffb Whee, pugs build finishes, I can launch firefox again . . . :-/ (THIS WOULD BE WHY I'M GETTING A NEW BOX) 09:21
Aankh|Clone LMAO.
More specific link.
geoffb As soon as FF pages in, I'll take a look. :-) 09:23
And BTW, if you do go the CRT route, I've been happy with my NEC FP2141SB.
Aankh|Clone That sounds familira. 09:24
Familiar, even.
Ah. 09:25
geoffb It was recommended in a few buyer's guides, which is what led me to it
Aankh|Clone It was one of the displays I considered for my dream machine some years ago. :-)
Then I replaced it with a 61" plasma display (also from NEC).
geoffb In your dreams, or in RL?
Aankh|Clone Dreams.
09:27 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
Aankhen`` My kingdom for a Libermann! 09:27
www.go-l.com/_images/hdspeed_machl_3.8_full.gif 09:28
geoffb Wow, that Athens display is a beaut. Two nits: 1) What in the world video card(s) are needed to run it, and 2) I see a lot of buzzwords in the specs, without very man actual *specs*
er, very many
Aankhen`` Yeah, they're good at hiding specs. :-)
I believe those displays are meant to be used only with other L systems. 09:29
Might be mistaken, though...
geoffb crazy stuff 09:31
Aankhen`` Yup.
$17,000 dollars for one of those, apparently. 09:32
geoffb I remember many years ago, just after the 386 came out, there was a company that would sell you a complete gold-coated system, with hydraulic lifts for the case cover. 09:33
Aankhen`` Yowza.
geoffb They were aiming to sell directly to the CEO who wanted to have it on or next to his desk as a status item, but never actually use it. 09:34
Aankhen`` Hehe.
geoffb And they didn't really pull many punches in the marketing. It was pretty much "You know you want it. You've got the cash, here's the bling." Before bling meant anything, of course.
nothingmuch geoffb: re software raid: 09:35
the only scenario where HW raid is significantly faster than software raid is when there are mirrorred drives on the same bus
that way SW raid has to send the data as many times as there are drives, but a HW raid gets the data once, and then passes it to each drive later on 09:36
geoffb nothingmuch, I assume that's specific to PC chipset RAID?
nothingmuch uh, say again? 09:37
geoffb My understanding was that if you drop a grand or two on "real" HW raid, it just wins hands down. But most of the time, that's not what people are using.
nothingmuch oh
i'm talking in theory
geoffb They have what their chipset vendor calls HW raid.
ah, gotcha. 09:38
nothingmuch sw raid and hardware raid do the same thing
it's just where is it done
geoffb is just OT boy tonight . . .
nothingmuch sw raid is potentially much faster since it probably has a more expensive (and faster) processor and bus 09:39
geoffb True . . . though in the super-high-end case, the CPU gets to stay pretty damn idle.
nothingmuch to do the pairty checks, CRCs, data transfers, and so on
geoffb nod
nothingmuch now, super high end cases just have the same (or good enough) quality stuff packed behind a single interface
the CPU treats it as one physical disk
geoffb My rule of thumb is: If you can drop 5 digits on NAS or a FC enclosure, great. Otherwise don't bother.
nothingmuch right 09:40
geoffb nothingmuch, nodnod
sadly, I am not yet rich enough to have a nice NAS box at home. :-)
nothingmuch would be worried about the electric bill too 09:41
geoffb heh
nothingmuch is very happy with two drives, 80, and 120
LVM on top of that
and sw raid on top of LVM
geoffb actually, my biggest problem in this office is not the electric bill (which does suck), but rather the overheating.
nothingmuch so i have stripping for the crap data, like movies (not that I download any, uh...)
geoffb When it's hot outside, it gets toasty in here.
nothingmuch and for home dirs, /var, and so forth i have mirrorred raid
geoffb And $spouse hates it when I turn on the AC to cool the office, thereby leaving the office below 80 and the rest of the house below 70. 09:42
nothingmuch heh 09:43
geoffb And adding a big pile to the electric bill, to boot. :-)
I definitely fear the heat that the new box is going to cast off.
nothingmuch geoffb: then why not let the boxes breathe outside air?
geoffb Um . . . because it's even hotter outside during August -> October? 09:44
nothingmuch the boxes can handle it.
but the people in the house might not =) 09:45
geoffb heh
nothingmuch wow.... osx's launch agent thingies are tres cool 09:46
it's like inetd + inittabs + gentoo rc system
all rolled into one
geoffb Oh, since I've got you on the line, nm: any chance of updates to harrorth any time soon? I'm passing time reading docs on Forth and Joy waiting. :-)
nothingmuch geoffb: we're finishing the rennovation any day now 09:47
geoffb still using 10.3 on the house OS X box . . .
nothingmuch then I should have more free time
geoffb cool.
nothingmuch i also want to cut back on work hours a bit
geoffb Good on ya!
nothingmuch and since summer vacation schedule is now being phased out, that should be easy too
that way I can get back in shape, since I can bike when it's still day 09:48
geoffb ?
nothingmuch and then i'll have less fatigue
which means less TV
and more interesting stuff
geoffb nodnod
I know just how that goes
nothingmuch the dust and the cleaning and the hours are really getting to me =(
geoffb I'll bet
toddler + infant hours are getting to me . . . *yawn* 09:49
nothingmuch try waking up before toddler
it's hard to start, but it makes sense once you get the habit
geoffb That used to work great. And then the infant was born. 09:50
nothingmuch oh, i see
what are ages of said infant and toddler?
geoffb Baby is not yet sleeping more than 3 hours at a time. And the 3 hour blocks occur totally randomly, no way to know that it won't be only a 1.5 hour block
nothingmuch eep 09:51
geoffb 2 1/2 weeks and 2 1/4 years
gaal hello.
nothingmuch gaal: hola
geoffb hola
nothingmuch m19s28.vlinux.de/cgi-bin/pugs-smokeserv.pl
gaal how is everybody?
nothingmuch is psychologically tired 09:52
geoffb is tired and rambling, and filling the channel with OT crap
nm, do you have kids?
nothingmuch geoffb: still am a kid
geoffb: i do have siblings
geoffb ah
gaal is back from a vacation. naturally i need another one :)
nothingmuch heh 09:53
got pictures?
gaal soon!
nothingmuch hurrah
geoffb Out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried to figure out why GHC eats so much memory compiling pugs? I mean, what particular constructs might be triggering poor memory behavior, or if any Haskell program of its size would do the same? 10:01
broquaint Scary autrijus voodoo I would imagine. 10:03
geoffb Sure, I'm just wondering if there is some low-hanging fruit to be picked 10:06
gaal geoffb, probably #haskell will know, but i bet ghc itself takes oodles of RAM as well. 10:07
geoffb perhaps I will ask there when I have the brain power to understand the answer. :-) 10:09
keithalexander hi, I am trying to learn to use perl cgi but I get Forbidden 11:06
You don't have permission to access /~keithalexander/first.cgi on this server. Can someone show me the error of my ways?
nothingmuch chmod a+x ~keithalexander/first.cgi 11:09
but this channel is not concerned with apache or CGI
or even the perl you are probably running
this is for perl 6 development and discussion
keithalexander okay, sorry, that's true
nothingmuch as for cgi's not being executed - that has to do with the setup that the server is doing
not with perl
you should ask your system administrator for help if setting execute permissions is not enough
only they can really know what's really stopping it from working, we can only make educated guesses 11:10
keithalexander yes, sorry
nothingmuch no sweat =)
broquaint What's a good linux mp3 player? XMMS 1.2.10 crashes after 30 mins or so of radio streaming :/
nothingmuch the problem eappears to be that the cgi script is set with permissions that don't allow the server to execute it
broquaint curses irssi and it's wacky interface 11:11
nothingmuch irssi++
broquaint irssi-- # Makes me look stupid, which is meant to be a *state secret*.
nothingmuch =)
nothingmuch learns not to keep half empty turkish coffee glasses on his desk for the 4th time this week 11:12
broquaint Although I'll still suggestions on decent linux mp3 players ...
nothingmuch used mplayer on osx for a while
broquaint Thanks, nothingmuch :) 11:13
gaal broquaint, mpd is great. 11:15
musicd it's sometimes called
it's client-server
pick your client (cli, curses, x11) 11:16
works great with large collections
doesn't shut down music when you exit x
broquaint Cool stuff, thanks, gaal :)
Sounds smart.
gaal np :)
autrijus greetings :) 11:46
gaal hello autrijus-san!
autrijus heya gaal
how's life? 11:47
gaal landed a few hours ago :)
autrijus geoffb: ram consumption on Pugs.Run is due to precompiled prelude
gaal how're you? how's pugs? haven't backlogged yet (scared to :) 11:48
autrijus geoffb: otherwise, it's just GHC -O is known to be slowish. "make unoptimised" will nix that
but I don't think there's easy low hangingness
gaal: I'm also still backlogging :) but see my journal for the first half
tonight I'll post the other half
gaal nothingmuch, ping 12:08
nothingmuch =074xpong 12:47
gaal: pong
gaal pics up
nothingmuch url me
gaal gaal.livejournal.com 12:48
nothingmuch yummy: pics.livejournal.com/gaal/pic/000564k1/g5 12:50
gaal nice madrase, yes
nothingmuch pics.livejournal.com/gaal/pic/0000d9et/g3 =)
gaal there's a story behind that one, heh, but i wonder if i should tell it here :) 12:51
nothingmuch tell tell
gaal well, we went to this nice lake 2 hours from Trabzon called Uzun Gol 12:52
(Goel, heh.)
nothingmuch sounds like tolkenish names =) 12:53
gaal and my friend forgot the camera and his cell phone on a rock
Turkish is a very interesting language btw - must be cool to learn it
so anyway - we discovered the loss only after the drive back 12:54
nothingmuch ooh: pics.livejournal.com/gaal/pic/000226zx/g4
gaal and tried calling the phone several times, but got no answer
so the day later we hopped on the bus again and looked for it with no luck
that's the sweetest yayla we found 12:55
nothingmuch yayla?
gaal so just before giving up we tried calling one more time, and a guy answered in turkish, knew no english
a passerby near the public phone booth helped us communicate 12:56
he said sure, i can give you back your stuff but i'm not here right now
nothingmuch what's happenning here? pics.livejournal.com/gaal/pic/0002t0q8/g4
gaal he travelled two hours by car just to give it back
sunset 12:57
nothingmuch wow, that's nice
gaal slightly foggy weather
nothingmuch ah, that explains the fuzzyness
gaal yes, those pics are real nice for a pretty simple camera! (entry level digital kodak, ~3mp) 12:58
nothingmuch would have been mui embarraced
i love this kind of scenery: pics.livejournal.com/gaal/pic/0003s422/g4
gaal by what, the camera guy or the foggy picture? :)
nothingmuch the foggy picture 12:59
this looks like a collage: pics.livejournal.com/gaal/pic/0003zqzd/g4
gaal well, let me know when you decide to go :)
nothingmuch very cute =)
gaal that's the highest summit in the background in that one 13:00
nothingmuch gaal: so how did you go? 13:02
like, what route
with what vehicles, or lack thereof
gaal the most significant parts were by foot, about ten days
i'll tell you when i write about it :) 13:03
nothingmuch =) 13:04
ugh... /me has gotten no work done today... =(
given $brain.state { when Stuck { $perl6_channel.complain } } 13:06
Subject: Shocking family pics and video! 13:39
Daughter d1dn?t want her daddy t0 be her Ist man, but d@d @lways <acy></acy>gets what he wants, even if he has to take it by force?nobody asked <acu></acu>for her opinion?<BR> 13:40
stevan hola gaal 13:43
gaal stevan!
nothingmuch moose!
stevan are you the guy with no hair?
gaal wapiti!
one of them :)
stevan looks like a great trip
nice scenary
gaal wonderful actually 13:44
very nice people in the mountains too
excuse me as i will now find something to eat 13:45
svnbot6 r6624 | fglock++ | * perl5/ Array,Hash - added pairs,kv,keys,values 14:08
stevan fglock: FYI - I added multi-methods to the MM 2.0 using Class::Multimethod::Pure 14:12
fglock stevan: how is it doing? can I use it for Code? 14:15
svnbot6 r6625 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - Hash: keys, values, kv, pairs 14:32
r6625 | fglock++ | - Array: keys, values -- but no kv, pairs
r6626 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - Array::zip(), Array::kv() 14:38
stevan fglock: it is slow, but seems to be working 14:40
fglock: take a look at t/08_multi_methods.t 14:41
fglock I'm reading it :) 14:42
do you think I can start using MM2?
stevan fglock: I would like to get more tests for it first 14:43
my $work project just launched today,.. so I should have more tuits very soon 14:44
svnbot6 r6627 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - add support for printing unboxed values 15:08
r6628 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - stringification checks for AUTOLOADed str() 15:14
15:19 Arathorn is now known as Aragone 15:28 wilx` is now known as wilx
svnbot6 r6629 | fglock++ | * perl5/ PIL-Run, etc. 15:33
r6629 | fglock++ | - Added support for unboxed Pair.key, Pair.value
r6629 | fglock++ | - Array.pair() passes some tests
r6630 | fglock++ | * perl5/Array - pairs() passes all tests
r6631 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - Array::pick() 15:45
winningsperm is there a perl equivalent to phpinfo() ? 16:18
wolverian is there a PHP equivalent for some_function_you_have_never_used()? 16:20
you might want #perl, not #perl6, too. :)
(or efnet #perlhelp, which can be sometimes helpful as well.)
jrussell hiya everyone. 16:37
does anyone know what File::Find find() returns?
autrijus nothing terribly useful. 16:39
probably undef in all cases
jrussell so what should i use if i want to see if "filename.txt" exists in a particular directory? 16:40
autrijus -e "/path/filename.txt"
jrussell i mean inside a code
autrijus my $exists = -e "/path/filename.txt"
jrussell oh right ... cheers matey. let me try that out
autrijus np. 16:41
geoffb (sortof) awake again 16:42
from backlog:
autrijus, yeah, I knew which phases were RAM killers (having watched top in horror during quite a few builds) -- I just don't understand why the bad phases (esp. PCP and link) are that bad. 16:43
autrijus PCP is because it's huge 16:44
geoffb I'll take your word for it that there is no low-hanging fruit though, and just pine for my new box until the parts arrive
svnbot6 r6632 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - implemented lazy Array::sum
r6632 | fglock++ | (1,2,3,100..100000).sum = 5000045056
geoffb (and I manage to get time to assemble them)
autrijus it's 1.8M of source code
geoffb autrijus, sure, but should 1.8M of source result in hundreds of times that much RAM during compile? 16:45
It's like GHC is not able to GC or something
autrijus another thought is to force -O0 on that file.
geoffb Oh, this is *with* -O0
wilx Heh.
1.8M of source code in one file? 16:46
jrussell oh cheers autrijus! it worked!
geoffb I've never been able to compile an optimized build
autrijus wilx: it's Prelude.pm compiled to haskell form
geoffb wilx, autogenerated so to speak
wilx That _is_ humungous.
jrussell hmm .. is there an elegant way in perl to remove a file instead of using `rm filename` 16:51
wolverian perldoc -f unlink
autrijus and #perl :)
jrussell ahhh thank you! 16:52
geoffb In the last couple days, there has been a huge increase in people asking #perl questions here . . . . 16:54
svnbot6 r6633 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 - porting some tests from 1.0 17:02
r6634 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - fixed Ref constructor, stringification 17:08