6.2.10 released! xrl.us/hxnb | geoffb's column (/. ed): xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | www.geeksunite.net
Set by autrijus on 10 October 2005.
autrijus whew :) 00:50
rep ahhh i hate visas/work authorizations.
svnbot6 r7585 | autrijus++ | * "Larry was a mariner", after first SEE session:
r7585 | autrijus++ | Stanza 1&2 done, 3..6 generally reviewed, still half to go.
autrijus rep: indeed :/ most unpredictable and painful
geoffb Welcome back, autrijus 00:51
autrijus thanks. wordsmithing is fun, although very demanding
geoffb Don't I know it! 00:52
autrijus praises allison for general poetic cluefulness
svnbot6 r7586 | autrijus++ | * larry_mariner.txt: add pronounciation hint for \n+ and \w+ 00:56
r7587 | autrijus++ | * larry_mariner.txt: reformat into 4-line paragraphs. 01:02
r7587 | autrijus++ | that's it for today for me...
r7588 | autrijus++ | * larry_mariner.txt: small trivial general typo fix. 01:08
stevan autrijus: I think I am going to give up on the class methods thread 01:15
I think i have made my point, which is that there is always another way, which is many times better
autrijus ...and more general to boot 01:16
or at least can be made so.
stevan yes
but cultural pressures are such that it should be done
I will add it into the metamodel in the next few days 01:17
autrijus so it would be done. *nod*
stevan I think all told, it will be about 15 lines of code :)
autrijus at least this thread did not fizzle and went nowhere like others.
and raised clear points for once :)
stevan yes, I am probably going to bring up some of larrys subpoints again 01:18
autrijus cool
stevan in particular the "autogenerated class accessors are submethods"
and I wanna push the class-role interchange-ability
autrijus i.e. class accessors don't inherit?
stevan class attribute accessors 01:19
because the state they access if not inherited
autrijus yeah
stevan if you want them to inherit,.. write em yourself
:)
autrijus right, they are normal lexicals etc
exactly
stevan yup
autrijus yeah, point.
stevan ok, time for me to get back to building shelves
adios & 01:20
autrijus adios!
adamc00: hi :) 01:26
wolverian what a thrill it is to use >>= to get rid of a <-
now I think I will sleep :) cheers
rep hehe
night
autrijus beware of the point-less-wock, my son! the dots that bite, the parens that catch! :) 01:27
geoffb Oh, stevan, fyi, the -Ofun blog broke 1000 . . . thanks for hiring that offshort team! 01:49
autrijus clickfarm++ 01:52
obra clickfarm?
autrijus obra: stevan joked about turning his company's horde(?) of resources to clicking geoffb's -Ofun blog 01:53
so his rank can improve
rep heh
obra nice 01:54
. o O { Slashdot didn't }
?
geoffb
.oO( Do people still spend money on clickfarming? )
obra, /. made a big difference. 01:55
However, either A) the number of people who care about -Ofun are small (I doubt it), B) O'Reilly's hit counters suck (I doubt that, since that's how online journalism makes money), or C) the caching infrastructure of the internet actually works. 01:56
s/internet/web/
autrijus "I thought the Internet is just a website?" 01:58
</troll>
geoffb autrijus, :-P 02:02
I have had to deal with way too many "The internet is broken!" calls 02:03
None of which were technically correct. ;-)
autrijus sure, otherwise you'd be working in CERT :) 02:04
geoffb Now there's a depressing job . . .
putter stevan: re class attributes, given class C{ our $x; class C::D{ mumble }} , is $x visible in mumble? if no, what about for anon classes? 02:37
re the api in 25_example_People_Employee.t, if our $.pop; is accessed by ->class::pop(), what about our @.pop; ? 02:41
stevan: is $pkg->FETCH('{}') a public api? if not, is there an official way to check whether a name occurs in %:namespace? 02:52
03:02 khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth
putter steven: (just in case you backlog), any suggestions on doing Int.new(42) and such? Ie, I'd like a positional rather than a named constructor, to get away from the clutter of Int->new('$.unboxed'=>42). But it will be very inner-loopy, so I hesitate to just slap in a simple_new() method. any thoughts? 03:18
s/clutter/clutter and abstraction busting/ 03:19
obviously not just Int, but Bit/Bool, etc too. 03:20
03:31
anyone: what is undef? I would have thought is was an instance of a class Undef. it's not a singleton, as one can do "undef but dances_jigs". but Undef isnt listed in S06. 03:32
hmm, Rat isnt on svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/design/syn/S06.pod Rational-ity gone? 04:09
mrborisguy this may be more of a Parrot question than a Perl6, but help me out here... 04:24
will it be possible for me to write some sort of function/sub in another language, say a functional one that runs on parrot
and then use it in a Perl6 script?
I guess, kinda meaning make a library out of some other language that I can use in p6 04:27
PerlJam mrborisguy: yes, there will be ways to do that. 04:31
That's one of the prime benefits of parrot.
Languages that target parrot (python, php, etc) suddenly get access to CPAN 04:32
mrborisguy ah, I wasn't sure if Arrays had to be implimented the exact way, or something 04:38
you know, something crazy like that 04:39
putter & 05:23
Khisanth PerlJam: benefit to who? :) 05:30
06:33 khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth
spinclad autrijus: in haskell.xul, s/Fibbonaci/Fibonacci/ 07:34
coral i was thinking of perl6 when i read web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~erwig/pap..._JFP01.pdf 07:39
thought it might be interesting to y'all
gaal print (greet greet), that's meant to be an error? 08:17
eric256, ping 08:40
"tall" and "camel" hardly rhyme... 08:44
ods15 gaal: ! you're online! 10:11
you should be fasting!
gaal i should? 10:32
what i should be doing is riding around town, but i'm feeling sort of lazy today. 10:33
svnbot6 r7589 | scook0++ | * Simple parse tests for various sub-call forms 10:36
r7589 | scook0++ | (of these, only `succ .(1+2) * 30` is broken currently)
r7590 | gaal++ | minor monadic golfage 10:48
ods15 :) 10:49
autrijus gaal: can I s/liftM/fmap/ ? 10:58
wolverian argh, my university apparently requires me to use Java for most programming courses. this sucks. 10:59
autrijus besides even more golfing, fmap fits my brain much better...
gaal autrijus: sure :)
scook0 autrijus: I agree, I find fmap easier to read than liftM for some reason...
autrijus scook0: because it's describe things more denotationally 11:00
than operationally, I guess
scook0 yeah
liftM transforms the function, then applies it
fmap applies the function over the argument
autrijus yup
gaal I don't have a deep understanding of this stuff yet. I'm using golf as a method of learning.
autrijus praises functors and natural transformations 11:01
scook0 I also can't stand flip -- I much prefer reverse sections
autrijus gaal: cool :)
scook0 functional golf can be fun
especially when the idea is to make it *easier* to read :)
gaal I just knew that a case returning Nothing -> Nothing *had* to be golfed :) 11:02
autrijus yup :)
when I'm preparing the slides... it occured to me that most of the perculiar features in hs is there just so we can fearlessly golf^Wrefactor things, without putting the entire program logic into one's head 11:05
aka the power of Reason -- like in the snow crash novel -- www.marstar.ca/images/Automatics/M2HB/M2-M63.jpg 11:06
gaal autrijus: Reason was a Gatling gun 11:07
IIRC
autrijus really. hm
you are probably right... I misrecalled
something like this then www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfi...-blk1b.gif 11:08
gaal www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/Gau8a_a.jpg
autrijus wow, that's good
gaal it features strong typing, too, in a way. 11:09
you definitely know when you're at the wrong end of this fellow.
autrijus and static, too
if you stay at the right end you'll probably remain there
gaal yes, it's very haskellish to call something static when it fires fifty rounds a second. 11:11
autrijus :D
autrijus goes lifting -- I mean fmaping -- this picture into the talk 11:12
gaal you encounter the most ridiculous things when browsing wikipedia: 11:14
Juerd I'm going to sell my old laptop
gaal # en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-303
Juerd This sucks :)
gaal how can a phalanx gun work in space?
Juerd I haven't touched it in weeks, but I'm using it now to test it
And I don't want it gone :) 11:15
gaal Juerd: you need the $$$?
Juerd Yes
Well, I don't exactly really *need* it
I could do without
But it'd be a hell of a lot more comfortable with the extra cash :)
gaal albeit laptopless.
Juerd I have a new laptop 11:16
gaal ah :)
svnbot6 r7591 | autrijus++ | * change liftM to fmap for more golfing value...
Juerd I wonder what the old one is still worth
gaal praises Hoogle
scook0 Hoogle is nice 11:20
though I wish it had GHC functions as well 11:21
svnbot6 r7592 | autrijus++ | * somehow syck wants to include <config.h>, but I suspect
r7592 | autrijus++ | it's not the same config.h as GHC, and hence causing
r7592 | autrijus++ | putter's failure on x86_64. To fix this properly would
r7592 | autrijus++ | be to supply Syck's config detection as part of our
r7592 | autrijus++ | Makefile.PL / configure process, but here is a bandaid...
gaal scook0: any idea what it would take to add them? 11:25
scook0 gaal: no, sadly... 11:26
wolverian Juerd, what kind of a laptop is that you're selling? 11:33
Juerd wolverian: IBM R40 11:36
wolverian Juerd, do you have a buyer already?
Juerd wolverian: centrino, 1.3 GHz, 768 MB, 40 GB, 15", 802.11b, 10/100, ultranav
No
One thing is broken: the nic. I have a xircom realport to replace the functionality 11:37
(Because dongles suck.)
wolverian ah.
what OS are you running on it?
Juerd I've always used linux on it 11:38
wolverian right. how much are you asking for it?
Juerd But it'll be sold with the factory default installation, if the buyer wants that
wolverian or are you going to put it out for auction?
Juerd I haven't investigated price options yet 11:39
I'd like to get 650 for it, and I think that's reasonable, but I'll have to see ebay and such first to see if it's a good price
wolverian I see R40E (which is a different setup) being sold at 600e to 900e
Juerd -e is bad.
wolverian okay.
no .11g? 11:40
argh, have to go!
Juerd no g
Bye 11:41
c0nspiracy if (isDA) { 11:44
populateProfileGroupList();
Juerd
.oO( isNYET )
c0nspiracy sorry
Juerd hm?
c0nspiracy hit paste by accident 11:45
scook0 Juerd: *groan*
Juerd Why groanst thou?
scook0 Juerd: thy pun doth deserve it so 11:48
11:49 rafl_ is now known as rafl
Juerd :) 11:50
svnbot6 r7593 | scook0++ | * Can't let gaal & autrijus have all the golfing fun :) 11:57
Juerd We have a copier and toothpaste 12:57
xerox Ciao! 12:58
svnbot6 r7594 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Parser: Unbreak the build (3-char patch). 13:09
r7594 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Run: Added a comment: "If you change the name or contents of
r7594 | iblech++ | $?PUGS_BACKEND, be sure to update all t/ and perl5/{PIL2JS,PIL-Run} as well."
r7594 | iblech++ | * t/syntax/parsing_sub_calls.t: skip test under PIL2JS and PIL-Run (needs eval()).
r7594 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
gaal yay! I just managed my first pugs build+smoke with coLinux, and it's not significantly slower than straight win32! 13:12
xerox gaal++ :D 13:13
gaal coLinux++ :)
svnbot6 r7595 | scook0++ | * More lambda-golf: `when not` => `unless` 13:15
r7596 | iblech++ | * Moved t/syntax/parsing_* to new dir t/syntax/parsing/. 13:39
r7596 | iblech++ | * Merged t/syntax/string_parsing.t into t/builtins/strings/string_interpolation.t.
r7596 | iblech++ | * Merged t/data_types/parse_hash_ref.t into t/var/autoref.t and added some more
r7596 | iblech++ | tests to it.
r7596 | iblech++ | * Renamed t/pugsbugs/parse-fail.t to t/pugsbugs/slow-parse-fail.t.
r7597 | iblech++ | * Moved the various *interpolation* tests into new dir t/syntax/interpolation/.
r7597 | iblech++ | * pugs::hack: Added entry for t/types/.
rafl OK, new pugs 6.2.10 packages at perlcabal.org/~rafl/debian/ - testers welcome. 13:40
svnbot6 r7598 | iblech++ | * examples/output/overloading, t/operators/adverbial_modifiers.t: Fixed 14:13
r7598 | iblech++ | expectations of .perlifications WRT (e.g.) "\t" now stringifying as "\t"
r7598 | iblech++ | (instead of '[literal tab here]').
clkao `/aw 14:15
rafl gaal: ping 14:18
nothingmuch autrijus: i think the haskell talk has slightly too much syntax 14:35
eric256 but thats a slick interface 14:36
nothingmuch for example, the fib = 0 : 1 [ x + y | (x, y) <- fib `zip` tail fib ] one
yeah, it is
that's a lot of syntax in one example
i think it's better illustrated using map, or even omitted
autrijus nothingmuch: but I wanted to show comprehensions
nothingmuch is there a really good reason to show them? 14:37
autrijus the aim of the talk is to enable someone who knows nothing about haskell to not freak out when reading code
nothingmuch hmm
autrijus uhm because they are used in production?
I'm not sure...
I don't use `zip` btw
I used a parallel comprehension
precisely to avoid zip
nothingmuch it's just that their syntax is sooooo dense for imperative heads
oh, i see
luqui maybe have a slide that introduces comprehension before the infinite fibo 14:38
autrijus 0 : 1 : [ x+y | x <- fib | y <- tail fib ]
nothingmuch yeah, that's more readable than the zip one
hmmm...
autrijus luqui: hm, think an simpler comprehension example?
nothingmuch since you mentioned you're really short on time I thought that was a good candidate for simplification
autrijus nod... 14:39
nothingmuch "type rocks, typing sucks" - please explain ;-)
luqui autrijus, in "people need more time to think about that", people refers to people on the list, I gathered
autrijus luqui: ahh ok.
luqui typing as in on a keyboard
autrijus nothingmuch: types are cool, but having to _type down_, as in keying in, sucks
wolverian autrijus++ # for knowing it's 0,1 not 1,1
nothingmuch ah
eric256 just a random question...since haskel cares about space..shouldn't the code be left aligned instead of centered? 14:40
autrijus nothingmuch: it's a -Opun
nothingmuch yeah
autrijus eric256: yes, see my journal
will be <pre> properly later
content first
eric256 ahh. yes ignore me
lol
autrijus eric256: never :)
nothingmuch "how type inferrence works" - i think an intermediate frame is in order 14:41
autrijus nothingmuch: my dilemma is such: I very much need to show concise example from killer apps to let audience get a feel of really high level symbolic power
nothingmuch (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a]
autrijus nothingmuch: but to even get a bit of feeling, you can't skim on the syntax and data types
nothingmuch (++) "Hello" :: [Char] -> [Char]
luqui autrijus, so just show the fixpoint combinator. heh, not. 14:42
nothingmuch can't you get more than 45 mins?
an hour and 15, or an hour and a half seems more adequate
autrijus luqui: you mean... y f = f (y f) ?
nothingmuch: right, but sadly no
luqui yes that one, but show it being used. except don't.
autrijus thank you :) 14:43
nothingmuch: re (++) "Hello", good point
luqui nothingmuch, that's a nice example
nothingmuch autrijus: i think the way inferrence works is pretty simple if you just say how:
it goes down the AST, and it makes assertions about the relations using links between things 14:44
and then it goes up the tree unifying the links
autrijus nothingmuch: help me explain what a AST is in two slides ;)
nothingmuch oh, right
nothingmuch kind of forgot he didn't know what that was till he came to pugsland 14:45
luqui yeah, and that's explaining it from an implementation perspective
autrijus nothingmuch: yeah... I made 3x more slides
and killed them all
all because I need to unlearn stuff continuously 14:46
nothingmuch autrijus: i think the example with 'half' and currying is too complicated, because it introduces infixing
i think you should do 'double = 2 *' instead
luqui from a user perspective, you just say "it looks at your code, and figures out what you should have typed if you were giving explicit annotations"
nothingmuch it really looks like there is a missing argument
and do it with ghci
:t *
:t 2 *
let double = 2 *
:t double
autrijus nothingmuch: point, fixed
nothingmuch doublt 5
luqui let double = (2 *)
eric256 acutaly i liked the currying examples
nothingmuch eric256: it's a very nice example because infix syntax makes currying even cooler in haskell 14:47
autrijus eric256: right, nothingmuch is just saying we should just show curry to the left
as curry to the right is something peripheral (although extremely handy)
nothingmuch do you get into infix syntax?
eric256 and i just learned a minute bit of haskel, but the slides flowed pretty well even without the assumed audio
luqui nothingmuch, you mean section syntax?
nothingmuch in the 'uc' example please don't forget to mention that toUpper is for chars, not like perl heads would expect 14:48
autrijus nothingmuch: eg this?
chr `map` [79,75] ? "OK"
nothingmuch hmm
autrijus nothingmuch: I had it, then decides it's peripheral as well
takahashi is really frustrating in a way because you end up deleting far more than you write ;)
nothingmuch forget ``, just note that 'x + y' is the same as '(+) x y' 14:49
autrijus but it's worth it... it's like ninjatsu training or something
PerlJam autrijus: isn't that the normal way of things?
autrijus PerlJam: no, the MJD/Judo way never delete things
they get converted to "digression slides", "pretty pictures" and "bonus sections in handout"
Jooon autrijus: did you see this presentation www.identity20.com/media/OSCON2005/ ? 14:50
PerlJam interesting. I guess I've always done it the takahashi way then :)
nothingmuch didn't know you could invent circumfix datatype syntax
autrijus nothingmuch: it's useful
luqui autrijus, you can?
autrijus data Exp = Var :-> Exp 14:51
luqui oh.. that's, um, infix
autrijus oh, er, sorry
nothingmuch: you can't; it's prelude priviledge
nothingmuch ah
luqui but the infix constructors are quite nice 14:52
autrijus but constructors that start with : are infix
nothingmuch autrijus: the XUL stuff is very cool
autrijus and the reason for that is just generalizing the ":" constructor
nothingmuch: yes, way cooler than s5
esp. because you can link to it!
Jooon: no, ooh, I'll get to waste more time
nothingmuch di we have KWID in JS?
autrijus probably not though should be easy to kludge and halfbaked version 14:53
eric256: thanks for the positive review :D
nothingmuch what about Textile? 14:54
autrijus possible... or markdown
Javascript is evidently the new Ruby
because _all_ it has is eigenclasses! ;) 14:55
Jooon autrijus: 15 minutes, very tight presentation, using his slides as subtitles to his talk. with pictures used as pictograms almost. the content of the presentation was pretty basic stuff, but it was very fun to see it "performed"
autrijus Jooon: yeah, I'm trying to follow that idea. downloading
so, in the function section in my talk. 14:56
I can perhaps introduce three more concepts
with max "don't freak out when you see this" value
should I show lambda functions?
eric256 i would argue no. 14:57
autrijus the Show and Num classes?
eric256 although i understand them immediatly they arn't easy to read for the first 20 times. ;)
autrijus explaining (gasp) "IO a" and RealWorld? 14:58
how people write "for" loops using recursion?
folding? (ugh)
recursive datatypes aka Tree?
nothingmuch i argue yes
lambda functions help tie things together 14:59
foo x = x + 2
foo = \x -> x + 2
tell them it's almost the same
autrijus except for the monomorphic restriction
eric256 nothingmuch sure. but if this is just a "begging haskell" then that is something they can pickup when they dive in for real
autrijus but I'm not going to say that ;)
nothingmuch eric256: the issue is that since every symbol is a value
and some values are functions, while others are data types 15:00
when the listener gets that, things become easier
eric256 true
my big problem was that the \x notation kept yelling reference in my head
nothingmuch 'map' is a value
eric256 and i lost track of the scope of x
nothingmuch it's value is '\fun list -> ...'
this helps realize how currying works
autrijus nothingmuch: I can show it in the desugaring slide 15:01
nothingmuch in that \f x -> f + y is really \x -> \x -> f + x'
eep, i can't type at all
autrijus perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/haskell.xul?page=48
nothingmuch i wish safari had XUL
that's a nice example 15:03
autrijus think I can use the proper greek for \ ?
eric256 that example looks good
autrijus I'll explain it will be written as \ of course
nothingmuch yes
autrijus cool 15:04
nothingmuch do you show how 'foo x y = ...' is desugared into single arg functions for currying goodness?
eric256 the example my tutorial used had continuations + folding + \ .....scared the crap out of me...so i was a little gun shy with \ ;)
autrijus eric256: ah. :) so the \x -> case ... is probably fine with out
nothingmuch eric256: \x -> ... is fun with map
autrijus as a desugar with perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/haskell.xul?page=47
nothingmuch map (\x -> ...) list
once you start using that you are no longer afraid 15:05
eric256 yea i liked those to going together.
nothingmuch autrijus: does the XUL package thingy have key bindings? 15:06
hah! www.haskell.org/hawiki/AntiBuddha 15:07
luqui wow, that's a little... hostile 15:08
eric256 i thought it was pretty funny 15:10
lol
nothingmuch luqui: i'm guessing that whoever made a perl binding has some sympathy for perl
luqui yeah... 15:11
oh, I finished the backend to my L::AG rewrite 15:12
now all that's left is syntax and error checking (the latter of those is the one that scares me)
nothingmuch luqui: at least i gave you a few tests to decide on 15:13
luqui true, thanks :-)
eric256 's database slave is now only 124k seconds behind and closing fast. ;) 15:15
luqui lazy stuff is really hard to debug...
nothingmuch luqui: true
gaal am i imagining things, or is the takahashi-xul javascript about as big as the js runcore? :) 15:21
autrijus Jooon: aha, another lessig style user 15:22
Jooon: it's very a very well presented talk. 15:23
Jooon++ # thanks for the link... I get to rethink about the b/w vs w/b color issue
gaal: probably you are right :)
nothingmuch: yes. pgup/down 15:30
nothingmuch ah
gaal hee, that's a video clip, not a talk!
autrijus I can see code better for white on black 15:31
so naturally my slides are made like that 15:32
gaal that == the Dick H talk, not yours
autrijus yup
but all other takahashi users -- dickh included -- uses black on white
theorbtwo OTOH, the viewing conditions are somewhat different with a big projector vs your laptop.
autrijus maybe I'm missing something important.
theorbtwo: true.
15:36 stevan_ is now known as stevan
xerox autrijus: woot, news on the takahashi XUL app? 15:37
autrijus xerox: thanks to dickh I changed fonts, added some function examples, about to add something more 15:38
xerox: 16:56 < autrijus> I can perhaps introduce three more concepts 15:39
16:56 < autrijus> with max "don't freak out when you see this" value
suggestions?
xerox Cool. I'll check it afterwards :D
autrijus ok :)
xerox What are you referring about, exactly?
gaal comonads! *duck*
xerox Hmm, they are obscure.
Composable continuations, I'd say! 15:40
gaal zygomorphisms?
xerox Dunno really!
nothingmuch wow, that's a well prepared talk
xerox nothingmuch: url?
nothingmuch xerox: /lastlog Jooon 15:41
gaal interesting. autrijus, remember brad who was here when we rolled out '.10? 15:43
he's the guy behind openid.net
which turns out to be pertinent to the dickh talk
xerox gaal: is too much to ask for an explanation of 'zygomorphisms'?
autrijus gaal: ah. nod
gaal it is if you want to ask me about it :)
xerox :( 15:44
gaal just one of the obscure terms from wrong end of the the Evolution page
s/wrong/far/
autrijus lol
Juerd Opinions please 15:45
autrijus I like the "tenured prof" one
Juerd A black t-shirt, white text on front:
autrijus fac n = product [1..n]
Juerd s:g/5/6/;
gaal Which reminds me of Analytic and Algebraic Topology of Locally Euclidean Metrization
of Infinitely Differentiable Riemannian Manifold
autrijus Juerd: good idea.
gaal (Bozhe moi!)
Juerd Think it'll sell?
xerox Later! 15:46
autrijus the golfer in me immediately suggests tr///
;)
Juerd I have to have 10 made to get normal prices
autrijus: Except Perl 6 tr is no longer as consise
concise
And no longer tr/// :)
autrijus y/// neither, yeah
rafl Hey gaal. Please test the new pugs package from perlcabal.org/~rafl/debian/ - I think those will be uploaded if you don't find something bad.
gaal rafl: sure! 15:47
autrijus how sad. many a tournaments were won with y///... </offtopic>
Juerd: so what's this for?
I mean, the audience
15:48 typester is now known as sleepster
rafl gaal: It's the biggest package I maintain ATM (48k diff between upstream and debian version). Some testers make that easier. 15:48
theorbtwo Hmm... I have an idea, now that I am about to leave, and would like to be able to backlog when I get back to find out what you guys think of it. 15:49
autrijus theorbtwo: do tell
gaal rafl: okay. if you have any things in particular you want me to look at, please tell
theorbtwo The idea is a specialized search engine of things @Larry and $Larry say on perl6.*.
Juerd autrijus: Perl people 15:50
theorbtwo ...hopefully with the ability to annotate to "superseeded by", "superseeded in part by", etc.
Juerd It's a shirt I'd like to have
But to have it made economically, I need 9 others :)
Jooon rafl: I was trying to see why I couldn't get that with apt. can you update Packages.gz?
rafl gaal: Working backends (JS prelude should only be generated once, then it should simply work), ghc-pkg describe Pugs should show something useful. use perl5:Foo should work. 15:51
autrijus Juerd: are you going to any conferences in the next year? maybe I can get a bunch made for the Winter 2005 edition of pugscode cafepress and hand you one for free 15:52
rafl Jooon: No. The Packages.gz file was only there so I could use pbuilder on perlcabal.org with an unofficial package (Test::Tap::* wasn't in Debian yet at this time). I think I'll remove the Packages.gz now.
Jooon: You should be able to get it using apt from any Debian mirror soon.
Jooon ok
rafl Jooon: On the given URL there are only packages for testing from time to time. They might be broken at any point. 15:53
gaal hmmm, i wonder why gpm won't work in colinux
Juerd autrijus: I'm going to the post-oscon meeting next week
rafl What's colinux?
Juerd autrijus: (amsterdam.pm)
autrijus: IIRC, cafepress doesn't do white on black
gaal rafl: run linux as a win32 process. really nice. fast. 15:54
autrijus Juerd: really. hm
Juerd autrijus: It looks very cryptic, and I think white on black adds to that
Or lime on black
autrijus ah. nod
amsterdam.pm is probably strong/geeky enough to support that :)
gaal autrijus: dickh uses b on w to great effect in his talk. for the negative things :) 15:55
autrijus gaal: yes. maye I can use it for section headings
not sure.
Juerd autrijus: Could you try and find out if cafepress prints on black?
It's possible they changed things
rafl gaal: Hrm.. I still prefer now running Windows. As a process or not. :-) 15:56
Juerd I have to go home now
Later
afk
rafl Bye Jooon
Err, Bye Juerd
Jooon bye bye :)
gaal rafl: me too, but this machine is nominally for games
and i hate rebooting, it turns out, even worse than i hate running a full-screen putty.
autrijus Juerd: only green/yellow/pink. 15:57
rafl gaal: Hey, there's netcat and blobwars and viruskiller and frozen-bubble and planet-pengiun-racer and ... :-) 15:58
autrijus bbiab to...
s/to/too/
rafl gaal: Do you test the packages on that win32-linux-thingy?
gaal netcat as a game is a nice idea :)
rafl: today's the first time i got pugs to compile there
well, just because only today i got the networking to work 15:59
my real linux box has insifficient ram for pugs hacking.
so far the only major gripe i have with it is that the console is *real* slow. but i should probably just putty to it. 16:00
rafl: so far so good on the packages. 16:01
eric256 is there a cleaner way to write $d = ($d+1) % 4; ??
rafl gaal: Well, you have an account on feather, do you? I think feathers hardware is sufficient. 16:02
gaal latency sucks :(
plus i don't want to test packaging on feather! :)
eric256 hmmm or more directly, i have an array of for values and i want to jump back to the first when i get to the last...any ideas?
eric256 has no latency issues with featehr 16:03
feather even
svnbot6 r7599 | eric256++ | Ported Spiral_Numbers code form perlmonks code snippets section. Just a rough conversion to get it working, not very different than the p5 version. 16:05
eric256 databases are now within 80k seconds of each other...so exciting. lol 16:11
gaal rafl: colinux:~> ghc-pkg describe Pugs
ghc-pkg: cannot find package Pugs
other than that, looking good. 16:12
rafl gaal: libghc6-pugs-dev installed? It's also built from the pugs source package.
gaal bbiab&
oh
is it there too?
rafl Seems so: perlcabal.org/~rafl/debian/libghc6-...1_i386.deb
gaal sec
looks like it's wokring, couple of Qs though 16:14
do we *want* to expose so many modules?
do we really depend on QuickCheck-1.0 ?
rafl gaal: Cabal says so. I won't mess up with cabal again. :-) 16:15
gaal i see a field hugs-options, no idea if this is some standard field but, well, we can't build on hugs :)
heh
okay, bbiab for real
(need a shower after B-day) 16:16
rafl autrijus: What do you think about what gaal said?
Juerd autrijus: Too bad 16:32
eric256 is there a way to make map modify the area it is maping on instead of a copy? i remember asking before but i forgot 16:35
map -> $x as rw { }; ??
?eval my @a = (1..5); @a.map -> $x as rw { $x++ }; @a;
evalbot_7599 Error: unexpected ">" or "-" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
eric256 ?eval my @a = (1..5); map @a-> $x as rw { $x++ }; @a; 16:36
evalbot_7599 Error: unexpected ">" or "-" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, ":", ",", postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
eric256 i guess by that point is should just use a for loop. makes more sense anyway
gaal you want 'is rw' 16:39
does in-place map work now?
eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); .= as(" %2d") for @s;
evalbot_7599 Error: unexpected "=" or "." expecting ";", statements or end of input
gaal rehi btw
eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); $_ .= as(" %2d") for @s;
evalbot_7599 undef
eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); $_ .= as(" %2d") for @s; @s
evalbot_7599 [" 1", " 2", " 3", " 4", " 5"]
eric256 shouldn't i be able to drop the $_ ? 16:40
?eval my @s = (1..5); for @s { .= as(" %2d") }; @s
evalbot_7599 Error: unexpected "=" or "f" expecting ";", statements or end of input reserved word
eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); for @s { $_ .= as(" %2d") }; @s 16:41
evalbot_7599 [" 1", " 2", " 3", " 4", " 5"]
eric256 did i imagine that i could drop $_ or is it a bug?
Limbic_Region eric256 - if implemented, you should be able to use hyper-operators there 16:43
or map
eric256 @a>>.as($frm); #would be nice
@a>>.=as($frm); 16:44
Limbic_Region I think you still need to assign though
@s = ....
but I haven't been keeping up so your guess is better than mine
eric256 lol
gaal how do i is rw on a map? @a.map $_ is rw { } ?? 16:45
gaal -> $_ is rw 16:46
Limbic_Region oh - map in a void context on purpose eh
eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); @s.map -> $_ is rw { $_++ ); 16:47
evalbot_7599 Error: unexpected ">" or "-" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); @s.map -> $_ is rw { $_++ };;
evalbot_7599 Error: unexpected ">" or "-" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
Limbic_Region ?eval my @s = 1..5; @s.map -> $_ is rw { $_ .= as("%2d") }; @s;
evalbot_7599 Error: unexpected ">" or "-" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
eric256 no pretty and working way to do it that i can find. ;(
Limbic_Region ?eval my @s = 1..5; @s.map -> $_ is rw { $_ .= as("%2d"); }; @s;
evalbot_7599 Error: unexpected ">" or "-" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
Limbic_Region *shrug*
eric256 settles for for @s { $_ .= as($format) }; for the time being 16:48
svnbot6 r7600 | eric256++ | examples\spiral_numbers.p6 - Some cleanup and reduction. 16:51
iblech eric256: See t/builtins/lists/mutating_listops.t; vanilla Pugs doesn't support mutating map. The syntax would be @array.map:{ $_ = ... } or, if you want to be explicit, @array.map(-> $_ is rw {...})
eric256 vanilla pugs? is there a chocolate version i can get my hands on ;) 16:53
iblech rafl: pong (you pinged my yesterday IIRC)
eric256 btw should the following eventualy work? .= as("%2d") for @a;
iblech eric256: vanilly pugs is the normal Haskell runcore, as supposed to pugs -BJS or pugs -BPerl5 (JavaScript/Perl 5 backend)
eric256 it doesn't currently like droping the $_...but i though that could be dropped before the . 16:54
ahh
iblech Not sure... I also seem to remember that dropping the $_ is allowed, but it feels kind of weird
eric256 yea i realy want an inplace map...sorta. @list.mutate:{ .as($frm) }; 16:55
iblech @list.map:{ $_ .= as($frm) } should work (and does in PIL2JS, module that .as is not yet implemented) 16:56
Limbic_Region IIRC, there was a hot debate regarding the meaning of . without a prefix as in $self or $_ or whatever that went unresolved
Yet another reason why following the list is so darn frustrating 16:57
PerlJam I believe it was resolved to .foo always means $_.foo
The the question became should $_ get $?SELF or not :) 16:58
eric256 ?eval my @a = (1..5); @a.map:{$_++}; @a;
evalbot_7600 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
iblech eric256: If you have Spidermonkey's bin/js available: pugs -BJS -e 'jspugs> :e my @a = (1..5); @a.map:{$_++}; say @a; 16:59
23456 17:00
err, pugs -BJS -e 'my @a = (1..5); @a.map:{$_++}; say @a'
works fine :)
food &
eric256 we need an eval bot that can use different backends. ;) 17:01
leo__ $ pugs -BJS -e 'my @a = (1..5); @a.map:{$_++}; say @a' 17:02
*** Precompiled Prelude doesn't exist yet; precompiling... 17:03
...
Couldn't open "/home/eric256/auto/pugs/perl5/PIL2JS/Prelude.js" for writing: Permission denied
# just a try ;-)
eric256 hmm. 17:04
leo__ the prelude should probably created in some $HOME/.pugs_temp
or handled with auto magic 17:05
eric256 well i'll set the auto script to build the Perlude.js automaticaly...if anyone has a trick on how to do that?
looks like just trying to use it works, but is there a better way?
looks like make install triggers it too../me waits to see 17:08
gaal oh, eric256, i remembered something 17:13
after autrijus mentioned the collaborative editing in his journal,
i got a hankering to try it out myself. 17:14
want to do the inlined source prelude thing together?
or did you lose interest once you started building on feather? ;-) 17:15
brother Shouldn't 'dante'.trans('abce-z'=>'ABCE-Z') return 'dANTE'? 17:18
eric256 well i got pugs compiling on windows now so its not so urgent
but i'd still love to help when i can
brother with Prelude from 6.2.9 it returns 'dante' and with Prelude.pm from svn it loops forever 17:19
pasteling "eric256" at 66.102.136.66 pasted "JS Error on Feather" (9 lines, 484B) at sial.org/pbot/13669 17:20
cognominal Takahashi++ # piro.sakura.ne.jp/xul/xul.html.en 17:22
gaal brother: it certainly shouldn't loop :) write a test? 17:23
iblech eric256: (back) hm, is /usr/bin/js missing on feather?
leo__: Yep. In the future, we'll probably need /var/cache/pugs/js/modules/Prelude.js with appropriate measures that no one can precompile a evil module and store it as Prelude.js 17:24
leo__: Meanwhile, you can use:
pugs -BJS --p6preludepc=Prelude.js --testpc=Test.js -e '...'
eric256 there is no js on feather 17:25
iblech brother: Probably the problem is because pairs are still magical -- i.e. "ABCE-Z" got passed to trans by name (by the name "abce-z"). We're trying to change the spec, see p6l thread "Sane (less insane) pair semantics" and t/syntax/pairs.t 17:26
gaal iblech: there's been some attempts at fixage in 6.2.10's trans. apparently they weren't enough :(
iblech eric256: Ah. So apt-get install spidermonkey-bin is needed
gaal: nod... 17:27
kolibrie Juerd: if you make those shirts, I'd buy one 17:29
brother iblech: I can see the problem in each implementation of Prelide.pm
the expand subfunction is malfunction in both cases 17:30
gaal: How do I write a test for some expression not looping in infinity?
iblech brother: Comment the actual test and add a fail "skipping hanging test" 17:32
brother: E.g.
skip "skipping hanging test"; # is foo(...), ...
gaal point. we need to add loop protection to the harness, but com to think of it that isn't portable :(
bbiab 17:34
eric256 iblech can you ping juerd and get him to install that? or maybe he'll see this convo.. ;) 17:35
brother ok 17:36
Juerd kolibrie: Good to know - thanks 17:48
iblech: spidermonkey is now installed on feather, including dev package 17:50
eric256 thanks Juerd 17:51
yea -BJS now works on feather 17:52
should the auto build on feather be doing make install as well?
autrijus you need root perm for that no? 17:54
eric256 well it wont let me install on my screen name...so probably 17:55
just wondering if that would make life easier....sometimes its a pain tracking down the right number of ../ ;)
if i prefix the build into my home directory would it install without root then?
autrijus mayyybe. 17:56
had not tried
eric256 lol
does prefix work now? the INSTALL file still says no
17:57 Lopo_ is now known as Lopo
autrijus rafl, gaal: we *want* to expose many modules. we don't really dep on QC -- but PIL does -- and eventually new runcore too. hugs-options is unused. 17:57
I toyed with the idea of only exposing Pugs.hs
but I reasoned it can't hurt to expose everything at this stage.
mdiep are namespaces in Perl6 flat, hierarchical, or unspecified?
autrijus eric256: try and find out :)
mdiep: hierarchical, specified, not implemented. 17:58
mdiep autrijus: thanks. :-)
autrijus :)
for specs see S10..S12 17:59
iblech Juerd: (back) cool, thanks :) 18:01
mdiep: And also see www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....uage/23019
eric256 ...anyone know a way to start mysql so that it can only be accessed from the shell? for backing up? 18:02
cm there's some safe startup flag IIRC.. 18:03
autrijus eric256: yes, set --bind-address=127.0.0.1 18:08
or something along that line
brother If I make a patch and some test cases for $string.trans, where do I send it to? 18:16
Limbic_Region do you have a commit bit brother? 18:20
and if not, what is your email address 18:21
brother nope, [email@hidden.address] 18:22
Limbic_Region sending you a commit bit
invitation will expire in 14 days so be sure to sign up and commit the patches/tests soon ;-) 18:23
are you using svn or svk?
brother svn
Limbic_Region ok - then I think it is svn add <file> 18:24
svn ci -m "message about why"
also - don't forget to update the AUTHORS file 18:25
if you need more assistance, don't hesitate to ask 18:26
brother I'll do
Limbic_Region and welcome aboard 18:27
brother - please confirm you received the email - last time I sent an invitation it got "stuck" or something 18:29
brother confirmed 18:34
Limbic_Region danke
Aankhen`` goes to sleep. 18:48
G'night.
eric256 hmmm can someone help me transfer files between two linux servers? 19:11
obra man scp;man rsync 19:12
eric256 thanks 19:13
thanks obra++ that made my day 19:16
obra actually useful? cool 19:18
eric256 extremely...normaly i ftp back and forth but this is WAY easier ;) 19:19
especialy since the servers didn't want to connect to each others FTP for some reason 19:20
obra ah :)
eric256 wonders how many other people try to login to feather as root by accident 19:22
Limbic_Region pines for a p6 unpack that provides a way to "remember" where it left off in a string much like p5 regexen can 19:48
PerlJam Limbic_Region: we call those things "iterators" and we don't have enough of them :) 19:49
geoffb Limbic_Region, POS is exposed, right? Seems like a simple wrapper . . . . 19:50
eric256 if i want to kill a process and kill pid isn't working? whats the next step? 19:53
brother kill -9 <pid>
eric256 thanks
Limbic_Region geoffb - POS has to do with regexen not unpacking 20:04
well, not necessarily the next step I would take eric256 as there are more aggressive (but still catchable) signals to try before -9 20:05
geoffb - imagine you are unpacking records of variable length where you need to read a couple of bytes that tell you how many more bytes to read for the current record 20:06
with traditional unpack, you need to keep track of how many bytes you have read in a $skip buffer (using the x format)
so next time you read you can start where you left off - having a built in mechanism would be so much nicer
see perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=499988 for an example of where it would come in handy (assuming the DNA strand was in a scalar and not being read from a file) 20:08
my solution fwiw probably breaks since the author is changing the 600k string to 6.5 million
eric256 curses MySQL 20:37
geoffb Anyone know if L~R backlogs? 20:40
Well, just in case:
Limbic_Region, I was saying there is no reason that POS *couldn't* be applied with a wrapper func, to allow unpack and regexen to work together transparently. 20:41
The fact that unpack and regexen don't like each other is something I regard as a historical artifact, actually.
In fact, I can easily imagine the power of a protocol that could mix packed numerics with unpacked other data types, 20:42
using rules to handle the unpacked parts and unpack to handle the numerics . . . .
Juerd Heh. The high bid on my laptop is nigerian. 20:46
obra um.
Juerd They visit auction sites now.
It would perhaps not be all that bad if something awful happened to that entire country. 20:47
But I shouldn't say such things.
Hello ,
I dont understand dutch very well ....But I just have to inform you that I
want to complete this deal asap.
I want to send the item to My in-law presently in Nigeria and i want
you to post the item through tpgpost.
etc, etc
gaal Juerd: you probably like this site: www.419eater.com/ 20:49
brother Shouldn't this work: @kv = $k.isa(Str) ?? $k.split('') :: $k;
as in parse and do something
I get an "unexpected ":"\nexpecting operator or "!!"\nat <interactive> line 1, column 35" 20:50
eric256 ?eval my $k = "hello"; my @kv = $k.isa(Str) ?? $k.split('') :: $k; $k
evalbot_7600 Error: unexpected ":" expecting operator or "!!"
|uqu| brother, ??:: is spelled ??!! NOW
eric256 ?eval my $k = "hello"; my @kv = $k.isa(Str) ?? $k.split('') !! $k; $k
evalbot_7600 \"hello"
|uqu| heh, had to capitalize because of the exclamation points, it seems ;-)
brother Ohhh, newbie and my knowledge is already obsolete 20:51
Juerd gaal: I know that
eric256 lol
|uqu| brother, get used to it
Juerd gaal: Backscamming takes too much time
|uqu| we all pray for 6.0.0 when we're not allowed to break backwards compatibility anymore
chip hey guys. autrijus still about?
|uqu| of course, assuming we like what it is the week we release :-)
seen autrijus 20:52
jabbot |uqu|: autrijus was seen 2 hours 44 minutes 11 seconds ago
20:52 |uqu| is now known as luqui
chip darn 20:52
autrijus hmm?
luqui it appears so
dduncan I like ?? !! a lot better than any previous spellings 20:53
autrijus sigh, didn't get much done content-wise
luqui it ain't bad, it ain't bad 20:54
autrijus but format improved dramaticall
luqui link?
eric256 ummm.. anyone know why two versions of MySQL (4.1 and 4.1.1 or something very close) would have very different permission tables?
autrijus and my JS-fu improved as well ;) 20:55
I wonder if I'll end up rewriting Spork in JS ;)
luqui: perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/haskell.xul
chip autrijus: hi
autrijus chip: hey!
chip autrijus: I'm going to put up a lexvar sketch (only a few months overdue!) in a day or two
luqui hooray, fixed-width left-aligned! 20:56
chip autrijus: Please update me on your requirements ... I figure pugs has evolved so I should re-ask. I do remember conversations though
luqui thinks perl should have pi.
gaal wishes for a FF extension that does real full-screen in one keystroke
dduncan MySQL around that time was alpha version 20:57
gaal luqui: that' like a two line patch to Prim.hs :)
autrijus ?eval pi
evalbot_7600 3.141592653589793
autrijus thank you, next question? ;) (that's from S29)
luqui I thnk it's a zero line patch
gaal make that a zero-line patch
dduncan it only was declared stable at 4.1.8 ... so until then it is reasonable for things like permission tables to change
gaal there's another WTDI...
?eval $?PUGS_VERSION / 2
evalbot_7600 0.0
autrijus iblechbot: you there?
luqui should read S29 and bring criticisms to p6l 20:58
so maybe we can officialize it
autrijus chip: ok, you remember the hoisting?
dduncan fyi, I keep getting this at make time: Can't locate object method "new" via package "File::Temp" at /Volumes/Programming160/Pugs_svn/pugs/perl5/PIL2JS/lib/PIL2JS.pm line 141.
eric256 breaks down crying in agony
lol
dduncan perhaps that's another thing to bundle with the JS thing
eric256, exactly what mysql do you have? 20:59
autrijus dduncan: fixed, committing 21:00
eric256 on masterB: mysql Ver 14.7 Distrib 4.1.13
autrijus chip: each block/closure will declare all lexicals in its scope before entry.
dduncan well, 4.1.13 is the newest
eric256 masterA: mysql Ver 14.6 Distrib 4.1.5-gamma,
dduncan why did you mention 2 alpha versions? 21:01
autrijus chip: uplevel lexicals on both static (OUTER) and dynamic (CALLER) extent should be able to be looked up and enumerated efficiently.
eric256 there own Administrator will not connect to 4.1.13 it complains about the priviledge table lacking colums its expecting
dduncan with your permission tables question
chip autrijus: back; reading
autrijus: hoisting means that it's OK to consider a lexical declared at the beginning of the scope, rahter than at the line where it first appears, yes? 21:02
autrijus chip: yes.
the range is no longer parrot's business as far as pugs is concerned
dduncan hello chip, how's it going? ... fyi, at oscon portland I was the person sitting right in front of you on tuesday night
autrijus it'll be resolved statically.
dduncan you said then that you had a potential improvement in work 21:03
chip autrijus: What about this: our $x; sub foo { eval '$x' and return; my $x = 1; $x; }
autrijus chip: Larry decrees: "erroneous".
chip Well.
autrijus chip: there are ways around it (it's the same problem as CALLER) 21:04
chip Yes, same problem. Huh
OK, noted, will consider. 21:05
autrijus namely, have each eval"" store a snapshot of symbol extents
so $x in it gets rebound to $CALLER::OUTER::x
but again if both %CALLER and %OUTER is static and efficient
we can handle it in the codegen end.
dduncan eric256, I'm looking at the mysql change log between your versions ... something may have been added in that time 21:06
gaal autrijus: maybe this is more readable? `before ++ [pivot] ++ after`
luqui thinks so too
gaal for a newcomer.
dunno
autrijus gaal: sure
chip autrijus: I suppose we could also suggest a language-independent way to indicate 'this lex is out of scope right now, we suggest you ignore it'... 21:07
"we" = "Parrot people"
autrijus chip: sure, that would be fine with me
chip but I'm digressing further. I think I understand your req.
autrijus: Will you be parsimonious in translating language blocks/closures into Parrot blocks/closures?
if $cond { print } e.g.
oh that's a bad example 21:08
if $var { print $var }
autrijus chip: Parrot is CPS, which means snapshotting and entering closures should really be as cheap as possible
so I'll probably do that at first
chip and if lexical list is static, then lexical mechanism shouldn't make things worse. Got it
autrijus yes. exactly.
static means O(1) for arbitary depth on runtime
chip OK then. Glad you were here
autrijus no prob :) 21:09
chip wait, not O(depth)?
oh, do you mean %OUTER or %CALLER?
autrijus OUTER
CALLER is O(n) of course
chip OK just checking :-)
autrijus CALLER is dynamic depth :)
luqui plus, CALLER is O(1), because nobody ever looks up higher than one frame ;-) 21:10
autrijus luqui: riiight... now how do I write &eval in perl6...
dduncan eric256, I notice that MySQL's manual has, for the first time, been split up by major version rather than having one manual for all of them ... as a result, some links are broken right now
can probably work around though
luqui autrijus, oh. I get it.
it's O(n) even if you look up just one frame 21:11
that's what we get for saying "n" without defining it
autrijus lol :)
forall n. n
svnbot6 r7601 | autrijus++ | * PIL2JS.pm: Don't use File::Temp->new for bugward combatability.
r7601 | autrijus++ | Reported by ddundan.
chip autrijus: which leads me to ask, do you need both recursive and non-recursive %CALLER and %OUTER?
eric256 lol. is there maybe a script i need to run to fix the permissions? 21:12
where wuold i even look for such a thing?
autrijus chip: oh btw, larry also wants %MY and %OUR, which points to lex-only pad and pkg pad respectively
chip "bugward compatible" heh
autrijus "combatible"
chip even better
autrijus chip: and the pkg pad would be prone to runtime addition, unlike the lex pad 21:13
dduncan autrijus, 'make' now succeeds again thanks to that change
autrijus chip: this is totally just p5, so I can elide details
dduncan: cool
chip autrijus: Well, you're actually kind of not, I fear. 21:14
autrijus: There's no such thing as a "package pad" in p5
autrijus there is this hash thing, yes.
which works just like any other hash except you can't tie it 21:15
most frustratingly
chip All pads are attached to subs, just some subs are anonymous, e.g. the sub that holds & runs the code at package level (outside any sub definition)
autrijus so if in parrot I can just take a ParrotHash
chip At the end of compiling any sub, its pad is known & fixed and cannot change
autrijus to represent the namespace
chip That's p5
autrijus then I don't need to use the lex system for that
chip (for "pad" read "list of lexical vars stored in pad at runtime")
autrijus: you do, I think 21:16
consider
autrijus except then the lookup process would need to be smart enough to know when to look into the pkg-hash and when to look into the lexpad
chip Foo.pm: my $x
that's not in any package
autrijus sure, that is the diff between %OUR and %MY
chip not quite
(almost but not quite)
dduncan fyi, I can debug this later since its low priority, but it seems like editing config.yml doesn't have the effects I expect on my system; eg, setting smoke_concurrent to 2 does not result in 2 pugs processes running in parallel during make smoke ... but the file is obviously being read during 'make' because my changed values are displayed
autrijus mmm?
chip let's leave aside %OUR until after the %MY is completely shared understanding
autrijus ok. 21:17
Foo.pm: my $x
it's attached to the closure known as "file"
chip right. p5 rule is that lexicals always win, and package variable is the fallback (unless 'strict vars', in which case lexicals are the only choice for no-:: and package is the only choice for ::)
autrijus yes, and p6 is the same.
chip Great.
So is %OUR just syntactic sugar for %My::Package:: ? 21:18
autrijus larry said so, yes
dduncan I imagine that it may be related to this ...
autrijus I'm a bit uneasy about that
dduncan configure: No haddock found / configure: No happy found / configure: No alex found / configure: No cpphs found
autrijus because it's not that related to "our"'s semantic which is pkg->lex aliasing
dduncan I don't know what any of those do, and perhaps one is required
autrijus but then %PACKAGE:: is a bit long 21:19
but anyway whatever the syntax
chip autrijus: Oh, OK. I thought %OUR and our() were related in p6
dduncan for the parallel processes
autrijus there will be such a functionality.
chip: they are "related" but you can see things in %OUR that nobody declared with "our"
chip autrijus: I would *think* that the _only_ effect of our() would be that %MY contains an alias for something that appears in some package 21:20
autrijus chip: right, exactly, yes.
chip OK excellet
autrijus so our() modifies %MY
which is the source of my concern about %OUR
but that's not related to parrot :)
chip well, it also adds to %OUR. But agreed, it's SEP
autrijus SEP++
chip So now ... the lookup primitive 21:21
autrijus yes.
statically we know our current package name, our current closure (i.e. lexical scope) 21:22
chip If a literal variable appears in the code, you could emit something that would let Parrot reach directly to pad by numeric index. I can come up with that.
autrijus I'd prefer the translation be done at PIR level
but if this is not desirable
then I can do it in my codegen
although that means duplicate effort
for other languages
"the translation" is the process of having "$x" resolved into a number 21:23
provided it's in scope of course
chip I was thinking that lex vs. dynamic rules may be language-specific. If you could at least make the decision that you want a lex or a dyn, you don't have to translate the lex name to a number
autrijus sure! 21:24
I can know I have a lex
chip OK
autrijus I just don't want to output hard to debug numbers
chip oh I sure agree with that
I don't want to have debug numbers either :-)
autrijus great
:)
eric256 dduncan thanks for looking, i'v kludged away past my empasse for the time being..evil computers
dduncan okay 21:25
chip autrijus: Can you emit outer functions before inner? Given: sub foo { my sub bar { ... } }, can you emit foo in full before starting to emit bar? 21:26
autrijus for some value of "in full" 21:27
how do I refer to calls to "bar"?
eric256 your pointer about the documentation helped my ultimate problem, gramar for setting permissinos changed (at least relating to replication) but that was hidden because i was only seeing 5.0 docs. ;)
autrijus just lookup &bar?
sure, I can do that
chip autrijus: er, but what if it's anonymous...
autrijus then I'll need to invent syms
chip as most of them will be.
autrijus which is called lambda lifting 21:28
and sure I can do that.
chip Reason I ask, I'm pondering whether the pasm for &bar may referring to a fully populated Sub structure for &foo, including its lex list 21:29
s/may/may require/
autrijus sure, that is fine with me
chip otherwise, doing automatic %OUTER searches would be difficult
autrijus yup
chip ok, not decided, glad that's an option
autrijus anything local -- that is, *not* whole-program analysis, is easy to do 21:30
an example of the latter will be to find all call sites of &foo.
brother ?eval 'foobar'.trans( ['A'..'C'] => "a-c" ) 21:32
evalbot_7601 "foobar"
brother bahhh
?eval 'ABCDE'.trans( ['A'..'D'] => "a-d" )
evalbot_7601 "acCDE"
eric256 that was interesting
brother yup, adding it to my tests 21:33
in the trans method ['a' .. 'c'] is equivalent to 'a b c' 21:34
4 hours and counting since I just wanted to do $string.trans('a-z','n-za-m') 21:35
eric256 lol
brother So I've fixed my new teste but broke "ABCXYZ".trans( ['A'..'C'] => ['a'..'c'], <X Y Z> => <x y z> ),"abcxyz" 21:38
eric256 you just need to coolapse the spaces in key...but that seems wrong because then you could tr a space.
actualy that whole syntax seems wrong 21:39
?eval 'ABCDE'.trans( 'A-D' => "a-d" )
evalbot_7601 "abcdE"
brother ?eval 'brother'.trans('a-z','n-za-m') 21:40
evalbot_7601 "brother"
eric256 well you shouldn't have broken that! lol
brother uhmmmm 21:41
eric256 as it is currently that exand sub has no ability to handly multiple -'s 21:49
brother that is what I have done
but not submitted
eric256 ohhh
brother it was worse than no ability 21:50
6.2.10 did loop for *very* long time
"ABCDEF".trans( 'AB-E' => 'ab-e' )
eric256 you didn't break anything. right now it only has the ability to handle (string, string)
could you submit what you have? got me all interested then mention you have it localy. lol 21:52
brother ?eval "ABCXYZ".trans( ['A'..'C'] => ['a'..'c'], <X Y Z> => <x y z> )
evalbot_7601 "abcxyz"
brother array refs both places works too
eric256 the key to that was both places. they are getting coerched into strings with spaces in them 21:54
coherced? something like that.
brother right
Odin- coerced 21:55
brother coerced,
eric256 which i don't think is technicaly *working*
since it is building tr/a b c/A B C/ ....
Odin- Pronounced, if Im' not wrong, "ko-erst", displaying the awesome orthographic abilities of English. ;)
Err. "I'm", that should be.
eric256 Odin- unless your mad then its "ko-ers-ed" you! 21:56
commit your current one brother and let use see it. or nopaste it
brother submitted 21:59
brute force and ignorance 22:00
svnbot6 r7602 | pmakholm++ | add support for multiple ranges in $string.trans
eric256 nice. i like it...much better than the last version 22:01
my @ks = $k.isa(Str) ?? expand($k) !! $k;
i beleive right there is where you are telling it not to coerce into a string for the key....hmmm. but it should realy still work 22:02
eric256 scratches head
brother (~ $k).split('') 22:03
or just split($k,'') 22:04
split(' ',$k)
wolverian for a second there I thought "huh, perl6 does indexing with !! now too?" 22:06
dduncan smoke of 7601 for darwin is up 22:07
eric256 left side is always going to be a string because of => 22:09
the right side is not
so the right side is being taken as a list and the left is being joined with ' '
i don't think the specs can be right because you can't tell if they meant to have spaces in there or if the spaces where autogenerated 22:11
brother "ABCDE".trans( ['A' .. 'E'] => "a-e" )
I'm getting tires
-s+d
eric256 if you drop your ?? !! magic it seems to work fine 22:12
well not fine...my @vs = expand(~$v); is getting there 22:13
well you can't mix and match [] and " " because of the stringification...i think it realy needs to be posted to p6l and see what it should realy be. 22:15
or drop the => and make it take a list instead of a hash
pasteling "eric256" at 66.102.136.66 pasted "different version of trans" (37 lines, 1.1K) at sial.org/pbot/13677 22:17
svnbot6 r7603 | pmakholm++ | Fixes $string.trans with array references on both sides
brother Now I belive everything that worked before is working again
eric256 that comes out pretty well behaved as long as you don't miss the => 22:18
brother Well, that is a simpler solution
eric256 you can drop the check on @ks becuase the key will always be a string....unless someone changed that too 22:19
brother except when you like to do something like $string.trans(['{', '-', '}'] => ['(', '-', ')'])
eric256 wont matter. => is going to coerce the left side to a string 22:20
brother right, broken by design
eric256 hehe
just saying no need to check because by the time it gets to trans the left side is already a string, unless we drop the => (which i think we should because it doesn't realy mean what we want it just looks pretty) 22:21
brother Well, time to sleep in CEST
eric256 later
brother 5 hours for getting ROT13 to work, not bad.... 22:26
buu That's impressive! 22:27
brother almost 2 KLoC/year 22:28
Juerd wolverian: Still awake? 22:36
wolverian Juerd, yes.
Juerd wolverian: You asked something about the laptop, but my scroll buffer is screwed because of an /upgrade
a /upgrade. I do pronounce the / :)
elmex is there s way to tell parrot gc how much ram to use maximally ? 22:37
it uses up to 200MB RSS here when running...
wolverian Juerd, my last question was whether it had .g, but you answered that.
Juerd Okay
wolverian: I've had a 730 euro bid on it. From some guy in Nigeria who wants me to send it there :) 22:38
wolverian wow :)
Juerd wolverian: Yep, they visit auction sites now.
wolverian he'll send the money to you after you've sent the laptop and the money transfer fee to his account?
Juerd Something like that, yes 22:39
eric256 wolverian++ LOL
Juerd eric256: I don't think he was joking :)
wolverian I wasn't. sad as it is. :)
I'm buying a Fujitsu-Siemens laptop on saturday
my first laptop :)
eric256 the sad part is *someone* must be falling for those scams. Juerd i know, but I couldn't figure out how buying something could be a nigerian scheme.
Juerd wolverian: Those are reasonable 22:40
wolverian Juerd, business or consumer?
Juerd wolverian: There ought to be no difference
wolverian oh, okay.
Juerd The question is: is it a portable desktop machine, or a mobile device?
Ruggedness counts.
wolverian right. and weight, I guess. I don't have experience.
Juerd Will you be moving it a lot? Using it in bed? Outside? 22:41
eric256 new IBM think pads are nice sturdy laptops...spendy, but nice
wolverian Juerd, yes.
Juerd Then go for thinkpads
wolverian my budget is.. small.
Juerd eric256: New being anything under the age of 10 :)
eric256: Or 15
Or actually, I don't recall IBM has ever made unsturdy laptops
Except the G series
eric256 only has experience with thinkpad in the last 4 months
Juerd Which was a 2-model series which was then ended :)
wolverian: Buy a used IBM
eric256 used to love HP, but these IBM machines are just sweet.
wolverian Juerd, I'm not sure. that sounds more adventurous. 22:42
Juerd It is more adventurous. 22:43
How large is your budget, by the way? There are sub-1000 thinkpads nowadays.
eric256 trust him, you realy do want a sturdy laptop. it makes all the difference
wolverian Juerd, about 1000 euros
Juerd wolverian: Then why not buy a nice IBM one? Do you need a high speed 3D engine in it? 22:44
eric256 i have an HP thats been cracked since ilke the 10th month i owned it (kept meaning to get it repaired but you know how that goes)....the thing just never felt realy tough, the IBM's though, the second you pick one up you'll love it
wolverian because the X41 costs 1750 euros
wolverian notices the "other models" button
eric256 lol
search.ebay.com//search/search.dll?...m+thinkpad 22:45
ones about to go for 150bucks
wolverian "call dealer for price". 1) you asked me what country I live in, so you could localise 2) calling sucks
eric256 older...but cheap
Juerd wolverian: I have an X41 :) 22:46
wolverian: They're about the most expensive series, and for several reasons
wolverian Juerd, so, are 15" laptops way too heavy to carry around?
Juerd wolverian: Depends on your strength
eric256 nah.. 15 is good, 17 is a bit heavy. ;)
wolverian I'm a CS student
Juerd I have almost no muscle left in my arms and hands, because of my RSI condition, and yes, for me, it is now too heavy. 22:47
wolverian ("strength? what's that?")
Juerd But it used to be just perfect.
wolverian: There's normal and there's weak.
wolverian I'm not excessively weak, no.
geoffb wolverian, a proper carrying bag / backpack makes a huge difference. And the difference between a well designed back and a cheap bag is pretty severe.
wolverian the Fujitsu laptop I was looking at weighs 3kg
Juerd So does an IBM R51 or R52
Which are the models I would recommend you 22:48
wolverian geoffb, right. I'll definitely be getting a bag
Juerd Sturdy but affordable
wolverian Juerd, ah. I'll check them out
thanks a lot.
eric256 "well designed back" --- "mom i told you to get your back redesigned or it would wear out before you where 40"
geoffb eric256, heh
wolverian heh
Juerd Perhaps you can find a nicely discounted R51 (they're out of production)
geoffb I just know that my shoulders got a lot happier the day my wife got me a really nice bag to replace the so-so ones I'd had 22:49
wolverian oh, wow
these are cheap
Juerd non-ibm notebook manufacturers must hate me.
And IBM must love me...
wolverian oh, jesus, that was before VAT
thanks for putting that in the large numbers
and the +VAT price in really small
eric256 VAT?
Juerd wolverian: industrial BUSINESS machines :)
wolverian eric256, value added tax
geoffb Value Added Tax?
Juerd wolverian: They're used to selling to people who don't pay vat :)
eric256 european thing?
Juerd eric256: Yes
Odin- Juerd: I thought it was "international"?
geoffb VAT == Tarrif?
Juerd It's like sales tax
Odin- VAT - Value Added Tax 22:50
wolverian Juerd, right. they asked me where I live, thoguh
thoguh
argh.
"though".
geoffb I meant, is it really a sales tax, or is it an import tarriff?
Juerd But businesses get back what they paid to suppliers
wolverian and had localised the site mostly.
Odin- It's not a tarriff, no.
Juerd It's a sales tax
wolverian Juerd, IBM is listing R51 here
Juerd wolverian: Find resellers with stock :) 22:51
wolverian auugh!! 1400 euros
what the hell.
eric256 generaly they don't make the big number include things like tax or shipping. wanna make ti look cheap...is VAT realy high enough to make a difference?
Juerd eric256: around 20% usually
wolverian eric256, it's 22% here
Odin- eric256: Yeah.
geoffb uggg
Juerd eric256: It's not like sales tax :)
Odin- 24.5% here.
geoffb thinks 8% is brutal . . . .
Juerd eric256: It's tax for the added value only, and on the end price
Odin- Which, I believe, is the highest VAT in Europe.
Juerd geoffb: Yes, but it's 8% on 8% on 8% on 8% ... 22:52
wolverian Juerd, the IBM laptops I can afford as new all have 256mb RAM. :/
Juerd wolverian: Save for more RAM later
wolverian Juerd, is the R50e okay?
Juerd wolverian: Have you seen the private message by the way?
wolverian I heard the -e models suck
Juerd I'd avoid the -e's
They're bare
geoffb Juerd, I'm not sure that's true. Wholesale and all.
wolverian Juerd, no, I haven't
Juerd, they're all I can afford :) 22:53
Juerd geoffb: In any case, it's not as painful as it looks. It's a very different system.
geoffb Juerd, have you registered your nick?
Juerd Could be
geoffb freenode's attempt to swat a meat bee with a sledgehammer
Juerd Probably I registered one time to be able to join a certain channel. In general, I dislike IRC "services".
wolverian heh.
Juerd Are private messages disabled now? 22:54
Odin- That's what the notice says, yes.
geoffb Juerd, they are if you haven't logged in
eric256 crap 20% tax..thats just rude
Juerd 00:48 [freenode] -!- Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked due to spam problems, but you can always message a
staffer. Please register! ( freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )
Jesus fucking chr... Argh, I hate freenode.
eric256: It is not sales tax!
geoffb And from the way people refer to it, I'm guessing it's not obvious
Juerd eric256: The price excluding tax will be much lower 22:55
wolverian I think I'm going to have to sacrifice either features or ruggedness
eric256 wow. thats a bit overkill. explains why nothingmuch never got my responses to him, and he just thought i was crazy
geoffb is personally of the opinion that advertising prices without tax already included is government-sanctioned fraud . . . but I may be a hardliner
Odin- And the tax can be recuperated by certain parties. 22:56
wolverian geoffb, it IS illegal here, I think
eric256 Juerd...I never said it *was* sales take...touchy subject? ;)
wolverian or at least no-one does it
Odin- Don't remember the specific EU rules, though.
wolverian except for IBM
Juerd I forgot my password.
wolverian (who are apparently noobs when it comes to EU)
Juerd eric256: Yes. Touchy because ignorant people always cry when they hear the percentages, and this hasn't changed in over ten years. 22:57
geoffb wolverian, ah
Odin- wolverian: "EU? Ewww..." :D
geoffb Mars . . . now *there's* a good government . . .
Juerd geoffb: Businesses eventually don't pay VAT
eric256 government taking 20% = rude...regardless of what you call it or how long it has been that way.
Juerd geoffb: It's required here to list prices excl. VAT for businesses, incl. VAT for consumers.
geoffb Juerd, interesting. 22:58
Odin- eric256: Someone else taking 20% = rude, too, whether you call it "interest", "rent" or "profit". :>
Juerd eric256: With sales tax, the government takes much more than the x% you see as a customer.
eric256: There's hidden taxes all the way through the chain
That's different with VAT 22:59
eric256 Juerd - in some cases. depeds on the product.
geoffb Here in the U.S. sales tax is something ads have in the hyper-fine print, if they say it at all, and TV commercials get an auctioneer to say "price not including tax, license, doc fees, and mob cut" at 4000 wpm
eric256 geoffb++
Odin- Well, then you have a case *for* VAT already.
Juerd geoffb: All stores aimed at consumers (practically all stores) have to include taxes in all prices. Taxes aren't even listed, prices excluding taxes are neither. People stay blissfully unaware. 23:00
eric256 VAT is all taxes that went into generateing that product? /me doubts that, but that might just be my capatalist upbringing... BTW i don't care what the manufacturer had to pay in taxes. ;)
Odin- As Juerd said, ads usually *must* include VAT when aimed at individuals.
Juerd wolverian: Anyway, since I can't privmsg you... If you want, I can help out by selling you a thinkpad without profit
wolverian: I'd still have to charge VAT, unless you're a business or can abuse someone elses :)
Odin- Juerd: O_o COMMUNIST! 23:01
eric256 individuals have to charge other individuals VAT? just put it on ebay with a buy now button. lol of course you risk someone else clicking first. ;)
Juerd eric256: I have a company
eric256 5oclock and all is finaly well today. ;) tamed the savage databases now home to clean house. lol
Juerd - ahh! 23:02
later
geoffb 4 PM and still haven't managed to get my muse on
Juerd 01:00 < geoffb> Mars . . . now *there's* a good government . . .
I was just watching B5 an hour ago :)
wolverian Juerd, hmm, I don't know if it helps, as I think I would still have to pay more than my budget allows 23:03
geoffb Not the Mars government I was thinking of . . . :-)
Juerd wolverian: Depends - sometimes I can get an R51 for 700 ex vat
geoffb
.oO( Damn the network for killing Excalibur! Just when it was hitting a stride. )
wolverian Juerd, oh, wow. new?
Juerd wolverian: Yes. 23:04
wolverian: I can check current prices tomorrow if you wish.
wolverian I would marry your dad for that.
Juerd I can't guarantee they're currently overstocked, of course
But I've been lucky before
wolverian oh, of course, I understand. please check if you have time. :) I'm in no hurry with the purchase
Juerd I'll let you know
wolverian thanks a lot. Juerd++
Juerd Oh, and VAT here is only 19% ;) 23:05
One thing: should anything break, you will have to run it through IBM directly
geoffb is somewhat sorry he didn't jump on the Dell 50% off sales before the company realized they were losing money doing that
wolverian Juerd, :) that is fine. how long is the guarantee?
Juerd This is the fastest solution anyway, and they have international support, but usually you have a choice, and that I cannot provide of course :)
wolverian: 1 year -- IBM unfortunately doesn't do 3 years on the cheaper models 23:06
wolverian Juerd, oh, and if we stay somewhere around 1000 euros and you can make a small profit with it that's fine too.
Juerd, can I extend it?
Juerd I'll first call for a quote tomorrow
I have no idea - I'll ask 23:07
wolverian thankyou again. you are a really nice person :)
Juerd People here say otherwise :)
wolverian maybe you should sell them laptops too.. 23:08
geoffb You can be nice and direct at the same time
wolverian Juerd, oh, and don't believe them. you really are nice. 23:09
Juerd Heh 23:10
geoffb: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAT should you care 23:11
geoffb Juerd, OK, thanks 23:15
wolverian Juerd, still there? 23:20
Juerd I think so
wolverian Juerd, okay. :) what was that Fjallraven pack you bought?
Juerd Dependler 23:21
It's ugly and not entirely comfortable
But I like it anyway. It's very practical.
wolverian ah, found it.
it's kind of.. blockish
Juerd Yes
The aluminium frame inside it ensures it stays that way
It's a perfect seat to use while waiting for a train 23:22
wolverian hehe.
Juerd It's meant for it too.
wolverian it's not that ugly, actually
some stickers and such and it's almost pretty
Juerd I'd recommend using a laptop sleeve with this bag
That's much easier and better for your laptop in practice
Than using the straps in the bag 23:23
wolverian laptop sleeve?
Juerd Yes
See the SleeveCase product on sfbags.com
That one's expensive, there are less expensive ones.
But this is a good example, and I know the url without having to look it up :)
wolverian thanks :) 23:24
Juerd, those aren't that expensive 23:25
geoffb Juerd, not to open a wound or anything, but according to that wikipedia page, the difference between VAT and sales tax is mostly one of accounting and who sends what to the government -- the gouge to the customer ending up identical. So then it is appropriate for someone to say "20%? That's brutal!" Or am I missing something? 23:26
wolverian I'll go sleep now 23:27
bye :)
geoffb bye, wolverian
Juerd geoffb: I probably don't understand sales tax then
I thought that sales tax was applied on every level. 23:28
It apparently is not.
Still, I don't think it's brutal, 20%
That is, as long as stuff like food goes at reduced rates
geoffb Fair enough, I was just checking my understanding.
Juerd, right
Juerd Taxes have to be paid anyway
One way or another 23:29
Let people who spend more pay more. It makes sense to me.
geoffb My dad (a retired financial consultant) used to say "Taxation is policy." By which I think he meant "at least as much a policy decision as a method to get money for government services" 23:32
Juerd I understand neither
wolverian oh, Juerd 23:33
geoffb Though in most ways money doesn't terribly interest me, I think understanding taxation would tell me a lot about how the world works and how governments *want* it to work
Juerd I hate paying taxes, and would hate it much less if I were convinced the money was spent right.
wolverian Juerd, apparently the person actually in charge of paying for the laptop wants to use a "pay $foo sum a month for two years" scheme
Juerd wolverian: Then I cannot be of help 23:34
geoffb For instance, he once explained the various tax incentives for first-time home buyers by saying "Governments like home owners -- they are fundamentally stabilizing."
wolverian right, that's understandable :)
I'll see if a loan is possible tomorrow
then I could pay you directly anyway
damn, why do I think of asking questions so late? :) 23:35
Juerd A loan is exactly the same thing, except the buyer has to handle it :)
(It's usually a little less expensive too, but this depends on a lot) 23:36
wolverian right
I can take it myself too, but I don't know how students rank as loan takers 23:37
(I mean, I don't know if I can get a loan myself, but I'll check.)
weird. why doesn't HTTP::Headers overload bool and ""? 23:38
er - HTTP::Response, that is
oh well, that's perl5.
Juerd Because it's old, and before overloading was commonly accepted :) 23:39
Now, probably for backwards compatibility
wolverian right. 23:40
geoffb autrijus, your Haskell slides are looking pretty good 23:41
Juerd wolverian: I just recalled they have a web site. 23:43
wolverian: And that I have a password for it
wolverian Juerd, oh, nice.
Juerd wolverian: Best thing at this moment is an R52 for 799 ex vat
wolverian: However, it is a Dutch model.
wolverian dutch keyboard? 23:44
Juerd Possibly
As IBM is the only company foolish enough to sell dutch keyboards 23:45
(We use american keyboards)
I'll call them tomorrow
To ask what keyboard this one has
They have but one in stock
Oh, it's a high resolution one 23:46
1400x1050 on 15"
That's odd, for ibm :)
leo__ geoffb: I saw the preview of your next column - I'm very interested in reading more
geoffb leo__, the code optimization one? 23:47
wolverian Juerd, that would be nice. :)
leo__ yup that one
geoffb leo__, if that's the one you meant, I just started writing it a few minutes ago, when I came up with a good opening line. :-) 23:48
leo__ heh - then I shouldn't interrupt you
keep on writing' 23:49
geoffb :-)
geoffb hopes it turns out OK . . . this one may be a tad difficult 23:50
leo__ anyway, I saw you mentioned profiling tools, cachegrind and such
Juerd wolverian: None of the suppliers seem to have any r51s left in stock. That is unfortunate. 23:51
leo__ here are some numbers I've investigated some time ago:
groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6....&num=3
wolverian Juerd, oh, too bad. thanks for checking, though. 23:52
geoffb leo__, if you have links to some of those tools, that would save me some serious time, as I had not searched for links yet, which is always a bit of a drain.
wolverian Juerd, I appreciate it.
leo__ I'm just using cachegrind from the valgrind package
and gprof out of the box
Juerd wolverian: I'll ask about the r52's keyboard 23:53
For now, good night
leo__ valgrind.org/
geoffb Ugh, is there a way to tell google groups to switch to monospace fonts for the email text?
leo__, OK, thanks.
Juerd geoffb: Use the old interface
geoffb: It has a link somewhere, IIRC
geoffb Juerd, sigh
Juerd, fair enough 23:54
Juerd The old interface is better in every way anyway
geoffb You'd think someone at Google would have more clue than to screw that one up
leo__ there is clickable item on that pakge
geoffb Ah, duh, finally saw it, thanks leo__
Juerd By being dutch, I get the old interface automatically :)
Good night
leo__ Fixed font - Proportional fon
geoffb leo__, yep 23:55
wolverian Juerd, thankyou. I'm interested if the keyboard is sane and I can get that loan :)
geoffb g'night Juerd
leo__ thought that such a long link could also contain my setting for a fixed font ;-) 23:56
geoffb heh 23:57
leo__ geoffb: the numbers of the stats WRT parrot don't apply at all now, but perl/python/lua should still hold 23:58
geoffb OOC, what would be right stats for parrot now?

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