6.2.10 released! xrl.us/hxnb | geoffb's column (/. ed): xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | www.geeksunite.net
Set by autrijus on 10 October 2005.
stevan_ this is borrow right from CLOS, Ruby, etc 00:00
Class must be something right?
unless you assume that Class springs forth from the runtime fully formed
However that means that Class is a mystery to the other elements of your system (unless you explicity expose its internals) 00:01
if it helps,.. rename Class to Klass
Klass is just a class which describes classes (hash of methods, hash of attributes, array of superclasses) 00:02
if you create Klass, then you can bootstrap the rest of the system in 00:03
its actually very simple once your remove the nomenclature baggage
00:07 stevan_ is now known as stevan
stevan Juerd: as for how a subclass can also be an instance,.. it is an instance of Class, which has the ability to have subclasses 00:09
think of the basis of the system as being an instance type, instead of a class 00:10
Juerd: the MiniMetaModel.pl in the docs/ dir of the Perl6-MetaModel might be helpful in explain this 00:11
Juerd: this might help too en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaobject 00:22
00:28 mugwump is now known as samv, samv is now known as mugwump
Aankhen`` Um... question: what is this "Pugs.cabal.in" file that util/build_pugs.pl uses, and where/how do I get it? 07:14
obra you know what cabal is, yet? 07:18
Aankhen`` Not really.
obra It's the Haskell makemaker equivalent
misc something that doesn't exist ?
Aankhen`` Ah.
Does this mean I'm going to have to download something?
integral Aankhen``: Cabal comes with GHC. Pugs.cabal.in is just a source file, it's in the pugs svn, and should be in pugs distributions 07:21
Aankhen`` Oh.
In the root directory of the pugs/ tree? 07:22
integral it's actually not the final file Cabal uses, that's Pugs.cabal
Aankhen``: yep
Aankhen`` Strange, SVK doesn't seem to sync it for some reason...
integral weird 07:23
Aankhen`` Hmm.
Maybe I should just delete the entire local branch and create a new one. :-\ 07:24
Wha? It's in the local branch, but it's not being pulled down. 07:26
Neither is Pugs.sln 07:27
Aankhen`` deletes the checkout dir and tries again.
Cool, that worked. 07:32
OK, Pugs still won't build. 07:40
I am cursed. 07:41
pasteling "Aankhen``" at pasted "Build fails" (14 lines, 633B) at sial.org/pbot/13804 07:42
Aankhen`` (in case anyone's interested :-)
rafl Aankhen``: What ghc version are you using? 07:49
Aankhen`` 6.4.1 07:50
rafl No idea. Seems to be ghc-related, though. 07:51
Aankhen`` :-\
I seem to be the only one with this problem.
09:09 |cnhackT| is now known as cnhackTNT
wolverian is autrijus's Pugs slide 6/55 missing a [+] or so? 10:39
masak wolverian: i count only 46 slides in "Introduction to Pugs" 10:42
wolverian masak, pugs2.xul, that is 10:47
autrijus yeah, it is. 10:48
wolverian autrijus, in any case, nice presentation!
autrijus thanks!
wolverian autrijus, do you know if that @fib syntax is actually official yet? do we need to mark it lazy somehow?
autrijus (@fib Y @fib[1...]).map(&infix:<+>) 10:49
I think range is lazy by default, that's official
and binding respects that too
wolverian oh, right
and [+] is syntax level so that's too eager here?
ods15 so... whats pugs? perl6's bug tracking system?... 10:50
autrijus wolverian: no, [+] will yield one single value
wolverian autrijus, oh, duh. sorry. 10:51
ods15, are you asking seriously? :)
ods15 wolverian: not atm, but i did when i first saw it
wolverian ods15, ah. was it easy to learn what it really means? 10:52
ods15 uhhh...
what does it really mean
autrijus Perl6 User's Golfing System 10:53
wolverian ods15, it's the plural of a breed of dogs, obviously
autrijus but that's a backronym.
rafl autrijus: Did someone do recordings of your talks?
Preferable video recordings. :-)
ods15 you should've called it ACME PUGS
autrijus I'm going to present the haskell talk in... 30 mins
theorbtwo ods15, I think Acme::'s goal is just to be fun. 10:54
pugs is supposed to be fun and useful... with the emphasis on the fun.
ods15 wtf is Acme:: ?
rafl autrijus: Turn on your laptops microphone during the talk! :-)
theorbtwo Anyway, while pugs' primary author was previously well known for his work on a BTS, pugs isn't a BTS, and doesn't even use a formal BTS. 10:55
wolverian ods15, CPAN's "fun" namespace
ods15 heh didnt know that 10:56
rafl What's a BTS? I only know it as Bug Tracking System.
ods15 i was refferring to the cartoon mnopoly
rafl: thats exactly what he meant...
theorbtwo Yeah, Bug Tracking System. I was refering to RT.
If you didn't know what Acme was, at least in that sense, then why did you think it should be ACME PUGS? 10:57
rafl Ah, OK. Thought of the Debian BTS which is simply called 'BTS'.
ods15 theorbtwo: i was refferring to the cartoon mnopoly 10:58
anyway, nm, i'm just brainfarting.. bbl
theorbtwo rafl: I think it's been named debbugs, but everybody in the debian world just assumes it's the one you mean when you say "the BTS". 11:00
rafl Ah, right. The package for it is called debbugs.
pdcawley Dunno. 11:22
nothingmuch I agree! 11:29
wolverian tentatively. 11:30
gaal rafl, hi. 'pbuilder build' doesn't do anything on my box :/ 11:39
rafl gaal: Please show me its output. 11:54
gaal rafl: no output at all. it returns to the prompt pretty quick 12:08
rafl gaal: May I see the output of strace -f ?
gaal sh -x show that it sourced some extra files, but then nada
feather:~gaal/public_html/pbuilder.out 12:11
(i need the cvs version of ghc, not 6.4*) 12:13
rafl Hm, maybe your pbuilderrc is broken? That's the last file that is read before it exits.. 12:14
gaal doesn't look broken... 12:15
i don't have to run this as root, do i?
either way it doesn't work
rafl you do. 12:16
it uses chroot which normally gives you EPERM for non-root users.
gaal same behavior when run as root. 12:18
rafl Well, no idea. pure+reinstall?
What's yor commandline?
gaal where does the local mirror get created?
pbuilder install ghc-cvs*dsc 12:19
rafl Created a chroot before?
gaal pbuilder create --mirror my_mirror
rafl pbuilder create --distribution=sid --mirror ... etc.
Hm, no idea then.
gaal though that didn't say much either :)
rafl The chroot is put into /var/cache/pbuilder/base.tgz.
Well, reportbug pbuilder 12:20
gaal hmm, that doesn't exist. okay, purging as you suggest.
autrijus yay
talk over
gaal whee
autrijus well received
rafl Recordings? :-P 12:21
autrijus pugscode.org/euroscon/haskell.xul
clkao autrijus++ 12:22
gugod slide-making technology improved every year
gaal wow, many changes since 24 hours ago :)
clkao gugod: so uyou need to think about next year now 12:23
autrijus gugod: Spork::Formatter::Takahashi bah
gugod: just take the resize algorithm in takahashi.js
gaal pugscode.org/euroscon/haskell3.xul doesn't load? 12:27
hmm does now. 12:28
rafl: apt-get dist-upgrade seems to have helped: pbuilder create now does something :) 12:41
xinming autrijus: 12:51
How do you made this? :-S
gaal xinming: view source and scroll down 12:52
xinming gaal: hmm, I read that. But... I can't find the tags I know... - -b 12:53
<html> <head> </head> <body> </body> </html> that what I thought a web page must have... :-S 12:54
can't open in IE. :-P 12:55
brother xinming: but it isn't html
xinming can be rendered in Firefox. But not in IE. for IE, it will ask you the location to save... :-( 12:56
gaal xinming: it's XUL, you have to use mozilla or ff
xinming gaal: Oh, Ok, I think I understand.
kgftr|konobi gaal: sounds like there isn't a <? XML declaration at the top
oh... there is.... hhhmmm... 12:57
ah... server needs to tell IE what filetype the document is
xinming M$ sucks. :-P 12:58
cm there should be a doctype as well 13:01
rafl gaal: Great. 13:19
svnbot6 r7691 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props. 13:24
r7691 | iblech++ | * t/builtins/strings/trans.t: unTODO
r7691 | iblech++ | * t/unspecced/evaluation_order.t: (die "first").method(die "second")
r7691 | iblech++ | * t/oo/delegation.t: Minor fix (s/handles join/handles "join"/).
r7692 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: Prelude::JS::Str: Copied src/perl6/Prelude.pm's implementation of
r7692 | iblech++ | $str.trans, but doesn't work 100% yet (dunno why; will investigate).
xerox Do you remember where are the pugs videos? 13:41
autrijus it's pugscode.org 13:44
"OSCON movies"
xerox Right! Thanks.
autrijus :) 13:45
stevan_ our pasting service (sial.org/pbot/perl6) is gone 14:48
I think we should switch to a LISP based one (paste.lisp.org/) :) 14:49
xerox Lisppaste il great.
If people agree I could try getting it. 14:50
tehmaze perl6.pastebin.com/
stevan_ *cough* PHP *cough* 14:51
xerox Vote?
stevan_ (+ 1 (+ 1 LISP))
The lisp paste allows you to annotate too, which is very nice 14:52
14:52 stevan_ is now known as stevan
xerox ...or, given the anarchistic plan, it's ok to get it now :-) 14:52
stevan xerox: our old one doesnt work,.. so lets get it
xerox The administrator is currently away, I'll leave him a message.
stevan besides,.. we have invaded the haskell community,.. Lisp was bound to be next :)
Khisanth pastebin.com is quite possibly the the crappiest paste site around >_> 14:53
stevan xerox: if the Lispaste admin adds us, just change the channel topic to reflect please 14:55
Juerd tehmaze: How dare you.
xerox: Just get pastebot.
xerox: pastebot.sf.net
You can run it on feather if you like. 14:56
tehmaze Juerd: it works
Juerd tehmaze: It's PHP.
tehmaze so what
xerox stevan: will do.
Khisanth it's not even the PHP that makes it crappy :)
Juerd tehmaze: And in that case, whether it works is highly irrelevant.
stevan tehmaze: if we cared about something "just working" we wouldn't be here would be ?
tehmaze Juerd: so you won't buy anything of off an auction site too, if it's in php? 14:57
Juerd tehmaze: That's another thing. This is a Perl 6 channel.
stevan xerox: excellent, thanks
tehmaze ok, what *ever* ;)
Juerd tehmaze: Things we use must be written in Perl 6 or equally ranked language.
tehmaze Juerd: lots of my collegues will be attending amsterdam.pm btw
Juerd tehmaze: Who will?
tehmaze Juerd: Liz, Jouke, John, Bert
Juerd You work for Bookings? 14:58
tehmaze right
Juerd Ah, hm
Which John is this?
I don't think I know a Bert
tehmaze Loembang
Juerd I don't think I know him
gaal Um, new sigil!
tehmaze ok
Juerd gaal: Wha?
tehmaze Juerd: oh and Giel probably too
Juerd gaal: We have glyphs left?
tehmaze Juerd: Bert is my sysadmin-collegue 14:59
gaal Sounds like April Fools, right? How do you type the cent sign?
cm ¢T xD
Khisanth gaal: there are still symbols left on the keyboard?
Juerd gaal: wtf?
gaal p6-l
cm www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....uage/23630 15:00
tehmaze it's not the 1st of april yet, Larry 15:01
stevan eak!
gaal hey! what happened to sial.org!? 15:02
stevan gaal: it's nothingmuch's fault I think
xerox The lispb0rgs are assimilating them.
gaal stevan: you like to blame him for everything huh!
stevan gaal: sure, why not :) 15:03
Khisanth gaal: ctrl+shift+a2 if you are using a gtk app :)
gaal Khisanth: thanks :)
(but i'm not :) 15:04
Juerd replied with a few questions
gaal what other pastebots are there around?
Juerd Why are dollars instances of cents? :)
gaal: pastebot.org
gaal: Eh, pastebot.sf.net
stevan gaal: alt-4 on OS X
Juerd gaal: You may run it on feather if you wish. It's a Perl thing. 15:05
Khisanth anyone know why the cent sign is not on a qwerty keyword?
Juerd Khisanth: Which QWERTY is that? There are several dozen. 15:06
US QWERTY? Because this keyboard has only ASCII characters.
Many other QWERTYs => because the keyboard's country doesn't use cent signs 15:07
Yet others => because in practice, 'c' works equally well
Khisanth ok I guess the better question would be why ascii doesn't include the cent sign :)
kgftr|konobi autrijus: do you still have your webl10n presentation anywhere available? 15:08
Khisanth never noticed that
gaal Juerd: pastebot.sourceforge.net/ is a rather uninteresting page with a link to the parent directory. :/
Juerd Khisanth: It's not an official symbol, iirc
sourceforge.net/projects/pastebot then
And blame dngor for the stupid page on pastebot.sf.net
gaal Can I blame nothingmuch instead? Lower overhead for me. 15:09
Juerd Heh 15:10
I wonder if I can have a t-shirt made before tonight with a cent symbol and a big red cross
Oh, it's past 17:00
Then probably not
Damn :)
tehmaze Juerd: make it a `50 c' with a cross then :p 15:11
Juerd I suggest 1c as the ascii equivalent :)
tehmaze oh, there is a printshop still open on the Vijzelstraat
Juerd I'm in Dordrecht. 15:12
tehmaze ah, too bad
Juerd tehmaze: We could get annoying and demand that the euro sign be used 15:15
tehmaze: It also has a C in its glyph
tehmaze: There's now a very americanized imbalance with both $ and (cent thingy)
tehmaze no, I agree that ^ is the next logical sigil to use :)
Khisanth hmm the sideways Quake symbol
Juerd tehmaze: Only if we call # the comment *sigil* 15:18
tehmaze and ! the not *sigil* ? :)
Juerd After all, #foo and #foo are practically the same sigil.
tehmaze: No, that's an operator.
tehmaze yes, ! is not a sigil, so that will fit
Juerd Hehe 15:19
tehmaze easy to remember too
Juerd not a sigil, not the not sigil.
tehmaze or 􏿽xAC 15:20
gaal Juerd: pastebot wants some modules from cpan (eg. POE). ok to install directly or do you want me to shoot for debs?
Khisanth that would make ??!! unpleasant to look at .. $foo ?? ... !! !!!bar; 15:21
tehmaze (shift-` on a UK QWERTY keyboard ;)
Juerd gaal: Install directly only if it's not installed already.
gaal: All available debian perl module packages ARE installed.
gaal OK. Some things have newer versions on CPAN but hopefully this'll still work. 15:23
Juerd It will 15:24
If not, please try to use "dh-make-perl --build --install --cpan Module::Name" before installing without debian packages
And when you do need to not-use a debian package, remove the installed one first
I want to keep the machine upgradable :)
gaal wtf are Server::Web and Client::IRC that it wants?
Juerd gaal: Those are its own modules. 15:26
gaal ah, those are parts of pastebot itself. urrr, it's not runnable from the local dir?
Juerd gaal: pwd?
gaal (want to test this before make installing)
Juerd Skip the test. Be a man! :)
gaal ~gaal/src/pastebot-20040908
if you say so :) 15:27
Juerd It can *find* the modules
But they don't compile
Because of runtime errors
(Yay for mixed compile and run times)
gaal yay for silent evals :( 15:28
Juerd Silent?
It's an mkdir error
pastebot.perl Error while loading Server::Web: mkdir pastestore failed No such file or directory at Util/Data.pm line 268.
Compilation failed in require at Server/Web.pm line 20. 15:29
gaal s/silent eval/blind users/
Juerd :P
gaal they probably wanted mkpath instead of mkdir
Juerd Is that an assumption? 15:30
gaal a conjecture. 15:31
Juerd That's the same as an "educated guess" :)
gaal no, a conjecture doesn't have to be educated. :) 15:32
hareldvd__ Any idea which channel for perl-Tk issues? 15:36
Juerd #perl
gaal weird! the cwd is the current one (added a debug print), so it isn't a mkpath error, but strace doesn't show a mkdir call at all.
Juerd gaal: See Ulit/Data.pm line 268 then 15:37
Util even
gaal that's where i'm looking.
Juerd Print the argument to mkdir|mkpath. Is it what you want it to be? 15:38
gaal oh, it's just a perl bug:
mkpath($dir) unless -d $dir or die "mkdir $dir failed $!"; 15:39
should be
Juerd ()
gaal do { mkpath($dir) or die "mkdir $dir failed $!" } unless -d $dir;
Juerd mk or die unless -d
No need for do, though
gaal s/path/dir, but mkpath is better anyway.
Juerd It's a rather silly bug. 15:40
gaal $SILLY_BUGS++
counterwise, not karmawise.
hello featherpaste. 15:41
Juerd pastebot!
Oh, this one doesn't respond
autrijus rehi \camels 15:42
Juerd Hi autrijus
autrijus: Had you seen juerd.nl/takahashi/icons.html?
featherpaste "gaal" at pasted "pbuilder error" (20 lines) at feather.perl6.nl:8888/1
gaal rafl: any ideas?
Juerd 6.2.10 released! xrl.us/hxnb | geoffb's column (/. ed): xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: feather.perl6.nl:8888/ | www.geeksunite.net 15:42
gaal Juerd: the README explains how to set up apache to forward requests to the pastebot (that's its own server), so that people behind firewalls can still access it. 15:43
autrijus Juerd: no, checking 15:44
gaal Juerd: anymoose, now that it's tested to work *g*, i'll make install.
autrijus Juerd: what is that? 15:45
xerox www.sooff.com/database/perform_imag...500022.wmv 15:46
Juerd gaal: feather.perl6.nl/paste/ 15:47
autrijus: See juerd.nl/, most recent item
gaal Juerd: k, made install. Now to figure out how to have it start automatically. 15:48
autrijus Juerd: you coming to the 8pm meeting?
Juerd autrijus: Yep
autrijus: Have to find a way to park my car, but will be there.
gaal: crontab -e
gaal I heard parking is terrible in Amsterdam 15:49
Juerd gaal: @reboot /full/path/to/whatever/starts/the/daemon
autrijus Juerd: cool! the icons looks crazy enough
Juerd autrijus: This won't be an actual talk, by the way
gaal: It is.
gaal: Especially in the city centre, where this is. 15:50
gaal Juerd: Tel-Aviv is terrible that way too. Especially in the city centre, where I live! 15:51
Juerd gaal: I've never been there, or even near there :)
wb featherpaste
gaal one more quit 15:52
wolverian Juerd, wow, SVG icons would work a bit better, methinks :)
Juerd wolverian: I can't find them :) 15:53
wolverian: This icon theme is called krystalsvg, even! 15:54
Doesn't matter for the main idea, though
autrijus kgftr|konobi: try... web.archive.org
I've put what I have at autrijus.org/webl10n/
Juerd I will not complain any more that Larry is sometimes inactive in p6l ;) 15:58
autrijus roflmao
he was sitting opposite the table of me when he posted this c| thing. 15:59
Juerd (Not that I have)
xerox Un progretto con molti collaboratori internazionali si evolverá piú in fretta e meglio 16:00
(no 'si'!) 16:01
Juerd in fretta e meglio => ?
xerox faster and better
(autrijus, I meant to say that 'si' shouldn't be there) 16:02
autrijus ok :)
bbiab, dinner... 16:03
gaal Juerd: *wanna* be there for YAPC on Feb? :)
Juerd gaal: Yeah, but by then I won't have enough cash yet.