pugs.blogs.com | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | <stevan> Moose... it's the new Camel ":P | .pmc == PPI source filters!
Set by Alias_ on 16 March 2006.
aufrank specifically, if there are some params that are shared across different invocants, can that be declared with tiebreakers? 00:00
audreyt aufrank: S06, Invocant parameters
aufrank: give an example?
putter: er no. separate compilation. 00:01
putter: the compiler for a file always start from a clean state.
so the only way to influence parsing is by explicit 'use' and import from _that file_.
aufrank I'm in there now... there aren't any examples that use ( Str $a, Int $b : Num $b, Str $c : Set $d ) as you were describing yesterday 00:02
audreyt and indeed it's gone from the Synopses.
aufrank by design?
audreyt I don't know.
sec
see dconway's reply at www.codecomments.com/archive312-200...03396.html 00:03
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audreyt hm. 00:04
it gets infinitely simpler if we just have one tiebreaking level.
otoh, multilevel is useful to implement left-to-right instead of manhattan-distance tiebreaking. 00:05
putter so unknown idents default to prelist, and ref() works because it's in the prelude?
audreyt otgh, what's not specced does not exist
TimToady: multilevel tiebreaking. not specced. intentional? :) 00:06
putter: yes and yes.
putter: I imagine some day you can say
use Prelude <explicit list of things>
and kill the parts that you don't want
(same as in Hs)
putter k
wolverian except we don't have hiding, do we? 00:07
audreyt we don't.
aufrank as for my specific question, how about something like `multi sub apply_labels ( Set $unlabeled: @labels ) { ... }; multi sub apply_labels ( @unlabeled: @labels ) { ... };` 00:08
audreyt wolverian: otoh, if we say it accepts the Exporter spec of p5's
use Prelude <!ref>;
ought to do it.
aufrank both versions of the multi share a non-inv parameter
could you declare the two inv variations and the non-inv parameter all in one sig?
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audreyt aufrank: but if it's in one sig, how do you know if it's a Set? 00:09
multi app ( Set|Array $moose: @labels ) { ... } 00:10
does what you want, probably
aufrank is that the same as `multi ( Set $unlabeled : @unlabeled : @labels ) { ... } ?
whatever's after the last colon is the non-inv part of the signature? 00:11
audreyt if there is a colon, yes. 00:12
otherwise all params are taken to be inv
and no, it's not the same 00:13
Set|Array on the input param means that it can be satisfied by either a Set or an Array
and you'll have to use operations common to Set and Arrays to guarantee safety
until you do a typecasing
aufrank ok, I think I get it 00:14
audreyt cool. also, if multilevel tiebreaking is gone, then you don't have to parse multiple colons anymore
putter ;) 00:15
audreyt though I suspect left-to-right tiebreaking may have some real uses.
aufrank rule multi_sig { [ <single_sig> \: ]* <single_sig> } # any chance this is close? 00:16
audreyt (I just linked to andreas loh's paper on bringing "multi" and open data types to Hs)
# www.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~loeh/Op...atypes.pdf 00:17
aufrank: that looks fine
though maybe
rule multi_sig { <single_sig> [ \: <single_sig> ]* }
because your version on the last sig will fail due to lack of backtracking 00:18
aufrank yeah, that's right
putter re arity, what about named greediness? f g :a(1) :a(2) g grabs none/both but no sharing?
aufrank should we include that there's an implicit $self if there aren't any \: in the multi sig?
or is that detected at the "production" level? 00:19
putter ... so parser needs to consult param names as well as arity?
audreyt putter: no, I think all named :a(1) are parsed into the "current" fun 00:21
putter: and if it turns out there's no such named param, boom.
aufrank: there is no implicit "self" if it's a multisub 00:22
putter ... f g :a(1) :b :a(2) where f has a+b and g only a?
audreyt aufrank: it only goes there if it's a multimethod
aufrank putter: is your question about f (g, :a(1), :a(2)) v f( g(:a(1), :a(2))) ?
audreyt putter: in
f g :a(1) :b :a(2)
I think it's always unambiguously
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audreyt f( g( a=>1, b=>Bool::True, a=>2 ) ) 00:23
and never any other interpretation
aufrank I agree
putter k
aufrank if you want another parse, marke arguments to g explicitly with parens, right?
audreyt yup.
f (g) :a(1) 00:24
f g() :a(1)
aufrank right
putter thanks for the clarifications 00:27
aufrank audreyt: should the signature parser also parse the leading parts of the sub declaration? my Int foo ( @bar ) { +@bar } # is Int parsed as part of the sig? 00:28
clkao whoot
madness is happening
aufrank hey clkao
clkao unfortunately i need to go to bed
audreyt clkao: I saw "svk ci --interactive"
clkao audreyt: did you try it?
audreyt nice job, but Iwonder if Term::ReadKey is more intuitive 00:29
yeah
clkao oh sure.
audreyt aufrank: yes, Int is implicitly -->'ed
clkao feel free to patch
i just wanted to get that into trunk given that's in reasonable state (editors splitted by norman)
otherwise it's going to fall behind again
i have another branch of massive cleanups
aufrank audreyt: also multi|proto, and sub|method|submethod ?
and my|our ? 00:30
audreyt aufrank: the "my" part is not sig
none of them is sig actually
Int is 00:31
aufrank but RETTYPE is
ok, I can deal with that
audreyt cool
aufrank audreyt: do you have a suggestion about how to do defaults? see line 80 of Signature.pg 00:32
I guess that's a separate question from defaults. So a) how to do aliasing? and b) how to do defaults? 00:33
szbalint audreyt: would you have a few minutes for a SoC related discussion? 00:34
audreyt aufrank: I think you can safely put stuff in external/itnernal name for now
instead of <name>[0]'ing it 00:35
as for defaults, parse for an '=' followed by an <expression>
and don't worry about how that's defined
szbalint: sure
aufrank so just have token external { <name> } , and use that in the parse?
szbalint mind if I pm?
audreyt that's fine 00:36
aufrank: yup
otoh, $<external> := <name>
works too
if you want explicit aliasing
aufrank maybe the explicit parse is more maintainable 00:37
audreyt yup 00:38
aufrank audreyt: I actually had a different meaning of default in mind. positional defaults to required, named defaults to optional. 00:39
putter re defaults, need = <expr_above_comma> to avoid eating subsequent params
aufrank because `$a, $b, $c` is a valid <expression>, but could also be the rest of the param list ? 00:40
putter yes. in ($a = 3, $b) 3,$b is a valid expr 00:41
aufrank got it
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putter err, $a = 3, $b = 4 and 3,$b=4 00:41
nothingmuch win12 00:42
aufrank win12 to you too!
nothingmuch aufrank: =) 00:43
audreyt putter: actually, I came up with a better way 00:46
putter re arity, what about method calls? f m o: 2 3 ": calls" greedy? 00:47
audreyt <expression(terminates => ',')>
putter: yes, a : makes things after it listop
putter $a = (3,4) ? 00:48
post/circums extablish a new un-terminated <expr>? 00:49
audreyt yup
that also solves the
if expr -> {}
if expr {}
problem
by listing ->{} and {} as explicit terminators 00:50
aufrank nice 00:51
putter parsefail tokens :) 00:52
btw, has there been any discussion of sequence-of-longest-possible-exprs comma-free lists? 00:53
f 3 4 5
all it takes is adding a "wedge" state to the opp 00:54
aufrank is `sub foo (@a [$b, @c] = [3, [4, 5]]) { ... }` a valid sig?
audreyt aufrank: I'd think so.
aufrank or does it have to be (@a [$b = 3, @c = [4, 5]]) ?
good, that's easier ;) 00:55
audreyt :)
wolverian heh, so we have x@(a:b) too? neat :)
audreyt the two forms are subtly different :)
wolverian: yup :)
aufrank traits come after defaults?
or before? or either?
audreyt unspecced 00:56
before, if you ask me
aufrank I like ($a = 3 is rw)
audreyt but "3 is rw" 00:57
may be calling infix:<is>
aufrank oh, yuck
($a is rw = 3)
audreyt i.e. the terminating list will grow
yeah, I think I like that better
aufrank fine by me
wolverian audreyt, oh, do you know, can you use a stub declaration to declare the common signature of a set of subs (multis)? i.e. multi foo (Foo, Bar --> Baz) {...} multi foo ([], $bar) { ... } multi foo (@foo, $bar) { ... }
aufrank but if you get a lot of traits, it could start being weird to have the "assignment" so far away from the variable 00:58
audreyt wolverian: it's called "proto"
wolverian oh.
audreyt proto Baz foo (Foo, Bar)
wolverian hunts AES
audreyt aufrank: just add a \n 00:59
wolverian ah. there isn't an example in S06 so I kind of missed it. thanks, audrey!
audreyt $a is rw is happy is nice is cheap is cheerful
= 4
wolverian (oh, can I say [Foo] in a sig to mean List of Foo or so?)
audreyt np :)
aufrank man, I love $a!
audreyt wolverian: current spec has it at 01:00
Array[returns => Foo]
wolverian I assume that would actually mean [Foo] # a list of one element, namely, the type Foo
audreyt or, more succintly
Array[Foo]
wolverian that's fine. thanks.
audreyt np :)
audreyt gets ready for $job
putter thanks again. night all & 01:01
aufrank audreyt: any ideas about setting isRequired by default for nameds?
bye putter, thank you!
wolverian weird, protos can declare parameter _names_ too?
xinming audreyt: will you be free this evening? 01:02
audreyt: I have a problem while using svk, and I have to go out for learning driving now... I'll talk to you this evening.... :-/
xinming has to go... 01:03
bye all... 01:04
aufrank bye!
wolverian does this look sane? I'm experimenting. I'm uncertain about the flattening. it's a port from haskell. chronoa.dy.fi/~wolverian/code/poly.p6.html 01:10
audreyt aufrank: you can do that in a production inside the rule
aufrank ok, consider it punted-on :)
audreyt subset Poly of Array[Term]; 01:11
is canonical
you'll need *@poly in the unpack
wolverian ah, that works. I said 'subset Poly of Array where Term;' in my head and immediately thought "ah, subset doesn't work here!"
mm. true. thanks again 01:12
audreyt otherwise looks kosher
aufrank is there a way to use the :: synonym for subset in that?
wolverian it's a bit simpler in haskell due to the differences in lists
i.e. a : b instead of [a, *b] 01:13
audreyt well, haskell is a lisp
wolverian yeah.
audreyt p6 is more sparse-arrayish 01:14
in its []
which turns out be more useful in practical extraction and reporting :)
wolverian hm. would it work if I just returned (foo) instead of [foo]? then it wouldn't type as --> Poly though
(s,would it work,could I remove the *s,) 01:15
actually, I don't know what that would mean in type terms.
i.e. sub { 1,2 } # what is the return type here? 01:16
audreyt :(Int, Int)
wolverian ah. a tuple. :)
audreyt can be viewed as such :)
sub { (1,2) } 01:17
:(Seq[Int])
note the parens
but for most sigs
those two are equivalent
wolverian hmm. what's Seq? 01:18
audreyt it's what was known as Tuple
Seq is like HList I guess ;)
wolverian ah. so it's not a supertype of Array?
audreyt well, Seq is immutable
and fully evaluated
wolverian immutability is sort of assumed in this implementation ...
audreyt i.e. has no Range parts
nor iterator/generator parts 01:19
wolverian right
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audreyt in haskell it's a Data.Sequence 01:19
wolverian maybe I should just leave off the type declarations and trust it's smart enough to infer what I mean. :)
audreyt yup :)
wolverian oh. is the return type inferred too? 01:20
I assume it has to be.
audreyt it has to be.
or at least asserted.
wolverian now we're back to the problem I have with haskell: I have to comment my code to make it obvious what each sub does. 01:21
aufrank audreyt: with rule multi_sig { <single_sig> [ \: <single_sig> ]* }, how do you capture that all but the last are invs? 01:22
audreyt : { @<single_sig>[*..-2]<is_invocant> >>++ } 01:24
something like that
aufrank woah, wicked 01:25
wolverian do bools have ++? :)
avar ++true++ == false?;) 01:27
eh == true 01:28
wolverian ha, spoiled it!
avar stfu;) 01:29
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svnbot6 r10238 | aufrank++ | added support for multi sigs 02:36
r10238 | aufrank++ | includes tracking invocants (but no implicit $self)
r10238 | aufrank++ | added explicit tracking for external and internal param names
r10238 | aufrank++ | better parsing of type parameters
r10238 | aufrank++ | general rule for parsing single and multi sigs
r10238 | aufrank++ | lots of questions left-- please check it out!
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svnbot6 r10239 | aufrank++ | changed match aliasing to follow examples in S05 03:27
r10239 | aufrank++ | miscellaneous code cleanup (comments, formatting)
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audreyt spinclad: any thoughts on walking the HsJudy array for iterating keys? 04:05
spinclad: I think the sequence in JudyHSFreeArray; see JudyHS.c 04:06
aufrank audreyt: is colorer.sourceforge.net/ something along the lines of the IDE support library you had in mind for SoC? 04:08
(using p6 and AST instead of c++ and XML) 04:09
ingy hola 04:12
aufrank hi ingy
ingy hi aufrank
I read your email
not sure what you need from me, but I support your efforts in advance :) 04:13
audreyt: is v6-pugs M::C yet?
aufrank when the idea involved PDOM and kwid, I was hoping for feedback on where to start and what to tackle 04:14
but I focused in on the idea of a library for IDE support (thanks to audreyt)
ingy cool 04:15
audreyt ingy: nope.
audreyt @ $job 04:16
aufrank oh come on, you're not THAT busy... just have to get jifty running on win32 before the end of the day ;)
audreyt actually it's done :) 04:18
writing unit tests and such
aufrank you're a marvel 04:21
aufrank looks forward to Capturized pugs 04:22
audreyt too... for some weeks now 04:25
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aufrank I'll start another *.pg this week if you think there's another language element that's reasonably well-specced and self-contained 04:28
audreyt Capture, for sure? 04:30
having just parsed
:(...)
seems reasonable to parse
\(...)
"fixed" parts: invocant, positional, named 04:31
"flattened" parts: *$foo
aufrank captures can appear as arguments when a routine is called, but not as params when a routine is defined, correct?
audreyt right.
Capture is the dual of Signature
audreyt wonders how many hits does www.apple.com/macbook/ receive each day 04:32
aufrank I hear Tuesday is the day for the macbook
audreyt I hear that too
I further hear it's shipped from Asus's offices, which is like, not far from here :) 04:33
audreyt ponders a factory raid
aufrank this is probably too broad a question, but what is the relation between Captures and Match objects? 04:34
obviously a Capture could hold a Match object, that's not too interesting. But are Match objects built out of Captures in any way, or can Captures be treated like Match objects?
does a capturing match, <( foo )>, create a Capture? 04:35
(I think that last one is what's got me thinking this way... the fact that we talk about capturing in matching and now we have things called Captures. It makes me want them to be related) 04:36
audreyt no 04:37
the <( ... )> merely sets .end and .from
Match isa Capture 04:38
so all Matches are naturally subject to *()
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audreyt class Match is Capture { has $.from; has $.to } 04:40
is more like it
aufrank ok, that makes sense
audreyt glad to hear that :) 04:41
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gaal Anyone heard of the K programming language? A friend just sent this link: 05:19
# www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;s.../22741/791
its reduce metaoperater is shorter than Perl 6's!
and it has scans in one character too(!!) 05:20
wolverian haven't used it myself, but I have seen people use it on perlmonks and elsewhere for real statistical stuff
spinclad audreyt: yes, it's a straight walk of the tree of JudyL's (forward or backward). i'll do the API spec first for comment and then the code will be simple (for C). they will need to return buffer and length; i'm making sure there're no ownership issues on the buffers. 05:33
i should have something in the new day; bedtime for me here tho 05:34
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svnbot6 r10240 | scw++ | Pugs::Grammar::MiniPerl6 05:40
r10240 | scw++ | * numbered capture supported
r10240 | scw++ | * string concate translated to '++'
aufrank sleep here too, but probably a Capture.pg tomorrow 05:41
svnbot6 r10241 | aufrank++ | fixed inconsistent token names 05:49
gaal hmm. what do we have for scans? 06:10
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audreyt spinclad: cool! looking forward to it :) 06:29
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Unix_Sendin aqui alguien habla espaōæ½xF1ol que me pueda ayudar 10:09
azuroth I'm learning Latin. however, I don't think that will help me understand you :-( 10:10
Unix_Sendin sorry moment please 10:11
Aragone guesses "is there anyone here who speaks spanish who can help me"
although that's based on my 15-year-old-Latin (and French) :(
azuroth oh, that's n with a tilde-ish thing, not a question mark. 10:12
Unix_Sendin apologize it is that I don't speak English use a translator
10:14 Unix_Sendin left
Arathorn :| 10:15
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ludan hi 12:10
svnbot6 r10242 | scw++ | Pugs::Grammar::MiniPerl6: escape charactor in string 12:12
xinming audreyt: ping~~~ 12:15
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audreyt xinming: pong? 12:27
(just off $job, probably going to crash in a few mins) 12:28
Limbic_Region laffs
audreyt - you are incredible with doing that which you set out to do - except actually resting
audreyt too true. 12:29
xinming audreyt: hmm, there is a svk "bug" IMO. :-)
audreyt #svk is the place for it :)
xinming hmm, let me illustrate....
audreyt: Ok, #svk
audreyt <- no longer an active svk committer
xinming hmm, Ok, I'll ask clkao for that bug fix... :-) 12:30
audreyt cool :)
which means I actually get to rest, yay
xinming audreyt: :-) 12:31
ludan audreyt: do you live in the netherlands? 12:35
audreyt no. I currently live in Taipei, Taiwan 12:37
ludan uhm, and why your location is netherlands ? i mean in your irc client :) 12:38
integral feather's a donated perl6 development machine :) 12:39
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ludan \o/ 12:39
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ludan ok i've undestood :) 12:39
integral: where i can start to learn some haskell ? this is my first time with a functional language 12:41
s/some/a bit of/
audreyt ludan: check out the pugs tree 12:44
and read READTHEM
svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/READTHEM
integral there's also stuff on haskell.org, but READTHEM is good. Previous programming experience, and things like SICP help a lot :) 12:45
ludan ok, many thans
*thanks
audreyt also there is my haskell talk 12:47
yapc.g.hatena.ne.jp/jkondo/20060330/1143700046
I wonder if it belongs to READTHEM. hmm. 12:48
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audreyt (slides: perlcabal.org/~audreyt/osdc/haskell.xul ) 12:48
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gaal ludan: don't be discouraged if one tutorial doesn't work for you right away. I'd start with audreyt's slides (is there a version of that with audio already?) and "Yet Another Haskell Tutorial" 13:04
ludan gaal: ok, thanks :)
gaal The "Gentle Introduction" is a little terse, but its treatment of everything except monads is pretty good too 13:05
find one you like the style of, and if there's a topic you don't understand, look in another text, or ask here or in #haskell 13:06
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ludan gaal: many thanks for these advices 13:06
gaal sure thing :) 13:07
Daveman Hi gaal :) 13:31
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gaal aloha 14:07
Daveman :) 14:11
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gaal bsb: ping 16:06
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pmurias hi 17:04
FurnaceBoy hi 17:05
pmurias where does Pugs::Compiler::Emit::Parsec live or is it still in planning stage? 17:08
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pmurias gaal: i read the article you posted before and reread it now, but the lack of an open source implementation, is a big obstacle for me in learing/using a language 17:20
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FurnaceBoy is that K ? 17:21
pmurias yes
FurnaceBoy heh
yeah it looks great, but it's a dealbreaker in anyone's language :-) 17:22
FurnaceBoy felt the same way
gaal It doesn't have to be an obstacle for stealing ideas though :-)
FurnaceBoy :)
pmurias the latest version of the language is named Q by the way 17:25
gaal was the previous one named C? 17:26
oh no wait, that's taken :)
pmurias has to learn C and STL, and dosn't like them one bit 17:27
FurnaceBoy "has to" ? 17:29
you've come to the right place
for relief
gaal C isn't that bad. C++ just pisses me off all the time 17:30
well ok C is bad :)
but it's not bad for what it does well.
FurnaceBoy quite. 17:31
I suppose pmurias meant C++ since he mentioned STL.
pmurias well i prepare for an algorithmic competition, and the only library you are allowed to use is the STL 17:33
i want to use only as much C++ as nessesary to use STL 17:34
so i don't have to write hashes and linked list myself 17:35
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pmurias practicly it's GNU C++, as one is allowed to use gcc specific extensions 17:37
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pmurias some of other participants are using pascal so C++ isn't bad by comparision 17:46
FurnaceBoy hehe
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pmurias Introduction to Algorithms, will arive tommorow and i have the Art of Computer Programming, does anyone know other good algorithmic books? 17:53
PerlJam I wonder if it might make a good publicity stunt to have a parrot/perl6 programming contest. 17:55
Or even just get SPOJ to accept parrot + pugs solutions 17:57
integral At a conference? Or a ICFP type contest?
Arathorn pmurias: there's a big white tome with red leafs on the front which is very good 17:58
Arathorn looks for it quickly
FurnaceBoy obfuscated Parrot?
Arathorn ah, that is Introduction to Algorithms
PerlJam integral: both
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Arathorn well, TAoC and Introduction to Algorithms is all I have... 17:58
PerlJam integral: presumably the contest would be run at OScon or something rather than just the usual perl conferences. 17:59
I can't guage the bang/buck ratio on this idea though.
s/guage/gauge/
pmurias PerJam: what is SPOJ? 18:02
PerlJam www.spoj.pl/ 18:03
pmurias it was the first link i got on google, but couldn't belive it's something polish 18:07
although there's very heavy emphasis on algorithms in Poland 18:18
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FurnaceBoy East Europeans continually top the harder contests ;-) 18:21
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pmurias i'm personaly only intrested in winning univeristy entrance :) 18:33
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buu Yay! 19:00
19:12 shachaf joined
aufrank which yay, buu? 19:15
buu No tha twas a generic yay. 19:20
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cmarcelo hello.. does pugs support the "atomic { }" construction for STM? 21:22
PerlJam cmarcelo: you'd best back up a bit and ask if pugs supports STM and *then* ask what the syntax is :-) 21:23
(I don't have any answers, but I didn't think pugs even did STM properly) 21:24
cmarcelo sorry, I just mention "atomic { }" because I saw one idea about this once... I was meant to ask if it supports STM =) 21:25
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gaal cmarcelo: it used to, unspeccedly and not-well-testedly. But I see it's no longer there, presumably someone took it out after seeing it wasn't working well? 21:34
cmarcelo gaal, tks 21:39
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aufrank hey, just a quick update to any SoC folks: the deadline for student apps has been extended to 1100 Pacific Daylight Time, 5/9/2006. 22:58
use the time wisely ;)
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