Summer of Perl | 6.2.12 released! | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | www.treehugger.com/files/th_images/paradigm.jpg
Set by nothingmuch on 12 July 2006.
00:01 cognominal joined
nothingmuch i'm actually installing orz 00:30
to use it
clkao nothingmuch: so where's the rest of your music 00:32
nothingmuch on my laptop
i can rsync it to my box when i get home
or i can push specific parts to you over the next hour or so
till boarding
clkao orz 00:33
i will wait till you get home
have a safe flight
TimToady nothingmuch: I've updated S03--so tell me if there's something there that I should clarify. 00:38
nothingmuch TimToady: i just started reading the patches 00:40
but a certain someone is a constant distraction
TimToady it's pretty much what we discussed.
nothingmuch yes, i looked over it
and the first pragraph of each one is very clear
the exact details are what i haven't looked at yet
TimToady pity about the rest.. :)
nothingmuch so i may have nitty feedback
heh
TimToady k 00:41
there's always nits...
00:48 marcus_ joined
TreyHarris TimToady: just a crazy idea. one of the things programmers from other languages have to get used to is that Perl's boolean operators return values other than just true and false. since in Perl 6, we can give any object a true or a false role, should the comparison and relational operators now return values as well? 00:50
TimToady ?eval 1 == 1 00:59
00:59 evalbot_11535 is now known as evalbot_11550
evalbot_11550 Bool::True 00:59
TimToady not such a crazy idea
?eval (1 == 1) + 42 01:00
evalbot_11550 43.0
TimToady or are you asking for Icon's semantics? 01:01
I don't like those...
TreyHarris TimToady: sorry, lost my connection for a bit. I'm not familiar with Icon's semantics, what are they? I was thinking more that "3 < 4" should return "4 but true", "3 > 4" should return "3 but false" 01:13
s/should/might/ # i'm still just thinking out loud
TimToady yeah, that's Icon's semantics... 01:15
except they call it "success" rather than truth.
TreyHarris ok, since you've thought about it and made a determination, i'll rest easy :-) 01:16
TimToady it might well even work that way underneath, by my experience with Icon tells me it's a lousy thing to try to get newbies to understand. 01:17
s/by/but/
me having been a newbie once trying to understand Icon... 01:18
01:18 dduncan joined
TreyHarris true, but it's a lousy thing to get Perl newbies (who are, say, C++ programmers) to understand a simple thing like "$a = $b || $c". just today somebody on my company's perl list posited that that should always be turned into a ternary or an if/else because it's too difficult to understand "even for experienced developers".... 01:18
but I think that's just C bias showing 01:19
TimToady Yeah, we use "or" to return things other than booleans all the time in English.
but most of us don't use < to return $b but true 01:20
dduncan I don't know if others are doing this, but starting now I will be maintaining a separate clean-room style install of Perl on my machine whose only purpose is to support v6.pm ... it will be the latest stable Perl (5.8.x) plus the latest CPAN releases of v6.pm and the latest CPAN releases of all of its dependency chain ... and nothing else ... only what is released on CPAN will go in it ... 01:21
nothingmuch boarding time soon
TreyHarris yes. I have difficulty understanding sentences like "'if (! $d)' is much easier to understand than 'unless $d'".... I suspect a certain degree of disingenousness when I hear that. 01:22
dduncan parallel to the SVN of Pugs, this will be the "Perl 6" for my development
that collection will be the Perl 6 analogue of a plain Perl 5 install 01:23
nothingmuch TimToady: maybe a comment on why strings are really objects but pretend to be values is important
TimToady hmm.
nothingmuch the whole character <-> encoding thing shouldn't be explained in line
dduncan since v6.pm et al are released to CPAN now frequently, it should be fairly up to date with development at any given time
that is all
nothingmuch but the fact that strings are higher level than buffers
but can be canonicalized as bufers 01:24
dduncan the purpose is to partly to simulate what CPAN users actually are dealing with, and it is a semblence more stable than the SVN versions
TimToady semblances can be important.
nothingmuch gee, ya think? ;-) 01:25
TimToady that's why I dissemble frequently.
nothingmuch =) 01:26
so was that a pretend patch?
TimToady I always pretend when I patch synopses that the implementation will just naturally follow along without effort. :) 01:27
If I thought too much about how *hard* some people are working on this, I might get to feelin' guilty or something.
nothingmuch <3 svk 01:28
<3 darcs
TimToady instead, I sort of perform the Jewish mother trick: "that's okay, I'll just sit here without Perl 6 for a while."
nothingmuch !<3 flights
my dad does the jewish mother trick often
though more subtle 01:29
kolibrie wanted to be a commercial pilot once
nothingmuch wasn't it your wife who wanted you to be a helicopter pilot?
i thought you kinda didn't want to
TimToady now you want to be a non-commercial pilot, or a commercial non-pilot?
nothingmuch puts his money on the latter
kolibrie my mom wanted me to fulfill my dream of becoming a pilot 01:30
TimToady me, I'm a non-commercial non-pilot...
nothingmuch still has that dream sort of
kolibrie my wife decided it would be great if I could fly an EMT helicopter and she could be the EMT
nothingmuch i want to learn to fly a glider
kolibrie nothingmuch: that might be fun 01:31
nothingmuch i'm assuming it is
but ENOTUITS right now
maybe in a few months
kolibrie is a private pilot now, but haven't flown for a couple years
very expensive to rent planes 01:32
nothingmuch oh! i didn't know you actually flew
i thought you let it go after a while
kolibrie sort of did
I'm not pursuing it any more
nothingmuch (that is, before you begun to learn)
*you'd 01:33
or perhaps *began learning
english is difficult
kolibrie I think there is still a little left in my blood, for when I have money again, if that ever happens
nothingmuch maybe you can do for-pay flights 01:34
i heard it's fairly easy to get the certification level at which you can accompany a trainee
and fly for free
or almost free
kolibrie only if I get a commercial license
nothingmuch (i have a friend who learned to fly in the US and has been really rambling)
TimToady maybe that's why they gave you the special pat-down treatment at the airport... 01:35
nothingmuch perhaps 01:36
oopps
TimToady but hey, I have a friend who claims she's an anarchist...
nothingmuch 10:50 noto 10:15
she gets harassed for that?
(at the airports?) 01:37
TimToady no, but he did.
nothingmuch oh
that was all ingy's fault
TimToady that's okay--ingy's good at taking responsibility
nothingmuch =)
"what doe G mean? I G NY?" 01:38
idiots
well, at least they don't ask "What do those shiny things stand for"
TimToady grep?
nothingmuch i think her current wardrobe is a little less suspicious looking
i mean, i would totally not trust a nice looking person in a pink shirt either 01:39
kolibrie I used to have a pink dress shirt my mom made me wear
TimToady I don't think I've worn a pink shirt for a year or so...
nothingmuch i like my pink dress shirt
well, my pink shirt 01:40
TimToady you don't have a pink dress?
kolibrie I normally wear bright or bold colors now, pastels and such just don't do it for me 01:41
nothingmuch no, i have a kilt
but that shirt isn't very dressy either
TimToady I don't know a tartan from a tartar from a tart. Well, okay, I can recognize a tart usually... 01:42
sure seems like a Friday night... 01:43
nothingmuch the IRC channel? 01:44
nothingmuch will install a laugh-machine for next week
and a drum set
it should be a fiarly ismple IRC bot, and an aggregate bot launcher 01:45
you'd say *applause* and then they would say "clap" at random intervals
and then you would say *laughter* and they would say "haaha" and "lolz" and stuff (also at random intervals)
TimToady It has to tell bad Muppet jokes I think.
nothingmuch And that was nothing like a bad muppet joke, i think! 01:46
*laughter*
TimToady no, every bad joke is like a muppet joke!
hrr,hrr,hrrrrr
we'd like to thank our special guest tonight, nothingmuch. 01:47
but we won't.
nothingmuch *applause*
kolibrie *clap*
nothingmuch kolibrie: it has to be like 10-20 bots together
kolibrie sorry, I'm only one 01:48
TimToady hard to simulate a saxophone playing the wrong note though.
kolibrie and not too good as a bot
nothingmuch we could have an opbot that occasionally shouts ANIMAAAAAAAL and kicks all the channel
theorbtwo It could say hahaha and then /nick to something else.
nothingmuch but then again, nobody is op in #perl6 =)
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nothingmuch theorbtwo: much more amusing to have 10-20 bots at the same time 01:48
TimToady I'm op for it if you're op for it. har har har 01:49
nothingmuch *applause*
*laughter*
dduncan of course, if the opbot had just kicked everyone off, no one would see it say hahaha
nothingmuch the bots would
and the logbot can stay =)
this could be nice example code
TimToady the Mupbot Show 01:50
kolibrie anyway, I'm off to bed
nothingmuch: have a great flight
nothingmuch good night
thank you
they took away my exit row
so i don't know how fun it'll be
especially since i built up my anticipation
TimToady I try not to anticipate fun with exit rows... 01:51
nothingmuch legroom
TimToady but do you understand English well enough to read this card?
theorbtwo We could have a Beaker bot, that says *meep* whenever somebody says m/!$/.
nothingmuch i think so
but either way that's not the problem
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nothingmuch the problem is that the door is too round and too large to fit on the seats like they explain 01:51
because of the arm rests 01:52
TimToady but can you follow spoken directions?
or any directions, for that matter....
nothingmuch i expect panicking passengers to make it fall and break someone's leg within seconds
i follow driving directions
when I don't notice them clkao takes us to maine
TimToady I expect the clod sitting next to the door to open it and let in the fire...
nothingmuch they have instructions for that too 01:53
but not in english
there's a stick figure with a dotted line looking through the window at fire
and then a big red X
TimToady reddy, aim, ē«
nothingmuch (i had an exit row on chicago -> boston, so i'm addicted now)
yes, like that =)
TimToady flight's at 10:50, or boarding time? 01:55
nothingmuch i dunno
there are some people at the gate so far
but no shouting
TimToady they're shouting vewy, vewy siwentwy. 01:56
nothingmuch meh
the other gates are shouting very loudly
TimToady well, I'm gonna go off and be boring now, so have a good flight, where good is defined as not getting either too wet or too hot. 02:00
dduncan TimToady, re your latest synopsis updates echoed on p6l, those new versions look great
theorbtwo Have a good flight yourself, Larry.
TimToady dduncan: thanks. 02:01
theorbtwo: fleeing now, thanks. &
nothingmuch the PR just said "There is a method to ouro madness, please just work with us" 02:05
nothingmuch prepares to be overbooked again 02:15
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azuroth hi all, I'd like to contribute, but don't know where to start... 02:35
PerlJam azuroth: what do you know? What do you care about? What do you want to do?
documentaion? test? haskell code? perl6 code? 02:36
perl5 code?
02:38 frederico joined
azuroth haskell code, maybe, or perl 6 code 02:44
revdiablo The test suite used to be a good place to start. I don't know if that's still the case... it's pretty well-developed these days. Though I'm sure it could still use some work, it may not be the place to start 02:45
Hopefully someone else will chime in who's been more active than I have =)
azuroth hmm, okay 02:48
PerlJam azuroth: pugs still doesn't implement everything to spec. If you know haskell, you could pick a failing or todo test and make it work. 02:57
obra nothingmuch: still here? 03:13
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robkinyon audreyt: ping 03:33
audreyt robkinyon: commit to svn.openfoundry.org/perlsyck 04:05
lambdabot Title: Revision 144: /
audreyt (yes you are committer now :))
dduncan I have a question about Synopsis 3 before I write to p6l about it ... 04:38
what is ?| exactly?
its mentioned only at the top in a section on bitwise operators 04:39
but part of its description suggests it is the same as || but for its output type
and || is not a bitwise operator
eg, || returns the value of the first true argument, ?| returns simply true or false but not that value 04:40
audreyt yup.
also ?| evaluates both sides
|| may not
dduncan the confusion isn't helped by that ?| isn't in the precedence table
audreyt send a patch to p6l? 04:41
dduncan I'm doing that anyway about other S03 issues ...
audreyt okie
dduncan but wondered if I should also ask about the meaning of ?| there or not
audreyt nod
it's just || that's eager and returns always a Bool 04:42
dduncan it does?
I thought || returned the first value that was true
which may not be a Bool
audreyt sorry
azuroth ?| is || but eager & bool
lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
dduncan yes
audreyt ?| is just ||, _except_ it is eager and returns always a Bool
lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
audreyt azuroth: interested in coding up runpugs? :) 04:43
dduncan so it sounded like ?| belongs more with the tight-or operators rather than the bitwise operators
audreyt azuroth: (as mentioned in pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2006/07/pugs_janitor_ta.html )
dduncan would you agree or disagree?
audreyt I think it's additive 04:44
azuroth the interactive shell one, audreyt? 04:45
audreyt azuroth: aye 04:49
dduncan: I think it's on the additive layer
dduncan well, I've just sent the message to p6l
so check it out ... some of those should be easy fixes 04:51
audreyt okay. 04:55
I need to afk+sleep soon though
dduncan sure
audreyt *wave*
audreyt will be in Mooseland this weekend
dduncan where's that?
audreyt once I got my head fully around it I'll return to Pugsland and get 6.28.0 Done Correctly With Full Moose Power
dduncan: pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2006/07/moosifying_jift.html 04:56
dduncan by the way, will there be more picture taking of live Moose at OSCON?
audreyt I don't know
dduncan as I plan to make heavy use of it and/or contribute to it, might be worth joining the crowd
audreyt I think you'll make a great lambdamoose 04:57
or moosecamel. or something :)
but, *wave* &
dduncan that said, I plan to use it by way of v6, but its still use
yes, yes, & away
audreyt sure, but v6 is all just sugar; if you want anything from the API, need to hack at moose layer
dduncan so I can still contribute to it 04:58
don't let me keep you
from your &ing
05:03 dduncan left
cmarcelo xerox: re: soc - is going fine (specially now i am free from university work/exams), learning lots of haskell and (as a bonus) trying to get pugs compiled with latest GHC every day =o) 05:26
05:27 xinming joined
cmarcelo audreyt: did you get my mail? 05:27
audreyt yes I did, but I'm sleeping
and there doesn't seem to be urgent issues with your progress
so I was... delaying the reply a bit. I'm very happy about your current progress :) 05:28
cmarcelo ehhe.. ok, dont rush, but reply when you can.. 05:29
05:30 scsibug joined
audreyt will do 05:31
cmarcelo audreyt: just a thing, whats your timezone now? boston? 05:33
audreyt boston
cmarcelo audreyt: ok. tomorrow i'll "seek" you, i have to sleep now too =P 05:36
audreyt =) g'nite 05:42
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TreyHarris ?eval my $x = none(0); $x++ 07:30
evalbot_11550 Error: Cannot cast from VJunc none(VInt 0) to Double (VNum)
TreyHarris ?eval my $x = none(0); $x += 1
evalbot_11550 \(1)
07:32 elmex joined
TreyHarris ?eval my %h = { :a<eh>, :b<bee>}; ?( %h{'a'|'b'} eq "eh") 07:32
evalbot_11550 Bool::False
merlyn ... www.twit.tv/floss9 - i was interviewed for an hour, and I talk about perl6
lambdabot Title: FLOSS Weekly with Chris DiBona | TWiT.TV 07:33
TreyHarris merlyn: nice!
07:53 iblechbot joined
ingy nothingmuch: hi 08:06
08:09 pdcawley joined
wolverian wow, this is a really nerdy conversation :) 08:09
pdcawley This is #perl6, what do you expect?
wolverian no, I mean merlyn's interview: www.twit.tv/floss9 08:10
lambdabot Title: FLOSS Weekly with Chris DiBona | TWiT.TV
wolverian I'm not used to _hearing_ conversations like this :) 08:11
merlyn yeah,pretty geeky
08:12 szbalint joined
wolverian energetic too 08:13
merlyn I had fun with that interview 08:14
they cut out about 30% of it
but we had ran over by 30 minutes anyway. :)
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xerox audreyt: ping 09:31
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gaal does pugs' objectspace need to be bootstrapped at runtime? is it easier to do it that way or just more pure? 12:14
objectspace+mop etc.
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Termy is away: breakfast 17:15
17:21 rashakil joined 17:30 miyagawa joined 17:31 rashakil joined
merlyn my interview ... www.twit.tv/floss9 - schedules of perl6 discussed 17:34
lambdabot Title: The TWiT Podcast Network with Leo Laporte
merlyn now you can all make me a liar. :)
audreyt I'll call you a cab :)
audreyt listens 17:35
mm, no transcription 17:36
for the hearing-impaired among us, what did you say about schedule of perl6? :)
Termy is back (gone 00:34:47) 17:50
xerox audreyt - It'd be great if you could tell us some other informations on #haskell about the Cabal affair! I'll be right back. 17:51
18:01 DaGo joined
nothingmuch obra: hi ho 18:08
ingy: hi ho
nothingmuch restarts client for TZ 18:09
18:09 nothingmuch joined 18:11 nothingmuch joined
ingy nothingmuch: hi love 18:27
nothingmuch hi love
gaal nothingmuch! 18:29
nothingmuch gaal!
ingy :)
gaal how was the eventual flight? 18:30
nothingmuch rather eventful
merlyn I basically gave my best guess, which is an alpha release end of this year, beta next summer, and usable for production another six months to a year down.
nothingmuch they were a half hour late due to cargo issues on departure
and then even more late when security jocks raided the plane on arrival
merlyn however, I've said that exact same timeline three years ago. :)
nothingmuch and then said "ok, you can go"
funny thing is 18:31
i forgot to empty/depressurize my stove fuel bottle
so despite having been "selected" i virtually had a bomb on the plane
gaal you could have got into some trouble for that... 18:32
nothingmuch yes
that was very stupid of me
but even stupider of them for missing it
gaal has to go off to the store for a bit... welcome home 18:33
svnbot6 r11551 | fglock++ | PCR Pugs::Runtime::Common - updated var names 18:35
18:38 fglock joined
svnbot6 r11552 | fglock++ | v6 - added sample script 'lrep.pl' (not yet working) 18:38
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svnbot6 r11553 | fglock++ | v6 - 'echo 123.say | perl lrep.pl' 21:03
fglock lrep.pl is: ' use v6-alpha; $*IN.slurp.eval; ' 21:05
nnunley fglock++ 21:11
fglock nnunley: hi! 21:12
vsoni seen audreyt 21:19
jabbot vsoni: audreyt was seen 3 hours 42 minutes 59 seconds ago
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svnbot6 r11555 | fglock++ | v6 - parser: a block may start an expression 21:54
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svnbot6 r11556 | fglock++ | v6 - trying to make sleep() work from the prelude 22:15
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