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Set by Juerd on 27 August 2006.
markstos This feels like a bug. I can't store and execute a code reference in an attribute: 00:01
?eval class Foo { has $.a is rw; method BUILD { $.a = sub {}; $.a(); } } Foo.new;
00:01 evalbot_12805 is now known as evalbot_12822
evalbot_12822 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "$.a" 00:01
pasteling "markstos" at 12.176.101.89 pasted "Bug? A method appears to be successfully called on a random string." (16 lines, 376B) at sial.org/pbot/19331 00:05
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araujo hello 00:09
markstos Hello araujo 00:11
araujo hi there markstos :-) 00:12
ingy anyone know or guess whether I can "upgrade" debian unstable to ubuntu dapper? 00:18
markstos ingy: I think not. I don't think they are that compatible. 00:19
But I'm mostly a Mandriva user, so get a second opinion.
ingy k 00:25
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TreyHarris markstos: 00:30
markstos listens
TreyHarris ?eval class Foo { has $.a is rw; method BUILD { $!a = sub { say "hi!" }; } }; my $a = Foo.new; $a.a.()
evalbot_12822 OUTPUT[hi! ] Bool::True
TreyHarris inside BUILD, your object isn't built yet
so you can't call methods
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markstos TreyHarris: pugs lets you: 00:33
?eval class Foo { method BUILD { self.see; } method see { say "saw"; }; } my $a = Foo.new;
evalbot_12822 OUTPUT[saw ] \Foo.new()
TreyHarris you're not actually accessing the object in that case except for method dispatch (which only requires an actual instantiated class which has already happened by that time), so that's possible. but what you want to do is chicken-and-egg, I think 00:35
but this works: 00:36
markstos I don't think so. Adding this line did allow the callback to run in BUILD: instead of call $.a(), I added: $aa = $.a, and then called $aa(), that worked. 00:37
TreyHarris ?eval class Foo { has $.a is rw; method BUILD { self.a = sub { say "hi!" }; } }; my $a = Foo.new; $a.a.()
evalbot_12822 OUTPUT[hi! ] Bool::True
TreyHarris so maybe it is a bug
but the Synopses do mention that inside BUILD you'll probably use $! rather than $. ....
markstos I tried $!, too. Same result.
TreyHarris eh? 00:38
?eval class Foo { has $.a is rw; method BUILD { $!a = sub { say "hi!" }; } }; my $a = Foo.new; $a.a.()
evalbot_12822 OUTPUT[hi! ] Bool::True
TreyHarris you're not getting that?
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markstos ?eval class Foo { has $!a is rw; method BUILD { $!a = sub { say "hi!" }; $!a() } }; 00:40
evalbot_12822 undef
agentzh TreyHarris: why did you say that the synopses on feather was two weeks behind?
TreyHarris: the last update to the syn repos was r11527, made by audreyt according to my p6l mails. :) 00:41
TreyHarris hmmmm
agentzh TreyHarris: please correct me if i was wrong. :) 00:42
TreyHarris agentzh: one sec
agentzh the rev number of the syn repos is not increasing one by one. 00:44
because syn/ is a subdirectory per se.
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agentzh hence the rev number on the page of svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/design/syn/ is somewhat misleading. :) 00:48
lambdabot Title: Revision 11549: /doc/trunk/design/syn
TreyHarris ah, i see my problem 00:49
agentzh :)
TreyHarris i thought i saw a change to S03 in the svn logs... it was to S02
so when I searched S03 for it on feather.... i thought it was out of date
markstos It would be nice to have a more helpful error messages, when one commits this mistake, as Perl5ers like me are likely to do:
?eval class Foo {} Foo.new( 'a' => 'b' );
TreyHarris since it said "Aug 16"
evalbot_12822 Error: Must only use named arguments to new() constructor
TreyHarris that's not helpful? 00:50
?eval class Foo {} Foo.new( a => 'b' );
evalbot_12822 Foo.new(("a" => "b"),)
markstos It would be more helpful to say: "Found quoted key in Pair passed to new(), expected unquoted key." 00:51
When it says "Must used named arguments", I think: I /was/ using named arguments!
In Perl5, Hash quoted and unquoted hash keys mean the same thing.
s/Hash // 00:52
TreyHarris but you weren't. you were using Perl 5 "named arguments". Perl 6 actually has a first-class citizen called named arguments, and you weren't using one
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markstos I know that now, but a more helpful error message would help new folks learn that faster, and with less frustration. 00:53
Alternatively, something like "use warnings" for Perl5 would be nice, which gives more detail about each error, including common pitfalls. 00:54
agentzh markstos: pugs has been optimized for feature experimentation or verification. :)
audreyt: trypugs (or webpugs) is sort of beyond my capability (i'm still new to AJAX), so i'd return to the pugs test suite. :) 00:55
markstos That's fine. I'm providing feedback from a users perspective. If you want to more users, you'll have to eventually optimize for them, too!
agentzh markstos: indeed.
markstos Otherwise, it may never be Christmas....
agentzh the problem is that we're having too few audreys here. :)
markstos I don't think so. I see a website that could be in better shape, docs that could written and clarified, and tests that could be written in Perl6. Those are are different skill sets, and you don't have to be a uber-hacker to contribute. 00:56
agentzh the christmas is still quite far from us, given the current status of the perl 6 language, the test suite, and the implementation. 00:57
markstos I don't know. As I port CGI::Application, pugs has been working rather well for me, in terms of correctness. For me, it's a bigger problem that I don't find the docs accessible to confirm if I have a problem with my code, or if there is a pugsbug. So far, I haven't found any show stopping bugs in pugs, mostly missing features. 00:59
agentzh markstos: what you're saying is all true. i'm talking about the tasks which require skills of "audrey level" anyway. :)
markstos Of course, it's particularly slow, but it's generally good enough for people to port real applications to it, at least in terms of the features available, even if the performance lacks now.
agentzh markstos: oh, you must be very lucky then! 01:00
TreyHarris agentzh: but let's not get too doom-and-gloom. the progress in the past year has been incredible, and it's been accelerating, especially if you look at it quarter-to-quarter rather than day to day (when there are fits and starts)
markstos Users can become contributers and contributers can be become uberhackers.
It's not too early to start paying attention to users.
agentzh TreyHarris: i was not complaining, or i wouldn't be here. :)
markstos: yes, i agree everything you've said. 01:02
markstos Something like the named parameters error message could well become an FAQ on the channel for new users, but a better error message could save everyone that headache.
agentzh markstos: i'm only telling the reality or something like that. :)
what i want to say is that we just need to be patient enough. :) 01:03
markstos: btw, i'll be very happy if you add that warning message to pugs' src/ :) 01:04
or get audreyt or someone to do that. :)
markstos agentzh: Maybe I'll poke around. I have limited Haskell skills, but I think I'm equipped to update a string... 01:05
agentzh good luck then. ;-)
markstos Uh oh. Tornado warning here. I'll have to check the wifi in the basement... 01:08
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markstos notes there /is/ wifi in the basement, and hunkers down for the storm to pass. 01:17
SamB markstos: but... if the storm hits, will there still be? 01:21
markstos If the storm hits, my 24/7 hosting facility downtown will be a bigger concern.... 01:22
(It's my business, not just where I store files!)
svnbot6 r12823 | agentz++ | [TASKS] 01:26
r12823 | agentz++ | * added a new task that we need a new smoke client to
r12823 | agentz++ | upload tests.yml as well as the HTML matrix, and a new
r12823 | agentz++ | smoke server which makes .yml files accessible to all
r12823 | agentz++ | (especially to feather). :)
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markstos notes the electricity blinks for the first time... 01:26
agentzh markstos: ohhh
markstos agentz: Are you aware of Smolder ? It's a smoke server written in Perl with YAML support. 01:27
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agentzh aye ;-) 01:27
once we have .yml on the smoke server, feather can use the latest one to render the synopsis HTML. hence no need to do autosmoking ourselves. :) 01:29
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xdg If I want to test the Perl 6 CPAN Stack on win32, what modules should I be installing? just v6.pm? Or others? 01:35
markstos Install v6, it will hopefully handle the dependencies for you. 01:36
xdg OK. I'm manually smoking Strawberry Perl alpha 2 prerelease 01:37
So I'm trying to test various strange things that might cause problems.
markstos Ok. I'm listening to hail through the heating ducts.
xdg That's funky. (Remind me where you are again?) 01:38
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markstos I'm in Richmond, Indiana, taking shelter in my basement while a tornado passes. 01:39
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diakopter hi markstos 01:39
markstos Hello diakopter.
svnbot6 r12824 | markstos++ | Attempt a more helpful error message for "Must only pass named parameters..."
r12824 | markstos++ | (Sorry about the long line. My Haskell-fu is weak. )
xdg We had a tornado watch in NYC last week. Rained cats and dogs, but no hail (and no spouts, either) 01:40
diakopter anyone going to the Chicago hackathon in November?
markstos I lived in Manhattan for a college semester. I enjoyed my time there
01:41 agentzh left
markstos diakopter: I didn't know about, but I'm relatively close by. ( < 5hrs by car ). 01:41
What's the focus ?
diakopter hackathon.info/
lambdabot Title: Chicago Perl Hackathon: Nov 10-12, 2006, Crystal Lake, IL
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markstos Here's another error message that could use potential improvement. For multi methods, you can get the message: "No compatible subroutine found". I think it should be split into two messages: 1. (same as above). and 2. "Found 3 potential subroutines, but none with compatible signatures". That gives you more feedback about exactly where the problem is. 01:49
TreyHarris markstos: i agree, but i'm not sure of the prioritization here. i've generally kept quiet about confusing error messages, because i'd rather the new object model and captures get finished and stabilized first. i think getting good error reporting could be a tremendous timesink 01:51
i just pretend that any error is like BASIC's "syntax error", and if it tells me more than that, that's just gravy. 01:52
markstos OTOH, I just commited an improvement to an error message. They are often string changes and light Haskell work, not the domain of an uberhacker. 01:54
I used to improve some of the darcs strings, even though I only learned enough Haskell to do "string\n"++"string" and "make" 01:55
The one I suggested above does involve a little logic change in Haskell, which I'm not ready to dive into yet.
A good question is: What's the most direct route to the tipping point: When a tremendous amount of energy forms around it, and there are lots of tuits? Is focusing on features the shortest route, or is polishing a smaller feature set a shorter route? I don't have answers, but I know that sometimes answers are surprising. Sometimes little things like string changes can make a big difference, because they turn frustrated users into interested us 01:58
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ajs_home Does anyone know off the top of their heads (without dragging the whole channel OT), what the most efficient YAML parser is out there? I just crushed the performance of a CGI program by converting its data to YAML... :( 02:19
xdg I think it's YAML::Syck 02:23
ajs_home Thanks... yeah, I just spotted that. Checking it out now
TreyHarris markstos: well, i think the whole pugs project showed that. initially there were people who were rather hostile to energy being drawn away from parrot
TreyHarris must decommute now & 02:24
markstos ...but know I would say that interest in pugs probably interest in parrot... 02:25
xdg For anyone working on v6, it looks like somewhere in the chain there is a dependency on Cache::Cache, which depends on Error, and the latest version of that hangs during testing on Win32. Not fun.
ajs_home Every time I see that nomenclature of "foo &" I'm reminded how how simple and powerful the Unix shell was....
xdg: there is nothing that I think has done more to errode the Perl user-base than the fact that tests rot. 02:26
TreyHarris ajs_home: was? still is! i'm still typing here in the background, even though the other me is busy decommuting ;-)
ajs_home heh
markstos Your joking. 02:27
TreyHarris &'s for real this time
markstos We know you are really giving voice commands to your treo while driving.
ajs_home markstos: If you are talking to me, no I'm serious. I've never seen such anger at a programming language as when an end user is told to type "sudo cpan Foo::Bar" and they get 20 test failures in their fact 02:29
er face
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markstos ajs_home: I wasn't talking to you, but maybe you would be happy to know I removed tests against Google from the WWW::Mechanize suite. They kept breaking because Google changed their pages... 02:36
ajs_home hah! That's got to have made google happy ;) 02:37
markstos My personal favorite failing CPAN test that I've written was one that I (accidently) constructed such that it passed for me, but when people tested it from other time zones, it failed... 02:38
what a pain to fix.
ajs_home ouch
I love the idea of having tests run, but in practice it seems like the pain gets shifted to the people who have the least time and ability to track down the problem in most cases. 02:39
I've tried to think of a way to solve that for Perl 6.... nothing yet
markstos I always thought tests were good for exposing bugs triggered by different environments. 02:40
ajs_home They're great for that... but if the trade-off is user pain, that's not always a trade-off you want. There must be a middle-ground 02:41
markstos beta testeres. 02:45
s/e//g
Also, 02:46
interns.
ajs_home Good ideas... ideas that cost $.... 02:48
markstos Well, there's an automated build farm, but that costs money.
There's having every environment in your home office, and testing it yourself, but that costs money. 02:49
ajs_home There's throwing money at it, but... well.
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markstos It would be nice if "Parameters and Arguments" quickly mentioned the difference between parameters and arguments. 03:18
feather.perl6.nl/syn/S06.html#Param..._arguments
lambdabot Title: S06
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audreyt markstos: send patch to p6l? 04:18
audreyt gets ready for $job (horribly late)
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svnbot6 r12825 | agentz++ | [t/syntax/comments.t] 05:26
r12825 | agentz++ | - added some more tests. all tests now pass.
05:27 agentzh joined
agentzh thanks to audreyt++'s recent utf-8 fixes. :) 05:28
05:28 xinming_ is now known as xinming
agentzh many new tests for pugs were lost in the hardware failure this noon. :( 05:30
now i'm rewriting them. :-/
that old nasty machine is really HATEFUL!!!
05:31 christo joined
Yobert Hey do you know what would be cool in perl 6 05:35
A special variable for when you do a for (@array) style loop
it would always have the index of the array
araujo ? 05:36
you mean the current iteration index?
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gaal ?eval my @array = <moose elk caribou>; for @array.kv -> $i, $val { say "$i. $val" } 05:40
05:40 evalbot_12822 is now known as evalbot_12825
evalbot_12825 OUTPUT[0. moose 1. elk 2. caribou ] undef 05:40
gaal Yobert: good enough? :)
masak :) 05:41
ask, and ye shall find perl6 probably already has it
buu Bah, way too clumsy. 05:44
araujo likes it 05:45
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gaal buu: what don't you like about it, the need for an explicit variable? for an explicit method call on @array? 05:46
buu gaal: Both.
agentzh has %=DATA been specified?
svnbot6 r12826 | agentz++ | [t/syntax/comments.t]
r12826 | agentz++ | - added tests for "=begin comment/=end comment" from
r12826 | agentz++ | t/syntax/POD.t
r12826 | agentz++ | - added tests for "=for comment"
agentzh i saw $=DATA and @=DATA in S02, but not %=DATA.
gaal okay then: { my $i; for @arr -> $k { NEXT { $i++ } ... } }.() 05:47
I don't think an implicit "current iterant index" variable makes sense. how would you use it in nested loops? 05:48
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masak if I wanted, could I throw an extra method each_with_index into Array at runtime? 05:49
I think that would be the cleanest way in that case
buu gaal: It would always be the innermost loop
gaal: Or whatever. Honestly it can do whatever as long as it exists. 05:50
gaal well, the point of having something like this is that you can mention the index if you suddenly remember you need it without refactoring your code. 05:51
Yobert yeah, exactly
I just want a quickie way
gaal but if it's always the innermost, or "whatever", then you can hardly do that
buu gaal: Sure you can 05:52
Yobert it could have local scope so it'd work in nested lops
*loops
gaal buu: well, by all means, propose something on p6-l
buu 95% of the time it would be in the right scope anyway
gaal: They're scary =[
masak buu: if you don't, I will :) 05:53
buu Go for it.
masak 'kay
buu Magic special variable, scoped inside the loop.
masak np
masak goes off to write to p6-l
gaal masak: things to consider: 05:54
svnbot6 r12827 | agentz++ | [t/syntax/comments.t]
r12827 | agentz++ | - added even more tests and smartlinks.
gaal - what if you're iterating over something that isn't an array? still set the index?
Yobert well
for a file glob
it could be the byte position
gaal - does 'next' skip an index or not? (surely on arrays it should, not clear in other cases)
Yobert I'm sure there are a zillion perly things you could do 05:55
gaal byte position? of what?
masak gaal: I'll throw your questions in verbatim
gaal masak: go ahead. I'm not convinced this is a good idea though :)
Yobert well, i guess something like STDIN doesn't have a byte position really.. or does it. I was thinking in a while (<STDIN>) loop you could have the byte position or something
buu gaal: It doesn't *really* matter either way
gaal: I'm fine with every iteration increases 05:56
gaal buu: I don't understand what really matters.
Yobert sorry for my perl5 examples I'm not confident yet, haha
gaal Yobert: ah, that's not a glob :)
buu gaal: That it works for array/list iterations =]
Yobert sorry.. just a filehandle in general i meant
gaal Yobert: sure, there's a "tell" in Perl 5, and in Perl 6 you'll presumably have both the OS byte position and the character position. 05:57
buu: that's what I'm not convinced about. you have a specific problem you want to make prettier, and you don't care about the rest 05:58
any program can be compressed to 1 byte with a certain compression algorithm
we're not aiming for that though :)
buu gaal: I care, but in limited ways.
Yobert gaal: Ahh.. I see. I've never used tell, that's probably my problem ;)
buu gaal: My point was more than either alternative suggestion was perfectly workable.
agentzh how can i read a single line from a Perl 6 file handle? my $line = =$fh?
gaal Yobert: well, tell is a system call, so it's not for free. 05:59
agentzh: yes
brb
Yobert gaal: I see. So it would still be cool to have a builtin index
agentzh gaal: thanks
?eval my $fh = undef; my $line = =$fh; $line 06:03
gaal Yobert: presumably $fh.position :chars or something shorter queries Perl's notion
agentzh gaal: the above line hangs in pugs. :( 06:04
gaal hmm.
agentzh gaal: could you make it return undef immediately?
gaal looking
shouldn't though. should fail""
agentzh :) 06:05
okay, fail is also fine. :)
*failing
agentzh hates segfaulting.
06:06 Yobert left
agentzh ?eval 1+2 06:06
gaal why does AUTHORS have the BOM again?
agentzh oh, i've killed evalbot. :(
BOM?
gaal en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_Order_Mark 06:07
agentzh k 06:08
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agentzh what should the elems of @=DATA be? 06:15
each of @=DATA should be a single line or a single DATA block? 06:16
and should the elems contain leading or trailing newlines?
pasteling "masak" at 130.238.83.176 pasted "Ok, so here's what I've come up with. Last call for changes. :)" (41 lines, 1.7K) at sial.org/pbot/19336 06:19
svnbot6 r12828 | agentz++ | [t/syntax/POD.t] 06:21
r12828 | agentz++ | - added new tests for %=POD{'DATA'}, $=DATA, and @=DATA
r12828 | agentz++ | (all tests are failing now)
masak buu: does the email capture your wishes? 06:22
svnbot6 r12829 | agentz++ | [t/syntax/POD.t]
r12829 | agentz++ | - fixed broken smartlinks
agentzh xinming: would you please merge the tests in t/builtins/quote_basic.t and t/operators/quoting.t? 06:23
gaal ah, agentzh, it's not hanging, it's waiting on $*ARGS -- presumably stdin
agentzh xinming: i think they had better be put in the same place (or same directory at least)
gaal: ohh 06:24
masak gaal: sounds like a situation that would arise quite often
agentzh gaal: so this is expected?
masak gaal: isn't there a way to always feed $*ARGS to evalbot?
agentzh the file handle is undef anyway...
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gaal masak: well, it's like what you get when you put on the command line 06:25
% grep moose
masak anyway, anybody has any last comments on the p6-l mail? sial.org/pbot/19336
lambdabot Title: Paste #19336 from "masak" at 130.238.83.176
masak in other case, I'll just send it along
gaal looking
masak gaal: yes, but evalbot never gets any input from anywhere 06:26
gaal: making it wait indefinitely does nobody any good
gaal: better to have some "standard" standard input stream for it
agentzh i kinda dislike the t/builtins/ directory since too many unrelated tests are living there. :-/
gaal no, it oughta be caught in the evalbot harness, not hacked into pugs
masak nod 06:27
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masak 'course 06:27
gaal masak: I don't get the each_with index thing. How is it different from .kv? 06:28
masak gaal: it isn't, really
gaal (except that it reverses the order? and is longer? :) 06:29
masak maybe it's a bad example
I just wanted to show that ruby has thought of this somehow
gaal anyone happy with the ruby solution would surely be fine with the Perl 6 spelling?
masak yes... except...
gaal uh, it's semantically precisely the same as .kv
masak they have a _method_ for it 06:30
gaal .kv is a method
masak which makes the purpose so much clearer
.kv doesn't really do it for me
gaal ?
masak it doesn't say "index"
it says "key"
maybe it'll grow on me, but right now it feels every so slightly hackish 06:31
gaal er, so you're just unhappy with the name, not the functionality?
masak kinda
but I'll go back and review the ruby example
svnbot6 r12830 | agentz++ | [t/operators/quoting.t]
r12830 | agentz++ | - fixed one smartlink.
gaal so you're not certain, like buu is, that there needs to be an implicit magical?
masak no, not at all 06:32
buu I'm all about the implicit magic.
masak the more I look at the .kv example, the more I think "this is quite ok"
gaal "use DWIM"
masak sends the mail now 06:33
& 06:35
buu Bah. I hate the .kv example.
It's long and useless 06:36
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clkao env is now temp right? 06:39
gaal no, context 06:40
temp is what was 'local' 06:41
clkao so env is now context? 06:45
i saw some stuff in tests with env
gaal clkao: I think that's wrong, but better check the synopses 06:46
clkao i can't grep out anything about context variables ecept $+foo
gaal that's the mention, but there's something about declaration. hold on 06:47
L<S09/Names/"The C<CONTEXT> pseudo-package"> 06:49
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svnbot6 r12831 | agentz++ | [t/statements] 07:04
r12831 | agentz++ | - added repeat.t with the tests from t/statements/loop.t.
r12831 | agentz++ | - added several smartlinks.
r12832 | agentz++ | [t/statements/loop.t]
r12832 | agentz++ | - removed tests specific to the repeat statment. (they
r12832 | agentz++ | have gone into t/statements/repeat.t.
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svnbot6 r12833 | agentz++ | [t/statements/loop.t] 07:07
r12833 | agentz++ | - fixed the ``plan'' number.
agentzh bbiab 07:22
svnbot6 r12834 | agentz++ | [t/operators/quoting.t]
r12834 | agentz++ | - added many tests for unicode-delimited q-style strings
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svnbot6 r12835 | yiyihu++ | r12866@Laptop: xinming | 2006-08-29 15:45:57 +0000 08:07
r12835 | yiyihu++ | agentz++ pointed it t/builtins/quote_basic.t
r12835 | yiyihu++ | and t/operators/quoting.t should merge.
r12835 | yiyihu++ | r12878@Laptop: xinming | 2006-08-29 16:01:18 +0000
r12835 | yiyihu++ | agentz++ pointed out that t/operators/quoting.t and t/operators/quote_basic.t
r12835 | yiyihu++ | should merge.
xinming :-/
xinming thinks, svk sucks sometimes 08:08
wolverian all software sucks. it's just a matter of sucking less. 08:11
masak xinming: anything in particular? 08:35
there's always ways to improve things
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gaal hmm, I wonder if agentzh's bug report should in fact be fixed in pugs. to wit: 08:47
$ perl -e 'my $x; print readline $x'
# immediate nothing
the kink is that readline is currently defined (?IO) in Prim, so it has no way of distinguishing an actual undef arg and a missing arg 08:48
the fix to that is to split to two readlines: op0 "readline" and op1 "readline" of sig (IO) 08:49
this is so that the legitimate "say item readline" still works (ie reads from stdin)
if Prim were in newval, perhaps that could have been made nicer by passing a UFailure "missing param" instead of an unsidcriminating VUndef. 08:50
I gotta moose for a while, so if anyone wants an easy Haskell task, go for it..
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agentzh xinming++ # unified two quoting-related tests. 10:39
well, i mean test files. :) 10:40
svnbot6 r12836 | agentz++ | [t/operators/quoting.t] 10:44
r12836 | agentz++ | - fixed a smartlink.
agentzh i think we had better rename t/subroutines/ to t/blocks/. anyway, blocks are much general then subroutines in Perl 6's termilogy. 10:48
you know, we have pointy.t and closure.t under t/subroutines, which are not subroutines. 10:49
svnbot6 r12837 | bsmith++ | Added a ranlib step after embedding the judy libraries into HsJudy. 10:50
r12838 | agentz++ | - moved return.t and return_from_inner_block.t from 10:53
r12838 | agentz++ | t/statements/ to t/subroutines/.
gaal the genesis for names under t/ is the Perl 5 test suite. but since this is indeed a change from Perl 5 changing it looks reasonable to me. 10:54
agentzh gaal: okay. :) 10:59
svnbot6 r12839 | agentz++ | [t/no_implicit_block.t]
r12839 | agentz++ | - added this new test file to test the nonexistence of
r12839 | agentz++ | implicit blocks around standard control structures.
r12839 | agentz++ | currently only if/given/while are tested. more tests
r12839 | agentz++ | soon. :)
r12838 | agentz++ | - moved return.t and return_from_inner_block.t from
r12838 | agentz++ | t/statements/ to t/subroutines/.
gaal agentzh: but I'd be happy to see more discussion on this before svn mv. 11:01
p6-c it? 11:02
agentzh gaal: i'm just about to commit. ;-)
gaal okay, that works too :)
nothingmuch gaal: code2.0beta.co.uk/moose/svn/notes/nuffinmop/
lambdabot Title: Revision 1855: /notes/nuffinmop
gaal ooh 11:03
agentzh nothingmuch: are you agree to rename t/subroutines to t/blocks?
nothingmuch i don't remember what's in t/subroutines
but in general since every block is a closure... *shrug*
agentzh hehe
nothingmuch what's the rationale?
agentzh we have pointy.t and closure.t and etc etc under t/subroutines. :) 11:04
nothingmuch ah
heh
agentzh pointy blocks are not subrountes.
nothingmuch sure, sounds fair
agentzh okay :)
svnbot6 r12840 | agentz++ | - renamed t/subroutines to t/blocks with permission from 11:14
r12840 | agentz++ | gaal++ and nothingmuch++.
agentzh oh, i just see S06 is titled "subroutines". 11:15
following this reasoning, i should revert r12840. :)
any idea?
nothingmuch agentzh: or submit a doc patch =) 11:16
agentzh oh, is there a better name for that? 11:17
nothingmuch blocks?
agentzh S04 is already named "blocks and statements". :(
nothingmuch mmm 11:19
well, the tests do cover s04 and s06 simultaneously
agentzh oh 11:20
but most of them are for S06.
okay, i'll forget the name of S06 and use t/blocks. 11:21
if anyone else feels t/subroutines is better, feel free to rename back. :)
11:21 diakopter joined
agentzh (but don't svn revert, since i'm going to commit updates to t/blocks) 11:22
11:24 xinming joined
nothingmuch agentzh++ 11:26
agentzh :) 11:27
nothingmuch tries to get the compile time object protocol down on paper
what happenned to jabbot, btw?
svnbot6 r12841 | agentz++ | [t/statements/while.t] 11:29
r12841 | agentz++ | - seriously reviewed all the tests and did some code
r12841 | agentz++ | cleanup.
r12841 | agentz++ | - more smartlinks.
r12842 | agentz++ | [t/statements/no_implicit_block.t] 11:35
r12842 | agentz++ | - added tests for the unless/for/loop control structures.
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svnbot6 r12843 | agentz++ | [docs/feather/syn_index.html] 11:44
r12843 | agentz++ | - made the synopses much more remarkable.
r12844 | agentz++ | [t/README]
r12844 | agentz++ | - now that we have almost all the features of
r12844 | agentz++ | util/catalog_tests.pl implemented in
r12844 | agentz++ | util/smartlinks.pl, we now claim smartlinks.pl as
r12844 | agentz++ | the main cross-referencer. :) 11:45
agentzh is happily kicking off items from his todo list. 11:47
svnbot6 r12845 | agentz++ | [util/catalog_tests.pl]
r12845 | agentz++ | - added note for util/smartlinks.pl.
r12845 | agentz++ | - fixed a typo in the source.
r12846 | agentz++ | [t/statements/unless.t] 12:00
r12846 | agentz++ | - reviewed all the tests
r12846 | agentz++ | - tweaked the code to conform with modern Perl 6
r12846 | agentz++ | - added more tests
r12846 | agentz++ | - added smartlinks.
r12847 | agentz++ | [t/statements/unless.t]
r12847 | agentz++ | - adjusted the plan number.
nothingmuch agentzh++ # not that you need any more ;-) 12:05
agentzh nothingmuch: (?) 12:06
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nothingmuch agentzh: karma 12:08
svnbot6 r12848 | agentz++ | [t/statements/until.t]
r12848 | agentz++ | - reviewd all the tests.
nothingmuch goes to sweat a bit
svnbot6 r12848 | agentz++ | - fixed the lexical problem.
r12848 | agentz++ | - added a smartlink.
agentzh ah, hehe :)
agentzh collects all the ++'s for him. 12:09
svnbot6 r12849 | agentz++ | [t/statements/while.t] 12:14
r12849 | agentz++ | - changed the smartlink to point to a more appropriate
r12849 | agentz++ | position in the synopses.
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audreyt Check your feather email | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | www.treehugger.com/files/th_images/paradigm.jpg
audreyt goes back from $job and saw huge number of checkins 12:27
agentzh++
agentzh :)
audreyt unfortunately, I need to crash now... very long day today with lots of Haskell hacking 12:28
Limbic_Region sleep well
audreyt it's really a good tool to deal with rapidly shifting specs ;) 12:29
Limbic_Region hope you got my note that embedded AS Perl works
audreyt I did. yay!
I wonder if we can turn on embp5 by default now
but I'll sleep on it
Limbic_Region well, I have it set as a perm env var so I can certainly let you know when it is b0rk now 12:31
audreyt cool :) ciao!
agentzh night, audreyt. :) 12:32
svnbot6 r12850 | agentz++ | [t/statements/statement_modifiers.t]
r12850 | agentz++ | - reviewed all the tests
r12850 | agentz++ | - simplified most of them
r12850 | agentz++ | - fixed the smartlink
agentzh oh, pugs doesn't support postfix given. 12:42
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agentzh gaal: any quick guide to add support to that under src/? 12:42
(if such quick guide exists)
Limbic_Region agentzh - if there isn't an existing failing test case (which I assume there isn't since you would be linking to it), then please write one
agentzh ;-)
LR: i've already written one. :)
Limbic_Region well, if this client didn't eat plus symbols I would agentz plus plus you 12:43
agentzh hehe
thanks
i've been reading tests in the whole afternoon, so i can quickly commit many updates tonight. :) 12:44
audreyt where is postfix given specced? 12:45
agentzh audreyt: S04
# L<S04/The C<for> statement/"given" "use a private instance of" $_> 12:46
audreyt: but i think you should be sleeping. ;-)
audreyt indeed. implemented
agentzh audreyt++
ohhhh, smartlinks.pl is really really helpful while writing tests for pugs. :) 12:48
Limbic_Region well, it is really helpful to the extent it can let us know where we don't have tests (and possibly implementation) for that which is specced
and that is really really helpful 12:49
agentzh aye
Limbic_Region but too bad it didn't have some type of mind probe where it could be pointed at @larry to discover what is not-yet specced
agentzh hehe.
LR: oh, no problem, that is *my* task. 12:50
Limbic_Region agentzh - at the risk of bringing her back to the channel - what prompted all the haskell hacking today? I didn't see a lot going on the list so I presume it wasn't related to changing specs 12:52
svnbot6 r12851 | agentz++ | [t/statements/statement_modifiers.t]
r12851 | agentz++ | - added tests for use of private instance of $_ when
r12851 | agentz++ | postfix for and given are used.
r12851 | agentz++ | - more smartlinks.
Limbic_Region and yet she implied rapidly changing specs were a good thing
agentzh LR: no clue. :( 12:53
LR: maybe $job?
i think she said Haskell is a good thing to rapidly changing specs. 12:54
audreyt $job
agentzh not the specs themselves.
audreyt hacking on 面äŗ†?ēˆøåŖ½é€™é‚Šä¹Ÿęœ‰čØ±å¤šęœ‰č¶£ēš„ęœ‹å‹ļ¼Œę­”čæŽå¦³åƒåŠ å…±åŒēš„ę“»å‹•ć€‚ęœ‰ę™‚é–“ęˆ‘å€‘ēˆ¶å„³å…©äŗŗäø€é½Šē”Øäø€ę¬”午餐ļ¼Œå„½å„½äŗ«å—귱談ēš„ęØ‚č¶£ļ¼Œå¦‚何?
Vater
oops!
mauke AIIRRR
agentzh cd audreyt && make realclean
audreyt wow, mispaste mail from my data ;)
audreyt has to remember it's not OSX anymore
anyway. it's $job, hacking on svn.openfoundry.org/openafp/ 12:55
lambdabot Title: Revision 31: /
mauke weirdly enough I can see all those characters
agentzh oh, i can't understand those characters even if i speak chinese.
mauke: can you grok them? 12:56
mauke hah, no
agentzh grins.
mauke win xp <- putty <- linux <- screen <- irssi, and it just works. I think that's impressive.
agentzh indeed! 12:57
audreyt mumbles something about X and Gtk having two distinct clipboards.
agentzh but i'm using the path freenode <- waysonline proxy <- mIRC <- win xp
audreyt anyway, postfix given is in.
agentzh audreyt++++++ 12:58
svnbot6 r12852 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Eval/Pugs.Parser: Implement postfix "given" as
r12852 | audreyt++ | requested by agentzh++.
agentzh (brb) 12:59
audreyt (bbl, g'nite)
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wolverian spec.pugscode.org doesn't respond 13:04
agentzh spleep time already & 13:05
13:05 agentzh left, fglock joined
svnbot6 r12853 | agentz++ | [t/statements/statement_modifiers.t] 13:07
r12853 | agentz++ | - fixed a failing test.
r12853 | agentz++ | - with Audrey' last commit, all tests here are
r12853 | agentz++ | successful!
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svnbot6 r12854 | fglock++ | * v6 - Pugs::Emitter::Perl6::Perl5::Perl5Hash - (experimental) 13:40
r12854 | fglock++ | a compile-time object that represents an unboxed hash;
r12854 | fglock++ | attempting to reduce the combinatorial complexity in the emitter
mago ping fglock 14:02
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fglock mago: pong 14:02
mago fglock: /j #perl.br 14:03
fglock ok
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svnbot6 r12855 | fglock++ | - misc/pX/fglock/Perl5.pm - optimized emitter; ' %hash5.isa("X") ' compiles to ' "X" eq "Hash" ' 14:22
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svnbot6 r12856 | fglock++ | - mv Emitter/Perl6/Perl5 to misc/pX/fglock/Pugs-Compiler-Perl6/lib... 14:32
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svnbot6 r12857 | fglock++ | * v6 - added Emitter/Perl6/Perl5/Perl5Array.pm; Perl5Scalar.pm 14:38
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Limbic_Region anyone know how to run a specific test only under the smoke harness? 14:48
I ask because something that passes from the command line fails under the harness
nevermind, found it from the Makefile.PL 14:49
bah, that didn't work - oh well 15:05
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kolibrie Limbic_Region: does util/prove6 do what you want? 15:25
or you want to make smoke <some way to specify which test>? 15:26
Limbic_Region kolibrie - I don't know about util/prove6 15:27
what I can say is this
pugs -Iblib6/lib t/examples/all_parse.t
works
but the test fails completely under the harness 15:28
so I want to see why
I have to go to lunch for a meeting in a minute but if you could figure out how to test that under the harness or verify prove6 does the same thing - I would appreciate it 15:29
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gaal Limbic_Region: export HARNESS_PERL=./pugs ; export PERL6LIB=blib6/lib ; prove t/some/test.t 15:37
15:38 xinming joined
gaal or in a pinch, $EDITOR util/yaml_harness.pl , change the default test inclusion list, and make smoke 15:38
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nothingmuch lambdabot: @seen luqui? 16:29
lambdabot I haven't seen luqui?.
nothingmuch lambdabot: @seen luqui
lambdabot I saw luqui leaving #perl6 13 days, 21 hours, 1 minute and 58 seconds ago, and .
nothingmuch damnit, every time
fglock I can't remember how to coerce an array into a hash in perl5 16:30
audreyt {@{$a}} 16:31
[particle] my %hash= %{[ @array ]};
audreyt er no, no [].
avar my %hash= %{@{[ @array ]}}; :)
just do my %hash = @array if @array % 2; 16:32
fglock perl -e ' @a="a","b"; print %{[ @a ]}{a}; ' - doesn't work
avar except without the undef behaviour
[particle] fglock: change % to $ in that exapmle
audreyt fglock: you've been brainwashed by p6... 16:33
avar my %hash; %hash = @array unless @array % 2;
I mean
audreyt $ perl -le 'print ${{"a","b"}}{a}'
b
$ perl -le 'print {"a","b"}->{a}'
b
pick one :) 16:34
xerox ->{a} ? :D
audreyt sure
avar to access the anon hashref
audreyt $ perl -le 'print ENV->{LC_ALL}'
zh_TW.UTF-8
16:35 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
fglock no luck with ${{@a}}{a} or ${@a}{a} 16:35
audreyt since it's rewritten to ${ENV}{LC_ALL} and finally $ENV{LC_ALL}
avar like my $hr = { a => "b" }; $hr->{a];
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xerox anon? 16:36
Yuck.
audreyt fglock:
$ perl -le 'my @a = qw(a b); print ${{@a}}{a}'
b
avar audreyt: I didn't know of that
(ENV->..)
audreyt it's not exactly common knowledge :) 16:37
avar Is all of this stuff documented somewhere?
audreyt another not exactly common knowlege:
$ perl -le 'print %ENV->{LC_ALL}'
zh_TW.UTF-8
avar like my @a; push a, "b";
fglock audreyt: thanks :p 16:38
audreyt it's documented somewhere, I'm sure, but it's very hard to find them...
gaal audreyt: spread the ev0l :)
audreyt ...I know the ENV-> trick is documented in Damian's selfgol talk
gaal it's actually only half documented. it's mentioned in perldiag.
audreyt ah. right. that's where I learned it
gaal as a technique to avoid sigils in Makefiles that have to be cross-platform, I think it's best documented in the commit log for a certain Perl 6 implementation... 16:39
audreyt :) 16:40
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gaal is there a config option to get irssi to display unicode? here I see unicode in other screen(1) windows but not in irssi. 16:42
lumi /set term_type utf-8 16:43
gaal lumi: rssi: Unknown setting term_type 16:44
lumi What's in your term_charset?
wilx Hmm, google, I don't remember what it was, but one of the options was renamed.... 16:45
gaal UTF-8
lumi Mu. Dunno then, sorry :/
gaal ah well. 16:46
audreyt hm. embedding perl5 always with pugs, and then demand perl 5.8, can give rise to lots of nice utility functions
e.g. full encoding support without thinking about libicu. 16:47
or rx:P5// that supported embedded closures.
gaal embedded Perl 6 closures?
audreyt code inside rx:P5// are taken as p5, iirc.
but sure, callback to p6land is already there, if needed.
gaal does activestate come with all the .h files needed to embed perl by default? 16:49
audreyt yes, and Limbic_Region already confirmed it as working.
gaal cool
does ghc's bundled gcc take care of everything? that's great 16:50
audreyt yup.
gaal (on windows)
audreyt the earlier buildfail was simply that
perl5's dirent.h was loaded
instad of mingw's
so need a -D
that's all
gaal what does switching rx backend entail though? wouldn't that be quite some work? 16:51
audreyt but that means I need to more properly use ExtUtils::Embed...
well, calling into perl5 is already there, so it's not a lot of work 16:52
but not going to tackle that any time soon
it involves writing a RRegex.Perl5
that uses the Pugs.Embed.Perl5 callconv
and then just use it like RRegex.PCRE.
gaal that doesn't look too hard 16:53
audreyt it probably isn't
gaal shudders at the comment at the top of those files.. "arch-tag:..."
<- tla ph33r
audreyt suddenly recall she had another module that used ExtUtils::Embed extensively and contains lots of useful workarounds 16:55
gaal oh? this is going to be funny :) 16:56
audreyt PuAgRs
gaal w00t
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svnbot6 r12858 | fglock++ | * v6 - more unboxed types (misc/pX/fglock) 16:58
audreyt perhaps PUGS_EMBED to '-perl5' will disable p5 embedding 16:59
or '!perl5'
gaal whee search.cpan.org/src/SMUELLER/PAR-0....akefile.PL has OS/2 support :-)
Limbic_Region audreyt - you don't like 5lrep for that? 17:00
audreyt yeah, contributed by ilyaz
Limbic_Region: mmm?
Limbic_Region perl5 spelled backwards
Limbic_Region murmurs redrum redrum
sorry - just got back from lunch
audreyt np :) 17:01
gaal has to moose for a bit! see y'all :)
Limbic_Region testing in a sec
gaal - thanks for earlier
anyone know what "dubious - Test returned status 5 (wstat 1280, 0x500)" means in english? 17:04
fglock audreyt: I'm testing compile-time autoboxing emulation, it seems to work so far - svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/perl5/Pugs...rl6/Perl5/
lambdabot Title: Revision 12858: /perl5/Pugs-Compiler-Perl6/lib/Pugs/Emitter/Perl6/Perl5
audreyt Limbic_Region: it segfaulted. 17:06
fglock: ooh! nice
svnbot6 r12859 | audreyt++ | * First sketch at using ExtUtils::Embed on non-Win32 platforms
r12859 | audreyt++ | for perl5 embedding. Need to the solve "make ghci" problem
r12859 | audreyt++ | (probably using 'ar' to extract DynaLoader.o out) before
r12859 | audreyt++ | we can enable this by default.
Limbic_Region audreyt - ok, question is why - it works fine from the command line 17:07
audreyt and with that I'm back to moose as well... see y'all
Limbic_Region pugs -Iblib6/lib t/examples/all_parse.t # works but not under harness
TTFN audreyt
audreyt there's many possibilities... but TTFN 17:08
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Limbic_Region thinks he has it 17:12
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Limbic_Region the debugging info that is making it work under the command line is making it fail under the harness 17:15
Limbic_Region will figure it out another time 17:18
TreyHarris heh. smoke on r12792: duration 12894 secs, 10400 ok, 679 failed. r12835: duration 9654, 10547 ok, 617 failed 17:37
I think r12835 was better :-)
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TreyHarris ?eval class Foo { has ($.y is rw, @!a); method bar (Str $yish, Array @aish) { $.y = $yish; @!a = @aish } }; my $x = 'hi'; my @z = <<hi $x how are you>>; my Foo $obj .= new; $obj.bar($x, @y); say $obj.perl 18:06
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TreyHarris ?eval 1 + 1 18:07
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xinming TreyHarris: I think you can join #perlchina for eval the bot currently 18:09
hmm, It seems I have to rerun the p6bot-loop
bbl
TreyHarris xinming: thanks
18:10 DaGo joined
xinming I mean the perlchina one, I don't have right to change this bot. :-P 18:10
TreyHarris xinming: yep, understood. but i don't need the bot after all 18:11
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svnbot6 r12860 | fglock++ | v6 - more tweaks to make [email@hidden.address] generate '${{@array}}{"c"}' 18:25
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TreyHarris just noticed r12853. when will ".foo given XXX" and "XXX.foo" not be interchangeable? 18:36
araujo hello! 18:37
TreyHarris is postfix given just provided for completeness?
araujo: que tal
araujo hola TreyHarris :-)
18:39 markymoon left
Limbic_Region TreyHarris - I received your email but marked it as spam at first 18:42
something made me decide to go pull it out of the trash though ;-)
TreyHarris um... ok
TreyHarris doesn't know how to interpret that
18:42 pdcawley joined
TreyHarris i wasn't asking you to donate to anything 18:43
Limbic_Region no no 18:44
just that I received an email from someone I don't correspond with regularly with a subject line of "answer"
I flagged it (and many others at the same time) as spam
a few minutes later something in the back of my head told me to actually read that one
so I fetched it out of the trash
TreyHarris oh, i see. :-) 18:45
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TreyHarris i thought you meant you read it and then marked it. lol 18:45
Limbic_Region not that I want to open up that can of worms again but I think I wasn't clear that the majority of my negative sentiment was directed towards the PerlMonks fund within TPF 18:47
TPF as a whole, I haven't dealt with enough to have formed an opinion
TreyHarris ah 18:48
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svnbot6 r12861 | fglock++ | v6 - more unboxed Array methods 18:58
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svnbot6 r12862 | gaal++ | * Alias for upload-smoke, because half of the time I get it backwards 19:43
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Daveman :p 19:47
cognominal milgram++ 19:52
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fglock araujo: ahora tenemos la pagina tambien en espanol: www.perl.org.br/twiki/bin/view/YAPC...CSA2006_ES 20:13
lambdabot Title: YAPCSA2006_ES &lt; YAPC &lt; TWiki
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svnbot6 r12863 | fglock++ | v6 - more emitter tweaks - [email@hidden.address] compiles to 20:32
r12863 | fglock++ | ( map { ( $_, @array[$_] ) } 0..@array-1 )[4,5]
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markstos We have a Perl6::Perl5::Differences, but I wonder if we should have two documents for Perl5 users: 1, like Differences.pod mostly does now, would focus on how to Perl5ish things in a Perl6ish way. And 2. more of a "new features" document. These would of course be differences as well, but would be things which /didn't exist/ in Perl5. Thoughts ? 23:39
markstos just sent a clarification question about return types to p6l 23:54
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