svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com | dev.pugscode.org/
Set by putter on 11 February 2007.
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svnbot6 r15320 | lwall++ | hyper precedence needs to be transparently the same as inner operator 01:13
r15320 | lwall++ | meta non-recursion needs to attach to %+thisop rather than match object
r15320 | lwall++ | sublanguages still in pieces on the floor
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svnbot6 r15321 | lwall++ | prefixes and postfixes weren't propagating precedence upward enough 01:58
r15322 | lwall++ | typos, some sublang stuff 02:10
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audreyt @tell avar in the POD for "stash" the second "comp =>" should be "exec =>" no? 03:19
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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shay|p6 hello 03:21
audreyt greetings 03:23
lambdabot audreyt: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
audreyt lambdabot: moosages
(brb) 03:24
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ingy hi Schwern 04:59
Schwern hi 05:04
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miyagawa hi 06:24
TimToady 今ꗄćÆ怂 06:32
audreyt greetings.
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REPLeffect auderyt: glad to hear you are doing better. 06:36
audreyt REPLeffect: danke. :) 06:38
REPLeffect (and it's good to see postings on planetsix.perl.org again :-D )
miyagawa TimToady: 今ꙩćÆ 06:39
audreyt: Takahashi-san is apparently going to osdc.tw
audreyt I heard. but not giving talks. wonder why. 06:40
miyagawa i agree. I suggested him to give LT at least 06:41
audreyt that'd be cool. his talk is... legendary 06:43
miyagawa yeah 06:44
gaal moose 06:45
audreyt moo! 06:46
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audreyt gaal: today's GHC finally 1)built and 2)has fast-enough ghci debugger (indistinguishable from -fno-debugging) 06:59
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gaal yay! 07:08
gaal pines for the tbz2s
afk& 07:09
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svnbot6 r15323 | lwall++ | sublanguages a little closer to real 08:21
jisom_ does pugs have in practice something like perl5's -T operator, true if a file appears to be a text file 08:23
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Aankhen`` Wasn't that something like this? $file ~~ :T 08:25
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audreyt jisom_: write a test? 08:30
t/operators/filetest.t 08:31
and test that ~~:T works
jisom_: a commit bit is on its way to your inbox. please add yourself to AUTHORS :) 08:33
jisom_ didn't expect that result 08:36
tene jisom_: you must be new here. 08:37
jisom_ I work with parrot more than pugs
was hoping to steal it
tene Welcome to #perl6, where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a commit bit.
moritz ;)
jisom_ of all the little things I've done for parrot, I never even added myself, I think leo did 08:38
audreyt jisom_: anyway, the test you add will be reused on parrot end anyway (as soon as patrick makes 01-sanity pass), so why not :) 08:39
moritz audreyt: are you at home again? 08:40
audreyt: or still in the hospital?
audreyt @home. freshly discharged yesterday
lambdabot Unknown command, try @list
moritz audreyt++ congratulations ;) 08:41
hospital is _so_ boring...
audreyt indeed
moritz I've never been there myself for long, but my girlfriend has a cardic pacemaker...
audreyt oy
jisom_: can you add the -T etc tests? :) 08:44
moritz hey, 'make soon' is really fast - how cool
audreyt :D
jisom_ wonders if :T is suppose to exist 08:45
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audreyt it is 08:45
jisom_ S03 seems to say nothing
at least not explicitly
audreyt which means it's same with p5
(anything not explicitly said as changed is assumed to be unchanged) 08:46
jisom_ ok
audreyt the implementation is in. 08:47
svnbot6 r15324 | audreyt++ | * Support for the full test of file test operators: oRWXOlpSbctugkTB
r15324 | audreyt++ | (the rest were already supported.) For example:
r15324 | audreyt++ | "README" ~~ :T # True
r15324 | audreyt++ | Thanks to jisom++ for prompting it.
audreyt *full set
as for implementation -- note that pugs always embed perl5 :) 08:48
# so this is just a perl5 bridge
moritz ;)
its kind of cheating isf you ask me - but never mind ;)
audreyt I mean, how else would you support the full Unicode 4.0 charnames?
shipping UnicodeData.txt with pugs?
it's called continuity, if you ask me :) 08:49
moritz or lazyness - which is a good thing, yes ;)
jisom_ oh pugs isn't perl6, just a perl6 interpreter, technical difference
audreyt right. gcc isn't C, either.
jisom_ but written in c
so is c 08:50
audreyt eventually pugs will be written in perl6, but the plan is still to embed perl5.
jisom_ g++ is probably in c, but compiles c++, so not c++
audreyt so sun's java is not java?
parrot's tcl isn't tcl?
moritz I am pretty sure that java is self-hosting
audreyt doesn't quite follow
rgs at least, perl 5 is perl 5. probably 08:51
audreyt but perl5 is written in C
so it's not perl, per jisom's criteria
moritz let's just redefine 'is' ;)
jisom_ thinks 08:52
it's all assembly in the end?
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audreyt it's all machine code in the end, yes 08:52
but we prefer not to think it that way :)
we prefer to think that it's all turtles
all the way down
rgs below the elephants, you mean 08:53
audreyt elephants are just larger, elephant-shaped turtles
moritz do I smell Pratchett around? *g*
rgs package elephant; use base "turtle" 08:54
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gaal it's elephants all the way down? 09:28
jisom no, turtles
gaal it's smaller, turtle-shaped elephants all the way down? 09:29
shay hello 09:30
gaal hi 09:34
pdcawley elephant shaped turtles? 09:47
audreyt pdcawley: backlog (~1hr) 09:48
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pdcawley Drat. 09:48
Whatever I say, Audrey got their first.
audreyt sheer coincidence 09:49
pdcawley Tangentially, but sort of fitting with the turlephants all the way down idea, did you see the video of Ian Piumarta's talk at Stanford recently? 09:51
pdcawley hunts the URL.
audreyt "Building your own dynamic language"?
shay gaal, shalom 09:52
pdcawley Yeah.
gaal hola 09:53
shay cōæ½xF3mo estōæ½xE1s?
gaal todo bien
shay de verdad hablas espaōæ½xF1ol, o eso es todo lo que sabes? :)
gaal לא, ×”×Ŗם מח×Øטט. 09:54
shay I just see "?"s
pdcawley And the horse you rode in on!
gaal audreyt: still eager to see newnewVal scheme
audreyt pdcawley: cute
gaal: still lazy to produce it
gaal ah, fine fine 09:55
audreyt but seriously, I'll be able to hack in earnest after tomorrow morning's follow-up check
gaal no rush :)
audreyt yeah :) till then I'll just set up the hacking environment, both in the digital and in the analog world... 09:56
<- still settling in to @home
gaal home++
audreyt @~
lambdabot Maybe you meant: . v
gaal is that supposed to be \bot's builtin handwave op? 09:57
@hw Pugs.Parser 09:58
lambdabot Maybe you meant: . bf ft ghc id pl rc show v wn yow
gaal drat
tene pdcawley: let me know if you find a url. 10:09
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audreyt dinner... bbiab 10:38
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avar audreyt: yep, I fixed that in my working copy a few days ago 11:34
lambdabot avar: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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pdcawley tene: www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/ 11:48
lambdabot Title: Stanford Computer Systems Laboratory Colloquium
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moritz is there a gtk-binding for perl 6 already? 14:35
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moritz ?eval "foo".comb(m/o/) 14:55
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evalbot_r15324 ("o", "o") 14:55
moritz ?eval comb("foo", m/o/)
evalbot_r15324 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&comb"
moritz shouldn't those two be constructs be the same?
audreyt moritz: use perl5:Gtk; 15:03
?eval comb "foo": m/o/
?eval comb "foo": /o/
evalbot_r15324 ("o", "o")
moritz audreyt: thanks and thanks ;)
audreyt :)
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moritz I'm just trying to 'cat' som files, using while my $line = $file.readline() { say $line; }... 15:13
and some files are reproduced correctly
while others deliver only the first line, or the first few
for example with README only the first 12 lines are reproduced 15:14
any idea what might be wrong?
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[particle] did the perl 6 idiom for filehandle reads change from while to for? 15:15
rhr maybe while defined my $line = ... ? 15:16
[particle] i wonder if =$file.readline.say; would work
moritz rhr: that's it, thank you 15:17
[particle] or maybe it's just =$file.say
moritz [particle]: later I want to do more to files than just cat them ;)
[particle] does for $file.readline -> $line { say $line }; work? 15:18
moritz it dies with "*** Undeclared variable: "$file" 15:19
[particle] design\syn\S04.pod
249:In particular, we now generally use C<for> to iterate filehandles.
moritz even thoug I decleared $line 15:20
wtf?
[particle] i may have the syntax wrong, i haven't programmed perl 6 in a while
allbery_b I think it's =$file.say 15:23
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[particle] allbery_b: i think he wants to expand on it, so that optimization isn't desired 15:24
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svnbot6 r15325 | audreyt++ | * Remove debug warnings for ~~:T etc. 17:05
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devbot6 planet6: Audrey Tang: Various uses of embedded Perl 5. <pugs.blogs.com/pugs/2007/02/various...f.html> 17:43
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svnbot6 r15326 | lwall++ | Added configurable tabstop. 18:59
r15327 | lwall++ | Y -> Z, XX -> X 19:24
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specbot6 r13700 | larry++ | More Y XX -> Z X clarifications 19:53
r13700 | larry++ | Now allow "constant $?TABSTOP = 4" syntax for user to set compiler variables.
jrockway multiple personalities :) 19:54
TimToady yeah, he's really crazy 19:57
I mean, we're really crazy 19:58
jisom you don't have a timtoady commit bit? 19:59
TimToady no, that would be confusing
[particle] r15328 | particle | committed timtoady 20:00
TimToady thinks trying to confuse TimToady is redundant... 20:01
jrockway svnbot should write (larry|lwall|TimToady)++ 20:02
or maybe $TimToady
TimToady karma (larry|lwall|TimToady) 20:03
jabbot TimToady: (larry|lwall|TimToady) has neutral karma
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specbot6 r13701 | larry++ | Change hardwired 8 to $?TABSTOP // 8 for heredocs 20:07
TimToady why can't he make up his mind...PERL 6 is never going to be finished at this rate... 20:09
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rindolf Hi all. 20:17
Can someone unban n=shlomi@bzq-88-153-132-253.red.bezeqint.net) from #perl?
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specbot6 r13702 | larry++ | typo from aaroncrane++ 21:01
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svnbot6 r15328 | lwall++ | More X/Z fixes 22:06
r15328 | lwall++ | t/operators/precedence.t was using old precedence table
cj TimToady: does that mean we're done? 22:07
oh, wait... I'd probably have to contribute something more than my name to the AUTHORS file to be considered part of we 22:08
TimToady what is this "done" concept that you mention?
cj one day I will have infinte time and contribute to all of the fun things
TimToady: something I heard about at a conference somewhere
TimToady sure it wasn't a steak grilling conference? 22:09
cj might have been. come to thing of it, I think it was
s/g/k/ of course
tene cj: "mikht"? 22:10
cj tene: I was afraid nobody would know what I was talking about 22:12
TimToady the problem with waiting till you have infinite time is that you never get to the fun things...
eat dessert first, and all that... 22:13
cj TimToady: naughty!
TimToady sweets for the sweet, and naughts for the naughty
though I'd settle for Knott's 22:14
cj any of your spawn still attending school up here?
TimToady Geneva
cj tell her she should stop by for lunch some time! I'm in the big black building 22:15
TimToady k
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cj 18th floor, ask for cjcoll@ 22:15
TimToady the one the space needle came in?
[particle] the one the giant beaver has been eating?
cj TimToady: I think it was built a couple of decades after the space needle 22:16
TimToady does it have a brass dancer in front?
that looks like it's slipping on a banana peel? 22:17
cj not that I know of... maybe if it's very very small...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_Center
TimToady nah, this was a completely rectangular building older than that. 22:19
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TimToady it's the black building you can see behind the Wash Mutual tower in this picture: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Mutual_Tower 22:22
lambdabot Title: Washington Mutual Tower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TimToady I suppose it could be the same building the beaver was gnawing on, now that I think back... 22:23
anyway, it was built about the same time as the Space Needle, and was about the same size, so we called it the box the Space Needle came in. 22:26
used to be the tallest building downtown.
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cj TimToady: oh, one caveat: I work from home on Fridays 22:34
and although we'd be happy to have her visit for lunch, we live in Everett ;) 22:36
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DebolazX Out of curiosity, has anyone made any perl6/ruby comparison? Adventages/disaventages compared to each other, etc. 23:27
jrockway what are you looking for in particular? 23:29
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moritz perl6 is cooler, ruby is fully implemented ;) 23:30
DebolazX Well, I am curious about what (perceived) adventages are with either language.. one thing that has annoyed me with ruby is the lack of variable declaration.
I'm not trying to be onesided here, there are things in perl 6 I don't like either. But I have seen several comparisons between perl 5 and ruby, so I was curious if there were any between perl 6 and ruby. 23:31
allbery_b I think perl6 needs to settle down more first 23:32
jrockway i would see no reason to use ruby after perl6 has stabilized 23:33
specbot6 r13703 | larry++ | Clarify that a named argument may name either the label or the variable name. 23:34
jrockway the ruby folks are thinking about using parrot to run ruby
so it will be the same VM (possibly)
Limbic_Region jrockway - then you aren't thinking very polylingual
TimToady and the pugs folks are thinking about using ruby to run Perl 6. :)
PerlJam jrockway: ruby may incorporate all of the things learned from perl6 by the time perl6 stablizes :)
Limbic_Region jrockway - the advantage of the parrot based perl 6 implementation is that you will get to use libraries from any language that target parrot
TimToady well, we already know they're borrowing ->
jrockway unlikely; python 3000 is as "vaporish" as perl6
i don't keep up on ruby much
ruby and python both have neat features that i would like to see, but not enough neat features to switch 23:35
and throw away the CPAN and years of perl experience :)
haskell OTOH i quite like, and it will tide me over until perl6 is real
PerlJam jrockway: what do you mean "switch"? I program in perl. I program in php. I program in python. I soon will program in ruby. These are not mutually exclusive things :-)
jrockway no, but why bother (is what i ask myself) 23:36
why write something in ruby when i can do it 3x faster in perl
it's the same end result
which is why i don't really care too much about the programming language holy wars
PerlJam jrockway: But the journey is different
jrockway it's what you do, not how you do it
PerlJam And it's the journey that's often most important.
(now, if you're just interested in getting the results, then obviously you chose the method that works best for you) 23:37
jrockway how so
DebolazX In my experience, perl does most real world jobs faster than most of the other languages, in part thanks to the enormous CPAN. But disregarding external factors like that, ruby does seem awfully tempting. 23:38
PerlJam jrockway: It's like a C programmer asking "Why would I ever use LISP?" There are lessons that LISP teaches quite well as compared to C. There are some lessons that ruby can teach you.
jrockway i guess writing something in ruby or python is the same journey for me
haskell feels differnt to me
PerlJam (At the very least think of it as a case of "hold your friends close, but your enemies closer" :-)
jrockway so in that sense, i enjoy the journey
but i don't think i would enjoy ruby
it's not *that* different from perl, that's all
PHP is an interesting journey, however 23:39
i've learned that the perfect programming language will be the complete opposite of it :)
moritz jrockway: when you've done enough CGI-stuff in perl, PHP just feels .. ugly ;) 23:40
jrockway yup, my current job is all PHP (not for much longer though)
PerlJam my current job is PHP too. 23:41
prior to this job, I wrote some bit of perl code practically every day for years and years.
I've written maybe 10 perl programs and maybe 20 or 30 one-liners in the last 3 months.
jrockway so do you like PHP better? 23:42
PerlJam no.
jrockway :)
moritz it would be suicide to admit it in #perl* ;)
jrockway there's not much to like about it :)
PerlJam people who like php better don't have the breadth of knowledge from which to compare 23:43
jrockway agreed
i'm surprised it's so popular though
PerlJam jrockway: and we're back to why you should learn ruby ;-)
moritz jrockway: it's an easy start, if you just know html
DebolazX jrockway: Why? It's pretty obvious why it's so popular, it's easily deployable. 23:44
PerlJam why are you surprised? PHP is the king of ubiquity and good-enough.
jrockway i'm surprised people that know better pick it (like yahoo, for example)
DebolazX As opposed to perl, requiring either the ugly CGI interface or a dedicated server.
jrockway they can hire some dude to keep mod_perl alive :)
i'm mostly thinking about real apps
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jrockway not "joe's home page" or whatever 23:44
PerlJam wants parrot to edge into the ubiquity market though by being in web servers *and* browsers :-)
DebolazX jrockway: But quantity implies popularity. A lot of people use it in general, so many people will use it for more advanced applications. 23:45
jrockway sure, and it's easy to find cheap PHP programmers
DebolazX Because of the quantity.
jrockway yup, same with java though
moritz hey, maybe javascript on parrot could speed up mozilla & co ;)
jrockway i haven't learned ruby because i don't think it would be a fundamental change in the way i think about programming 23:46
PerlJam jrockway: you're probably right about that.
jrockway haskell and functional is, which has kept my interested through the no-productivity stage :)
DebolazX I've talked to many perl developers who simply could not understand that easy deployment was a good thing, it seemed at the time the majority felt every application should be its own server.
jrockway hmm
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jrockway i PAR up my perl apps, run svc -t appname, and i'm done 23:47
that's much easier than the various issues I have to fight with in PHP
php.ini, etc.
PerlJam DebolazX: see RoR and Jifty :-)
jrockway catalyst :)
DebolazX RoR/Jifty/Catalyst isn't easily deployable compared to PHP.
For the poor soab admin running the public hosting service most people use. 23:48
jrockway i don't think easy deployment is worth the random major security problems, the lack of a sane language, no modules, etc.
i guess that's the php culture
"do most of the work, screw getting it right" 23:49
compare DateTime to php's date/time functions
datetime is bloated because date/time is a hard problem
however, it's easy if you don't think about it
and the bugs probably won't be *too* bad
PerlJam jrockway: such things didn't hinder Microsoft and they certainly won't hinder php.
jrockway so PHP wins
yeah, i'm not sure i really care about PHP's success
i'll have a nice Perl job in the future, and there's enough activity in the perl community to keep me very interested 23:50
and that's all i need really
PerlJam jrockway: what's the perl job?
DebolazX jrockway: I'm not saying PHP is great as a language. I'm not saying there aren't various horrible things about its implementation. I'm saying that it beat perl on quantity through easy deployment. It was leaps and bounds better than CGI for most people, and there were few alternatives.
PerlJam (and can you work parrot/perl6 into it? ;-)
jrockway PerlJam: well, i'm looking at 2 right now
one is data warehousing, the other is working with $UNNAMED_MEMBER_OF_PERL6_COMMUNITY 23:51
details after i make a decision :)
PerlJam jrockway: depending on the latter, that's the one I'd choose.
jrockway yeah, the data warehousing one would be cool
but they're making me sign away my life, which scares me 23:52
PerlJam "We own your soul" sign and date below.
jrockway anything that's not PHP is worth it, though, IMHO
i'm just not very productive with PHP, and that bugs me
PerlJam I've actually experienced a little of that in this PHP job. But my productivity has improved the more I use it. 23:53
The thing that bugs me most about PHP right now is the lack of mnemonic cues. 23:54
jrockway i miss Test::More and having a framework
i like catalyst; not using it seems mildly insane to me
and unfortunately i'm getting the urge more and more to rewrite parts in haskell :) 23:57
i remember an hour long meeting about how to represent things like "Winter 2007" in the application
data Term a = Spring a | Summer a | Fall a | Winter a deriving (Read, Show, Eq) and we're done :)
unfortunately we now have an entire class, filled with random PHP and database workarounds 23:58
ah, i have to go... going to miss the train :)
jrockway &

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