pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4]
Set by gaal on 18 June 2007.
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dduncan so, is anyone onsite for YAPC yet, and anything interesting to report? 02:07
YAPC NA that is
diakopter yeah - see #yapc on irc.perl.org 02:08
70 folks at the pre-dinner
diakopter is glad he left early; large storm rolling through H-town.
Alias_ wishes he was at YAPC::NA :( 02:09
dduncan okay
diakopter dduncan: but to answer your 2nd question: better to ask on that other channel 02:10
dduncan sur'nuf
dduncan wishes I was there too, but not this year 02:11
offby1 eww, pronoun agreement, people, please! 02:33
diakopter offby1: who was in error? 02:34
offby1 * dduncan wishes I was there too, but not this year 02:36
offby1 mimes holding his nose
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spinclad and it would be nice if the subjunctive weren't a mood half crippled in its current use 02:51
(note: weren't, not wasn't) 02:52
(or rather, example: weren't v. wasn't) 03:01
offby1 tries to close the worm can 03:03
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Aankhen`` puts offby1 in the can and seals it. 03:44
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ibrown evenin. 04:07
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moritz re 07:41
Aankhen`` Rerere. 07:42
moritz what's up? 07:45
judging from the logs I didn't miss much the last two days ;)
Aankhen`` Yeah, it's been quiet.
moritz most people are busy with yapc I guess 07:46
Alias_ yup
thoughtpolice hey moritz 07:49
moritz hi thoughtpolice ;) 07:50
thoughtpolice: when will we read your next great article on perl 6?
thoughtpolice: btw look at the subscription list of planetsix.perl.org/ ;-) 07:52
lambdabot Title: Planet Perl Six
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pmurias hi 08:14
Aankhen`` Oh, dang, I completely missed the last DIP6 entry. 08:19
pmurias what is DIP6? 08:20
Aankhen`` I just shortened Dive Into Perl 6. 08:21
Wow, kp6 has a rather detailed roadmap. 08:23
pmurias it's a bit long term thought 08:29
thoughtpolice moritz: i saw. :) 08:44
moritz: the next one's one rules, so it's going to be long; right now it looks like I might split it into two parts 08:45
it would probably be done already if not for being somewhat busy and things being hectic
but it'll get done. :)
on a side note my new blog is done. weeee. now the server just needs python/web.py support :/ 08:46
considering it's roughly 4:00am here I might as well go ahead and work on it, though. :) 08:47
i should probably update my pugs repo however. 08:49
moritz thoughtpolice: good to hear ;) 08:58
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thoughtpolice moritz: hopefully i'll try to get it out sometime this week. now that my blog is done (for now, basically v0.1) that takes one thing off my shoulders at least. :) 09:04
moritz thoughtpolice: ok, don't hurry ;) 09:05
thoughtpolice :) 09:06
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thoughtpolice moritz: funny enough, writing this takes much less longer than I initially thought. :) it'll probably be done later today (see: in maybe an hour or so?) if I keep going at this rate. 11:15
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moritz ;) 11:25
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thoughtpolice done. :) 11:49
diveintoperl6.blogspot.com/2007/06/...und-4.html
lambdabot Title: Dive into Perl 6: Perl 6: Round 4
thoughtpolice like always, criticisms/annotations/complaints are welcome (well, I haven't gotten any real *complaints* yet...)
moritz thoughtpolice: I have to do some dish washing, after that I'll take a look
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thoughtpolice moritz: ty. :) 11:50
i'll be doing... something. i dunno.
letting my hands rest
wolverian thoughtpolice, you have some apostrophe errors. search for 's for an example. :) 11:54
namely: grammar's, regex's (regexes), macro's. 11:55
pmurias thoughtpolice: shouldn't it be this is less complicated than it sounds in hypothetical variables paragraph? 11:58
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moritz thoughtpolice: I like your post... but of course you could do another one on rules 12:05
thoughtpolice: for example explaining the difference between token and regex, a bit backtracking control (perhaps I'll understand it if you explain it ;), fail() and the like 12:06
thoughtpolice wolverian: i'm not exactly the best on usage of such things. :( 12:07
moritz: that's what I'm thinking
it might not be the next one I write, but that's where I think it'll go 12:08
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thoughtpolice I originally was going to split this one into two parts but I rewrote parts of it and got it into one part. 12:08
pmurias: and yes, thanks. :)
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wolverian thoughtpolice, the rules are pretty simple. only use an apostrophe to mark either a contraction or a possessive. 12:10
thoughtpolice i knew I should have paid attention during those parts of english.
but thanks. :) 12:11
wolverian you don't need lectures to remember those two rules, though! :) I hope...
(okay, I did.)
thoughtpolice well, I mean more in relation to parts of speech. i never really bothered with it, because i'm too much of a bum when it comes to such things. 12:12
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thoughtpolice moritz: don't worry though. so far I've pretty much planned for an 'unnofficial round 4b,' and I'm hoping it will cover much more of the magic than what I described in this one. we'll have to wait and see. :) 12:15
wolverian (there are some exceptions too; the possessive of "it" is "its", not "it's".)
thoughtpolice wolverian: i'll admit I know that one. :)
it's probably just not evident most of the time, at least not to me.
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wolverian yeah, english could use some fixing rewriting 12:16
moritz wolverian: most languages could ;)
b_jonas its is like your and my 12:17
wolverian s/rewriting// # oh the irony
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b_jonas it's not really surprising 12:17
moritz wolverian: ;) 12:18
pmurias fglock: hi 12:19
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thoughtpolice in any case though, like I closed off, I'm currently at a loss about what to possibly write about next. 12:20
if anybody has any recommendations, appreciation is coming your way. :) 12:21
pmurias fglock: are there any reasons for using the spelling Rul, or am i free to change it 12:23
?
lidden is the Hypotetical variables example correct?
s/person/z/ ?
thoughtpolice lidden: no, i suppose it isn't. thanks. :) 12:24
moritz there is an assignment missing
or that way, right
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fglock pmurias: hmm - looking 12:29
no particular reason, it's ok to change 12:32
pmurias: please svn up (svnbot is not working) 12:33
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moritz thoughtpolice: you could mention in your blog post that PGE is a fairly complete implementation of p6 rules 12:35
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pmurias fglock: svk pulled 12:45
nice commit
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pmurias checked in 12:54
is PCR faster then the current rule implementation in kp6? 12:58
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pmurias i could try to work on pluging in PCR, but i'm not sure what to do 13:03
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fglock pmurias: looking 13:16
first thing is to copy Token.pm into (for example) RegexPCR.pm 13:17
you can either recompile the regex from source, or transform the AST (better) 13:18
and then call the PCR emitter
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fglock this doesn't look good - we would need a new AST node for the Perl 5 code generated by PCR 13:20
probably just do ::Apply eval('source', 'Perl5') 13:21
args ::Apply and not Thanks::Apply ? 13:22
that's rude
fglock args: :)
pmurias: we need something that scale to other backends
subclassing EmitPerl5 is probably better 13:24
just redefine ::Token
pmurias: re PCR faster, I don't think so 13:27
PCR-in-perl5regex would be much faster, but it's incomplete 13:29
pmurias & 13:30
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pmurias b 13:38
what would be the benefits of using PCR instead of the curent rule engine? 13:39
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fglock_ and it makes possible to skip "phase 3" in the roadmap 13:46
(repeating) pmurias: it would help test the compiler extensibility, 13:47
and it makes possible to skip "phase 3" in the roadmap
s/skip/move out of the critical path/ 13:49
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fglock_ pmurias: using PCR would be for the short-term only; in the long term, 6-in-6-regex should replace PCR entirely 13:54
pmurias: sorry if I don't give you direct answers - I'm thinking aloud 13:56
pmurias np 13:57
:)
fglock_ pmurias++ # making the right questions 13:58
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pmurias lunch and moving the server& 13:59
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meppl gugu 14:52
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pmurias meppl: gaga 15:38
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mncharity lol 15:40
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meppl gugu pmurias 16:09
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diakopter $YAPC::NA::2007::TPF::OnPerl6 = "We *want* to believe in Perl 6 [emphasis original], but .... there is some debate about whether it will ever end up working"; 17:10
b_jonas sure it will 17:16
it's coming out all right
at most the specs won't contain all the features of the S-es
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b_jonas but it will be working 17:16
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diakopter b_jonas: he meant "work" as in "succeed as a strategy/initiative for revitalizing/rescuing Perl as a community/entity/project", or similar. 17:19
b_jonas well, that sort of depends on how much the compatibility with perl5 and other existing languages will wokr 17:21
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b_jonas how's yapc btw? 17:21
beppu What's the IRC channel for this year's YAPC? 17:24
Aankhen`` I thought `token foo { ... }` is like `regex foo { ^ ... }` except that ^ refers to the position at which you start matching rather than the actual beginning of the string. 17:26
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PerlJam Aankhen``: er, no. token just never backtrack like regex would. 17:29
diakopter beppu: irc.perl.org#yapc 17:31
beppu diakopter: thanks 17:33
Aankhen`` PerlJam: I guess I misunderstood.
I'll try and figure out what it means to backtrack or not to backtrack later.
PerlJam regex is "normal", token is regex + :ratchet (no backtracking under normal circumstances), and rule is regex + :ratchet + :sigspace (whitespace lexically between portions of your RE actually match whitespace in your stream) 17:34
Aankhen`` Yes, I'm just not sure what it means to backtrack vs. not backtrack. 17:35
PerlJam Aankhen``: backtracking is just about trying alternatives when the "tail" end of the regex fails to match. You back up and try the next alternative (if there is one) 17:36
Aankhen`` I have to run for now, but I shall have more questions later. :-) 17:37
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diakopter svnbot6 and specbot6 resurrected 18:15
?eval say "hi" 18:16
pasteling "evalbot_r16715" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at sial.org/pbot/25780 18:21
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diakopter ?eval say "hi" 18:22
evalbot_r16715 OUTPUT[hiā¤] Bool::True
diakopter specbot6, svnbot6, and evalbot daemonized/supervized on feather, now.
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Aankhen`` PerlJam: Do you feel able to give me an example of where backtracking would make a difference? 19:57
Tene gbracha.blogspot.com/2007/06/constr...rmful.html 19:58
lambdabot Title: Room 101: Constructors Considered Harmful, tinyurl.com/22uthq
Aankhen`` Have you read q/"Considered Harmful" Considered Harmful/? <G> 19:59
offby1 Room 101?! Do it to Julia!
Aankhen`` offby1: Quiet you. 20:00
wolverian that's actually an interesting issue.
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[particle] Aankhen``: consider the regex /x+xy/. in order for it to match 'xxy', it first eats both 'x' during the 'x+' portion of the match. 20:03
devbot6 dev: Ticket #25 (defect closed): dmqnujxc <dev.pugscode.org/ticket/25#comment:1>
[particle] Aankhen``: but it fails, because it can't find another 'x' after the two it's eaten. so, it backtracks, and tries matching the 'x+' with 'x'. 20:04
then the 'xy' in the pattern matches 'xy' in the string 20:05
Aankhen`` [particle]: Right.
[particle] so token xxy { x+ xy } will never match anything
(no backtracking)
x+ matches all the 'x', and can't go back and try one less 20:06
Aankhen`` Ah.
So where is that useful
?
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[particle] well, it's useful for matching tokens in grammars (hence the name) 20:07
Aankhen`` Yes, but I seem to be missing how it's more useful to say `token foo { bar | baz }` vs. `regex foo { bar | baz }`. (Sorry for being so obtuse. :-\) 20:08
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riffraff hi 20:11
Aankhen`` ā€¦come to think of it, I guess `token foo { bar | baz }` would never match "baz", would it?
TimToady sure it can 20:12
| does longest token now
for that example there's basically no difference between token and regex
Aankhen`` Oh, durr.
The backtracking applies to the quantifiers/
s|/|?|
TimToady yup
Aankhen`` I see.
[particle] returns 20:14
thanks for picking up where i left off, TimToady
diakopter (authentication and cookies on pugs' trac site now/again work as they are intended)
TimToady diakopter++
diakopter (also, devbot6 is alive, daemonized, and monitored on feather)
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diakopter TimToady: see specbot6, svnbot6, devbot6, and evalbot6 in /service/ on feather - mostly used ~larry/*bot 20:15
ibrown dumb question, but what's this mean:
(04:12:52 PM) Aankhen``: The backtracking applies to the quantifiers/
(04:12:54 PM) Aankhen``: s|/|?|
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { }; class Bar { }; class Baz { }; (::Foo, ::Bar, ::Baz).pick(1).new.WHAT 20:16
evalbot_r16715 ::Array
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { }; class Bar { }; class Baz { }; (::Foo, ::Bar, ::Baz).pick(1)
evalbot_r16715 (::Bar,)
Aankhen`` Oh. 20:17
TimToady hmm
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { }; class Bar { }; class Baz { }; (::Foo, ::Bar, ::Baz).pick(1)[0].WHAT
evalbot_r16715 ::Foo
Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { }; class Bar { }; class Baz { }; (::Foo, ::Bar, ::Baz).pick(1)[0].WHAT
evalbot_r16715 ::Baz
Aankhen`` Kewl.
So much factory classes? :-D
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Aankhen`` Okay, is `token` simply for reasons of efficiency, then? 20:21
Randal Oh yeah, i guess this channel will be quiet because everyone's at YAPC. :)
TimToady Aankhen``: notational convenience and communication of intent, primarily 20:24
Aankhen`` Mmm, mmm, mmm.
And furthermore, mmm.
offby1 quiet, you.
Aankhen`` whines.
offby1 bleats
Aankhen`` Now you're just being silly. 20:25
offby1 never.
TimToady I'm never silly...
Aankhen`` TimToady: You're missing out. 20:26
diakopter TimToady is also never sarcastic
[particle] no, really?!?!
Aankhen`` Absolutely.
ibrown: I was just confirming that the backtracking controls only apply to the quantifiers, e.g. *, +, ? 20:27
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TimToady and **{$m..$n} 20:28
Aankhen`` I always figured "e.g." was "for example". <G>
Come to think of it, my mother told me once that it used the be the other way around.
TimToady I was adding another e.g. :)
Aankhen`` Bah.
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Aankhen`` My examples need no annotation! 20:28
diakopter considers how to better structure the pugs svn repo (noting things such as /INSTALL and /INSTALL.v6-alpha and the disambiguating line in /INSTALL.v6-alpha) 20:29
diakopter waits for bright ideas 20:31
TimToady almost never has bright ideas about this "structure" concept... 20:34
Aankhen`` thoughtpolice: One suggestion for the post. Instead of "In perl 6 rules, like perl 5 regexes, you have a lot of special characters you can use inside your rules for specific purposes", you might want to mention that all nonā€“word characters are metasyntactic. 20:35
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meppl good night 21:01
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Aankhen`` moritz: Ping. 21:23
Er, actually, un-ping. 21:24
Sorry.
offby1 if you love a ping ... set it free 21:28
Aankhen`` reluctantly lets go of the ping. 21:30
devbot6 dev: Ticket #23 (defect closed): zoeoxpip <dev.pugscode.org/ticket/23#comment:1> 21:32
nwc10 ping ping ping ping pig
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Aankhen`` moritz: Ping for real. 22:07
willy_nelson The shaving 22:10
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spic img.7chan.org/jb/src/118195646798.jpg 22:31
diakopter pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] 22:32
Aankhen`` Whoops. o_O 22:35
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pasteling "evalbot_r16715" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at sial.org/pbot/25797 22:36
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willy_nelson a.photos.cx/geneva-6f2.png 22:59
diakopter pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4]
willy_nelson a.photos.cx/geneva-6f2.png <-- For Larry with love
diakopter pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] 23:01
willy_nelson a.photos.cx/geneva-6f2.png <-- For Larry with love FROM BANTOWN
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diakopter pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] 23:04
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Aankhen`` moritz: svn up when you get the chance. I did a bit of fiddling with the CSS and HTML. 23:29
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Aankhen`` (For IrcLog, natch.) 23:30
Comments welcome. :-) 23:31
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