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Set by Tene on 14 May 2009.
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jnthn use.perl.org/~JonathanWorthington/journal/38983 # hopefully less typos that last week's write-up 00:23
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meppl good night 01:37
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finanalyst good morning from Moscow. 07:02
anyone here able to tell me what I can set --trace to when running perl6? 07:03
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cotto If you're running Rakudo, it's a Parrot option. 07:20
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finanalyst what are the option? 07:30
s/option/options/
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cotto 1 is opcodes, 2 is find_method, 4 is function calls 07:42
I need to look around some to see if the documentation is accurate and/or if there's anything else.
care to join #parrot?
yeah, it looks like that's all there is 07:48
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ihrd hi there 08:01
I have question about attr initialization
if I have two attr with same name 08:02
like @.args and %.args
and instance object, like .new(args => {foo => 1}), rakudo init both attr 08:03
and question is, how this is should work in perl6? 08:04
rakudo: class B { has $.a; has %.a; has @.a; method foo { say $!a; say %!a; say @!a; } }; B.new(a => {foo => 1}).foo; 08:10
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«foo 1␤␤foo 1␤foo 1␤␤»
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jun__ When does Perl6 release? 08:29
wayland76 Christmas 08:30
lambdabot wayland76: You have 3 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
wayland76 But we're not saying which year :)
cotto It'll be closer this Christmas than it was last Christmas. 08:33
jun__ haw-haw
perl is funny... 08:36
i am a perl newbies 08:39
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wayland76 jun__: The real answer is "We'll release it when it's ready". We don't yet know when that is, but if you want to play with what we have now, then get a piece of software called "Rakudo" 08:40
It works moderately well, but has no libraries yet. 08:41
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japhb wayland76: well, not so much *no* libraries, as just a limited set, since work only recently began on them, 08:41
wayland76 Perl 6 is a document that describes the language, not a program that runs the language. Rakudo is one program that tries to run the Perl 6 language. 08:42
jun__ THS. 08:43
wayland76 japhb: good point -- I've got to update the inside of my brain again :)
japhb heh
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finanalyst rakudo: my %x=<a b c d e f g> Z 7,4,3,6,2,1,5; say %x.sort(*.values).perl 09:09
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«["a" => 7, "b" => 4, "c" => 3, "d" => 6, "e" => 2, "f" => 1, "g" => 5]␤»
finanalyst has something changed for sort? 09:10
mortiz_: ping 09:11
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finanalyst rakudo: my %x=<a b c d e f g> Z 7,4,3,6,2,1,5; say %x.sort(*.value).perl 09:51
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«["f" => 1, "e" => 2, "c" => 3, "b" => 4, "g" => 5, "d" => 6, "a" => 7]␤»
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pugs_svn r26847 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] ported over OutOfItemsException but the t/throw_inside_catch.t 10:49
r26847 | pmurias++ | segfault due to a double free issue
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jnthn hej hej 11:04
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jnthn @tell ihrd I think declaring two attributes of the same name even with different sigils is an error, though Rakudo doesn't moan about it yet. 11:06
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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masak bon samedi, mes papillons. 11:11
jnthn: I now see the parallel between 'ako sa mas?' and Borat's 'jak sie masz?'. 11:12
jnthn masak: Yes. I'm pretty sure that is _not_ an example of Khazakh. 11:13
masak doesn't surprise me. 11:14
jnthn I'm not sure accuracy was ever a goal of the film though. ;-)
masak :)
phonotactically, it looks a bit like Polish, but that doesn't mean it is.
jnthn It may be; I know next to nothing about Polish yet. 11:16
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masak the 'ie' and 'sz' digraphs look indicative to me. 11:17
jnthn The "masz" does indeed look feasibly like how the Slovak maš would be written in Polish though.
masak 'masz' must be 2nd person sg 'have'. 11:18
jnthn Yes, that's what maš is.
masak oh, there's a little happy mouth on top of it!
jnthn Apparently Slovak natives can kinda follow Polish.
masak this is what I like about the slavic part of Eastern Europe. 11:19
jnthn I don't find such though. Czech is close enough, but Polish feels just that little too bit different.
*bit too
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jnthn But then, I'm anything but native. I'm not even good. :-) 11:20
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masak hm, both Polish and Czech are in the West Slavic group. but they might of course be a bit far apart... 11:22
jnthn rakudo: class SquareHash does Positional { method postcircumfix:<{ }> ($val) { $val ** 2 } }; my SquareVal $x .= new; say $x<4>;
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«Malformed declaration at line 1, near "SquareVal "␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
jnthn rakudo: class SquareHash does Positional { method postcircumfix:<{ }> ($val) { $val ** 2 } }; my SquareHash $x .= new; say $x<4>; 11:23
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«16␤»
jnthn rakudo: class SquareHash does Positional { method postcircumfix:<{ }> (Int $val) { $val ** 2 } }; my SquareHash $x .= new; say $x<4>;
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected something matching Int() but got something of type Str() for $val in call to postcircumfix:{ }␤in method SquareHash::postcircumfix:{ } (/tmp/lWedfElKgV:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/lWedfElKgV:1)␤»
jnthn rakudo: class SquareHash does Positional { method postcircumfix:<{ }> (Int $val) { $val ** 2 } }; my SquareHash $x .= new; say $x{4};
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«16␤»
jnthn win
oh, but s/Positional/Associative/. Oops. :-) 11:24
masak still. quite nice.
jnthn rakudo: class SquareList does Positional { method postcircumfix:<[ ]> (Int $val) { $val ** 2 } }; my SquareList $x .= new; say $x[4]; 11:25
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«elements() not implemented in class 'SquareList'␤»
jnthn :-(
rakudo: class SquareList does Positional { method postcircumfix:<[ ]> (Int $val) { $val ** 2 }; method elems() { Inf } }; my SquareList $x .= new; say $x[4]; 11:26
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«elements() not implemented in class 'SquareList'␤»
jnthn Aww.
masak what does elements() have to do with anything? 11:27
jnthn masak: Consider a @foo[*-1] 11:28
The * needs the number of elements.
patmat jnthn i still cant build rakudo on mac os x, i installed gcc successfully 11:29
i paste it one moment
jnthn patmat: OK; unfortunately, I know nothing about OS X though...
masak: Though we may be going looking for an element count too early.
masak jnthn: seems so to me. 11:30
if I compile a Perl 6 script to .pir, should I be able to run the PIR file with parrot after that? 11:33
patmat pastie.org/private/g0dn4plgnuxt1oxfgtdlbg 11:34
that's it :)
masak I have a case when I get a Null PMC access in get_string() when running a precompiled PIR file, but not when running the Perl 6 script directly. 11:35
patmat: how did you acquire gcc?
jnthn masak: You should be able to yes.
patmat masak i search the site, one moment.. i didnt install xcode 11:39
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patmat hpc.sourceforge.net/index.php that's it masak, the leopard thinhg 11:41
at the last line you see, that gcc is installed 11:45
masak patmat: I'm using XCode. it works well. 11:50
jnthn masak: Is there a longer-term plan for Proto that sees it moving away from being shell scripts? 11:53
masak: Oh, I see proto itself is 11:54
jnthn wsa looking at the create_new_project script
masak jnthn: 'proto' is a Perl 5 script, 'installer' is a small Perl 6 script.
patmat masak ok i install XCode then :)
jnthn masak: Does the create_new_project script to much other than just set up a makefile and some sensible directory structure? 11:56
masak jnthn: in trying to track down why wizard.pl in examples/games/ in the Pugs repo doesn't work, I tried precompiling it and running the PIR. then I got a Null PMC access.
jnthn: no, that's pretty much what it does.
jnthn: it prints what it's about to do, so read that if you're curious. 11:57
jnthn masak: I was pondering some module hacking, and figured I might try out the create_new_project script, that's all.
masak yes, sounds nice. :) 11:58
jnthn: easiest way to understand what create-new-script does is to try it out, I think.
it doesn't do anything irreversible.
jnthn masak: One problem. It's a shell script. ;-) 11:59
masak oh. :/
mberends: maybe we should have made it a Perl 5 script?
jnthn Thus my question about proto in general, but happily the rest is written in Perl, which means thre's a good chance of making them work on Windows too.
masak jnthn: I would translate it to a .BAT file, but I'm afraid I don't have the patience or the expertise. 12:00
jnthn masak: imho you'd be better spending the time translating to Perl.
masak I used to be a .BAT master, but that was in the 90s.
jnthn: aye.
jnthn Yeah, I'd really not want to convert it to a BAT. 12:01
Most of the BAT scripts I've ever written do a couple of little things and if there's hard stuff they run a Perl script to do it. ;-)
masak once wrote an adventure game with only .BAT files. 12:02
jnthn Did you get any less masochistic since? :-)
mberends oh hai. yes, but the same as with the 'proto' script, it was easier to start 'create-new-project' in bash, believe it or not
jnthn masak: When I run wizzard.pl I get a type mis-match error.
With a Perl 6 line number though. \o/ 12:03
masak jnthn: yes. me too.
patmat is Perl6 going to be a good language for "real" Applications on an OS? Or is it recommended mostly for web apps?
masak oh, I don't think I got the line number...
masak pulls
patmat I'm just asking because of languages like Java and C# for example
jnthn Number, output doesn't handle anonymous subs as well as I'd like yet.
s/Number/Hmm/ 12:04
patmat: There's no reason why not, though it's for sure missing libraries so far that'd make it good for that.
mberends masak: translating from bash to Perl 5 is left as an exercise for the reader ;) 12:05
patmat _at the moment_ you mean, right?
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jnthn patmat: Right, at the moment it's lacking libraries to do GUI apps. But if they were written, I think you could do that kind of thing nicely in Perl 6. 12:06
patmat masak: installed Xcode before, tried to build rakudo again, another error, i'm going to paste it
masak I'd be willing to collaborate with someone to make Druid work under Tk. 12:07
mberends patmat: web apps are just convenient and fun, it's definitely far more general purpose.
patmat jnthn great :) i asked because i think there should be a nice concurrency from the Open Source world to C#
OK there is Python at the moment...
pastie.org/private/qmqjxviyccegjpwqy4tig with XCode installed, masak 12:08
masak patmat: well, it's an improvement. :) 12:09
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masak I recognize that error, but don't remember what caused it. 12:09
patmat: you could try following the instructions in the last paragraph, though. :) 12:10
jnthn masak: I just got wizzard.pl to run.
masak jnthn++
jnthn: what was the problem?
jnthn masak: It gets much easier when you ahve the Perl 6 line numbers.
masak: It's actually an issue that we've hit and discussed before:
masak isn't surprised
jnthn rakudo: sub foo(Int $x) { }; foo((20..30).pick)
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«Parameter type check failed; expected something matching Int() but got something of type List() for $x in call to foo␤in sub foo (/tmp/jW36LVoPG6:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/jW36LVoPG6:1)␤»
jnthn rakudo: sub foo(Int $x) { }; foo((20..30).pick[0]) 12:11
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: ( no output )
jnthn masak: Line 184 or thereabouts.
And a similar issue a bit below.
masak looks
jnthn I guess patching .pick would maybe help.
(So that it doesn't return a list when only asked for one item)
Of course, if we do that somebody will later complain about the inconsistency... 12:12
patmat masak it doesn't work if i do that from the error message :/
masak yes.
jnthn: it's tricky.
jnthn masak: Aye, I'm not sure what the answer is. 12:13
patmat for parrot-config, which location should i give with that option?
because he can't find a parrot-config :P
masak patmat: ok, I think that your problem is easy to solve, but I don't have the knowhow. I would ask you to have patience until a more knowledgeable person comes along to help you.
patmat: it'll be worth it. Rakudo is way cool.
jnthn masak: We've sometimes gone with splitting up methods that return different things so they have different names.
patmat hehe masak i know, it works fine here on Ubuntu :) 12:14
jnthn If .pick only ever pack one and you had some other way to get many...
Or maybe if argumentless .pick gets one and .pick($val) always gives a list.
masak patmat: it works fine here on Darwin too. I don't understand why it doesn't for you...
jnthn So .pick(1) => list, .pick(2) => list, ... but .pick => one thingy.
patmat don't know ://
mberends patmat: try the suggestion after "ld: absolute addressing (perhaps -mdynamic-no-pic) used"
"Use '-read_only_relocs suppress' to enable text relocs" 12:15
masak jnthn: that does make a lot of sense.
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jnthn awww 12:17
What is your name: Jonathan
Greetings, Jonathan
Jonathaniscurrently in theLobby
Lexical '$DEBUG' not found
patmat mberends hmm thats over my know-how :P
mberends patmat: me too, just sifting the error messages. It affects 'libgmp', which is the Multiple Precision arithmetic library, and some kind of add function inside that. 12:19
patmat hmm ok thanks :/ i will google around
mberends 'ld' is generally run as a subprocess of 'cc' just before cc exits 12:20
you make be able to add '-read_only_relocs suppress' to a the appropriate 'cc' line in a Makefile 12:21
*may 12:22
actually, c++ line according to your output
masak mberends: a friend of mine was very pleased with the way proto 'Just Worked' when he wanted to have Rakudo/Parrot downloaded and built. now, he wants bleeding Rakudo, and proto can actually do this for you. just edit config.proto, delete projects/rakudo, and re-run proto. 12:23
mberends: he thought it was too complicated. :/
mberends: maybe we should think of a way to update Rakudo from proto itself. 12:24
mberends so cool!
masak mberends: he actually expected proto to do this already because, as he put it, "proto won the Nobel prize" 12:26
mberends sure, rakudo is a bootstrap type of project also
masak aye.
it feels great having a plan for this. :) 12:27
wow, seeing proto Just Work on someone else's box is intoxicating. 12:28
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mberends masak: I'll soon translate 'create-new-project' to Perl 5. 12:34
masak nice.
mberends for jnthn++
masak yes, I think the same arguments that applied for proto also apply for create-new-project.
mberends was there a problem with .pir precompile somewhere? 12:35
masak rakudo: foo() 12:36
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub foo␤»
masak mberends: yes and no. precompilation worked, but running the PIR afterwards didn't. 12:37
mberends masak: on your system? can the fault be reproduced? 12:38
masak mberends: update Pugs, precompile examples/games/wizard.pl, run parrot on it from the Rakudo dir -- presto, error. 12:39
what does the '1' mean in 'perl6_s1.pbc' ? 12:40
mberends stage 1
wizard.pl does not work anyway. "Type mismatch in assignment; expected something matching type Int but got something of type Array()" 12:42
masak mberends: that's right.
but I get a Null PMC access when running the PIR.
mberends method damage looks dodgy, wizard.pl:64, because the implied return has the 'if' modifier 12:50
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masak I haz a Parrot build failure. 12:51
gist.github.com/112669 12:52
mberends libintl : i18n? 12:53
masak likely.
mberends see if ports can help 12:54
masak mumbles irritatedly
...not supposed to get Parrot build failures...
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masak this all happens in an ifdef PARROT_HAS_GETTEXT in parrot.h 12:58
mberends possibly related to adding Unicode support to I/O? 13:00
masak might be.
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mberends tries the 'delete projects/rakudo' trick in /tmp to investigate 13:01
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masak -> store & 13:08
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mberends szabgab: hello 13:30
szabgab rehi
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ruoso Hello! 13:50
ruoso still has some rakudo corner cases to isolate
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rDM sdas 13:52
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ruoso jnthn, your journal post has an issue... Foo.new<abc> had the <abc> part hidden... you probably need to use &lt;abc&gt; 13:52
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ruoso pmurias, hi 13:53
jnthn, btw... I still get backtraceless Null PMC access in can()... 13:54
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jnthn ruoso: ah shit...when will use.perl.org just die... 13:56
ruoso hey masak`
mberends jnthn, spello Rakuod in blog post
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jnthn mberends: fixed, thanks... 13:57
ruoso rebuilt rakudo... but forgot to git pull...
ruoso --
jnthn ruoso: (backtraces missing for some exceptions) Yeah, I think I worked out why. I didn't figure out how to fix it yet... 13:58
mberends jnthn: missing version number in perl6 -v
ruoso hmmm... it's kinda bad, because it takes a whole 20 seconds to run it... debugging that with warnings is hard 13:59
jnthn ruoso: Patches welcome. :-P 14:00
I'll get to it soon.
ruoso is just an annoying user...
;)
jnthn It appears that exceptions thrown from C lack a resume continuation...but the comments in the code seems to suggest that they are resumable...so...confused. 14:01
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pmurias ruoso: hi 14:17
ruoso it seems that we need to fix the memory issues
pmurias yes, unexplainable segfault are annoying 14:18
ruoso pmurias, I think one leak is being caused by the root m0ld code in the .c files (both executable and so) 14:19
I think we're not releasing the main code after running it
pugs_svn r26848 | ruoso++ | [re-mildew] run tests with valgrind. We need no leaks! 14:20
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TimToady blurg 14:22
pmurias ruoso: you have seen the leak in make test in re-smop?
ruoso no
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ruoso looking 14:23
lichtkind hallo
pmurias fixing warnings cause by make in re-smop 14:24
lichtkind: hi
patmat is there a perl6.vim for auto completion and colors? i use gvim, it would be nice 14:26
LadyLuna1y www.pastie.org/480081 can anyone tell me, why he skips the elsif? 14:28
ruoso pmurias, hmmm... interesting that only the inner hash leaks which means that the outer hash is being destroyed...
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ruoso aha! pmurias we were running valgrind without the --show-reachable=yes 14:32
TimToady LadyLunacy: ich weiss nicht was sol es bedeutet
LadyLunacy uh
TimToady I don't know what it means
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LadyLunacy i think i got it ^^^ 14:32
forgot the prompt
sry for bothering :D
TimToady that's okay, brought back fond memories of studying German 35 years ago 14:33
well, closer to 40 now... 14:34
mberends patmat: there is pugs/util/perl6.vim 14:35
pugs_svn r26849 | ruoso++ | [re-smop] --show-reachable=yes in valgrind so we dont fool ourselves
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mberends patmat: I'd like to try it too, how do you tell gvim to use it? 14:35
pugs_svn r26850 | ruoso++ | [re-smop] oops... forgot to commit only one file instead of also committing the debug messages
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pugs_svn r26851 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] fix some warnings 14:37
patmat mberends i think the problem is, that perl5 and perl6 both use a .pl ending
gvim knows which plugin it should use because of the ending,right? 14:38
pmurias you can mark it explicitly too
ruoso: the valgrind error messages are a lot more sane now 14:39
ruoso yeah...
LadyLunacy TimToady, well your german respond was quite well :) 14:41
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ruoso valgrind could have an option to created a directed graph on the reachable pointers 14:44
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pmurias ruoso: it should, but do you think it's worth for us to write a tool which creates one? 14:54
masak (syntax colouring based on file ending)-- 14:55
ruoso hmm... not sure... but maybe we should get the old SMOP_LOWLEVEL_MEM_TRACE on
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TimToady jnthn: re pick, see S32-setting-library/Containers.pod:215 14:59
ruoso pmurias, I'm getting convinced the problem is in the outer m0ld being run....
lichtkind TimToady: howdy, will there be substitute for prefix:<=> ?
ruoso pmurias, the leaks in adhoc_signature.t are mostly related to the items used in the outer mold
TimToady get
or lines, if you want 'em all 15:00
rakudo: say +$*IN.lines
pmurias ruoso: the problem = ?
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«24␤» 15:01
ruoso thinks "lines" is too string-specific... Iterator is something more generic then that
TimToady rakudo: say +$*IN.lines.reverse
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«24␤»
TimToady rakudo: say +$*IN.lines.flip
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: ( no output )
TimToady o_O
ruoso pmurias, the leaks
TimToady rakudo: say (+$*IN.lines).flip 15:02
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«42␤»
TimToady ruoso: lines is documentation, we can certainly provide owtdi
lichtkind TimToady: yes that i know but i mean a real iconographic operator will not reemerge? 15:03
TimToady not in standard p6
ruoso while I miss the iconographic operator... prefix:<=> was really visually disturbing
$a = =$b
TimToady it was too huffmanized, actually 15:04
ruoso yeah... in fact most people should be using <== and ==> most of the time
lichtkind TimToady: what you mean by that?
TimToady we don't actually want to encourage people to process their iterators one element at a time if there's a way to do it as a list
ruoso the Iterator API is not supposed to be used directly
it's just how you provide your custom Iterator 15:05
TimToady lazy lists for lazy people :)
ruoso or when it's not really a list... but just a stream
caching the earlier results of a stream would be the role of a lazy list connected to your iterator 15:06
pmurias, the leak is probably being caused by the boilerplate... all leaks in the re-smop tests look the same... 15:09
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ruoso the leaks in different tests are the same, I mean 15:09
pmurias i'm currently fighting the lostframe.t leak 15:10
ruoso pmurias, oops... I've fixed that already
pmurias, forgot to commit... sorry
pugs_svn r26852 | ruoso++ | [re-smop] fix lost.t leak 15:11
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pugs_svn r26853 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] fixed some more warnings 15:14
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pmurias ruoso: i broke mildew... fixing 15:19
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ruoso pmurias, going for lunch... I realized the leaks are caused by init and destr themselves... 15:22
if you just init and destr every module as the boilerplate does, it already shows the leaks
pugs_svn r26854 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] undo mildew breakage in last commit 15:23
lichtkind TimToady: was the R meta op forced upon you ? 15:24
ruoso pmurias, s1p_init and s1p_destr are causing 10 leaks
and p6opaque is causing another
just the init and destr code by themselves
ruoso lunch &
lichtkind btw is there a reversed R in unicode? :)
15:27 nbrown left 15:34 amoc left
pugs_svn r26855 | pmurias++ | [re-smop] fix too small leaks 15:37
s1n ruoso: is there a good page explaining how the whole smop system is set up? 15:38
i always kinda wanted to play with it, but it was kinda difficult to know what was current and what each of the modules did
mberends lichtkind: Ǝᴚ∩S ;) www.fileformat.info/convert/text/upside-down.htm 15:39
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lichtkind mberends: danke, but looked for just mirrored not upside down 15:40
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mberends lichtkind: ᴙ (U+1D19 LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL REVERSED R) 15:46
and ʁ to complete the set
pmurias s1n: you can look at re-smop/README which has an rought explanation of what the different parts are 15:48
mberends rakudo: say "\c[LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL REVERSED R]" 15:49
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«ᴙ␤»
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mberends rakudo: print "\c[LATIN LETTER CAPITAL REVERSED R]" 15:50
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«perl6regex parse error: Unrecognized character name LATIN LETTER CAPITAL REVERSED R at offset 10, found 'L'␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:0)␤»
15:50 pmurias left
mberends rakudo: print "\c[LATIN LETTER SMALL CAPITAL REVERSED R]" 15:50
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«ᴙ»
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s1n doh, i just missed pmurias 16:04
patmat do you recommend Padre for Perl6? Or doesn't it work well? 16:09
mberends I recommend Padre, szabgab++ showed it working very well at NPW 16:10
patmat i have Ubuntu and there isnt a package yet? :( 16:11
mberends :( building it yourself is quite hard. Debian Testing (sid) has a package. 16:12
patmat yes i know :( even FC i think, but no Ubuntu grrr
www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=704052 that would do it?
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mberends It looks promising. Padre depends on many other recent libraries, getting those right often hinders people. 16:14
that Perlmonks one is seriously out of date by Padre standards 16:15
patmat oh? ok i wont use it then 16:16
try to build it myself maybe :/
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TimToady lichtkind: why would you think that R was forced? it was just an obvious generalization of some specific things we were struggling with earlier 16:17
and thus chosen willingly
patmat mberends: i try to build it with cpan, lets see!! 16:18
mberends patmat: is may not be easy, I gave up on Debian Stable :(
szabgab patmat, jump over to #padre if you need help ( irc.perl.org ) 16:19
mberends *it
szabgab++
szabgab mberends, you too :-)
mberends yes, sir!
szabgab Alias and tsee are over there now and can help you 16:20
I am off to dinner&
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patmat great i will join the channel if cpan doesnt work 16:22
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lichtkind TimToady: it looked like the idea was not from your head 16:46
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jnthn masak`: ping 17:02
masak` jnthn: pong. 17:03
rakudo: for 1..3 { LAST { say $_ } } 17:04
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«Could not find non-existent sub LAST␤»
jnthn masak`: If I'm hacking on some modules, is it gets to create a separate git repo per module, or is it OK to have one repo with directories for each module?
That is, will I upset proto by having one repo with many modules? 17:05
I notice you seem to have a repo for each module / project, but wondered if that was convenience/how you like it, or because that's what works.
masak` jnthn: well...
jnthn erm, is it *better* to... 17:06
masak` jnthn: I tend to start with all modules in one repo.
jnthn Ah, OK.
masak` and then, when I need to, I separate them out.
jnthn OK, but if I have one repo with a few modules in, that I think should be separately installable, will proto handle them as individual modules? 17:07
masak` defined 'installable'.
mberends jnthn: git retrieves a whole repo together, such as perl6-examples, resulting in too much clutter.
masak` s/ed/e/
jnthn mberends: Oh, that's a very good point...
masak`: Well, I'm not sure I can - I never played with the installer. :-) 17:08
masak`: I'm just asking you as someone who wrote quite a few already, what the Best Practice is.
masak` jnthn: you'll get a project, all-or-nothing.
jnthn: we don't have Best Practices, just Well-Thought-Out practices. :P
mberends gitorious has just begun a 2-tier hierarchy, project then repository, and you download a repository only. proto does not support that yet.
jnthn masak`: OK, I think best is I put unrelated things in their own repo. 17:09
And maybe have another repo for things I'm playing with that I don't expect to go far.
A public dumping place. :-)
masak` sounds like a plan. 17:10
I have a number of small local repos with toy ideas, and which I don't know if I'll ever push.
jnthn thinks it's time that he started using Rakudo to see how it feels from a user perspective.
masak` jnthn: on a scale from easy to hard, how hard would it be to implement LAST {} ? 17:11
jnthn: I'm thinking of having a go.
jnthn checks the spec...
s04 yes?
masak` aye.
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jnthn Ah, so it just runs at the end of the loop overall? 17:12
masak` there's a bit of ambiguity there, actually. 17:13
jnthn Yeah
Hmm. It looks like it should be control-exception-y.
masak` does it only run upon normal termination, or also when things like 'last' and 'return' are called?
jnthn Yeah, that was what I was wondering.
masak` wishes there were a NONLAST { ... } block 17:14
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jnthn masak: I'm not quite sure how that'd be done...it may be as simple as installing a typed exception handler to catch explicit "last"s, but making sure it happens in other cases if it needs to as well as in non-exceptional loop termination, not quite so sure. 17:15
I'm pretty weak on the whole control flow stuff - Tene++ is the guy in the know in this area. 17:16
Tene I am!
jnthn is exactly right here.
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jnthn Tene: On the typed exception handler bit? 17:17
mberends jnthn: S04 LAST suggests it's called under all circumstances.
masak mberends: it says 'loop termination'. which might be ambiguous.
Tene jnthn: if it happens on all loop exits, it doesn't need to catch 'last' specifically, depending on how it's written.
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Tene but it certainly could be a typed EH, with a label that is jump'd to on normal loop termination, oslt 17:18
masak so this prints "OH HAI"? sub foo { for 1..1e3 { LAST { say "OH HAI"; } return } }
jnthn masak: It depends what your definition of "is"^W"loop termination" is. 17:20
mberends jnthn: no-one will blame you for assuming the most likely interpretation
masak jnthn: "yes".
mberends: which is the most likely interpretation?
jnthn I guess if you return from a loop then the loop is terminated.
masak one could argue it is, yes. :) 17:21
jnthn mberends: It's very clear on the semantics of NEXT and abnormal termination. 17:22
But it seems less clear on LAST.
mberends masak: "my" interpretation ;) [every exit]
masak on the other hand, a 'take' in a loop does not interrupt the loop, it just pauses it.
mberends: :)
jnthn I'm not sure take is relevant here.
masak maybe not.
jnthn LAST {...} at loop termination time, after any LEAVE
masak depends on how it will do the lazy thing. 17:23
jnthn "after any LEAVE" is the key here I think.
And I am pretty sure we run the LEAVE no matter how we leave the block.
masak why?
well, 'any' can have different meanings here... :P
jnthn Yeah, I was just realizing that after I wrote it...
Tene jnthn: even leave() ?
;)
jnthn Tene: I've pretty sure explicitly leaving a block *should* run LEAVE. :-) 17:24
masak 's head swims slightly
jnthn Tene: S04 could just be implying an ordering rather than a promise of execution here though. Hmm.
masak exactly.
well put.
so the quantum wave is still uncollapsed. 17:25
jnthn There's always a chance it'll collapse when it interacts with a TimToady.
masak our own Schrodinger's kitten herder. :) 17:26
LOL, I CAN HAZ... *collapse*
jnthn Surely that's after the collapse, and before kitteh knows not if it can haz? ;-) 17:27
.oO( the places trying to understand the Perl 6 spec leads us... )
 17:28
masak abstrusegoose.com/7 # I might have shown this one before. :) 17:29
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jnthn :D 17:29
ruoso s1n, hi 17:30
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s1n ruoso: hi 17:31
mib_y5l561 MAC ATICAK TEAM SERVER ON 17:32
s1n ruoso: i read the README as per pmurias' recommendation, there are _tons_ of parts to re-smop
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ruoso s1n, it has been a long way 17:33
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ruoso s1n, the lowdoc is an interesting source for catching up 17:35
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s1n goes off reading 17:36
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s1n ruoso: this is all probably over my head :/ 17:43
ruoso: this responderinterface sounds like smalltalk's message passing... 17:44
ruoso s1n, smalltalk was indeed one of the influences 17:45
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s1n ruoso: there seems to be a heavy dependence on macros, has that been a PITA to debug? 17:49
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ruoso the refcount gc is the worse part to debug... the macros are sometimes actually helpfull, so you can place the debug in the macro itself 17:50
but the macros are very lightweight
but keeping a refcount gc will be a key aspect to support p5 integration 17:51
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s1n ruoso, pmurias: if i wanted to hack on smop, where would you recommend? 18:01
ruoso s1n, I think the part that would be easier to mess with would be mildew 18:04
which is the compiler that uses STD as parser and targets smop as backends
TimToady jnthn: S04:1122 discusses the semantics of LAST 18:05
grep is your friend 18:06
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TimToady groceries & 18:06
mikehh_ /nick mikehh
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s1n ruoso: what needs to be done there? 18:14
ruoso there's no much support for lists yet 18:15
s1n, start by creating a test in the ROADMAP DIR
like for @a := 1,2,3 18:16
s1n, in the re-mildew dir
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s1n ruoso: okay, not really sure where to begin adding lists.... 18:17
i.e. where is scalar defined so i can see how that works? 18:18
pmurias perl6: say "1" 18:20
p6eval elf 26855, pugs, rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«1␤»
eMaX moin
kurzte frage
anyone knows how to get Term::ReadKey to work on windows?
I've got a small app (mytop) that I want to run in a windows env 18:21
masak eMaX: hello, this is #perl6.
ruoso s1n, take a look at the re-mildew/src/VAST/*.pm
masak eMaX: we are very happy to answer question on Perl 6.
eMaX: your question sounds like a Perl 5 question.
eMaX: there are other fora for that.
ruoso s1n, you'll see how the parse tree is turned into mildew AST
mildew: say "Hello from mildew!" 18:22
p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Bareword found where operator expected at perl6-snapshot/STD.pm line 4, near "$LANG is"␤ (Missing operator before is?)␤Bareword found where operator expected at perl6-snapshot/STD.pm line 5, near "$PKGDECL is"␤ (Missing operator before is?)␤Bareword found where operator expected
.....
ruoso pmurias, it seems that a "make" is missing in the evalbot
pmurias ruoso: the Scalar itself is defined in re-smop/s1p/src/scalar.ri
ruoso s1n, ^
s1n pmurias: looks like some macro magic :) 18:24
pmurias it's written in the RI DSL as defined in tool/ri
we use it to avoid copy & paste and hardcoded bytecode magic 18:25
s1n mildew: my $a;
p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Bareword found where operator expected at perl6-snapshot/STD.pm line 4, near "$LANG is"␤ (Missing operator before is?)␤Bareword found where operator expected at perl6-snapshot/STD.pm line 5, near "$PKGDECL is"␤ (Missing operator before is?)␤Bareword found where operator expected
.....
s1n oh yeah heh
RI's DSL looks like C with some shortcuts 18:27
18:27 payload1 left
pmurias is fixing the evalbot atm 18:27
s1n: that's basicly what it is
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s1n this is interesting but kinda tough to make heads from tails 18:27
pmurias looking at the the post proccesed code in build/s1p/src/scalar.c can help figuring out what it does 18:28
s1n pmurias: ooo, it re-smop needs ghc? i don't have that... 18:30
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ruoso s1n, are you in a linux machine? 18:30
s1n ruoso: yup
ruoso which linux?
s1n gentoo, bout 3 month old portage
ruoso hmm 18:31
s1n last i checked, ghc was having problems so i removed it
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ruoso getting ghc in gentoo will be a challenge 18:31
s1n yes, it was, that's why i removed it
ruoso s1n, are you familiar with Parse::RecDescent?
s1n ruoso: barely, i know of it
ruoso s1n, well... you could drop the dependency of haskelll
you just need to write the m0ld compiler in p5
masak jnthn: ping 18:32
s1n ruoso: is m0ld supposed to be ebnf?
ruoso: and if i rewrite the compiler, what is it supposed to output? perl5?
ruoso the C code to initialize the mold bytecode 18:33
s1n ruoso: hmm, interesting, can you gist some built C code?
ruoso yes
gist.github.com/112765 18:35
first you have the constants
then you have the bytecode
s1n so it really generates bytecode?
ruoso yes 18:36
gist.github.com/112766
^ the m0ld code that generated the bytecode above
if you understand a bit of haskell you can see the m0ld source in haskell today 18:37
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s1n i don't know (or really care to) know haskell 18:37
pmurias haskell is way cool :)
ruoso haskell is cool, but I can't really understand its synta 18:38
s1n but the bytecode is converted into m0ld in that gist?
ruoso the m0ld is converted into bytecoe
(the second is the first to the first gist)
gah
(the second is the source to the first gist)
s1n so the second gist is turned into the first gist? 18:39
ruoso yes 18:41
s1n, you probably want to look at re-smop/mold/src/mold.c
which is the interpreter code
s1n all these terms and parts to the system... head is swimming in clever names 18:42
ruoso s1n, around line 285
s1n smop_mold_frame_message i assume is basically going to pass a message ala smalltalk 18:43
pmurias it handles the message
18:44 masak left
s1n ruoso, pmurias: do you guys have a hard time attracting new developers? 18:45
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pmurias i haven't really tried that yet 18:46
s1n i ask because i had always wanted to help with a c/c++ compiler/interpreter but smop looks like it has a sufficiently steep learning curve 18:47
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ruoso every compiler has... 18:57
s1n ruoso: you're probably right, i've never worked on one :/ 18:59
pmurias the learning curve to smop isn't very long OTOH, most of what the runtime does is defining and running methods 19:05
lichtkind how long is moritz chief of test suite? 19:14
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eMaX thanks 19:34
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jdlugosz Hello y'all 20:10
mberends hi! 20:12
jdlugosz Anyone around here listening? I see a huge list, but I'm guessing they just stay logged in. 20:13
patmat not true! 20:14
here is a lot going on!
mberends :) too many people watching Eurovision song contest? 20:15
jdlugosz something with my connection then? I see only 5 lines since I came in.
TimToady jdlugosz: welcome!
jdlugosz Thanks, @Tim.
Anyone here using Windows? I think I could do with a better IRC client, or at least some configuration advice for mIRC. 20:16
mberends jdlugosz: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/today
TimToady I believe jnthn is doing most of his rakudo devel on windows
jnthn Aye, I am.
But I have an account on feather
And use PuTTY (SSH client) to connect to that, and connect from there to IRC. 20:17
So I'm not actually using a Windows IRC client...
TimToady many of us with flakey connections tend to use ssh to some more stable machine
jnthn Aye, + screen.
TimToady then you can detach and reattach to the same session 20:18
jnthn jdlugosz: I did use XChat at one point. It was ugly, but kinda worked...
jdlugosz mIRC appears to be not free after all, and is cutting off the decenders of my input line, making me keep thinking I have typos and backspacing to retype the same thing. Most annoying.
jnthn failsoft. 20:19
I don't remember XChat being quite that annoying
Even if it wasn't perfect.
www.xchat.org/
jdlugosz Anyway, I just (or rather, Anuwau. I iust !) finished doing a DIFF on S02 from a copy 1 year ago. 20:20
Can someone help me catch up on "what became of prefix = and iterators"? Or is that just for IO? 20:21
mberends .get and .lines 20:23
TimToady prefix:<=> was deemed too ugly to teach to newbies, and dehuffmanized to .get
jnthn prefix:<=>'s behavior in different contexts was also causing some issues.
jdlugosz I suppose you could still use term:<?> as an alias. Does unicode work on this IRC thing? 20:24
I guess not. 20:25
TimToady term:<?> would cause parsing ambiguity with prefix:<?>
jdlugosz See my page on <www.dlugosz.com/Perl6/web/APL.html>
TimToady yes, if you're client is set to utf-8
☺ should be a smiley 20:26
jdlugosz @Tim: the ? is a encoding munge. I really typed a U+235E.
TimToady ⍞, that would be in utf-8
but we're trying to avoid things outside Latin-1 range for standard p6 20:27
it's fine if libraries bring those in though
jdlugosz I'm joking, mostly. I wrote a page on APL-izing Perl 6.
TimToady "use Set" is likely to bring in set ops, for instance
oh we never joke here... ;) 20:28
jdlugosz Joke idea, but goes over custom operators and terms, and functions to modify other functions.
TimToady have you seen the periodic table of the operators?
jdlugosz So .get is the generic iterate-one-item thing now?
TimToady yes
jdlugosz No, never seen periodic table of operators. 20:29
And rather than behaving differently in list context, .lines is a different function?
TimToady there's a link to it from perl6-projects.org
correct
and intentionally named as a noun rather than a verb
so that people will think of the set of lines as something to work with 20:30
we're doing all sorts of subtle things to encourage list processing over scalar processing
jdlugosz What about a specific number of lines? $a,$b,$c = $IN.get; ? Or .lines? Or what?
TimToady .lines(42) works 20:31
so my ($a,$b,$c) = $*IN.lines(3)
jdlugosz .lines(42) but you have to count the things on the left yourself.
TimToady yes
jdlugosz It's not behaving as a lazy list/iterator itself, even though that's the primitive for iterators? 20:32
TimToady but lines() is lazy, so if you want to just throw the rest away, that's fine
jdlugosz Oh, so lines doesn't advance, it's the whole collection?
TimToady yes, it's intended to refer to the whole collection 20:33
jdlugosz Stupid mIRC doesn't copy text from output window!!
So .lines again will give the same items.
TimToady uh, it's up to the filehandle to keep state on that, I expect 20:34
jdlugosz That's why it's a noun, and get is a verb.
TimToady so .lines(3) would give you the next three lines
but that's just a shortcut for get;get;get really 20:35
jdlugosz So it shifts the collection, rather than being the collection.
TimToady it modifies a mutable view of the collection
jdlugosz So you're counting on the lazyness saving the side-effect of advancing the pointer. 20:36
my ($a, $b, $c) = $*IN.lines;
TimToady that would thrown all the rest away, I think
jdlugosz my ($a, $b, $c) = $*IN.lines(*);
TimToady that could be made to work, possibly 20:37
jdlugosz It would work by returning the kind of iterator that I expected $*IN to be in the first place.
TimToady except, of course, that $*IN in a list context doesn't do anything 20:38
jdlugosz my @list = $*IN.lines; 20:39
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TimToady that's all of 'em 20:39
jdlugosz due to lazyness, it should read from the file and consume memory only if/when they are used from the front of the list. 20:40
TimToady but @list can do it lazily
if it decides .lines is potentially infinite
we don't enforce strict laziness
the implementation of an iterator is allowed to work ahead in batches
jdlugosz Sure, it reads ahead as many as it feels like.
A lazy list of "made of" iterators, that are cranked to produce more items. 20:41
TimToady it's turtles down however far you like it to be :) 20:42
jdlugosz So what is .lines returning other than a lazy list, containing the iterator, when $*IN is the iterator itself?
So .lines just packages self up as a lazy list.
TimToady $*IN isn't the iterator; it contains the iterator 20:43
jdlugosz OK, like $x isn't a dog, it's an item containing a dog. But an item container is mostly invisible.
TimToady $foo is always one level of indirection from the "naked" object
not invisible in list context 20:44
jdlugosz I'm familiar with that.
TimToady so in fact, you can say @$*IN to get the same effect as .lines
but .lines is deemed to be good documentation
jdlugosz Ah, so you can do that, just not (no longer?) implicitly.
TimToady never was implicit, really 20:45
it was just = before
jdlugosz Which reminds me... I see changes in using the sigils are operators or tokens or whatever by themselves
Is @$x different from @ $x ?
TimToady the latter is now illegal 20:46
std: @ $x
p6eval std 26855: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Anonymous variable requires declarator at /tmp/3ZqUQ5hZd0 line 1:␤------> @ $x␤ expecting any of:␤ prefix or noun␤ statement list␤ variable␤ whitespace␤FAILED 00:02 36m␤»
TimToady to catch when people say:
std: my ($a, $, @x) = 1,2,3
p6eval std 26855: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 38m␤»
TimToady but leave out the my
std: ($a, $, @x) = 1,2,3
p6eval std 26855: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Obsolete use of $, variable; in Perl 6 please use .join() method instead at /tmp/cs3zDLqfNz line 1:␤------> ($a, $, @x) = 1,2,3␤Other potential difficulties:␤ Variable $a is not predeclared at /tmp/cs3zDLqfNz line 1:␤------> ($a, 20:47
.....
TimToady ooh, wrong message :)
but you get the idea
std: ($a, $ , @x) = 1,2,3
p6eval std 26855: OUTPUT«##### PARSE FAILED #####␤Anonymous variable requires declarator at /tmp/OlaOPrdR6L line 1:␤------> ($a, $ , @x) = 1,2,3␤ expecting any of:␤ null term␤ variable␤Other potential difficulties:␤ Variable $a is not predeclared at /tmp/OlaOPrdR6L line 1:␤------>
.....
TimToady I'll have to de-emphasize the $, message
jdlugosz (reviewing s02) OK, I see. @ prefix with no space is equivilent to ARRAY operator. And that's the end of it. 20:48
literal why was lvalue undef replaced with $ ?
TimToady it wasn't 20:49
it was replaced with *
std: ($a, *, $c) = 1,2,3
p6eval std 26855: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $a is not predeclared at /tmp/n5fLZ7hbmB line 1:␤------> ($a, *, $c) = 1,2,3␤ Variable $c is not predeclared at /tmp/n5fLZ7hbmB line 1:␤------> ($a, *, $c) = 1,2,3␤ok 00:02 37m␤»
literal oh, right
TimToady errands, back in about .5 hour 20:50
&
jdlugosz My diff digesting confuses me a bit. Gotta remember what's coming and what's going. <g>.
TimToady feel free to ask questions, I'll backlog
literal std: ($first, *, $third_or_fifth) = 1,2,3,4,5
p6eval std 26855: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $first is not predeclared at /tmp/K3LnL6f4rs line 1:␤------> ($first, *, $third_or_fifth) = 1,2,3,4,5␤ Variable $third_or_fifth is not predeclared at /tmp/K3LnL6f4rs line 1:␤------> ($first, *, $third_or_fifth) =
..1,2,3,4...
literal std: my $first, $third_or_fifth; ($first, *, $third_or_fifth) = 1,2,3,4,5 20:51
p6eval std 26855: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Variable $third_or_fifth is not predeclared at /tmp/xnYOIKBmcS line 1:␤------> my $first, $third_or_fifth; ($first, *, $third_or_fifth) = 1,2,3,4␤ Variable $third_or_fifth is not predeclared at /tmp/xnYOIKBmcS line 1:␤------>
..rd_or_fi...
literal mkay 20:52
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ruoso pmurias, aha! finally 21:47
-%DESTORYALL { 21:48
+%DESTROYALL {
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pugs_svn r26856 | ruoso++ | [re-smop] fix one important leak... now we got down to 3 errors instead of 11; 21:50
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pugs_svn r26857 | ruoso++ | [re-smop] fix more leaks... now we have just 2 errors that are not memory leaks 22:04
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pina so what do you guys think of the wolfram alpha 22:08
pugs_svn r26858 | ruoso++ | [re-smop] hmmm... the errors I was aware were fixed, but now oone test is showing other errors... 22:09
pina pretty cool it can check ip addresses
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pugs_svn r26859 | ruoso++ | [re-smop] last test passing... no valgrind errors or warnings! 22:13
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literal pina: what do you think of Wolfram Beta? www.wolframsbeta.com/ 22:20
pina whats with beta 22:22
cspencer are there known failures in the spectest suite? (specifically in t/spec/S04-statements/do.t) 22:24
jnthn cspencer: That one appeared a couple of days back. 22:25
cspencer jnthn: okay, thank you :)
jnthn cspencer: Not sure what's wrong with it, but it's not just you that's seeing it.
cspencer jnthn: good to hear, i'd just pulled into a branch with modifications and wasn't sure if it was changes i'd made 22:27
jnthn :-) 22:28
cspencer jnthn: it's nice to see that infix/posfix/etc operators can be define now :) 22:29
s/define/defined/
pmurias ruoso: not having memory leaks in the re-smop is very nice :) 22:30
ruoso indeed...
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ruoso pmurias, now we just need to do the same in mildew... 22:30
eternaleye I have no idea how someone that stupid has not autodarwinated yet.
Gah, dang up arrow
jnthn ... 22:31
:-)
eternaleye Backogging, and I forgot to hold down Shift. Also, (shared input buffer between channels)--
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jnthn At least it wasn't like, "I put on my coat and wizzard hat." 22:32
eternaleye Yeah, bloodninja quotes would not be good 22:33
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ruoso rakudo: say False 22:40
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«0␤»
ruoso rakudo: say ~False 22:41
p6eval rakudo ec55f1: OUTPUT«0␤»
ruoso hmm...
pugs_svn r26860 | ruoso++ | [re-smop] native bool implements Str
ruoso just noticed it was wrongly implemented...
mildew: say False
p6eval mildew: OUTPUT«Bareword found where operator expected at perl6-snapshot/STD.pm line 4, near "$LANG is"␤ (Missing operator before is?)␤Bareword found where operator expected at perl6-snapshot/STD.pm line 5, near "$PKGDECL is"␤ (Missing operator before is?)␤Bareword found where operator expected
.....
ruoso meh
ruoso later &
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