»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by Juerd on 28 August 2009.
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jrtayloriv which parts of actions.pm would I look in, if I wanted to understand how Rakudo generates the PAST for this? --> my $sub_ref = { say "hello" } 00:05
i.e. for storing a ref to an anonymous sub in a scalar 00:07
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jrtayloriv i.e. for storing a ref to an anonymous sub in a scalar 00:09
ahh
oops I meant --> my $sub_ref = sub () { say "hello" }
jrtayloriv feels like his brain got replaced with a sack of three-week old hamburger meat. 00:10
diakopter oh, you must've gotten my brain 00:11
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jrtayloriv :) 00:14
diakopter eureka! just finally realized how to make ok() and is() and isnt() work
without going to a ton of wasteful trouble 00:15
wayland76 Why did you say "Give me a towel" in Ephebian? 00:17
diakopter convention 00:18
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quietfanatic diakopter: precedence 00:36
diakopter hm 00:41
preceDENT
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sjohnson howdy wayland76 long time no see 02:42
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pugs_svn r28444 | lwall++ | [S12] require parens on .'method'() form 02:44
r28445 | jimmy++ | [Spec/S02-bits.pod]fixed typo, intro -> into. 02:52
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diakopter JimmyZ: ping 03:02
JimmyZ hello
diakopter last commit - it is an 'intro line' 03:03
JimmyZ ah
diakopter how about this instead, though
JimmyZ not split sth. into sth? 03:04
diakopter "so you can split heredoc introduction lines when they are excessively long: 03:05
"
sez Ceiling Cat himself
JimmyZ I see.
diakopter Vicar of Ceiling Cat at the moment 03:07
pugs_svn r28446 | jimmy++ | [Spec/S02-bits.pod]revert r28445, it's not typo. diakopter++ and JimmyZ-- 03:13
r28447 | lwall++ | [STD] 03:14
r28447 | require () on .'foo'() calls
r28447 | delete obsolete .:foo form
r28448 | jimmy++ | [zh-cn/syn/S02-bits.pod]added more translation for Whitespace and Comment, which is done. diakopter++ for clarify. 03:15
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buu Hrm 04:05
Is there any documentation regarding decision decisions about false values in perl5?
eR 04:06
Design decisions
quietfanatic Perl5? I believe 0, "", and "0" are all considered false. 04:07
I think that's documented somewhere.
yes, in perldoc perldata 04:08
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pugs_svn r28449 | diakopter++ | [vijs] implement Test.pm in JavaScript. ready to *try to* run the test suite after some more file moving 04:22
r28450 | diakopter++ | [vijs] file rearranging... 04:26
r28451 | diakopter++ | [vijs] more files 04:36
r28452 | diakopter++ | [vijs] file movement 04:37
r28453 | diakopter++ | [vijs] more file deletion/movement 04:38
r28454 | diakopter++ | [vijs] more file movement 04:40
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mikehh rakudo (0331d60) builds on parrot r41540 - make test / make spectest_smolder (up to 28454 -> #28223) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 04:55
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mberends sorry diakopter, tuit fail :( commute & 05:04
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pugs_svn r28455 | diakopter++ | [vijs] yay; test mode works 05:30
diakopter phenny: tell pmurias I moved most of vijs back the way it was (except the main .pl you split out), b/c it was just too difficult to run it in a different directory with the new test mode .setting 05:32
phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when pmurias is around.
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Woodi hi, i would like to report bug/issue in rakudo build process: generating src/gen_setting.pir on 128Mb machine failed - not finished in 8h becouse of swapping 05:36
maybe proces can be divided in some way ? 05:37
diakopter std: say 3 05:38
p6eval std 28454: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 95m␤»
pugs_svn r28456 | diakopter++ | [vijs] fixing paths 05:39
diakopter std: say 3 05:41
p6eval std 28454: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 95m␤»
pugs_svn r28457 | diakopter++ | [vijs] remove vijs specifics from STD Makefile
Woodi k, send to hi, i would like to report bug/issue in rakudo build process: generating src/gen_setting.pir on 128Mb machine failed - not finished in 8h becouse of swapping 05:48
[09:36] < Woodi> maybe proces can be divided in some way ?
sory, send to rakudobugs 05:49
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Woodi hwy, what is SMOP status ? i mean: what is p6 status on SMOP? and why noone implements p6 in plain C ? or just lex/bison rules for getting C code... 06:47
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moritz_ SMOP is "just" a runtime library 06:53
there's a compiler that targets it, it's called "mildew"
pmurias is working on that
Woodi so SMOP is another parrot ? so what about p6 ? :)
moritz_ the reason not to use flex/bison is that we learned from Perl 5 that it's not a good idea 06:54
it makes it rather hard to modify the grammar dynamically
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Woodi it's fast... 06:54
by grammar you mean general p6 grammar or grammar of sub-languages/rules ? 06:56
moritz_ both
Woodi k, will think about now 06:59
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Matt-W Morning 07:40
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pugs_svn r28458 | lwall++ | [STD] 08:02
r28458 | make mechanism for checking infix ops in EXPR reduce
r28458 | delay .= check till EXPR reduction time
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Woodi how i can find STD i see everywhere ? :) is it std tests collection ? 08:11
Matt-W STD.pm is the canonical Perl 6 parser
it lives in the pugs repository
it doesn't actually run Perl 6, but it does tell you what it means
std: say "Is this okay?"
p6eval std 28454: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 95m␤»
moritz_ it's in src/perl6/ in the pugs repo 08:12
svn.pugscode.org/pugs/src/perl6/STD.pm
Matt-W moritz_++
Woodi so it is something like official p6 syntax source ? 08:14
Matt-W it's as close to an official parser as we're ever likely to get
jnthn Yes, it specifies the standard Perl 6 syntax.
Matt-W The intention is for it to be *the* parser really
makes my head hurt though
jnthn Rakudo is aiming to converge towards having a grammar very much like it.
And perhaps some day, identical. 08:15
Matt-W It makes sense, there's not much point having two different ones without a good technological reason
jnthn Aye, though right now we have technological reasons. ;-) 08:16
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jnthn looks forward to convergence. 08:16
moritz_ well, the most important reason is that deviations from the standard grammar have to work identically in all compilers 08:17
Matt-W aye but ours is temporary
jnthn Matt-W: Yes, true.
moritz_ and having the same grammar is basically the only option to ensure that
Matt-W it does help ensure compatibility :)
moritz_ otherwise you'd need a *very* clever emulation of that
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Matt-W although there will be incompatibilities, it's inevitable 08:17
moritz_ that's why we need a huge test suite. 08:18
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Matt-W mmm 08:21
moritz_ just noticed that the edit distance between 'huge' and 'hugme' is 1
Matt-W more tests! more tests!
moritz_ Matt-W: patches welcome :-) 08:22
Matt-W I knew you were going to say that
moritz_ (you know that was going to come, don't you? :-)
Matt-W Unfortunately I'm insanely busy at the moment
out every night this week again. I think I should cut back on something.
carlin phenny: tell masak to make a look at gist.github.com/195295
phenny carlin: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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moritz_ carlin: you could add that to the proto repo 08:24
carlin: (and if you don't have a commit bit for proto already I can give you one)
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Woodi ANSI p6 would be nice :) but i see STD.pm want more - instant source compability among compilers :) 08:26
moritz_ isn't that what all standards aim for? (but not always achieve, obviously) 08:27
Matt-W moritz_: that's the general idea, I thought
Woodi it is. ANSI/ECMA are like skeletons...
so tests are in pugs too ?
Matt-W yup 08:28
carlin moritz_: I'm not sure how best to integrate it into proto, ie. when it should install and how it should be installed
moritz_ carlin: just add it without installing it, the user can take herself 08:29
carlin: but having it in a repo is a big help, because it means it won't get lost
Woodi one thing more... how complete is STD.pm ? 08:31
pugs_svn r28459 | lwall++ | [t/spec/S12] require () on .'method' and friends
carlin moritz_: fair enough, if you give me a commit bit I'll add it in
moritz_ carlin: is you github ID also 'carlin'? 08:32
carlin carlins
with an 's'
moritz_ hugme: add carlins to proto
hugme hugs carlins. Welcome to proto!
carlin Thanks :) 08:33
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moritz_ that's hugme's real purpose - the hugging features are just playful additions 08:33
Matt-W hugme: hug moritz_ 08:39
hugme hugs moritz_
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masak yawns 08:59
phenny masak: 08:22Z <carlin> tell masak to make a look at gist.github.com/195295
masak carlin: you rock, sir. 09:01
moritz_ indeed 09:02
carlin++
we should have proto commits here reported by dalek 09:03
any objections?
masak none other than the usual one :)
moritz_ which one is the usual one?
masak that proto isn't the Real Thing, and we should be looking forwards as much as possible instead of getting comfy with proto. 09:04
maybe I'm gradually losing my license to say that, however, as proto development is mainly being guided by mberends++ and viklund++ nowadays...
moritz_ speaking of which
if we are to make proposals to the new CPAN meta spec, we need to so this week 09:05
I considered writing a spec for a 'language' or maybe 'compiler' attribute
masak do it!
moritz_ which the usual toolchain has to ignore if it's present and something different than 'perl5' or 'Perl 5' 09:06
but ENOTUITS so far
www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.w...sg199.html 09:07
2. The Call for Proposals will close on Oct. 1, 2009
moritz_ needs to hurry up
cognominal how a package level variable is stored in rakudo? 09:11
I suppose that's implemented by the namespace pmc... 09:12
moritz_ so do I
at least it's found by a get_hll_global 09:13
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jnthn Yes, get_hll_global walks through namespace PMCs to do its work. 09:32
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masak jnthn! 09:32
jnthn masak! 09:33
masak jnthn: you don't need a Twitter account, you're there anyway. last month it was in Japanese, this month it's in Korean. :)
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pugs_svn r28460 | jimmy++ | [zh-cn/syn/S02-bits.pod]added random translation, masak++ for explanation. 09:37
jnthn "real life Twittering" 09:38
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masak jnthn++ # RLT 09:39
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Matt-W imagine trying to talk in 140 characters or less 09:40
I'm always bumping into that limit on my tweets
masak Matt-W: so is everybody. I think the trick is to make it shape your tweets rather than limit them.
Matt-W: ...and, if that turns out to be totally impossible, write a blog post. :) 09:41
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pugs_svn r28461 | jimmy++ | [zh-cn/syn/S02-bits.pod]fixed typo. 09:42
Matt-W :)
yes
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Matt-W Hah, my work are trying to entice us all to have our free 'flu jabs by mentioning in every email that you get a sweetie 09:45
masak o? 09:46
Matt-W I think they mean the nurse gives you a lollipop afterwards 09:47
It also has a very big warning that this is not the vaccine for swine flu etc. etc. 09:48
although I hear they're on the verge of approving one of those, which is pretty impressive
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jnthn Matt-W: IMNSHO, a lollipop isn't really worth getting a needle stuck in your arm. 10:16
Matt-W jnthn: that's what I said
masak :)
Matt-W I'm not in the at-risk group for seasonal flu anyway
Perhaps if they offer us pandemic flu vaccines at some point
arnsholt I take it none of you are blood donors? =) 10:17
Matt-W Unfortunately not
my dad's donated loads
but I just can't face it. Makes me feel bad sometimes.
Surely I should be able to continue what he's doing 10:18
If you know any good treatments for phobias which the sufferer is fully aware of the irrationality of, please let me know
arnsholt Well, if you really have a problem with needles, its a valid excuse, if you ask me
masak gives blood
I don't like the thought of someone sticking a needle in me, but I trust the professionalism of the complete strangers who do it. 10:19
Matt-W Reading about it makes me squirm 10:20
Talking about doing it makes me feel nauseous
masak sorry. 10:21
Matt-W It's okay, I'm theo ne who mentioned it
masak I don't think I have very many phobias.
Matt-W It's my big one, head and shoulders above the others
jnthn Matt-W: I'm *extremely* hemophobic and in general hypocondriac.
masak I'm not afraid of heights. I even like complete darkness.
Patterner what about Clowns?
jnthn It is my only major issue.
Matt-W jnthn: I have no problem with blood, it's the needles
jnthn clowns are fine. 10:22
Matt-W: ah, ok
Matt-W trypanophobia I believe it's called
masak I'm deeply scared of massive ignorance, but I don't think that counts.
Patterner only if there is a long -phobia word for it
arnsholt Matt-W: My Greek is bad, but that sounds about right. Might be Trepanophobia
jnthn dumbidiotophobia
Matt-W "Trypanophobia, Belonephobia, Enetophobia – fear of needles or injections." according to wikipedia's list of phobias 10:23
cognominal PHPpobia
*PHPphobia
jnthn is has a hunger...bbiab 10:24
Patterner is it a phobia if it is justified?
TiMBuS a phobia is an irrational fear.
beaten 10:25
Matt-W yeah phobias of this type are supposed to be irrational
I know it's entirely irrational, one of my friends is an insulin-dependent diabetic and injects himself several times a day and comes to no harm (quite the opposite in fact), so why should I react so strongly to the idea of a simple vaccination? 10:26
masak gist.github.com/195336 # blog post example teaser
lunch & 10:27
Matt-W masak: that table creation call concerns me 10:28
shouldn't the field specs be pairs?
masak Matt-W: let's talk about it after lunch. :) 10:29
Matt-W: but yes, that's a valid point.
Ruby's Sequel used a "DSL" for the table creating... 10:30
Matt-W which we can't do yet 10:31
but we can probably do better once we've got macros 10:32
yes, after lunch
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carlin oh, all proto's commands accept multiple options 10:39
easy fix I think
How does proto track what is already installed?
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TiMBuS is there a way to reduce a match tree in rakudo to just a hash/array/string.. tree? 10:56
i know you can turn the current part of the tree into a hash using %() but it doesnt recurse down 10:57
cognominal jnthn, the marshall cache probably should per interpreter instead of per p5 namespace. Can I change that? 10:58
masak carlin: old way: check for directories under the project/ directory. new way: something with a status file. mberends will know the details. 11:06
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masak oh, and the old way is still the default. it's what the master branch does. 11:07
carlin A status file sounds good
then ./proto update <tab> could be made to only list installed projects 11:08
moritz_ TiMBuS: only by traversing, I think
TiMBuS: $/.caps or $/.chunks might help you with traversing 11:09
masak Matt-W: how about $DB.create_table: 'fruits', 'primary_key' => 'id', 'String' => 'name', 'Int' => 'qty';
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TiMBuS moritz_, aw :( 11:12
it gets annoying that i have too keep stringifying things as i pass them around 11:13
doesnt feel very perl
moritz_ no, it does not
when writing the code for the series operator I used an ugly workaround
take do { my $y = $x };
instead of 'take $x'; 11:14
TiMBuS agh
moritz_ that was a pretty ranty commit message 11:15
f2acdbb6487f6959894c457762e3bbc7ea2d6f7a
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masak moritz_: are those warn statements supposed to be part of the commit? 11:25
moritz_ masak: look at the next commit too :-)
masak aha :)
moritz_ oh, and the one after that (a33b90) looks pretty simple, but the asymmetry in the reverse case ('d' ... 'a') caused quite some headache for me 11:27
cognominal studies ties and xs for blizkost
moritz_ rakudo: say eval(q[ sub f { 34 }; bless {}], :lang<perl5>).f 11:29
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: ( no output )
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moritz_ rakudo: say eval(q[34], :lang<perl5>); 11:30
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«34␤»
masak moritz_: what'd happen in the third case, when ($lhs cmp $rhs) == 0?
moritz_ rakudo: say ('a' ... 'a').perl 11:31
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«["a"]␤»
masak that looks right to me.
moritz_ bows
masak moritz_++ 11:32
pugs_svn r28462 | moritz++ | [t/spec] test one-element magic series (1...1), masak++ 11:35
masak heh. 11:36
rakudo say (1 ... 1).perl 11:37
rakudo: say (1 ... 1).perl
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«[1]␤»
Matt-W masak: when you do it as pairs, having the type on the left feels very strange
masak Matt-W: aye. good point. 11:38
API change coming up! :)
Matt-W I'm also wondering about how you'd do things like default values, null-ness, etc.
moritz_ foreign keys
masak short answer: 'like Sequel does them'.
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Matt-W :) 11:41
masak long answer: it's entirely possible that this new pairs syntax won't be as powerful as the DSL Sequel uses, but that's OK. it works for now, which is the goal. we can always deprecate this simplistic calling syntax when cooler things are possible. 11:48
jnthn cognominal: Not sure I follow. The idea was that when we handed back a PMC wrapping something in the namespace, we stashed that PMC away so we could return the same one next time. 11:49
cognominal: If you do that per interpreter, I guess you'll have to nmae-mangle stuff, but I'd rather we avoided that...
cognominal I guess I misunderstood the purpose of this cache 11:50
jnthn cognominal: I probably didn't comment my intent for it well enough, my bad. 11:51
cognominal: Did you ever make any progress looking into the segfault on use CGI; CGI.new.header ? 11:52
erm
use CGI:from<perl5> that is
cognominal nope.
I also have a crash when calling blizkost directly instead of perl5.pir
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jnthn Odd 11:53
jauaor :)
masak Matt-W: gist.github.com/195336
jnthn I'll have to try and get Perl 5 sources too when I get home from travels.
Then I may get a little more insight into where / why / how it explodes.
cognominal as I said, I learn xs and perl 5 ties so as to access perl6 types fron perl5 11:54
jnthn cognominal: That'll be great. cognominal++
Fixing the other bug is what is really the blocker for blizkost being useful though.
well 11:55
being useful for using some basic Perl 5 modules. 11:56
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Matt-W masak: looks nice. Some sort of DSL will ultimately be the way to go I think, but obviously we need a bit more compiler support. 11:58
masak right. this is a goodenuf solution.
Matt-W it's enough for the time being
achievable and all that
masak yes, that helps. 11:59
jnthn masak: Does that code you no-pasted run? 12:00
masak jnthn: aye. and it does what it promises.
jnthn masak: Wow, great! 12:01
masak: One thing, this line:
masak :D
jnthn for $fruits.filter(Squerl::LiteralString.new('qty > 35')).llist {
masak yes, sorry about that.
jnthn Quite a lot of code?
masak yes... :/
it's a work in progress...
jnthn masak: Sure, that's just the bit that stood out to be as "gee, I hope that bit progresses" ;-) 12:02
But overall, excellent.
masak eventually you'll be able to write at least `literal('qty') > 35`... but it only Almost Works right now.
actually... 12:03
masak tries it
jnthn Out of interest, you have: Squerl.sqlite('example.db');
Patterner spectests shouldn't fail, right?
jnthn Does that mean the Squerl class will need to know about all posible DB types? Or you plan to have an autoload-ish solution in the end?
Matt-W why is it .llist - what does the extra l stand for?
masak Matt-W: workaround. 12:04
Matt-W masak: workaround begins with a w
masak jnthn: dunno. I haven't found a mechanism for it in Perl 6.
Matt-W: if I define a .list method, bad things happen, OK? :)
jnthn masak: IIRC, there is one.
Matt-W There'd better be
masak jnthn: I'd love to hear more about that.
jnthn masak: but nyi
It may be CANdO
erm, CANDO
or something
Matt-W masak: oh dear. Rakudobug?
masak Matt-W: know one, yes. 12:05
jnthn masak: Yes
Patterner t/spec/S12-methods/calling_syntax.t failed
masak it's an extra fun one with roots all the way down into Parrot calling conventions.
jnthn CANDO, see S10
masak jnthn: thanks.
jnthn Patterner: Which tests? 12:06
jnthn will try and implement that in the not excessively distant future.
It'd be a nice to have.
When the Rakudo Day's resume. :-)
masak when do they resume? :> 12:07
Patterner how do you properly test a single .t file? 12:08
jnthn Well, a week today I'll be on the plane home.
Patterner: perl6 t/spec/S12-methods/calling_syntax.t
Matt-W mm CANDO would be great 12:09
there was something I was looking at where I wanted AUTOLOAD-esque functionality
jnthn
.oO( ENOCANDO )
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Matt-W I ended up mucking about with the symbol table and finding interesting bugs instead 12:09
Patterner hmm... I thought that, but nothing happens
Matt-W of course ultimately I'd probably want to do both...
scottp rakudo: my $year = 2009; say $year;
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«2009␤» 12:10
Patterner "No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'dies_ok'"
scottp rakudo: my @arr = 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009; say @arr[4];
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«2009␤»
masak I found a "fun" parsing bug today. if I define a method postcircumfix:<{ }> in some class, I must delimit all subsequent adjacent blocks with semicolons. even when they are one different lines.
scottp rakudo: my %hash; %hash<Year> = 2009; say %hash<Year>;
jnthn Patterner: heh, odd
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«2009␤»
scottp rakudo: my $input = open('input.txt', :r);
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«operation not permitted in safe mode␤in Main (/home/p6eval//p1/lib/parrot/1.6.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib/Safe.pm:24)␤»
jnthn masak: That's a bit of a wtf
masak jnthn: aye, but currently I've chosen to live with it. I like my postcircumfix:<{ }>. 12:11
jnthn masak: aye, and I guess I don't need to ask if you filed a ticket :-)
masak no, you don't. :)
carlin Patterner: Trying running "make t/spec/S12-methods/calling_syntax.t" from rakudo's directory
Patterner still dies 12:12
jnthn masak: Passed 500? ;-)
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masak jnthn: oh, already last week. 12:13
carlin Ah, it does too (after I svn up)
jnthn Patterner: OK, sounds brokenish then. 12:14
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masak jnthn: gist.github.com/195336 12:16
jnthn: I would use operator overloading there, but another Rakudobug prevents me. 12:17
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Matt-W jnthn: you can't say there isn't anybody pushing the boundaries of Rakudo's current capabilities, can you 12:18
jnthn masak: Curious, which one?
masak jnthn: 'define an op which already exists, use it -> BOOM'
jnthn Matt-W: Oh, it's part of the torment of implementing a compiler for Perl 6. You know full well people are going to find creative ways to push it.
masak: Oh, I thought pm fixed that one. 12:19
Matt-W yes I did too
masak jnthn, Matt-W: #66552
jnthn rakudo: class Foo { }; multi infix:<+>(Foo, Foo) { say "alive" }; Foo.new + Foo.new
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«alive␤»
jnthn rakudo: class Foo { }; multi infix:<< < >>(Foo, Foo) { say "alive" }; Foo.new < Foo.new 12:20
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in find_method()␤in Main (/tmp/Gs4OwAWJ3S:0)␤»
masak BOOM
jnthn oh
masak :(
jnthn did < not get moved to the setting?
That's probably why.
rakudo: say &infix:<< < >>.PARROT
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«MultiSub␤»
jnthn rakudo: say &infix:<< + >>.PARROT 12:21
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«Perl6MultiSub␤»
jnthn Yes
that's why.
masak aha.
well, I'm in blog-post-writing mode right now. might look at it later.
Matt-W aaah 12:22
excellent
jnthn Well, now you know why.
Matt-W rakudo: say &infix:<< > >>.PARROT
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«MultiSub␤»
Matt-W Isn't there some big piece of work relating to Parrot subs vs Perl 6 subs upcoming?
masak lurkers: I wouldn't be very upset if someone did it ahead of me... 12:23
Matt-W I could do it this evening maybe...
But someone would have to review and commit it
jnthn Matt-W: I think the answer for these is "move all to setting"
Matt-W jnthn: fair enough :) 12:24
I have no objections to that, the non-setting way of defining operators is a little arcane
(and of course doesn't work properly)
jnthn Matt-W: It fixes other things too.
Matt-W ooh
jnthn Matt-W: e.g. things not in the setting don't get a proper introspectable signature.
Matt-W ah yes I remember hearing about that 12:25
jnthn well, apart from a few exceptions
Matt-W ones where you build them manually?
jnthn Basically though, my hope is that we'll most almost everything into the setting at some point.
Matt-W: Correct, but it's...well...painful.
Matt-W I should think that we would want to
Define as much of the language in itself as possible
Okay so most of them will probably just be Q:PIR blocks
but who cares? that's fine
jnthn Well, I suspect we'll have some inline PIR, but yes. 12:26
Matt-W it's wrapped up in Perl 6 signature goodness
you've got to call down to the underlying platform at some point or nothing will ever get done
jnthn I plan to make signature binding a lot better and faster soon too.
Matt-W :)
jnthn So the "oh noes but the setting is teh c0stly" arguments should go away.
Matt-W they should never have been there in the first place
if the setting's too expensive, the entire language is impractical 12:27
because you can't then write anything in it
thus, the same problem has to be fixed anyway
thus, it will be fixed
thus, stop arguing and go fix it
or send good vibes to the people deciding if jnthn gets a grant to fix it
jnthn Indeed. 12:28
jnthn wonders wha the status of that is
Matt-W Somewhere, somebody is clicking a button that magically accepts 12:29
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takadonet morning all 12:39
12:39 jferrero left
masak takadonet: \o 12:39
carlin I figured out what was making those tests mentioned by Patterner++ explode, but the fixed tests fail. Are we supposed to skip/todo them or just leave them? 12:42
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moritz_ carlin: if the test changed and now rakudo doesn't pass it anymore, please skip it 12:55
(and open a ticket on RT if you are motivated)
masak what's the TT ticket about Parrot treating methods as subs?
diakopter hugme: add diakopter to proto 12:58
hugme diakopter: You need to register with freenode first
diakopter erm
diakopter thought I was 12:59
13:00 explorer__ left
diakopter hugme: add diakopter to proto 13:02
hugme diakopter: sorry, you don't have permissions to change 'proto'
diakopter o
moritz_?
moritz_ hugme: add diakopter to proto
hugme hugs diakopter. Welcome to proto!
diakopter whee
I guess I wasn't identified
shoulda' been
moritz_ afk 13:03
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pugs_svn r28463 | diakopter++ | [diakopter--] STD Makefile error 13:14
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pugs_svn r28464 | carlin++ | [S12-methods/calling-syntax.t] Changed the calls to dies_ok from q// to {}, q// was causing a no applicable candidates error. Skipped the fixed tests since they fail in Rakudo. Patterner++ for noticing the failure. 13:21
r28465 | diakopter++ | [diakopter--] more Makefile wrongness diakopter-- 13:22
carlin Would someone mind checking that what I've done there looks sane?
masak carlin: looks OK to me. 13:28
as far as I know, Test.pm's dies_ok only accepts a Callable as the first argument. 13:29
Patterner "Makefile:4: *** missing separator." 28465 13:32
carlin masak: Okay, thanks :-) 13:34
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pugs_svn r28466 | diakopter++ | [diakopter--] more diakopter-- 13:40
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pmichaud good morning, #perl6 13:48
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diakopter pmichaud: morn 13:48
pugs_svn r28467 | diakopter++ | [vijs] pass, flunk, unless, mock use 13:49
moritz_ \o/
masak pmichaud: ♫ good morning
jnthn pmichaud: oh hia! 13:50
pmichaud: I saw you started a branch for hacking on PGE/NQP changes. :-)
pmichaud jnthn: yes, and it's going very well
Matt-W \o/
pmichaud I should have protoregexes very soon
jnthn pmichaud: I only saw the initial commit, it looked cool.
pmichaud also it's much cleaner than the original PGE
jnthn pmichaud: IIUC, you switched to producing POST?
Matt-W pmichaud++
pmichaud yes.
jnthn that's the impression I got from the patch. 13:51
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jnthn Were there more patches since? 13:51
pmichaud I've got some local stuff written
actually a fair bit.
13:51 ejs left
jnthn OK, cool. 13:51
pmichaud (which I'm going to rewrite a bit, which is why it's not committed. Also, Parrot is using a vcs that doesn't work well for local commits.) 13:52
jnthn I'm following the diffs with interest.
pmichaud I'm also planning to blog about each stage of development, presuming that I get the time to do that
s/get/make/
jnthn Vaguely hoping that I can help increaes the PGE bus number by doing so. 13:53
pmichaud I'd like there to be more than just code; probably a document describing the underlying theory to the code
jnthn I'd like that too.
pmichaud however, the new regex engine should end up being quite a bit faster than the previous one
jnthn And I'm sure other potential contributors really should.
speed++
pmichaud (not order-of-magnitude faster yet, but faster. order-of-magnitude comes from protoregexes and hopefully ltm)
jnthn Even besides the protoregexes?
pugs_svn r28468 | diakopter++ | [vijs] disable global trace when committing; ok.
pmichaud yes, besides the protoregexes
jnthn Nice. 13:54
pmichaud the new code is *far* cleaner
and it doesn't have a bunch of internal stacks to manage
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pmichaud instead of having lots of various stacks, there's really just one stack. Even better, it's a ResizableIntegerArray 13:54
also, backtracking is much faster than before 13:55
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pmichaud and various cut operations (incl ratcheting) throw away state immediately, instead of waiting for a backtrack to do it 13:55
13:56 rjh left
jnthn More memory friendly then I guess. 13:56
13:56 rjh joined
pmichaud correct. 13:56
diakopter sounds exciting.. maybe I can co-opt its PAST emitter for another target... 13:57
masak I'm also doing something like increasing the PGE bus number at present.
jnthn pmichaud: Anyway, I'm very happy to see progress.
masak heads over to look at pmichaud's branch commit 13:58
jnthn pmichaud: I'll be flying back a week today.
moritz_ the pct-rx branch?
jnthn pmichaud: Will have a couple of $other_job distractions in the first couple of days, and maybe a bit of minor jet-lag. 13:59
After that, will dig right in (I hope) to signature stuff.
Just pinged about the grant.
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pmichaud jnthn: yes, I saw the ping, good idea 13:59
Matt-W reads the backlog about PGE and gets excited 14:00
pmichaud moritz_: yes, pct-rx branch
in the pct-rx branch, I suspect I'll add NQP versions of the code into the comments, at least 14:01
Matt-W oooh
then remember to keep it in sync... 14:02
pmichaud well, it's mostly all method calls, so not really hard to translate :)
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Matt-W :) 14:02
in that case, isn't it fairly easy to read? 14:03
Matt-W should look at the code
pmichaud yes, should be
the hard part is knowing the underlying algorithm of what it's producing
which is why I need to blog about it, and write some "theory of operation" documents for it
Matt-W mmm yes
masak exciting times. 14:04
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pmichaud unlike PGE, I think I could actually describe what's happening in the new library 14:07
and I'm thinking the new library might want a different name/identifier
so far it's just the "PCT regex library"
Matt-W It's quite an awesome idea really - you're effectively going to switch the entire parsing engine which Rakudo runs on for a different one 14:09
jnthn pmichaud: You're just creating another bunch of PAST::Node's?
Matt-W And we all sit back and say sure, that sounds great
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Matt-W So something must be right :) 14:09
masak pmichaud: name it 'Speedos' :)
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Matt-W pmichaud: Call it 'Reggie' 14:09
masak 'Homer'
pmichaud jnthn: just PAST::Regex, actually. 14:10
carlin The Bikeshed Regex Library
jnthn pmichaud: ah, and a pasttype-ish attr?
pmichaud the types of regex nodes are then given by :pasttype
yes
it's analogous to PAST::Op
jnthn oh, you called it pasttype
ok
works for me.
pmichaud but even better is that regexes can be embedded ("inlined") into normal PAST blocks, and vice versa
jnthn oooooh!! 14:11
Now *that* I like.
pmichaud it also means that regexes are normal PAST::Block with :blocktype('method') 14:13
(I might create a :blocktype('regex') )
that that means it completely participates in standard lexical handling
Matt-W convenient 14:14
pmichaud s/that/
jnthn Yes, I figured that was the fallout/intention/both. 14:15
pmichaud well, the primary intention is to put it all into PAST so that we can port it later to another backend if we wish
jnthn It's a cleaner design overall.
I like the direction this is heading. 14:16
pmichaud++
pmichaud me too
jnthn One of those "feels very right" things.
pmichaud yes, I'm coming across that a lot during the design and impl
pugs_svn r28469 | carlin++ | [perl6] Fix Makefile error; was complaining about a missing separator 14:17
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masak let's see if I got this correctly: there will be a replacement for PGE, and it will target POST instead of PIR. is that right? 14:19
pmichaud that's correct. 14:20
jnthn masak: further, it's AST will be part of PAST, rather than a separate scheme.
s/scheme/thingy/
masak jnthn: I don't know enough about how it is now to appreciate that fact, I fear.
pmichaud right now PGE has its own AST representation that is completely independent from PAST 14:21
in fact, that's one of the reasons why PGE doesn't understand lexicals
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masak ah. 14:22
pmichaud oh, hey -- I wonder how the github transition went last night...?
masak it went OK.
some glitches, apparently, but everything works now.
jnthn github trans?
pmichaud github moved off of engineyard and onto rackspace 14:23
jnthn ah
hopefully that'll help them with scaling/reliability issues
masak github.com/blog/500-state-of-the-hu...pace-day-0
diakopter carlin++ diakopter-- diakopter-- still more errors
jnthn masak: just found/read that - thanks 14:26
pmichaud looks like it went okay overall. that's excellent. 14:27
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jnthn omgz newmasakpost! 14:38
carlin A bot that updated about things like that would be handy 14:39
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masak longs for a bot-writing framework in Perl 6 14:39
betterworld about "&&" turning false into an empty list in list context: wouldn't it make more sense if it returned an empty list only if the first operand is false? If you have my @args = $arg_specified && $arg, you probably want to have @args = 0 if $arg_specified is true and $arg is 0
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jnthn (u get teh picture)++ 14:40
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masak :) 14:44
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diakopter vijs: use Test; plan 1; is 17, :16<11>, "rad_int angles" 14:48
p6eval vijs 28463: OUTPUT«1..1␤ok rad_int angles␤»
diakopter vijs: use Test; plan 1; isnt 17, :16<10>, "rad_int angles" 14:49
p6eval vijs 28463: OUTPUT«1..1␤ok rad_int angles␤»
diakopter (yay) 14:50
jnthn yapc-surveys.org/html/ye2009-survey.html is interesting - several mentions of interest in Perl 6 stuff 14:51
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masak I got my talk survey results back today, and during the first reading, I misread the table and wrongly concluded that I'd mostly received 1's, 2's and 3's... I felt a bit deflated until I re-read it and understood how it worked. :) 14:54
jnthn masak: hehe! 14:55
Yeah, I got reasonable ratings. 14:56
Unfortunately, nobody who disliked some aspect of the talk wrote why, so I've little idea what to change. :-/
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pmichaud hmm. nobody recorded that they disliked anything about my talk. I'll have to do better next time. :) 14:57
PerlJam wonders how many of those 74 first-time-YAPC people are beginner, intermediate, and advanced.
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jnthn pmichaud: I got 5/10 for "speakers presentation of subject" and "Overall presentation" by one person in each of them. 15:03
However, the average was around 8 or 9-ish I guess (not actually worked it out). 15:04
pmichaud how many responses overall?
jnthn pmichaud: 7 15:05
pmichaud hmmm
jnthn pmichaud: So not sure how representative a sample it was.
pmichaud anyway, 5 is 'non-committal' as opposed to "disliked"
jnthn There were a lot more than 7 people at the talk.
pmichaud I had 11 responses for mine.
jnthn pmichaud: I guess so - that just hints to me that for somebody who attended, it wasn't what they hoped for, and I get curious to know why. :-) 15:06
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jnthn pmichaud: BTW, I'm giving a Perl 6 / rakudo talk in Seoul tomorrow evening. 15:10
pmichaud excellent 15:11
I hope it goes well
jnthn Me too ;-)
pmichaud how did the yapc::asia talk go?
jnthn Well, from what I've heard.
got some questions, which was good.
pmichaud I saw your name get tweeted a lot, but couldn't read what was being said about you :-|
jnthn pmichaud: Nor can I!
masak pmichaud: Google Translate to the rescue! 15:12
jnthn My most advanced Japanese sentence is "Sorry, I did a fart in the elevator". 15:13
masak I sure would like a Twitter client with a one-button Google Translate action.
jnthn (don't ask why...)
masak why?
pmichaud (not asking why...)
jnthn but hey, it involves two different particles plus past tense verb conjugation...
pmichaud ...particles? 15:14
;-)
jnthn lol
masak pmichaud: Asian-language grammar is so far from Latin, so we just call most word types "particles'. :P
pmichaud masak: got it. 15:15
masak they do all the interesting stuff in a sentence.
PerlJam masak: and people are particle accelerators? 15:16
masak PerlJam: I don't know how the PRC does its physics research, but no, probably not. :)
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jnthn pmichaud: One of the things they are used for is tagging words in a sentence to say if they are the subject/object (though subject is not really quite how things go down in Korean and Japanese, it gets broken into two thingies) 15:17
masak topic and comment? 15:18
jnthn It's like how Slavic languages do case declensions, but instead of modifying the end of the word, you just tag something onto the end instead.
masak jnthn: would you say Japanese and Korean feel related in some way?
jnthn masak: I'm awful at both. 15:19
masak 哈哈
jnthn masak: Certainly though, the verb comes at the end of the sentence in both.
masak aha.
jnthn both use "ka" as a "modifier-ish" thing after the verb for the same kind of thing (question marker), but it seems Korean only used it in some constructions, and less than japanese. 15:20
Curiously, the particle "ga" plays the same role in both too, as far as I can tell.
masak I heard once that verbs-coming-last was advantageous in business negotiations. if, while you were finishing a sentence, the other party frowned, you could always slap on a negation at the end, and everyone would be happy. I don't know how useful that is in practice, though. 15:21
jnthn But it's hard to really know if those are things that signify a relationship, or are conincidental, or... 15:22
masak quite.
jnthn I mean, I'm not about to guess from a tiny bit of experience on a question linguists seem to massively disagree on. :-)
masak "y; a relationship to Korean is widely considered but is problematic" according to Wikipedia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_Japanese 15:23
s/y;//
jnthn Japanese seems to not be keen on syllables ending in consonants. Korean is full of them. 15:24
I'm not sure how significant that is.
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masak bah, phonetic shifts happen on the time scale of centuries. that's nothing. :) 15:26
jnthn I wondered that.
So probably nothing. 15:27
I find Japanese pronunciation hugely easier than Korean though.
masak Korean has punctuation? :P 15:28
jnthn No, just too many vowels. ;-)
(well, not too many really, I just find some of them a tad hard to differentiate right now) 15:29
masak ah, "pronunciation". EMASAKCANTREAD
jnthn the fact that I can see the written script and render it into something sound-ish makes a huge different to me though. 15:30
I don't really have much visual memory.
moritz_ probably you don't because you never had to train it :-)
but it's the same here
jnthn So being able to see something, commit it to memory as sound rather than shapes, and then recognize the same thing later on, works a lot better for me.
moritz_: yeah, that's a good point. 15:31
moritz_ I even remember street maps as graphs, not visually
jnthn moritz_: Heh. Do you find cities with grid layouts massively easier to navigate than irregular ones?
(I certainly do....) 15:32
moritz_ jnthn: yes :-)
masak: in your blog post, where does $DB come from?
is it exported by Squerl? 15:33
jnthn masak: ooh, I think a line that was in the nopaste is missing from the blog post.
I overlooked that, just recognized the block of code as "oh, I saw that"... :-)
masak moritz_: no... it just seems to be missing :/ 15:35
moritz_ bad masak++, no cookies for now :-)
masak moritz_: there, added it back. it must have gotten lost in a flurry of editing. 15:36
thanks for noticing.
moritz_ masak: now you get your cookies :-) 15:37
masak om nom nom.
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diakopter crythias: oy 15:51
crythias oy
ahoy
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diakopter rakudo: ({ say 4 }) 16:08
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«4␤»
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masak planetsix++ # picked up my blog post edit 16:26
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lanny Hi all. Would someone please give me a commit bit for perl6-examples? 16:51
Woodi anyone want to explain how to use proto without building parrot and rakudo ? 16:53
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moritz_ Woodi: by chaning config.proto 16:59
Woodi: you can modify Perl 6 executable: to point to your perl6 binary 17:00
Woodi moritz_: i made both /usr/local/bin and then got message that parrot dir is in /home/... and no rakudo in nerby... 17:02
moritz_ Woodi: are you on the installed-modules branch?
Woodi not understand last question... you ask what branch i cloned ? 17:03
moritz_ yes 17:04
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Woodi only one: master here 17:04
i get git://* from web 17:05
moritz_ don't know if master recognizes that config option
git checkout origin/installed-modules
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pugs_svn r28470 | lwall++ | [calling_syntax.t] s/dies_ok/eval_dies_ok/ since it fails to compile in STD 17:12
Woodi moritz_++ && s/origin/-b origin/ 17:15
pugs_svn r28471 | diakopter++ | [diakopter--] diakopter-- more Makefile wrongness :\ 17:17
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lanny Can anyone offer advice then on how to commit or offer a patch to perl6-examples? 17:18
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PerlJam lanny: what's your github id? 17:22
17:23 crythias left
lanny It's LannyRipple 17:23
moritz_ hugme: add LannyRipple to perl6-examples 17:24
hugme hugs LannyRipple. Welcome to perl6-examples!
lanny Thanks. 17:25
moritz_ hugme: show perl6-examples 17:27
hugme moritz_: the following people have power over 'perl6-examples': TimToady, [particle], masak, moritz_, pmichaud. URL: github.com/perl6/perl6-examples/
moritz_ ENOTENOUGH
PerlJam moritz_: where does hugme get that list from? 17:29
moritz_ PerlJam: a JSON file
PerlJam well add my name to the list then :) 17:30
moritz_ hugme: reload
hugme moritz_: reloaded successfully 17:31
moritz_ hugme: show perl6-examples
hugme moritz_: the following people have power over 'perl6-examples': TimToady, [particle], masak, moritz_, pmichaud. URL: github.com/perl6/perl6-examples/
moritz_ bah, 'git pull' hangs on feather2
hugme: reload 17:32
hugme moritz_: reloaded successfully
moritz_ hugme: show perl6-examples
hugme moritz_: the following people have power over 'perl6-examples': PerlJam, TimToady, [particle], masak, moritz_, pmichaud. URL: github.com/perl6/perl6-examples/
moritz_ better.
hugme: hug PerlJam and welcome his a new meta committer
hugme hugs PerlJam
moritz_ gotta run, bbl
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lanny PerlJam: any suggestions on who to include for perl6-examples pull requests? The default list looks rather large. 17:56
pugs_svn r28472 | diakopter++ | [vijs] most of the basic Num (boxed JS double) supported... incl interop with Int 17:57
diakopter vijs: say 10.45 * 11 # sigh 17:59
p6eval vijs 28471: OUTPUT«114.94999999999999␤»
lanny mathematically correct anyway 18:00
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diakopter vijs: say 10.45 / (1 / 11) # Infinity? 18:02
p6eval vijs 28471: OUTPUT«Infinity␤»
diakopter vijs: say 1 / 11 18:03
p6eval vijs 28471: OUTPUT«0␤»
diakopter oh, I need to implement infix_div as well as Rat 18:04
that should fix those...
sez Ceiling Cat
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diakopter makes smartmatch always return true, for now. :D 18:13
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pmurias Woodi: parrot is written in plain C 18:15
phenny pmurias: 05:32Z <diakopter> tell pmurias I moved most of vijs back the way it was (except the main .pl you split out), b/c it was just too difficult to run it in a different directory with the new test mode .setting
diakopter pmurias: and other lazy reasons 18:17
pmurias: it "runs" the test suite now.. :0
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Woodi pmurias: but parrot need to interpret bytecode 18:23
TimToady I am not Ceiling Cat, just Refrigerator Cat 18:24
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pmichaud lanny: pull requests are likely not to get honored for perl6-examples 18:25
lanny: we'd prefer to just grant commit bits 18:26
lanny aha. So just push straight into the repo? Got it. Thanks.
pmichaud TimToady: Possible fossil at S05:559 ? "temp" isn't currently a scope declarator... 18:27
lanny I guess I'll add a bit more to the README while I'm in there then.
pmichaud lanny: that would be appreciated, yes!
diakopter my $a = "0d0101"; 18:35
isa_ok(+$a, "Num");
Woodi hate proto 18:36
diakopter my $a = 0o100; "$a"; isa_ok($a, Int);
Woodi ... won't install since the file ... already exists 18:37
pugs_svn r28473 | lwall++ | [CORE.setting] add AttributeDeclarand and ContainerDeclarand roles 18:38
PerlJam Woodi: that sounds like sane behavior to me.
Woodi PerlJam: no. install one module then try second with same dependencies and it fails becouse dependencies ARE installed.. 18:40
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sjohnson hi PerlJam 18:57
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Matt-W evening 19:04
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mberends svn up ~/pugs # really makes me :-) nowadays :-) 19:08
Matt-W my git won't pull :( 19:09
19:09 ShaneC left
Matt-W it just sits there :( 19:10
and I want to do some rakudo hacking
19:11 justatheory joined
mberends Matt-W: maybe to do with the github hosting switch. here it said: Warning: Permanently added the RSA host key for IP address '207.97.227.239' to the list of known hosts. 19:11
Matt-W hmm
well I just tried to do a new clone of rakudo and it's also just sitting there
might be me I suppose 19:12
sjohnson hi Matt-W
lanny rakudo: sub foo(Int $x) { 1,$x }; foo(2).say; 19:15
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«12␤»
lanny rakudo: sub foo(Int $x) of Array of Int { 1,$x }; foo(2).say;
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«Use of type object as value␤Return value type check failed; expected Failure, but got List␤in sub foo (/tmp/lA7r8E8Fej:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/lA7r8E8Fej:0)␤»
Matt-W hi sjohnson 19:16
colomon rakudo: sub foo(Int $x) of List of Int { 1,$x }; foo(2).say; 19:17
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«Use of type object as value␤Return value type check failed; expected Failure, but got List␤in sub foo (/tmp/l3bkrLK2a0:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/l3bkrLK2a0:0)␤»
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mberends vijs: use Test;plan(1);ok(2 < 3,"less than"); # almost there, diakopter++ 19:22
p6eval vijs 28473: OUTPUT«read_file 'js/json2.js' - sysopen: No such file or directory at vijs line 82␤»
mberends locally vijs: 1..1 19:23
ok less than
19:24 crythias left 19:29 molaf joined, __ash__ joined
mberends tries to figure out where to track the test number in Test.pm.js 19:31
19:35 NorwayGeek left 19:36 NorwayGeek joined 19:38 molaf left
Matt-W yay it's working 19:39
mberends teh pul?
Matt-W yeah 19:40
mberends teh intertoobs mus b unblokd 19:41
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Matt-W heh 19:43
just compiling parrot now...
thought I might move an operator or tw ointo the setting maybe 19:44
although my enthusiasm has diminished somewhat due to the time it's taken to get ot the point where I can actually do it
mberends c'mon, I'll give you a karma point for actually doing it ;) 19:45
Matt-W I'd prefer an ice cream 19:46
mberends hmm, tricky via wifi
Matt-W yeah 19:48
pugs_svn r28474 | mberends++ | [js/Test.pm.js] patch in an incrementing test_number 19:52
19:57 PZt left
Matt-W rakudo: my @a = <1 2>; my @b; @b.push: @a; @b.push: @a; @b.perl.say; 20:02
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«["1", "2", "1", "2"]␤»
colomon Errr.... did Rakudo just get a lot faster?
I just ran make spectest in 41 minutes. 20:03
I think it was 60 minutes a few days ago, and 88 minutes two weeks ago.
mberends yes, a couple of days ago the --gen-parrot switched to --optimize
Matt-W oh good
I need to run that later 20:04
colomon \o/
Matt-W rakudo: my $a = 1; my $b = 2; ($a xx $b).perl.say 20:05
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«[1, 1]␤»
Matt-W it irritates me that the biggest job when I'm mucking about with setting-defined operators is one that can only use one CPU core 20:07
I've got a whole other core sitting idle!
good thing I'm not doing it on the desktop or I'd have three
mberends feels it too. roll on multi threading! 20:08
Matt-W I really should get some dev stuff set up on my big PC 20:09
colomon Matt-W: Do you understand how to move operators to the setting?
Matt-W but it's a pure windows box at the moment, I only really use it for gaming and recording music
colomon: I've done it before
well
once
colomon Matt-W: Explaining the basics would be a fantastic blog post.....
Matt-W :) 20:10
mberends Matt-W: commenting the setting source code would be a fantastic commit.... 20:12
Matt-W hey hey
my brain's only single-core
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colomon Matt-W: I don't care where you put the explanation, as long as it's somewhere I can read it. :) 20:19
Matt-W am writing blog post while spectest runs
colomon Matt-W++
20:19 crythias joined
sjohnson how's it going colomon 20:21
20:22 perlPHON joined
perlPHON is perl6 available or being distributed yet ? 20:22
Matt-W that depends what you mean by available
perlPHON finished, I guess
Matt-W nothing's ever finished
perlPHON lol
Matt-W but by one measure, we have not yet implemented the entire spec as it currently stands 20:23
although rakudo supports a pretty large chunk of it
perlPHON Id say, if Debian put it on their newest release, it was considered "done"
Matt-W hah no I think that's a way off
perlPHON oh...
Matt-W Debian tend to be a bit cautious about that sort of thing
perlPHON good thing maybe
Matt-W well given their usual audience, yes 20:24
But you can get a Perl 6 implementation and run it and write Perl 6 today if you want
perlPHON rakudo is what ?
Matt-W It's just not got the entire language in it, and it's got some bugs, and it's a bit slow
moritz_ perlPHON: a Perl 6 compiler
Matt-W Rakudo is the Perl 6 implementation which runs on the Parrot VM
perlPHON oh nice...
mberends rakudo.org
Matt-W It's fun 20:25
argh my spectest failed
hah, in the spectest for the operator I just moved
guess I did it wrong
crythias It's fun like awk is fun.
pmichaud I'd expect Rakudo to be in debian unstable next July
mberends :)
mberends just installed Padre in Debian unstable :) 20:26
perlPHON would rakudo be the replacement for whatever pony was supposed to be ?
mberends yes
colomon sjohnson: It's been the sort of day where we took our boy in for his one-year checkup, then watched him for hours while she tried to get help from Dell tech support for her laptop. Also various WTFs for $work. But if Matt-W can explain how to move operators to the setting, the day may yet redeem itself. :) 20:27
Matt-W no, ponie was Perl 5 on Parrot
colomon: it's not hard
mberends "the source code is the documentation" 20:28
Matt-W find one in ops.pir, implement it in Operators.pm, remove it from the PIR, maybe from the junctions table, then see if you broke the spectest
which I just did
20:28 pmurias left
Matt-W rakudo: ([1, 2] xx 2).perl.say 20:28
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«[[1, 2], [1, 2]]␤»
Matt-W I broke that bit :(
mberends wants to create that bit in vijs very soon 20:29
Matt-W tries to fix it 20:30
20:31 PZt joined
sjohnson colomon: i might be able to cheer you up with some corny jokes :) 20:32
20:32 perlPHON left
Matt-W damn 20:33
mberends considers whether to stea^Wfork rakudo/t/harness into pugs/src/perl6/js would work
Matt-W List.push wants to flatten everything 20:34
also, I keep writing 'rakudo:' on my terminal
mberends ls
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Matt-W aaaargh 20:35
evil thing
note: you can move an operator to the setting, but making it *work* is another matter 20:36
moritz_ ;-)
Matt-W rakudo: sub foo(@a) { say "l" }; sub foo($a) { say "s"} ; foo([1, 2]);
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«Redefinition of routine foo␤l␤»
Matt-W woops 20:37
rakudo: multi sub foo(@a) { say "l" }; multi sub foo($a) { say "s"} ; foo([1, 2]);
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«l␤»
Matt-W ah
that's why
hmmm
moritz_ it does binding
Matt-W according to the tests, [1, 2] xx 2 should produce [[1, 2], [1, 2]]
but I can't figure out a way in a Perl 6 signature to distinguish that from a normal list 20:38
I might be taking the wrong approach
moritz_ oops, IMHO [1, 2] xx 2 should produce [1, 2], [1, 2] (no outer [])
Matt-W yes that's what I meant, sorry
particularly, it shouldn't flatten the [1, 2] together with the next one 20:39
now I can write infix:<xx>(@a, $n) and infix:<xx>($a, $n), but [1, 2] goes to the former and gets flattened :( 20:40
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mberends moritz_: do you think the pugs/t/spec suite will suffer from fudge-bloat if we also start adding #?vijs skip ? Fudging doesn't look very scalable. 20:41
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diakopter mberends: hi 20:46
moritz_ mberends: I don't think it will bloat too much 20:47
mberends hi diakopter, I'm all excited about testing vijs
diakopter mberends: you do ./vijs -t -e 'plan 1; ok(1,1)' # to use the test suite
moritz_ mberends: let's just try it and use the fudge markers
diakopter to use Test.pm
moritz_ mberends: it's the best we have - if it turns out that it doesn't scale we can try to think of better solutions 20:48
diakopter and then in p6eval (which I broke *AGAIN* this morning apparently) you do: vijs: use Test; plan 1; ok 1, 1;
mberends thanks moritz_, if it's bad ... what u said
moritz_ Matt-W: I encountered the same problem when I tried to implement infix:<...>
mberends diakopter: it's working nicely locally, I just patched Test.pm.js 20:49
moritz_ Matt-W: I found no way to properly do it from Perl 6 yet
diakopter mberends: good thing you found the -t, then :)
Matt-W moritz_: okay thanks
diakopter mberends: I've got a decent chunk of ~~ implemented... 20:50
Matt-W picks something else instead
moritz_ Matt-W: don't go for infix:<Z> or X, they suffer from the same problem 20:51
Matt-W yes they would
20:51 am0c left
Matt-W hmm 20:51
we'll have to get that clarified
moritz_ Matt-W: in theory it works with slices (sub infix:<xx>(@@a, $count) ) 20:52
diakopter mberends: std currently doesn't send the package name of fully-qualified-names in teh ats, so ist on TimToayd's lits
since that's blocking a goodly chunk of teh spce tesst 20:53
moritz_ vijs: use Test; plan 2; ok(1); ok(1, "reason"); 20:54
p6eval vijs 28474: OUTPUT«read_file 'js/json2.js' - sysopen: No such file or directory at vijs line 82␤»
diakopter moritz_: yeah I broke the Makefile *again*
mberends ah. I'm actually not looking forwarding to fudging spectests, now considering and alternative approach.
*an 20:55
diakopter: that's a very good one. I've been studying interp.js, almost grokked it. I'd like to comment it a bit. What do the abbreviations act, M, T stand for?
diakopter mberends: well, you can place the interpreter in try/catch mode
Matt-W okay
that was a disaster
I'm going to go and sulk now
and try again when I'm awake
moritz_ diakopter: what's the plan for building vijs? relying on a 'make snap'? 20:56
diakopter act[ivation], M[embers] (.ast, really), T[ype/bytecode label]
moritz_: well Refrigerator Cat griped at me for that, so probably another Makefile target that depends on snap should be created 20:57
moritz_ diakopter: does vijs need any building of its own?
mberends diakopter: thanks, I was guessing action, mode, type ;)
diakopter moritz_: nope. 20:58
I really want ./vijs to remain in the same dir as ./std and ./viv tho 20:59
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moritz_ symlinks? 20:59
diakopter (perl6/snap is fine though)
yeah, that's fine
colomon sjohnson: sorry, didn't mean to disappear -- I was trying to cook and IRC at the same time, and my wife grabbed the laptop while my back was turned (as hers will be out of action for a while).
diakopter moritz_: (since nothing needs to be built)
moritz_: actually, I take that back
the test vijsTEST.setting does need to be built 21:00
but I'm just doing that in Perl each time if it doesn't exist
moritz_: oh, I created a vijs.mk
for this purpose
but left it blankish (from the one mberends creatd) 21:01
21:01 frew_ left
mberends 'make -f vijs.mk test' runs but say.t has disappeared 21:01
moritz_ it runs? 21:02
diakopter that's where the vijsTEST.setting should be created
in vijs.mk
moritz_ here it tries to run vivjs
which doesn't exist
mberends sorry, not committed. my bad. 21:03
21:03 frew_ joined
diakopter the little Perl snippet in vijs that creates the vijsTEST.setting (from CORE.setting and Test.pm) should be extractted into its own .pl 21:04
and run during make -f vijs.mk test
pugs_svn r28475 | mberends++ | [vijs.mk] switched from vivjs to vijs, will fail because t/say.t is missing
mberends decides *not* to fork rakudo/t/harness just yet, because of the amount of reworking necessary 21:06
diakopter sprixel (thanks crythias) 21:07
mberends diakopter, moritz_: the spectest target in vijs.mk is all wrong, please ignore
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pugs_svn r28476 | moritz++ | [src/perl6] fix symlinking of js/ in 'make snap' 21:14
colomon contemplates moving prefix:<+> into the setting... 21:16
diakopter moritz_++ moritz_++ moritz_++ moritz_++ 21:17
moritz_++ moritz_++
moritz_ rebuilding now on the server
vijs: say 'hi' 21:19
p6eval vijs 28476: OUTPUT«hi␤»
mberends vijs: use v6;use Test;plan(1);ok(2 < 3,"less than");ok( 4 > 3,"greater") 21:20
p6eval vijs 28476: OUTPUT«1..1␤ok 1 - less than␤ok 2 - greater␤»
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mberends er, plan(2) 21:21
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pugs_svn r28477 | diakopter++ | [vijs] beginnings of ~~ 21:41
moritz_ vijs: say 'a' ~~ 'a' 21:43
p6eval vijs 28476: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz_ vijs: say 'a' ~~ 1
p6eval vijs 28476: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ vijs: say 'a' ~~ 0 21:44
p6eval vijs 28476: OUTPUT«0␤»
moritz_ :/
diakopter rakudo: say ...
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«Can't return outside a routine␤in Main (/tmp/MjdIiXYfRd:0)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say 'a' ~~ 0
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz_ that's better.
vijs: say 0 ~~ 'a'
p6eval vijs 28476: OUTPUT«0␤»
diakopter :) 21:45
haven't done that one yet
(the ones you've tried)
21:50 Lorn left
diakopter std: say ... 21:52
p6eval std 28477: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 95m␤»
pugs_svn r28478 | diakopter++ | [vijs] non-implement ... 21:54
r28479 | diakopter++ | [vijs] yeah
moritz_ diakopter: btw $a ~~ $b maps to $b.ACCEPT($a), maybe that's something you want to implement that way... 21:55
diakopter moritz_: it does the swapping correctly already (just not the rename to .ACCEPT)
so the do_infix__S_TildeTilde method on each object is actually .ACCEPTS() 21:56
moritz_ diakopter: yes, I saw that. Just wanted to nudge you toward the "right" name ;-) 21:57
diakopter thanks :)
.ACCEPT, even; oops 21:58
vijs -> sprixel (s for short) at some point soon
moritz_ no, ACCEPTS
moritz_ wrong
diakopter oh ok; you typed it wrong once, I typed it wrong once, corrected myself subconsciously, then wrongly de-corrected myself. :) 21:59
moritz_ diakopter: I like that name ;-)
time for bed here, TTFN
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lanny std: class F { has @.xs = <1 2>; method postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Int $ix) { @.xs[$ix] }}; my F $f .= new; $f[0].say; 22:14
p6eval std 28477: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 101m␤»
lanny rakudo: class F { has @.xs = <1 2>; method postcircumfix:<[ ]>(Int $ix) { @.xs[$ix] }}; my F $f .= new; $f[0].say;
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«Method 'xs' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Array'␤»
22:16 lanny left
diakopter std: ....say 22:26
p6eval std 28479: OUTPUT«ok 00:04 95m␤»
22:36 ruoso joined 22:44 xinming left 22:46 jauaor joined
TimToady o_O 22:46
jauaor :)
TimToady std ...$x 22:47
jauaor O_o
TimToady std: ...$_
p6eval std 28479: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/1uewa7STMt line 1:␤------> ...⏏$_␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ bracketed infix␤ infix stopper␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤ standard stopper␤ statement modifier loop␤
.. terminator␤ whitespace␤FAILE…
diakopter std: ... .say 22:48
TimToady std: ...++
p6eval std 28479: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 95m␤»
std 28479: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 95m␤»
TimToady listop becomes listop() with no args
which is arguably confusing
diakopter confusely arguing 22:49
I mean, confusely arging
TimToady make up your mind
you at SB's?
diakopter too much makeup already
the one and only 22:50
TimToady except for the next one, and the next one...
diakopter confusually arging. there we go. 22:52
rakudo: say ...
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«Can't return outside a routine␤in Main (/tmp/SUEYlxb1MW:0)␤»
22:52 xinming joined
diakopter vijs: say ... 22:52
p6eval vijs 28479: OUTPUT«␤»
22:56 frew__ joined
colomon TimToady: The other day a couple of us were discussing maybe adding an adverb modifier to <<+>> (etc) to specify how to extend short arrays. 22:59
diakopter vijs: ... say
p6eval vijs 28479: OUTPUT«␤»
diakopter vijs: ... .say
p6eval vijs 28479: OUTPUT«execute(): execute error: noun__S_dotty not yet implemented; srsly!!?!?␤last: arglist␤T,T__noun__S_dotty,BEG,WS,_specific,SYM,END,dotty,M,phase,postDo,eval_args,invoker,context at vijs line 85.␤»
diakopter vijs: say die 23:00
p6eval vijs 28479: OUTPUT«Undef␤»
diakopter vijs: die die
p6eval vijs 28479: ( no output )
TimToady colomon: adverbs may not be the best mechanism for that 23:03
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colomon TimToady: is there another possibility? The current default of just repeating the last element is awkward in a lot of contexts. 23:04
pugs_svn r28480 | lwall++ | [S05] specifically allow :temp and :let forms, pmichaud++ 23:06
TimToady xx covers most of the rest of the situations
23:07 payload joined
colomon TimToady: unless there's some magic I'm not aware of, though, xx makes the code significantly more complicated. 23:07
23:07 am0c joined
colomon you need to directly worry about the length of each array, etc. 23:08
TimToady would cyclic behavior be more expected by mathoids?
23:08 payload left, payload joined
colomon define cyclic in this context? 23:08
TimToady if a dimension is deficient in values, start over 23:09
colomon Ah, no.
I'm not sure there is a good general purpose solution, actually. 23:10
For instance, if the arrays represent the coefficients of two polynomials, and you're adding, you just want to extend the shorter with zeros.
Things like that (adding the digits in a bignum would be another example) you're going to usually want to extend with zeros. 23:12
TimToady in that sort of case, a different nominal type could define + differently, I suppose
colomon Define + differently, or define <<+>> differently? 23:13
TimToady add digits of bignum sounds more like a reduction
colomon TimToady: Sorry, I meant adding two bignums, if you represent them as arrays of digits. 23:14
TimToady you'd need to add them in reverse and do carry in any case :) 23:15
defining + won't help with <<+>> unless you call + directly on the type
and I don't really want people redefining the meta-ops much
diakopter vijs: say 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 + 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
p6eval vijs 28479: OUTPUT«1999999999999999999999999999999999999999998␤»
23:16 rhr left
TimToady but it sounds like a data type that assumes the value of missing elements more than a + modifier to me 23:17
23:17 frew__ left
TimToady particularly since infixes so often have to deal in two different data types 23:17
unless they're the coercing kind 23:18
which is one way of dealing, I suppose :)
it's more like you want [+] |CONFORM($a,$b) 23:19
rather, [>>+<<] |CONFORM($a,$b)
pugs_svn r28481 | diakopter++ | [vijs] add vijs to p6eval's perl6: ...
diakopter evalbot control restart 23:20
23:20 p6eval left, p6eval joined
TimToady for some definition of conformance 23:20
diakopter perl6: say 1234
p6eval elf 28480, pugs, rakudo 0331d6, vijs 28480: OUTPUT«1234␤»
diakopter that'll slow it down some :P 23:21
perl6: say ...
p6eval rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«Can't return outside a routine␤in Main (/tmp/Qb0r9MPJK1:0)␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** Cannot use this control structure outside a 'routine' structure␤ at /tmp/oIcuUaIQfC line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
..vijs 28480: OUTPUT«␤»
..elf 28480: OUTPUT«Parse error in: /tmp/F5yaBp8n9Q␤panic at line 1 column 0 (pos 0): Can't understand next input--giving up␤WHERE: say ...␤WHERE:/\<-- HERE␤ STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤ STD_red/std.rb:76:in `scan_unitstopper'␤ STD_red/std.rb:224:in `comp_unit'␤ STD_red/std.rb:210:in
..`_UNIT'␤…
diakopter perl6: { say ... }
p6eval vijs 28480: OUTPUT«execute(): execute error: terminator__S_Ly not yet implemented; srsly!!?!?␤last: args␤T,T__terminator__S_Ly,_specific,prec,END,dba,assoc,TEXT,BEG,kind,WS,SYM,phase,postDo,eval_args,invoker,context at vijs line 85.␤» 23:22
..rakudo 0331d6: OUTPUT«Can't return outside a routine␤in Main (/tmp/STm3Kzex7n:1)␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** Cannot use this control structure outside a 'routine' structure␤ at /tmp/SNPT8rsYO5 line 1, column 7-11␤»
..elf 28481: OUTPUT«Parse error in: /tmp/kRgx9yVYmS␤panic at line 1 column 2 (pos 2): Missing right brace␤WHERE: { say ... }␤WHERE: /\<-- HERE␤ STD_red/prelude.rb:99:in `panic'␤ STD_red/std.rb:255:in `_block_rest'␤ STD_red/std.rb:242:in `block in block'␤ STD_red/prelude.rb:52:in `call'␤
..STD_red/…
diakopter verbosey
TimToady we could also have some kind of meta-op that sets policy on the following op 23:23
so, for instance, C«+» might set cyclic mode
and then the modifier is right there, rather than the other side of the right arg
colomon TimToady: oooo. 23:24
That's interesting.
TimToady or if there are a common set of modes, they can be defaulted pragmatically
where Cop is just a very small pragma
colomon (Sorry for disappearing, my wife just left me alone with our boy at bed time for the first time.) 23:25
TimToady but generally, people think of adverbs first, and I try to think of the last nowadays
*them
colomon interesting. I'm not completely sold on adverbs, that was just my understanding of "the Perl 6 way". :)
TimToady s/the/a/ :)
P6BP will probably discourage them :) 23:26
colomon Yes, I always try to remember what TimToady stands for. :)
TimToady speaking of which, do you pronounce your 'c' like it was cyrillic? :) 23:27
(in your nick)
23:28 rjh left
sjohnson my guess is "Ko-lo-min" 23:28
colomon Pronounce it with a hard c. (Like it's Irish, I suppose.)
TimToady just wondered, thanks
sjohnson TimToady is pronounced "Timtowtdi"
colomon I've no idea how my TA selected colomon for my nick back in '89, but it's so much more distinctive than sfoster that I've always stuck with it. 23:29
sjohnson （´ー｀　）
colomon sjohnson: A little more like "Kol-o-min", perhaps. 23:33
TimToady if your TA was russian, it might have been more like how it's spelled in cyrillic, with a 's' pronunciation
colomon Ah, interesting. I'm pretty sure my TA was Chinese, but it was a long time ago. 23:34
TimToady as you may know, CCCP is really SSSR
colomon TimToady: I feel very stupid for never making that connection -- it's obvious once you say it! 23:35
sjohnson TimToady: as well as a great anime playing pack on Windows systems
TimToady well, I pretend to be a linguist
sjohnson www.cccp-project.net/
diakopter I preguist to be a lintend 23:36
TimToady sometimes permutational humor works, and sometimes it doesn't
diakopter stubs in Rat and some of it
and sometimes it doesn't
TimToady you can say that again 23:37
.o(that goes without saying)
well, back to package names...
diakopter .iI[THOUGHT] 23:38
colomon I think I will adopt the Russian TA theory if I ever need a (BS) explanation of how "colomon" came to be.
diakopter I thought it was emphasized Cuhl `o` min
colomon diakopter: nope, emphasis on the first syllable. 23:40
diakopter pugs_svn: poke 23:42
TimToady I pronounced it k-ish till I /whois'd you, and then wondered
23:43 rjh joined
pugs_svn r28482 | diakopter++ | [vijs/sprixel] implement Rat, rename p6sub to Sub; implement undefined Type objects and WHAT() on most things 23:43
diakopter er, *stubbed in* Rat 23:44
colomon diakopter: are you using rakudo's setting to do this? 23:45
pugs_svn r28483 | diakopter++ | [vijs] implement number__S_rational, for Rat literals 23:47
diakopter colomon: no..
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diakopter colomon: I'm building up a hybrid model 23:47
so I can migrate "natively" (in JS) implemented things and once it's far enough to require/use files, it'll be able to use settings and eval(). For now the Test setting is kinda fak-ed. 23:48
since both namespaces and lexical scopes are modeled directly in JS objects, such a migration will work ok, until multi stuff is next to implement. Until then, JS's single-inheritance objects will suffice for emulating dispatching on args 23:50
pmichaud I wonder how hard it would be to write a p6 grammar engine for js... 23:54
colomon pmichaud: Inspired by Matt-W, I am trying moving prefix:<+> to the setting. 23:56
so far so good on make spectest.... 23:57
pugs_svn r28484 | diakopter++ | [vijs] bugfixes for Rat
pmichaud colomon: I ran into some problems when I tried it, for some reason -- I hope it works for you though :)
colomon :)
Simple enough to try. Particularly since, on a hunch, I decided to ignore the int special case. 23:58

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