»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by Juerd on 28 August 2009.
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pugs_svn r28509 | lwall++ | [viv] process alternate nibbler from regexen 00:06
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diakopter ++TimToady 00:07
diakopter prepares to lob more bugs over the wall
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TimToady hides in plain sight *poof* 00:22
pugs_svn r28510 | carlin++ | [S02-magicals/config.t] Add a test for $*OSVER. 00:26
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pugs_svn r28511 | carlin++ | [S02-magicals/config.t] Wrong plan number. carlin-- 00:28
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mikehh rakudo (c8181aa) builds on parrot r41567 - make test / make spectest_smolder (up to r28509 -> #28343) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 00:36
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crythias yeah, baby 01:41
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pugs_svn r28512 | colomon++ | [docs/Perl6] postfix:<i> should return a Complex. 02:30
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diakopter I'd be perfectly healthy if it weren't for this doggone hypochondria! 02:38
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quietfanatic I am currently fighting an incorrugible bug whereby an auspiciously declared array becomes unwilling to store anything but Ints. 05:14
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quietfanatic Caught it! 05:18
rakudo: our Int @A1; our @A2; @A2[0] = "Str" 05:19
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«Assignment type check failed; expected Int, but got Str␤in Main (/tmp/mVjCqSxaqo:0)␤»
quietfanatic The first array being declared as Int messes with the second array as well. 05:20
rakudo: my Int $a; my $b; $b = "Str" 05:23
p6eval rakudo c8181a: ( no output )
quietfanatic rakudo: my Int @a; my @b; @b[0] = "Str"
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«Assignment type check failed; expected Int, but got Str␤in Main (/tmp/Nwq34ys7uq:0)␤»
quietfanatic rakudo: my Int %a; my %b; %b<a> = "Str"
p6eval rakudo c8181a: ( no output )
quietfanatic I am submitting this. 05:25
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pugs_svn r28513 | lwall++ | [Cursor] de-dup importation code 06:11
r28513 | [STD etc.] id field now indirect to avoid string duplication
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diakopter phenny: tell mberends I'll be offline-ish for a day or two... 06:41
phenny diakopter: I'll pass that on when mberends is around.
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mberends thanks phenny, from the future ;) 06:50
phenny mberends: 06:41Z <diakopter> tell mberends I'll be offline-ish for a day or two...
mberends diakopter: np, I'm gonna try making a new fudging test harness, in Perl 5 for bootstrapping reasons (that almost came out botstrapping ;) 06:52
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moritz_ rakudo: my $x = 2; $x **= 4; say $x 07:22
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«16␤»
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mikehh rakudo (c8181aa) builds on parrot r41572 - make test / make spectest_smolder (up to r28513 -> #28357) PASS - Ubuntu 9.04 amd64 07:51
moritz_ rakudo: say "34".Num 08:01
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
moritz_ ou.ch
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moritz_ colomon: roots.t down to two failures (Inf and NaN related) 08:08
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am0c OH HAI 08:24
moritz_ moin 08:25
Matt-W o/ 08:36
moritz_ \o 08:42
am0c \o 08:43
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moritz_ whoa, google tells me that my blog has 289 subscribers. It amazes me every time I find evidence that people read blogs, because I always though that most blogs were "write once, read never" or so :-) 08:51
frettled :)
I think it's safest to write to them as if lots of people read them, but expect that there are none. ;) 08:52
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frettled Oh, I found a new use for Camelia, BTW - as (one of several) logos on a cycling team shirt. :D 08:52
moritz_ :-) 08:53
sjohnson hi to Matt-W , moritz_ , and frettled 08:54
are you all still awake? you guys must be in different parts of the world from me :)
Matt-W I'm awake
it's 10am here
frettled nearly 11 here
sjohnson: but yeah, 59°56′58″N 10°45′23″E 08:56
sjohnson are you guys in Europe?
2am here <--- Vancouver Canada timezone 08:57
frettled ah, waaaay south ;)
moritz_ Europe, yes 08:58
sjohnson does anyone here speak a nice sounding European language?
( `ー´) 08:59
moritz_ does German qualify as "nice sounding"? (probably not...)
I learned a bit French in school, too
frettled Foreigners have been known to accuse Norwegians of «singing» our language, but I'm not sure I agree.
moritz_ frettled: in some sense I can agree with that, though I wouldn't call that an accusation 09:00
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huf judging by the reactions of americans, the only thing they hear out of hungarian speech are the 'r'-s 09:02
which probably disqualifies it as a nice sounding language for an anglophone
frettled what about Canadians?
huf never been to canadia 09:03
Matt-W I speak English with a southern accent 09:05
That might be considered nice until you look into the grammar, English is a hideous mishmash really
masak is Swedish, that's quite a nice-sounding language I think
I also like German, but I'm odd like that (it's also the only other language I speak worth anything)
huf nah, english is a really nice sounding language 09:06
Matt-W English is a very versatile language
huf imho it has better flow and sounds nicer than my native language
Matt-W Probably because of its messiness
I'm not familiar with Hungarian
huf you havent heard of "speak the hungarian rapper"? 09:07
anyway, sample of the language: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDXyCUNczg0...playnext=1 09:08
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wayland76 Oi cn say things in good Strine :) 09:55
huf "strine"? 09:56
wayland76 www.abc.net.au/civics/globalcitizen...strine.htm
huf ah.
wayland76 "Strine" is what it sounds like when an Australian says "Australian" with an Australian accent 09:58
huf: nice sample. I didn't watch all of it, but it sounded good :)
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pmurias diakopter: hi 10:16
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frettled wayland76: Bruce! 11:09
colomon moritz_: \o/ you didn't say roots.t had the only two failures left in our branch!!!!! that's awesome! 11:11
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frettled and grandsome! 11:18
or was that grawsome?
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wayland76 frettled: How are ya, Bruce? 11:19
grandsome/grawsome I'm not familiar with, but I grew up with no TV 11:20
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frettled wayland76: just fine, mate! 11:27
and you?
«grandsome»/«grawsome» were suggestions for solving the «awesome»/«grand» problem
jaffa4 hi 11:36
tell me something that should be implemented for Perl 6. 11:37
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masak good day, temporal camels. 11:39
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moritz_ \o/ 11:42
frettled masak: that's only temporary ;)
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colomon rakudo: say (1i)i; 11:43
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«-1+0i␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say roots(Inf, 3) 11:44
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«InfNaNi-InfInfi-Inf-Infi␤»
frettled rakudo: say sqrt(-1);
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
moritz_ that's just weird...
frettled rakudo: say sqrt(0i-1);
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«0+1i␤»
moritz_ I'd rather say we return 3 NaNs for roots(Inf, 3) 11:45
frettled moritz_: yeah, that one was cute
jaffa4 tell me something that should be implemented for Perl 6.
moritz_ jaffa4: feed operators
jaffa4 what is feed operator?
moritz_ search for ==> in the synopsis 11:46
colomon moritz_: I was just looking at the spec for postfix:<i>. I fixed it to return a Complex (rather than Num) last night, but it also says it takes a Num, which is wrong too. 11:47
moritz_: agreed wrt to roots(Inf, 3) 11:48
moritz_ colomon: according to our spec update from yesterday it should probably take a Numeric and return a Complex
colomon Numeric is a role which can include Complex?
moritz_ yes
I highly recommend reading r28502 11:49
we now have Numeric (Complex + Real), Real (Num, Rat, Int, ...) 11:50
colomon Heh. So when do we start changing Rakudo to match? ;) 11:53
moritz_ after the native-complex branch landed
pugs_svn r28514 | colomon++ | [docs/Perl6] postfix:<i> should take a Numeric. 11:54
jaffa4 moritz_, can you tell me another important thing to implement?
moritz_ jaffa4: macros
jaffa4: string handling at various Unicode levels 11:55
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jaffa4 moritz_, nothing is implemented for macros 11:57
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jaffa4 Do you say that nothing is implemented for macros? 11:57
moritz_ well, STD.pm surely contains some hooks
jaffa4 Are you replying me? 11:58
moritz_ yes
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jaffa4 but I cannot use STD.pm 11:58
moritz_ jaffa4: what can you use? 11:59
jaffa4 If I am correct rakudo is based on something else.
moritz_ yes
jaffa4: but that's the first time you mentioned rakudo
jaffa4 so what did you menition std.pm?
moritz_ jaffa4: other implementations use it already (mildew, sprixel)
jaffa4: and you didn't ask about rakudo, specifically
jaffa4 i thought it was obvious. 12:00
moritz_ well, it wasn't, at least not to me
jaffa4 nothing else is in good state.
Or do you know otherwise?
moritz_ anyway, things that need implementing in rakudo: threads, native types, ... the ROADMAP if full of them
jaffa4 What is the state of other implementations? 12:01
moritz_ varying
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jaffa4 Are they worst than rakudo? 12:02
mberends perl6: say "hello " x 3 12:03
moritz_ depends on your point of view
p6eval elf 28514, pugs, rakudo c8181a, sprixel 28513: OUTPUT«hello hello hello ␤»
mberends 4 implementations agree :)
moritz_ and I wouldn't call rakudo's state "bad"
jaffa4 I did not say bad. 12:04
moritz_ well, "worst" the superlative of "bad"
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jaffa4 Are they worsethan rakudo? 12:04
masak jaffa4: you sometimes have a careless way of expressing yourself.
moritz_ jaffa4: since rakudo's state isn't bad, your question is based on a false assumption 12:05
masak jaffa4: I know you don't mean any harm, just that you have an infirm grasp of the language. but be a bit careful.
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jaffa4 the question that are they worse than rakudo does not imply for me that rakudo is bad. 12:06
masak jaffa4: it's very easy to interact with people in here, by default. less easy if you piss them off.
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moritz_ jaffa4: to me it sounds like it anyway 12:06
mberends jaffa4: you began by asking what needs to be implemented. Answer: lots. How would you be able to contribute? 12:07
jaffa4 I can do anything I want.
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mberends jaffa4: that's bold. Can you write in PIR? 12:08
jaffa4 at least the programming task required by rakudo I do not think they are beyond my abillities.
moritz_ wishes he could do everything he wants, too
jaffa4 watch out, I corrected myself!
masak wishes he had more tuits of clones
moritz_ jaffa4: then let me point you to docs/ROADMAP in the Rakudo repository, it's full of things that needs to be done
and it also explains what needs to be done first, if applicable 12:09
jaffa4 mberends,I can write some PIR, yes 12:10
and I wrote a small compiler for PIR>
moritz_ though it's a tad outdated - for example (C) seems to be done already (at least mostly)
masak jaffa4: have you been using Rakudo some? I always maintain that it's a good way to get involved.
mberends jaffa4: If you could add the fork() function to Rakudo, I would be grateful. If you don't write it, pmichaud++ must do it, and we need his time for more important tasks. 12:11
moritz_ mberends++ # proposing small-scale, workable tasks
mberends be aware that Rakudo fork() relies on Parrot fork(), no idea of the status of that 12:14
moritz_ be aware that windows doesn't have a fork() system call
masak Matt-W: Swedish, a nice-sounding language? I wish I could step away from it enough to hear how it actually sounds. :P 12:15
moritz_ I have a completely unrelated question... when pmichaud and others talk about proto regexes, they seem to assume/imply/know/* that proto regexes will imply some significant speed gains
it was never obvious to me. Why? 12:16
masak good question. 12:17
yes, I've been hearing that for over a year now.
let me have a guess at it: because they essentially turn the parsing at that particular place into one big jump table. 12:18
or something.
moritz_ but they don't, at least not in the general case
well, maybe there are some clever optimizations that can exploit the fact that in STD.pm many proto regxes start with a constant rule 12:19
masak 'a constant rule'?
moritz_ one which matches a literal 12:20
sorry, bad wording
moritz_ would like to hire masak for line 182 of the ROADMAP
masak I think something like that might be used to optimize, yes.
I'm on it. :)
today I've been mulling over how best to make info leaflets for Web.pm so that people can get going quickly. 12:21
I want to be inspired by the info things for Chrome and Shoes. they're nice.
moritz_ praises whiteknight++ for wknight8111.blogspot.com/2009/09/ar...model.html 12:22
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Matt-W masak: seemed like it to me. Sort of bubbly. 12:25
masak aye, we do a lot of stuff with phrase melody. 12:26
a way for Swedes to mock each other is to pretend that the other one speaks English that way, too. :) 12:27
Matt-W nothing much wrong with that 12:28
the English is still intelligible
I also quite like Swedish accents :)
masak
.oO( bork, bork, bork )
12:29
frettled encheferize!
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masak whiteknight++ # really good post 12:40
mdxi here's my summation: "A software architect should be like Hari Seldon, except that they tell people what's going on now instead of making holo-recordings to be played after 10,000 years" 12:41
and yes. good post :)
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masak rakudo: role Answer[:$default = 42, $d = $default] { method Str { "The {$d == $default ?? '' !! "modified " }answer is $d" } }; say Answer.new; say Answer[43].new 13:00
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«Potential internal error: bindability check may have done more than just binding.␤The answer is 42␤Potential internal error: bindability check may have done more than just binding.␤The modified answer is 43␤»
masak I still don't grok when that warning is triggered. 13:01
moritz_ masak: some cases of non-trivial dispatch to parameterized roles.
masak well, yes. 13:02
but which ones?
and is there something really potentially dangerous with the above code?
moritz_ well, it's wrong
masak oh?
moritz_ having a positional argument after a named one is wrong
masak I thought they just couldn't be mixed. 13:03
maybe I'm out-of-date.
moritz_ I think the cases are cross-dependencies with default values, and where-blocks
std: role Answer[:$default = 42, $d = $default] { }
p6eval std 28514: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Can't put optional positional parameter after variadic parameters at /tmp/0GV0rUspi2 line 1:␤------> ole Answer[:$default = 42, $d = $default⏏] { }␤ expecting any of:␤ standard stopper␤ terminator␤ whitespace␤FAILED
..00:01 104m␤»
masak ah.
rakudo: sub foo(:$named, $positional) {} 13:04
p6eval rakudo c8181a: ( no output )
masak rakudo: sub foo(:$named, $positional) {}; say 'alive'
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«alive␤»
masak is that one in RT?
moritz_ I think so, but not sure.
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PerlJam hello #perl6 13:05
moritz_ \o/
masak rakudo: sub foo(:$) {}; say 'an anonymous named parameter!?'
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«an anonymous named parameter!?␤»
moritz_ :-)
masak std: sub foo(:$) {}
p6eval std 28514: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 102m␤»
masak well, shoot in yourself foot, I guess.
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masak erm, 'foot in yourself shoot'. 13:05
moritz_ why? foo(|{ '' => 'foo'}) 13:06
masak moritz_: that's a pair, no?
not a named argument.
oh, |
masak tries
moritz_ right
and the name is the empty string :-)
masak hey, wait a minute :)
Matt-W that's not anonymous
masak there's no way to test if it got passed.
Matt-W that's just named with the empty string 13:07
heh even if you can do it it's of no use whatsoever
masak Matt-W: '$' in signatures means a anon scalar.
Matt-W unless... can a routine introspect the parameters it was passed and do a .perl on them?
moritz_ rakudo: sub foo(:$) { say 'foo' }; foo(|{'' => 'bar'})
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«argument doesn't array␤in sub foo (/tmp/wixb9JIzjQ:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/wixb9JIzjQ:0)␤»
masak it can.
Matt-W so you can get at them then
even if they don't have names
moritz_ Matt-W: probably only if it receives a raw signature 13:08
masak rakudo: sub foo(:$) {}; say &foo.signature.perl
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«:(Any $?)␤»
moritz_ that's wrong :-)
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Matt-W BUG 13:08
masak why?
moritz_ it's not a positional
masak oh, right.
masak submits rakudobug
Matt-W and it's not called ?, either
moritz_ and the "argument doesn't array" doesn't look too bright either
masak Matt-W: no, that's a postfix.
Matt-W oh yes sorry 13:09
optional
moritz_ Matt-W: the ? means "optional" here
moritz_ too slow
Matt-W but it should be a named optional
:$?
moritz_ right
rakudo: my %h = '' => 3; sub foo(:$) { say 5; }; foo |%h
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«FixedIntegerArray: index out of bounds!␤in sub foo (/tmp/lbCKj1pGvo:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/lbCKj1pGvo:0)␤» 13:10
moritz_ yet another bug... masak? :-)
masak submits
rakudo: sub foo(:$a) {}; say &foo.signature.perl
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«:(Any :$a?)␤»
masak it gets that one right.
Matt-W rakudo: sub foo(:$, :$) {}; say $foo.signature.perl 13:12
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«Symbol '$foo' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/8OMTadSqa4:2)␤in Main (src/gen_setting.pm:3469)␤»
Matt-W rakudo: sub foo(:$, :$) {}; say &foo.signature.perl
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«:(Any $?, Any $?)␤»
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masak a follow-up on my continuations rant from yesterday: S04:627 specifies C<gather> as being lazy. how will this be carried out on a VM without continuations? 13:20
s/carried out/pulled off/ 13:21
moritz_ masak: continue your rant when TimToady is present :-)
PerlJam masak: through the magic of turing equivalence (in other words, painfully :)
masak how meta. 13:22
colomon moritz_: where does roots live now?
moritz_ colomon: spread all over the place, actually
masak PerlJam: my (obvious) point is that if the pain can be abstracted in that case, why not for continuations in general?
moritz_ colomon: the real implementation in Complex.pm
colomon just remembered I could use ack.
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moritz_ ack++ # one of the most useful development tools 13:23
masak I'll settle for 'delimited' continuations, even though I don't know exactly what they are.
moritz_ colomon: somehow I haven't been able to make sin(Complex) dispatch to Complex.sin
colomon moritz_: somehow missed the version in Complex.pm the first time I looked this morning.
masak ack++ # like grep, but prettier
moritz_ anyway, we have failures in two files left 13:24
colomon what two files? I only got failures in roots.t when I tried spectest this morning.
moritz_ the roots.t should be rather trivial to fix by a couple of 'return NaN if $thing ~~ Inf|NaN'
jaffa4 what is ack?
colomon moritz_: that's why I was asking where roots is. ;) 13:25
PerlJam jaffa4: betterthangrep.com/
mdxi jaffa4: andy lester's better-than-grep grep
moritz_ colomon: trig.t fails for me
colomon really?
moritz_ aye
colomon (trying it again now) 13:26
moritz_ colomon: do you have local modifications to the test file?
colomon moritz_: no, I've been doing all my trig modifications to the new-trig.t files.
Errr... but wait, how the heck does it work on mine? we shouldn't have Complex.sin or Complex.cos now! 13:27
moritz_ why not? I think I uncommented the implementions in Complex.pm
colomon oh, you did. hmmm. 13:28
yeah, trig.t passes for me.
I bet new-trig.t fails, let's see...
new_trig.t, perl 6 is leading me to confuse _ and - with disturbing regularity 13:29
moritz_ how exceedingly strange
colomon what failures are you getting?
moritz_ colomon: it dies after test 126 13:30
when it tries to calculate sin($complex_number)
and redispatches to Any.sin()
and thus tries to coerce the Complex to Num, which obviously doesn't work 13:31
colomon sin(Complex) is actually defined in trig.t right now.
moritz_ it shouldn't be :/ 13:32
colomon Hmmm, new_trig.t does fail with the "You can't just coerce a Complex to Num" error. 13:33
moritz_: clearly it shouldn't be! but the weirdness that forced it to be was why we are on this branch. 13:34
moritz_ yeah, right
I added that error to get a better backtrace (and because it's true)
colomon new_trig.t is failing in Any::asin.
moritz_ and your rakudo is on 65af3ca0376198b88d0ccd3a37fc935407e5a704 without local modifications? 13:35
colomon yup.
I didn't do a Configure --gen-parrot this morning when I pulled, could that make a diff?
moritz_ maybe
but maybe my local rakudo checkout has problems 13:36
colomon trying with new configure now.
moritz_ and maybe my parrot is newer 13:37
I'll try a fresh clone, and a a Configure --gen-parrot
colomon make finished, trying trig.t again now. 13:40
masak rakudo: sub foo($a = $default, :$default = 42) {}; say "alive" 13:43
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«alive␤»
masak std: sub foo($a = $default, :$default = 42) {}
p6eval std 28514: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 104m␤»
masak rakudo: sub foo($a = $default, :$default = 42) { say $a }; foo 13:44
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in isa()␤in sub foo (/tmp/lROEg7zEa4:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/lROEg7zEa4:0)␤»
masak submits rakudobug
today is a day of good harvest :)
moritz_ uhm, why STD.pm complain about $default not being defined? 13:45
masak it doesn't.
moritz_ that's what I wanted to write
why doesn't it complain?
masak STD bug?
moritz_ STD bug.
masak hightlights TimToady 13:46
rakudo: sub foo($a = $default, :$default = 42) { say 'alive' }; foo 13:47
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in isa()␤in sub foo (/tmp/9yQXQGoWdm:1)␤called from Main (/tmp/9yQXQGoWdm:0)␤»
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colomon moritz_: trig.t still works for me after configure and rebuild. 13:49
13:50 NorwayGeek joined 13:51 NorwayGeek left
moritz_ colomon: works here too, now 13:52
colomon \o/
moritz_ "suddenly success"
13:53 NorwayGeek joined
colomon I've got to do some $work now, but if you get the roots patch in place, I'll try to get the full suite of trig functions up and running later today. 13:53
moritz_ I'm slightly suspicious now... updating to the newest parrot to see if it changes anything
colomon k 13:54
I'm also going to noodle around and add new tests in complex.t, I think. 13:57
moritz_ ok 13:58
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diakopter sprixel: say "43".Num # for moritz_ 14:04
p6eval sprixel 28514: OUTPUT«43␤»
colomon rakudo: say "43".Num;
p6eval rakudo c8181a: OUTPUT«Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤»
moritz_ sprixel++
diakopter++