»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: , or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by wolfe.freenode.net on 30 October 2009.
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cognominal I can't find where Parrot_get_ctx_HLL_type is defined :( 00:15
[particle] make tags-vi; vim -t Parrot_get_ctx_HLL_type 00:16
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masak is $.attr a variable or a method call? 00:20
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cognominal [particle], thx. Was using ETAGS and emacs. Don't know what I did wrong. probably bed time. 00:26
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cognominal ha, was searching using wrong table :( 00:27
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carlin (re: kicking lambdabot, from the backlog) once rakudo can handle large text-files without segfaulting mubot could replace it, at the moment it segfaults after ~6 hours 00:35
masak carlin++ # for mubot 00:37
diakopter: ping 00:38
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sjohnson calbot 00:42
carl*
masak for some reason, I prefer the name 'masakbot'. 00:43
I don't know why; maybe because I associate my nick more with IRC.
sjohnson: oh, but maybe you meant carlin :)
frettled carlin ain't a bot 00:50
carlin++ - go you!
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frettled masak: I also like masakbot better, that fits the IRC persona. Besides, carlbot sounds like some kind of badguy from a cheesy movie. :) 00:51
diakopter masak: .WHAT
masak diakopter: my tree spider works now. :) 00:52
gist.github.com/247924
diakopter ok, I'll make it into a p6eval target
:)
masak er.
no, it's just a prototype :)
it has the regex and the input hard-coded... 00:53
diakopter yeah 00:54
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masak diakopter: during the past few hours, I realized that backtracking needs to be trated as a different sort of failure than simply not matching. quantifiers, for example, behave differently when their cargo fails than when they get a 'backtrack' instruction. 00:54
diakopter does it work with multiple layers of backtracking?
masak diakopter: yes, that's the whole point of the example.
diakopter well
masak diakopter: well, vertical layers.
diakopter: it doesn't do horizontal layers. but I can handle that in other ways. 00:55
diakopter: another thing which I realized, and haven't quite accepted yet is that each backtracking node needs to register its savepoint *as far up in the tree as possible*, often in another backtracking-capable node. 00:56
frettled: I've always wanted to be some kind of bad guy from a cheesy movie :) 00:57
frettled masak: like the «Russian hacker» in Goldeneye?
diakopter "I am eenveencible!" 00:58
masak frettled: ergh, I hate that guy!
frettled: he's so full of hubris that the very movie PHYSICS conspire to kill him.
but I do recognize the feeling of flow in front of the computer. :P 00:59
diakopter "I am eenveencible!" 01:00
*BOOM*
frettled masak: With the right kind of lighting (and perhaps some lightning), I'm sure we can portray you as a reaaaaly bad guy.
masak smiles with one side of the mouth
frettled yes! yes!
masak pets his long-haired white cat in his lap 01:01
masak cuts open a cuban cigar with a small pair of scissors manufactured for just that purpose 01:02
diakopter masak: why do you need the Group.new
in that test pattern
masak diakopter: I don't. it's useless.
diakopter: but in my earlier attempts to understand backtracking, a simple Group could throw me off. 01:03
frettled diakopter: It's just how his evil genius works.
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sjohnson sbotson 01:04
masak diakopter: the Group is there for added realism, I guess. PGE doesn't optimize them away -- I checked a few days ago. 01:05
though I think it could.
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diakopter masak: my $regexp = RegexContainer.new( Concat.new( Quant.new( 0, Inf, GREEDY, Quant.new( 1, Inf, FRUGAL, Literal.new('a') ) ), Literal.new('a'), Literal.new('b') ) ); # input: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 01:08
masak diakopter: yup, it doesn't handle two horizontal backtrack handlers. 01:09
but adding that is trivial.
diakopter I showed my regex engine to guy with an ivy league compsci phd, and he gave me that pattern and asked me how long it took to fail
masak instead of allowing one savepoint per node in the tree, allow a stack of them. 01:10
diakopter but each could have a different start index
masak oh wait. these are nested. nevermind.
diakopter: yes, it would take quite some time to fail. 01:11
diakopter how long :)
masak there's only one way to find out. :)
masak finds out
diakopter try it with just aaaa 01:12
masak ok :)
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diakopter equiv is /(?:a+?)*ab/ 01:13
masak diakopter: can I merge the two last literals into one literal 'ab'? 01:14
that's how GGE would do it.
diakopter sure 01:15
masak removes the built-in timeout
it runs, but it hit that.
diakopter time v8 -e '/(?:a+?)*ab/.test("aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa")' # real 0m1.963s
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masak :) 01:16
that is impressive.
what kind of optimizations are involved?
diakopter it's not impressive 01:17
it's quadratic
after 20 chars or so it's noticeable
masak I see.
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masak a tenth of a second seemed little for such a long string. 01:17
diakopter time perl -e 'print "a" x 500 =~ /(?:a+?)*ab/' # real 0m0.012s 01:18
masak whoa. 01:19
diakopter time perl -e 'print (("a" x 50000000) =~ /(?:a+?)*ab/)' # real 0m0.319s 01:20
oh wait
diakopter ID10T 01:21
wait, no
it's fine
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masak diakopter: I am saddened to report that my tree spider doesn't seem to want to stop matching your regex. :/ 01:22
must be a bug of some sort.
diakopter even with input "a"?
masak tries 01:23
yes, it ends up in some tight loop where it keeps backtracking to the same quantifier. 01:24
I'll see if I can understand what's going on.
diakopter++ # shaking out bugs
diakopter is glad to be in the mentor role for once
aka taskmaster 01:25
masak in order to prove that the tree spider is slow, we must first make it terminate. :)
diakopter writing a parser/lexer engine is a learning process
masak undoubtedly.
diakopter hint: 01:26
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diakopter if you continue down the fully-backtracking combinator route, you'll need to "instantiate" (or "clone") each node from the original, and having a "working" tree [logically] distinct from the original pattern tree 01:27
masak diakopter: because of reentrancy? 01:28
diakopter otherwise it'll be very tricky to manage all the savepoints.
but you're on the right track with the savepoints 01:29
masak I like the game analogy. :)
diakopter just instantiate a savepoint for every node before actually visiting it....
masak every node? I think you just lost me... 01:30
diakopter and prototype it in a language with a faster feedback loop :P
(half-kidding)
masak heh. :)
I'm used to Rakudo's feedback loop. 01:31
hah! found the bug!
a failing node which activates a stored savepoint should unregister that savepoint.
colomon_ rakudo: say (1, 2, 3)>>++
masak it's up to the backtracking node to subsequently re-register it.
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Confused at line 2, near ">>++"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
diakopter does it fail on "aaa"?
masak I just tried 'aaaa'. 01:32
let me time it.
diakopter pugs: say (1, 2, 3)>>++
p6eval pugs: <Error><Error><Error>␤
diakopter elf: say (1, 2, 3)>>++
p6eval elf 29254: Useless use of a constant in void context at (eval 122) line 3.␤Can't modify constant item in postincrement (++) at (eval 122) line 3, near ")++"␤Too many arguments for postincrement (++) at (eval 122) line 3, near ")++"␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤
masak diakopter: real 10.353s :)
diakopter: some of that is spent compiling the script.
diakopter O_O
:) mine wasn't much (any) better on small inputs, to start... 01:33
colomon_ std: say (1, 2, 3)>>++
p6eval std 29254: ok 00:01 106m␤
diakopter std: say (1, 2, 3)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>++
colomon_ rakudo: say (1, 2, 3)»++
p6eval std 29254: ok 00:01 104m␤
rakudo 7ef386: Confused at line 2, near "\x{bb}++"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
masak diakopter: I'm not out to be fast. :)
diakopter "you will be. you. will. be." 01:34
masak I've just become entranced with the idea of making a Perl 6 parser in Perl 6. 01:35
colomon_ yes another hole in rakudo's hyperoperators. sigh.
diakopter masak: well, frankly nqp-rx can almost handle a version of what you have there...
masak diakopter: oh, I'm sure. 01:36
diakopter: do you know if nqp-rx uses continuations?
diakopter for PAST::Regex? I think so
colomon_ rakudo: say (1, 2, 3)>>.sin
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 0.8414709848078970.9092974268256820.141120008059867␤
diakopter pmichaud: would know :D
masak my guess is that it does, i.e. it's Parrot-specific.
GGE won't be. :) 01:37
diakopter orly
cognominal CGE?
diakopter what other backend....?
masak it might not ever be useful, but it'll be a nice use case for Perl 6.
diakopter: if it's written in portable Perl 6, any backend.
colomon_: no, GGE.
diakopter yeah it'd be a good benchmark framework
masak exactly.
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diakopter heh 01:38
masak colomon_: sorry, that was for cognominal :/
colomon_ masak: I gathered as much. :)
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diakopter masak: yeah, but I'm making a point about Perl 6 backends 01:41
to myself, perhaps
masak diakopter: what point? 01:42
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carlin gist.github.com/248768 # If anyone has any spare tuits and could figure out why that output of that is garbled (note the "fef"s in the output), feel free :-) 01:48
carlin has to go to work
masak huh. 'fef'. 01:50
diakopter about the lack of backends 01:51
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masak oh, agree. Rakudo is the only backend where it'll even run. however, not due to GGE not being portable, but due to the state of the other backends out there. 01:53
carlin: I can reproduce the 'fef's here. I have no idea what causes them. 01:54
diakopter carlin: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunked_transfer_encoding 01:57
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diakopter chunked chunked chunked 02:02
masak TimToady: I just realized that, by S02, $.foo will interpolate in qq strings and call the method .foo, regardless of whether there's an attribute $!foo or not in the class. perhaps that doesn't matter much, but it feels kinda strange since all other method calls must have '()' after them. :) 02:04
huf what can i pass to perl6 --target= other than pir? 02:05
masak huf: parse, past, post... I think.
masak checks
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masak huf: yup, those are the ones, it seems. 02:09
diakopter WOW use.perl.org/~schwern/journal/39972 02:10
AWESOME. (yes, I think that's worth yelling about) 02:11
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masak it sounds pretty awesome, yes. 02:13
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huf what's the difference between @a=1,2; and $a=1,2; ? aside from @a interpolating in lists and $a not. 02:40
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carlin diakopter: that explains a lot 02:45
what a hassle
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masak huf: well, both $a and @a will contain an Array after the assignment, so I'm tempted to answer 'not much'. 02:46
huf: Perl 6 essentially offers you the "$ can contain anything" approach of PHP, but unlike PHP, there are also @ and % and & for when you would like to be more specific. 02:47
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carlin either there's a i-dont-understand-chunked-you-insensitive-clod header or I'll be busy this weekend :/ 02:48
huf masak: hmm, so converting between one kind and the other is like \@a and $a[] ? 02:49
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huf what's the equivalent for hashes? 02:49
masak huf: that's the kind of question I'd never dare answer without running some code to check. :)
huf ;))
masak huf: the equivalent of what?
huf of that for arrays. converting an interpolating array into a non-interpolating one and vice versa 02:50
masak huf: no, I think 'converting' gives the wrong impression. both $a and @a contain the same value, an Array.
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masak huf: so there's no conversion, just $a = @a, and... the other direction I'm not certain about. 02:50
rakudo: my $a = 1, 2, 3; my @a = $a; say @a.perl 02:51
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p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [[1, 2, 3]]␤ 02:51
masak as I suspected, that gives you an extra layer.
I usually unpack such a layer with .list
huf it's a sharp array
masak rakudo: my $a = 1, 2, 3; my @a = $a.list; say @a.perl
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [1, 2, 3]␤ 02:52
huf ha!
masak guess | works as well.
rakudo: my $a = 1, 2, 3; my @a = |$a; say @a.perl
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: too many positional arguments: 4 passed, 2 expected␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
masak uh.
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masak did I just confuse the assignment builtin? 02:53
JimmyZ good morning, #perl6 03:00
rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; my $a = |@a; say $a.perl
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: too many positional arguments: 4 passed, 2 expected␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤ 03:01
masak JimmyZ: 早啊
JimmyZ rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; my $a = |@a; say $a>>.perl
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: too many positional arguments: 4 passed, 2 expected␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
masak JimmyZ: no, the error happens on the second statement.
JimmyZ I don't know how to use it. 03:06
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JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 1, 2, 3; |$a.say; 03:07
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p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 123␤ 03:07
Wolfman2000 rakudo: my $a = 1, 2, 3; |$a.join(" ").say;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 1 2 3␤
JimmyZ hmm, that's be used to flatten args.
masak rakudo: my @a = 1, 2, 3; my $a = |@a
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: too many positional arguments: 4 passed, 2 expected␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
JimmyZ s/be//
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masak JimmyZ: yes, exactly. but assignment is not a call. 03:08
JimmyZ yes
masak so those are not args.
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 1, 2, 3; my @ = (|$a) ;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Malformed declaration at line 2, near "@ = (|$a) "␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 1, 2, 3; my @b = (|$a) ;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: ( no output )
quantumEd what's (|$a)?
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 1, 2, 3; my @b = (|$a) ; @b.perl.say; 03:09
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [[1, 2, 3]]␤
quantumEd rakudo: say |1,2,3
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: flattened parameters must be a hash or array␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 1, 2, 3; my @b = |$a ; @b.perl.say;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: too many positional arguments: 4 passed, 2 expected␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
quantumEd flatten
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 1, 2, 3; my @b = (|$a) ; @b>>.perl.say;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [1, 2, 3]␤
masak I'll just pre-emptively submit it as a bug, and we'll see what happens.
masak submits 03:10
JimmyZ it'd be a bug.
masak at the very least, it's less than... clear what happens. :)
JimmyZ ng: my $a = 1, 2, 3; my @b = |$a ; @b.perl.say;
p6eval ng 545373: Confused at line 1, near "my @b = |$"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 519 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:336)␤
JimmyZ masak: there's another bug in master, but ng hadn't. 03:11
masak JimmyZ: which one are you thinking of?
JimmyZ rakudo: say ~Str.^methods;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: encode succ WHICH ACCEPTS perl sprintf Scalar Complex Str pred map cis comb log atan min acos max bytes chop sin rindex tanh Int values asinh acosech abs end ceiling p5chomp keys kv floor asech ord capitalize pick round evalfile int split match acosh words p5chop lc join sinh cotan
..acotan…
JimmyZ rakudo: ~Str.^methods.say;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386:
..ComplexStrpredencodesuccperlACCEPTSWHICHsprintfScalarfmtbytespickevalfileacosecjoinsinhasinhcosechtrimasecchracotanhfloorsechasechrandtruncateroundsortsqrtrindexasinsplitcoshexpmatchacoshgrepwordsvaluescancotanatan2lcfirstsrandmappolarciskvsamecaselogmincapitalizemaxtransfirstsinflipdoesI…
JimmyZ ng: ~Str.^methods.say; 03:12
p6eval ng 545373: WHICH pred perl ACCEPTS succ sec map cis comb log atan acos bytes chop sin tanh asinh acosech abs ceiling floor asech ord round split match acosh words p5chop lc join sinh cotan acotan atan2 trim asec reverse isa cotanh ucfirst tan sech cos rand fmt sqrt asin cosh chomp index uc chr
..acota…
JimmyZ ng: say ~Str.^methods;
p6eval ng 545373: WHICH pred perl ACCEPTS succ asinh acosech abs ceiling floor asech ord round split match acosh words p5chop lc join sinh cotan atan2 acotan trim reverse asec cotanh isa ucfirst tan sech cos rand fmt sqrt asin cosh chomp uc index chr acotanh substr flip does atanh exp cosec acosec chars
..ca…
masak heh :)
JimmyZ I don't know which one is a bug, but I guest the second. 03:13
masak actually, I'm with rakudo master on this one.
~Str.^methods.say should mean ~(Str.^methods.say)
so it prints the list without first stringifying it; hence the lack of spaces.
JimmyZ so there are all bugs? 03:14
masak .say returns 1, which is stringified by '~'
JimmyZ: no, rakudo master has it right.
JimmyZ ng: ~(Str.^methods.say);
p6eval ng 545373: succ ACCEPTS WHICH pred perl cotan atan2 lcfirst uc sec map cis log substr sin acosec join sinh cosech acosech abs chomp index ceiling trim asec sech rand ord sqrt asin atanh cosec cosh chars roots reverse isa ucfirst tan cos fmt bytes flip does lc p5chop asinh acotan cotanh chr acotanh
..c…
masak that's also wrong, yes.
JimmyZ oh
masak but I don't submit ng bugs. :)
JimmyZ rakudo: ~(Str.^methods.say);
p6eval rakudo 7ef386:
..WHICHperlACCEPTSsprintfScalarComplexStrpredencodesuccatanordacoschoptanhintatanhcoseccharsrootsucreversekeysisaucfirsttansubstrcosfmtbytespickevalfileacosecjoinsinhasinhcosechtrimasecchracotanhfloorsechasechrandtruncatesortroundrindexsqrtasinsplitcoshmatchexpacoshgrepwordsvaluescancotanat…
JimmyZ all are bugs. 03:15
rakudo: Str.^methods.say.perl.say;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386:
..encodesuccWHICHACCEPTSperlsprintfScalarComplexStrpredmap:dcis:e:flogsechminrandmaxtruncatebytessortsinsqrtasinIntcoshgrepasinhacosechabsenducceilingp5chompsamecasefloorsubstrasechordroundflipdoesintsplitmatchacoshacosecwordscosechcotanatan2srandreverseisapolarucfirstcombtanatancosacosfmtt…
JimmyZ rakudo: ~(Str.^methods.say.perl).say; 03:16
p6eval rakudo 7ef386:
..predencodesuccACCEPTSperlWHICHsprintfScalarComplexStrtrimaseccotanhmap:dcis:e:flogsechminrandmaxtruncatebytessortsinsqrtasinIntcoshgrepasinhacosechabsenducceilingp5chompsamecasefloorsubstrasechordroundflipintdoessplitmatchacoshacosecwordscosechcotanatan2srandreverseisapolarucfirstcombtana…
JimmyZ rakudo: (~(Str.^methods.say.perl)).say;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386:
..sprintfScalarComplexStrpredsuccencodeperlACCEPTSWHICHacotanlcfirstrootsreducetrimaseccotanhmap:dcis:e:flogsechminrandmaxtruncatebytessortsinsqrtasinIntcoshgrepasinhacosechabsenducceilingp5chompsamecasefloorsubstrasechordroundflipintdoessplitmatchacoshacosecwordscosechcotanatan2srandrevers…
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diakopter yes, it's that say () parsing issue 03:21
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carlin blogspot is weird, it doesn't fully respect the Accept-Encoding header and it won't encode as gzip unless I pretend to be firefox (not that gzip would help ...) 03:30
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s1n aww man, that was a rough semester 03:58
what's been happening in the world of perl6 in the last few months?
pmichaud: will you have time this weekend? i really want to set up dallas.p6m.org 03:59
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masak s1n: hello. welcome back. 04:02
s1n: I think the two most exciting things going on right now are the 'ng' branch in rakudo, and the Perl 6 Advent Calendar. 04:03
Wolfman2000 ...so Perl 6 DOES have a testing module that doesn't require Perl 5 04:06
s1n masak: got a link to the advent calendar?
Wolfman2000 s1n: perl6advent.wordpress.com
masak Wolfman2000++ # faster
Wolfman2000: oh, it does. it's had that for years. :)
s1n okay, interesting 04:08
it feels weird, i haven't built rakudo since like september 04:09
masak Camelia got a Christmas hat! cute! 04:10
whoever++
JimmyZ rakudo: (~(Str.^methods.say.perl)).print;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386:
..StrpredencodesuccperlWHICHACCEPTSsprintfScalarComplexreverseisaucfirstkvsamecasetancoscapitalizefmtbytesflipdoesp5choplcasinhacotanreducecotanhchracotanh:d:e:fcombfloorasechatanacosroundchoptanhsplitexpmatchacoshwordscancotanatan2lcfirstucsrandkeyspolarmapcislogsubstrminmaxpicktransevalfi…
s1n i guess it's time to update my git clone :/ 04:14
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masak mberends: morning. :) 04:30
mberends masak: a good $early-morning from me to a good $late-night to you 04:31
masak there's some suggestive symmetry to it all. 04:32
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mberends enjoyed the backlogging 04:32
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masak mberends: did you see my spider? :) 04:32
mberends masak: yes! it looks like baby steps, but full of potential 04:33
masak mberends: I think it's the third or fourth time I rethink the matching engine in GGE.
mberends someone needs to teach you to program in C though. then we'd have something really useful ;) 04:34
to remove the 'glacial'
masak mberends: actually, I've half a mind, once I've finished GGE to a reasonable extent, to port it to something faster.
mberends so do i 04:35
masak C is clearly a candidate.
Ruby is another; someone asked on StackExchange about Perl 6 regexes for Ruby. would be fun to provide it for them.
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mberends yesterday I claimed the p6re namespace with something similar in mind 04:36
masak if you want a co-conspirator, you know where to find me. :) 04:37
mberends if you do it in C it would help not only Ruby but the whole world 04:38
masak o.O
mberends masak: deal, soon
masak mberends: though from the helping-the-world perspective, I fear installed-modules is more urgent. 04:39
mberends it's been interesting to see the interest in installed-modules, without any effort being invested in it. apparently we both have more interesting/important things to do, and nobody else is going near proto. 04:40
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masak mberends: well, it's hard work, and I'd gladly do it. but I think I need more of your presence to attempt it. need someone to discuss pros and cons with. 04:42
mberends either its roadmap is wrong, or it's just a long SMOP
masak it *is* a long SMOP, but inevitably questions turn up along the way. 04:43
I don't feel familiar with the internals anymore, for example.
mberends me neither, but it will be 2010 before tuits become available 04:44
masak ok.
mberends ELOWBUSNUMBER
masak I'll make an assessment really soon about whether it's worth putting effort into bringing installed-modules to its goal in time for the ng merge. 04:45
mberends: well, proto is my most famous mind child of them all. :) it's also the project that has gotten the most outside help, and the highest number of feature requests. 04:47
in short, proto is one big unintended success story in the Perl 6 world.
that's why, I guess, I agreed to extending its life by doing the installed-modules thing. even though that change seemingly makes the work to much for one single developer. 04:48
Wolfman2000 evening. sorry for lots of idling. almost done with my third final. Apparently I missed the memo that this one was changed from something else to something easier. :)
masak might I recommend this for light reading? projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Co...lRecursion 05:06
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mberends no 05:24
masak in that case, I quickly retract my recommendation... :) 05:25
mberends or recommend it for something else :)
masak actually, it was a general recommendation, for anyone who might fancy yet another morsel of musings by Mr Steele. 05:26
he usually has nice things to say, and I know that there are people on this channel who like to read such material. I haven't read it myself yet. 05:27
Wolfman2000 masak: Tuesday night EST, I will basically be free from college. What will you want me to do then? 05:31
masak Wolfman2000: something that makes you happy. :) 05:32
Wolfman2000 masak: I meant in terms of Perl 6
masak me too.
I don't have any specific task for you right now.
but if you pick up a project that I've been involved in and toy with it, I'll be happy to guide you or answer questions or fix bugs or point to documentation or whatever. 05:33
05:33 hercynium joined
Wolfman2000 ...it's been shown to me that Web.pm is usable. Squerl is usable as well, even if I don't know all of the functionality. 05:33
Login functionality is also usable. 05:34
...what is the proper way of handling syntax highlighting using Perl 6 anyway?
I think that's the one thing I'm still confused about?
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masak Wolfman2000: I know of no way to handle syntaxhighlighting of Perl 6 in Perl 6. 05:35
Wolfman2000: therefore, by necessity, that task would have to be shelled out to something that can, for example STD.pm.
Wolfman2000 masak: As it's been...kind of shown, isn't STD.pm a Perl 5 module? 05:36
masak the part that runs is, yes.
TimToady STD.pm is P6, but it's translated to P5 to run it
Wolfman2000 TimToady: how can we make P6 syntax highlight P6 then? 05:37
TimToady implement P6
masak \o/
Wolfman2000 ...alright, I'm missing a step here.
isn't rakudo already doing that?
masak sure, but not enough.
TimToady it's...trying...
rakudo isn't close to running STD.pm properly; ng will have a better chance of it 05:38
Wolfman2000 ...then I'll stick to the Perl 5 written pastebin for Perl 6 then
TimToady for one, requires laziness to implement backtracking
re Mu.defined, maybe the method can be defined in both Mu and in Any 05:39
Wolfman2000 ...basically, nothing is ever simple 05:40
TimToady Mu is pretty simle
*simple 05:41
Nil doesn't have much to it either
masak I've always been a fan of ⊥ in that respect. 05:43
Wolfman2000 .u ⊥ 05:44
phenny U+22A5 UP TACK (⊥)
masak it has every type imaginable, and is thus so encumbered by functionality that it in effect can do nothing at all.
TimToady since it's the opposite of Mu, we'd have to call it Um 05:48
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Wolfman2000 ...umm... 05:48
can't say I like that idea
masak 哈哈
it's not *worse* than Mu. :)
TimToady yes, you can say it, you just can't say it and mean it
masak can't mean I like the idea. 05:49
TimToady you're not very mean, or close to it
nbrown masak: I saw you and mberends talking about proto and I'd like to help land the installed-modules branch if I can
masak: I finally have time to play with p6 again
masak nbrown: excellent! 05:50
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nbrown i have one small issue, that maybe you can help with 05:50
masak let's hear it.
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nbrown i've been doing my dev on windows and the issues with the run command not working exactly correctly stopped me 05:50
can i get a feather account to do some linux dev? 05:51
masak nbrown: sure just contact Juerd_.
nbrown: I think he prefers emails sent to him for feather access. give your desired user name, and your reason for wanting an account, and you should be set. 05:52
mberends hello, US based insomniacs!
masak is a Europa-based insomniac 05:53
s/pa/pe/
nbrown masak: ok, will do. My windows work kinda died a while ago due to run and windows not playing nice and then me running out of time, and now I'm ready to try to make it work again
mberends masak: give the proto pumpkin to nbrown++ before he runs away!
nbrown mberends: hi!
masak the pumpin is lying here on the ground, for anyone to claim. :) 05:54
nbrown mberends: I've been wanting to get back involved, so I won't run away, I just might need to get my act in gear again
masak: what's Juerd_'s email address? 05:55
mberends hi nbrown, you're very welcome here, and we might even help you in turn ;)
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masak nbrown: his name has five letters. put it before and after the '@', and finish off with '.nl' 05:55
mberends cryptic 05:56
nbrown mberends: I've been a lurker for a long time and I already have a proto clone on github: github.com/nbrown/proto, but it's time to stop lurking and start really helping
masak nbrown++
nbrown masak: thanks
masak wow, wishes do come true.
lurkers: could you get me a new computer, too? :)
mberends nbrown: excellent, we've become a bit burned out on proto
masak yes, I think we have. 05:57
need new brains... er, new volunteer efforts.
mberends (fresh minds)++
Wolfman2000 puts away his finals work...basically done for the night, but can easily finish this part in the morning.
nbrown fresh eyes/minds are always good 05:58
mberends whispers to masak that Wolfman might like proto too
masak Wolfman2000: I just had an interesting idea! 05:59
Wolfman2000 mberends: I've tried proto. I'm waiting for it to mature a bit.
masak: all ears
masak Wolfman2000: would you like to help nbrown and me land the installed-modules branch in proto?
it would be a great service to humanity.
Wolfman2000 masak: ask again when my finals are done.
masak sure thing. 06:00
make a continuation...
Wolfman2000 has already made some contributions to Perl 6, but school has to come first.
mberends a continuation... is like an IOU, is it?
Wolfman2000 Now, if there is a way for me to get retroactive grant money or something for my helping Perl 6, that would be great.
nbrown one other thing i keep meaning to ask about, is Perl 6 going to have a FileSpec type module, or is S32 - IO supposed to take care of all of that? 06:02
mberends \o # commute
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TimToady btw, (backloggin) you guys kept writing my $x = 1,2,3; which doesn't work in real P6 06:04
scalar assignment is tighter than ,
masak oh, right.
Wolfman2000 let me guess... 06:05
rakudo: my $x = (1,2,3); my @x = |$x; say @x.perl;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: too many positional arguments: 4 passed, 2 expected␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
Wolfman2000 ...bother if I recall the tests you guys were doing
masak I know about the scalar assignments, but I haven't internalized it yet. 06:07
wonder if there's any broken Perl 6 code out there in the cheese.
TimToady rakudo: my $x = (1,2,3); my @x = @$x; say @x.perl 06:08
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Symbol '@$x' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/CGeN9zBlPG:2)␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
TimToady rakudo: my $x = (1,2,3); my @x = @($x); say @x.perl
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [1, 2, 3]␤
nbrown masak: can you think of any changes we should make to the proto TODO list, or should I just start in on it once I have a non windows box to play on? 06:15
masak nbrown: hold on, I'll dig out the logs from the last time I touched proto. 06:16
nbrown masak: cool, thanks
masak nbrown: use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39864 use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39866 06:18
(the lower parts)
nbrown masak: ok, that should be something I can tackle :) 06:20
masak nbrown: I can also easily define for you what would be considered a winning criterion: if proto can pull down and install the whole bunch of projects listed in projects.list, then installed-modules is definitely ready. :)
nbrown masak: yeah, I figured that one out :)
masak mberends++ # writing a detailed TODO plan 06:21
nbrown: I figured you might. the reason it's important, though, is that Emmentaler depends on exactly that.
nbrown masak: a while ago I made that installed-modules-windows branch and tried to tackle the TODO plan, but windows perl 6 run issues kinda made it impossible
masak: what exactly is Emmentaler?
masak too bad. we could use some Windows users.
Wolfman2000 masak: I secure deleted my Windows 7 VM 06:22
So no go there
masak Emmentaler is an idea of a project to inspect the world of Perl 6 projects, by running nightly tests and controls on them.
nbrown the bit issue was run('dir some/path') did not necessarily return what was expected, so I couldn't make it work for installing the projects
masak :/ 06:23
nbrown masak: cool, I'll be glad to help out with that too when we get proto working
masak also, the clock is kinda ticking. :)
nbrown masak: it was extremely frustrating since I couldn't isolate it in a one liner or even a simple test case 06:24
masak not that we should let that stress ut out, but it's good to keep in mind.
s/ut/us/
nbrown: yes, that's exactly why developing things piecemal is essential on top of Rakudo right now.
nbrown masak: I kinda figured, but I have some time off from work coming up, so I should be able to pitch in a bit more 06:25
masak \o/
nbrown my work allows me to have a 2 week break off at the end of the year and i'll probably end up playing with perl6 a bunch
masak I'm doing the same right now. my current vacation allows me to (1) play with Perl 6, and (2) see what happens if I don't go to sleep until I'm tired. 06:27
nbrown :) how's (2) working out?
masak nbrown: I'm on UTC+1 time, and I'm starting to feel a little groggy. the sun is up by now. 06:28
masak looks out window
wait, no. not quite yet. 06:29
nbrown masak: I'm on UTC-5 and I'm starting to get tired. There noway I'll be up as late as you are 06:30
masak it's been a gradual process.
hopefully I'll land about right when it's time to get back to work. 06:31
nbrown I'll cross my fingers for you
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Wolfman2000 alright, bed time for me 06:32
masak nbrown: more importantly, I figured out how to do regex backtracking without continuations tonight. that problem has been one of the main contributing factors to my insomnia. :)
Wolfman2000: good night!
nbrown masak: I've been lurking/backlogging your questions on that and I have to say it's a little over my head, but a very interesting idea when I think about it 06:33
masak nbrown: I can understand that it's over someone's head -- it was over mine before I started thinking about it. 06:34
nbrown masak: I look forward to the blog post where you explain it so a guy like me can understand ;)
masak nbrown: they're upcoming. there will be seven of them. :) 06:35
nbrown amazing
masak lots of nice pictures and metaphors.
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nbrown masak: now I'm even more excited. Your blog has been a pleasure to read and learn from, but pictures help me with harder concepts 06:36
masak yes. they will be essential here, since it's a lot about trees. 06:37
nbrown metaphors too, but I'm a visual learner in most things
masak also, thanks for your kind words. :)
scottp Good afternoon (well for me in Australia). I have a question about references.
masak scottp: shoot.
scottp If you get a list - my @l = 1,2,3
then if you assign my $t = @l;
vs my $t := @l; 06:38
isn't the first supposed to be a copy, and the second a reference ? (in loose terms)
masak rakudo: my @l = 1,2,3; my $t = @l; $t[1] = 'FOO'; say @l.perl
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [1, "FOO", 3]␤ 06:39
masak apparently not. :)
scottp my @l = 1,2,3;my $t := @l;$t[0]=7;say @l[0];say $t[0];
both seem to be a reference. Is that a bug in my understanding of the spec, or Rakudo implementation?
masak rakudo: my @l = 1,2,3;my $t := @l;$t[0]=7;say @l[0];say $t[0];
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 7␤7␤
scottp rakudo: my @l = 1,2,3;my $t = @l;$t[0]=7;say @l[0];say $t[0]; 06:40
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 7␤7␤
masak scottp: I think you chose a case where both are references.
scottp: but that not every case is such.
scottp OK Ta. I asked because it was picked up in my talk at OSDC - www.vimeo.com/7929562
masak rakudo: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = @a; @b[1] = 'FOO'; say @a.perl 06:41
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [1, 2, 3]␤
nbrown masak: it's bedtime for me so I can be productive tomorrow, but if you have anymore proto thoughts to pass along, please do, and I'll check in tomorrow
masak nbrown: it's been very nice talking to you. looking forward to working on the installed-modules with you.
scottp nbrown: when I gave my talk at OSDC the number of modules proto supported was 42 - it got a good laugh :-)
masak :)
scottp: nice! now I have a video to watch before I go to sleep. 06:42
scottp It will send you to sleep :-) thehe
nbrown masak: it's been a pleasure. good night 06:43
scottp masak: thanks for the example above, I will work on an example of the perl6-examples explaining when it is a reference and not.
masak scottp: sounds good.
nbrown scottp: not too bad for a installer that everyone plans to replace sooner rather than later :)
scottp Think of it as bootstrapping... sure it may be replaced, but if it didin't exist, nor would the next one 06:44
nbrown scottp: agreed, but now i'm really heading to bed :) have a great afternoon 06:46
JimmyZ rakudo: my @a = 1,2,3; my $b = \@a; @b[1] = 'FOO'; say @a.perl
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Symbol '@b' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/fCBoGHa3PU:2)␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
scottp Chow
masak hence the name. 'proto' :)
JimmyZ rakudo: my @a = 1,2,3; my $b = \@a; $b[1] = 'FOO'; say @a.perl
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: [1, "FOO", 3]␤
masak JimmyZ: in other words, the \ is a no-op there.
JimmyZ It's Capture? 06:47
masak I guess so.
Captures are part of the spec that I don't go near yet, because I don't need to understand them to write programs.
and the less I learn about them, the less I have to unlearn when the spec changes. :) 06:48
JimmyZ ;)
I have a Capture patch for parrot, But I don't know wether rakudo uses that or not. 06:49
scottp rakudo: my @l; my $s = "abc"; @l[0] = $s; say @l.perl; 06:50
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: ["abc"]␤
scottp rakudo: my @l; my $s = "abc"; @l[0] := $s; say @l.perl;
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: rtype not set␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤ 06:51
masak ouch.
dragon territory.
scottp that was the example from the spec - making two "containers" point to the one space... I think my head hurts. 06:52
masak keep in mind that Rakudo doesn't implement all of Perl 6 yet. :)
scottp I think that is what I hit. Good really, it has stopped my head hurting :-) I will keep my example fairly simple for now. Just reference to whole objects or not. 06:54
masak scottp: oh, and I agree with you in principle: when I start thinking about the model which encompasses the word 'container' (for something which isn't Arrays and Hashes, but ordinary scalars), my head hurts, too. 06:55
the gls article I linked to earlier seems to make this point: if you don't have tail call optimisation, you'll have to break encapsulation in some cases. 06:59
Tene okay, I'll make a compromise, I'll work on ng until the battery dies in my laptop, then I can sleep. 07:08
Anyone know something that doesn't parse in ng yet?
failing that, I'll look at given/when. 07:09
masak scottp: by my understanding, the reason '$b = \@bits' is equivalent to '$b = @bits', is that the array @bits is already a reference. 07:11
scottp ok ta. That kind of makes sense. I read something similar on the specs when I started to read about containers. 07:12
masak I love the video, by the way. I always enjoy when people explain Perl 6, and you do it well. 07:13
Tene Oh, um... given/when already work as specified in ng. I was wrong. Any other ideas?
masak Tene: gather/take? :) 07:14
Tene masak: already in.
masak wow.
including laziness?
Tene that was my first contribution to ng.
masak: I'm still blocking on pm for that. He's rethinking the iterator API.
scottp Night all... off to a concert. 07:15
Tene As soon as he figures that out, lazy gather/take is pretty easy.
masak scottp: \o
Tene goodnight scottp
masak: i also got exceptions working better than they did in master, although they've got a ways to go. 07:16
masak scottp: no +@bits means numify, not sum. you'd do sum like this: [+] @bits
s/no/no,/
Tene: cool!
Tene my next big item is getting fail() to properly return an unthrown exception... getting that to auto-throw itself if it's not checked is going to require scope exit handlers, which rakudo doesn't have yet, iirc. 07:17
'make spectest' passes. I guess it's not running all of the tests? 07:18
that was way too fast.
and short.
masak :)
I think only the spectests that pass are included, yes. 07:19
but it is faster than master, too.
Tene I just meant, it didn't run enough tests.
how do I run all of the tests to find failing tests? 07:22
masak maybe snatch the t/spectest.data from master? 07:23
Tene oh, maybe...
masak scottp: nit: PIR is more like sugared Parrot assembler than Parrot bytecode. .pbc files are bytecode, though. 07:25
Tene with a little tweak, looks like we can unfudge S02-names/identifier.t 07:26
Three RT references in there... if I commit a fix for the last one can someone close them? 07:27
masak not until ng becomes master :)
Tene oh
laaaaaaaame
masak it's only fair. if I can submit ng tickets, others can't be allowed to fix things in ng and close tickets :) 07:28
s/can/can't/
Tene but ng tickets would be so useful...
masak I don't make these kinds of decisions. I just work here. :) 07:29
JimmyZ hates RT systems.
Tene Um... i got a very creepy result from trying to fix "sub named 'my'"
... nevermind.
masak hugme: hug JimmyZ 07:30
hugme hugs JimmyZ
Tene masak: you could send mail to [email@hidden.address]
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masak ooh. 07:31
Tene then the tickets would be recorded in a magical unicorns ticket system called "my inbox"
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diakopter TimToady: explain more plz your comment about rakudo vis a vis laziness/backtracking? 07:32
Tene masak: more-seriously, I could really use some help directing my work on ng, so if you feel like helping, I'd love some email or messages on IRC about broken things in ng. :) 07:33
I sleep now. Goodnight, all.
masak Tene: good to know. I haven't been too active with ng in the past week, but that might change, if I know I can be useful by, for example, pointing at things and calling out that they're broken. :) 07:34
Tene: 'night
Tene Yes, that would be very helpful to me, at least.
JimmyZ rakudo needs a new bug track system. 07:35
masak JimmyZ: no, I don't think it does.
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masak JimmyZ: I've submitted hundreds of bugs to RT, and I think it rocks, more or less. 07:35
it beats Bugzilla and Trac in my eyes. 07:36
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masak time for me to retire for the night as well. 07:40
moritz_ good morning
masak :)
moritz_ and good night to masak :-)
masak see you later, #perl6.
'night, moritz_ :)
diakopter nite
07:40 masak left
pugs_svn r29255 | moritz++ | [t/spec] unfudge a passing test for rakudo 07:48
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moritz_ hugme: tweet rakudoperl Perl 6 advent calendar day 4: Testing perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/0...4-testing/ 08:02
hugme hugs moritz_; tweet delivered
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moritz_ does anybody get such errors while pulling from rakudo? error: no such remote ref refs/heads/range_to_setting 10:28
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jnthn moritz_: I don't, I just got told I was already up to date. 10:48
frettled jnthn: you usually are ;) 10:49
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flip214 Hello again ... 11:18
mathw hello
flip214 sorry, no pressing questions this time.
mathw that's okay
flip214 Unless I can think of something really quick
mathw my brain doesn't work anyway
flip214 why's that?
too much alcohol? Or not enough of it? 11:19
mathw neither
yesterday I had five job interviews
today I just got a quote on fixing my car
flip214 ah yes, I remember, you told about that
mathw and it's big
flip214 (the interviews)
the car?
;-)
Ok, how are the interviews going? Anything that you'd like? 11:20
mathw Oh yes
Most definitely like
Want this job lots
flip214 Is there a "but"?
mathw Well, it involves moving cities
But I can cope with that
Just waiting to see if they offer it to me 11:21
flip214 Not good advertising that here, is it? Who knows who's reading this channel ...
mathw my current employer? Unlikely 11:22
flip214 No, the next one
mathw So they find out that I'm enthusiastic 11:23
jnthn brrr...'tis cold!
flip214 But now to something completely different ...
jnthn has a talk to walk a couple of times a day now
wtf
s/talk/dog/ 11:24
flip214 s/talk/ = 'dog' I thought?
Or something like that ...
Never mind
Does someone want to take bets whether Perl6 or IBM/SCO is done first? 11:25
I'd prefer both, as soon as possible ... 11:26
mathw depends
how many patches have you written today? :P
moritz_ s/talk/dog/ or s[talk] = 'dog'
depends on wheter the delimiter is a braketing character
flip214 moritz: thanks for reminding
mathw: O 11:27
mathw: Sadly my real life (job, family) are a bit overwhelming
but if there's still need in a few decades, when my children have children and keep themselves busy, just tell me 11:28
maybe I'll find some time then
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flip214 I'd like to help ... but then there are some ideas floating in my head, which I'd like to start, too .. 11:30
Do you know someone who pays my bills and lets me "investigate" CS affairs? I promise to be at least 35 hours a week at the computer.
moritz_ do some reasearch for IBM, make a a real good invention... 11:31
then you'll become "IBM fellow", and are employed for life time 11:32
and can work on whatever you want
flip214 how would I do "research for IBM"? Do something in private and sell it to them?
Not much of a chance, I fear ... but thanks for the tip. 11:33
moritz_ no, apply there for a research job 11:34
they have labs on their own
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jnthn I visited one of those once. Looked like they were doing some quite cool stuff. 11:35
If I wanted a $day-job it's one place I'd probably consider applying. 11:36
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flip214 Well, I couldn't relocate, because of the family ... and AFAIK there're no research jobs in Austria. 11:37
moritz_ jnthn: speaking of which... is your signature binding grant finished already?
flip214 jnthn: lucky that you don't seem to need one
jnthn moritz_: No
moritz_ jnthn: what's left? 11:38
jnthn moritz_: The major bits left are multiple return values, some other cases of nested signatures and the capture syntax.
sub foo(|$capt :(...)) { ... }
moritz_: ng in theory should handle multiple returns out of the box but I also want to make my (signature) := foO() work too. 11:39
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jnthn flip214: Luckily, between consulting gigs that I can do mostly from home and grants, I manage OK. 11:43
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flip214 good for you 11:47
but no wife and children, I expect? 11:48
Well, maybe I should go to consulting, too
But with some basic money needed each month it's not that easy
jnthn flip214: Yeah, girls seem...completely...uninterested in me. So no wife and kids. 11:49
flip214: Which, yes, does make it a LOT easier.
flip214: at least if there's no money it's just me that goes hungry, not others.
flip214: A lot of it, for me, has depended on having plenty of contacts and sources of work. That takes a while to build up though. 11:50
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flip214 Well, maybe I'd know enough people to hold me over water ... but having to race from one to the other, with all having the same year-end-deadlines build a bit of stress, I think 11:51
jnthn flip214: Yes, there are days when I wonder if having a 9-5 wouldn't just be a whole lot easier and less stress. 11:52
I enjoy it most days though. 11:53
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takadonet morning all 13:10
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flip214 morning 13:17
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takadonet morning colomon 13:28
colomon morning! 13:29
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moritz_ blogs.perl.org/users/silent11/2009/...-2009.html <-- could somebody tell this guy or gal that the examples work with rakudo? 13:36
I tried, but it told me I entered the captcha wrongly 13:37
yet don't even see a captcha
takadonet hehe
moritz_ and openid doesn't work either 13:38
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zaslon lolfrettledhazblogged! frettled++ 'Oslo.pm Past and Future': http: 13:39
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zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 4: Testing': perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/0...4-testing/ 13:40
smashz hello
frettled carlin: yay!
or something
carlin :( 13:41
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moritz_ carlin++ 13:42
takadonet moritz_: You can try to post a reply on twitter twitter.com/willwillis 13:45
mathw hmm it looks like it's wanting a captcha and not actually displaying one 13:46
frettled moritz_: I have the same problem, yes
mathw hmm
frettled mathw: yup.
mathw and the signin system is completely broken 13:47
not good
frettled yup
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mathw uses twitter and @ to deliver an absurdly brief bit of information about rakudo 13:48
zaslon lolfrettledhazblogged! frettled++ 'Oslo.pm Past and Future': howcaniexplainthis.blogspot.com/200...uture.html
frettled \o/
carlin++
colomon oh noes, broken comments on blogs.perl.org ? 13:49
"Your comment submission failed for the following reasons: Text entered was wrong. Try again." My comment was wrong?! ;)
mathw I'm assuming it's lookin gat an invisible capture 13:50
captcha
But the signin's broken too
I Tried openid and wordpress.com, both said I entered an invalid openid 13:51
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mathw which was odd 13:51
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carlin frettled: just don't blog again until I've finished my HTTP::Client rewrite, 'kay? :-P 13:52
frettled carlin: heh :D
carlin: you have until Monday, probably ;)
carlin oh noes! 13:53
frettled Unless I find that I want to blog on Sunday evening, muahaha. 13:54
carlin I won't have even got around to procrastinating by Monday
frettled But I may postpone until Tuesday, because that makes it easy to have one weekly entry for the rest of December. 13:55
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PerlJam perl6.ru/qgzyxg0i7zq8gy7803va/ Wow 15:10
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rodi I am revisiting some old Perl 6 code, written for Pugs. Is it canonical to say "use v6" rather than "use v6-alpha" ? 15:37
moritz_ yes, 'v6' is what we use these days
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rodi thanks, @moritz. 15:44
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TimToady slight terminological problem, if we refer to each individual constant pair as an "enum", we can't really refer to the whole enumeration as an "enum", or people will get confused 16:56
not quite sure how to fix that... 16:57
Tene enum is short for enumeration. What's the name for the things that are enumerated?
Enumeratees?
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TimToady I'm inclined to go the other way and say the big thing is "enumeration" and the bits are "enums" 16:58
under the 'small things get small names' metaphor
but people will probably complain about a keyword "enumeration" where they're used to writing "enum" 16:59
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Tene you could go with enum/en 16:59
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TimToady en doesn't do much for me 17:00
enamor Foo <a b c> 17:02
as a pun on enumeration namer
the keyword doesn't just create the EnumMap, but also introduces the names in to the symbol table 17:03
moritz_ so it's 'our' by default?
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moritz_ std: my enum Foo <a b c> 17:03
p6eval std 29255: ok 00:01 106m␤
TimToady constant declarators (of which enum is one) are "our" by default 17:04
at least currently, so that Foo::Bar notation works 17:05
hmm, a constant pair is really a symbol, Tue symbolizes 2
so maybe leave enum as the keyword
and use SymMap and such
Sym for the individual constant pair 17:06
since a symbol isn't actually a symbol without also implying knowledge of the thing it is symbolizing 17:07
on the other hand, symbols often symbolize an abstraction, which aren't necessarily constant :/
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TimToady maybe I'm just tying myself into semiotic knots though 17:08
maybe we should just call each of them a Name 17:09
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TimToady seems a bit too generic though 17:10
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TimToady Constant is a bit long, but that's more or less what the are 17:15
if we abbreviate that to const we'll confuse almost everyone in the world 17:16
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TimToady if we were going semiotic, we'd call them Signs, but "sign" is already overloaded; it might not be a bad overloading though 17:21
if they're constants, maybe we should just grab the typename K :D 17:23
a bit hard to talk about them, unless K is pronounces 'constant' 17:25
also, lots of interference with kelvin in physics
KV maybe... 17:26
.oo(kilovolts)
ruoso feels that things are better since now the discussion is about minor semantic tweaks, instead of major conceptual changes...
TimToady feelings can be deceptive :)
ruoso .oO( of course that might just be a valley in the senoid )
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moritz_ rakudo: say +Any.^methods 17:35
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 118␤
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moritz_ rakudo: class A { }; A.new.sin 17:48
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: ( no output ) 17:49
cognominal TimToady, also, etymologically, enumerations are about C<num>bers 17:51
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TimToady cognominal: yes, I've decided to leave things as they are, but just talk about "enumeration" when I want to clearly talk about the outer type, not one of the inner symbols 17:58
moritz_ I've got another wild idea
the other day I proposed a role to get methods out of Any 17:59
what if we throw them all out, and instead introduce coercive method call syntax?
4.sqrt -> 2 "4".sqrt -> fail "4".+sqrt -> 2
likewise $thing.@join('|') automatically coerces to Positional 18:00
TimToady .+ already means something
moritz_ yes, but we might come up with a different syntax for that
I don't think its currrent meaning is used often enough that it must be kept no matter what 18:01
TimToady that seems messier to me than the Any solution, which works inside the current scheme of things to define what some standard methods are
moritz_ you're probably right 18:02
TimToady and the current scheme allows a type to override
moritz_ that would still be the case
if .~foo desugars to .Stringy.foo
anyway, it's likely to make the language much more noisy 18:03
TimToady I would, however, like to get some kind of coercion type notation that says, "I will accept Any but will coerce to Foo"
moritz_ like mysub($foo as Foo)?
TimToady as for returning too many methods, that's probably just a matter of putting a limiter on the introspector 18:04
moritz_ I'm not worried about the introspection part
TimToady :local(:!any) :)
moritz_ two things worry me
first that it's not always dwimmy
if you define a new class, it has a sin() method, but it can't work 18:05
because there's not sensible numification
so it's essentially useless baggage until you give your class Numeric semantics
TimToady you mean a new numeric class?
you'd presumably register with the Numeric coercion somehow
moritz_ I mean any class.
"3.14".sin should work, right? 18:06
that implies that .sin lives in Any
TimToady sure
ja
moritz_ and that imples that class A { } will have a .sin method, that doesn't work
TimToady if you pass something of class A or derivative, it will work
Any is a base class and gets overridden 18:07
or I don't understand your Q yet
moritz_ perl6 -e 'class A { }; A.new.sin'
Method 'Num' not found for invocant of class 'A'
A has a method sin, but it's useless.
That's my first concern about the current scheme of putting everything in Any 18:08
my second concern is the principle of least surprise
TimToady I don't see how that's a problem
the error message could be better... 18:09
moritz_ if a new perl 6 programmer writes a class, why should he expect his class to have 183 methods already?
TimToady .sin should probably have its coercive type as Numeric(Str) rather than Numeric(Any)
because those methods are part of the language he's working in 18:10
moritz_ he?
TimToady but yes, I see your point 18:11
the builtin types probably want to derive from something under Any that holds the built-in methods 18:12
and user classes default to Any
moritz_ yes, that's basically my proposal (though I thought of roles instead of classes) 18:13
it might also solve another problem
that is accidental method calls on exception objects
sqrt(-1) fail()s, and if Failure has all those methods that Any has now, sqrt(-1).sin() would probably just give 0, instead of bailing out 18:14
however if it doesn't have a .sin method, and no postcircumfix:«[ ]» method etc. the chance that you accidentally call a valid method is very small 18:15
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TimToady Failure needs to trap any unrecognized method and do more with it than just report it couldn't find the method 18:16
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moritz_ right 18:17
but to do so the method must be unrecognized first :-)
TimToady given that it handles *, it doesn't really matter whether it derives from something with excessive methods
unless it relies on the failure to dispatch to hand control back later
moritz_ i don't understand that argument 18:18
TimToady a dispatch to Failure never gets to any of Failure's ancestors
moritz_ clearly the handles * would only be triggered when calling a method that's not in the class already?
oh
I wasn't aware of that
TimToady neither was I till now :)
but the nature of Failure is to complain if you try to use it as any kind of a real value, and that includes single dispatch 18:19
IllvilJa Just a quick thought from a passer by... if sqrt(-1) is attempted, return a complex number -i (however that is represented in Perl6). If the context nows about complex numbers, fine. If it does not, then the context issues a fail?
Ok... sqrt(-1) should of course return +i, not -i... 18:20
moritz_ IllvilJa: we decided to go the other way round: sqrt(-1) always fails, sqrt(-1+0i) return i
IllvilJa: in order not to confuse hacker who haven't heard of Complex numbers yet
IllvilJa That looks like an elegant solution. 18:21
Std: sqrt(-1+0*i)
moritz_ rakudo: say sqrt(-1+0i)
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 0 + 1i␤
moritz_ rakudo: say sqrt(-1)
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: NaN␤
IllvilJa rakudo: say 2*4i 18:22
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 0 + 8i␤
IllvilJa Wow! I like that way of representing complex numbers! ++!! 18:23
diakopter sorry if someone already mentioned this: github.com/fglock/Perlito use.perl.org/~fglock/journal/39971
moritz_ TimToady: so, what's the next step? coming up with a good name for the class or role form which all the builtins derive?
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moritz_ diakopter++ 18:24
TimToady well, I have to think about this wrt the coercive declarations I mentioned
moritz_ they seem to give you constant food for thought :-) 18:25
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diakopter sum1 should add blog.perlito.org/?feed=rss2 to planetsix 18:25
TimToady it might be as simple as allowing "is open" on a class that can accept augmentation without complaining, and a type syntax that can install coercers into such a class
diakopter well, maybe 18:26
TimToady but there's some kind of junctional flavor here too that I can't put my finger on, in the sense of capturing arguments that "don't fit" into the hierarchy and redispatching more specifically 18:27
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TimToady lemme think about that while I shower & 18:30
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colomon ng: say "hello \{"; 19:09
p6eval ng 545373: Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 1␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1664 (src/stage0/Regex-s0.pir:907)␤
colomon rakudo: say "hello \{"
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: hello {␤
diakopter rakudo: "hello { say 3 }{ say 4 }" 19:12
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 3␤4␤
diakopter rakudo: "hello { say 3 }{}"
colomon ! 19:13
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 3␤
diakopter ( very long duration, timeout)
colomon I guess it makes sense, but side effects in string generation is kind of scary.... 19:14
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diakopter colomon: think of it as just an easier way to write "head " ~ expr ~ " tail" 19:19
colomon diakopter: That doesn't bother me. It's when you're writing "head " ~ say $something_else ~ " tail"
I mean, that's legal, but it's also kind of insane. 19:20
diakopter perl -e '"head ".(print "hello world\n")." tail"' 19:21
hello world
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cognominal rakudo: my Int $i = Mu; say $i.WHAT 19:24
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Object()␤
lisppaste3 colomon pasted "Another bus error in ng" at paste.lisp.org/display/91595
diakopter pugs: our $a = 33; say "$a { $a = 44; "" }hihi $a hoho { $a = 55 } "
p6eval pugs: 33 hihi 44 hoho 55 ␤
diakopter rakudo: our $a = 33; say "$a { $a = 44; "" }hihi $a hoho { $a = 55 } "
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 33 hihi 44 hoho 55 ␤
cognominal rakudo: my Int $i ; say $i.WHAT 19:25
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Int()␤
cognominal rakudo: my Int $i ; say $i.WHAT ; $i =1; say $i
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Int()␤1␤
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cognominal rakudo: my Int $i = Mu; say $i.WHAT ; $i =1; say $i 19:26
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Object()␤1␤
cognominal rakudo: my Int $i = Mu; say $i.WHAT ; $i =1; say $i; say $i.WHAT
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p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Object()␤1␤Int()␤ 19:26
cognominal Should probably be "Mu()". Also what is the point to initialize an Int with Mu? 19:27
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TimToady it should fail, since Mu !~~ Int 19:35
we've now defined my Int $i = Nil to be the correct way to explicitly reset to initial state
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cognominal thx 19:37
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pugs_svn r29256 | lwall++ | [S12] rename Enum.name to Enum.key as suggested by david.green++ 19:39
r29256 | Distinguish "enumeration" from "enum" when discussing enumish types
r29256 | clarify that the anon enum still evaluates the list at compile time
colomon has Num's trig functions working in ng (he thinks), but doesn't know when he will have time to ng-ize the trig tests... 19:41
.oO( At the moment, working in ng is 1/4 Cool!, 1/2 NYI, and 1/4 Bus errors.)
 19:42
TimToady be thankful the Bus errors are implemented, at least! 19:44
though 1/4 is a rather low bus number... 19:46
pmichaud ...is there a specific time when the perl6advent postings are supposed to be posted? 19:48
(e.g., like 0000 UTC or the like?)
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TimToady they show up somewhen about there; moritz doesn't usualy tweet them until he gets up, though... 19:51
*usually
pmichaud okay. I may be a few hours delayed on today's post.
TimToady though it's already tomorrow in Australia
pmichaud well, I'm not too worried about that far into the future. :) 19:52
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cognominal rakudo: my $x; (*, *, $x) = (1, 2, 3); say $x 20:30
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 3␤
cognominal rakudo: my (*, *, $x) = (1, 2, 3); say $x
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: Malformed declaration at line 2, near "(*, *, $x)"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
cognominal not sure if the later form should be supported 20:31
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masak good evening, #perl6. 20:35
colomon o/
cognominal rakudo: say *(42) == 42
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: get_number() not implemented in class 'Sub'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
masak o.O
masak submits rakudobug 20:36
cognominal I am reading S02 and testing along
masak cool! 20:37
cognominal you may be interested in my Int $i = Mu; say $i.WHAT ; $i =1; say $i; say $i.WHAT that should blow up according to TimToady. See the backlog 20:38
mberends good morning, masak ;)
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masak mberends: what you say, morning was hours ago. :) at least four or five. :P 20:39
it looks like the enum spec is coming together. this pleases masakbot. TimToady++ 20:40
cognominal rakudo: my @a = 1..10; say @a[*-1] 20:41
p6eval rakudo 7ef386: 10␤
masak ooh, pmichaud said 'halting problem' in the parrot-dev thread about GC. that's like the comp.sci. version of Godwin's Law. :) 20:43
colomon Is that still supposed to work?
masak colomon: sure!
why would it not? 20:44
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colomon I wasn't aware that Range did positional. 20:44
and I'm not clear on how it works otherwise.
oh, wait, I see.
my $a = 1..10 would be different, 20:45
perhaps?
masak yes. 20:46
colomon what happens when you try [*-1] on a lazy list?
masak it must unroll, I guess.
unless it knows how to inspect its last range without unrolling it. 20:47
colomon just another reason to avoid [*-1] if you possibly can, I guess. :)
masak I use [*-1] quite frequently.
semantically, it's a peeky pop.
mberends <rant topic="enum">hopefully our spec will avoid that extremely annoying meme that infects the Microsoft developers' branes, where they think "to enumerate" means "to produce a list". There are so many method names in their classes prefixed with "enum" and yet have nothing at all to do with associating numbers </rant> 20:48
colomon I guess I do use the C++ equivalent of [*-1] pretty heavily. Just haven't run into much of a use for it in Perl 6 yet.
masak mberends: Java does that a little too, I think.
mberends it seems very infectious, beware! 20:49
masak colomon: my tree spider uses it twice in 200 lines. just a data point. gist.github.com/247924 20:50
colomon masak: come to think of it, my Perl 6 has hardly used postfix:<[ ]> at all. I like being able to either deal with the entire list at once, or deal with each member regardless of its position. 20:52
masak colomon: (postcircumfix.)
colomon masak: danke 20:53
masak colomon: I guess the use of [*-1] comes quite naturall when you treat an array as a stack.
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masak ok, today's episode of "I'm curious about Japanese": twitter.com/zentooo/status/6330210263 -- is zentoo asking whether one will be able to write in Perl 6? 20:59
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masak two things about Fortress, by the way: (1) they seem to have plenty experience with Unicode operators; might be worth borrowing insights from that. (2) formatting source code to TeX is way cool. anyone want to write a Perl 6 TeX formatter? 21:04
Wolfman2000 PerlJam: I just signed up on nearlyfreespeech.net. So far, the account is free. 21:05
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TimToady using "enumerate" to mean "list" is the Latinate disease, the same one that infected COBOL when it used "perform" instead of "do" 21:14
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masak maybe that's why COBOL has had such a long shelf-life, because it reads like the vocab of pointy-haired bosses? :) 21:16
mdxi now i'm imagining cobol programs transliterated into latin, and i'm getting something that sounds a lot like Warhammer 40K flavor text :) 21:19
TimToady masak: more like "It seems we now have the possibility to write in Perl 6"
masak \o/
it's the Perl 6 Advent message, seeping into the outside world! 21:20
TimToady obviously, COBOL was performant
masak not doant.
TimToady whimpers
21:23 SmokeMachine left
masak TimToady: when I look at the method signatures in the S32 podfiles, there's one thing I don't understand: the methods are all declared as if they were placed outside their respective classes (as opposed to how Rakudo's setting does it, for example). isn't declaring methods outside of their class... a form of MONKEY_PATCHING? should it be allowed by default? should S32 do it all over the place? 21:24
TimToady I think it's just a notational convenience to avoid writing class blocks around them all 21:26
masak so it's not supposed to work in practice like that?
I'm asking because there's an RT bug that complains Rakudo allows this kind of declaration. :) 21:27
but there's no real consensus as to whether it should, as far as I know.
ah, here: rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=65308 21:28
moritz_ re 21:29
TimToady a method declaration should fail outside of a class regardless of any qualifications to its invocant 21:33
masak that's what I wanted to hear. thank you. :) 21:34
does the answer change if MONKEY_PATCHING is on?
er, MONKEY_TYPING.
moritz_ MONKEY_PATCH_TYPING
:-) 21:35
TimToady no, it fails because there's no metaclass to register with that accepts methods
moritz_ that's a good explanation
masak why not the metaclass of the invocant's type?
TimToady because that would be silly :) 21:36
masak fair enough. :)
Tene That's a great point. We're never silly around here.
Wolfman2000 Tene: yeah right. :P
Tene I know I'm certainly not.
masak Wolfman2000: it occurs to me that Tene is using what's commonly known as 'being ironic'. :) 21:37
Tene aka "being silly"
masak it's the silly version of Epimenides' Paradox. 21:38
TimToady would it be ironic to ride on a Ferrous Wheel?
masak groans 21:39
21:39 colomon left
masak everybody: steel yourselves for the onslaught of metal jokes! 21:39
TimToady heavy, dude!
21:39 colomon joined
masak those jokes could easily turn plumb, I fear. 21:40
mberends being scilly again? 21:41
TimToady I'd make a joke about "those coppers got lead poisoning" but that wouldn't be funny right now... :/ 21:42
mberends we don't have the mettle... 21:43
TimToady nor the medal
masak I can only think of scrap metal jokes right now.
mberends they're going down like a lead balloon ( or zeppelin ) 21:45
TimToady curses, foiled again! 21:46
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mberends TinToady: foiled 21:46
TimToady I beam! 21:47
mberends reflects on that 21:49
masak too many metal jokes and soon we'll exhibit fatigue...
TimToady too late!
mberends cracks up
masak I'd prefer precious metal jokes to these base metal jokes, of course.
mathw Nothing yet has approached the gold standard 21:50
masak getting symptoms of metallurgy here...
mathw: right, these puns aren't worth a nickel. 21:51
mathw: by the way, welcome back from your interviews. so now we all sit tight for the results to come back, is that it?
mathw pretty much, yes
masak bites nails 21:52
mathw they might want another phone interview if they're having trouble deciding
TimToady nails!?!
masak 哈哈
moritz_ somtimes you guys are hard to bear :-)
TimToady only sometimes? 21:53
masak PREVED! \o/
moritz_ only at puntime
masak every time is puntime. :)
Tene my only reaction is to feel a-salt-ed. 21:59
colomon resists the urge to make a new song "Every time is puntime" to the tune of "Every sperm is sacred."
masak colomon: funny, I resisted the urge to make an SVG clock with all the numbers replaced by the word 'pun'. 22:00
Wolfman2000 colomon: I'm tempted to say do it
Tene reminded of something inappropriate for this channel. 22:01
pmichaud ...are we previewing advent entries on the channel, or are they meant to be a surprise for everyone? 22:03
colomon we've been previewing, but surprises are nice, too.
Of course, if you save your draft... ;) 22:04
pmichaud I'd appreciate feedback then:
perl6advent.wordpress.com/?p=85&preview=true
Wolfman2000 pmichaud: can't view it 22:05
masak pmichaud: can you make the title begin with 'Day 5: '?
colomon There's a min operator?
masak colomon: yup. and a min function, and a min method. :)
Wolfman2000 masak: I can see that pmichaud has a post prepared for metaoperators, but I don't know how to actually VIEW it 22:06
masak Wolfman2000: I logged in an viewed it in the list of posts.
the URL pmichaud sent didn't work.
Wolfman2000 masak: I wish I understood that
Wolfman2000 is an admin and yet can't figure out how to admin
pmichaud Added "Day 5" to the title. 22:07
masak pmichaud: I'd write "inplace" as "in-place".
Wolfman2000 masak: ...how did you view the list of posts again? pmichaud's post is still in draft 22:08
masak Wolfman2000: yes, it is. there's a "Posts" button on the left side of the dashboard.
Wolfman2000 masak: In posts, I can either choose Edit or Add New
presently in Edit
masak pmichaud: other than that, neat-o post! pmichaud++
pmichaud Wolfman2000: click "Dashboard", then click "Posts" 22:09
Wolfman2000 pmichaud: I've done that. Then, I click on Drafts to see the three draft...titles
22:10 KyleHa left
Wolfman2000 At this point, I can't seem to view your post pmichaud 22:10
pmichaud Wolfman2000: hmm. I just clicked on "Posts" and was there.
Wolfman2000 pmichaud: when I click on Posts, I see my post by default. I can edit and view my post. 22:11
When I click on Drafts, I see three draft days. I can not view the contents of those drafts. At least, I don't see an easy way of doing so.
pmichaud Wolfman2000: okay, I'm guessing you don't have privileges to see others' posts or something then. (I'm a WordPress newbie, so I don't really know.)
Wolfman2000 pmichaud: I thought I did. I am able to access the wp-admin page. 22:12
pmichaud you're not able to click on any of the draft titles?
Wolfman2000 I am not
Tene obtw, I'm going to need access to that site sometime before my post is scheduled. 22:13
masak hm, it's interesting to read about how language change politics work on the other side of the fence: jessenoller.com/2009/12/04/pythons-...bout-this/
the fact that someone even feels the need to say "Python’s not dead people." feels comforting in some way. so it's not just the Perl community which goes around doing that. 22:15
pmichaud okay, scheduling my post for 00:01
Wolfman2000 ...who owns the perl 6 advent blog again? 22:16
moritz_ colomon does
moritz_ -> bed
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pmichaud hope I didn't step on colomon++'s day 7 post too much. Didn't realize he was doing hyperoperators 22:17
Tene anyone currently awake an admin on p6advent and can add me?
pmichaud how would I know if I'm an admin? ;-)
Tene I... don't know.
Look around for an "Add Tene to the blog" button?
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pmichaud aha, looks like I'm an admin 22:18
do you have an account? 22:19
Wolfman2000 pmichaud: If you're an admin, do you think you can give me the ability to read your draft please?
Wolfman2000 is only an author apparently
pmichaud Wolfman2000: you appear to b..... right
I'll do forgiveness > permission and make you an author. colomon can fix it if I'm doing the wrong thing :) 22:20
Wolfman2000: you're now and administrator
*an
Wolfman2000 pmichaud++: thanks. Now to preview your post.
Tene I don't know if I have an account... do I need one?
pmichaud Tene: yes 22:21
Tene: click the "Log in" link in perl6advent.wordpress.com
Wolfman2000 Warning: pmichaud is currently editing this post. <-- I appreciate the warning. I'm not planning on editing...just letting you know of what I see.
pmichaud I'm no longer editing 22:22
(just closed window)
Tene: then "Get a free WordPress account"
Tene Ah, that's why I'm confused. Apparently my gf has a wp account, and left herself logged in on my laptop.
Wolfman2000 ...the only thing I'm concerned about...no talks of opening up the Metaoperators box 22:23
the first few days talked of opening up a gift if I recall correctly 22:24
pmichaud Day 4 didn't.
days 2 and 3 did
Wolfman2000 I was day 3 22:25
pmichaud I can add a note about the box.
Wolfman2000 it's your choice
Tene Apparently I do have an account... it's working on sending me email to re-set a password. I'll bug you again once I get this figured out.
IllvilJa (On topic regarding advent calendars, but off topic regarding this IRC channel: www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/12/h...ent_1.html .) 22:26
Wolfman2000 IllvilJa: we're not that strict on being on topic
pmichaud Wolfman2000: how about now?
IllvilJa Wolfman2000: for which I am thankful ;-).
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Wolfman2000 pmichaud: no issues here 22:28
pmichaud Wolfman2000: better, though?
Wolfman2000 fine by me
mberends pmichaud: could you grant me preview access as well? mberends @ wordpress? 22:30
Tene go email! 22:31
gooooooooooooooooo email!
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pmichaud wonders if "editor" access is sufficient to preview posts 22:37
Wolfman2000 try it, and let me know when it's done 22:38
pmichaud Wolfman2000: you're now "editor" role
mberends: wordpress wants the email addr you used when registering with wordpress 22:39
Wolfman2000 pmichaud++: Editor role is the one you wanted
pmichaud Wolfman2000: thanks!
mberends pmichaud: it was gravatar at the domain autoexec.demon.nl 22:41
Tene pmichaud: I'm changing my pw now... you can add [email@hidden.address]
wp username: tenebrackets
pmichaud tene: added 22:42
mberends: added 22:43
mberends pmichaud: it works, thanks :) 22:44
pmichaud okay, time to take my wife to dinner -- bbiaw 22:46
colomon pmichaud: actually, I think having you open up the meta operator idea will give me more space to get into the fun details of the hyper operators. 22:47
pmichaud colomon: okay, good.
22:47 payload joined
pmichaud I also didn't mention that someday the hypers can be multithreaded :) 22:47
okay, gone for a while
colomon afk, Guy Fieri Live show. :) 22:49
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zaslon lolmoritzhazblogged! moritz++ 'Doubt and Confidence': perlgeek.de/blog-en/misc/doubt-and-...dence.html 23:00
23:04 jferrero left
mberends moritz_: s/extend/extent/ 23:08
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