»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: , or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by wolfe.freenode.net on 30 October 2009.
zaslon lolperl6adventhazblogged! perl6advent++ 'Day 16: We call it ‘the old switcheroo’': perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/1...witcheroo/ 00:03
carlin eiro: to get around that I usually do: git remote rm origin && git remote add origin [email@hidden.address] 00:04
but I've seen others suggest editing the .git/config file 00:05
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IllvilJa thanks for a great advent calendar posting. 00:10
eiro thx carlin, first patch pushed 00:12
carlin it was a good post, masak++ for 'giving' us it 00:13
jnthn I love it 'when' masak++ blogs 00:14
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carlin the puns were a given 00:20
eiro 'night all 00:22
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frettled battles bravely with Rakudo. 01:15
I just discovered that the REPL remembers previous declarations of subtypes, methods, and so on.
jnthn frettled: In general, it remembers stuff that went into the lexpad, but not that went into the lexpad. 01:17
oh waht
into the *namespace, but not...
frettled aha 01:18
pugs_svn r29346 | lwall++ | [S04] slight clarification to break semantics 01:22
diakopter consider the semantics broken
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diakopter .. I thought it was funny 01:37
frettled heh 01:42
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Wolfman2000 carlin++ for his post 01:50
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frettled Hmm, I think I may have found a rakudobug. 01:54
Or I may be misremembering something about autovivification.
No, I don't think I'm misremembering. 01:56
rakudo: my @a; @a[0]=1; say @a.elems; say @a[0].WHAT; say @a[1].WHAT; say @a.elems; 01:57
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 1␤Int()␤Failure()␤2␤
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frettled ng: my @a; @a[0]=1; say @a.elems; say @a[0].WHAT; say @a[1].WHAT; say @a.elems; 01:58
p6eval ng 0307c2: 1␤Int()␤Proxy()␤1␤
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diakopter ng: &.WHAT 02:21
p6eval ng 0307c2: Lexical 'self' not found␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
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colomon has had enough of being frustrated with $work today. time to be frustrated with ng... 03:03
diakopter ng: &.WHAT 03:05
p6eval ng 0307c2: Lexical 'self' not found␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤ 03:06
JimmyZ rakudo: for^20{my ($a,$b)=<AT CG GC TA>.pick.comb;my ($c,$d)=6+4*sin($_/2),6+4*sin($_/2+2); ($c,$d)=$c min$d,$c max$d;say sprintf "%{$c}s%{$d-$c}s",$a,$b} 03:07
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: A T␤ CG␤ T A␤ C G␤ A T␤ G C␤ G C␤ AT␤ AT␤ G C␤ T A␤ A T␤ T A␤ A T␤ TA␤ C G␤ T A␤ C G␤ C G␤ G C␤
dalek kudo/ng: 8a7d1c5 | tene++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
try {} should not catch control exceptions
JimmyZ ng: for^20{my ($a,$b)=<AT CG GC TA>.pick.comb;my ($c,$d)=6+4*sin($_/2),6+4*sin($_/2+2); ($c,$d)=$c min$d,$c max$d;say sprintf "%{$c}s%{$d-$c}s",$a,$b} 03:08
p6eval ng 0307c2: Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 1␤current instr.: 'perl6;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1664 (src/stage0/Regex-s0.pir:907)␤
colomon Tene: you out there? 03:11
Tene colomon: I'm here. 03:12
colomon So, when I was talking with pmichaud the other day about working around the array calling bug, he talked about removing the Positional role check that is failing. 03:13
Any idea where that would be?
here's the issue:
ng: sub a(@b) { say @b; }; a(1...3) 03:14
p6eval ng 0307c2: Null PMC access in get_string()␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6Role;Str' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤
colomon it's better with the trace:
errr....
diakopter rakudo: for^20{my ($a,$b)=<AT CG GC TA>.pick.comb;my ($c,$d)=6+4*sin($_/2),6+4*sin($_/2+2); ($c,$d)=$c min$d,$c max$d;printf "%{$c}s%{$d-$c}s",$a,$b}
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: C G GC A T A T G C A T G C AT AT G C C G C G T A T A GC G C C G C G A T G C 03:15
diakopter say sprintf?
oh, you wanted the line breaks 03:16
lisppaste3 colomon pasted "maybe the error trace" at paste.lisp.org/display/92172 03:17
colomon anyway, Tene, was wondering if you had any notion where the argument binding is happening. 03:18
I've been poking around binder/bind.c, but haven't figured out anything useful yet. 03:19
Tene colomon: no, can't say that I can help here, sorry. 03:22
colomon Hmmm... looks like maybe in Rakudo_binding_bind_one_param 03:26
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colomon ack, it's tantalizingly close to making sense to me now.... 03:38
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colomon bother. maybe tomorrow. time for bed now. 03:42
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dalek p-rx: 7c9ba0a | tene++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
"Fat Arrow" named parameter passing syntax for japhb++
 04:36
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Tene hugme: add japhb to nqp-rx 04:38
hugme Tene: sorry, you don't have permissions to change 'nqp-rx'
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Tene Hmm. 04:38
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diakopter hugme: describe nqp-rx 04:39
hugme: nqp-rx
hugme: nqp-rx?
japhb hugme: projects
diakopter hugme: help
hugme diakopter: (add $who to $project | list projects | show $project | hug $nickname | tweet $twittername $message )
diakopter hugme show nqp-rx
hugme diakopter: the following people have power over 'nqp-rx': PerlJam, TimToady, [particle], jnthn, masak, moritz_, pmichaud. URL: github.com/perl6/nqp-rx/
diakopter PerlJam: bzzt 04:40
[particle]: bzzt
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diakopter hugme: list projects 04:40
hugme diakopter: I know about book, gge, hugme, ilbot, json, november, nqp-rx, nqpbook, perl6-examples, proto, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, temporal-flux-perl6syn, tufte, web
PerlJam diakopter: eh? 04:42
diakopter PerlJam: japhb wants added to nqp-rx
PerlJam hugme add japhb to nqp-rx 04:43
hugme hugs japhb. Welcome to nqp-rx!
japhb PerlJam, diakopter: thanks!
diakopter now wreak havoc!
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japhb diakopter, MWU-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaa ..... 04:49
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moritz_ good morning 07:33
flip214 morning! 07:35
Are there any definitions about reduce() being serialized or not?
I'd like to use some variables for caching intermediate results ... 07:36
but if multiple threads could access them it might be a problem.
I don't know offhand whether reduce() can be used left-to-right, right-to-left and/or parallelized ... is there an option for that? 07:37
moritz_ it's left-to-right 07:38
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flip214 and serialized? 07:43
colomon I'm kind of surprised there isn't a right-to-left adverb on reduce(). 07:48
flip214: and serialized, yes. 07:49
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moritz_ flip214: what do you mean by "serialized"? 07:51
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moritz_ same as "sequential"? 08:07
colomon that's how I took it, as distinct from "parallelized". 08:09
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moritz_ doesn't understand how a reduce could be left-to-right and still parallelized 08:16
flip214 yes - so that I can use a few tricks to speed up the calculation. 08:19
colomon: I'm surprised, too ... P6 should be better than Haskell and Lisp, shouldn't it? 08:20
moritz: parallelized was meant as a third alternative.
for [+] you can do parts of the array in parallel, and only combine the semi-results in the master thread. 08:21
moritz_ only if all multis of infix:<+> are associative
which you generally can't know
flip214 maybe an operator could define whether it's parallizeable
yes, of course. 08:22
But if an operator could tell that by a trait or something like that ...
even [/] could be done in parallel, by .[0] / ([*] .[1..*]) 08:23
(for normal arithmetic again)
moritz_ there's another problem 08:24
flip214 Sorry - not "an operator", but "a multi"
is there?
moritz_ if you do [+] @list, @list can be lazy
flip214 yes?
moritz_ and the number of elements would not be known in advance
flip214 yeS?
moritz_ so the optimizer doesn't have enough data to decide if it's worth parallelizing
flip214 so thread 1 does [1] + [5], thread 2 does [2]+[6], ...
moritz_ how does it even know there's a 5th and 6th item? 08:25
flip214 by doing clustered reads on the array? would help with cpu cache, too.
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flip214 first try to get some elements, and handle them in other threads ... 08:25
depends how long the element fetch takes, of course. 08:26
maybe the fetching takes much longer than the calculation
(eg reading from network etc.)
I think that if there's a way to tell reduce to try parallalizing it should be done only if the common case has many elements. 08:27
and so, if there are only a few elements, it won't take much time, too. (of course, some time gets wasted by thread creation/deletion etc.)
but if the common case is known (by profiling or whatever)
there's a good chance that this will improve performance. 08:28
especially as there will be more and more cpus in all computers ...
moritz_ it'll be interesting to see how lightweight or heavyweight threads will be
flip214 maybe some implementations might use a thread pool? 08:30
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surya Hiii 08:50
anybody home 08:51
08:51 gfx left
colomon hello 08:52
moritz_ for some value of "home" :-)
surya I m a perl fan
08:53 ejs joined
moritz_ great 08:53
surya just wanted to ask you great guys
moritz_ welcome to the wonderful world of Perl 6
surya wht kind of development actiity is going on
*activity
and hw can I contribute ?
moritz_ well, a lot of things are being developed: the language specification, the test suite, compilers, modules, documentation, a book, module installer... 08:54
surya: what kind of work would you like to do?
and in which programming languages?
surya I have workex in perl 5.8 - perl 5.10 08:55
PHP 5 and Java
plus I do a lot of DB level things
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moritz_ there's a project going on that might interest you 08:56
two, actually
surya all these devlopment activities are intimating
moritz_ Squerl is a kind of ORM-wrapper (in Perl 6) around sqlite: use.perl.org/~masak/journal/39686
surya let me quickly go through tht 08:57
moritz_ and Tim Bunce is working on DBDI, something similar to DBI on the parrot level
08:57 masak joined
moritz_ but maybe for starters it's easiest to write a small, pure-perl module to get used to Perl 6 08:57
surya hmmm 08:58
masak I just got here, but I agree. :)
better to start small.
moritz_ surya: masak is the guy behind squerl, so if you have any questions about it...
masak in particular, make sure you have a really tight code-run-code cycle.
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surya thanks for tht insight 08:58
masak Rakudo is so slow, so one needs to compensate by testing often.
surya let me check with masak 08:59
masak it's like it induces a TDD style. :)
08:59 Woodi left
masak backlogs 08:59
surya wht kind of code are you writing 09:01
so masak
masak surya: I try to write everything I can think of. :)
partly to learn, partly to exercise Rakudo.
surya :-) 09:02
so for a beginner like me wht wud u suggest ?
09:02 Woodi joined
masak surya: find something that interests you; do that. 09:02
I could be more specific. we do need hands here and there. 09:03
surya hmm
moritz_ start reading about Perl 6, and play with it while you read
masak yes, that.
surya so is thr a location whr we have wish list or something similar ?
09:03 ejs1 joined
eiro hello guys 09:03
mathw Finding something you're interested in will be far more successful in the long term
masak eiro: \o
surya :-)
vorner surya: I tried to write maildir parser, but it turned out it needs to get faster and lazy for it to be of practical use.
However, it was just few lines of code, which is kind of nice. 09:04
masak many things are blocking on speed, and stability.
but it's still fun to push the limits as they recede. :)
surya nice
maildir
let me read abt tht 09:05
mathw I wrote a maildir parser in Haskell once
That was fun
It was to feed messages through crm114 to teach it about spam and ham, and doing it in Perl seemed too obvious
vorner Anyway, for my needs, I will probably need to write it in C to be fast and lightweight enough (or rakudo would have to get better really a lot) 09:07
mathw Maybe in a year or two
surya hmm
so wht if I hv to write examples fr audience
vorner mathw: is it expected to get like 10 times faster than perl5? 09:08
surya cos I find example based documentation is also very important
yeah c is very fast
but I m nt a c guy
c, looks like out of world to me :-D
moritz_ surya: github.com/perl6/book/ is an attempt to write a Perl 6 book with lots of useful examples
surya lil no no I m quite fast in c till the time u ask me to wrtite hello world program 09:09
mathw vorner: hmm, that might be asking a bit much
surya :-)
mathw masak: nice advent :)
masak mathw: ta :) 09:10
mathw I hadn't realised I mentioned smartmatching before anybody actually explained it
vorner mathw: Yes, I know. Perl is nice (and getting nicer every version), but it is not really ment for powerfull and fast computations.
mathw This is the problem with writing tutorial material
vorner: A friend of mine uses it a lot for that, but he cheats - he drives the thing from Perl, but does the heavy maths in C libraries he binds with XS
Which gives him a nice balance between ease of sticking bits together, and speed of computation 09:11
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Su-Shee POGL has some interesting opengl benchmarks where parts of the perl-c-mix are even faster than pure c. 09:12
moritz_ masak: ($c,$d)=$c min$d,$c max$d; looks like a candidate for minmax, no?
wayland76 Really? Cool :)
moritz_ rakudo: say (2 minmax 4).perl
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'infix:minmax'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
flip214 vorner: I still have the hope that with perl6 -> parrot -> llcm -> C code -> c compiler there's a chance to get nearly to C
moritz_ ouch
or sort
($c,$d)=sort($c,d) 09:13
masak moritz_: by the way, Squerl isn't specific to sqlite... it's just that we haven't gotten around to adding in mySQL.
flip214 And if everything else fails, maybe just rewriting a few parts in C should be enough
mathw flip214: I think Parrot could get really fast, but it's going to take a while before they get near that point
vorner flip214: would be really nice, I guess
moritz_ rakudo: my ($c, $d) = 4, 3; ($c, $d).=sort; say $c
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 3␤ 09:14
moritz_ rakudo: my ($c, $d) = 4, 3; ($c, $d).=sort; say ~($c, $d)
masak rakudo: my ($c, $d) = sort(4, 3); say $c
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 3 4␤
rakudo 55f51d: 3␤
moritz_ I think ($c, $d).=sort is cheating :-)
but I'm not sure
masak moritz_: do you think I should change the program in the blog post?
moritz_ TimToady: should it work?
masak: I find sort nicer, but it's your call really 09:15
masak moritz_: I'll do it :)
flip214 Well, as I said ... if there's an easy way to interface with C (eg. by storing objects as a C structure), a few pieces can always be optimized.
masak I kinda guessed mine wasn't the shortest possible variant.
flip214 And AFAIK it's only a *very* small part of code that has to be really optimized.
moritz_ speaking of the advent... is there a way to turn off the "possibly related posts" section? 09:16
it's kinda distracting, and has very bad matches most of the time
masak moritz_: you keep asking questions about Wordpress which are really Google queries! en.support.wordpress.com/related-posts/ 09:18
(and yes, you may definitely turn them off.) 09:19
vorner Well, the program I needed was mostly only the parsing. And when I need it to run fast, then there is no much motivation to go by the trouble of having perl-C together. 09:20
masak surya: I can tell you a bit more about my interests: I like to write small apps that do new things. in doing so, I like to find new bugs and report them. I sometimes make commits to Rakudo. and I blog about stuff. 09:26
surya Okk
so all the code u write is in c?
moritz_ writes tests for the test suite, chapters for the book, rakudo patches and sometimes I enhance my plotting library in Perl 6 09:27
all that is either Perl 6 or English
(with few exceptions)
masak oh, forgot about the book. :) 09:28
surya: no, it's mostly Perl 6, like moritz_++ said.
surya Okk got it 09:29
so I shud start with test cases
?
masak surya: sometimes it's Perl 5, too. it's funny, these past two years have given me a great respect for the capabilities of Perl 5.
surya whts ur suggestion ?
masak surya: test cases for an app you want to write? yes, sure!
that's a good idea.
Su-Shee "use vocals" ;)
surya cool 09:30
does GIT has the documentation etc 09:31
moritz_ BTW the google webmaster tool says the perl6advent feed has 260 subscribers via google
vorner surya: Me? No, my hobby is to know as many languages as possible, so I write in what comes at hand usually. But there are reasons for C sometimes.
surya masak: Okk 09:32
mathw moritz_: nice :)
masak surya: git has plenty of documentation. my favorite introduction is called 'git from the bottom up'/
surya cool
let me go ahead n start reading some material 09:33
colomon moritz_: \o/ 09:35
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wayland76 adventcalendar++ 10:01
mathw :)
hejki say "you're right" when /adventcalendar++/;
wayland76 All these new names :)
hejki s:g/\+/\\+/
well i gotta admit i'm here partly cause of the advent calendar 10:02
but mainly since i'm active with perl5 (and am genuinely interested about perl6)
masak \o/
moritz_ has a blog post scheduled about marketing Perl 6 in 2009. It shows the page view stats including the /. peak :-)
hejki but sure, the advent calendar is more than really nice for PR :>
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frettled moritz_: neat 10:04
wayland76 has everyone seen this? perlalchemy.blogspot.com/2009/05/api-design.html 10:05
frettled now I have!
moritz_ you can blame the ironman competition. Without it I would have published the post straight away 10:06
wayland76 Sure it's from May, but I figured it might be useful to those designing P6 modules that they intend to release someday
frettled It might have been from 1990.
(because, among other things, he's not mentioning test-driven development) 10:07
moritz_ wayland76: I've seen the Tech Talk it's referring to, and was positively surprised how well the RFCs and exegeses fit the criteria
wayland76 Yes, and some of his stuff sounds like he's vaguely groping towards aglie programming concepts 10:08
moritz_ frettled: well, the "write examples first" is kinda like TDD in intent
JimmyZ with Parrot-1.9.0 & mingw, cannot build Rakudo (master)
RichiH frettled: yah, i wondered where "test, test, test" was in the post :)
JimmyZ perl6_ops.o:perl6_ops.c:(.text+0x5d2d): undefined reference to `GETATTR_CallSignature_results' from fperrad++
wayland76 s/aglie/agile/ -- the other sounds like it's ugly :)
RichiH moritz_: use case != test
moritz_ RichiH: right. But writing tests cases for an API that's not implemented yet isn't more useful than writing examples 10:09
at least not for the API designer 10:10
RichiH moritz_: not at first, but you can track progress by seeing how fewer and fewer tests fail
moritz_ RichiH: when you *implement* it. Sure. But that's not what the talk is about 10:11
and yes, I know how valuable tests are for implementations. Which is why I commit to the Perl 6 test suite, occasionally
10:11 agentzh left
masak moritz_++ # if only more people did it with the frequency you call 'occasionally' :) 10:12
RichiH moritz_: i still think it should have been mentioned. especially as a single sentence like 'use those use cases to design tests and run them!' would have fit into it, imo
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frettled moritz_: It's not "a talk", it's a web page trying to sum up what's needed for good API design. 10:17
moritz_: that there incidentally is a talk in there, is because he's trying to provide links to his sources :)
moritz_ and I've seen that talk which he uses as a source 10:18
that's what I wanted to say
frettled as one of his sources :)
But sure, you need to know what you're going to _use_ your API for. 10:20
That's why I said it could have been written in 1990.
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frettled Perhaps there is a need for a web page collecting how to best go about API design, but I have a feeling that he's already off on the wrong track. 10:20
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moritz_ so, is it not agile enough for you? 10:24
or what are missing?
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masak hugme: tweet rakudoperl Perl 6 advent calendar day 16: We call it 'the old switcheroo' bit.ly/7E2uFM 10:30
hugme hugs masak; tweet delivered
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frettled moritz_: I don't care about «agile» per se. 10:32
moritz_ masak++
frettled moritz_: But I believe that testing is such a fundamental part of API design that neglecting to mention it on a web page that attempts to collect information and references for good API design would be criminal, if anything in programming was. 10:33
wayland76 IMHO, the web page looks more like some notes thrown together than a carefully compiled compendium 10:34
frettled Yep. 10:35
wayland76 I'm not saying it's wonderful, but ... maybe someone could do better :) Or something :)
frettled But I'm projecting negativity here, so I'll stop. Instead, I'll ask for help :)
Su-Shee are you really complaining that someone did left out to mention testing (which everybody obviously alread knows) in a blog posting? :)
frettled Su-Shee: «everybody» don't know that yet :) 10:36
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Su-Shee well let's hope that your jobs are all already evolved to actually having some testing.. ;) 10:37
moritz_ Su-Shee: does yours?
Su-Shee no, that's my point. 10:38
I actually have yet to see the company - my jobs or friends - which actually _does_ programming that nicely and well organized. ;) 10:39
though we have human testers which actually do the stuff you didn't think of anyone would ever do. ;) 10:40
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frettled m-hm 10:42
There's almost no test-driven code at $orkplace.
moritz_ so writing tests would destroy their jobs :/
frettled haha
Their jobs are already meaningless! ;)
moritz_ why? the improve the quality of the product
s/the/they/ 10:43
Su-Shee no. human testers and written tests test totally different things.
in 99% of all companies I know, the schedule usally kills writing tests first.
moritz_ and then the unwritten tests kill the schedule, by letting regressions slip in 10:44
wayland76 Have you tried adopting the "User Stories" from "eXtreme Programming"? 10:45
Su-Shee no, the schedule kills the schedule. ;) and developers have usally a very optimistic view on their use of time.
moritz_ Su-Shee: yes.
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Su-Shee wayland76: I've never seen a company actually getting to something which resembles any by-the-book-concept of project management. 10:50
wayland76 Su-Shee: Maybe not, but that doesn't mean that it isn't worth giving things a go 10:51
mathw Where I work, we do a fairly literal version of scrum 10:52
It actually works... most of the time
A lot depends on what you put into it, of course
lisppaste3 frettled pasted "What am I doing wrong?" at paste.lisp.org/display/92184 10:53
moritz_ is_success ($_, $target) 10:55
remove that space
you're passing a list of $_, $target as the first positional argumet to is_success
frettled Argh, typical! 10:58
Thanks.
Hmm, no, that doesn't solve it. 10:59
It fails before then, it fails at the type check for sub roll. 11:00
moritz_ say roll @*ARGS[0].Int, @*ARGS[1].Int } 11:01
but you declared the second parameter to be named 11:02
when 1|2 { say roll |@*ARGS>>.Int }
if you declare it as an optional positional parameter 11:03
but it doesn't exactly explain the error
frettled Mm, that's what I wanted, I wonder where that colon came from.
moritz_ colomon is our colon specialist :-) *SCNR* 11:04
(actually masak++ is)
masak It's the third law of Perl 6: masak dislikes the colon. :P 11:05
frettled Now it's working.
masak at least I don't think it should be over-used.
moritz_ masak: why do you dislike it?
masak moritz_: two reasons, both quite weak.
moritz_ masak: looking at your code it seems you use it quite frequently
masak O RLY? :)
frettled The problem with rewriting code for a paste is that I sometimes lose things or add things involuntarily, hehe 11:06
Okay, this will become a blog post tonight, I think. :)
moritz_ masak: at least in the code you blog
frettled moritz_++ - you helped me nail it.
moritz_ frettled: there's a good reason to use version control even for simple things
masak moritz_: (1) I've once spent half an hour looking for a bug which turned out to be due to precedence problems involving the colon form of method invocation.
frettled moritz_: yeah, but I'm using copy+paste via a buggy copy+paste implementation
Snow Leopard broke copy+paste between X11 and other apps. 11:07
So I created a FIFO to paste from X11 to X11, then jump over to a Terminal.app and copy+paste out from there. But sometimes, the FIFO loses things, or I lose things when selecting for paste.
masak moritz_: (2) colons exist in so many forms that they initially confuse newcomers. I experienced that first-hand in szabgab++'s class before YAPC::EU. I found myself saying "No, that's not an adverb colon, that's a method invocation colon". people groaned from pain. 11:08
frettled I really need to get cracking on using a remote repository for this.
moritz_ sounds like 21st century technology :-)
(to frettled)
masak: hm, interesting
frettled :D
11:08 vorner left
masak frettled: for some reason, copy+pasting via Emacs always works for me. 11:08
frettled Next challenge for me: create a dice roller for the L5R system. 11:09
masak: in this case, the code is on a remote computer which I access through SSH and screen within screen. There, it's running in Emacs.
Oooh, luncheon!
frettled frettles and idles.
masak frettled: oh. 11:11
moritz_: oh! I _do_ like the named-parameter colons. 11:20
I especially like that :$foo is a short form of :foo($foo)
mathw everyone wants the colon
masak and that it ignores twigils. 11:21
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wayland76 Not having a colon is pretty unhealthy :) 11:36
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frettled Do we use '·' yet? :) 12:06
wayland76 Probably not; there aren't that many unicode operators as part of the Perl core 12:11
masak can I refer to the private attribute of a role through the private-attribute syntax? self!SomeRole::attr 12:15
jnthn masak: Depends what you mean by "private attribute of a role" 12:17
If you mean that you had a role Foo { has $!attr } 12:18
masak jnthn: role Austria { has $!attr }
yes.
jnthn Yeah
but composition is flattening.
So you'd just use the name of the class you composed the role into there.
masak ah.
makes sense.
jnthn After composition, the only relation between a class and a role is that the class knows it does that role.
masak rakudo: class A { has $!b is readonly = "foo" }; A.new 12:19
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: ( no output )
masak locally, "No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'trait_mod:is'"
should that work?
jnthn We probably allow $foo.Role::Method but mostly because methods make sense alone whereas attributes just refer to slots...
masak: Probably...
masak submits rakudobug 12:20
at least the warning is LTA-ly suspicious.
jnthn Well, it's not far off the mark. 12:21
masak it makes it sound as if 'is readonly' is not implemented...
jnthn Right, which in that case it evidently isn't. :-) 12:22
masak so, to summarize: the bug is that 'is readonly' isn't implemented. 12:23
we also don't really know whether it should work, semantically, to assign to a readonly variable during object construction.
masak notices he is talking to his RT tickets again
"no, dearie, we can't close you yet. your observable isn't satisfied, see." 12:24
12:25 frettled sets mode: +o masak
frettled Just in case you were low on carbs. 12:25
masak thanks. :) 12:27
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wayland76 seems to have finally beated cpan2dist into submission 12:28
...after significant modification to the code :) 12:29
frettled So now it's cpan3dist?
wayland76 well, not quite
But at least you can tell it which packages to force, and at what stages; at least enough for my needs :)
BinGOs modifications where? are they useful upstream? 12:30
wayland76 wonders how difficult it would be to get these things incorporated into the module :)
jnthn masak: Yes, that is a good question.
wayland76 They probably would be, but I've been modifying my live copy :)
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jnthn masak: the other disconnect is that in has $.x is readonly you'd expect it to be about the generated accessor, not the actual attribute. 12:30
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masak jnthn: I've gotten used to that one. 12:31
BinGOs wayland76: it is feature updates my hands are tied at the moment
though they could go into 0.92
I'm working on shipping 0.90 of CPANPLUS some time in the next couple of days. 12:32
maybe even today.
wayland76 Ok :)
Is there an IRC channel for CPANPLUS?
jnthn masak: yeah, same
masak oh! does the 'when' clause, when it matches, call infix:<~~>, or the .ACCEPTS method on the expression? 12:33
frettled #CPANPLUS?
BinGOs not as such, but #toolchain on irc.perl.org is a catch-all for perl5 toolchain related matters.
wayland76 frettled: Yeah, but on which network?
jnthn masak: iirc, ~~
moritz_ masak: first of all smart match is partially syntactic
BinGOs CPAN/CPANPLUS are considered toolchain.
jnthn masak: but it also applies same syntactic cases
wayland76 BinGOs: will continue conversation there :) 12:34
masak I'm asking because I'm trying to think of something sensible to answer to the question "For overloading smart matching, am I right in assuming is just a plain ol’ `multi sub infix:<~~>`?"
...on my advent blog post.
I want to involve .ACCEPTS in the answer, but only if it actually matters.
moritz_ overloading infix:<~~> is plain wrong 12:35
frettled wayland76: wherever you want it to be :)
moritz_ because it's not a multi, and because of the syntactic cases
which makes it more of a macro
masak ok.
moritz_ so writing an ACCEPTS method for the object on the RHS is "the right thing" 12:36
frettled ooh, I'd like to see the code for that
(and answers to the questions to Dec. 12)
moritz_ ng: class A { has $.x; multi method ACCEPTS($topic) { $!x == $topic } }; say 4 ~~ A.new(:x(2)) 12:37
p6eval ng 8a7d1c: 0␤
moritz_ ng: class A { has $.x; multi method ACCEPTS($topic) { $!x == $topic } }; say 4 ~~ A.new(:x(4))
p6eval ng 8a7d1c: 1␤
moritz_ ng: class A { has $.x handles <ACCEPTS> }; say 4 ~~ A.new(:x(4))
p6eval ng 8a7d1c: Method 'ACCEPTS' not found for invocant of class 'A'␤current instr.: '&infix:<~~>' pc 177791 (src/gen/perl6-actions.pir:0)␤
moritz_ delegation NYI in ng? 12:38
masak rakudo: role DivisibleBy[Int $n] { method ACCEPTS($obj) { $obj !% $n } }; class DivisibleByThree does DivisibleBy[3] {}; say $_ ~~ DivisibleByThree for 15, 42 12:39
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: ( no output )
masak locally, that gives me "0\n0".
why 0 the first time?
moritz_ rakudo: say $_ !% 3 for 15, 42 12:41
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 1␤1␤
12:41 Baggio_ left
masak oops. :/ 12:41
bad counterexample. :P
moritz_ masak: also you need to instantiate DivisibleByThree, afaict 12:42
otherwise it's just a type check
which is always False
masak moritz_: thanks.
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flip214 Is there someone I can tell that a reported bug really slows me down in development? Or does it not matter anyway, as everyone is working as fast as possible? 12:45
masak flip214: feedback like that is good to hear, and is often acted upon in some way. 12:46
moritz_ flip214: you can add a comment in RT, you can blog about, you can tell pmichaud and jnthn
if it's a bug in the setting I might also be able to help
masak fore example, once there was a bug named #78392... 12:47
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masak oh my, I've forgotten the actual number. 12:47
I knew this day would come... :)
moritz_ called "Could not load ticket 78392"
masak: are you referring to "The Bug"? 12:48
masak #58392. that's it.
moritz_ "lexicals and recurion interact badly in Rakudo"
iirc
masak yes.
something like that.
moritz_ "Recursion and for loops interact badly in Rakudo" actually
colomon When was that? 12:49
12:49 vorner left
moritz_ Created: Wed Aug 27 02:54:15 2008 12:49
Closed: Tue Nov 25 10:31:39 2008
masak around November 2008.
colomon before my time. :) 12:50
masak be glad :)
moritz_ it made pmichaud and others basically rewrite the system how lexicals are handled in parrot
masak pmichaud++ others++
colomon and it was yours, masak?
masak colomon: mine and many others'.
colomon (or after my time -- I was around a little bit in the early days of Pugs as well.) 12:51
masak I think I was among the first to run into it, though.
colomon masak++ # master of destruction
moritz_ masak: that's true for lot of masa^Wrakudobug
masak happy to be of destructive service.
moritz_ s
masak moritz_: I think I'll do a talk on bug reporting when I reach 1k. :) 12:52
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moritz_ masak: if you hurry up, you might make it until March :-) 12:53
(unlikely though)
masak yes, unlikely.
more likely sometime in 2011.
12:53 payload joined
masak depends on how much chaos the ng merge causes. :P 12:54
colomon masak: I think we can expect a lot of chaos at this point. :)
masak \o/
colomon either that, or it will be smooth because people like you helped find bugs on it just before it became master...
masak .oO( "I feed on your chaos..." )
moritz_ RSS feed or atom feed? 12:55
masak *groan*
colomon you should totally have an rss feed for your bugs. 12:57
masak actually, that's a good idea. 12:58
flip214 So, if I just use a cronjob to add to my tickets every few minutes, people get so annoyed that my bugs simply get fixed?
colomon masak: yes, I occasionally do have them. ;)
moritz_ flip214: people will get annoyed, yes. But I think the reaction will be different :-) 12:59
masak flip214: I think you might have overapplied some principle somewhere. :)
colomon: :)
my Gmail account claims I've submitted 606 rakudobug tickets.
moritz_ when was the first? 13:00
masak dang, I clicked it away. mid-2008, I think.
lemme check.
flip214 masak++
13:00 mubot left
masak first one was 2008-05-07. 13:02
moritz_ seeing a "fixed in r\d+" in comments of #58392 is somehow odd. To remember that Rakudo once lived in the parrot repo... 13:03
masak that's pretty much exactly one ticket a day on average.
moritz_: I remember, a few years ago, feeling a competitive sort of envy that the Parrot commit numbers were twice as large as the Pugs commit numbers. :) 13:04
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flip214 So, as recommended by masak: 13:14
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flip214 jnthn and pmichaud: would someone please take a look at RT #71128 and #71196? both are problems with "is export". 13:15
masak #71128 gives a 404. 13:16
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flip214 masak: sorry, 71288 - tipyng erorr 13:26
masak that's why copying+pasting is such a good idea. :P 13:31
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flip214 well, "could someone with knowledge please fix the bugs reported by me?" # to make masak happy 13:38
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masak flip214: another thing you can do is make rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=49171 depend on your two tickets. 13:43
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masak half-OT: I found the section "28. Design Principles" of this description of rc, the Plan 9 shell, to be an enjoyable read from a second-system-syndrome-done-right perspective: plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/rc.html 13:51
somehow, the fixes applied feel Perl-6-esque. 13:52
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flip214 masak: may anybody change tickets? 13:57
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masak flip214: you'll probably need to be logged in, but modulo that, anyone may, yes. 13:58
moritz_ no 13:59
you need permissions for the queue
masak oh, ok. 14:00
flip214 I just tried and got "Access denied" ;-( 14:01
Thanks anyway.
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flip214 sorry, konsole crashed 14:04
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frettled Hrm, I'm rolling into dementia: what's the short-circuit operator for only getting the "true" value from: expr ?? "true" !! false 14:10
I want to include it in a concatenated string, q&d. 14:11
PerlJam frettled: expr && "true"
vorner would think ("true", "false")[!!expr] could work, but not tested 14:12
moritz_ ? is shorter than !! :-)
and in Perl 6 means the same
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Juerd_ rakudo: say <true false>[? 5 == 42] 14:13
vorner ah, right, ok, I do not remember all the operators yet ;-)
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: true␤
Juerd_ Great! :)
Now let's swap those :D
PerlJam Juerd++
Juerd_ rakudo: say <false true>[? 5 == 42]
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: false␤
Juerd_ rakudo: say <false true>[? 42 == 42]
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: false␤
Juerd_ :(
moritz_ wron precedence 14:14
Juerd_ Darn
[particle] which binds tighter?
ya
frettled PerlJam: no, expr && "true" results in a zero in case expr is false
Juerd_ But parens are ugly
moritz_ rakudo: say <false true>[5 == 42]
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: false␤
moritz_ rakudo: say <false true>[42 == 42]
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: true␤
Juerd_ moritz_: Doesn't work for all those other true values :)
moritz_ Juerd_: right, only for True values 14:15
Juerd_ And I'm not convinced that this is better than ??!! :)
True is the true true.
PerlJam frettled: so stringify it
vorner Juerd_: it may not be better, but looks nice ;-)
[particle] can you refer to an enum as an array, and by index?
moritz_ don't think you can 14:16
[particle] rakudo: say Bool[42 == 42]
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PerlJam [particle]: I thought enums were more hash-like 14:16
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: Method 'postcircumfix:[ ]' not found for invocant of class ''␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
Juerd_ In many cases it's useful for numeric constants and enums to stringify to their names
TimToady rakudo: say <false true>[true 5 == 42] 14:17
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: false␤
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TimToady rakudo: say <false true>[true 42 == 42] 14:17
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: true␤
Juerd_ Thanks, TimToady
I couldn't remember if there was an opposite for "not"
English doesn't have one. Dutch does.
And apparently so does Perl 6
moritz_ it's called "really?" in English 14:18
Juerd_ Maybe I should alias "true" to the dutch word "wel" in my local version of Perl 6 :)
TimToady we also have "so" 14:19
Juerd_ "so" is not a true opposite.
TimToady is so
Juerd_ Heh.
Then why is true not called so? :)
frettled rakudo: sub whine (:$n) { say ('',' - My goodness!')[$n >= 5] }; whine(4); whine(5);
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤ 14:20
Su-Shee we have "doch" and "so". :)
frettled hmm
I'm out-coloning myself again.
rakudo: sub whine ($n) { say ('',' - My goodness!')[$n >= 5] }; whine(4); whine(5);
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: ␤ - My goodness!␤
moritz_ Su-Shee: "doch" is only a valid answer to negated questions, really
frettled I'd have likd to have the above code without the «'',», but I can do that by negating the test, I suppose. 14:21
rakudo: sub whine ($n) { say (' - My goodness!')[$n < 5] }; whine(4); whine(5);
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: Method 'postcircumfix:[ ]' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
Su-Shee moritz_: I just realized, that we as well have "wohl" ;)
Juerd_ But would you use "wohl" in "doch"s stead?
TimToady sub whine ($n) { say ('',' - My goodness!')[$n !>= 5] }; whine(4); whine(5);
frettled d'oh.
moritz_ no
TimToady rakudo: sub whine ($n) { say ('',' - My goodness!')[$n !>= 5] }; whine(4); whine(5); 14:22
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: Confused at line 2, near "[$n !>= 5]"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
TimToady std: sub whine ($n) { say ('',' - My goodness!')[$n !>= 5] }; whine(4); whine(5);
p6eval std 29346: ok 00:01 110m␤
Juerd_ The Dutch "wel" is used in answering negative questions, but can also be used without such context.
masak I thought >= didn't have a negated variant.
Juerd_ <
moritz_ masak: "because it's too icky?" :-) 14:23
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masak moritz_: you mean "miffly" :P 14:23
TimToady the only one you can't negate is !=
well, and !~~
masak oh, ok. 14:24
things that start with !
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moritz_ std: 1 !!>= 3 14:24
TimToady right
p6eval std 29346: ===SORRY!===␤Ternary !! seems to be missing its ?? at /tmp/G661QJQRg5 line 1:␤------> 1 ⏏!!>= 3␤ expecting any of:␤ infix stopper␤ standard stopper␤ terminator␤FAILED 00:01 105m␤
frettled I feel like I'm grasping for ethereal elegance, but failing.
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Juerd_ Why is !~~ not !~, and !~~ a true negated ~~? 14:24
PerlJam that's a weird message.
TimToady nah, the operator space is a slugfest
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moritz_ Juerd_: because all other operators are negated by prepending a !, and != is just kept for backwards compatiblity 14:25
frettled rakudo: sub whine ($n) { say 'Foo, thou art.' ~ (' - My goodness!')[$n < 5] }; whine(4); whine(5);
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p6eval rakudo 55f51d: Method 'postcircumfix:[ ]' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤ 14:25
moritz_ but !== is still allowed
masak Juerd_: maybe we could use !not :)
frettled rakudo: sub whine ($n) { say 'Foo, thou art.' ~ (' - My goodness!','')[$n < 5] }; whine(4); whine(5);
Juerd_ moritz_: !~~ isn't a true negation, though.
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: Foo, thou art.␤Foo, thou art. - My goodness!␤
TimToady Juerd_: how so?
PerlJam moritz_: and why are we worried about backward compatibility for != ? :)
moritz_ std: say 1 !ne 2
p6eval std 29346: ok 00:01 105m␤
Juerd_ moritz_: foo !~~ bar can be different than !(foo ~~ bar) if I understood correctly.
moritz_ Juerd_: right 14:26
TimToady: because it calls .REJCECTS, and not !.ACCEPTS
iirc
masak nod.
that's what .REJECTS is for.
TimToady maybe it's time to get rid of .REJECTS then
moritz_ TimToady: agreed
masak yes, unless someone comes up with a real good use case. 14:27
Juerd_ Why not make lhs !op rhs the same as !(lhs op rhs) all over the place, and add an exception for !~, just like != is an exception to the !op rule.
moritz_ it's counter-intuitive and mostly redundant
TimToady it seems completely redundant to me
masak come to think of it, I've never seen someone make a good use of REJECTS.
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Juerd_ Heh 14:27
PerlJam Juerd_: I would prefer to git rid of the exceptions rather than add a new one.
rjbs First off, your Advent calendar rocks. It really is making me spend more time playing in the REPL. 14:28
Secondly, how do I convert a range into an array?
Juerd_ PerlJam: I'm not adding a new one. I'm renaming the existing one, and adding a non-exception in its old place)
s/\)//
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masak rjbs: @(1..3) 14:28
frettled TimToady: Do you have a good suggestion on how to simplify that POS code example I have? :D
rjbs masak: graet; is there a postfix/method version?
(1..3).array.perl.say etc
masak rjbs: (1..3).list
moritz_ rakudo: say (1..3).List.perl.say 14:29
TimToady [1..3]
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: Method 'List' not found for invocant of class 'Range'␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
moritz_ rakudo: say (1..3).Array.perl.say
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: [1, 2, 3]␤1␤
rjbs thanks!
I had tried with lc array :)
masak rjbs: I'd use .list, unless you plan to modify it.
moritz_ type conversions are just method calls with the same name as the target type 14:30
rjbs great
masak oh, I wish that were true across the board!
moritz_ "usually"
rjbs perl6 may become a handy replacement for dc in many future cases.
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masak it would make life much simpler. 14:30
rjbs say [+] (1..24)
fab
moritz_ no need for parens there
masak rjbs: no need ... what moritz_ said :)
moritz_ rakudo: say [+] 1..24
rjbs great; wasn't sure about that
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 300␤ 14:31
rjbs it'd be nice if the repl printed the .perl of the last value returned or something
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moritz_ I think that's planned 14:31
masak rjbs: the repl is going away to be replaced by a better one.
rjbs: it would be nice if it remembered variables, too. :(
rjbs yeah, I figure I've whined about that one enough in the past :) 14:32
(and each time heard, "we know, it'll be fixed," and I believey ou)
masak one can never whine enough about that...
moritz_ rjbs: it's good to keep on whining
rjbs Well, until I'm paying closer attention I try not to be the guy who shows up every X period to ask the same question.
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rjbs I figure I'll wait for Rakudo * and if it doesn't have the bare minimum I need to noodle around continuously, then I'll bitch. 14:33
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rjbs right now that's probably all "better repl" and lexiclas 14:33
masak lucky you. :)
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rjbs Well, I've done so little that I never notice bigger issues. 14:34
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pmichaud I have the pieces in place for the better repl. :) 14:34
rjbs like, I only play in the repl, so I don't write classes, etc.
pmichaud (did that part in my grant)
rjbs the first thing I'll bitch about next will be the ability to install libraries to @INC
masak rjbs: classes work surprisingly well. jnthn++
rjbs and then my plan is to port Rx schema to p6, which will probably teach me a lot and give me things to whine about
masak rjbs: that's on its way.
rjbs yeah, I've seen some posts; I've really wanted to contribute to the discussion, but ENOTUITS 14:35
moritz_ rjbs: actually the @*INC situation as slightly improved
it incorporates ~/.perl6/lib/ and . by default
and you can always BEGIN { @*INC.push: 'path' }
PerlJam If only we had macros ... 14:36
rjbs I want: cd Module ; make isntall
basically
moritz_ if 'make install' copies Module.pm to ~/.perl6/lib/ that works 14:37
rakudo: say @*INC.perl
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: ["/home/p6eval/.perl6/lib", "/home/p6eval//p1/lib/parrot/1.8.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib", "lib", "."]␤
moritz_ the "lib" comes from the PERL6LIB env variable which p6eval sets
rjbs Well, like I said, I will wait until then to start complaining in earnest. 14:39
pmichaud rjbs: hopefully you could complain just a bit before we release Rakudo * ? ;-) 14:40
i.e., find some tuits to do so?
we should have the repl issues fixed by jan release
TimToady lovely word, "should"
pmichaud indeed. :) 14:41
but now that I know that repl is a blocker for rjbs, it'll get a bump in priority
TimToady I *should* be getting ready to drive to Seatlle today, sigh...
backlogging is more fun though
pmichaud alas, sometimes "should" !== "-Ofun" 14:42
PerlJam pmichaud: when should ng land? ;)
pmichaud but darn it, it *should* be.
TimToady at least it *should* should
rjbs pmichaud: I will try to. I am a bear of very little memory, so if you poke me at any time I will always make time to look at things.
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pmichaud rjbs: noted, will do. 14:43
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pmichaud rjbs: there will undoubtedly be a twitter notice, use.perl posting, and other announcement that says "We now have a working REPL!" 14:43
moritz_ rjbs++ # constructive complaining
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pugs_svn r29347 | pmurias++ | [mildew-js] ported over various stuff 14:45
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masak what's a 'classical' use case of the C<let> keyword? 14:53
put differently, where do we expect it to be used?
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zaslon lolfrettledhazblogged! frettled++ 'Dice Rolls for Role-Players': howcaniexplainthis.blogspot.com/200...ayers.html 14:54
PerlJam heh, when you said "classical", I immediately thought, "like from BASIC?"
masak PerlJam: LET A$ = "OH HAI" ' :-)
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colomon ng's version of Rat.Rat, coming right up.... 15:11
PerlJam colomon++
JimmyZ ng: 3.14.perl.say
p6eval ng 8a7d1c: 157/50␤
colomon woah, my ng is failing spectests left and right.
JimmyZ colomon: It's a bug?
colomon JimmyZ: 1.1.Rat.say should definitely work.
Annoying... it's trivial to implement, and I've already got it done, but no idea how long it will take me to sort out the spectest fails which are probably completely unrelated....
t/01-sanity/12-try.t fails..
t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/parsing-bool.t fails 15:13
15:13 JimmyZ left
colomon Method 'perl' not found for invocant of class 'Undef' 15:13
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colomon I'm going to push my patch anyway, on the theory that it can't possibly be wrong. :) 15:14
I think try may be broken. 15:16
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colomon Either that or try is now right and a whole bunch of other things are broken because of it. 15:16
dalek kudo/ng: 0e4560e | (Solomon Foster)++ | src/core/Rat.pm:
Add Rat.Rat.
 15:17
moritz_ both seem quite possible
ng: say 1 === 1
p6eval ng 8a7d1c: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤
moritz_ meh
colomon Tene patched try overnight, I should add. 15:18
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moritz_ ng: say 1 === 1 15:18
p6eval ng 8a7d1c: sh: ./perl6: No such file or directory␤
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moritz_ I think he changed it not to catch control exceptions 15:18
hejki hmm.. can i pass ARGS to rakudo?
on the evalbot? :)
moritz_ hejki: no 15:19
hejki ok
moritz_ ng: say 1 === 1
p6eval ng 0e4560: 1␤
moritz_ ng: say 1/1 === 1/1
p6eval ng 0e4560: 0␤
moritz_ that's wrong
since Rat is a value type
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hejki can i paste 2 lines? 15:20
moritz_ sure
hejki [ hejki@cornix ~/ohjelmointi/perl6] $ perl6 -e 'sub MAIN ($a, :$var) { say "a: $a, b: $var"; }' jarmo --var
Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1
:o
shouldn't that use $var as optional param? :)
moritz_ I could well imagine that only positional parameters work for MAIN 15:21
pmichaud we don't have option processing completely implemented yet
moritz_ hejki: please submit that as a bug report to [email@hidden.address]
hejki moritz_: sec, i'll pull first and see if it's reproducible 15:22
moritz_ I'm quite sure nothing changed recently re MAIN
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hejki moritz_: do you use some template or is it freeform? :) 15:24
moritz_ hejki: freeform
just include the small snippet, two lines wy it's wrong, and your Rakudo version 15:25
hejki okies
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hejki ahh ok 15:49
well my program is so simple i think i can do argument parsing the old-fashioned-way :)
and ye
i was just looking at the guts.pir :>
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Juerd_ juerd.nl/i/9f1fb1a8253a519da6e525bbc087f520.png 15:53
backticks?!
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Juerd_ From perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/1.../#comments 15:53
Is this a wordpress quirk?
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moritz_ yes; should be ordinary single quotes 15:54
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frettled It's a single quote: ‘ 15:57
As in: ‘oh dear’
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frettled The exact copy is: ‘ = ‘ 15:58
Juerd_: apparently, your browser and/or chosen font doesn't support that unicode character.
The backtick is probably what it thought was closest. 15:59
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moritz_ but it's a wordpress fail that it tries "smart" typography in code tags 16:01
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Juerd_ frettled: I see 16:04
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pmurias_ ruoso: hi 16:21
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frettled moritz_++ 16:21
moritz_ Juerd_: say [+] (1..6).pick(5, :replace).sort.[2...]; that should be 2..* inside the square brackets 16:22
std: .[2...]
p6eval std 29347: ===SORRY!===␤Bogus statement at /tmp/R7MLFJ8Jq9 line 1:␤------> .[2...⏏]␤ expecting any of:␤ prefix or term␤ standard stopper␤ term␤ terminator␤ whitespace␤FAILED 00:01 107m␤
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colomon ooooo, nice. 16:23
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frettled rakudo: say [+] (1..6).pick(5, :replace).sort.[2..*]; 16:24
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: Use of uninitialized value␤12␤
moritz_ rakudo: say [+] (1..6).pick(5, :replace).sort.[2..*-1]; 16:25
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 16␤
moritz_ rakudo: say (1..6).pick(5, :replace).sort.[2..*-1];
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 446␤
frettled ng: say [+] (1..6).pick(5, :replace).sort.[2..*];
p6eval ng 0e4560: Confused at line 1, near "say [+] (1"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 519 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:336)␤
colomon frettled: that's sooooo not working in ng yet. :) 16:26
frettled :D
moritz_ ng: say [+] 1
p6eval ng 0e4560: Confused at line 1, near "say [+] 1"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 519 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:336)␤
colomon definitely doesn't have [+], probably doesn't have pick, sort, or 2..* as a slice.
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Juerd_ moritz_: Oh, right. Infinite list is probably a bad idea if you're actually going to try to use them all. 16:37
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moritz_ Juerd_: 1... isn't an infinite list. It's just a parse error 16:42
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Juerd_ moritz_: Oh. I find it really hard to learn the current Perl 6 syntax; I still have an ancient version in my head, and mix it with some new fancy things. 16:45
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Juerd_ Especially the * doesn't stick. 16:46
While it's such a neat feature.
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hejki how do i set a default value for a variable within a class? 17:03
moritz_ do you mean an attribute? 17:04
hejki yeah :>
moritz_ class Foo { has $.data = 1 }
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hejki and to set it rw? 17:06
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PerlJam hejki: class Foo { has $.data is rw = 1 } 17:10
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hejki najs :) 17:10
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diakopter ok, I've joined #perl6 on magnet 17:11
fed up with the netsplits
setting up p6eval and dalek to report there (as well) 17:12
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colomon diakopter: is that irc.perl.org? 17:30
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diakopter colomon: yeah 17:33
diakopter watches (with interest) the fireworks in #parrot I wish someone would see the implications of the results of all of my C#/mono ports of parrot/examples/benchmarks/*.pasm (and *.pir) - the results were that mono does them all 10-20 (and in some cases 100)x faster. 17:36
heck, a couple of the (further irreducible) .pasm and .pir versions are 5-10x *slower* than Perl 5 17:38
all: ^^ I am not making this up. 17:41
moritz_ diakopter: that still doesn't mean that a dynamic language implemented on top of mono is faster
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moritz_ for example fib.pir doesn't exploit a single feature that you need for dynamic languages 17:42
diakopter moritz_: I agree, but that would imply that there is some crucial aspect that's not tested in parrot/example/benchmarks
moritz_ diakopter: that I agree with 17:43
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colomon Any idea how much of the slowness is just memory allocation? 17:44
I've never worked with parrot directly, but it sure seems like Rakudo is an amazing memory hog. 17:45
moritz_ it sure is :/
colomon: maybe 40% is garbage collection
diakopter moritz_: any idea how to write some microbenchmarks that might test the [combinations of] the primitive operations used in dynamic languages? 17:46
Tene moritz_: Yes, I changed try {} to not catch control exceptions, as Coke++ pointed out it's specced. I didn't actually look at the spectests, as I'm still a bit confused about what tests ng should be running or not. Is this an error? 17:47
moritz_ Tene: ng's "make test" and "make specteest" should both be clean
Tene Oh. That's helpful.
moritz_ make spectest only runs a reduced set that should all pass
(though didn't quite, last I looked) 17:48
it might be worth looking into Test.pm, maybe that depends on the old try { } behaviour
Tene oh, maybe it's not returning the result of the block anymore... 17:49
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Tene Well, lemme see what actually fails. 17:50
colomon the problems I saw were tests that actually used try directly.
Tene I've only got a couple of minutes to look at it before going to work, though.
colomon but I didn't look in too much detail.
Tene colomon: can you point one out to me please?
diakopter moritz_: were you thinking vtables and PIC and such? 17:51
moritz_ diakopter: no
colomon Tene: t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/parsing-bool.t
moritz_ well, maybe vtables
diakopter I'd be glad to put some time into such microbenchmarks... 17:52
moritz_ operations that have to be dispatched at run time
where the equivalent in mono can't optimize based on types
diakopter ok, run time type-checking and type-dispatching
moritz_ Tene: t/01-sanity/12-try.t 17:53
try { die };
dies
ng: try { die }; say "alive"
p6eval ng 0e4560: Died␤␤current instr.: '&die' pc 13897 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:186)␤
Tene Heh. That throws a CONTROL_ERROR exception. 17:54
Which is a CONTROL exception, according to parrot.
That's classy. :)
moritz_ that's... curious
diakopter jump tables built on mappings of type handles/IDs to case blocks...
?
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moritz_ diakopter: make a version of fib.pir in mono where you don't declare the number to be an integer 17:56
diakopter or just low-level message dispatching/routing/delegating?
moritz_: a boxed integer, then
moritz_ no
fib("23") would work too, in the parrot case
so it needs to coerces to a number 17:57
diakopter in fib.pir, they're all "int"
moritz_ and then use the addition that fits best to the number format that the coercion return
then s/int/pmc/g in parrot's fib.pir 17:58
for a fair comparison
hejki rakudo: my $str = "foo10bar"; $str ~~ /(\D+)(\d+)/; say "$1.int " ~ $1.Int; $str ~~ /(\D+)(\d+)?/; say "$1.int " ~ $1.Int;
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 10.int 10␤10.int 1␤
diakopter ah, ok. what low-level types should _fib be able to coerce from?
moritz_ from whatever you pass to it.
hejki rakudo: my $str = "foo10000bar"; $str ~~ /(\D+)(\d+)/; say "$1.int " ~ $1.Int; $str ~~ /(\D+)(\d+)?/; say "$1.int " ~ $1.Int; 17:59
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 10000.int 10000␤10000.int 1␤
diakopter right, I mean, which ones would you like to be able to handley? I mean, you can't send in just any PMC and expect it to coerce to Additive (or whatever)
hejki say .WHAT ~ " and why? :<"
diakopter obviously string...
moritz_ diakopter: I don't really care, because the actually coercion will be carried out only in the first call 18:00
diakopter then how would it be a microbenchmark that tests anything?
moritz_ what I care about is that at every recursion step it has to *potentially* coerce to num, and has to dispatch at run time according to the actual type 18:01
diakopter ah, ok; lemme try that
moritz_ so that it would work if you define a new number type, which its own overridden + operator
diakopter moritz_: should fib always return an int? 18:02
moritz_ no
diakopter ok
hejki odd that passive grouping makes it Str 18:03
rakudo: my $str = "foo10000bar"; $str ~~ /(\D+)(\d+)/; say "$1.int " ~ $1.Int; $str ~~ m:P5/(\D+)(\d+)?/; say "$1.int " ~ $1.Int; 18:04
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 10000.int 10000␤10000.int 10000␤
hejki :>
diakopter moritz_: I suspect I'll need help making fib_pmc.pir work... replacing all the int with pmc made a breakageness
moritz_ hejki: I don't quite understand what you expect 18:05
but maybe I can guess
dalek kudo/ng: 666896b | pmichaud++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Revert "try {} should not catch control exceptions"

it was causing lots of spectests to fail in the ng branch.
hejki well it was dwimmy ;> 18:06
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moritz_ rakudo: '234' ~~ /(\d+)?/; say +$0 18:06
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 1␤
moritz_ that's because quantifying the capture makes $0 an array
rakudo: '234' ~~ /(\d+)?/; say +$0[0]
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 234␤
moritz_ diakopter: ok, will try to help later 18:07
diakopter moritz_: do you have any other suggestions on how to make fib.pir do the dynamic checking you're imagining
oh
18:08 rgrau left
moritz_ have to make a few phone calls (and dinner) first 18:08
diakopter moritz_: I think I got it
the fib_pmc.pir takes 1.25x as long as fib.pir 18:09
hejki moritz_: ahh ok 18:10
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colomon what's the way of telling if a key is a hash in Rakudo master? 18:15
moritz_ diakopter: actually I expected a slightly larger impact
Tene Oh, great, this is going to require a parrot patch to fix at all, and a bigger parrot patch to not be horrible for the future. 18:16
moritz_ hash keys are always strings, in rakudo
colomon Tene: you mean the try thing?
Tene Yes.
colomon s/if a key is a hash/if a key is IN a hash/
moritz_ rakudo: say %*ENV.exists('HOME') 18:17
colomon :exists doesn't work, right?
p6eval rakudo 55f51d: 1␤
colomon danke.
moritz_++
moritz_ it's non-spec cheating though :-)
Tene and... that doesn't work either. Dunno why. Kinda creepy. 18:19
Oh, there it is... 18:20
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hejki inspired by the earlier dice-stuff and utter boredom i made a simple stuff for rolling any dice n amount of times (in case someone has some usage oslt :)) git.mehtanen.fi/git.cgi?page=anydic...le=anydice 18:27
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masak hejki: nice. 18:39
hejki: let's see, did you try to use MAIN with that?
hejki ye
masak did you try it without the named parameter?
I think that could work. 18:40
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hejki nope 18:41
masak oh. 18:42
too bad. :/
MAIN is pretty nice when it works.
hejki ye
masak anyway, hejki++.
hejki ^_^ 18:43
masak hejki: it works here, though: gist.github.com/258056 18:44
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Tene ~[5~[5~[6~[6~[6~[6~ 18:46
hejki hmm.. 18:48
wonder how i can set my own sub for the "Not enough positional parameters passed" error :) 18:49
to print out usage from sub MAIN
masak hejki: IIRC, usage is spec'd to be autogenerated from the params.
hejki: definitely not in Rakudo yet, though.
hejki ohye 18:50
:>
masak no-one has mentioned today's Pugs release, so I'll just mention it.
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colomon masak: say what? 18:50
masak it's just an upgrade to GHC 6.12.1
but still :)
I find those releases don't get much press around here.
moritz_ I think that's intentional 18:51
colomon someone's maintaining pugs enough to bump it to the latest GHC? That's great!
diakopter moritz_: ok, I have a fib_ with this signature:
moritz_: ok, I have a fib_ with this signature: public static int AddTo (this int left, int right) {
return left + right;
er
hejki updated :)
diakopter public static int AddTo (this int left, int right) {
masak diakopter: 'this int'?
diakopter oh wait
wrong paste
masak I'll say :) 18:52
diakopter static object _fib (object n)
does a type check with every invocation
(at least 1, more if necessary)
moritz_ and then a run-time dispatch to +? 18:54
diakopter yep
(based on that type check)
I home-spun my own PIC
of sorts.
well, it prespecializes + and < using generics 18:55
and calls those after coercing
but, per your requirement, it does the reflection-style type-check with every call
moritz_ so, how fast is it?
diakopter (and subsequent casting, if necessary)
about 1000x slower than it was previously
but still 13x faster than parrot 18:56
sorry, 16x faster than fib_pmc, and 13x faster than fib 18:57
here's the code
moritz_ *drumrolls* 18:58
diakopter parrot.pastebin.com/d5900184c
to make it easier to look at (it would compile effectively to the same thing), I could make _fib an extension method also 19:00
(so that the type check wouldn't be expressed in an if statement)
moritz_ looks roughly as I expected
diakopter in case you (or anyone) weren't (wasn't) aware, C# Extension methods are resolved at compile time... 19:01
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moritz_ doesn't even speak C# 19:03
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diakopter think of extension methods as just tricky global functions that are overloaded on all their arg types (including invocant) 19:04
letting it stringify and then parse to double with *every* call makes it 3x slower than parrot 19:05
that's a lot of stringification and parsing
moritz_ that's hardly a fair comparison
with forced stringification
diakopter i know :P
I mean
makes it 3x slower than fib_pmc as it is (without making parrot stringify/parse) 19:06
moritz_ diakopter: can you remove the special case for int and float, and always dispatch to AddTo? (and install these methods in the int and float types)
diakopter ah... I see what you're saying, one sec
moritz_ (not sure if it makes the comparison any more fair, just curious what the result is) 19:07
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diakopter it still has to do the type check and then cast to those types... 19:12
moritz_ diakopter: I think you now know why the parrot people weren't all that impressed when you told them that fib.pir is slow compared to the mono version
diakopter no 19:13
b/c I wanted to test primitive operations
I didn't want to test how well C#/mono could perform at pushing a dynamic object model down into the assembly language 19:14
I wanted to compare how well PASM/PIR could perform as assembly languages for things marked as strongly typed 19:15
(int, not pmc)
I mean, Perl 6 isn't PASM :P
and won't be written in PASM
moritz_ right 19:16
diakopter all the object models don't have to be at the same (bottom) layer
moritz_ but you'll be hard pressed to actually compile Perl 6 operations down to primitive types
diakopter right, but that's not what I'm suggesting
moritz_ even though I wish it were easy :-)
diakopter I wasn't comparing Perl 6 source code to C# source code
moritz_ I see your point
diakopter I was comparing them as assembly/target languages 19:17
moritz_ I just think that most parrot developers are aware that that's not what parrot is optimized for (if it's optimized for anything at all :-)
(and yes, I agree that parrot should be much faster :-) 19:18
diakopter yeah. but (possibly) what I'm suggesting is that forcing a dynamic object model into the lowest assembly language isn't as efficient as having one (or more) layers of indirection, if those layers of indirection are sufficiently [more] efficient than the all-in-one object model 19:19
where by "suggesting" I mean "suspecting" :)
PerlJam diakopter: Also if those layers give us more opportunity for optimization. 19:20
masak intriguing.
PerlJam (or is that what you're really saying?)
moritz_ parrot tries to fill this gap by allowing C code. Not sure if that's the right way to go
diakopter PerlJam: yes, is by "us" you mean optimizing compilers with person-millenia of work behind them 19:21
taking nqp-rx as an example
stage0.pir, stage1.pir 19:22
if I'm not mistaken, nearly everything in those programs is being used as strongly typed
and gotos/labels 19:23
here's my thought (more) 19:24
having them in .pir (as opposed to C) merely gives them independence from gcc, right? 19:25
(runtime code generation/compiling/loading)
(without depending on gcc) 19:26
following that line of thinking, CIL (Common Intermediate Language) (what mono compiles to before it compiles to machine code) is the assembly language I was comparing to PASM/PIR
but mono (and of course the clr) has the same dynamic assembly language generation/compiling/loading capabilities as parrot 19:27
yes, in a dynamic language (unless you can infer/work out more specific types than how they're marked in the user source code) all the primitives types will be boxed and dynamically dispatched 19:29
but that doesn't mean that you can't also have efficient primitive types
(so that's what I was comparing, parrot's primitive strongly typed variables vs mono's) 19:30
</soapbox>
so, if mono is 10-20x (and in some cases 100-1000x) faster than parrot in operations on those primitive types (and invocations, not to mention GC and JIT), and if a Perl 6 impl is going to be compiling to *any* kind of assembly language, then that Perl 6 impl should consider using a VM/compiler that has reasonably efficient primitive types, not one where stringops are slower than in Perl 5 19:36
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PerlJam diakopter: sure ... except that someone has already written the underlying pieces that Rakudo uses in Parrot. :) 19:40
It would be interesting to see the PAST/POST/etc. stuff target some other VM though. 19:41
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diakopter it's not as much of a sunk cost as you might think, I'd like to suggest 19:42
masak I just want my Perl 6 to be fast.
if Parrot doesn't get me there first, so be it.
diakopter I mean
masak we don't know exactly what the right formula is. that's why we're doing this flood-fill thing with Perl 6 implementations.
PerlJam diakopter: I agree it's probably not that much of a sunk cost, but someone still has to do the work.
diakopter it *is* more of a sunk cost than you might think, I'd like to suggest <frown>
colomon I'm with masak. Perl 6 is an awesome design, but it needs to be 100x faster (at least) to be reasonably useful, IMO. 19:43
diakopter (sorry, confusion of terms)
PerlJam: yeah :/
PerlJam colomon: 100x faster? really? Are you sure? 19:44
diakopter PerlJam: I'm working on that
colomon has to admit that a fully .NET compatible would be pretty damn useful for his $work.
diakopter ... I agree with colomon.. at least 100x faster
colomon PerlJam: yes.
diakopter wel
colomon Anything that iterates is dead dog slow in Rakudo.
diakopter "feeling" 100x "more responsive", let's say :)
PerlJam I think it would be "reasonably useful" at 10x faster.
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PerlJam 100x faster would be more like "awesomely useful" 19:45
colomon right now I'm pretty sure there are pretty common cases where Perl 5 is 1000x faster than Rakudo.
masak nod.
but Perl 5 is impressively fast in places.
PerlJam colomon: great! Where are the benchmarks so we can put them into the repo?
19:46 payload left
diakopter I didn't know that rakudo had benchmark comparisons 19:46
colomon PerlJam: I don't have time to put them together at the moment, but if you seriously think it's a good idea to have them, it won't be a problem at all next time I have some spare tuits...
PerlJam colomon: I do think it's a good idea to keep benchmarks around so that we can know how (if) we are progressing when we attempt optimization. 19:47
diakopter try some pathological grammar patterns :)
colomon I haven't tested it, but I'd be willing to bet a beer than a straightforward word count script is 1000x faster in p5 than Rakudo.
at least on a reasonable length file. 19:48
though come to think of it, given the current seg fault issues in Rakudo, it may be hard to see the full extent of the slow down.
PerlJam fails in "eating without making a mess" 19:49
diakopter (note: I am certainly *not* saying that mono (or ocaml or V8 or ghc) was as capable/reliable 7-8 years ago) 19:51
existent/capable/reliable 19:52
it's just had probably a few hundred times as many resources/attention
moritz_ sorry, got distracted by distressing phone call 19:53
moritz_ backlogs
colomon BTW, to be fair, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Rakudo can get 100x boost in the next six months. I'm not down on Parrot, I just want to be able to stop making excuses for why Rakudo is so slow. 19:54
PerlJam moritz_: I hope your phone call ended with the distress gone. 19:59
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dalek kudo/ng: 2b58163 | pmichaud++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
Bump PARROT_REVISION to latest Parrot release.
 20:00
moritz_ PerlJam: not quite :/
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colomon masak: I've already done your #71364 in ng, but it could still use a spectest... ;) 20:07
masak colomon: if I can't open ng tickets, you're not allowed to close them either. :P 20:08
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pmichaud phone 20:10
pugs_svn r29348 | moritz++ | [t/spec] tests for RT #71364, and that === works on Rats 20:14
colomon moritz_++ # indeed!
Let me guess, that was in rat.t? 20:15
moritz_ yes
colomon whoops, was cynical coz I thought rat.t wasn't turned on, but actually it's on and now broken, at least on my machine. 20:17
Confused at line 239, near "ok 1/2 !==" 20:18
moritz_ it's turned on? 20:20
I thought it wasn't
because it didn't pass
colomon I thought it wasn't too, but it just ran in my spectest and died. 20:21
moritz_ dies after test 22
even with the new test fudged
pugs_svn r29349 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fudge new test in rat.t, moritz-- 20:22
colomon WIth that fudge, I get "you failed 1 tests of 791" 20:23
Rat.Rat isn't actually a
}Rat?
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colomon ng: say 1/2.Rat.WHAT 20:25
p6eval ng 2b5816: Rat()␤
moritz_ stupid
colomon broken test. :)
moritz_ that's because ng dies for me after test 22
I don't even get that far
pugs_svn r29350 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fix test in rat.t. moritz-- again, colomon++ 20:26
colomon "All tests successfull"! moritz_++ 20:27
moritz_ colomon: do you have local modifications to that file? or to rakudo?
colomon yes, but none that affect that. 20:28
what failure are you getting? I'm guessing it's just the roving seg fault... 20:29
moritz_ Divide by zero
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colomon orly? 20:30
moritz_ curses his bad internet connection
colomon which test?
moritz_ after 22
dies_ok( { Rat.new(0, 0) }, "Zero over zero is not a legal Rat"); 20:31
wait
colomon yeah
moritz_ maybe I didn't pull pmichaud's changes
colomon but it should have been working before them...
Tene pmichaud: thanks for reverting my bad try patch.
colomon ng: say Rat.new(0, 0)
p6eval ng 2b5816: Divide by zero␤current instr.: '&infix:<div>' pc 201647 (src/gen/core.pir:6101)␤
moritz_ not if dies_ok died
ng: try { Rat.new(0, 0) }
p6eval ng 2b5816: ( no output )
colomon right, you don't hav Tene's patch reverted. 20:32
PerlJam ng: 0.0.perl.say
p6eval ng 2b5816: 0/1␤
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chromatic How does Rakudo trunk fare against Parrot head? 20:39
masak checks 20:40
PerlJam isn't sure what chromatic really means
masak PerlJam: 'trunk' is an SVN term for 'master' :P
moritz_ chromatic: it builds against the released version of parrot here 20:41
chromatic "Trunk" means "not the -ng branch".
PerlJam ah, good.
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PerlJam It sounded like you were after the latest rakudo against the latest parrot 20:41
pm updated the PARROT_REVISION to be the latest release version of Parrot even 20:42
moritz_ in ng, yes
PerlJam blah. I could have sworn that was master 20:43
moritz_ maybe I'm wrong
colomon nope, it was ng.
PerlJam no, I just checked :)
colomon surely I'm not the only one with a github ng commit history tab in his browser? ;) 20:44
PerlJam doesn't typically look at git repo history via a web browser
chromatic I ask because I'm doing a release dry run. 20:45
colomon but how can you quickly tell if anyone else has been hacking on ng? :)
PerlJam colomon: I assume it is so and I am right ;)
moritz_ colomon: git log 20:46
colomon moritz_: don't you need to pull to get an up-to-date log?
[particle] what rolls down stairs, alone or in pairs?
moritz_ colomon: you need to fetch
(or pull)
PerlJam colomon: sure, but I always pull before doing anything anyway :) 20:47
moritz_ chromatic: you'll probably need to remove two or three files from t/spectest.data for the release
chromatic Is it better to build against Parrot HEAD or 1.9.0?
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moritz_ 1.9.0 20:48
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PerlJam Rakudo release should always be against the latest Parrot release. 20:48
chromatic I'll make sure to do that tomorrow. 20:49
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PerlJam chromatic: just checking ... you are reading docs/release_guide.pod, yes? 20:49
chromatic Yes.
moritz_ chromatic: due to large changes in spec and spectets, rakudo/master is currently frozen to a particular revision of the spectests 20:50
chromatic: so if tests fail, it's no good to fudge them in the test suite, but you have to comment them out from t/spectest.data
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PerlJam chromatic: what "code name" are you going to give your release? 20:51
chromatic Should I commit those changes?
moritz_ chromatic: yes
chromatic I like Seoul.pm, because I think they have cake ducks there. 20:52
PerlJam chromatic: commit them for the release, then revert the commits afterwards
PerlJam would never conceive to put the words "cake" and "duck" together
diakopter wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Soul_Cake_Duck 20:53
colomon "The Soul Cake Duck is rumored to be paranoid beyond sanity and generally in a very bad mood." Awesome. 20:55
chromatic Alright, here's an update to PARROT_REVISION.
masak PerlJam: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguification
PerlJam Perl 6 linguifies words into a good soup. 20:56
masak :)
I never thought I'd see "Perl 6" next to "linguifies". :P 20:57
jnthn fwiw, it may be that Rakudo master needs a patch to build against latest Parrot; I'm sure I had to chase a Parrot breakage in ng at some point recently, but didn't patch master.
masak or "Perl 6" in the same sentence as "soup"...
diakopter masak: oh, the irony
dalek kudo/master: 98b3f18 | chromatic++ | build/PARROT_REVISION:
Updated PARROT_REVISION for Parrot release 1.9.0.
PerlJam masak: It's all par for the course on #perl6 :) 20:58
masak PerlJam: yes. I'm just kidding around.
PerlJam (especially when that TimToady guy is around ;-)
diakopter (speaking of golfing)
masak PerlJam: yeah, who invited that guy? :P
PerlJam bates his breath in anticipation of diakopter's offering 21:00
diakopter wait, what? 21:03
diakopter confused
I usually can only pick up that puns are being made, not the actual joke behind the puns
(speaking of speaking of speaking of linguification) 21:04
masak those kinds of jokes are so common that they should have a name.
maybe 'autopuns'? 21:05
"we're all eager to get lazy lists" is an autopun, for example. even though it has a determinant of -1. :P
PerlJam autopun sounds like a good word to me
masak let's see how long it takes until someone makes an autopun about autopuns! 21:06
oh wait.
diakopter punners are punnier when their names are punned upon for pun 21:07
wayland76 I may've used this before, but: If I were ever pun-i-shed / for every pun I shed / I'd run and find a punny shed / and there I'd hang my punnish head :) 21:09
masak wayland76++ # puns with sheds
pmichaud back again 21:10
sorta
wayland76 Now I'm confused by the difference between an autopun and a pun. 21:13
Tene wayland76: you don't need to worry about the difference. it'll take care of itself. 21:14
masak wayland76: let's see. a pun is a joke on words. an autopun isn't necessarily a pun, but needs to make an implicit joke which exhibits the property joked about. 21:15
wayland76: example: "they told be these pills would make me stronger, but I'm unable to open the jar."
(I apologise profusely for that one.)
wayland76 Ok, but how is "we're all eager to get lazy lists" not a pun then? 21:17
chromatic t/spec/S02-lexical-conventions/unicode.rakudo, t/spec/S03-junctions/associative.t, t/spec/S03-junctions/autothreading.rakudo, t/spec/S06-other/main-eval.t, and t/spec/S12-class/basic.rakudo all have failures for me. 21:18
masak wayland76: that one is a pun, too. the one about the pills isn't.
but both are autopuns.
colomon chromatic: that list sounds right to me. 21:19
wayland76 ok. "Autopuns" is a superset of "puns"? Or an overlapping category? I was assuming that "autopun" would be a subset of "pun"
masak overlapping category. 21:20
chromatic How likely is it that any of those will get fixed in the next 24 hours?
masak wayland76: which leads me to think that the term might not be the best one.
wayland76: it's more of a self-referent joke-oid.
wayland76 autojoke? 21:21
masak yes, except it's not about cars. :)
wayland76 Yeah, or automatic anything.
Tene masak: and if my car tells jokes about cars?
masak Tene: then you should probably see a mechanic. :P 21:22
wayland76 well, you carn't let it do that :)
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chromatic How do I find out how many spectests pass now? 21:25
Should I skip the failures right now or wait? 21:26
I'm working on the release announcement.
Also, why is Seoul.pm on the list of candidates?
masak chromatic: I'm running the spectests right now.
chromatic Thanks!
masak pmichaud: might know about Seoul.pm.
s/://
Tene jnthn visited Seoul.pm iirc 21:28
masak oh, right!
he left blazing trails in the twitterverse, without a twitter account :)
chromatic "for feeding Jonathan rotten, left over cabbage and he liked it." 21:29
moritz_ chromatic: probably because of some hackathon or conference
21:29 moritz_ sets mode: +ooo chromatic masak wayland76
moritz_ chromatic: and skipping failures now is fine 21:29
masak \+o/
chromatic Alright, I'll try to figure out the easy way to do that. 21:30
No fudging, right?
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pmichaud commenting items out of spectest.data is fine 21:30
21:30 patspam left
colomon chromatic: no fudging, right. 21:30
moritz_ chromatic: and once you've done that, perl tools/test_summary.pl 21:31
chromatic Some of this should go in docs/release_guide.pod.
Or I should read and not skim. 21:32
pmichaud tools/test_summary.pl gives an idea of the size of the test suite and the number of passing tests
moritz_ the no-fudging thing is specific to this release
chromatic Right, I figured the -ng branch made things weird. 21:33
pmichaud but I'll be updating docs/spectest-progress.csv around 01:00 CST tonight, and it's okay to use that number
jnthn chromatic: Hey, the pork was good too! :-P
pmichaud (I usually update the release announcement at that time also)
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jnthn chromatic: Did a patch from ng get cherrypicked? If not, I fear there may be a build problem on Win32... 21:34
chromatic: Will check.
It may also fix the autothreading fial.
*fail
chromatic I'll fill out everything I need now and can fill in more details tomorrow... unless it's easier to wait. 21:35
pmichaud fill out now and more tomorrow tends to work well
other elves often add more things once it's been started
moritz_ chromatic: if you stub in a release announcement I'll add some deprecation notices
chromatic I haven't paid attention to new features and such. I'll commit now with spaces for numbers and specifics. 21:36
pmichaud that's a good approach
I'm planning to update it with my views of features and such
moritz_ there weren't many new features in master since the last release
pmichaud (that's my normal release-date-activity)
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dalek kudo/master: 26251f5 | chromatic++ | docs/announce/2009-12:
Added initial release announcement, with obvious places for additions.
 21:37
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dalek kudo/master: 34895f9 | moritz++ | docs/announce/2009-12:
[docs] deprecation notcies for release: Object -> Mu, undef is gone
 21:49
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jnthn chromatic: master is broken on Win32 22:15
chromatic: This is the ng patch:
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/8d1...fe0d893046
It'll fix autothreading test breakage too, I expect. 22:16
masak chromatic: spectest run summary: gist.github.com/258236
chromatic Autothreading everywhere, or only Win32?
jnthn chromatic: everywhere.
chromatic: Actually, I am utterly bewildered still at why the build works for anyone.
chromatic Clean living.
jnthn chromatic: since the error is 22:17
perl6_ops.obj : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol _GETATTR_CallSignature
_results
chromatic Oh yes, I wondered at that error too.
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jnthn Yeah. I dunno how we get away with it on other platforms. 22:18
chromatic Hm, I'm not sure I have the branch pulled here.
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jnthn I'm not quite sure how you cherry pick commits from one to another anyway 22:18
You'll have it as origin/ng at least, I suspect. 22:19
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Tene git cherry-pick <commit-id> 22:19
jnthn heh, then just git cherry-pick 8d154158b0ac001c349fb3d3756c7bfe0d893046 then :-) 22:20
chromatic That worked.
jnthn yay
chromatic ... after git fetch upstream.
jnthn chromatic++
frettled Hey, maybe Win32 is dead when Rakudo * is released? :D 22:22
*hope hope hope*
chromatic Testing the autothreading test now. 22:23
Certainly there are fewer build warnings.
masak you know, you don't *need* to write all 40 chars of the SHA-1 :) 22:24
Tene masak: easier to copy/paste the entire thing than just the first part 22:25
double-click vs click+drag+choose-when-to-stop 22:26
masak fair enough.
chromatic Hmm, this is weird. 22:27
$ git push upstream master
To [email@hidden.address]
! [rejected] master -> master (non-fast forward)
error: failed to push some refs to [email@hidden.address]
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masak chromatic: that happens when your repo isn't a descendent of upstream. you need to pull or something. 22:29
chromatic That looks better. 22:30
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masak see y'all tomorrow, #perl6. 22:30
22:30 masak left
moritz_ good night 22:30
jnthn yup, that fixes the Win32 build 22:32
Well
it doesn't break at that point
Should be fine though.
dalek kudo/master: 036536a | jnthn++ | src/ops/perl6.ops:
Chase a Parrot change that broke our junction auto-threading code.
 22:34
kudo/master: c4b4110 | chromatic++ | t/spectest.data:
Skipped a few tests which don't pass with Parrot 1.9.0; will revert after the
kudo/master: 73c4a80 | chromatic++ | docs/announce/2009-12:
Merge branch 'master' of [email@hidden.address]
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pmurias diakopter: the hard part with getting good performance is that you have to infer when to unwrap primitives 22:45
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supernovus I have a small question. I know wantarray was originally to be replaced by want but that eventually want was killed off entirely. What replaces it? By that I mean, if I have a method that can return either a scalar value or a list, how would I go about doing that? 22:57
IllvilJa does rakudo have any debugger mode?
diakopter pmurias: yes, but, (again) I wasn't testing anything like that 22:58
I was testing the primitives
moritz_ supernovus: the method returns an object that does the right thing in either context
diakopter I wasn't testing dynamicness/boxing/dispatching
supernovus I think that's where I'm having problems, is making an object that works as an array. 23:00
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moritz_ supernovus: list context works by calling the List method on that object 23:01
supernovus: so you can create an object that return a list when the List method is called
supernovus Interesting, I tried just that, but for some reason, it still returns the results of the Str method instead of the List method. 23:03
wayland76 supernovus: Can you nopaste your code that calls it? 23:05
moritz_ supernovus: it might not be well implemented in Rakudo right now 23:07
supernovus That may be the case. I have pasted my example class and the script that calls it. 23:08
one change is that I have changed Array to List in the class.
dalek kudo/master: 1d44f48 | chromatic++ | src/ops/perl6.ops:
[ops] Fixed a C++ compilation warning with an appropriate typedef.
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moritz_ oh noez, postfix:<*> 23:16
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moritz_ if that gets added, we'll rename Perl 6 to "Star Language" 23:18
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colomon Can unicode add a line over a variable name? 23:19
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moritz_ U+0305 COMBINING OVERLINE 23:20
don't even think of it :-)
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colomon But that's what he wants! postfix:<*> is just an awkward compromise... :) 23:21
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moritz_ postfix:<*> is the death star 23:21
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diakopter .u .. 23:27
phenny U+0020 SPACE ( )
U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK (!)
U+0022 QUOTATION MARK (") [...]
diakopter boom
wayland76 .u.. 23:28
.u ..
phenny U+0020 SPACE ( )
U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK (!)
U+0022 QUOTATION MARK (") [...]
diakopter .u /e
phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results
diakopter .u .8
phenny U+2880 BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-8 (⢀)
U+2881 BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-18 (⢁)
U+2882 BRAILLE PATTERN DOTS-28 (⢂) [...]
Tene .u ☕
wayland76 .u fe
phenny U+2615 HOT BEVERAGE (☕)
U+134D ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE FE (ፍ)
Tene .u snowman
phenny U+2603 SNOWMAN (☃)
diakopter .u ' ' 23:29
phenny U+0027 APOSTROPHE (')
U+0020 SPACE ( )
U+0027 APOSTROPHE (')
diakopter oh
moritz_ .u mygod
phenny moritz_: Sorry, no results for 'mygod'.
diakopter .u bb
phenny U+A058 YI SYLLABLE BBI (ꁘ)
Tene .u .u .u
phenny U+0FBE TIBETAN KU RU KHA (྾)
wayland76 phenny thinks you're an atheist :)
phenny U+0FBF TIBETAN KU RU KHA BZHI MIG CAN (྿)
U+1809 MONGOLIAN MANCHU FULL STOP (᠉) [...]
diakopter squints
moritz_ heads off to bed 23:30
diakopter too small font
moritz_ good night #perl6
diakopter g'nite
Tene good night.
colomon 'night
supernovus good night
diakopter .u &&
phenny U+0026 AMPERSAND (&)
diakopter .u 0a
phenny diakopter: Sorry, no results for '0a'.
wayland76 .u .u .u What begins with .u? five flying .u dders and an .u gly .u nittoo
phenny wayland76: Sorry, no results
wayland76 phenny doesn't know Dr. Seuss :) 23:31
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diakopter .u YY 23:31
supernovus .u ¢
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