»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo: / pugs: / std: , or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by wolfe.freenode.net on 30 October 2009.
diakopter hears a pin drop 00:02
mberends perl6: ping
p6eval elf 29447: Undefined subroutine &GLOBAL::ping called at (eval 122) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤ 00:03
..rakudo db84bc: Could not find non-existent sub ping␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
..pugs: *** No such subroutine: "&ping"␤ at /tmp/gBhITzikJ4 line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤
diakopter "everytime you hear a pin drop, an angel^W announcement of a skunkworks project is forthcoming/imminent"
mberends that'll be the Rekudo ng branch about to become master 00:04
*Rakudo 00:05
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mberends pmurias: when building mildew, I missed a README. You once questioned the usefulness of a README file somewhere, was that for Mildew or for JavaScripdt::V8? I'm quite happy to create a mildew README if you're not opposed. 00:10
pmurias mberends: having a README for Mildew would be great 00:13
mberends: i questioned the usefulness of README for CPAN module which are installed using the CPAN client
mberends pmurias: ok, it will start small, we can expand it gradually 00:14
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ewilhelm anybody have input on what exactly PAUSE/CPAN needs to do to support the Perl 6 module system/semantics? 02:40
diakopter ewilhelm: it's a big question to some, a smaller question to others. 02:42
it depends a lot on the implementation
ewilhelm it's currently being hashed-out by a bunch of the people who could do something about it but aren't sure what p6 needs
www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.w...sg639.html 02:43
diakopter ewilhelm: parrot has its own dependency system/installer 02:44
gitorious.org/parrot-plumage
ewilhelm on the PAUSE/CPAN side of things, we're only talking about somewhere to upload tarballs and some kind of indexing ala 02packages.details.txt.gz 02:45
diakopter strictly speaking, all of these fields should be present in an index: perlcabal.org/syn/S11.html#Versioning 02:46
the "long name" there defines the namespace 02:47
the "cpan:" authority is reserved for (of course), cpan 02:48
ewilhelm so, just name+version+author, right?
diakopter name+version+auth (where "auth" is intentionally ambiguous between "authority" and "author") 02:49
ewilhelm but that's actually just the long index (equivalent to `ls -R`) 02:50
doesn't it needs some kind of short index for "the default for Foo"?
diakopter that's for the dependency/installer system to work out 02:51
ewilhelm which is more equivalent to the current 02packages.details.txt.gz -- namespaces mapped to author+version
Really? There's nothing in the spec for that?
diakopter yes, it defines the compile-time behavior, but not the install-time 02:52
ewilhelm so what is the wildcard resolution order for "use Dog:auth(Any):ver(Any);" and who decides that? 02:53
diakopter install-time, it's presumably dependent on the installer/packager settings 02:55
ewilhelm "the version lineage that was created first wins" -- by date? "officially abandoned lineage" -- what's official?
diakopter ctime on disk, I guess 02:56
ewilhelm wow that's going to give redhat enough rope to hang us all
diakopter sure, the packagers/distributors get to define their own policies
what it does is set cpan's repo (and everyone's github/gitorious/googlecode/sourceforge/codeplex repos) at the same level as the system distributors/packagers 02:57
ewilhelm so does PAUSE need to keep track of namespace ownership at all? 02:58
Tene Man, I haven't seen pm online in ages. Hope he's having good holidays. :)
diakopter ewilhelm: yes, because those represent who owns that package in the "cpan" auth
the actual author's name/id isn't in the authority 02:59
ewilhelm ok, so if you ask "a repository" for "the" Dog module, whoever owns that namespace *in that repo* is the one you get?
diakopter so, an "unauthorized release" would have the auth "cpan_EWILHELM"
or something 03:00
yeah
anyone else _please_ correct me where I'm wrong... I haven't seen these issues talked through here for years...
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diakopter ewilhelm: does that seem workable to you? 03:01
ewilhelm I think so. 03:02
diakopter oh wait 03:03
after reading S11 again...
I was mostly right
ewilhelm sounds like we need 1) upload tool which detects p6 tarball + a place to put it, 2) a p6 "short" index of ownership per namespace (ala 02packages), and 3) a p6 "big" index of everything available
diakopter it would be auth<cpan:EWILHELM> for every release including unauthorized ones 03:04
but auth<cpan:$$some_flag_meaning_namespace_owner$$> for the officially owned release
I'm curious; why wouldn't the current system "just work"? 03:05
ewilhelm sure. That's still compatible with 1,2,3 --^, right?
because ownership per namespace is p5 ownership 03:06
so rjbs owns Config::INI and thus Ovid can't upload his p6 tarball until we settle this
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diakopter hm 03:06
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diakopter my first reaction is not to allow the duplicate names 03:07
ewilhelm but, it's looking very much like "just" making an empty copy of the current system and filling it in with p6 data
diakopter (in order to avoid branching the whole system) 03:08
ewilhelm well, that's going to make lots of people nonhappy
diakopter well, there aren't going to be distributions that work in *both*
ewilhelm how is Perl 6 supposed to handle the case of loading a p5/ruby/whatever module where there's multiple instances of the same name installed? 03:09
diakopter so there's either an implied "P6::" in front of that whole namespace, or you have to fork the whole system
ewilhelm we can't prevent naming overlap in the rest of the language world anyway
Tene ewilhelm: imported symbols are lexically scoped. 03:10
diakopter to import from other languages requires another qualifier
Tene So if I import Foo:from<ruby>; then Foo in that lexical scope refers to ruby's Foo.
ewilhelm Tene, no, oh :from<ruby> is news to me 03:11
Tene Loading p5 modules is :from<perl5>, iirc
diakopter same from perl5, yes
ewilhelm diakopter, there you have it
we have an implied sort of "P5::"/"P6::" everywhere already 03:12
diakopter yes, but, if you placed an invisible P6_flag_something:: in front of all the Perl6 uploads, you could use the current system without branching/duplicating everything
ewilhelm it's not really "fork the whole system" on the PAUSE pov, more like analogous to "mkdir p6; chdir p6; and start another daemon" 03:13
diakopter (obviously the Perl 6 tools would know not to display that prefix)
yeah, but I'm referring to all the other web tools
ewilhelm that is, the upload tool will (probably) be the same page and just detect p6-ness inside the tarball, then stick it in the p6/ directory on the mirrors and index it accordingly 03:14
but it will be a whole new index
diakopter if I were you, I'd keep it in the same one with a hidden prefix, since it would require modifying a lot fewer toolchains, imho 03:15
ewilhelm not sure about that 03:16
you can't use the CPAN.pm to install p6 code anyway
diakopter b/c the existing cpan could be used to resolve/install dependencies.
sure you could
ewilhelm You've read the code? 03:17
so without :from<perl5>, you get "module not found" if there's a p5 Foo.pm and no p6 one? 03:18
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diakopter "the code"? I don't see why a perl6 code distribution couldn't use a p6 Makefile.PL 03:18
p6 Makefile.PL, I mean
Tene Hmm. I *do* remember that there's part of the spec about how to distinguish between p5 and p6...
diakopter omg. 03:19
I can't type p5 Makefile.PL
ewilhelm: answer to your last question, seems right to me, yes
my attitude/goal would be to try to reuse (and continue to use) as much of the existing toolchain as possible 03:21
but I'm sure others have different priorities.
ewilhelm re the index: putting p6 tarballs in 02packages is definitely going to explode for people running old CPAN.pm's
but there's no reason a new CPAN.pm couldn't fetch a second index file for p6 and DTRT with it 03:22
diakopter some folks even talk about having a Perl 6 implementation, an installation of which is not dependent on a Perl 5 installation. I can't imagine that ever happening, so I focus on reuse.
ah
fer instance, I imagine a world where all the Perl 6 implementations share a common Perl 5/xs package such that "use v6" in a #!/usr/bin/perl file does Devel::Declare-ish magic and swaps over to a loadable Perl 6 03:26
maybe I be dreaming. 03:32
ewilhelm: it is spec'ed that any (well, nearly all) of the pure-Perl distributions on CPAN be accessible from a Perl 6 implementation via :from<perl5> and use v5; 03:37
(probably there are some whose Perl usage won't be parseable by STD)
*reasonably* parseable, I mean.
ewilhelm I think that still means there's one index on the mirror for p5 and another for p6 03:44
diakopter ewilhelm: ah
I can see how that is functionally equivalent to the hidden prefix I was proposing. :) 03:45
(now that I read that entire thread you linked)
ewilhelm: (with the added benefit that it partitions the index, as adamk said) 03:46
ewilhelm the nntp page is currently missing my last message in reply to adam 03:48
diakopter ewilhelm: oh 03:49
ewilhelm ah, there it is: www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.w...sg657.html 03:50
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pugs_svn r29448 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] finish up geitherls and gbothls, afaict. 05:08
dalek kudo/ng: c2ba04d | tene++ | t/spectest.data:
enable fail tests
 05:16
Tene Oh, this is classy. Some part of "say" checks defined on an exception before stringifying it. 05:17
diakopter heh 05:18
makes me smile
Tene: where'd everybody go, btw...? pmichaud, jnthn, moritz_, masak, etc... it's eerily quiet.
Tene diakopter: I've been wondering that too. I assume just gone for holidays... I hope. 05:19
diakopter that or conspiratorially sekrit hackathon; either would be ok with me ;)
Tene Oh, I could throw an exception when it gets set to find out where! 05:20
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Tene ... it had better not be doing what I think it's doing... 05:22
pugs_svn r29449 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] 18 lines of explanatory comments/notes. to myself, I guess. :) 05:23
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Tene Oh, no, it's not a vivify. Good. 05:23
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pugs_svn r29450 | tene++ | Use an explicit stringify in fail.t 05:29
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Tene Okay, I think I just about have 'use fatal' working. 05:52
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pugs_svn r29451 | tene++ | Remove {} from a string and remove fudge marks for fail.t 06:23
Tene We're now passing fail.t unfudged. 06:24
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Tene {} in a double-quoted string fails badly... 06:28
ng: my $x = "try{}"; 06:29
p6eval ng c2ba04: Null PMC access in get_string()␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤
Tene someone should rakudobug that.
dalek kudo/ng: aebe139 | tene++ | src/builtins/ (2 files):
Add support for &fail throwing when $*FATAL is set
 06:30
kudo/ng: 4456d81 | tene++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Implement "use fatal" a bit hackishly
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pugs_svn r29452 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] begin implementing geitherrs, and take ++mberends suggestion to use terminology "deterministic" and "nondeterministic" instead of "stateless" and "stateful". 06:37
Tene Okay, someone should add more tests to fail.t
diakopter someone has a lot of work to do
(good thing I'm not someone!) 06:38
mberends doth someone lurketh here? 06:40
hejki *lurkeths* 06:41
mberends hark! there lurk-ed someone! 06:43
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Tene de-lurks 06:45
Okay, fine, I'll read the spec a bit more tomorrow and add more tests.
Tene afk # sleeping 06:46
mberends I actually prefer "impure" to "nondeterministic" ;-) # badger #2 06:50
diakopter but.. they're not impure 06:52
they can have side-effects
but are deterministic on their inputs 06:53
mberends arghh, you're right :)
diakopter the deterministic ones, I mean. are deterministic on their inputs. but can have side-effects.
mberends and are inlinable, as long as they're also nonrecursive 06:55
side-effects are not a blocker, nor is state
diakopter a deterministic one can't be recursive. if a rule refers to itself by name, but has no branches/alternations/backtracking, there is no exit from the recursion; it's infinite. 06:56
it's tricky to keep all the phases distinct in one's brain. 06:57
there are 4 separate compile-times here :/
mberends it's hard for me to understand most of this, let alone nit-pick it. I'll just lurk on this for a while :) 07:00
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Su-Shee good morning :) 07:43
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mberends Su-Shee: still navigating the German vocabulary in www.schreibsturm.org/antiverpeil.html (stubbornly refusing to take a machine translation) and it can be summarized in 3 English words: J(F)DI 07:51
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Su-Shee *hihi* essentially, yes :) 08:02
the german vocabulary is heavy slang and relatively long sentences, not very good to translate.
diakopter tries it 08:03
copied, printed, stapled to the wall's placed under pillows or otherwise reused
Disclaimer: I am not couch and so I take no patients 08:04
mberends the endless stream of tax returns is familiar :-( 08:05
hejki the endless stream of mandatory taxes to be paid is familiar too 08:07
Su-Shee the sentence would be "I'm not a shrink and I don't take clients" :) 08:08
we just call it "couch" due to Freud's famous one ;)
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mberends is there any Perlito documentation? wiki.perlito.org/ is empty :( 08:19
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hejki rakudo: sub foo (Int $x > 2) { say $x } foo(3); 08:47
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "> 2) { say"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
hejki rakudo: sub foo (Int $x where > 2) { say $x } foo(3);
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "where > 2)"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
hejki how-to achieve following (warning: perl5 code): sub foo { my $x = shift; return if ($x < 2); } ? 08:49
sub foo (Int $x where 3..Inf) { say $x } foo(4);
rakudo: sub foo (Int $x where 3..Inf) { say $x } foo(4);
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Confused at line 2, near "foo(4);"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
hejki rakudo: sub foo (Int $x where 3..Inf) { say $x }; foo(4); 08:50
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 4␤
hejki rakudo: sub foo (Int $x where > 2) { say $x }; foo(3);
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "where > 2)"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
spinclad rakudo: sub foo (Int $x where * > 2) { say $x }; foo(3); 08:54
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "> 2) { say"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
spinclad ng: sub foo (Int $x where * > 2) { say $x }; foo(3);
p6eval ng 4456d8: Confused at line 1, near "sub foo (I"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:328)␤
spinclad rakudo: sub foo (Int $x where {$^x > 2}) { say $x }; foo(3); 08:55
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 3␤
spinclad thinks the * > 2 one should work, eventually 08:56
hejki sure
tbh i need: PERL5!!: sub foo { my $x = shift; $x = 1 if ($x <= 2); .. }
spinclad if you need that i'd do the same sort of thing: 08:57
rakudo: sub foo (Int $x) { $x = 1 if $x <= 2; ... } 08:58
p6eval rakudo db84bc: ( no output )
hejki rakudo: sub foo (Int $x where {$^x > 2} or $x = 1) { say $x }; foo(4)
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "or $x = 1)"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
hejki :>
spinclad i don't recall a perl6 shortcut
hejki rakudo: sub foo (Int $x = 1 where {$^x > 2}) { say $x }; foo(4) 08:59
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "where {$^x"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
spinclad multi sub foo (Int $x) { $x = 1; ... }; multi foo (Int $x where * > 2) { ... }
rakudo: multi sub foo (Int $x) { $x = 1; ... }; multi foo (Int $x where * > 2) { ... } 09:00
hejki i was just gonna say i need to do it "haskell"-style :)
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Unable to parse multisig; couldn't find final ')' at line 2, near "> 2) { ..."␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
spinclad -> bed & 09:01
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hejki ty for all :> 09:05
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meneldor hello all and happy new year! 09:31
mberends likewise meneldor :)
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mathw happy 09:37
ha
mathw has first-day-back-at-work grumps
Su-Shee is looking with a first-day-of-work-feeling at the code which already didn't work last year. ;) 09:42
mathw I'm trying to deal with a bug report that concerns a subsystem I've spent the last two years trying to ignore 09:43
I guess I always suspected that would come back to haunt me
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moritz_ oh hai 10:44
mberends hi moritz_, I wish you an awesome 2010! 10:45
moritz_ mberends: same to you, kind sir!
pugs_svn r29453 | moritz++ | [t/spec] fix a test and smartlink in list_array_perl.t 10:47
r29453 |
r29453 | Also fudge the test (instead of TODO), because ng doesn't like the new form
r29453 | (though I have no idea why)
moritz_ diakopter++ # perl6.org updates 10:49
pugs_svn r29454 | moritz++ | [S05] small clarification for .match and .subst
dalek kudo/ng: 52d140e | moritz++ | src/core/Any-str.pm:
implement :g in .match
 10:51
kudo/ng: e06af48 | moritz++ | src/core/Any-str.pm:
do not limit Any.subst to regexes, for example strings are fine too
kudo/ng: fe1e749 | moritz++ | src/core/Any-str.pm:
Any.subst() is not global by default, only if :g is present
kudo/ng: 8817454 | moritz++ | lib/Safe.pm:
[Safe.pm] disallow slurp()
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colomon All sorts of ng patches overnight, \o/ !! 11:42
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Sivasakthikumar Hi 11:57
Hi 11:58
colomon hello 11:59
Sivasakthikumar yes .. I'm new in this gropu 12:00
Can u help to me How to Download and install perl 6 and Join this community 12:01
hello 12:02
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Sivasakthikumar Hello 12:03
colomon perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/0...ng-rakudo/ 12:04
Sivasakthikumar Thanks 12:05
soupdragon hi
rakudo: say (10/7).WHAT 12:06
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Rat()␤
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hejki is there something eqv to bigint? 12:29
colomon hejki: In theory, Int.
in practice, bot yet in Rakuo.
not yet in 12:30
Rakudo
hejki spelling spree ;>
soupdragon rakudo: say (2**36).WHAT 12:31
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Num()␤
soupdragon rakudo: say (2**76).WHAT
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Num()␤
hejki rakudo: say (2**76).Int.WHAT
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Int()␤
hejki :>
rakudo: say (2**2566).Int 12:32
p6eval rakudo db84bc: -9223372036854775808␤
hejki rakudo: say Inf.Int
p6eval rakudo db84bc: -9223372036854775808␤
hejki :)
rakudo: say (2**2566) 12:33
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Inf␤
hejki hmm.. mine returns a sane answer for that
guess it's the use Safe;
soupdragon rakudo use Safe.WHAT
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takadonet morning all 12:51
colomon o/
takadonet colomon: how are u? 12:52
colomon semi-awake
:)
cognominal rakudo: (grammar { token ws { \h* }; rule TOP { ^ <pair>* }; token pair { \: \w+ } } ).parse(":a :b"); say @($/<pair>) 12:54
p6eval rakudo db84bc: ( no output )
cognominal ng: (grammar { token ws { \h* }; rule TOP { ^ <pair>* }; token pair { \: \w+ } } ).parse(":a :b"); say @($/<pair>)
p6eval ng 52d140: Method 'isa' not found for invocant of class 'Undef'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Perl6;Actions;_block922' pc 142962 (src/gen/perl6-grammar.pir:29127)␤
soupdragon rakudo: say (grammar { token ws { \h* }; rule TOP { ^ <pair>* }; token pair { \: \w+ } } ).parse(":a :b");
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p6eval rakudo db84bc: ( no output ) 12:54
cognominal here it gets me only the first pair :( 12:55
colomon do you need a whitespace rule? 13:03
ie ":a:b" would work? 13:04
cognominal is not what ws is about? I tried using the default, and here, a custom one.
colomon, you are right! 13:05
colomon but you never use ws, you just define it
admittedly I am very new to grammars. :)
cognominal TOP being a rule, it should use it...
I read a lot about them but did not practice much... 13:06
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colomon maybe make it ws { \h+ } and { ^ <pair> ** <ws> } ? 13:07
that's if you want to require ws between pairs 13:08
or { ^ [ <pair> <ws>? ]* } if the ws is optional ? 13:09
cognominal indeed, quantifiers don't seem to imply interleaving <ws> in rules 13:10
I don't know if the specs are explicit about that.
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colomon I've mostly just experimented rather than reading the specs. ;) 13:11
Kodi So I submitted a tiny Rakudo patch to RT a few months ago (rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display....?id=70105) and it's gotten no responses. Is it less innocuous than I thought, or are the Rakudo folks just busy with other matters?
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colomon Kodi: most of the work has been going on in the ng branch. but I'll try to see that something happens with your patch in the next day or two. 13:14
Kodi colomon: Cool, thanks.
cognominal like says TimToady, I could advocate it both ways. But knowing him, I would not be surprised to find a third way out. Like a special adverb
Kodi colomon: So for the time being, patches should be written against ng, not master? 13:15
cognominal <pair> ** <ws> is top ugly for something that should be pretty common
colomon Kodi: ng is kind of a minefield at the moment, missing huge hunks of rakudo 13:16
Kodi: in theory, it should get caught up with and become master any week now.... 13:17
cognominal In Perl6 grammar, space separated quantified tokens don't happen. But Perl6 is special that way.
colomon cognominal: but <pair>* and <pair> ** <ws> mean very different things
cognominal colomon, the good news is with the recent discoveries, we won't need stem cells to clone Jonathan and pmichaud 13:18
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ktne hello 13:19
colomon but can we have the clones up and running next week?
ktne: hello
ktne hi
is rakudo a little bit slow at startup?
colomon yes 13:20
ktne will this ever be corrected or it's expected to be like that?
colomon it's certainly hoped it will be corrected.
ktne ok then, thanks
is there any reason why there are so many tests and spectests that are skipped? 13:21
all of them passed except the ones that have been skipped for some unknown reason
colomon it's already a goods bit better than it was six months ago (at startup)
Kodi ktne: Rakudo is still a good ways away from being complete, and the specification is still somewhat in flux. 13:22
colomon skips are tests which are expected to fail with the current implementation, ie things that still need to be done.
13:22 Baggio_ left
ktne ah 13:22
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hejki rakudo: say "sum: " ~ [+] (gather { for 2..20 -> $i { take $i if ([*] (map { $^a % $^b }, (($i) X (2..$i-1)))) != 0 } }); 13:33
p6eval rakudo db84bc: sum: 77␤
rjbs waits for the first person to report a block not working with { $^one, $^two, $^three } 13:37
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moritz_ phenny: tell masak maybe perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/perl-6-i....writeback inspires you while writing spec changes summary ... though it's very coarse and selective 13:38
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
colomon moritz_++ for ng commits, yay! 13:44
moritz_ what we have now for Any.subst won't work with closures 13:45
colomon moritz_: yes, I know. 13:49
Wasn't quite sure how to make it better...
moritz_ for regexes, .match($regex, :g) plus a map and a few substrs should be enough 13:54
but I'm hesitant to actually implement it that way
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moritz_ because it means that we need a third alternative for string pattern and replacement closures 13:55
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PerlJam good morning all 14:03
moritz_ oh hai PerlJam
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colomon o/ 14:18
colomon just remembered it takes over an hour to run spectest on master... 14:19
arnsholt Then you've got time to grab a coffee =)
moritz_ I've just got an idea
a perl6-websites mailing lists
as a central contact point for perl6.org, dev.perl.org/perl6/ and all the other Perl 6 websites whos maintainers wish to participate 14:20
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moritz_ ng doesn't build with latest parrot (due to callsignature/callcontext merge) 14:28
looks like a job for jnthn++
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Tene Maybe in my licensing email I should have just said "Consider my contributions MIT/X11 licensed, and feel free to relicense in any way you see fit." 14:31
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moritz_ and s/whatever/*/ please :-) 14:32
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mberends tries building the latest ng with Parrot r43076. it works :) 14:33
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colomon mberends: ship it! ;() 14:38
;)
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mberends colomon: :) 14:41
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colomon Just got the following comment for approval on Perl 6 Advent: 14:51
Да уж. По поводу коментариев - навеяла на меня где-то услышанная фраза: 14:52
Только наш клиент в графе “Телефон” мог написать Samsung.
Babelfish gives that as Yes already. Apropos [komentariev] - blew to me the somewhere heard phrase: Only our client in the graph “telephone” could write Samsung.
Anyone have an idea if this is a sensible comment or spam?
Grrrr it's a sensible comment, surprizingly 14:53
moritz_ colomon: we've had a few trackbacks from russian translations of our articles 14:54
Grrrr colomon: a better translation would be: 14:55
Well. About the comments, I was reminded by a phrase I've heard
somewhere: "it is only *our* client who could write 'Samsung' in
the 'Phone' field".
PerlJam colomon: I tend to go with google translate these days as it does a better job than babelfish. 14:56
mberends sarcasm seems to be a popular style in Russian 14:57
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mberends but this Russian seems to be commenting about another comment(ator), not about a posting 15:00
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mberends like writing in an application form, Length of residence in Australia: about 15 metres 15:04
colomon danke! approved, then. 15:07
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moritz_ $somebody sent me a Perl version of a C++ program I've written and published two years ago 16:12
added some fancy OO 16:13
and made it a factor 1000 slower :-)
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PerlJam moritz_: Perl 5 or Perl 6? 16:15
moritz_ PerlJam: Perl 5
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Su-Shee ugh, what kind of OO did he use?! 16:18
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moritz_ 4 method calls + parameter checks with emulated named parameters for things that were a single array access in the C++ version 16:19
4 methods that are called 50k to 100k times per second in the perl version 16:21
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szbalint looks like premature sugarification. 16:23
Su-Shee *hihi* :)
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lichtkind hello 16:27
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colomon moritz_: Now you just need to convince them to convert it to Perl 6, achieving both OO brilliance and a total 1,000,000 x slowdown. :) 16:48
diakopter :/ 16:51
obra ...why does dev.pugscode.org now redirect to audrey's github? 16:52
diakopter obra: oh
obra and how can I get at the trac history browser?
diakopter I turned it off b/c nothing (including the svn mirror) in it had been updated in a year
obra ....untrue. 16:53
diakopter oh :( ok.. i'll reactivate it now
obra I was seeing commits from that day when I looked at it a week ago :)
and audrey's github is....very out of date
diakopter ?
it's the one used to create the hackage releases, I thought
obra dev.pugscode.org shows audrey's git mirror of pugs from 2008 16:54
which isn't what I expected ;)
regardless, looking forward to it being turned back on
diakopter that should do it 16:55
obra testing 16:56
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obra hm. can't get there. 16:56
diakopter 'tis slow
obra OperationalError: database is locked
diakopter hm, maybe apache2 needs restarted instead of just reloaded 16:57
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pmurias diakopter: did you get JavaScripdt::V8 to work? 16:57
obra diakopter: much better. tx 16:59
diakopter well
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diakopter it still throws errors 16:59
when more than 1 person try to access it simultaneously 17:00
also, our zend php license has expired, whatever that means. :)
obra: it's b/c trac is setup to use the sqlite backend, which... is not a multi-user database (as I'm sure you're well aware) 17:01
so when the poor contention/wait algorithms time out, errors arise. 17:02
obra actually, it's fine so long as you don't assume write concurrency.
it _is_ multi-reader
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diakopter obra: why not use the SVN::Web instance on feather instead of the one in trac? 17:03
trac is spammed to high heaven. 17:04
many of the links are to wiki.openqa.org, which is also spammed to high heave. 17:05
n
obra ...because it's linked through from the front page of www.pugscode.org 17:06
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pugs_svn r29455 | pmurias++ | [mildew] simplifing method calls 17:12
diakopter pmurias: no; I haven't tried it
pugs_svn r29456 | pmurias++ | [mildew] simplified for AST::If,AST::Let
mberends pmurias: did you manage to get that software from the internet to convert your mildew's AST? ;) 17:16
sjohnson rakudo: my @a = <cow pig chicken>; say @a.grep("i").perl 17:19
pmurias mberends: still working on converting mildew AST to a set of basic nodes which corespond directly to m0ld
p6eval rakudo db84bc: []␤
sjohnson rakudo: my @a = <cow pig chicken>; say @a.grep(/i/).perl
p6eval rakudo db84bc: ["pig", "chicken"]␤
mberends pmurias: ok, the README is taking shape here
pugs_svn r29457 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] finish up geitherrs 17:21
pmurias mberends: after that i'll convert it to SSA, i'll have to code that myself but the algorithm is already on the internet ;) 17:23
mberends pmurias: ok 17:24
TimToady attempts to wake up after sleeping 13 of the last 18 hours... 17:27
lichtkind oh i sleep also very long lately 17:29
thatswhy i said lately
pmurias TimToady: i removed YAML::Syck from STD.pmc 17:30
ash_ winter makes me want to slep a lot
TimToady pmurias: thanks
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TimToady with me, it's hard to detangle SAD from sleep deprivation over the last 3 weeks helping take care of Julian 17:32
17:32 orafu joined
TimToady but the proximate cause was driving straight from Seattle to Mountain View 17:32
takadonet TimToady: how long of a drive is that? 17:34
pugs_svn r29458 | diakopter++ | [sprixel] start and finish gbothrs. two to go (gbothlrs and geitherlrs).
pmurias diakopter: what are those strange gbothrs and geitherrs? 17:36
sjohnson rakudo: my @a = <cow pig i chicken>; say @a.grep("i").perl 17:37
p6eval rakudo db84bc: ["i"]␤
diakopter pmurias: good question :) 17:38
gbothlrs stands for grammar both left and right stateful^Wnondeterministic
a sequence of two possibly-backtracking pattern nodes
TimToady takadonet: 'bout 13 hours of driving, plus sotps; 850 miles
*stops
diakopter pmurias: they're specialized for the various permutations to minimize the runtime checks/branches. 17:39
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diakopter afk& 17:39
sjohnson this new p6 grep is a big deal 17:42
might also be because regex != string in p6
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flip214 rakudo: say [R-] 1,4,9; 17:43
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 6␤
flip214 rakudo: say [R-] 1,4,9,16;
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 10␤
flip214 rakudo: say [R-] 1,2;
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 1␤
flip214 rakudo: say [R-] 1,4;
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 3␤
flip214 rakudo: say [R-] 1,4,2;
p6eval rakudo db84bc: -1␤
flip214 rakudo: say [R-] 1,4,9;
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 6␤
flip214 Fine, Left-to-right reduce! 17:44
No, wrong ...
rakudo: say [RR-] 1,4,9,16;
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Confused at line 2, near "-] 1,4,9,1"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
flip214 rakudo: say [R/] 1,4,9,16; 17:45
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 7.11111111111111␤
flip214 rakudo: say [R/] 1,4,9;
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 2.25␤
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flip214 rakudo: say "Good night everyone" 17:47
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Good night everyone␤
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TimToady hmm, S03:3777 doesn't spec whether R reverses the associativity. 17:57
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pugs_svn r29459 | mberends++ | [mildew/README] new docs, unverified 18:35
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Tene TimToady: I'd like some clarification on S04... it says "Any othe ruse of the Failure object"... but doesn't specify what other uses are possible. Does Failure forward everything to the Exception object it refers to? 18:38
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Tene I guess I should really make a diff of what I'd propose in that section. 18:39
hejki rakudo: say [*] (1..100) 18:40
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 9.33262154439441e+157␤
hejki how-to remove e+..-format?
Tene maybe .fmt? 18:41
hejki rakudo: say ([*] (1..100)).fmt("%.0f") 18:42
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 93326215443944102188325606108575267240944254854960571509166910400407995064242937148632694030450512898042989296944474898258737204311236641477561877016501813248␤
hejki najs
mberends but wrong, it should end in a couple of zeroes :( 18:43
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mberends pugs: say ([*] (1..100)).fmt("%.0f") 18:46
p6eval pugs: 93326215443944150000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000␤
mberends pugs: say ([*] (1..100))
p6eval pugs: 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000␤
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PerlJam nice. They differ completely starting from the 16th digit 18:47
Tene I'm kind of curious about the sequence "Largest number that can be produced by p6 code of length n" 18:48
soupdragon is that busy beaver 18:49
Tene Kinda. Not sure if it's different or not.
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Su-Shee a book teaching "good perl 6 style" is going to be interesting... 18:55
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PerlJam Su-Shee: "Perl 6 Best Practices" :) 18:56
Su-Shee essentially has already bought "Higher Order Perl 6" :)
well, I'm prepared to. ;) 18:57
hejki rakudo: my $str = "foobar"; say $str.comb.elems; say "any other ways? :)" 18:58
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 6␤any other ways? :)␤
Tene any other ways to do what?
HOP is a very nice book. 19:00
PerlJam hejki: This is Perl. There are always other ways.
sjohnson lifetime registration on as many computers that you own so im doing the "right thing" 19:03
Su-Shee rakudo: my $str = "foobar"; say .elems for $str.comb;
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤
Tene registration of what? 19:04
Su-Shee rakudo: my $str = "foobar"; say .perl for $str.comb;
p6eval rakudo db84bc: "f"␤"o"␤"o"␤"b"␤"a"␤"r"␤
hejki hmm 19:05
my point being
rakudo: my $str = "foobar"; say $str.length;
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Method 'length' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤in Main (file src/gen_setting.pm, line 324)␤
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hejki is there any eqv? 19:05
PerlJam rakudo: my $str = "foobar"; say $str.chars
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p6eval rakudo db84bc: 6␤ 19:05
hejki ahh
nice
Su-Shee rakudo: my $str = "foobar"; say $str.elems;
hejki PerlJam++
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 1␤
Tene hejki: the problem is that "length" is ambiguous between chars, bytes, and graphs. 19:06
so you need to specify.
PerlJam hejki: "length" is insufficient because you aren't specifying the units of measure
what Tene said
Tene consider multibyte chars, and combining chars.
hejki ahh
true :)
cognominal_ rakudo: class A; say (A.new x 3) ».» perl
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Confused at line 2, near "\x{bb}.\x{bb} perl"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
cognominal_ should method calling be hyperoberable? 19:07
Tene It is.
rakudo: class A; say (A.new x 3)>>.perl
cognominal_ rakudo: class A; say ((A.new x 3) ».» perl)
oops
Tene rakudo: class A {}; say (A.new x 3)>>.perl
oright
ng: class A {}; say (A.new x 3)>>.perl
p6eval rakudo db84bc: ( no output ) 19:08
rakudo db84bc: Confused at line 2, near "\x{bb}.\x{bb} perl)"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
rakudo db84bc: ( no output )
ng 52d140: Method 'Str' not found for invocant of class 'A'␤current instr.: 'perl6;Mu;' pc -1 ((unknown file):-1)␤
Tene cognominal_: class declaration is always a timeout in rakudo master for p6eval
cognominal_ rakudo: (Int.new x 3) ».» perl 19:11
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Confused at line 2, near "\x{bb}.\x{bb} perl"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
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cognominal_ rakudo: say (Int.new x 3) >>.perl 19:11
p6eval rakudo db84bc: Confused at line 2, near ">>.perl"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤
cognominal_ rakudo: say ("f","oo","bar").>>.chars; 19:12
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 123␤
cognominal_ at last, I got it right 19:13
reading the specs help
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Tene you can't have a space between something and its postfix. 19:18
19:18 sjohnson sets mode: +o cognominal_
Tene rakudo: say (Int.new x 3)>>.chars 19:18
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 3␤
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colomon rakudo: say (Int.new x 3)>>.perl 19:22
p6eval rakudo db84bc: "000"␤
Tene I also suspect that you mean 'xx' 19:23
rakudo: say (Int.new xx 3)>>.perl
p6eval rakudo db84bc: 000␤
Tene 'x' is str rep, 'xx' is list rep
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cognominal_ yea, I am still falling in many Perl 5 traps. 19:24
not only falling for them, but taking a while to realize what is happening... 19:25
sjohnson i do it too :(
even fell in a bad php trap and used == for strings
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cognominal_ a super strict mode should oblige to explicitely numfiy the operands if == is really intended. 19:28
sjohnson please elaborate on the numify thing 19:32
cognominal_ sorry. forget what I said, it would not help on strings. 19:35
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coke is RT #71812 due to a missing "begin" ? 20:00
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coke (I would imagine his complaint is correct.) 20:01
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Su-Shee _HyperWhatever_? :) oh my.. :) 20:13
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colomon HyperWhatever? 20:19
Su-Shee I'm reading perlcabal.org/syn/S02.html 20:20
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colomon ouch. that made my head hurt. 20:21
Su-Shee I'm already crying while hysterically laughing. ;) 20:23
ash_ can rakudo target pbc? instead of pir? 20:57
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PerlJam ash_: what do you mean? You can generate a PBC from the PIR. 20:59
ash_ ah, good point. i can never figure out the obvious questions
diakopter learned about POSIX::pause today 21:00
in the absence of Time::HiRes, I can use it to imitate setitimer 21:01
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PerlJam whoa. I just ran "make spectest" for the first time in a while and it was *fast*. I'm guessing that's because of all of the currently-non-functional tests that have been commented out. 21:40
Tene hehe
colomon PerlJam: ng branch? 21:41
PerlJam aye
Tene PerlJam: I enabled a test file last night that didn't pass on master. :) 21:42
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Tene I don't know what exactly to work on next, as so much is pending on the lists refactor plan from pm. 21:43
colomon PerlJam: yeah, something like 90% of the spectests are turned off there.
mberends pm's probably busy working on it offline. that's how he created nqp-rx. it needs intense concentration. 21:46
Tene It always makes me just a little bit nervous how spread thin the p6 development effort is. I'm not quite sure what I can do to fix it, though. 21:47
PerlJam Tene: become a clone of either Pm or jnthn so when one of them disappears, you're there to take up the slack :) 21:48
colomon Hmmm... it seems to me we're doing okay on the overall number of people working on it at the moment.
Tene That was one of my motivations for working on ng.
mberends Tene: you are helping out a great deal. I understand your thought, though.
colomon But we're horribly blocked on ng and jnthn's stuff.
s/ng/pmichaud/ 21:49
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colomon and wow, that's an interesting freudian slip.... 21:49
mberends heh
PerlJam colomon: though there are still things that can be done to make ng do things that can currently be done in master but not ng.
(without regard to jnthn or pmichaud)
colomon PerlJam: Sure, but it's a pain in the neck picking through everything trying to find things that can be made to work at the moment. 21:50
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PerlJam colomon: well, mberends is probably correct. When I talked to Pm the other day he said he was going to focus on get ng in shape to become master. So, it's likely that we'll see barriers removed over the next couple of weeks. 21:54
colomon Tene: I keep on thinking a few of us should just go ahead and figure out how to make lists work.
PerlJam colomon: that would be good even if it duplicated effort because of the expertise gained. 21:55
(IMHO)
Tene colomon: Sure. I just have limited time, and if it's getting done, I'd rather not duplicate effort.
colomon Tene: understood, I'm in the same boat. (Actually, my time may be effectively none at the moment.) 21:57
Tene HAH I HAVE MORE TIME THAN YOU! 21:58
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colomon Tene: yeah, that's what happens when you have to get ready to try to sell your house AND figure out how to make about 30-40% more money at $work this year. 22:00
Tene I can empathize, unfortunatly. 22:01
PerlJam colomon: That second thing is easy ... just get another job and forego sleep or something :) 22:02
colomon I already got myself a small child to make sure I never get enough sleep. :)
PerlJam I've got 4 year old twins that still crawl into bed with us in the middle of the night. Also, one falls asleep quickly, the other tries to stay up all night. 22:04
ash_ I'd be willing to try to contribute to the ng branch more if I knew what needed to be done 22:05
PerlJam ash_: everything! :)
ash_ i found some bugs or rather things not yet implemented in ng that i am trying to tackle and just submit a patch
PerlJam: see, when you say everything it makes it almost hard to help though, because then i worry someones already doing it 22:06
PerlJam ash_: Find a reasonable sized area of interest and ask here if anyone is working on it. Either the answer is "no" and you're relatively safe or the answer is "yes" and at worst you can collaborate. 22:07
dalek kudo/ng: f7ad5dc | duff++ | src/ (2 files):
rename break/continue to succeed/proceed
 22:08
ash_ PerlJam: hence my working on meta object stuff, but still, jnthn has said he was going to work on some of the stuff i am doing, i just don't know which parts, also, MOP isn't really speced much in S12~14 22:09
PerlJam ash_: Then you could spec it (either by documenting existing design or by stealing from Moose or whatever) 22:10
ash_ there is a document in ng/docs/metamodel.pod that jnthn started 22:12
colomon Hmmm... perhaps the most productive thing we could do at the moment would be to try to make a partial list of areas in ng that need work and aren't blocked at the moment.... 22:15
Also, there's a LOT of room for more/better spectests.
ash_ metamodel stuff isn't really blocked by anything, its just needs to get implemented as far as i can tell 22:16
i did notice most of the HOW methods expect a HOW object, but are passing tests so I am assuming there is room for more tests in the metamodel stuff, thats what I was going to do if i finished adding ^methods to roles 22:17
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pmurias mberends: the default backend is via-C 22:21
mberends: -Cm0ld is used to view the m0ld for a given program
mberends pmurias: oh. see, how much I still need to learn! 22:22
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mberends pmurias: would you do a few README edits and commit before I continue with it? I'm re-installing Linux a few times. 22:23
pmurias ok 22:24
colomon afk 22:25
mberends is very happy with Ubuntu 10.4-alpha1. it even includes libv8-dev :)
pmurias wow does it work with JavaScripdt::V8?
mberends yes! :) 22:26
sjohnson hi 22:27
ash_ mberends: " I'm re-installing Linux a few times." just curious why do you need to do it more than once?
multiple computers?
mberends ash_: one computer, but there are usually a few matters like partitioning that I try out various ways. Also, software installed without using packages is not uninstalled properly. 22:29
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ash_ mberends: ah, makes sense. I always setup my computers with a ~/Projects directory and have ~/Projects/local for software not installed with a package system. 22:32
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mberends this time around, the root partition will be ext4 and /home gets either ext2 or ext3. There is also hibernate in the swap partition to verify. 22:33
ash_ either that or make my own portfile/ebuild files that i want to install outside that folder, so i can use a package system to uninstall/update automattically if i update the files properly 22:34
mberends there is also multi boot (Win 7, 2008 and XP) to factor in for $work 22:35
pugs_svn r29460 | pmurias++ | fix a couple of things in the README 22:36
ash_ i think the key to all of this is having a reliable backup system, lol the second i start tampering with my setup i almost always mess something up, ususally i can recover just fine, but there are losses sometimes 22:39
mberends so true. for backups I prefer spare drives and computers, and just replicate content often 22:41
ash_ is rakudo bug #71816 really a bug? 22:42
i don't see it... 22:43
oh, nevermind i see what the complaint is, the error message doesn't refer to a line# or filename, thats to do with $?FILE and $?LINE but those don't work in rakudo 22:45
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dalek kudo/ng: a867b39 | duff++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
Add unspace parsing
 22:59
kudo/ng: 30136a1 | duff++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
Parse variable shape in declarations
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colomon What do those patches do, then? 23:30
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