»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | Rakudo Star Released!
Set by diakopter on 6 September 2010.
tylercurtis rakudo: sub Good ($time) { say "Good $time #perl6." }; Good time #perl6 00:00
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 22␤»
ash_ rakudo: sub Good ($time) { say "Good $time \#perl6." }; Good time # note the \# 00:02
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p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Good 1285889946 #perl6.␤» 00:02
ash_ although 128589946 is not as meaningful as one would hope
tylercurtis std: sub Good ($time) { say "Good {$time.perl} #perl6." }; Good time # perl6
p6eval std 1d6fdf3: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 119m␤»
tylercurtis rakudo: sub Good ($time) { say "Good {$time.perl} #perl6." }; Good time # perl6
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Good 1285889998 #perl6.␤» 00:03
tylercurtis rakudo: sub Good ($time) { say "Good $time #perl6." }; Good now # perl6
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 22␤»
tylercurtis rakudo: sub Good ($time) { say "Good $time \#perl6." }; Good now # perl6
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Good Instant:2010-09-30T23:40:32.751667Z #perl6.␤»
tylercurtis Interesting. I wonder if that's submitted. 00:04
masonkramer doesn't see the bug
tylercurtis STD parses it but Rakudo doesn't. 00:06
std: sub Good ($time) { say "Good $time #perl6." }; Good time #perl6
p6eval std 1d6fdf3: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
ash_ std: sub Good ($time) { say "Good $time \#perl6." }; Good time
p6eval std 1d6fdf3: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
ash_ hmmm
wonder what's up with that 00:07
masonkramer oh
tylercurtis rakudo: "#foo";
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: ( no output )
tylercurtis rakudo: "$_ #foo";
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "\"$_ #foo\";"␤»
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masonkramer rakudo: say "#foo"; say "$_ #foo" 00:13
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say \"$_ #f"␤»
masonkramer rakudo: say "#foo" 00:14
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«#foo␤»
masonkramer rakudo doesn't print the value of the last expression
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colomon rakudo: role A { has $.b; }; my $c = A.new(:b(10)); say :$c.perl; 02:33
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«"c" => .new(b => 10)␤»
colomon rakudo: role A { has $.b; }; my $c = A.new(:b(10)); say $c.b;
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«10␤»
colomon that doesn't seem to be working in my current code. :\ 02:39
oh wait, yes it is. hmmm. 02:41
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masonkramer oh. now I get tylercurtis's bug =P 02:44
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sorear good * #perl6 06:04
(thunderstorms really crimp my hacking time. otoh, they're quite pretty.)
FWIW, I plan to completely ignore TheDamian 06:10
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jnthn o/ #perl6 08:17
moritz_ \o 08:18
sorear o/ #jnthn 08:23
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masak oh hai, #perl6! 08:41
nymacro good evenin' gov'na 08:42
jnthn lolitsmasak!
masak lol! 08:45
I won't be longing around very stay today.
moritz_ thinks masak is longing for other shores
masak pinin' for the fjords, p'haps. 08:46
moritz_ masak: I hope you don't return as a resting parrot :-)
masak I'll try not to. :) 08:47
I'll try to return as a well-rested parrot instead.
jnthn :-)
masak I'm supposed to release Yapsi tonight, but I don't know what connectivity I will have, so the timeliness of the release is a bit uncertain. 08:48
jnthn
.oO( Official Perl 6 release delayed! )
 08:49
masak had I realized this sooner, I might have put together a release guide and asked someone else to do the release...
jnthn: ssh! you'll end up on Slashdot if you keep repeating that :P
nymacro Perl 6: It will come out sometime. So will Duke Nukem Forever. 08:50
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moritz_ and The Hurd! 08:51
masak let's not forget about Xanadu and Plan 9. 08:52
also, I hear that fifth-generation computers from Japan have been delayed. they're no longer to be released in the 80s, but... sometime later. 08:53
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flussence :( the hardware curse got me today 08:59
half the morning bus services broke down at the same time... 09:00
nymacro :)
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flussence blames it on solar radiation 09:01
.oO( even though there's almost none of that visible today )
 09:02
sorear if you blame the climate in general, I can share 09:03
I was kept away from #perl6 by freak thunderstorms
flussence I think they're headed my way...
sorear Technically, yes. 09:05
However it will take a while for storms to blow from San Diego to the Isle of Man, even if they are going in the right direction. 09:06
masak an interesting short note by Erik Naggum about why "is it finished?" is the wrong question toask: www.xach.com/naggum/articles/199506...um.no.html
flussence heh
jnthn ...wtf...this machine I'm working on at $dayjob is making some...not good noises... 09:08
flussence oh no, not you too!
jnthn My keyboard here failed yesterday!
flussence starts running backups, just in case 09:10
jnthn :-)
I suspect the noise I'm hearing is just a fan on the way out. 09:11
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sorear jnthn: What is OUTER:: in a where{} block? 09:12
jnthn The sub 09:13
well
in sub foo($x where 42) { }
it'd be foo
(replace 42 with something interesting :-))
Needs to be since we're binding the parameters into the lexpad of foo and conditions can look at already bound ones. 09:14
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jnthn Same for defaults, fwiw. 09:17
sorear What if foo is a multi? 09:19
moritz_ guesses it's just the current candidate, not the full multi
jnthn The multi-ness is all about the symbol installation rather than the sub itself being different
e.g. you make the same thing as for a non-multi and it just gets stuck in a candidate list instead of the lexpad. 09:20
So, what moritz_ said.
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sorear I'm more wondering how something can be run in the sub's lexpad before we've committed to which candidate we're running. 09:22
jnthn ? 09:23
If you're asking that I think your mental model of multis is wrong.
sorear call &foo
&foo resolves to the proto
jnthn Right, which then calls a dispatcher.
masak I also see no problem.
moritz_ and at some point, the where-block is checked 09:24
and the where-block is an ordinary closure
sorear the dispatcher does $sorted-candidates.first({ $capture ~~ $^a.signature })
jnthn Right
masak I guess the optimizer may re-order and complicate things, but then it's the optimizer's mess, and it has to correct for its own lies.
jnthn Taht's an really inefficient implementation, but essentially OK.
sorear moritz_: Normal closures are run AFTER the enclosing sub's ENTER time 09:25
If the multi dispatcher is going to call where blocks while deciding what to call, then things are reversed
jnthn Doing a signature bindability check means you need to get a lexpad made so you can put such things in place.
In Rakudo we re-use the one from the winning candidate for the "real" invocation.
sorear Asides from being written in Perl 6, what's slow about that? 09:27
moritz_ you can be smarter about where to start searching, based on the nominal types 09:28
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sorear Unrelated: How do you plan to handle stuff like dir(), IO::Socket::INET, etc in PortableRakudo? nqp::readdir, nqp::gethostbyname, etc? 09:28
moritz_ yes, that's the plan
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masak have a good weekend, everybody! 09:51
I might not re-surface until Monday, in the Netherlands.
o/
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nymacro perlcabal.org is down? 10:06
moritz_ yes, that's a feather1 service 10:07
which said goodbye in a cloud of smoke 10:08
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mathw o/ 10:14
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tadzik oh hai 10:20
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moritz_ back from nom 11:04
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jnthn moritz_: Nice nom? 11:08
moritz_ /~/ 11:09
'twas OK
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jnthn Same...mine was less good that yesterdays. 11:10
But yesterdays was pancakes... :-)
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takadonet morning 11:51
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colomon o/ 11:52
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jnthn o/ colomon 11:54
colomon good morning! 11:55
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moritz_ good localtime() 11:55
rakudo: say ~now.^methods(:local) 11:56
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«new from-posix to-posix Str perl ACCEPTS Bridge Real Bool Int Rat Num Complex reals isNaN abs exp ln sqrt roots sign floor ceiling truncate round cis unpolar rand sin asin cos acos tan atan sec asec cosec acosec cotan acotan sinh asinh cosh acosh tanh atanh sech asech cosech
..acosec…
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moritz_ rakudo: say now.WHAT 11:57
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Instant()␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say ~Instant.^methods(:local)
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«new from-posix to-posix Str perl ACCEPTS Bridge Real Bool Int Rat Num Complex reals isNaN abs exp ln sqrt roots sign floor ceiling truncate round cis unpolar rand sin asin cos acos tan atan sec asec cosec acosec cotan acotan sinh asinh cosh acosh tanh atanh sech asech cosech
..acosec…
moritz_ oh, Instant does Real
colomon rakudo: say Instant ~~ Real 11:58
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say Instant.^roles
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Real()␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say 'good ' ~ <morning noon afternoon>[time.hour div 8] 11:59
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Method 'hour' not found for invocant of class 'Integer'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/ZR4KJnMjwT␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say 'good ' ~ <morning noon afternoon>[DateTime.now.hour div 8]
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«good noon␤» 12:00
tadzik rakudo: DateTime.now.hour.say
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«11␤»
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nymacro goo noon moritz_ 12:04
moritz_ wonders why the server clock is not in UTC
rakudo: say DateTime.now 12:05
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«2010-10-01T11:42:05Z␤»
moritz_ it seems completely off
nymacro it isn't completely off. I'm just from the future. 12:06
moritz_ past, actually :-)
Fri Oct 1 12:06:53 UTC 2010 12:07
since the trailing Z stands for UTC (iirc), it's past
Juerd hates the T in ISO datetimes 12:09
Makes it unreadable
moritz_ 1 Oct 11:47:59 ntpdate[30106]: step time server 24.189.19.214 offset 1385.646993 sec 12:11
flussence huh, I always thought the T was optional...
Juerd It's not; I have a few s/T/ / and s/ /T/ 12:12
nymacro moritz_, it is nearly the 2nd here. So I'm from the future ;) 12:13
moritz_ nymacro: we need those future people; welcome to #perl6 :-)
nymacro it isn't like I have anything better to do; in the future robots do all my work for me 12:15
(PS. invest in SuperRobototronics, it will pay off) 12:18
flussence argh... all this date talk prompted me to check $dayjob's servers and two of them weren't even running ntp. 12:19
oyse Is perlcabal.org down at the moment? I am trying to access the synopsis, but no response from the server 12:20
moritz_ oyse: yes, down
you can read the POD versions on github.com/perl6/specs/ for now 12:21
oyse moritz_: thanks
moritz_: Github parses pod. Nice :) 12:22
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flussence sees a very unpleasant error in the server log 12:22
"time correction of 31535909 secionds exceeds sanity limit (1000)" :( 12:23
s/i//
moritz_ oh wow
flussence yeah, not exactly 2 minutes off
moritz_ rakudo: say 31535909 / 3600 / 24 12:24
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«364.998946759259␤»
moritz_ oh, nearly exactly one year
maybe some license expired, and somebody "adjusted" the server clock? :-) 12:26
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colomon loliblogged: justrakudoit.wordpress.com/2010/10/...s-forward/ 12:27
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moritz_ yes, // '' should work 12:32
daxim colomon, the blog is too narrow to read the code comfortably
flussence the "lots of small classes in several files" thing bothers me too sometimes. 12:34
daxim heeeeey, java! 12:35
moritz_ sometimes just packs some utility classes into the files of other classes
oyse rakudo: required Dummy; 12:37
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &Dummy␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/DdRlcvCmPU␤»
oyse rakudo: require Dummy;
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Unable to find module 'Dummy' in the @*INC directories.␤(@*INC contains:␤ lib␤ /home/p6eval/.perl6/lib␤ /home/p6eval//p1/lib/parrot/2.8.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib␤ .)␤ in main program body at line 26␤»
tadzik non-strictness mentioned in S01 is NYI? 12:41
moritz_ correct
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tadzik hmm, I still didn't get my head around this. Role is not to be instantiated, but what is it worth if we're able to .new it anyway? 12:43
moritz_ yes
www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=862830 # another reason why backporting p6 features to p5 is not always as shiny as it looks
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tadzik uhm, I wasn't expecting a boolean answer for that 12:44
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moritz_ but what you wrote is correct 12:45
a class that only does that role is autogenerated for you
Juerd I can probably get feather1 back online today, but only with 1 GB RAM 12:46
tadzik mhm
Juerd Better than nothing, I guess. Any strong objections?
(The RAM that was in feather0 was supposed to go into c25, feather1's new host, but it's broken now)
jnthn tadzik: You're not instantiating the role. 12:49
All method calls on roles actually cause a class that composes the role to be magically created.
And the call is forwarded to that class instance.
Which can actually dispatch methods.
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tadzik I see 12:50
github.com/perl6/specs/blob/master//S02-bits.pod :( Where is the "I can wait" button? 12:51
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oyse does require support :from<lang> the same way as use does? 13:00
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Juerd blazar has a huge file, ~blazar/tmp/bar.txt 13:11
At 81 MB that's a pretty large text file 13:12
I mean 1.1 GB
Contains nothing but nullbytes.
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jnthn It may compress well ;-) 13:15
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perlpilot I got an email from an L Wall this morning. It gave me brief pause while skimming my messages. 13:15
:-) 13:16
moritz_ Juerd: afaict blazar is dead 13:18
he had cancer
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moritz_ (I hope I'm not confusing him with anybody... will see if I find a reference 13:18
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perlpilot moritz_: www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=735465 13:23
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Juerd moritz_: Oh :( 13:25
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mathw \o/ 13:46
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ash__ *crickets* its quiet today 14:11
mathw it is 14:12
I'm wondering if everybody dissolved in the rain
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moritz_ inside 14:13
slavik a girl at wr0k has a red and white umbrella
ash__ it's pretty dry outside here, but i think i am in a different part of the world than some of you folks 14:14
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slavik NYC 14:14
it's been raining off and on for the last couple of days
mathw It's chucking it down here
it took a bit of a break around lunchtime
moritz_ slavik: how very frankonian of her
mathw it merely drizzled
but now it's really raining again
slavik starsmedia.ign.com/stars/image/arti...41-000.jpg
yes 14:15
ash_ glad to see clear skys here
zombies!?
slavik that's what her umbrella looks like ...
yes!
I am about to ask for some tvirus
ash_ hurry, barricade the door and find something to hit them with
slavik I am in a NOC ...
ash_ noc ... network operations center? (google may have failed me 14:17
)
mathw that's what it usually means 14:18
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mathw wonders how the C++ compiler can have forgotten about a macro from one line to the next 14:18
(and no, the one line isn't #undef MACRONAME)
ash_ at least the raptor's haven't figured out how to open the doors yet (google images of NOC reminded me of Jurassic Park)
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oyse Are there any Test::More'ish test modules available for Perl 6? 14:36
moritz_ Test.pm contains lots of ideas from Test::More 14:37
and from Test::Exceptions, for that matter
tadzik oyse: modules.perl6.org is actually everything we have. Besides Test of course 14:38
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oyse ok. I will take a look at Test.pm 14:39
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ash_ anyone in here familiar with js, or prototype inheritance? 14:51
Juerd Somewhat 14:53
gfldex ash_: i am
Juerd Read "new" as "clone" and everything will make sense ;) 14:54
ash_ lol, i was thinking that too
moritz_ and keeping one "empty" object around from which you clone corresponds to having a class 14:55
gfldex remove that class thing from your head when you think about prototype inheritance 14:57
flussence I'm writing JS right now actually, but I wouldn't mind a distraction
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moritz_ gfldex: only if it confuses you 14:58
flussence
.oO( $dayjob can write php in any language... )
gfldex moritz_: that's the point!
ash_ just kinda toying with the idea, but gist.github.com/606320 is an approach to prototype inheritance in perl6
i have the same example in js, if you have nodejs installed you can run it with node /filename.js, but you'll need 1 function i didn't include to get the multi-inheritance to work right 14:59
its kinda a one-to-one mapping, so it might not be the right approach for perl6, but i just wanted to see how it might work 15:00
flussence looks pretty nice
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ash_ the question is, what happens if you mix a normal class and a prototyped class? also, should i have to say protoclass B is A.new or should the .new be implied? 15:01
flussence I think that should be implied there 15:02
moritz_ "mix" in what sense?
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gfldex ash_: how close do you want it to be with JS? 15:02
ash_ gfldex: i don't care if it matches JS i just want the concept to transfer 15:03
moritz_: "mix" as in a prototype class inheriting from a normal class, or a normal class inheriting from a prototyped class
gfldex then .new is wrong alltogether
ash_ i am not sure i follow 15:05
gfldex var mommy = {baz: function(){ console.log('baz')}}; var child = {}; child.__proto__ = mommy; # that's what new does; mommy.another = function(){console.log('another')); child.another();
in JS a prototype _is_ some other object, not a clone of some other object 15:06
and there is only one object that dont got a prototype, usually called Object
i lied a bit. new creates an empty object, then calles the cunstructor function as a method of that object and then sets the prototype 15:11
in most implementations it sets .constructor to the constructor function so you have something type-like
ash_ got ya, i think i understand, i'll look up __proto__ i don't know what that attribute is
gfldex if you do foo.bar() the runtime will look for ['bar'] in foo, if it doesnt find it it looks in foo.__proto__['bar'], if it doesn't find it it looks in foo.__proto__.__proto__['bar'] ... * 15:13
JS got the most stupid way to have inheritance :)
ash_ hmmm 15:14
and saying var foo = new Foo; sets foo.__proto__ = Foo.prototype?
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gfldex it sets foo.prototype.__proto__ = Foo.prototype 15:16
ash_ okay
gfldex ash_: developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScrip...ject/proto
ash_ i just found that, and i am reading it now 15:17
gfldex ash_: developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScrip..._Revisited
ash_: don't forget that functions are objects in JS, what is very usefull
ash_ ya, i know, but i don't know how that can translate logically to perl6, unless there is some special way of saying this function-like object is also possibly an object, which is why i used 'protoclass' in that example i wrote up instead of 'class' 15:18
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gfldex you have to overload .(), what doesnt work right now 15:19
moritz_ not?
rakudo: class A { method postcircumfix:<( )>($x) { say "OH HAI $x" } }; A.new.('JS') 15:20
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«OH HAI Capture()<0xfd60708>␤»
ash_ is that a raw capture?
wonder why its not OH HAI JS...
moritz_ rakudo: class A { method postcircumfix:<( )>(\$x) { say "OH HAI $x" } }; A.new.('JS')
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«OH HAI Capture()<0xfd5e3f0>␤»
moritz_ rakudo: class A { method postcircumfix:<( )>(\$x) { say "OH HAI $x[0]" } }; A.new.('JS')
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«OH HAI JS␤»
ash_ rakudo: class A { method postcircumfix:<( )>(\$x) { say "OH HAI $x[0]" } }; A.('JS') 15:21
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«OH HAI JS␤»
moritz_ ash_: I remember it has to do with lazy context, but I don't remember the exact reasons 15:22
gfldex rakudo: class A { method postcircumfix:<( )>(\$x) { say "OH HAI $x[0]" } }; my $a = A.new; $a('o.0');
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«OH HAI o.0␤»
gfldex there might be a open ticket that needs closing
gfldex goes looking for ticket
moritz_ wonders how far you can get with has $.proto handles *; 15:26
afk 15:27
ash_ okay, but i thought the whole point of prototype-based OO was you had a prototype object that you cloned, so you have your prototype of your object that you clone into an instance, but it requires the prototype to be pretty malleable, and the interesting thing is you can use your sub-objects to make new objects via the same cloning operations. its not all that different than what p6 does already, it just has different semantics for de
object
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gfldex that's not how JS is doing it 15:30
you have an empty object that is cloned
but why would you want to clone an empty hash?
ash_ well, there are some implied things your getting via Object.prototype 15:31
gfldex nope
you get implied things from Object
and for any var a = {}; you get a.prototype.__proto__ = Object.prototype 15:32
so if you get all the properties from Object that are there or added later at runtime 15:33
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gfldex and that's why JS sucks :) 15:33
ash_ okay, well, one sec, lets look at another language that does prototype-based inheritance
lua does prototype-based
in lua, a new object is made from a hash, so: Vector = { } \n function Vector:new(x) ... end; makes a new object you can call new from by doing: Vector:new(0) 15:34
gfldex what does setmetatable(object, { __index = Vector }) do? 15:35
ash_ but really Class:method is syntax sugar for Vector.new(self, argx) so
thats like: my $obj = { ... }; bless $obj, 'Vector'; return $obj; 15:36
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ash_ its the same as JS sorta, if self.x fails it looks in __index.x then in __index.__index.x etc... 15:37
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ash_ you could emulate the whole prototype thing with a couple of hashes and a dispatch function 15:44
gfldex indeed 15:45
ash_ it would be nice to be able to do most of that without having to uses hashes though 15:50
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ash_ is there a way to tell if something is callable? 15:59
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PerlJam ash_: I think if it has a "do" property, it's callable. 16:00
TimToady rakudo: say &print does Callable
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in clone()␤ in 'infix:<does>' at line 37␤ in 'infix:<does>' at line 537:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/NXqor71nBI␤»
TimToady oo
rakudo: sub foo {}; say &foo does Callable 16:01
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«foo␤»
ash_ rakudo: say &print.can('invoke');
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«␤»
16:01 am0c left
ash_ &print is probably because its in pir? maybe? 16:01
the Null PMC access i mean
either way /submits bug
TimToady rakudo: say &infix:<Xxx> does Callable 16:03
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &infix:<Xxx>␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/ZJOpTAhpAM␤»
TimToady rakudo: say <a b c> Xxx 3 16:04
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«aaabbbccc␤»
ash_ rakudo: say ?&infix:<xx>
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
ash_ isn't X a modifier on xx?
TimToady unless xx is a modifier on X :) 16:05
ash_ hmm
good point
rakudo: say ?&infiix:<X>
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &infiix:<X>␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/iD8rDYiWbG␤»
ash_ err i duno if that would be infix
hmm wonder what it would be
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TimToady but yes, meta-ops tend to treat their op as the function that they do HOP on 16:05
ash_ rakudo: say &infix:<xx> does Callable 16:06
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in clone()␤ in 'infix:<does>' at line 37␤ in 'infix:<does>' at line 537:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/_9dcPUttPb␤»
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TimToady so Xxx really means something like crosswith(&infix:<xx>) 16:06
ash_ rakudo: multi sub print ($a, $b, $c) { }; say &print does Callable; 16:07
TimToady however, a p6 implementation should be able to generate &infix:<Xxx> at need
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in clone()␤ in 'infix:<does>' at line 37␤ in 'infix:<does>' at line 537:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/onUnnxpcY7␤»
ash_ hmmm, so another bug? 16:08
s/bug/rakudo bug/
TimToady well, perhaps the old multi implemention showing through; it didn't really believe in &foo
that should improve with jnthn++'s new model
ash_ i was testing if i added user-defined part a sub if it would show up as "does Callable" 16:09
TimToady and I think that most built-ins are declaraed multi as a matter of policy
*-a
ash_ rakudo: multi foo { }; say &foo does Callable; 16:10
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in clone()␤ in 'infix:<does>' at line 37␤ in 'infix:<does>' at line 537:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/r3Y4_fl37R␤»
ash_ ah
so its only mutli's that give the null PMC error then? (possibly, need to check it more) 16:11
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ash_ anyone know how to send an update to a ticket in rt.perl.org? 16:12
i think someone told me once, but i forget these kinds of things
colomon [email@hidden.address] 16:13
?
moritz_ ash_: reply to the confirmation mail 16:14
ash_ moritz_: thanks 16:15
colomon ah, update. 16:16
jnthn back from $dayjob 16:18
ash_ gist.github.com/606426 very simple and ugly prototype based objects using hashes and a dispatch function
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ash_ gist.github.com/606426 updated to have inheritence 16:24
TimToady ash_: did anyone ever answer your = question? = is always mostly-eager; you have to use := to get lazy list binding 16:25
ash_ TimToady: i read in something i found about perl6 from 2007 that $ context was eager and @ context was lazy, thats what i was wondering if it is still true
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ash_ jnthn: do you know much about prototype based inheritance? 16:41
jnthn ash_: I'd have a clue how to write a PrototypeHOW. :-)
ash_: I guess it's mostly be a case of keeping the method store per object, and the object having also a reference back to its prototype. 16:43
ash_ gist.github.com/606426 does that look reasonable to you?
that is a silly implementation of prototype based objects using hashes and a special dispatch function
the hash based thing does actually run in rakudo currently 16:45
the other thing in the gist is sorta a possible way of implementing it
jnthn Yeah, it looks at least fairly sane.
Once I get the meta-model stuff a bit further along, it could be fun to play with writing a PrototypeHOW 16:46
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jnthn (I'm going to be writing ClassHOW in NQP.) 16:46
TimToady ash_: the eager/lazy distinction has turned out to be primarily operator driven, not sigil driven 16:47
ash_ a concern is what if you pass something other than a prototype to .^prototype? also, how would instance's work? i haven't figured these issues out
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TimToady $foo may contain something lazy, but +$foo will ask it for .elems if it's Positional, for instance 16:47
ash_ TimToady: got ya, thats sorta what i figured after seeing people discuss it in here
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TimToady it's still kinda true, but it's the need for a scalar operand that derives from something listy, which probably gets bound to some $ internally, but not necessarily from the user's view of sigils 16:49
jnthn ash_: IIUC, there are only instances 16:50
e.g. a new instance is just an object with a prototype pointing to the thing it's an "instance" of.
ash_ ya
thats how they work 16:51
jnthn Things only get more interesting if you want to start doing v8-esque shadow classes.
ash_ but would that play nice with the current dispatch logic? for methods, attributes, etc..
jnthn I think it's workable.
ash_ thats more what i wasn't sure of, if it would play nice wit the current system
jnthn Well, I know the smop++ folks could handle prototype-y stuff, and my API isn't a million miles from that. 16:52
ash_ do you know if they had any examples? 16:53
jnthn I don't reacall one specifically 16:55
May be worth looking through the repo.
ash_ should i use .^prototype or should i use .^add_method / .^add_attribute? 16:56
jnthn Very likely .^add_method and .^add_attribute for adding methods and attributes to the prototype. 16:57
huf give me back perlcabal.org :)
jnthn Otherwise, people won't be able to write prototype Foo { has $!x; method foo() { ... } } and have it work out.
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ash_ jnthn: i guess, the thing i am wondering about is what is the difference between doing class A { ... }; then using A.^add_method; vs prototype-based? 17:00
is the end result any different?
gfldex with add_method multiple inheritance is easier to handle 17:01
and you can make less sane assumptions with prototype-chains 17:02
or the other way around, prototype based is even more dynamic then add_method 17:03
ash_ i am not sure i understand what you mean by 'more dynamic' 17:04
gfldex imagine you want to cache bindings, so you don't have to walk down the prototype chain with each and every method call 17:05
finding out when you have to flag the cache as dirty is quite tricky 17:06
ash_ thats a concern of normal inheritance too 17:07
jnthn ash_: I think the difference is where you stick the method.
ash_: For a class-based system, it lives in the meta-object
For a prototype based one it'd live in the instance.
ash_ isn't the meta-object an instance? 17:08
jnthn Of the metaclass
Not the same thing as an instance of the class
(for the OO case)
ash_ i am just trying to find out what is different between the two so we can clearly define it for PrototypeHOW
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jnthn I think that a lot of it really is where things like add_method, add_attribute etc put stuff. 17:09
ash_ so, prototype-base: methods live in the instance, inheritance checks (recursively) the prototype of the instance
jnthn Yes
That sounds right.
vs. class-based where methods live in the meta-object, which is referred to by many instances. 17:10
ash_ okay
can those interact with eachother? 17:11
should those interact with each other?
jnthn That probably gets into the messy issue of meta-class compatibility.
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ash_ eg: class A is protoclass { ... } { ... } 17:11
jnthn (short answer: it's probably painful...) 17:12
ash_ or, protoclass A is Mu { }
gfldex ash_: gist.github.com/606510 imagine this fellow is a prototype of some object, would you do it that way with classes?
jnthn ash_: My feeling is that delegation is a good direction to look in. 17:13
PerlJam what does "interact with each other" mean exactly? 17:15
ash_ s/interact/inherit/
s/with/from/
rdesfo is there a perl6 version that works with nokia's n900?
gfldex o.0
tadzik I think so
now how was he named, /^^ snark .+ / I think 17:16
PerlJam If Perl 6 supports prototype-based and class-based object systems, both of those should be built using the same tools so that they are "object compatible" I think. (i.e., you can switch from one object model to the other fluidly)
tadzik rdesfo: search for perl6 at identi.ca
17:17 mberends joined
tadzik seen snarkyboojum 17:17
aloha snarkyboojum was last seen in #parrot 3 days 11 hours ago joining the channel.
ash_ PerlJam: well, that might prove to be difficult, considering how they both function, but not impossible 17:18
rdesfo tadzik: thanks
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PerlJam ash_: yeah, I'm just dreaming a little bit right now :-) 17:19
ash_ i think it would be a good first step to prototype prototype-based by itself, then worry about how they interact
gfldex PerlJam: it's tricky because with prototype based objects augmenting objects is very very easy, both for an instance and a 'class' 17:21
jnthn -> noms, back later
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ash_ gfldex: did you see gist.github.com/606426 ? the hash based one does work with rakudo currently, if you want to try it out, its not pretty, but it does basically what prototype-based OO should, i think 17:24
the 2nd file in the gist is more my idea i am working with for how it might look once PrototypeHOW is implemented 17:25
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ash_ now, how to declare a multi method for a prototype based object is beyond me 17:29
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mberends decommutes uk -> nl 18:17
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diakopter o_O 18:33
diakopter waits for dalek 18:34
18:34 dalek joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v dalek
diakopter prepare for the onslaught 18:34
moritz_ \o/
diakopter guesses there's lots of catch-up to do
tadzik oh wow 18:35
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^Mike Will Perl6 have a builtin boolean type? 18:36
tadzik ^Mike: it alredy does
18:36 dalek left
^Mike fair enough 18:37
Does it use the words 'true' and 'false'?
tadzik rakudo: my Bool $a = 7.Bool; say $a.WHAT; say $a.perl
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Bool()␤Bool::True␤»
tadzik rakudo: my Bool $a = false; say $a.WHAT; say $a.perl
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &false␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/DR75ZB8MoQ␤»
tadzik rakudo: my Bool $a = False; say $a.WHAT; say $a.perl
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Bool()␤Bool::False␤»
tadzik gotcha
^Mike nice 18:38
tadzik so I'm afraid it uses the words True and False :)
ash_ rakudo: say Bool::False; # is the long name for it
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
ash_ rakudo: say Bool::True, 1.so, 1.defined;
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tadzik aye 18:38
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Bool::TrueBool::TrueBool::True␤»
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ash_ rakudo: say 0.so; 18:38
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
ash_ .so is a test for iffy 18:39
tadzik rakudo: my $you = 5; if $you.say.so {}
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«5␤»
tadzik rakudo: my $you = "yes"; if $you.say.so {} # better 18:40
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«yes␤»
ash_ well, if .so returns True then in an if statement, it would be considered true
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ash_ rakudo: say 0.so; if 0 { say 'fail' } else { say '0 is false' } 18:40
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤0 is false␤»
ash_ rakudo: say ().so 18:41
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
ash_ rakudo: say ().WHAT
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
ash_ rakudo: say Nil().WHAT 18:42
tadzik yep. And it's not defined
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &Nil␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/qc4507eWG4␤»
ash_ rakudo: say 0.defined
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
ash_ 0 is defined, same with 1...Inf
there is a difference between defined-ness and .so
tadzik yep 18:43
TimToady n
oops 18:44
TimToady wasn't disagreeing
disagreeable though he may be
ash_ rakud say "".defined 18:45
rakudo: say "".defined 18:46
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
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hudnix well I just spent a miserable two hours figuring out that the error message "Type objects are abstract and have no attributes, but you tried to access @!foo" in fact had nothing to do with the attribute @!foo or anything else in my class, but was really complaining that I had declared my object with "my $obj;" instead of "my $obj .= new" 18:56
nooodl hmm, i'm currently on windows and want to try out rakudo... i'm using parrot, downloaded the rakudo addon. i get an error -- "could not load oplib `perl6_ops'" 18:57
hudnix Personally, I would either set up a virtualbox or dualboot linux to try out rakudo if I had a windows box. 19:00
sjohnson i would just ask one of your computer pals who runs ubuntu linux as a server somewhere and can give you a shell to play around
hudnix or that. 19:01
sjohnson <--- is using that computer for screen'd irc
tylercurtis hudnix: When you do "my $obj", you're creating a variable $obj whose value is the type object for the type it is constrained to. In this case, since you didn't specify a type constraint, it's Any, I think.
nooodl i run ubuntu, too, and perl 6 works on there for sure :)
tadzik why not just use the Star msi?
have you tried that, nooodl?
nooodl tadzik, nope
tylercurtis nooodl: I know that for Rakudo * 2010.07, there's a binary MSI, but I don't think there's one for later releases yet. 19:02
tadzik then do. It's supposed to Just Work [tm], and has modules and funny stuff and ponies
nooodl is there a big difference?
tadzik well, yes
[Coke] .
tadzik if you mean the 2 months difference between releases
19:02 sjohnson is now known as [Pepsi]
hudnix tylercurtis: Yes I gathered that, eventually, it's just that the error message didn't immediately point me to suspect that that was the problem, as it was complaining about something inside the class. 19:02
[Pepsi] （　｀ー´） 19:03
[Coke] phenny: tell moritz_ I don't have that access for TPF.
phenny [Coke]: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
tadzik jnthn: *poke poke*
nooodl rakudo star's working 19:06
hudnix personally I think there should be a clear demarcation between class methods and instance methods. Then the error would be something like "attempt to call an instance method on a type object". 19:07
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ash_ rakudo: class A { method foo { if self.defined { say 'Invoked from class'; } else { say 'Invoked from instance'; } }; say A.foo, A.new.foo; 19:12
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 22␤»
ash_ rakudo: class A { method foo { if self.defined { say 'Invoked from class'; } else { say 'Invoked from instance'; } } }; say A.foo, A.new.foo;
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Invoked from instance␤Invoked from class␤Bool::TrueBool::True␤»
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ash_ rakudo: class A { multi method foo (where { ?self.defined }) { say 'Invoked from class'; }; multi foo ( where { !self.defined }) { say 'Invoked from instance'; } } }; A.foo; A.new.foo; 19:21
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Can not do non-typename cases of type_constraint yet at line 22, near ") { say 'I"␤» 19:22
ash_ std: class A { multi method foo (where { ?self.defined }) { say 'Invoked from class'; }; multi foo ( where { !self.defined }) { say 'Invoked from instance'; } } }; A.foo; A.new.foo
p6eval std 1d6fdf3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/XsBA1QzVA5 line 1:␤------> d }) { say 'Invoked from instance'; } } ⏏}; A.foo; A.new.foo␤ expecting statement modifier loop␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
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tylercurtis ash_: that only works if your instances are defined. 19:22
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tylercurtis ash_, also, I think you need a : after that parameter to specify that it's an invocant parameter. 19:23
ash_ is there no way for the where to check tat?
that*
tylercurtis I think the currently planned way to distinguish type objects and instances is Foo:U versus Foo:D. 19:24
ash_ what would the method signature look like?
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ash_ method foo(Foo:U $self:) { }? 19:25
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colomon foo (A:D $a:) maybe? 19:25
TimToady no, A:D is a just type, not a maybe type :) 19:26
ash_ multi method foo (A:D $self:) { ... } # so, like that? 19:30
std: class A { multi method foo (A:D $self:) { say 'Invoked from class' } multi method foo (A:U $self:) { say 'Invoked from instance' } } }; A.foo; A.new.foo;
p6eval std 1d6fdf3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/oOP7EIgaVh line 1:␤------> A:D $self:) { say 'Invoked from class' }⏏ multi method foo (A:U $self:) { say 'In␤ expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤ 19:31
..infix …
ash_ hmm
std: class A { multi method foo (A $self:) { say 'Invoked from class' } multi method foo (A $self:) { say 'Invoked from instance' } } }; A.foo; A.new.foo;
p6eval std 1d6fdf3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/sHxEzbHyjl line 1:␤------> (A $self:) { say 'Invoked from class' }⏏ multi method foo (A $self:) { say 'Invo␤ expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤
..infix …
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moritz_ sorear: which mono version is required for niecza? 19:34
phenny moritz_: 19:03Z <[Coke]> tell moritz_ I don't have that access for TPF.
jnthn ash_: Need a ; in there after the } before teh second multi 19:35
tadzik jnthn: mind updating the Star msi?
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ash_ std: class A { multi method foo (A:D $self:) { say 'Invoked from class' }; multi method foo (A:U $self:) { say 'Invoked from instance' } } }; A.foo; A.new.foo; 19:37
p6eval std 1d6fdf3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/3WK75uWjBl line 1:␤------> elf:) { say 'Invoked from instance' } } ⏏}; A.foo; A.new.foo;␤ expecting statement modifier loop␤Other potential difficulties:␤ $self is declared but not used at /tmp/3WK75uWjBl
..line 1…
ash_ whats the "expecting statement modifier loop" from?
moritz_ sorear: nevermind, just found the README.pod :-) 19:40
ash_ rakudo: my $a = method { say $!b }; class B { has $!b; }; my $b = B.new(:b(5)); $b.$a(); # TimToady is that supposed to work?
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«5␤»
TimToady no 19:41
ash_ okay, just wondering, jnthn said it probably won't work in the future
jnthn tadzik: I'll see if I can do it at the weekend.
tadzik jnthn++
jnthn TimToady: I'm happy for it not to work, though part of me wonders how people will get at attributes if they're constructing a class "by hand" (e.g. using calls on the meta-object). 19:43
TimToady: I'm happy enough if the answer is "a pragma".
TimToady or some variant of 'trusts'
jnthn github.com/jnthn/test-mock/blob/mas...ock.pm#L56 is an example from real code I've written, fwiw. 19:44
TimToady ash_: the "expecting statement modifier loop" naturally falls out of what it would have been looking for at the end of a normal statement (which a declaration is, really). but the "Confused" is LTA
when it could report "Unbalanced closing bracket found"
and that could also be one of those messages that is difinitive enough that it should suppress the (automatically generated) list of what it was looking for there 19:46
*definitive 19:47
ash_ okay, so that wasn't an error it was more of a warning? 19:48
TimToady the error is Confused. the other is just more info about what state the parser was in at the time
a distraction in this case 19:49
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Grimnir_ is there any official place to get perl6 modules? 20:04
or "official"?
tadzik where they lie is the place :) It's github
moritz_ modules.perl6.org
Grimnir_ oh, nice
moritz_ wonders why google still links to proto.perl6.org, which now redirects to modules.perl6.org/ 20:10
oh, it's a 302 redirect 20:11
should be 301
gfldex it's going to take a few more months for google to become self-aware
moritz_ now it's a 301 20:13
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Grimnir_ perlcabal.org seems to be down 20:23
moritz_ it is. 20:24
Is nobody reading p6c?
Grimnir_ errm... apparently not. what is p6c? 20:28
moritz_ the perl6-compiler mailing list
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moritz_ (automtatic installation)++ 20:33
I've just done a 'cpan install App::cpanminus' on a pristine Debian Squeeze
and then a 'cpanm STD'
and it worked all without errors
just had to hit enter a few time to confirm installation of dependencies 20:34
now I'm trying 'cabal install Pugs'
that needs 'cabal update' first, but now runs for some time without error
20:45 nooodl left
moritz_ but pugs compilation fails :( 20:49
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diakopter moritz_: I didn't get anything from p6c 21:13
moritz_ www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....g6854.html 21:14
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diakopter (I mean, I don't remember unsubscribing from that list...) 21:14
jnthn got the mail 21:17
diakopter moritz_: but which version of ghc do you have
(do we have)
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moritz_ The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.12.1 21:17
diakopter hrm 21:18
21:19 bluescreen left
diakopter moritz_: similar to this error log? hackage.haskell.org/packages/archiv...e/ghc-6.10 21:22
fails at 21 of 89
moritz_ diakopter: github.com/audreyt/Pugs.hs/issues#issue/1 that's the error 21:23
uhm, I just realized that for turning SVG::Plot into a Chart::Clicker port, I need to first port Geometry::Primitive and Graphics::Primitive 21:25
a dozen and two dozen classes each 21:26
diakopter `o'
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sjohnson （　｀ー´） 21:27
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cspencer was just looking for the perl 6 spec docs, but perlcabal.org seems to be down 21:36
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sorear good * #perl6 21:40
sjohnson hi
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sorear moritz_: I develop on mono git master, because it's massively faster. Ergo, I may accidentally depend on something not in 2.4. Let me know if that happens. 21:41
tadzik cspencer: yep, it is. You can read them on github though 21:42
cspencer tadzik: thanks - which repository are they located in? 21:43
tadzik cspencer: github.com/perl6/specs
cspencer tadzik: thank you! :)
tadzik cspencer: you're welcome! :)
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diakopter ok, dalek should start spewing any time now 22:19
tadzik panics 22:25
It'd be a lot easier if masak was present 22:26
hmm, I just thought about something like grep, but with Perl 6 regexes. What do you think? 22:27
sorear diakopter: who is dalek living with now? 22:28
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diakopter :) 22:31
67.217.170.47
sorear ENORDNS
diakopter no, just a new vps I just created
moritz_ is busy moving p6eval to it also 22:32
we needed to upgrade debian
sorear I think that's in the same /8 I am; US west coast?
diakopter actually it's supposedly in Ashburn, VA
Grimnir_ if I want to make an array of foo of bar, how do I do that? it complains if I do "my Array of Foo of Bar $colors;". if I make "my List of Foo of Bar $colors;", I don't get an error 22:33
sorear Grimnir_: 'my @colors' 22:34
Grimnir_ yeah ok, I don't have to be explicit about the type, but if I want to? 22:35
I'm trying to do something kind of like in the perl6 advent: "my Cup of EggNog $mug = get_eggnog(); 22:36
"
from perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/1...-18-roles/
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jnthn my TypeOfThingInIt @foo; 22:42
The typename there is the type of the things in @foo, not the type of the container.
Generally, type names always mean "what will I get back if I ask this to give me a value".
So for arrays and hashes it's the type of the value. my Foo &x menas that you want a sub that declares itself as returning foo, because you get a value out of a sub by calling it. 22:43
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cspencer p6eval: enum VarNames <Foo Bar Baz Qux>; my Array of VarNames $a; 22:55
perl6: enum VarNames <Foo Bar Baz Qux>; my Array of VarNames $a;
p6eval rakudo 8827d0: OUTPUT«Method '!select' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/Pk09FOA_4u␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "of"␤ expecting ":" or "("␤ at /tmp/ljHebOL6eS line 1, column 43␤»
cspencer is there someway i might be able to work around this error? 22:56
sorear cspencer: my Array $a
don't declare types on arrays, it WILL NOT WORK
cspencer sorear: alright, that's easy enough :)
gotcha
sorear it's one of the bugs listed in the last R* release announcement 22:57
(not that I can really gloat; Niecza doesn't support type annotations on *anything*)
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sorear hmm 23:23
I wonder what a good way to handle nextsame; is
I'd rather NOT force all method calls to go through a Perl 6 run-once loop with control exception handlers 23:24
they're already one of the most expensive operations
araujo www.ideone.com/UJUjI 23:30
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diakopter d4l3k_: um 23:49
die die die
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Juerd diakopter: That's a weird way to greet an old friend 23:49
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Juerd Feel free to kill it though 23:50
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diakopter done. 23:50
touch /service/dalekbot/down 23:51
svc -d /service/dalekbot/down
afk&
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