»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | tinyurl.com/p6contest
Set by moritz_ on 28 December 2010.
dalek ecza: 9343a2c | pmurias++ | docs/nam.pod:
document the sink op
 00:00
sbp could call them the Orders. Perl 1 was doric, Perl 2 Ionic. Perl 3 was Corinthian, and Perl 4 was Composite. Perl 5 was baroque, and you can insert your own Perl 6 architecture joke here
masak sbp: I like. and, by extension, Perl 6 is the Chaos. :) 00:01
sbp a Camelia flaps its wings in Brazil and a Perl 6 happens in a tiny shack in JAPH's mind 00:02
masak a tiny bikeshed, more like...
masak hides
sbp :-) 00:03
MysqlForumTroll Perl 7 will be called Madonna because Madonna is seven letters long. 00:06
masak MysqlForumTroll: I can see no flaw in your logic.
MysqlForumTroll: what's your impression of Perl 6 so far?
MysqlForumTroll masak: Still lokng at syntax 00:07
masak understandable.
MysqlForumTroll: you had been using Perl 5 before, yes?
MysqlForumTroll masak: I like the new function prototyping syntax with the arguments in-line. 00:08
masak me too.
MysqlForumTroll masak: But also C++, some PHP, and Java
masak sometimes when I code in Perl 5, I start writing a function signature... then I go "oh, right :/" 00:09
the lapses only last a couple of seconds, generally.
MysqlForumTroll My only concern with Perl 6 is making sure I have stuff I need like postgres, good integration with a web server, etc
masak I wish there was more I could say to allay that concern. in truth, it's a bit of a Wild West right now. 00:10
sbp just pop the old "v6; use v6; use Perl:<6.*>; use Perl:ver<6.*>; module GLOBAL; my $xmlns = 'perl6.org/perl6';" at the top, easily fixed
masak things are untidy and up-for-grabs.
sorear sbp: "postmodern"
sbp sorear: your submission for a PERL-6 algorithm name has been received by NIST and progressed to the final round. you should hear more about the result some time in 2012, as long as your implementation is not so fast as to scare the algorithmic crap out of us 00:11
00:11 lue left
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....dex_tablet 00:16
tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....tor_tablet
00:16 perimosocordiae left 00:17 lue joined
lue hello again o/ 00:18
wolverian masak: MooseX::Declare (; 00:19
masak rakudo: "0123456789", { .substr(1) ~ .substr(0, 1) } ...^ "0123456789"
p6eval rakudo a52525: ( no output )
masak rakudo: .say for "0123456789", { .substr(1) ~ .substr(0, 1) } ...^ "0123456789"
p6eval rakudo a52525: ( no output ) 00:20
wolverian (re: sub signatures)
masak wolverian: *nod*
wolverian: I've used it occasionally. it's a good idea.
wolverian I'm actually using it at work now.
and Moose::Autobox.
masak wolverian: thing is, some things are too "small" for Moose, and then I don't use it.
wolverian sure.
masak rakudo: .say for "1234567890", { .substr(1) ~ .substr(0, 1) } ...^ "0123456789" 00:21
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«1234567890␤2345678901␤3456789012␤4567890123␤5678901234␤6789012345␤7890123456␤8901234567␤9012345678␤»
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dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....tor_tablet 00:32
00:35 MysqlForumTroll is now known as Telsa2point0
masak rakudo: .say for [1..4], *.reverse ... [1..4].reverse 00:37
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4␤3␤2␤1␤»
masak is this right? :/
rakudo: .WHAT.say for [1..4], *.reverse ... [1..4].reverse
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«Array()␤Int()␤Int()␤Int()␤»
colomon ai ai ai 00:38
masak what demotes it from Array to Int?
was it something I said? :/
colomon that line hurts my vicodin-adled brain 00:39
wolverian I can't read that line at all :)
the second part anyway
masak don't you guys start, too... :P
colomon rakudo: say ([1..4], *.reverse ... [1..4].reverse).perl
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«(([1, 2, 3, 4]), [3, 2, 1])␤»
masak huh.
...*what*? 00:40
colomon rakudo: (*.reverse)([1..4])
p6eval rakudo a52525: ( no output )
masak rakudo: say (*.reverse)([1..4])
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«4321␤»
colomon rakudo: say ([1,2,3,4], *.reverse ... [1..4].reverse).perl 00:41
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«(([1, 2, 3, 4]), [3, 2, 1])␤»
colomon why does it stop, I wonder?
rakudo: say (*.reverse)([1..4]).perl 00:42
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«(4, 3, 2, 1)␤»
masak why does it stop? why does it arrive at [3, 2, 1]?!?
lue rakudo: say ([1,2,3,4], *.reverse ... [1..5].reverse).perl 00:43
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
colomon oh!
lue++
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....tor_tablet
masak is still *completely* lost
lue I guess I just did something important.
colomon rakudo: say ([1,2,3,4], *.reverse ... *)[^4].perl
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«([1, 2, 3, 4], (4, 3, 2, 1), (1, 2, 3, 4), (4, 3, 2, 1))␤»
masak something with... Parcels...? 00:44
masak still doesn't see it
it must be late where I am.
colomon Second [1..4].reverse is being treated like it is .... 4, 3, 2, 1 00:45
masak oh!
colomon++
colomon rakudo: say [1, 2, 3, 4] ~~ 4
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
colomon so it returns the first element, then the termination test passes, then it throws in 3, 2, 1 as extra RHS elements. 00:46
afk
masak :)
lue rakudo: my @a = <code test debug> ... "done"; # ooc 00:48
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
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lue If I could find out a way to make <code test debug> cycle continuously... [until you're "done", of course] 00:49
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colomon rakudo: say (<code test debug> xx *)[^10].perl 00:53
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«(("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"))␤»
colomon rakudo: say (<code test debug> xx *).flat[^10].perl
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«("code", "test", "debug", "code", "test", "debug", "code", "test", "debug", "code")␤»
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....tor_tablet 00:54
colomon or if you don't like that 00:56
rakudo: say ({"code", "test", "debug"} ... "done")[^10].perl 00:57
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«(("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"))␤»
colomon rakudo: say ({"code", "test", "debug"} ... "done").flat.[^10].perl 00:58
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«(("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"), ("code", "test", "debug"))␤»
colomon errr.... not sure about the lack of flat there.
that may be a sequence op bug.
lue It's my first stab at masak's mini-contest ^^^. I'll probably come up with more clever uses later :) .
colomon mini-contest?
colomon is still working on masak's big contest 00:59
lue [14:10:44 (PST)] <masak> new mini-contest: find inspiring and out-of-the-box uses of the sequence operator! 01:00
[22:10 UTC I believe]
colomon ah
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masak I'm still struggling with an entry to my own mini-contest. 01:01
seriously evil code.
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....tor_tablet 01:05
colomon rakudo: my @church := -> &f { -> $x { $x } }, -> &g { -> &f { -> $x { &f(&g(&f)($x)); }; }; } ... * 01:06
p6eval rakudo a52525: ( no output )
colomon rakudo: my @church := -> &f { -> $x { $x } }, -> &g { -> &f { -> $x { &f(&g(&f)($x)); }; }; } ... *; say @church[4] 01:07
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«_block188␤»
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colomon dunno if that's right or not, too lazy to find out atm 01:07
justrakudoit.wordpress.com/2010/04/...-numerals/
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dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....dex_tablet 01:11
masak thinks that the Perl 6 variant of the Schwartzian Transform will be "make list into pairs, do a .grep or a .first on the values, then read out the keys" 01:14
rakudo: say [3, 4, 1000, 5, 1].pairs.max(*.value).key 01:16
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«2␤»
TimToady I tend to do it the other way around, with the .value being the payload, and the .key being the schwartzified data
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....tor_tablet
tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....dex_tablet
masak TimToady: how would you write the above?
by the way, "schwartzified data" is a really beautiful phrase. 01:17
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masak "Look, the data isn't gone, it's just schwartzified!" 01:18
TimToady well, in this case the index is the schwartzified data--you'd do pairs to get the keys to look at 01:19
masak true.
and I can't really argue that it should be the other way, because those indexes are the array equivalent of keys. 01:20
so it's just a wrinkle in the waterbed mattress, I guess.
colomon masak: snippet from my p4: $board.stones.pairs.grep(*.value).map(*.key).join(', ')
masak nice.
colomon I was pleased, for sure. :) 01:21
masak looking forward to everybody's solutions.
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....tor_tablet 01:22
tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....dex_tablet
masak I think I will send out an email to all 18 contestants tomorrow, urging people to submit early and not to sit on solutions too long.
colomon ooo, why?
colomon wants to make his solutions purty
masak not because I will judge latecomers differently... just that I want many solutions. :)
sure, feel free to polish your solutions, if you think you have enough time. 01:23
colomon I'm quite curious if anyone other than moritz_ and I will finish.
colomon is still being optimistic that his p5 will work one day
masak divulges nothing
TimToady for examples of schwartzianness, see both solutions in rosettacode.org/wiki/Hofstadter-Con...nce#Perl_6
it relies on the fact that max on a pair compares the keys before the values 01:24
masak sounds familiar.
TimToady since max is really just a mini-sort
masak yes, I've seen that one.
.max is .sort[*-1] :)
TimToady the Z=> is particularly fun 01:25
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masak yeah, that's one of moritz_' favorites. 01:25
TimToady it can be viewed as a say of attaching (void*) data :)
*way
masak :)
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masak TimToady: hey, you're nesting if-for-if statement modifiers! 01:27
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dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....tor_tablet 01:27
tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....dex_tablet
TimToady masak: which is perfectly fine as long as you parenthesize 01:30
masak right.
so the parsing rules allowing if-inside-for but not vice versa are more for the parser than for the programmer?
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TimToady it's more to prevent people from writing list comprehensions backwards 01:31
since a lot of languages put the conditional to the right of the loop, despite it logically going inside 01:32
colomon I've got some sort of weird wrong line number in error issue going on with my p5 code. :\
TimToady is there an if/then/else?
masak TimToady: I see. hadn't really noticed that other languages have it backwards. 01:33
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....dex_tablet
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TimToady rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Haskell for instance 01:34
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TimToady or rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:OCaml 01:35
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TimToady gah 01:35
rosettacode.org/wiki/List_comprehensions#Haskell 01:36
masak ah.
TimToady rosettacode.org/wiki/List_comprehensions#OCaml
rosettacode.org/wiki/List_comprehensions#Python
masak I see it with Python. Think I'm too tired to see it with Haskell and O'Caml. 01:37
those two don't seem to nest at all. 01:38
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lue blag toast! rdstar.wordpress.com/2010/12/31/co...s-concept/ 01:40
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masak lue: seems to me what you call "Core++", pmichaud calls "different distributions of the same implemenatation". note that your solutions is singular, while pmichaud's is plural. 01:42
solution*
sjohnson Oh Camel
masak lue: (and I do like your thinking posts. keep'em coming.)
lue I've never heard of pmichaud talk about that. Then again, I've only seen pmichaud in backlog form lately... 01:43
masak pmichaud: have you listened to the recent interview with pmichaud?
er, meant to lue. 01:44
lue: he mentions it there.
lue I just want a nice solution to that "should it be core?" tug-of-war. This is the first idea off the top of my head.
I have not seen that interview.
masak I first heard him talk of the idea during YAPC::EU 2009.
lue your description of what pmichaud talks about sounds similar to Fedora Spins, if I'm not mistaken. Fedora for artists, Fedora for mathematicians, Fedora for Time Lords, etc. 01:46
masak lue: www.twit.tv/floss140 01:47
it's a long interview, but I think you'll enjoy the historical perspective.
lue please wait several moments while I download and convert the audio from .mp3 to .ogg ... 01:49
lue screams "I need a new computer!" to himself
masak actually, I'm going to bedz. 01:50
'night.
01:50 masak left
lue I'll deal with that later. afk! 01:52
lopnor hello, is there anyone who can't download rakudo-star-2010-12 with 403 error? 02:02
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flussence lopnor: yep, broken here too 02:05
lopnor ah, i'm not the only one... 02:06
colomon lopnor: what url are you using? 02:10
lopnor it's redirected and finally cloud.github.com/downloads/rakudo/s....12.tar.gz
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lopnor it failed from my home (japan) and ec2(us-west), ec2(ireland). 02:11
i think it's s3 or github problem. 02:12
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colomon I can verify I get access denied as well. Sigh. 02:20
sjohnson doh! 02:25
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diakopter lopnor: I was able to download it from github.com/downloads/rakudo/rakudo....12.tar.gz 03:10
oops
that's not star
(sorry, yeah, I get access denied on star) 03:11
lopnor yes, i need star.
dalek rixel: 7634713 | diakopter++ | / (7 files):
fixed linebreak-terminated block statements. *finally*.
sorear rakudo: say ord "ab"; 03:35
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«97␤»
sorear rakudo: say ord "";
p6eval rakudo a52525: ( no output )
sorear rakudo: say ord ""; say "alive"
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«alive␤»
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moq is there a mirror for rakudo 12? cloud.github.com/downloads/rakudo/s....12.tar.gz is broken. 03:45
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moq anybody know how to get a hold of pmichaud? cloud.github.com/downloads/rakudo/s....12.tar.gz is broken. 03:48
nm, found his pobox
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sorear perl6: say ord("").perl 04:41
p6eval niecza v1-35-gc9d17a7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'ord' used at line 1␤Check failed␤»
..pugs, rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«undef␤»
sorear rakudo: say ord("").WHAT 04:42
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
sorear undef, really?
TimToady maybe it just stringifies to that? 04:47
anyway, definitely a bit suboptimal
rakudo: say Failure.perl
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«Failure␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ord("").PARROT 04:48
p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«Failure␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ord("").perl 04:49
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p6eval rakudo a52525: OUTPUT«undef␤» 04:49
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TimToady ooh, spectests hung in reverse.t 04:51
flussence the undef comes from rakudo/src/builtins/Exception.pir:92
if anyone's curious
sorear Now that perl no longer requires a specific encoding, do ~& et al still make sense?
TimToady they do on buffers 04:52
flussence not so useful for strings (assuming they operate on codepoints there at all) 04:54
TimToady looks like nesting.t is going to hang too
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TimToady makes a nice lap-warmer when it's 25℉ 04:56
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TimToady and the trig tests appear to be busted 05:07
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TimToady rosettacode.org/wiki/List_comprehen...JavaScript is also inside out, along with Haskell, OCaml, and Python 05:16
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TimToady I'm only counting the ones that are structured as TUPLE, LISTS, GUARD, not the ones that are LISTS, GUARD, TUPLE, which are really just standard loops 05:19
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sorear S03:2131 is a glaring fossil 06:26
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JimmyZ hello, speaking of hosting rakudo.org on wordpress.com, Can I visit it if it's on wordpress.com? 07:00
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dalek ecza: b709f82 | sorear++ | v6n/C (2 files):
[v6] Add Perl6 translation of CgOp
 07:33
ecza: 520f58d | sorear++ | lib/Builtins.cs:
Add builtins for chr, ord, +|, +&, +^
ecza: 4ff9853 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
add bitshift operators
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moqqq is there a perltidy fork or config for perl6? 07:36
TiMBuS i don't think so 07:44
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LeifD Is there a method like pythons dir function? So I can get what methods an object provides at runtime? 08:43
sorear $obj.^methods 08:45
LeifD Thank you
What does the ^ mean?
sanxiyn LeifD: It is .^, not ^. 08:47
It means meta-method call.
LeifD So methods is something larger than the object I '.^' 08:48
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dalek ecza: 2f26901 | sorear++ | v6n/CClass.pm6:
[v6] Complete translation of CClass
 09:17
ecza: 32d94f6 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
[v6] Translate cclass.t, make it pass
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sorear this is proving more painful than I expected 09:17
09:18 sanxiyn left
sorear starts keeping a TODO list, wonders if it should be on github tracker 09:18
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diakopter___ sigh 09:31
anyone around? 09:34
in the irclog above, when my client was disconnected at :22, was it timed out, or did the client "quit"? 09:35
sjohnson hi 09:44
diakopter___: 01:21:19 <-- | diakopter (~M8YCjC56g@209.9.237.164) has quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds)
diakopter___ hm, ok; thanks
sjohnson diakopter___________________: no worries
:)
moritz_ phenny: ask masak why he thought removal of the optional parameter vs. multi was necessary 09:50
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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diakopter___ PHEW 09:52
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itz I get 403 for cloud.github.com/downloads/rakudo/s....12.tar.gz is that a feature? 10:26
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moritz_ nope 10:27
itz I tried lynx, wget and chromium
moritz_ seems like a github problem 10:28
the actual download URL is https://
and then they redirect you to a http:// URL
and then deny access
I'm asking in #github 10:30
itz ok ty, I'm rolling my own via git 10:31
dalek ast: e76dd4c | moritz++ | / (184 files):
s/done_testing/done/ as per recent S24 changes
ast: ee3b704 | moritz++ | S03-operators/context.t:
[context.t] better test descriptions
sjohnson mor + itz
:3
moritz_ itz: the star build system isn't very cross platform, and I don't know if it has been tested on anything but linux
sjohnson: you forgot the _ 10:32
sjohnson heh
btw moritz_, i rewrote some of your hugme bot to do my own stuff
itz moritz_: ok well I'm testing on FreeBSD 8.2 as a side effect then
moritz_ itz++
sjohnson all sorts of silly stuff like fortune telling and things like that, thanks for writing the base for it
moritz_ :-) yw
sjohnson fortune telling based on who asks for it, is always a good laugh in a channel of about 10 regulars 10:33
moritz_ "you're going to get involved in long, fruitless discussions" 10:35
sjohnson haha
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dalek kudo: 6a9a38f | moritz++ | Test.pm:
rename done_testing to done; leave a die() in place
 10:38
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masak oh hai, zebras! 11:02
phenny masak: 09:50Z <moritz_> ask masak why he thought removal of the optional parameter vs. multi was necessary
masak not necessary, just... superfluous. implementation suggestions in the spec are usually of the non-obvious kind, like when things seem unimplementable. 11:03
LeifD Does parrot jit to native'ish code? 11:08
masak LeifD: that's a question better suited for #parrot over at irc.perl.org, I think. 11:09
LeifD ok 11:10
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sjohnson masak: yo 11:10
masak y0 11:11
sjohnson sjohnson.goto(bed); 11:15
masak moritz_: I could add back the wording about optional parameter vs. multi, but then I would also like to point out the possibility of doing *@_ and analyzing the arguments the Perl 5 way. 11:16
takadonet morning all
masak takadonet: \o
takadonet: you're up early.
takadonet wow... you know me too well....
masak :)
takadonet I had to drop off my sister at the airport so I came to work early 11:17
masak work? on Dec 31?
takadonet half day
masak ah. 11:18
takadonet looks like my last two reddit post got lots of comments 11:20
masak aye. 11:21
people like to discuss syntax.
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takadonet looks like pmichaud is back! 11:23
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pmurias masak: a plan function must be called as the first thing in the file 11:28
masak oh? I thought the done function was essentially a plan function called at the end. 11:29
pmurias masak: it is
but the plan can be called either at the start or the end
masak is it an error to call plan (rather than done) at the end? 11:30
LeifD Latest rakudo git fails make test with: t/01-sanity/99-test-basic.t ........ Dubious, test returned 1 (wstat 256, 0x100) 11:31
pmurias masak: no
masak pmurias: I'll add some wording about that.
pmurias masak: the error happens on the TAP level
and there done/plan are equivalent
masak right. I was talking about the TAP level. 11:32
it's also an error to call them multiple times, I suppose. 11:33
pmurias yes 11:34
dalek ecs: 3f49fb7 | masak++ | S24-testing.pod:
[S24] clarified what TAP doesn't like

It doesn't like no calls to C<plan> or C<done>, it doesn't like more than one call, it doesn't like a call at an inappropriate time...		 11:36
pmurias sorear: having a short term TODO would be good 11:38
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moritz_ masak: the reason behind the optional vs. multi thing was that we want to keep Test.pm conceptually really simple 12:01
so that an implementation that only does multis by arity can implement ok() etc.
for example rakudo's Test.pm is from a time where there were no optional arguments 12:02
pmurias and the difference matters when the user add's his own 'multi ok'? 12:03
moritz_ or when he introspects the testing functions 12:04
masak I see. I interpreted the wording as primarily restrictive, but it seems to have been intended as primarily permissive. 12:06
I agree that S24 should say something about how closely an implementation's Test.pm is expected to conform. 12:08
using niecza's Test.pm6 has also convinced me that we have to specify *exactly* what we expect the output of the various test functions to be, even if it seems obvious.
for example, Rakudo's &is has 'got/expected' logic. Niecza's doesn't. 12:09
pmurias masak: does 12:13
masak oh, does now? nice.
still, my point stands.
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moritz_ we also need to spec what's supposed to happen when you call pass("a\nb") 12:22
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moritz_ masak: re why do pass/flunk require a description: they are the only functions that unconditionally pass/fail, so there's no testing effect. Which means they must do something weird which requires an explanation 12:23
masak was just going to ask that :)
moritz_: I understand that motivation, and I wouldn't use pass/flunk without a description either. 12:24
but it feels like yet another area where we impose restrictions without needing to, and possibly without seeing all the consequences.
what have we to lose from making *all* the $desc parameters optional, and gaining a bit of consistency? 12:25
moritz_ what about making them all mandatory? :-)
masak look, some people may have good reason not to use test descriptions.
pmurias we shouldn't force stuff on people
masak it feels odd to require them on pass/flunk. 12:26
pmurias someone passing "" as a description won't help anyone
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moritz_ masak: IMHO pass and flunk feel odd 12:28
masak why?
moritz_ because they don't test anything 12:29
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moritz_ hm, they make sense for control flow testing 12:29
if 1 { pass() } else { flunk }
pmurias ok 1 12:30
masak again, this is "I don't see the use for it, so let's ban it" thinking.
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moritz_ anyway, I'm not set on madatory description for pass/flunk 12:30
masak changes it, then
moritz_ there's a difference between banning and simply not providing
masak aye. 12:31
I'll also add back some wording about optional parameters being implementable in various ways.
takadonet someone could be using multiple flunks based on how the test failed 12:32
a description would be nice then 12:33
pmurias masak: when do the different ways to implement optional params make a difference?
masak takadonet: I'm not arguing *against* a description on flunk. I'm arguing for the option to leave it out. 12:34
pmurias: when someone goes looking for the multis that are already there, for example. 12:35
pmurias masak: why does the spec have to take into account incomplete implementations
masak: those that are incomplete can be a bit none conforming
dalek ecs: 167354e | masak++ | S24-testing.pod:
[S24] made all parameters optional

Also added back some clarification that optional parameters can be implemented in other ways, for example using multi dispatch.		 12:36
masak pmurias: that's a good point. I'd like to discuss that more.
nom & 12:37
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colomon rakudo: my $a = "This is a test"; $a.substr(10) = "Polka!"; say $a; 12:55
p6eval rakudo 6a9a38: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/sxS4UlF87j␤»
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masak sorear: what colomon just tried... would it be hard to implement that in niecza? 13:10
moritz_: pmurias brings up a good point. why should S24 cater to non-full-featured implementations? the rest of the spec doesn't. 13:11
in fact, that was part of why I removed the original sentence. incomplete implementations will have to make compromises *anyhow*, and they generally don't need to be told that they do. 13:12
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redicaps perl6: class a{}; my $b = a.new; 13:15
p6eval pugs, rakudo 6a9a38, niecza v1-35-gc9d17a7: ( no output )
masak rakudo: class a {}; say a.new
p6eval rakudo 6a9a38: OUTPUT«a()<0xba4eee8>␤»
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redicaps I was playing on try.rakudo.com and it gave me → class a{}; my $b .= a.new(); Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'a' .... 13:16
masak that syntax looks odd.
rakudo: class a {}; my a $b .= new; say $b 13:17
p6eval rakudo 6a9a38: OUTPUT«a()<0x8611038>␤»
masak that works.
redicaps yep, from perlgeek.de perl-5-to-6
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masak redicaps: note that '$a .= method' is just sugar for '$a = $a.method' 13:18
so 'my A $b .= new' is just sugar for 'my A $b; $b = $b.new;' 13:19
abd at the point before the assignment, $b contains an uninitialized A type object, which has a .new method.
redicaps masak: got u 13:22
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rokoteko 15:56 < tkr> www.dyers.org/blog/beards/beard-types/ 13:57
15:56 < tkr> OBVIOUSLY he missed one type.
15:56 < tkr> articles.mongueurs.net/magazines/do...y_wall.jpg
(oh, wait yes. and tkr is me)
huf hungarian politician mustache ;) 13:58
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masak wow, lots of beard inspiration to be had on that page. 14:01
a couple of days ago I downgraded my van Dyke to a goatee. my burns are much shorter than on the goatee pic, though. 14:05
huf halasztelekma.hu/wp-content/uploads...aszlo2.jpg that's what i'm talkin about
masak indeed.
that looks like a politician I could trust! :) 14:06
M_o_C Hi. Let's say I want to look up a certain keyword, built-in * or control structure in the spec. Is there a quick way to do this? (Using google sort of fails when you want to look up the specification of "for" or the likes.)
masak M_o_C: most of us here have the git repo checked out, and then we use ack on it. 14:07
M_o_C Ok. 14:09
colomon How do you clear out a Hash? %a = {} ? 14:12
rakudo: my %a = A => 54, B => 2; say %a.perl; %a = {}; say %a.perl; 14:14
rokoteko rakudo: my %h = (a => 1, b => 2); say %h.perl; %h = (); say %h.perl
p6eval rakudo 6a9a38: OUTPUT«{"A" => 54, "B" => 2}␤{}␤»
rakudo 6a9a38: OUTPUT«{"a" => 1, "b" => 2}␤{}␤»
masak that's not really "clearing out a hash", though. 14:15
that's grabbing a new one.
colomon have to admit I'm not sure I care about the difference for p5. ;)
masak then carry on :) 14:16
rokoteko how do you delete hash keys or array elements in perl6, masak ? 14:17
masak std: my %hash = foo => 42; %hash<foo> :delete;
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
masak rakudo: my %hash = foo => 42; say %hash.perl; %hash.delete("foo"); say %hash.perl 14:18
p6eval rakudo 6a9a38: OUTPUT«{"foo" => 42}␤{}␤»
masak rokoteko: hope that answers your question.
rokoteko rakudo: my %h = (a => 1, b => 2); ; %h.delete(keys %h); say %h.perl
p6eval rakudo 6a9a38: OUTPUT«{}␤»
rokoteko masak: yes it did, thanks.
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tadzik hello, renideers 14:27
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colomon hello, satan 14:32
moritz_ hello santa 14:40
rakudo: say 'satan'.comb.sort eq 'santa'.comb.sort
p6eval rakudo 6a9a38: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
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masak dreams of an adverb that means 'compare under this transformation' 14:55
[Coke] moritz_: is there a way to write that without duplicating the comb and the sort? 14:56
moritz_ rakudo: say [eq] <satan santa>.map: *.comb.sort.join 15:00
p6eval rakudo 6a9a38: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
moritz_ [Coke]: not perfect, but at least without repetition
qiuhw Somebody who would like to review this: github.com/qiuhw/rakudo/commit/dee...2d579ae7b? 15:03
moritz_ takes a look
qiuhw: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6a...62ca23321a 15:04
but I forgot the test in t/
qiuhw moritz_: But what I have changed in Test.pm is after your commit. The code in END {} still calls done_testing() which will cause spectest to fail 15:08
dalek kudo: d3688bb | moritz++ | t/01-sanity/99-test-basic.t:
a forgotten done_testing. quihw++
moritz_ qiuhw: oh, sorry, I missed that part 15:09
will apply
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dalek kudo: f99d081 | qiuhw++ | Test.pm:
rename more done_testing to done
 15:19
pmurias sorear: ping
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pmurias sorear: what is ->xref on Metamodel? 15:33
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colomon moritz_: did you have any luck with io-prompter? 15:49
I've got a version which compiles okay, but when I try the examples, Rakudo sees its core "prompt" instead of the new module versions. 15:50
and when I rename the subs, I get an error "Method 'after' not found for invocant of class 'Cursor'" 15:51
flussence good morneveninight, * 15:55
colomon * *, *
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colomon oh, is *that* what TimToady was saying yesterday? 15:55
flussence yes :)
colomon Did someone call me slow-of-mind?
flussence well, he could've been saying anything... 15:56
I've got a fix here if anyone wants to take it: github.com/flussence/roast/commit/2e547de
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colomon gist.github.com/761112 -- is my "current" problem in IO::Prompter. (I've got a workaround, but this is an elegant piece of code which is apparently broken in modern Rakudo.) 16:08
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moritz_ colomon: no luck, but I didn't try either 16:11
colomon: seems that <?after ...> is NYI in nqp-rx
jasonmay rakudo: ({}.WHAT == Hash).perl.say
p6eval rakudo 6a9a38: OUTPUT«Type objects are abstract and have no attributes, but you tried to access $!storage␤ in 'EnumMap::elems' at line 5080:CORE.setting␤ in 'Iterable::Numeric' at line 3812:CORE.setting␤ in 'infix:<==>' at line 7369:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 16:12
..22:/tmp/yhJUxX1gQe␤»
s1n it's been a while since i played with rakudo, but can i execute the perl6 fakexecutable outside the rakudo diretory?
moritz_ s1n: you can, if rakudo is installed correctly
s1n moritz_: i just pulled it outta git and built it
moritz_ s1n: and did you 'make install'? 16:13
s1n no, do i need to set a prefix path?
moritz_ no, it installs into the same location as your parrot
s1n trying...
moritz_ ie if you ran parrot, it installs into parrot_install/bin/perl6
see also: README 16:14
s1n yup, that worked, thanks
it's been over a year since i even looked at perl6 :/ 16:15
moritz_ then you'll probably find that much has improved since your last attempt
(though speed isn't among the improved aspects)
s1n wow, yup, my old code doesn't work heh 16:16
[particle] the spec has improved, too ;)
jasonmay where can I read about the .perl feature? 16:23
s1n std: class Foo { sub foo is export (Int bar) { ... } }
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse signature at /tmp/Li6sADxaSq line 1:␤------> class Foo { sub foo is export ⏏(Int bar) { ... } }␤Couldn't find final ')'; gave up at /tmp/Li6sADxaSq line 1:␤------> class Foo { sub foo is export (Int
..⏏b…
jasonmay not very easy to search for.. :)
s1n why does that fail but pass without the signature?
[particle] what happens if you leave off bar, or add a sigil? 16:25
[particle] hasn't played with perl 6 in quite a while, either :(
s1n std: class Foo { sub foo is export (Int $bar) { ... } } 16:26
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $bar is declared but not used at /tmp/vw_zvj2dnN line 1:␤------> class Foo { sub foo is export (Int ⏏$bar) { ... } }␤ok 00:01 121m␤»
s1n that's odd
std: class Foo { sub foo is export (Int) { ... } }
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 121m␤»
s1n smells a problem 16:27
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moritz_ jasonmay: I think it's in S02 16:28
jasonmay: .perl is supposed to return a string that, when run as Perl 6 code, reproduces the original object 16:29
... evaluated in item context
s1n std: class Foo { sub foo is export (Int $bar) { $bar = 1 } } 16:31
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 124m␤»
s1n that works, oddly 16:32
moritz_ std only checks syntax
jasonmay moritz_: thanks 16:34
rakudo: [[[]]].pretty.say
p6eval rakudo f99d08: OUTPUT«Method 'pretty' not found for invocant of class 'Array'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/6xhLVaDM0_␤»
s1n rakudo: class Foo { multi sub foo is export (Str $bar) { $bar = 1; } }
p6eval rakudo f99d08: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed multi at line 22, near "sub foo is"␤» 16:35
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s1n std: class Foo { multi sub foo is export (Str $bar) { $bar = 1; } } 16:35
p6eval std 625303c: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 124m␤»
s1n bug?
[particle] i'm not sure it's a bug 16:36
std does some semantic analysis, and it's there that it's finding 'declared, not used' 16:37
i suppose an exception could be made if the body of the sub is ...
s1n [particle]: std didn't complain but rakudo parse failed
[particle] oh, sorry, i'm still looking at "std: class Foo { sub foo is export (Int $bar) { ... } }" from above 16:38
multi foo is export? not 'multi sub ...'? 16:39
i really don't know in this case.
s1n i had 'multi sub foo'
[particle] rakudo: class Foo { multi foo is export (Str $bar) { $bar = 1; } } 16:40
p6eval rakudo f99d08: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed multi at line 22, near "foo is exp"␤»
[particle] seems the multi syntax is what you need to look at. 16:41
moritz_ multi foo(Str $bar) is export { ... } 16:42
otherwise the (...) is parsed as an argument to the "is export" trait 16:43
s1n did the 'multi sub' become just 'multi' 16:45
moritz_ 'multi' and 'multi sub' are synonyms 16:46
s1n what about method? i forgot the difference 16:47
colomon moritz_: I'm going to clean up what I've currently got and push it, and give you a commit bit. 16:48
pmurias s1n: multi method is a method
s1n: you call it with the $foo.bar syntax
s1n pmurias: but how are methods different than subs?
pmurias subs are lexical
methods are tied per object 16:49
s1n you mean i don't need an instance to call them?
moritz_ you invoke a method like $obj.its_method
s1n subs don't need the instance? 16:50
moritz_ right
s1n okay
moritz_ rakudo: say uc("foo")
p6eval rakudo f99d08: OUTPUT«FOO␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say "foo".uc
p6eval rakudo f99d08: OUTPUT«FOO␤»
moritz_ rakudo: BEGIN { say uc "foo" }
p6eval rakudo f99d08: OUTPUT«FOO␤»
moritz_ huh
why does that work 16:51
but not
rakudo: BEGIN { push @*INC, 'foo' }
p6eval rakudo f99d08: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find sub &push␤»
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s1n when i get the ===SORRY!=== line, why don't i get the file that with the line number? 16:53
colomon moritz_: github.com/colomon/io-prompter -- you've got a commit bit now 16:55
moritz_ because of the weird interaction of parsing with the rest of the world
colomon: thanks
moritz_ -> gone for New Year's Eve party
s1n Quoted method name requires parenthesized arguments at line 49, near ";\n "
colomon moritz_: mind you, it doesn't exactly work yet.
s1n that's not a helpful error message
[particle] moritz_: INIT {...} works
BEGIN does not
s1n that's like saying "Sorry, there's a bug somewhere"
moritz_ [particle]: ... but only due to a bug, when used together with "use" 16:56
because "use" should be BEGIN time
[particle] rakudo: INIT { push @*INC, 'foo' } 16:58
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
[particle] rakudo: BEGIN { push @*INC, 'foo' }
p6eval rakudo f99d08: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find sub &push␤»
[particle] i mean, rakudo is ok with running the push at INIT time, but can't find &push at begin-time
rakudo: BEGIN { @*INC ,= 'foo' } 16:59
p6eval rakudo f99d08: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find sub &infix:<,=>␤»
[particle] rakudo: BEGIN { @*INC = 'foo', @*INC }
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
[particle] rakudo: BEGIN { @*INC = @*INC, 'foo' }
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
[particle] it seems @*INC doesn't have the push method at BEGIN time 17:00
s1n ugh, my code is too bitrotted :/
[particle] for some strange reason.
s1n does trait_mod:<*> not work the same? 17:01
moritz_ s1n: I've reported the missing line number at BEGIN time as a bug 17:02
really gone &
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colomon ack, trying to deal with loose regexes is very frustrating 17:11
VXZ I prefer my regexes tight. 17:13
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pumphaus that's what he said.. 17:16
is anyone able to download rakudo-star 2010.12 ? 17:17
github always gives ma 403 permission denied
2010.11 works just fine
*gives me a
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dalek ecza: 025e408 | pmurias++ | / (4 files):
[Test.pm6] remove &done-testing and &done_testing
 17:49
ecza: c70d541 | pmurias++ | cl-backend/ (2 files):
start of the common lisp backend
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tadzik pumphaus: that's known, sorry for that 18:05
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[particle] that's not helpful. is there a workaround? 18:06
TimToady I couldn't find one last night, but I'm no gitmaster 18:08
so I think tadzik++ was about as helpful as could be
flussence you can download the .tar.gz of the current commit, that should be identical to the 2010.12 there 18:09
TimToady but doesn't have the extras?
flussence in the rakudo/star repo, should do
[particle] could someone throw it on the cpan? 18:10
flussence oh, hm. I suppose the 2010.12 download contains the stuff done after a `make release` on it
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kthakore rakudo: say "hi" 18:23
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
kthakore ??
rakudo: say 'hi'
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
kthakore wth?
colomon rakudo: say "blue"; 18:24
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
colomon rakudo: say 1 18:25
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
TimToady pugs: say 42
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«42␤»
colomon it's broken. :(
flussence rakudo: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
TimToady the last time I rebuilt rakudo I had to blow away parrot_install for some reason 18:26
that was last night
has scrolled off my screen, so dunno why 18:27
but rakudo has been running since then under evalbot 18:28
rakudo: BEGIN { say "hi" }
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
TimToady rakudo: BEGIN { @*INC ,= 'foo' } 18:29
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
TimToady that at least got output earlier on the same release
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TimToady rakudo: say uc("foo") # worked earlier on f99d08 18:34
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
dalek tpfwiki: (Herbert Breunung)++ | www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....ook_tablet
TimToady niecza: say uc("foo")
p6eval niecza v1-35-gc9d17a7: OUTPUT«FOO␤»
TimToady evalbot control restart 18:38
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TimToady rakudo: say 42 18:39
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p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output ) 18:39
TimToady oh well, it was worth a shot
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diakopter rakudo: say 42 19:27
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
diakopter hm
wolverian hrm rakudo .12 is still giving me 403 19:28
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diakopter #perl6 <TimToady> rakudo: say 42 19:30
Segmentation fault
#perl6 <diakopter> rakudo: say 42
Segmentation fault
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diakopter doesn't know how to fix 19:32
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rindolf Hi all. Which Parrot version is required by rakudo-2010.12? 19:43
Happy new year too. 19:44
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sorear good * #perl6 19:46
[Coke] rindolf: it should be documented in build/PARROT_REVISION 19:48
(but usually it's the version that came out earlier in the week) 19:49
rindolf [Coke]: apparently it's 2.11.0
sorear pmurias: pong 19:55
pmurias: 'dunno-what-this-is' is a list of xids of child subs 19:59
it defines the sub tree, along with outer
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lue ohai #perl6 o/ 21:09
rindolf Hi lue 21:10
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masak we're quickly running out of 2010 over here... 21:15
s1n lots of time, just under 9 hours :) 21:16
masak we only have 1h45m left here.
rindolf masak: I only have 42m left. 21:18
masak rindolf: good, then you can tell me if 2011 is any good :)
rindolf masak: OK. 21:19
tadzik oh, masak, we're in the same TZ
rindolf lue: what's up? 21:21
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masak tadzik: oczywiście! :) 21:21
rindolf masak: which language is that? 21:22
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hanekomu sounds polish 21:22
er, looks
tadzik :)
masak :)
tadzik it even has ś
and I still don't have ó in colemak
21:27 coldhead joined
lue it's still 2010 over here! 21:27
rindolf lue: also here. 21:28
coldhead Today is Sweetmorn, the 1st day of Chaos in the YOLD 3177
21:28 M_o_C left
lue I was glad when 2009 left. That meant the end of those stupid glasses. Unfortunately, I forgot you could still do it for 2010. 21:29
21:36 LeifD left
lue I think S22 needs severe updating. Maybe it can detail neutro instead? 21:58
colomon Probably needs severe updating, but I don't think neutro is supposed to be any more than a quick stopgap measure until we have something better. 21:59
rindolf masak: 2011 seems fine so far. 22:02
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colomon seems strictly imaginary so far from here. ;) 22:03
lue resists bringing time-dilation into the discussion 22:06
sorear distracts lue with en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycentric_Dynamical_Time 22:09
22:09 rindolf left
lue distracted indefinitely 22:14
diakopter speaking of time dilation.. 22:18
lue I can never remember if climbing to the top of a mountain would make 2011 come faster or slower (compared to, say, sea level) 22:27
22:30 snearch left
flussence well, you'd be moving faster when it comes 22:33
TimToady it really helps if the top of the mountain is on the other side of a TZ boundary 22:34
colomon TimToady: \o/ 22:35
colomon will disappear in a moment when his battery runs out.
22:37 masak left
colomon Happy New Year! 22:39
Trashlord happy new year!
Sat Jan 1 00:39:52 IST 2011
22:40 masak joined
lue assume a perfectly longitudinal and level coastline, with a mountain whose peak is colinear with the beach. Somebody is on the beach and somebody is on the peak of the mountain. Who sees 2011 first? 22:41
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colomon which side is the ocean on? 22:42
lue does it matter? If so, pick left. 22:43
22:44 colomon left
TimToady can I assume a spherical 2011? 22:45
nap & 22:48
lue feels he needs to read the General Theory of Relativity sometime
rakudo: (1,2,3) E "hi".say 22:54
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
allbery_b the person on the mountaintop sees it first, but unless it's e.g. Everest it'll be only be a matter of nanoseconds
lue rakudo: (1,,3) E "hi".say
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
allbery_b www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge...5/gps.html interesting related read
tadzik rakudo: say Date.now.year
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
tadzik rakudo: say now.year
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
tadzik rakudo: say now
p6eval rakudo f99d08: ( no output )
tadzik oh you!
allbery_b still coring? 22:55
lue That's what I thought. of course. I'm not talking about can anybody notice, that would require a massive change in distance, maybe the radius of Jupiter?
allbery_b I was actually thinking GR differences 22:56
speed of light vs GR effects... which one is dominant depends on a number of issues 22:59
(and if one of the observers is moving relative to the other there's also SR time dilation :)
22:59 lichtkind joined
lue I should think of becoming a physicist instead. I'd much rather go to college for that than programming, because I've been doing that since I was 10. 23:02
[er, 2nd that = programming] 23:03
23:08 felliott left
coldhead physics is so gross and imprecise 23:09
coldhead shudders 23:10
allbery_b they're both applied math...
lue I personally think physicists are killjoys. I can't travel at speed of light? Why? [I might go with "Temporal Scientist" instead]
[I know why, but physicists always seem like killjoys when they say so] 23:11
23:13 colomon joined
allbery_b just remember we still haven't seen the last word on that 23:14
a whole bunch of physics comes up for potential upending if we can't find the higgs boson :) 23:15
and there are other areas that have similar potential. reconciling GR with QED looks weirder and weirder the more is found out about both 23:17
23:21 soroush_ left
tadzik happy new year! 23:23
23:24 jhuni joined
masak happy new year! \o/ 23:24
23:24 soroush joined, masak left
lue sorear: I agree that S03:2131 is a bit weird. 23:27
23:29 Axius joined 23:31 hanekomu left, qw3rty joined 23:37 uasi joined
lue Hm, this place seems really quiet today, can't fathom why⸮ 23:38
sjohnson people are drinkin beers
and hugging family members and friends alike
i'll definitely be doing the former tonight 23:39
23:39 uasi left 23:40 Axius left 23:41 Axius joined 23:58 Axius left

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