»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | tinyurl.com/p6contest
Set by moritz_ on 28 December 2010.
flussence_ the thing I'm thinking of is: parse the heredoc as a literal string, remove the whitespace from the result, then interpret that as the equivalent inline q:* 00:04
sorear Should I be listening to the verbiage in #parrot? 00:09
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coldhead this parrot drama is scary for noobs 00:11
i feel like my parents are fighting
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colomon oh noez. 00:17
sorear Does anyone have any last minute requests before I tag niecza v2? 00:19
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PerlJam coldhead: don't worry too much. This is only the 4th or 5th time it's happened (and each time things have gotten better as a result) 00:27
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[Coke] it's not like parents, more like 2 uncles you only see a few times a year. no worries. ;) 00:49
[Coke] has flashbacks to Coleda Family fights and goes off to hide in a corner with a beer.
PerlJam At least this time you'll still see the uncles around on holidays when the dust settles
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[Coke] rakudo: Inf.int.say 00:54
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Method 'int' not found for invocant of class 'Num'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/sXkZh4NwPA␤»
[Coke] rakudo: Inf.Int.say
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«-9223372036854775808␤»
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[Coke] I'm goint to ask the rt admins to add a tag called "needstests". this work for folks? 00:59
PerlJam [Coke]: +1 from me 01:00
pmichaud I thought we had such a tag already?
[Coke] (I think I'd really like a new status, but this seems less invasive)
pmichaud or did we just decide that assigning to moritz++ was sufficient?
I know we asked for a tag to be added of some sort, which the rt admins did for us
I don't remember what it was.
[Coke] I don't see one with "test" in the name. 01:01
I see "testcommitted"
s/one/relevant one/
pmichaud okay. proceed then -- maybe the rtadmins will say "didn't you already ask for ...?" and remind us :) 01:02
or perhaps they will smite us down with gigantic bolts of lightning.
pmichaud hopes for the former and not the latter.
jdhore pmichaud, Good work on that episode of FLOSS weekly a few months ago...I loved it. 01:04
pmichaud merlyn++ definitely gets the credit. he just asked questions and let me ramble, and then edited it into something coherent, I think. But thanks! :) 01:05
PerlJam or had someone edit it into something coherent :)
[Coke] heh. I listend to that episode and have skipped every one since. ;) 01:06
coldhead it's nice how merlyn is now interested in perl 6
well done there
[Coke] pmichaud: feedback on 73148 ? 01:08
PerlJam coldhead: have you seen learningperl6.com?
[Coke] rakudo: say (1 ^^ 1).WHAT 01:09
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool()␤»
[Coke] rakudo: say (1 ^^ 1)
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
[Coke] rakudo: ~fail().say 01:10
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: ( no output )
coldhead i hadn't, thank you PerlJam 01:11
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dalek ecza: 79d5470 | sorear++ | docs/announce.v2:
Add URLs to v2 announce
 01:45
ecza: f937065 | sorear++ | FETCH_URL:
Update bootstrap to v2
sorear v2 announce sent. 01:49
colomon sorear++
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snarkyboojum as far as I know learningperl6.com hasn't changed for years :) I wonder if merlyn and co still plan to write it? 02:11
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snarkyboojum twitter.com/#!/merlyn/status/32263043912040448 02:27
well, at least it's a "possible reality" now ;)
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snarkyboojum pretty nice introductory perl6 preso! mfollett.com/finalized-perl-6-talk-slides 02:59
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karb after building perl6 from the tarball when I run perl6 it runs fine. But after I reboot my machine and then run perl6 it throws a segmentation fault. Is anybody else having this problem? 03:42
coldhead that's awful :( 03:43
is it an environment variable maybe? set during the build?
karb I tried with gdb the fault seems to occur in src/packfile/api.c:941
i think so
colomon Have you executed "make install" ?
karb seems there is some env variable thats set during make, but is lost when i reboot 03:44
ya.. i tried make install after reboot
it does not work
has anybody else reported this? 03:45
pmichaud phenny: tell coke okay to close 73148 (sorry for not responding sooner)
phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when coke is around.
pmichaud or do I have to say "[coke]" for the nick?
phenny: tell [Coke] okay to close 73148 (sorry for not responding sooner)
phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when [Coke] is around.
colomon karb: not that I know of. What platform are you on? 03:46
pmichaud that'll get it :)
karb: what OS?
karb colomon: I'm on ubuntu 10.10
pmichaud it works fine for me on kubuntu 10.10
colomon karb: and your problem is with the latest Rakudo Star?
pmichaud and under linux, makefiles can't really set environment variables that get lost at reboot
(environment variables are always local to the make command itself, not the shell that runs it) 03:47
karb yes in rakudo star
pmichaud any chance you have an older version of rakudo or parrot installed on this machine somewhere?
it may be grabbing the wrong library
karb this is a fresh star install
pmichaud have you ever installed star or parrot on this machine before? 03:48
karb no
pmichaud hmmmm
I don't have any clues at the moment. 03:49
That's not something any of us have encountered before, afaik
sorear any time a reboot mysteriously changes something, you should suspect the platform 03:50
karb ok. I'll try digging this. maybe there is some library path issue
sorear computers are supposed to be deterministic. nondeterministic faults suggest hardware failures, in particular RAM issues; I'd try memtest86+ next 03:51
karb actually, if I build the same star tarball on another machine everything works fine.. so its something with my laptop
sorear (however, I've been burned, so I'm probably not the fairest)
karb no problem.. i'll dig through this. Just thought to ask if anyone else faced this on ubuntu 03:52
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diakopter pmichaud: I'm confused by "if I'm writing an APL compiler, I don't want the whole Perl 6 runtime" 04:03
(why would you want the whole Perl 6 runtime?)
(which parts wouldn't you want?) 04:04
sorear niecza:
p6eval niecza v2: ( no output )
sorear yay, it updated the tags ok 04:05
pmichaud diakopter: that's the purpose of NQP. it lets you use perl 6 syntax and grammars to write compilers without having to also have the entire Perl 6 runtime available for the compiler to run
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sorear APL was designed to not require a fancy parser 04:06
it is, iirc, a regular language
diakopter sorear: I'm sure you still see his point, though
pmichaud so, if I want to use Perl 6 syntax to write an APL compiler, I can do so without also having to have all of builtin classes and methods that a Perl 6 implementation would expect to rely upon. 04:07
diakopter I guess I don't understand how those are a problem
(yet) 04:08
sorear I just think APL is a bad example - APL would love to have parallel reduce operators on multidimensional compact arrays and other p6runtime goodies
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pmichaud yes, pick any other language then 04:08
I mean to run dynamically, not compile to binary and execute that
APL might be a bad example -- I was just trying to pick a language that was none of Perl/Python/Ruby/etc. 04:09
Tcl might be a better one.
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diakopter does that even need a parser? 04:10
allbery_b yes, it's just a very simple one
pmichaud yes
diakopter 'twas a joke. 04:11
pmichaud github.com/partcl/partcl-nqp/blob/...Grammar.pm might be an example
allbery_b isn't the point more that you might not want all the baggage necessary to call eval?
pmichaud diakopter: obtw, I'm thinking of moving nqp-nom to a new repository in the next couple of days. Anything I need to know to not overly impact your work with nqp? 04:12
I was planning to migrate all of the branches (except master) across
diakopter I still don't get the point of "without also having to have all of builtin classes and methods that a Perl 6 implementation would expect to rely on"
pmichaud Perl 6 has a very large runtime footprint
diakopter I haven't ever looked at nqp-nom 04:13
pmichaud much of which wouldn't be needed for a compiler
diakopter: is any of the stuff you've been working on in the nqp-rx repo?
diakopter nope, I've never had a commit bit there, I don't think.
pmichaud okay
diakopter nor nom
pmichaud have you read the "NQP Roadmap 2011.01" post yet? 04:14
diakopter I didn't even know there was a parrot edition of 6model until two weeks ago :D
I knew only about the ones in jnthn/6model
oh, yes, I read your blog post in the past hour 04:15
along with backlogged the past 24 hours of #parrot out of curiosity
pmichaud it's been an interesting day there, yes :)
okay, I'll take that as being that it's okay for us to move nqp-nom into its own repo, and we'll hope to eventually merge your nqp work into that repo at an appropriate time in the future 04:16
now I just need to check with mberends on the stuff he's been working on :)
diakopter that's all in jnthn/6model
pmichaud okay 04:17
good
over the next few weeks we'll be migrating past/post to be implemented in nqp, I think -- borrowing heavily from the pieces that others have already put together
diakopter there are "java" and "net" dirs... it's waiting for a "bird" dir
all of past (including regexes)? 04:18
pmichaud yes, hopefully
that's the expectation
diakopter hrm. 04:19
that one in particular will require the most work on both clr and java.
pmichaud yes, but I'm hoping it'll be easier to deal with as nqp source than anything else 04:20
I think jnthn++ has already migrated much of Cursor and other components to nqp source
anyway, if you see us taking a step that looks problematic, feel free to say something. 04:21
I'm hoping there won't be (m)any
diakopter but
he migrated much of the parrot-backend edition of Cursor... I guess he didn't use the Cursor I ported? 04:22
pmichaud he may have 04:23
I didn't look yet to see exactly what was done -- I'm hoping to do that as part of migrating nqp-nom into a new repo.
I may have mis-understood or mis-stated something, then.
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diakopter I don't see a Cursor.pm there (yet) 04:24
pmichaud okay, he may be working on it but not completed it yet then
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diakopter pmichaud: is nqpbook on hiatus? 04:29
or is it just wayyyy far to the side on the plinko board of round tuits 04:30
pmichaud briefly; I'm thinking I'll write some tutorials and examples to my journal as we work on the new nqp, and hopefully those can form the core of an nqpbook
diakopter giggles as his own joke
pmichaud I posted the roadmap to my journal today and the main comment I got back was "needs documentation"
so, it's not too far to the side 04:31
and the timing would be good now
diakopter pmichaud: were you imagining that the clr edition of Cursor.pm would be identical/one-in-the-same to the other editions? 04:32
(or would you allow for some specialization) 04:33
pmichaud I'm pretty sure that's what jnthn and I are aiming for, yes.
we might allow for specialization for optimization reasons, yes.
diakopter here's sortof a larger question (hoping you have time) 04:34
so... the regex compiler for nqpbird would still target post/pir, I assume....? 04:36
pmichaud post, yes. I'm not sure sure it'll be pir specific at that point.
diakopter what will compile post? and to what? 04:37
pmichaud I've been thinking will have post-to-vm compilers
diakopter oh god.
that is what my questions have been dancing around.
pmichaud if that won't work, we can have separate past-to-vm compilers
diakopter I didn't dare suggest it 04:38
well we've already got the 1800 lines of past-to-vm compilers
pmichaud but if past is flexible enough to handle lots of hlls, I'm thinking post can be flexible enough to handle a variety of backends
diakopter so that may be a miscommunication b/t you & jnthn, or different plans.
pmichaud and post won't look _anything_ like it does now -- not even for parrot/pir
the current version of post is very string oriented. the new version of post (which bacek++ has been working on) models the parts of the vm more directly, with separate types for registers and the like. 04:39
bacek's version of post goes straight to .pbc without needing PIR
anyway, if we end up having separate posts for the vms and separate past compilers for the different posts, I'm okay with that. 04:40
we should still be able to share a lot of code between them, I think.
diakopter for the clr, 6model already has a decently sufficient model of CIL as its assembler and "DNST" as its PAST, ish. 04:41
pmichaud yes, I'd need to look at that a bit. So far neither jnthn++ nor I have detected a miscommunication between us... but part of that is because I'm still fairly flexible on the overall design 04:42
diakopter waves hands in wild ovoids
pmichaud yes, there's some of that as well, following in grand Perl 6 tradition :)
diakopter based on this, I believe I'll halt my work on nqpclr-rx (or continue the halt from November or whenever) and wait until someone tells me the regex compiler should be targetting a clr stack machine or post. 04:45
pmichaud diakopter: okay, that seems reasonable. I suspect we'll have an answer for you on that sooner rather than later (perhaps even as soon as jnthn++ reads this and says "oh, pmichaud++ is wrong" :) 04:46
diakopter and I won't emit milk puddles from my tear ducts if all my work was "wasted". :}
pmichaud no way is it "wasted"
we needed to have some idea of what's possible, your work at minimum tells us that 04:47
diakopter oh, I know, especially not to myself; I learned a lot
pmichaud all of the clr and jvm work has really helped us formulate a stronger approach overall -- jnthn identifies that as a key component of the overall work all the time 04:48
and it's very important to him (and me) that you and mberends find a way to continue what you've been working on
and that all of us find a way to bring it all together under an "nqp" umbrella :)
diakopter meh. I've "thrown away" so much work I'm numb to it, except when I take it personally..... oh wait... 04:49
pmichaud I know the feeling all too well -- I've done the same. 04:50
three separate implementations of PGE, an implementation of nqp-rx, various false starts with TGE and PAST and POST, etc. etc. 04:51
a couple of implementations of what eventually became Rakudo
:)
diakopter and several more to come! 04:52
:P
pmichaud yes, indeed. but economies and capitalism are built on the the principal of "creative destruction" :-) 04:53
diakopter thought that was a Marxist notion
oh, a Marxist framing of capitalism 04:54
pmichaud "
From the 1950s onwards, the term "creative destruction" has become more readily identified with the Austrian-American economist Joseph Schumpeter,[4] who adapted and popularized it as a theory of economic innovation and progress. The term, as used by Schumpeter, bears little resemblance with how it used by Marx." 04:55
justatheory Marx++
pmichaud looks like wikipedia needs an edit to "how it *was* used by Marx."
diakopter wikipedia needs lots of things 04:56
Marx--
justatheory lol
pmichaud oh, I always somewhat liked Groucho.
justatheory Harpo's letterhead: kottke.org/11/01/harpo-marx-letterhead 04:57
diakopter pmichaud: where might I find a walkthrough/tutorial (or just theory) on identifying & analyzing basic blocks in program trees? 04:59
(or anyone)
pmichaud I don't have a reference off the top of my head; probably a compiler theory / implementation book or something like that 05:00
diakopter I mean, "compiler textbooks" isn't really a helpful answer... (which one explains that well)
oh
pmichaud I've never found compiler texts to be of much use in actually implementing a compiler :)
diakopter I suppose the algorithm on wikipedia is .. ok 05:01
hm, I wonder how general I can get it... (to allow also for future phase inlining) 05:03
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pmichaud afk for me, time for sleep 05:06
sorear has any of my CLR work been at all noticed? 05:09
diakopter :P 05:10
"by whom" 05:11
"those who matter"
"those who matter to whom"
pmichaud sorear: I've noticed it. I've noticed that it's apparently working. :) 05:19
after thinking about it a bit more, I think it more likely that initially at least, we'll have separate PAST::Compiler sections for each backend. But that's still a preliminary guess -- we'll know more as we get into the details. 05:20
afk again, for sleep
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dalek ecza: c6596ea | sorear++ | docs/nam.pod:
Start documenting opcodes for pmurias
 06:52
sorear out..
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masak hola, zebras. 08:53
huh, niecza and yapsi releases almost coincide this month. :) 08:54
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moritz_ Q: How does a geek know it's a new month? A: he has lots of mailing list subscription reminders in his inbox 09:03
masak :) 09:04
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mathw saluton masak 09:19
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masak bonan matenon, mathw. 09:23
moritz_ is a saluton a quantized greeting? :-)
masak :P
masak considers replying "yes" just to make moritz_ happy
greeting particles tend to interact with the thankfulness particle, the "dankon". 09:25
moritz_ regarding discretized stuff, I have industrial disease :-) 09:27
masak :) 09:28
overdose of academions... 09:29
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moritz_ :-) 09:30
Canyon hi
masak hi Canyon.
Canyon I have a beginner question
masak shoot.
mathw Excellent
Canyon I want to store some subroutines and global variables in a different file, without using modules(because I'm not experienced enough to write them) 09:31
masak it's not that difficult.
but go on. 09:32
or was that it? :)
Canyon is there a way to do this, without sacrificing showing of errors?
*the
moritz_ learning to write and use modules is easier than reinventing the module system
(this applies both to Perl 5 and Perl 6) 09:33
masak Canyon: create a file A.pm -- put your stuff in there. in another file, write 'use A;'
Canyon I've already written the subroutines
masak Canyon: that's it.
Canyon I don't actually need modules
moritz_ you do
masak sounds like you do.
mathw Modules are how you include things from other files, in general
And they really are very very simple
moritz_ Canyon: a module is nothing magical to be afraid of. It's just a piece of code in a file. 09:34
masak you *could* slurp-and-eval the other file. but please don't do that. it would make all of us sad.
Canyon masak, if I'd use A.pm, would I still be informed about erros, when implementing new subroutines?
masak Canyon: definitely.
Canyon: you can even try compiling A.pm alone, with the -c flag.
(to see if there are syntax errors, etc) 09:35
but even if you don't, you'll get error reports from both files whenever you run the other file.
Canyon I've used require function_index.pl and the "1;" line , and I recall that the script did not work without mentioning the line that caused the problems
moritz_, I'm writing simple scripts 09:36
masak Canyon: maybe you didn't do 'use strict;' and 'use warnings;'...?
Canyon only use strict;
masak use warnings and you'll get more informative warnings :) 09:37
Canyon I was reading here and I got scared: www.slac.stanford.edu/grp/scs/net/t...frame.html
:)
moritz_ Canyon: don't close yourself to the best solution, just because you think it's difficult
Canyon I really want to avoid modules at the moment.
I already have the subroutines
it takes time to modify them
the 1; line is still needed, right masak? 09:38
moritz_ not in Perl 6
masak in Perl 5, it is.
Canyon: you're aware that you're in #perl6 and we're helping you out of pure kindness, right? :P
moritz_ Canyon: that link describe not only how to write modules, but a whole distribution. You don't need the distribution part 09:39
masak Canyon: what moritz_ said. a module is simply a .pm file that you 'use'
nothing complicated about it.
moritz_ Canyon: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_module has a not-so-scary explanation
Canyon oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that they are so much different. In this case, thank you.
masak the '1;' at the end is needed because that's Perl 5's mechanism for saying "module works fine". 09:40
Canyon: no need to apologise. this helps us remember *why* Perl 6 is different ;)
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masak Canyon: had you ended up in the wrong Perl 5 channel, people might have called you a moron. (which you're decidedly not.) 09:41
Canyon :))
actually I'm a noob when it comes to perl
I'm used to c++
moritz_ that's quite a shift of perspectives 09:42
masak still, the worst parts of C++ ought to prepare one adequately for the worst parts of Perl. :P
Canyon I'm no C++ expert either 09:43
mathw Not necessarily
The worst parts of C++ are quite different :)
mathw does C++ for a living
masak oh, I'm not saying they're not different.
I'm saying they're, objectively, worse.
mathw I suppose you get used to the horror after a while, but at least neither of them are Java
masak wait... you dislike Java more than C++? 09:44
mathw yup
masak digests that
moritz_ java has the philosophy "it looks less complicated if we force you to write more lines to say the same thing"
masak absolutely. 09:45
Java is a DSL to turn XML into stack traces.
moritz_ right :-) 09:46
masak still, as much as I object to the culture sometimes, I'm generally impressed by the JLS and the APIs. 09:47
the one big omission is closures, of course.
moritz_ it's quite interesting to observe how the lack of closures influences APIs
masak that's a blog post right there.
mathw I object to Java on the basis that it doesn't trust its programmers
masak as MJD once said, in thirty or so years, people will ridicule languages without closures as we today ridicule languages without recursion. 09:48
moritz_ or languages without lexical variables
mathw Was that thirty or so years ago? Because, you know, *point and laugh*
moritz_ mathw: so much for unevenly distributed future :-) 09:49
mathw It's actually hard to use current C++ sometimes, because I know we've got closures in the next standard...
masak mathw: I'm inclined to agree with you about the trust thing. the discussion about OO led me to realize that private attribute and the like are not there for security, but purely for convention.
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mathw well in C++ you can certainly get hold of private attributes if you want them 09:50
masak the discussion we had on perl6-language a couple months back, that is.
mathw just some simple pointer arithmetic and poking in the header files
masak mathw: right.
mathw and that's one of the stronger private-hiding languages
masak and that's *always* possible, unless you close the user off from the metal. 09:51
mathw yeah
but that's not really the point of my objection to Java
it doesn't trust its users to use operator overloading responsibly
masak right.
moritz_ in C++ you can also just use a preprocessor macro that changes 'private' and 'protected' to 'public'
mathw So I can't write a String-like class in Java
masak moritz_: o.O 09:52
mathw moritz_: true :)
I hadn't thought of that
the preprocessor can be useful, but one of its uses is opening cans of highly poisonous worms
far better to have macros baked into the language :) 09:54
Canyon may I interrupt you again for a second?
moritz_ that's why language modifications are explicitly scoped in Perl 6
Canyon: sure 09:55
Canyon I've modified the files
using .pm and 1;
Ubut I get this error ndefined subroutine &main::push_startsearch called at C:\Documents and Settings 09:56
\Administrator\Desktop\workspace\script.pl line 52.
the subroutine takes args
moritz_ Canyon: did you export that subroutine?
Canyon yes
moritz_ perldoc Exporter
Canyon oh
ok, thank you. :) 09:57
Tene Interesting, 1.0 release of EFL: www.enlightenment.org/p.php?p=news/...news_id=28 09:58
masak <hyperbole>surely, the end times are near!</hyperbole> 09:59
what's next, Duke Nukem Forever? *snort*
moritz_ masak: nope, The Hurd 1.0 is still missing, can't be end times 10:00
masak ah. right.
moritz_ and PHP 6
masak pffft, the PHP guys just want a version 6 like big brother Perl... :P
frettled masak: Duke Nukem Forever has a launch date now, 2011-05-06 in our part of the world. 10:01
Tene I hear Perl 6 folks are claiming to have a release these days.
frettled s/launch/release/, sorry
masak frettled: I know...
frettled Tene: That sounds weird :D
masak Tene: yeah but I meant official releases.
moritz_ Tene: yeah, but it's not a *real* release *cough*
masak you know, the kind that doesn't suck. 10:02
masak hides
frettled The release, my friend, is blowing in the wind.
masak I think I know an official release when I see one!
moritz_ masak: like a yapsi release? :-) 10:03
masak this feels weird. how did I end up trolling #perl6? :P
10:03 Canyon left
moritz_ masak: you ran out of dankons :-) 10:04
masak *lol*
moritz_: speaking of which... one Yapsi release coming up later today.
I'm optimistic, and hope to be able to release the FUTURE with this release.
might even hold the release off a day or so to get it in.
moritz_ masak: I hope it's shortly followed by a p4 review (or another blog post preparing it) 10:05
masak it will be, don't worry.
frettled So we're back to the future again, eh?
masak ooh, I hadn't considered the Marty McFly potential! :) 10:06
mathw groan 10:07
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moritz_ preemtively calls the pun police 10:08
mathw You know what I hate? Languages without multiple return values!
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mathw and APIs which require arguments to be specified in the most awkward way possible 10:09
moritz_ mathw: then you'll love the API of the MUMPS library
it expects an array of about 70 entries 10:10
mathw fun
I'm afraid Win32 is quite bad enough for me
moritz_ and writing some weird values in some of these entries changes the meaning and format of other entries
and their combination control what the function does in the end
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moritz_ and all in FORTRAN 10:10
with no bounds checking on any arrays 10:11
mathw that sounds enormously entertaining
moritz_ no type checking
mathw: yes. Until you actually try to use it :-)
mathw I learned FORTRAN once
it seemed like a better alternative to BBC BASIC, and tuition was available
Fortunately I learned C not long afterwards 10:12
moritz_ and I forgot, some of these array items would be changed by the function, and be part of the output. Of course. 10:13
mathw naturally
it's a classic of API obfuscation
muddle around your input and output parameters
mix them together in unhealthy ways
flussence gets flashbacks to php array functions 10:14
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mathw bool add(int *arr) { arr[2] = arr[0] + arr[1]; return true; } 10:14
flussence haystack then needle, except when it's the other way around, and not the explode() function which takes them in either order
mathw PHP has some lovely bits of API... 10:15
*cough*
Tene mathw: www.tnx.nl/php.html#args 10:16
Canyon C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\workspace>script.pl
Can't locate Workspace/FunctionIndex.pm in @INC (@INC contains: C:/Documents and
Settings/Administrator/Desktop/Workspace C:/My PF/Perl/site/lib C:/My PF/Perl/l
ib .) at C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\workspace\script.pl lin
e 10.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Des
ktop\workspace\script.pl line 10.
moritz_ Canyon: please don't paste multiple lines of error messages into IRC channels - use a nopaste facility like nopaste.snit.ch/ for that 10:17
Canyon ok
masak Canyon: @INC is an array of all the directories to look in for your module. 10:19
moritz_ use lib '.'; # might help
masak moritz_++
moritz_ if the module exists in the FunctionIndex.pm file in the Workspace subdirectory 10:20
Canyon my mistake, I've pasted the wrong path for lib 10:21
but I still get that error that I got in the first place 10:22
Undefined subroutine &main::push_startsearch called at
moritz_ then (1) you didn't set up push_startsearch to be exported by default and (2) you didn't import it 10:23
doing either helps
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Canyon our @EXPORT = qw(push_startsearch); 10:24
use Workspace::FunctionIndex qw(:ALL);
moritz_ and did you set up the :ALL tag?> 10:25
Canyon doesn't work without it either
moritz_ our %EXPORT_TAGS = (all => qw/push_startsearch/); 10:26
erm, ':ALL' => qw/.../
no, without the colon, sorry
moritz_ just read perldoc Exporter 10:27
Canyon shouldn't our @EXPORT = qw(push_startsearch); sufice? 10:28
moritz_ it should 10:29
baest Canyon: yes, but then you should use 'use Workspace::FunctionIndex;'
Canyon yes, that's what i did
and I still get the same error
moritz_ Canyon: please show the whole start of the module
(via nopaste) 10:30
Canyon ok, let me post it
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Canyon nopaste.info/0fe6894210.html 10:33
moritz_ Canyon: well, you're not in package Workspace::FunctionIndex 10:34
Canyon: but in Function::Index
no wonder it can't find that sub
Canyon changed it to package Workspace::FunctionIndex; 10:35
still same error 10:36
baest Canyon: you will probably need to nopaste the code that uses Workspace::FunctionIndex too 10:37
moritz_ Canyon: did you safe the file after changing? 10:38
*save
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Canyon yes 10:39
I'm nopaste.info/b5991393ec.html
masak excuse me, where is this push_startsearch sub defined? 10:43
moritz_ and you define sub push_startsearch in the module right below the end of the previous nopaste?
masak (I haven't been following along too closely, sorry) 10:44
Canyon in functionindex 10:45
let me post the whole relevant part for functionindex
but, maybe global_variables.pm it's causing some problems
could it be possible?
it holds a few variables 10:46
Tene Canyon: unlikely.
Canyon that's it
ok, let me post functionindex + push_startsearch
10:46 REPLeffect joined
Canyon nopaste.info/3a745c91fe.html 10:48
this is it
moritz_ Canyon: you still ahve 'package Function::Index" 10:50
Canyon no way
moritz_ 11:35 < Canyon> changed it to package Workspace::FunctionIndex;
Canyon yes, i did and it still is changed
moritz_ either you our your nopaste lies. 10:51
line 08 in nopaste.info/3a745c91fe.html
Canyon I edited the functionindex.pm file, but I kept the header in a temp txt file
and I've just added the sub_startsearch subroutine without realizing that I've changed the header 10:52
my mistake
let me repost
moritz_ Canyon: it doesn't work like that. Paste verbatim. Single characters decide whether programs work or not
Canyon but I assure you that FunctionIndex.pm has the correct package
moritz_ ... which makes me wonder what else you might have mispasted 10:53
Canyon nopaste.info/27615c186b.html 10:54
this is the original
with all the wiki comments and stuff
nothing else mispasted
moritz_ Canyon: nopaste.info/27615c186b.html 10:55
sorry
mispaste :-)
masak Canyon: pasting is a fine art. don't fret if you don't get it right the first few times :)
moritz_ our @EXPORT = qw(push_startsearch);
now @EXPORT doesn't contain set_searchname anymore
is that intentional? 10:56
if you want to export multiple routines, use a single line of our @EXPORT = qw/first_routine second_routine/;
anyway, I need to leave, real life is calling 10:57
masak however, that can't be the problem here.
since push_startsearch is the missing sub.
Canyon masak, I used a temp txt file in order to get rid of the comments
that's why I mispasted
masak nod 10:58
it's ok. it's just easier to debug the code that was run, is all :)
moritz_ which also has the disadvantage of making the line numbers not match those in the error messages
really gone&
Canyon bye, thanks for helping me :)
masak I'm going to try to put together a minimal example that works for me. 10:59
maybe you can then mutate that, piece by piece, into what you want.
Canyon no 11:01
I've wasted too much time of yours anyway 11:02
I'll debug it myself.
masak no problem, I'm doing household stuff anyway.
absolutely. I was hoping you would :)
Canyon: here, I got it working on the first attempt: gist.github.com/805717 11:05
Canyon: see if you can get that small example working, too. 11:06
just create the files 'A.pm' and 'test' in the same directory, and do 'perl test'.
Canyon ok
thank you
masak oh, and you're free to call it 'test.pl' if that's easier on Windows, I dunno.
Canyon: are you getting any results? 11:13
hm, alester++ recently expressed dismay over "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" being the de-facto manual for community interaction. maybe people here on #perl6 would be interested in producing a small set of wiki pages with some sort of Best Practices for things like making a nopaste, reporting a bug, etc. 11:14
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masak I'm imagining something very concrete and example-oriented, a bit the same way the SYNOPSIS sections help clarify Perl modules. 11:15
Canyon yes
it works
masak \o/
Canyon indeed 11:16
masak Canyon: that's great news. now you only need to find the significant difference between my script and yours :)
I'd suggest changing my script, piece by piece, into yours, and run it after each little change.
see where it breaks.
Canyon the only difference is that my subroutine has args and that i'm using another pm file that stores a few variables 11:17
masak could be something with Windows paths. could be a file is actually in the wrong place somehow. could be either of any number of things we can't think of now.
point is, you'll discover it on the way.
Canyon indeed
ok, thank you for support.
*your 11:18
masak no problem. and good luck.
Canyon yes, it's path related, it doesn't see even a dummy sub 11:20
i will solve it 11:21
masak nice!
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flussence Argh unicode drives me crazy sometimes... I'm working on some Catalyst thing at $dayjob, there's a "↓" in the header that usually displays fine. On one page with nothing special about it, that arrow gets double-utf8-encoded. WTF. </rant> 11:28
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moritz_ that's p5's crappy string model, not Unicode per se 11:29
flussence yeah, it works fine on every other page. I think I'll resign to just using HTML entities... 11:30
masak ♩ ♫ fixed in Perl 6 ♪ ♪ ♫
daxim the number of questions tagged perl+(encoding|unicode|utf-8) are surprisingly low compared with other languages 11:32
apejens it's because Other Languages (tm) fucked it up even worse :) 11:33
daxim on stackoverflow
flussence hey, PHP handles unicode just fine, provided you treat it as a dumb pipe between the browser and database!
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arnsholt I think that can be amended to "PHP is just fine, provided you treat it as a dumb pipe between the browser and database" =) 11:34
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Juerd arnsholt: "Anything is fine, provided you treat it as a dumb pipe" 12:04
"Dumb pipes are fine"
moritz_ man cat 12:06
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arnsholt True, true =) 12:10
flussence php takes the dumb part a bit too seriously 12:14
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[Coke] we now have a "testneeded" tag on RT - we can use that now instead of assigning to moritz. 12:36
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phenny [Coke]: 03:45Z <pmichaud> tell [Coke] okay to close 73148 (sorry for not responding sooner) 12:36
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[Coke] closed. 12:38
so to mark a test as testneeded, it's Custom Fields -> Tags -> testneeded. 12:39
be nice if someone whipped up a short URL for a report that showed all the non-closed perl6 tickets that had that tag. 12:40
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flussence [Coke]: I gave it a try, even tried to RTFM for the search box. Got nowhere. :( 12:54
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flussence I think I've tried all the combinations of /[Tt]ags? \s* = \s* (') (?:fulltext:)? testneeded \1 /x I can think of in the URL, anyway. 12:57
flussence leaves it to the people who know how it works. 12:59
masak flussence: tried using "Advanced Search"?
sorry, "Edit Search"/
takadonet morning all 13:00
flussence I would if I'd seen that. Guess it only shows up when logged in...
masak oh, you have to be logged in. 13:01
takadonet: \o
rt.perl.org/rt3/Search/Results.html...estneeded'
flussence well no wonder I couldn't guess it :)
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flussence also, slightly nicer-looking URL: rt.perl.org/rt3/Search/Results.html...estneeded' 13:05
masak flussence++
flussence hmm, I wonder if there's some URL::Pretty module on CPAN for doing that 13:06
[Coke] or just use xrl.us 13:09
flussence but that's cheating! :P 13:10
masak ah, URL shorteners. double-edged sword of the web.
colomon rakudo: say 2.2250738585072012e-308
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«2.2250738585072e-308␤»
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flussence (well, CPAN's got plenty of things for url shortener sites, but not one for this... guess that's another thing for me to do) 13:12
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colomon rakudo: say 2.2250738585072012e-308 13:18
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«2.2250738585072e-308␤»
colomon ah.
www.exploringbinary.com/java-hangs-...2012e-308/
(in case people thought I had gone insaner.) 13:19
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flussence Java too ?! 13:21
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colomon yup. 13:26
apparently you can shut down the compiler or the runtime that way. crazy, eh?
masak o.O
colomon also Clojure and Scala, apparently.
flussence now I just have to wonder... 13:27
niecza: say 2.2250738585072012e-308
masak killed by MATHS. hah!
p6eval niecza v2-1-gc6596ea: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Action method escale not yet implemented at /tmp/waW5WvhgSn line 1 (EOF):␤------> say 2.2250738585072012e-308⏏<EOL>␤␤Action method dec_number not yet implemented at /tmp/waW5WvhgSn line 1 (EOF):␤------> say
..2.2250738585072012e…
colomon .NET is supposed to be fine.
:)
though I suppose mono might have issues.
apparently GCC's libraries have a related issue. 13:28
flussence yeah, I read that stuff. It's because they use the 80-bit x87 registers in intel chips and don't truncate the values to 64-bit as they should, for the sake of "optimisation"... 13:29
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flussence (and it also means I'm vindicated for compiling everything on my netbook with -mfpmath=sse :) 13:31
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Layla_91 jnthn: I'm became a obj-c developer ^_^ no more sys admining! \o/ 14:34
jnthn Layla_91: Yay! Congrats! :D 14:36
Can't object to that change. :)
14:36 hudnix joined
V15170R if i want to implement a language in parrot, i should use nqp? what about pir/pasm? 14:37
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jnthn V15170R: Yes, using nqp is the best choice. NQP itself is about to undergo soem changes, but it'll mostly be transparent to language developers. 14:38
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jnthn e.g. any grammar and actions you write now will keep on working 14:38
teaching & 14:41
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colomon is listening to "Don't Stop Me Now". He blames masak. 14:46
[Coke] jnthn: there is a macport for parrot, at least. 14:49
[Coke] could probably build one for rakudo if there isn't one already.
[Coke] never uses the macports, though. ;)
shortcircuit is thinking about Perl 6 and Gentoo. 14:50
Right now, Perl exists under a dev-perl/* partition. Should Perl 6 be under something like dev-perl6? 14:51
masak colomon: *grin*
colomon masak: been a good long time since I listened to anything but FBG and Bicycle off of Jazz. 14:52
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shortcircuit I started thinking about this as a result of the niecza announcement. If niecza runs on mono, and would presumably run on gentoo, then, ideally, it'd need an ebuild as well. 14:52
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ggoebel now I know why all the power company trucks have been sitting outside all morning... 14:58
[Coke] ggoebel: where you at? 14:59
ggoebel [Coke]: ATL
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PerlJam greetings #perl6 15:09
colomon \o
masak PerlJam! \o/
daxim masak, there are 21 matchsticks on the table. we both take alternating turns. each player must remove at least 1, but maximal 4 sticks. who takes the last one, loses. who goes first?
masak daxim: that game is .3333
flussence shortcircuit: sounds sensible - there's separate dev-php[45] categories for that reason (stuff which only works on one major version) 15:10
daxim bonus question: what is the generalised formula for other values of 21, 1, 4?
masak daxim: but it's also misere, because of the reversed winning condition...
daxim: if it's a normal game, it's easier to analyze straight off.
daxim: but I can imagine this is one of the solved misere games. 15:11
flussence (in an ideal world the package manager would be smart enough to know how to use external tools and it'd just pull from cpan directly...)
daxim surely. also, it's not vastly more difficult than you think, "just add one"
shortcircuit Admittedly, I'm a little worried about niecza, based on the v2 announcement. 15:12
masak daxim: right. it's already quite simplified because there is only one heap.
shortcircuit I recall trying to run an app compiled for mono on Debian, and it failed on be; I didn't have the exact version of mono that it was compiled to. I'm not sure how that would play out in a source-distro scenario. 15:13
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daxim I'll provide the answers in an hour or so, if you want to experiment a bit with the numbers meanwhile 15:15
masak that's a teasingly short deadline... I'm at $work! :) 15:17
daxim okay, then tomorrow 15:18
masak deal.
I think I see what you mean by "just add one", though.
so it shouldn't be dreadfully difficult. just need to get the numbers right.
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PerlJam huh. merlyn answered snarkyboojum on twitter about LP6 but didn't reply to my email 15:20
mathw Quick sneaky Perl 5 thing: the character class [.-_] is a range from . to _, not ., - and _, correct?
flussence - is only literal when it's adjacent to the [ or ], iirc 15:21
mathw indeed that's what I thought 15:22
evidently the person who wrote this code thought it was a literal there
and now it's surprising people by failing to match hyphens
masak TEST YOUR REGEXES 15:23
flussence .u .
phenny U+002E FULL STOP (.)
flussence .u -
phenny U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS (-)
flussence I guess you could write [--_] :)
.u . - 15:24
phenny U+0F02 TIBETAN MARK GTER YIG MGO -UM RNAM BCAD MA (༂)
U+0F03 TIBETAN MARK GTER YIG MGO -UM GTER TSHEG MA (༃)
U+0F13 TIBETAN MARK CARET -DZUD RTAGS ME LONG CAN (༓) [...]
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flussence well, that was unexpected. 15:24
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flussence .u .,- 15:24
phenny U+002E FULL STOP (.)
U+002C COMMA (,)
U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS (-)
flussence oh.
mathw masak: evidently nobody tested this one with hyphens. I will amend the tests, of course. 15:25
flussence shortcircuit: I shouldn't imagine too many problems with niecza, just checked and mono 2.8.2 is already marked stable, and it seems to install everything needed by default anyway 15:26
masak mathw++ 15:29
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 15:31
moritz_ good morning pmichaud 15:33
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colomon \o, pmichaud 15:46
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colomon just used scp to copy five novels to his phone while his wife was talking on it. (living in the future)++ 15:47
moritz_ (unvenly distribution of future)+- 15:48
mathw the future is expensive :(
masak rakudo: sub postfix:<+->($x is rw) { $x++; $x-- }; my $future = 42; $future+-; say $future 15:49
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«42␤»
masak \o/
PerlJam Does that mean the +-- operator is an expression of "one step forward, two steps back"? :) 15:51
colomon one step forward, one step back 15:53
moritz_ uhm, that code should die 15:54
no wait, masak did you an extra variable
PerlJam wonders what it would take for "perlbrew installl perl6" to actually install rakudo 15:57
er, with the appropriate number of ells
masak extra variable? I used just the right amount of variables :P 16:00
moritz_ yes, I thought you'd have called 42+-
masak that should indeed die.
rakudo: sub postfix:<+->($x is rw) { $x++; $x-- }; 42+-; say 'alive, OH NOES'
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in 'postfix:<+->' at line 7454:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/zZ3TJfvuYX␤»
masak and it does. 16:01
rakudo++
flussence rakudo: rakudo++
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &rakudo␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/T_AY3Ehmp0␤»
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takadonet my god bioperl is slow in reading genbank files! 17:31
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abraxxa i'm looking for a way to get the number of matching elements from two arrays 18:05
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[Coke] abraxxa: in perl 6? 18:06
abraxxa of course, else i wouldn't ask here
moritz_ define "matching"
pmichaud are there any duplicates within an array? 18:07
PerlJam abraxxa: we sometimes get people asking for Perl 5 help in here, so it's not unreasonable to make sure :)
abraxxa no dups
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pmichaud rakudo: my @a = <a b c d e f g h i>; my @b = <a e i o u>; say +@a.grep(any(@b)); # maybe? 18:07
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«3␤»
abraxxa i was visiting a friend last weekend who gave tuition to a fellow student in c#
ash_ are you talking about an array union? 18:08
abraxxa and the guy hadn't any knowledge in basic coding
so i started to fix his c# code (infinite loop because of a bool error val he passed around) and then started to write it in perl 5
after an hour i remembered the pick method of perl 6 and started doing the same in perl 6 18:09
pmichaud abraxxa: so, I suggest +@array1.grep(any(@array2))
rakudo: my @a = <a b c d e f g h i>; my @b = <a e i o u>; say ~@a.grep(any(@b)); # maybe?
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«a e i␤»
abraxxa so what i have already is the input of 5 + 2 numbers, in the range of 1..50 and 1..9 and the random picking of winning numbers
now i want to compare the user-chosen numbers with the winning ones 18:10
sjohnson trying to beat the odds and strike it rich?
use .pick
abraxxa it's an EuroMillionen simulator
i'll paste my code
sjohnson
.oO(was .pick conveived of for lottery numbers?)
PerlJam sort them and iterate comparing for equality :)
abraxxa is there a favoured paste-page for #perl6? 18:11
moritz_ abraxxa: gist.github.com
18:11 MayDaniel left
pmichaud any will do. gist.github.com works if you need one 18:11
my @choices = (1..50).pick(5); my @winners = (1..50).pick(5); say ~@choices; say ~@winners; say +@winners.grep(any(@choices)); 18:12
rakudo: my @choices = (1..50).pick(5); my @winners = (1..50).pick(5); say ~@choices; say ~@winners; say +@winners.grep(any(@choices));
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«4 15 18 2 32␤25 37 15 3 36␤1␤»
pmichaud rakudo: my @choices = (1..50).pick(5); my @winners = (1..50).pick(5); say ~@choices; say ~@winners; say +@winners.grep(any(@choices));
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«48 30 42 43 29␤22 21 30 39 18␤1␤»
abraxxa gist.github.com/806301
sorry for the German user interaction 18:13
at least my var names don't contain Umlauts
pmichaud my @matching_numbers = @numbers.grep(any(@drawn_numbers));
abraxxa i can paste the wonderful c# code of the guy too if someone is interessted in how many lines such a thing can grow to
pmichaud that gives you the actual matching numbers. if you just want to know how many of them, use +@matching_numbers 18:14
abraxxa i hoped the ~~ operator will DWIM
moritz_ it does. grep() does a smart-matching for you 18:15
abraxxa having them might be needed later, but for now i just want to output how many matched
ash_ i am surprised there is no Intersection method/op/etc..
pmichaud there is. It's called .grep :-)
ash_ ya, true, its not hard to build with .grep(any(...)) 18:16
pmichaud @array ~~ @array2 checks for ordering as well as matches 18:17
abraxxa wonderful! 18:18
perl 6 makes this kind of code possible in much less lines 18:19
i've updated my gist, any other suggestions how to improve it? this is my first contact with perl 6 18:20
finding docs isn't that easy 18:21
btw, the C# code has 516 lines including a lot of c-style bracketing 18:22
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PerlJam That sounds like a good name for a book "Perl 6 -- First Contact" 18:22
abraxxa hehe 18:24
PerlJam And there would be plenty of opportunity to use quotes from space films. "My God ... it's full of stars" comes to mind immediately :)
abraxxa PerlJam++ 18:25
colomon hyperspace!
pmichaud phasers?
abraxxa Perl 6, from the makers of the Klingon language! 18:26
the only part of the code i don't like is the until loop around the prompt
Su-Shee first rule of aquisition: buy this perl 6 book. ;) 18:28
abraxxa kudos to szabgab.com/blog/2010/06/starting-w...erl-6.html for the inspiration
PerlJam Isn't IO::Prompt or something like that existant?
abraxxa but i switched the while to an until to better suit my needs and brain
i tried to install a p6 module using proto but failed because of our proxy
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flussence is disappointed to find that none of the chars in U+300..U+36F are valid in identifiers 18:30
abraxxa thanks for the help guys, i'm going home! 18:31
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abraxxa bye *wink* 18:34
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tadzik hello zebras 18:36
masak hi panda 18:37
Tene There isn't an Intersection op in core, but I've seen it in a Set module. 18:38
github.com/perl6/mu/tree/master/ext/Set probably
masak I wrote one for the Set class in Rakudo.
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moritz_ #phasers in 8 minutes 18:52
jdhore sets his phaser to Deep Fry and joins :P 18:53
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dalek rixel: 3ea4bc2 | diakopter++ | / (3 files):
[perlesque] allow the decimal exponent in the float grammar
 19:15
diakopter er, oops. :) forgot the optional hyphen :) 19:17
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dalek rixel: f028d0d | diakopter++ | / (3 files):
allow negative decimal exponents on float literals
 19:18
jdhore does dalek post commits to Parrot or Rakudo? Or does it just EXTERMINATE?
diakopter it doesn't post parrot commits here 19:19
rakudo commits, yes
Tene jdhore: Just rakudo commits here.
tadzik well, and niecza, and yapsi, and nqprx, and...
jdhore ah 19:20
masak and november, as I discovered the other day...
jnthn November. In January. :P 19:21
moritz_ it reports parrot commits to #parrot. 19:22
diakopter perlesque: say(2.2250738585072012e-308) 19:26
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«0␤»
diakopter heh 19:27
moritz_ well, pretty close :-)
diakopter perlesque: say(2.2250738585072012e-308 / 2.2250738585072012e-308)
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
diakopter hrm
jdhore ah 19:31
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diakopter both .net & mono give 0 for Double.Parse("2.2250738585072012e-308") 19:36
moritz_ better than infinite loop 19:39
colomon agreed.
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diakopter latest stable of each, anyway, who knows about prior ones 19:40
perlesque: say(Double.Parse("2.2250738585072012e-308")) 19:41
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«2.2250738585072E-308␤»
diakopter O_O
masak looks about right to me.
diakopter hrm, oh. I take back "both .net & mono ... " it was perlesque that was breaking it....
dalek rixel: 9b108d8 | diakopter++ | sprixel/src/compiler/EmitterPass.cs:
[perlesque] don't bother trying to parse to a Single
 19:44
diakopter perlesque: say(2.2250738585072012e-308 * 1.0e308) 19:45
p6eval perlesque: OUTPUT«2.2250738585072␤»
diakopter better
hm, I saw an arbitrary precision float CLR lib somewhere... 19:50
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pmichaud jnthn: do you want the new rakudo branch to be called rakudo-nom? 20:10
or, what do you want the branch to be called?
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moritz_ nom 20:10
:-)
pmichaud I'll go ahead and create it too, working on switching its build system to the new nqp
jnthn nom :) 20:12
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jnthn pmichaud: Just call it "nom" 20:13
pmichaud: Typing 3 letters when pushing is nice ;)
masak 'git push' is 7 letters... :) 20:14
moritz_ [branch "nom"]
jnthn :P
moritz_ remote = origin
merge = refs/heads/nom
PerlJam he's got an alias for "nom" to be "git push nom"
:)
jnthn ;)
tadzik git nom
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ash_ is the new nqp still in perl6/nqp-rx? 20:20
jnthn yes, nom branch
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Tene dissatisfied with IO again, ran into some issues writing a little recursive directory walker. I really need to work on that someday. 20:30
masak what issues? what did you write it in? 20:32
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Tene masak: Perl 6. 20:32
Sorry, "the IO class"
masak ok. 20:33
Tene masak: consider: dir('/tmp')>>.IO
All of those IO objects will be useless.
masak oh?
Tene The values returned from dir() are relative paths. 20:34
so you really need: dir('/tmp').map('/tmp' ~ *)>>.IO
erm
so you really need: dir('/tmp').map('/tmp/' ~ *)>>.IO
masak aye.
right, we talked about this a few weeks ago.
Tene Also, looks like IO doesn't have a .dir method to make that any easier 20:35
and the .Str of IO is unhelpful
So instead of walking over IO objects, I walk over strings, and repeatedly concatenate paths. 20:36
colomon Tene: you need to figure out what IO needs and add it... :)
Tene colomon: Yes, I do. I'm reluctant to do that, though, because it seems I have some philosophical disagreements with TimToady about this.
colomon ah 20:37
PerlJam Tene: ask forgiveness rather than permission.
Tene Seems like I could at least get a bit closer to optimal, though.
masak +1 20:42
don't let philosophical disagreements with TimToady stand in the way of a better IO class.
dalek psi: dad2ec6 | masak++ | t/ (2 files):
[t/] s/done_testing/done/
 20:45
psi: 57acb43 | masak++ | lib/Yapsi.pm:
[Yapsi] bumped SIC version

Between releases, the SIC version is always the version number of the upcoming release.
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ash_ use TeneIO; 20:49
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masak when I define an .at_pos method in a class that wraps around an array, should I delegate to the array's .[] method, or .at_pos method? 20:56
colomon .at_pos, I think... 21:00
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masak why? 21:00
colomon probably no one knows for sure but pmichaud
PerlJam The spec doesn't say which is canonical.
masak at_pos is the more fundamental one. 21:01
PerlJam So ... decide which is and document it in the spec
colomon is at_pos in the spec?
masak doubts that
PerlJam A quick ack on the spec and it doesn't even mention at_pos
masak Perl 6 is so pretty: gist.github.com/806666 21:02
I've written pre-order traversals dozens of times; never so nicely... :) 21:03
arnsholt Doesn't the initial call to helper lack an argument? 21:05
masak oh, oops.
was supposed to default to 0
arnsholt Or that =)
masak there, fixed: gist.github.com/806666 21:06
pmichaud at_pos always looks up a single element
.[] has to know how to handle slices
masak right, this is more a question about convention.
when writing my own .at_pos, what should I delegate to in the wrapped Array? 21:07
pmichaud I'd go for .at_pos
masak that's what I settled for.
pmichaud faster, plus also expects a single element. Unless you think that your argument needs to be treated like a slice somewhere
masak nope. 21:08
I'm just passing the argument along unchanged.
pmichaud definitely .at_pos I think
masak pmichaud: I must say I'm torn when it comes to at_pos. I see its usefulness, and why it was created, but...
it felt cool to define postcircumfix:<[ ]> 21:09
.at_pos feels like Ruby :(
pmichaud TimToady has already said that the operators tend to be sugar over method calls, though.
and postcircumfix:<[ ]> definitely qualifies as that
masak aye.
it does make sense.
does .{} have a similar method? 21:10
pmichaud and believe me, trying to handle slices and ranges and whatever closures in everything that wants to act like an array is not -Ofun
.at_key
masak ah.
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masak I believe you. it's a "semantics-rich" area. 21:10
moritz_ Tene: in the end, dir() should return IO::Path objects, or some such
Tene moritz_: That's my inclination too. 21:11
masak is PAST::Stmts strictly necessary? seems to me it isn't. 21:12
pmichaud at the moment, no.
Tene masak: traversal like you posted is even nicer with multiple dispatch :)
pmichaud but I could imagine ways in which PAST::Stmts could be used to denote sequence points, or to provide various introspection/code analysis 21:13
masak Tene: how so?
pmichaud so, it's a useful abstraction to say "this demarks a complete statement in the HLL source"
Tene masak: fwiw, gist.github.com/806549 was what I ended up with, on the little project that lead me to complain about IO today
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pmichaud I'm thinking it might also be useful for object code annotations and references to the original source 21:14
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masak Tene: sir, that is a pretty use of multis. 21:14
pmichaud anyway, early versions of allison++'s PAST (and I think even PIL) had a ::Stmts node, so I went ahead and kept it 21:15
Tene masak: That also indirectly answers your question.
masak which question?
Tene 14:13 < masak> Tene: how so?
masak has so many... :)
right.
I didn't need it for my method, since I'm treating all nodes the same. 21:16
if I did, I would probably have reached for multis too.
moritz_ Tene: fwiw, dir() excludes . and .. by default
arnsholt That was very nice, indeed
moritz_ rakudo: say dir.join(' ')
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Operation not permitted in safe mode␤ in 'Safe::forbidden' at line 2:/tmp/0qntvAtA37␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/0qntvAtA37␤»
masak p6eval++ 21:17
Tene moritz_: Ah, right.
moritz_ so need need for that grep(none <. ..>), pretty as it might be :-)
masak why are if statements and sub calls bunched in under PAST::Op? 21:18
seems like the thinking was "ok, PAST::Op is for when we want to do stuff..." :P
moritz_ right
masak no wonder there aren't many node types!
moritz_ there are subtypes 21:19
Tene masak: it's dispatch on the pasttype attribute
masak considers whether he wants that, too
Tene it certainly wouldn't be unreasonable for that to be broken out into classes for different pasttypes.
masak ah, what the heck.
won't ever know if I don't try :P 21:20
Tene :pasttype was just simpler, I expect.
masak looks like it's just cheating the type hierarchy on all the fun.
"who needs runtime polymorphism when there are switch statements?"
moritz_ masak: remember that PAST was written in PIR, wihch doesn't have nice, declarative syntax for classes :-) 21:21
masak sure, sure, defend the mistakes of the PAST... :P 21:22
pmichaud I did think seriously about having separate types
but the problem is that it's much harder to specify node types than attribute values in say, a grammar.
masak I see what you mean.
when does the need for that arise? 21:23
pmichaud token infix:<||> { <O( :pasttype('unless') )> }
masak hm.
pmichaud (or maybe that one is 'if')
masak I know too little about <O()>, but that's just a literal in there. 21:24
couldn't that as well have been PAST::Unless?
pmichaud right... basically the default is to create an object of type PAST::Op and pass the :pasttype along
masak ok.
I don't think I will run up against that limitation. 21:25
pmichaud PAST::Unless works *if* you have a reliable mechanism to look up class types
which Parrot often did not
masak a proliferation of PAST::Op subtypes it is!
erm, FUTURE::Op.
pmichaud I also noticed that Pugs didn't have a proliferation of subtypes
masak and look what happened to Pugs... :P 21:26
pmichaud lol
anyway, my gut tells me that the current PAST has it largely correct, but I could be completely wrong there.
masak in a Liskov sense, I'm not really changing the type of anything. 21:27
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masak I'm just pushing out an attribute as refined subtypes. 21:28
Tene subtype PAST::Unless of PAST::Op where ...
masak considers 21:29
PerlJam pmichaud: your observation of pugs may be telling since Haskell does have a good type system.
masak then I can't give the subtypes their specific attributes.
Tene: btw, it's 'subset', last I looked. 21:30
(but I tend to get it wrong, too)
Tene masak: ah, right.
pmichaud afk, errand
Tene masak: another synonym I get wrong all the time is "partition" instead of "classify"
masak that never happens to me. 21:31
then again, I never use .classify
occasionally, I get 'given' and 'gather' wrong. 21:32
Tene Fascinating. 21:33
PerlJam masak: is that an english-as-a-second-language thing? Those two words occupy completely different conceptual space to me.
Tene in both directions?
masak Tene: don't think so. doesn't happen often at all, mind. but it's probably always 'given' instead of 'gather'. 21:34
ash_ agree's with PerlJam
masak PerlJam: yes, I think so. it's not rational at all.
arnsholt Probably just "starts with a 'g'"
masak PerlJam: but they *are* both six-letter keywords start... what arnsholt said.
tylercurtis rakudo: say 'given'.chars 21:35
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«5␤»
PerlJam masak: you must have some sort of alternate spelling for the word "given" :)
masak I like to spell it the old-fashiened way.
arnsholt The very start of words is how we remember them, usually
masak 'ghiven' :P
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arnsholt Suffixes help as well, but the clue "starts with a ..." is usually very helpful =) 21:36
masak rakudo: say ? all( <given gather> ).chars == 5 | 6
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«any(Bool::False)␤»
PerlJam Like old basic interpreters, as long as the first few characters are the same, it's the same identifier (in this case only 1 char)
masak huh.
rakudo: say so all( <given gather> ).chars == 5 | 6
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
arnsholt (Yay, psycholinguistics)
masak \o/
PerlJam: yes, that's my brain. an old, crappy BASIC interpreter. 21:37
huf got more uptime than any basic interpreter i ever heard of
moritz_ PerlJam: I know that from Fortran 77, not basic :-) 21:38
PerlJam basic is more perlian than fortran ;)
V15170R i'm totally lost at this : say so all( <given gather> ).chars == 5 | 6
PerlJam V15170R: what part confuses you?
masak V15170R: sorry :/ 21:39
arnsholt Speaking of Fortran, two of the older profs in my research group were spotted the other day deciphering the punch-card decorations in our new buildings =D
V15170R the word "so" and using <given gather>
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masak V15170R: in English it asks "do all of the strings <given gather> have either 5 or 6 characters"? 21:39
tylercurtis so is a function equivalent of prefix<?>
masak V15170R: <given gather> means ["given", "gather"] 21:40
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masak er, ("given", "gather") 21:40
Tene cd ~/src/rakudo; find . -type f -exec sed -i 's/given|gather/grumble/g' {} +
huf so why did the prefix<?> return something different? rakudobug?
PerlJam Tene: heh
masak huf: no.
moritz_ huf: precedence
huf ah!
masak huf: different... what moritz_ said.
huf hufbug then
masak yeah, pls fix kthx. 21:41
V15170R rakudo: say so all ( <string1 otherstring> ).chars == 5|6
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
ash_ does anyone know if there is an equivalent of haskells . in perl6? 21:42
huf hum, how is so() mnemonic for boolean? :)
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V15170R rakudo: say so all ( <string1 otherstring> ).chars == 6|9 21:43
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
V15170R rakudo: say so all ( <string1 otherstring> ).chars == 7|9
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
V15170R rakudo: say so all ( <string1 otherstring> ).chars == 7|11
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
moritz_ rakdo: .say for <string1 otherstring>».chars 21:44
masak ash_: foo(bar())?
moritz_ rakudo: .say for <string1 otherstring>».chars
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«7␤11␤»
V15170R rakudo: say so all ( <string1 otherstring> ).chars == 7|11
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
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Util Do we have anything like File::Temp in Rakudo? 21:44
masak ash_: ==> and <== are a bit similar, too.
huf oh! so as in the opposite of not, i get it ;)
moritz_ Util: nope :( and sorely missed iin the test suite
ash_ masak: do you use haskell much?
Util Thx
masak ash_: not in a while, no. 21:45
ash_: but I know what function composition is.
PerlJam isn't . just composition in haskell?
PerlJam is slow
masak huf: took a while to reach that name, too :)
Util Haskell twisted my brain inside-out and did not even give me a lousy T-shirt.
ash_ doh 21:46
masak huf: for a long time it was 'true', which is a horrible name.
ash_ i was thinking of $
not .
huf masak: i like it now that i understand it
ash_ my bad
huf masak: yeah, so is so better
masak ash_: $ is the default for listops.
ash_: that's why we can do 'say so' above...
PerlJam Perl is getting closer to making "say it isn't so" into runnable code without much help 21:47
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colomon any quick tips how to run niezca under windows? 21:48
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moritz_ just need to define the subroutines it() and isn't() 21:48
tylercurtis rakudo: use Test; say $_ isn't so;
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say $_ isn"␤»
arnsholt And make so work with no arguments (maybe?)
tylercurtis rakudo: use Test; say $_ isnt so;
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say $_ isn"␤»
allbery_b PerlJam: back tot he future?
tylercurtis rakudo: use Test; say $_, isn't, so;
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say $_, is"␤»
colomon To answer my own question: Niecza\run\Niecza.exe and then patience. 21:49
pmichaud I always confuse given/when and gather/take 21:50
I'll type one when I mean the other
ash_ masak: well, what if you wanted to do: sub foo($, $) { ... }; sub bar(@) { ... }; bar foo 2, 3, 4, 6; I am more refereeing to a of saying this is the end of foo's args, the rest are bar's args
pmichaud bar (foo 2, 3), 4, 6 21:51
masak ash_: and you don't want to use parentheses...? :)
pmichaud or bar foo(2,3), 4, 6
anything else gets weird as soon as foo() becomes multi :-)
jnthn And I hpoe bar's signature is *@ :)
masak boggles
tylercurtis Just like in Haskell, except with commas. 21:52
pmichaud multi foo($,$,$) { ... }; multi foo($,$) { ... }; sub bar(*@) { ... }; bar foo 2, 3, 4, 6; # uh oh!
I think some very early versions of pugs played with trying to make this work, which is how we ended up with what we have now :) 21:53
PerlJam maybe someone could steal the colon for haskell's equivalent to $. It's kind-of like the cut operator if you're crazy like me :)
ash_ multi foo($,$,$) { ... }; multi foo($,$) { ... }; sub bar(*@) { ... }; bar foo 2, 3 $ 4, 6; # in haskell terms would call foo($,$)
PerlJam er, perl's equivalent to haskell's $
bar foo 2, 3 :: 4, 6 # or something 21:54
tylercurtis ash_: in Haskell, "bar foo 2 3 $ 4 6" is "(bar foo 2 3) 4 6" 21:55
masak rakudo: sub bar {}; sub foo {}; bar foo 2, 3 :: 4, 6
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "bar foo 2,"␤»
PerlJam ponders how to define a juxtaposition operator in Perl 6 21:58
I guess it would be a context sensitive application of whitespace.
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masak hey guys and gals, you know what would be really nice? imagine if, when a multi dispatch fails to bind, you get not only the possible signatures, but also the capture that failed to bind? :) 22:41
it's just a crazy idea...
but would make things easier to debug.
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ash_ improving debuggability is always a plus 22:43
masak I've decided to postpone the Yapsi release a day or two. the reason for this is that I'm making good progress with the FUTURE refactor. 22:48
Tene masak: FUTURE refactor?
masak the punnability potential of this has not escaped me.
Tene masak: Is this related to TARDIS?
masak Tene: not really, actually.
Tene: so, I'm making a variant of PAST for Yapsi. 22:49
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masak Tene: FUTURE is like PAST, only it was made later. 22:49
:)
the way things are poiting now, I'll end up with fewer lines but a slower compiler. 22:50
the runtime will be unaffected, but it's already slow enough.
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Tene :) 23:02
masak rakudo: class A { method fleh { $*l++ }; method foo { my $*l = 0; self.fleh; say $*l; sub bar { self.fleh }; bar; say $*l } }; A.new.foo
p6eval rakudo d3e9a3: OUTPUT«1␤2␤»
masak sometimes I'm impressed that stuff I throw at Rakudo just comes back, working :) 23:03
(in this case, dynamical-in-method-in-sub-in-method)
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colomon I somehow read that as method-in-law.... 23:07
masak :P 23:08
there totally should be such a concept in computer science.
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coldhead isn't that just design by contract? 23:10
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masak "Program to an interface, not to your method-in-law?" :) 23:12
sjohnson sometimes, re-inventing the wheel needs to be done for some things 23:14
masak sjohnson: were you thinking of any wheels in particular?
sjohnson yeah
a javascript tabber i found on the internet, as well as a vim script for commenting 23:15
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sjohnson after trying to get the tabber thing to do what i wanted for 6 hours, i decided to write my own and had it done from scratch doing everything i needed in 8 hours :3 23:15
masak kudos.
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sjohnson i only said that cause of the quote you said reminded me of it 23:16
masak really? I don't see the connection. 23:17
sjohnson: I associate the quote with the Dependency Inversion Principle. 23:18
sjohnson i get reminded of things very tangent-ly :) 23:20
masak I think that goes for many of us in here :)
sjohnson it was really the "program to an interface" thing, then i thoguht "rewrite your own interface [sometimes]" 23:21
masak aha. 23:22
sjohnson: in Java, there's List, which is an interface. and then there's ArrayList, LinkedList, and a bunch of other concrete classes that implement the List interface. the quote basically urges the programmer to write just "List" whenever possible. 23:23
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masak I've got the refactored code running -e 'say 42' now :) 23:27
'night, #perl6
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coldhead Dependency Inversion Principle would be a good name for a band 23:39
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