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Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
patrickas TimToady: should fail('something'); show something or just fail silently in the absence of "use fatal;" ? 00:03
rakudo:sub f {fail 'HARD'}; f();say 'OK'; 00:06
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«OK␤»
TimToady it should throw the exception when the return value of f() hits a sink context 00:10
(probably)
sorear good * #perl6 00:27
sjohnson hello
sorear phenny: tell pmurias AFAICT GSoC doesn't like 'exploratory programming' much. We don't know if the CL-backend will still have decent performance after you make 1 + "2" work 00:29
phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when pmurias is around.
sorear phenny: tell masak You need to go back in time to the 80s and check out X11's color parser, or at least /usr/share/X11/rgb.txt 00:39
phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
sorear Tene! 00:40
Tene sorear!
sorear Tene: I don't understand fail() very well. Can you help?
Tene sorear: I can certainly try. 00:41
fail ~~ currently-fatal ?? die Failure.new(...) !! return Failure.new(...); 00:42
There's also some stuff about storing failures in $!
Do you have specific questions, or should I explain those in more-detail?
sorear Tene: the nature of exception objects, to a large extent 00:47
Tene TimToady: I'm pretty sure that fatal can't just be lexically scoped, unless I misunderstand the spec. "The fail function responds to the caller's use fatal state." -- does this refer to the caller of fail, or the caller of the caller of fail? 00:49
sorear: Failure objects are fairly simple. They have a 'handled' attribute, and if that's false, any use of the Failure as data (.Str, .Int, any other method calls afaict) should cause it to be thrown. 00:53
oops, train, brb
will continue from train in a sec
sorear I think fatal should maybe do something like 00:57
use fatal -> constant $?FATAL = True
no fatal -> constant $?FATAL = False
sorear be_fatal() -> loop (my $fr = caller; $fr; $fr .= caller) { return $_ if .defined given $fr.hints('$?FATAL') } 00:59
sorear I can't remember if .hints is a Niecza extension though 00:59
TimToady Tene: the viewpoint of the description of fail is already from the first caller's perspective 01:07
TimToady so it means the caller's caller 01:07
or the caller of the code that called fail, more like 01:08
Tene TimToady: It's not clear to me what should happen when a scope with no fatal calls a sub in a scope that is fatal, which in turn calls a sub in a scope that is not fatal, which calls fail.
I guess the fatal quality of the last sub is not relevant. 01:09
is it just thrown? only thrown up to the first non-fatal sub?
TimToady fail only cares about the lexical scope of the immediate caller 01:10
Tene sorear: .hints is a niecza extension, but yes, that looks very good.
TimToady if you explicitly return an exception into a 'use fatal' lexical scope, it would throw immediately though 01:11
Tene TimToady: so the ability to deal with "soft failures" is only possible as long as all of the code I call does not use fatal?
Tene So if I use fatal in my code, it makes my code more difficult to use for anyone who wants to use unthrown exceptions? 01:12
TimToady yes, but then I'm a bit prejudiced against 'use fatal' to start with 01:13
ajs and libraries probably never have an excuse to do so 01:14
TimToady I don't think eager exceptions will work well in a parallel programming language
Tene sorear: anyway, resuming, fail() will also push the returned failure onto the caller's $! 01:15
sorear: at scope exit, all handled exceptions in $! are discarded, and any unhandled exceptions are thrown. 01:16
TimToady we may yet turn $! into @!
Tene Ah, no, if there any unhandled exceptions in $!, they're all bundled into a single new exception, which is thrown, according to S04 01:17
TimToady yes, that's what S04 says, but I can change it :)
Tene So can I. 01:18
sorear out
TimToady anyway, if we did that, CATCH would basically turn into a for @! {} rather than a given $! {}
Tene 'use fatal' vaguely feels like an exception handler that uses a third exit path (locally return) 01:20
ajs Too bad !! is taken... it would be a fun "re-bundle and throw" ala "CATCH { !! "Why?" }
Tene "no fatal" => FAIL { magic-local-return $! }
ajs: die() defaults to $!
implemented as an EH for every nonfatal scope would be horrible, though 01:21
ajs Yes, but die doesn't re-throw
or bundle I mean
So die $! just re-raises and die "Why?" raises a new exception. 01:22
anyway, it was just a cute idea... I'm sure there will be an easy way to aggregate $! and a new exception 01:24
ncow perl6: printf "$]"; 02:14
p6eval niecza v4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Any()Non-variable $ must be backslashed at /tmp/PvuZTtD0_j line 1:␤------> printf "⏏$]";␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-variable $ must be backslashed at line 22, near "$]\";"␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«$]»
ncow what the...
what none-variable?
perl6: printf "$[";
Eevee what the heck, why is there an eject symbol in v4's output
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<[ ]>, couldn't find final ']' at line 22␤»
..niecza v4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Any()Non-variable $ must be backslashed at /tmp/jrlAr2JIMq line 1:␤------> printf "⏏$[";␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«$[»
ncow perl6: print "$[";
p6eval niecza v4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Any()Non-variable $ must be backslashed at /tmp/bZX5yGyd09 line 1:␤------> print "⏏$[";␤␤Parse failed␤␤» 02:15
..rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<[ ]>, couldn't find final ']' at line 22␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«$[»
ncow no it's $], the first one 02:15
perl6: print "$]"; 02:16
p6eval niecza v4: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Any()Non-variable $ must be backslashed at /tmp/TD2aqP0tM3 line 1:␤------> print "⏏$]";␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-variable $ must be backslashed at line 22, near "$]\";"␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«$]»
TimToady std: $]
p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $] variable; in Perl 6 please use $*PERL_VERSION at /tmp/FQ4eXJiHrq line 1:␤------> $]⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 118m␤»
TimToady std: "$]"
p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-variable $ must be backslashed at /tmp/N03DATmzZc line 1:␤------> "$⏏]"␤ expecting twigil␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
TimToady hmm
std: "$|"
p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-variable $ must be backslashed at /tmp/SahEVRo4NQ line 1:␤------> "$⏏|"␤ expecting twigil␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
TimToady I guess the interpolator doesn't believe in obsolete special vars 02:17
ncow I thought Perl6 was still very much, well, Perl? Yet it can't even do a simple print statement? 02:18
perl6: print "";
p6eval pugs, rakudo 4bf132, niecza v4: ( no output )
ncow perl6: print "123";
p6eval pugs, rakudo 4bf132, niecza v4: OUTPUT«123»
TimToady that's fine, but most punctuational variables have gone away
most of them were "bad" globals 02:19
the STD parser will tell you the new usages, but apparently not if interpolated
std: $[
p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $[ variable; in Perl 6 please use user-defined array indices at /tmp/ntH6MpFnfF line 1:␤------> $[⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 118m␤»
TimToady std: $| 02:20
p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $| variable; in Perl 6 please use :autoflush on open at /tmp/p_31XQgo9C line 1:␤------> $|⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 118m␤»
TimToady the definition of "Perl" isn't a surface syntax, it's a way of thinking about computer languages
tylercurtis jnthn: I've noticed that one of the ideas on the Perl Foundation's GSoC ideas page is optimizing multiple dispatch for Rakudo. 02:43
jnthn: Do you know if anyone is planning to apply for that?
ncow lol 02:44
TimToady: sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by your last statement. Perl (Perl5) /is/ a language, not just a way of thinking, but as well defined syntax, et al 02:45
maybe I'm not understanding your meaning 02:46
PerlJam ncow: Perl5 is Perl, Perl6 is Perl. Perl is philosophy more than syntax. 02:48
tylercurtis ncow: I think that, as far as this case specifically, he's saying that Perl 6's use of less opaque variable names for certain things doesn't make it less Perlish. 02:50
PerlJam Steal good ideas where you can. TMTOWTDI (including ways that aren't perl). Huffman. Waterbed theory of complexity. Easy things easy, hard things possible. Be nice. Hugs. Camels. Butterflies. It's all "Perl" :-) 02:51
aesop but perl isn't perl without the arcane globals! 02:52
TimToady that's a fable 02:53
PerlJam aesop: That's about as true as "perl isn't perl without using -> for method calls"
aesop i will miss the -> 02:54
PerlJam aesop: or look at it this way ... we've given up arcane globals and gotten twigils instead ;)
aesop ha
TimToady and you lose -> as method call but get it back as a "lambda" 02:55
rakudo: for %*ENV.kv -> $key, $value { say "$key='$value'" } 02:56
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Method 'key' not found for invocant of class 'String'␤ in <anon> at line 5228:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
aesop was the `=>' retained 02:57
TimToady yes, but it really makes a Pair object now
TimToady wonders why that didn't work... 02:58
PerlJam poor %*ENV implementations?
er, s/s//
TimToady rakudo: say ~%*ENV.kv
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Method 'key' not found for invocant of class 'String'␤ in <anon> at line 5228:CORE.setting␤ in 'Any::join' at line 1␤ in 'List::Str' at line 2815:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 7538:CORE.setting␤»
TimToady looks like
anyway, thought I could demo both a twigil and the new ->
tylercurtis rakudo: say {}.kv 02:59
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«␤»
TimToady pugs: for %*ENV.kv -> $key, $value { say "$key='$value'" }
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Can't modify constant item: VUndef␤ at /tmp/VaOTJhNphS line 1, column 5-14␤ /tmp/VaOTJhNphS line 1, column 5-14␤»
TimToady niecza: for %*ENV.kv -> $key, $value { say "$key='$value'" }
p6eval niecza v4: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method kv in class Any␤ at /tmp/0ORFmdnnSP line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1)␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1264 (CORE C525_ANON @ 2)␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1265 (CORE module-CORE @ 39)␤ at
../home/p6eval/niecz…
TimToady strikes out
alpha: for %*ENV.kv -> $key, $value { say "$key='$value'" } 03:00
p6eval alpha : OUTPUT«PWD='/home/p6eval/rakudo-alpha'␤PATH='/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/games:/usr/games'␤LS_COLORS='rs=0:di=01;34:ln=01;36:mh=00:pi=40;33:so=01;35:do=01;35:bd=40;33;01:cd=40;33;01:or=40;31;01:su=37;41:sg=30;43:ca=30;41:tw=30;42:ow=34;42:st=37;44:ex=01;32:*.tar=01;31:*.tgz=01…
TimToady hah!
takadonet night all 03:03
woldrich alpha: $0
p6eval alpha : ( no output )
aesop i still am learning new things about perl5 every day 03:08
$a = $b or $c;# bug: this is wrong
($a = $b) or $c; # really means this
this caught me today
TimToady general rule, use && when you want to do logic inside an assignment 03:09
this is still true in p6
aesop i see 03:10
PerlJam aesop: one of the neat things about Perl is that there's always something new to learn :)
aesop i love the `english word' operators
you can write statements that read like complete sentences
TimToady even more true in Perl 6 :)
rakudo: say so so not True 03:13
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
PerlJam I can't believe p5p is *just now* getting rid of the /o modifier and study and for all I know reset is still around too.
I haven't used reset since *perl4* was the latest and greatest 03:15
TimToady rakudo: all for one; and one for all 03:16
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &and␤ in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/C91VsS8U_s␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
TimToady rakudo: all for one and one for all # won't work, alas 03:17
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing block at line 22, near ""␤»
sorear is back
TimToady: I hope fail can be made to work in a way that doesn't erase all the potential wins from parallelism... 03:18
TimToady std: lol eager cat but not one caller 03:19
p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'but' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
TimToady hmm
sorear TimToady: so the contents of a CATCH block might be executed multiple times? 03:21
sorear TimToady: what would my $err = try { }; do? Would try { } fill @! with 'handled' exceptions? 03:21
TimToady if it's really a loop, yeah; but you could short circuit by eating up @! 03:22
I think @! probably would only keep unhandled exceptions
TimToady waves hands in the usual way
sorear ncow: The eject symbol marks the exact location of the error. 03:23
TimToady std: splice one flat cat and make hash 03:24
p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'and' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
sorear TimToady: currently you can say "try {}" and then use $!. If $! becomes @! and @! only keeps unhandled exceptions, how will this work? 03:25
PerlJam sorear: TimToady waves his hands, there's a little puff of smoke and it just works. ;) 03:26
TimToady $! might be the most recent unhandled exception 03:27
tylercurtis PerlJam: I am opposed to language constructs in Perl 6 requiring TimToady's hand-waving. Imagine if someone tried to do "for 1..10000 { try { something; } }". 03:29
TimToady's arms would be ruined.
TimToady std: splice one hyper cat for now and chomp new hash 03:31
p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of C++ constructor syntax; in Perl 6 please use method call syntax at /tmp/oswS_XeDAr line 1:␤------> one hyper cat for now and chomp new hash⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
TimToady std: splice one hyper cat for now and chomp all hash lol 03:33
p6eval std 4608239: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
TimToady rakudo: say now 03:34
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Instant:2011-04-01T03:34:59.210172Z␤» 03:35
sorear PerlJam: I don't currently have a way to programmatically wave TimToady's hands 03:42
mberends sorear: I have a very useful summer goal for you: get Niecza to support at least one GUI on Linux and then Windows 04:31
sorear mberends: cool 04:35
mberends callbacks are a big problem to solve, and probably handling native structures is too. 04:36
sorear callbacks? te he he he 04:44
take a look at SortHelper in Kernel.cs :> 04:45
mberends cb.Invoke(...) yeah 04:48
anyhow I predict that if Perl 6 early adopters could write GUI apps using Niecza, they would do so in large numbers. 04:52
sorear straw poll: what GUI(s) should Niecza support? 04:53
mberends tip: ignore technical cuteness, go for the lowest common denominator 04:54
sorear likes :from<C#>, but there are a LOT of dark corners to make that work
mberends heh
mberends likes :from<C>
sorear C# and P6 both depend heavily on multiple dispatch, but have not quite the same type system
I don't think there are any good C GUI libraries 04:55
mberends I said ignore that
mberends go for largest potential user base 04:55
we need to increase the bus number as top priority 04:56
sorear I thought by "technical cuteness" you meant stuff like yampa 04:57
mberends so the poll question should be (imho): which GUI has the lowest barrier for new users.
sorear so what do you want me to ignore? good, or C?
mberends ignore C, that was a subjective joke 04:58
sorear so we've got stuff like GTK, wx, and QT as the serious contenders in unix-land 04:59
(my last Mac and Windows programing experience was in 7.6.0 and 98, respectively; I doubt either is still using the same GUIs)
mberends eliminate those that require additional installation steps. Out-the-box will win far more users.
sorear ok. 05:00
mberends Tene++ did a bit with E17 but almost nobody got it to run.
the ideal first target platform (imo) is the Debian 6.0 Live CD. 05:02
sorear diabian is at 6 now? 05:06
mberends yes, after a long long wait, 6.0 was officially released in February. It was like Christmas! 05:11
sorear mberends: I'm of two minds about the value of :from<C#>
on the one hand, GUIs (several!), web servers, compression and encryption, networking, and much more for the price of a single summer's work 05:13
on the other hand ... lockin
mberends understandably. It is probably very tempting, and scary.
sorear does not like the idea of encouraging unportable Perl 6 much 05:14
sorear out 05:15
mberends too 05:16
moritz_ good morning 05:49
Tene mberends: I wasn't aware that anyone else even tried to get my e17 stuff to run 05:54
Tene sorear: I'm pretty pleased with EFL as a C GUI library, but I've never done anything very big with any GUI library, so I'm probably underqualified to comment. I'm curious if you have more-detailed opinions. 05:56
Su-Shee hi everyone. 08:15
moritz_ good morning Su-Shee 08:16
Su-Shee what? GUI? Gtk3with GIR of course!
moritz_ your patches are very welcome :-) 08:17
Su-Shee personally, I don't think desktop GUI support is very important as this is something slowly vanishing into the background anyways. also, if you're in your right mind, you go for seed anyways these days. so level of importance: low. (besides gathering experience and knowledge and show that it can be done etc.) 08:19
Tene: I did run your GUI stuff as well. ;) 08:20
moritz_ thinks that GUI application designers could learn a lot from web apps 08:22
for example: make all text copy&pastable
don't use modal dialogs 08:23
don't ask if I'm sure. JDFI, and maybe make my change reversible
Su-Shee moritz_: I don't know what gui you are using - but use another one :) 08:24
moritz_ make different views or functionality easily available with URIs
Su-Shee: for example I'm using thunderbird/icedove. It gives me a modal dialog whenever it loses connection to a server
when the internetz disconnected for a while, I have to click away a few such dialogs for each server I configured 08:25
Su-Shee moritz_: "baeh."
Su-Shee moritz_: though that's because everything mozilla is highly optimized for windows gui and windows actually has the notion of modal dialogs. 08:26
moritz_ Su-Shee: and from my experience that's the norm rather than exception
Su-Shee: even on windows I don't want modal dialogs
Su-Shee moritz_: haven't tried gnome 3 yet.
moritz_ what do I gain from not being able to use my program while that error message is displayed?
Su-Shee you're really barking up the wrong tree :) I don't even use desktop gui anymore besides maybe 5 applications and a very reduced window manager. everything else plays in web for me. 08:28
anyways. I'd look into how seed works if I'd had to make perl 6 bindings to gtk3. 08:30
Su-Shee *hihi* #perl topic for today: "...| perl is currently being rewritten in Java for better portability and OO support 08:52
mberends mypaint is awesome! hwo sad for us that it is written in Python 2.6, and that we cannot write awesome software like that in Perl 6. mypaint.intilinux.com/
*how
Su-Shee it probably can't be rewritten in python 3 too ;) 08:53
moritz_ mberends: I'm currently writing a project of mine in perl 5, because p6 just misses modules, and isn't fast enough. But man how I miss some of the syntactic goodies 08:54
I keep writing $obj->update({title => $title}), and can't help thinking that it would just be :$title in p6, for example 08:55
mberends watching mypaint install and run is what prompted my GUI suggestion for Niecza
moritz_ or post '/edit' => sub { ... }\n
Su-Shee mberends: hm, there's a couple of c and c++ libs involved, and cairo as well.
moritz_ p5 needs a newline after the }
which I *always* forget 08:56
mberends considers changing nick to mberends_ to preserve parity 09:00
moritz I'll try to get the freenode staff to drop the old registration for 'moritz' 09:02
if that fails, I'll take up the underscore again 09:03
moritz \o/ my Hague grant has been accepted 09:19
[Coke]: do you want to be my grant manager?
bbkr_ rakudo: NaN.WHAT.say # oh irony :) 09:28
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
patrickas RT#87420 / RT#87440 are too narrow in scope is there a way to change the description? ot should it be closed and a new bug reopened? or should I just add a message leaving title and everything else as is? 09:48
patrickas apparently I was having a communication fail about the failure of fail yesterday :-) 09:49
moritz patrickas: if you have write access to the perl6 queue on rt, you can change the title on the 'basics' link 09:50
and merge them when you click on 'links' 09:51
patrickas oh cool! seems I do ... let me try
mberends moritz: congratulations on your grant!
patrickas Actually maybe just discuss it here first
moritz mberends: thanks 09:52
patrickas the real issue is that "fail" does not produce any visible errors in the abscence of 'use strict'
moritz s/strict/fatal/
patrickas right
the weird behavior of seq op is just one of tons of other examples 09:53
moritz yes, calling methods on Failure should result either in another Failure(), or in the original exception being thrown
patrickas rakudo: say (3+4i).Real;say ()[-3];say [*..*];
moritz agreed
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: ( no output )
patrickas all thos fail with error messages in the same way ... so I will try to make the report about that :-)
permission denied on the RT :-( apparently I have enough privs to edit the message but not enough to save it! 09:56
moritz I've changed the title now 09:58
patrickas: maybe write a reply explaining the deeper underlying problem?
patrickas ok i will add a message explaining the issue
moritz replies don't need special permissions
patrickas sure, already half way through it
patrickas moritz ... I just realized maybe the issue of say (3+4i).Real;say ()[-3];say [*..*]; 10:07
patrickas should be in two separate bugs ? 10:08
moritz why? 10:08
patrickas s/two/a/
moritz rakudo: say (3+4i).Real.WHAT 10:09
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
moritz rakudo: say ()[-3].Real.WHAT
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Method 'Real' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/YaECJqCXln␤»
moritz rakudo: say ()[-3].WHAT
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
patrickas sorry I mean in a separate bug than the sequence one 10:09
moritz why?
ok, we have two bugs
patrickas the seq is about new Failures not preserving old ones
moritz one is that say() silently fails
patrickas where as these are about Failure not showing up at all 10:10
moritz the other is that Failure.somemethod doesn't do what it should
they look related to me, though maybe not identical
patrickas yes exactly .. I thought they were the same thing then when writing the reply I realized they might just be different
say ~()[-3]; 10:11
rakudo: say ~()[-3];
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Cannot use negative index -3 on Parcel␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
patrickas rakudo: say ~(1, 3, 4, 7 ... 20);
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Method 'count' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤ in <anon> at line 861:CORE.setting␤ in 'List::Bool' at line 1␤ in <anon> at line 881:CORE.setting␤ in 'Any::join' at line 1␤ in 'List::Str' at line 2815:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line
..7538:CORE.setting␤»
moritz rakudo: say ~(1, 3, 4, 7 ... 20).perl; 10:12
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Method 'count' not found for invocant of class 'Failure'␤ in <anon> at line 861:CORE.setting␤ in 'List::Bool' at line 1␤ in <anon> at line 881:CORE.setting␤ in 'Any::join' at line 1␤ in 'List::perl' at line 2845:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line
..22:/tmp/ZutBAtcthG␤»
moritz rakudo: say ~(1, 3, 4, 7 ... 20)[0] 10:12
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz it's a list of an element and a failure
patrickas it is lazy ... so at this point it still doesn't know
moritz but that's still an instance of "calling a method on a Failure doesn't do what it should" 10:13
even if the method is called from within the iterator
patrickas I guess you are probably right... 10:14
so I will add those example to the bug after all
moritz I kinda think we should avoid fail() in the rakudo code base until this is figured out somehow 10:14
patrickas any better suggestions ? 10:15
moritz fix Failure() :-)
patrickas oh sure I mean whad do we use until we fix failure ? 10:16
rakudo: say ('a'=>'b').Num
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Don't know how to numify a Pair␤ in 'Cool::Num' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/g0wtFXekTY␤»
moritz die()
patrickas strage I though that failed in the same way
moritz jnthn: is there some (maybe hacky) way to install a fallback method to a PIR class? (ie one that's called if another method can't be found) 10:17
patrickas rakudo: say ('a'=>'b').Numeric; #my bad ... that one does 10:18
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: ( no output )
moritz the difference is probably that .Num goes through a vtable 10:18
same for prefix:<~>
whereas say uses .Str, or something 10:19
patrickas yap
moritz this whole vtable business is a huge mess 10:20
we should avoid them for any Perl 6 objects
and only use them for foreign objects
but I think some very basic things like 'if' go through vtables 10:21
if $x should really desugar to if True === $x.Bool where === is a low level primitive 10:22
moritz -> lunch 10:23
patrickas too 10:24
moritz unlunch... the usual peers aren't around right now :-)
patrickas goes through with the plans ... usual peers have been notified and are on stand by :-) 10:25
[Coke] moritz: I would not mind being your grant manager, but apparently I am a terrible hague grant manager. 12:32
moritz [Coke]: what makes you think so? pmichaud's not-yet-started doc grant? 12:33
[Coke] ah, see, you should be his grant manager, as you are more on top of it than I am. 12:34
moritz :-) 12:37
[Coke]: I think that no grant manager could have changed pmichaud's unfortunate real life circumstances 12:38
[Coke] moritz: so, anyway, yes, feel free to suggest me as a GM. 12:46
moritz [Coke]: thanks, will tell Karen 12:47
bbkr_ rakudo.org is down, "HTTP request sent, awaiting response... No data received." 12:50
moritz not again.
[Coke] I just pinged Andy. 13:11
sorear good * #perl6 13:25
Tene: I've never used EFL 13:26
sorear Su-Shee: What is "seed"? 13:28
Su-Shee sorear: Gtk3 exposes via GIR which is bound into Javascript which is called "seed". It's basically the entire Gnome environment fromGtk widgets down to the network stack 13:29
sorear: amazing API, they also managed the binding really fast, I think around 1.5 years for the whole thing. 13:30
sorear Su-Shee: are you telling me gtk3's official language is javascript? is this a joke? 13:31
mberends commute &
PerlJam sorear: doesn't sound very jokey even though this is AFD 13:32
Su-Shee sorear: no, why would it? (it's C of course, JS is just the bindings.)
sorear: this discussion is really old and they chose javascript because it's a common language for people who even consider doing GUI stuff. Excellent choice. also, there's a couple of javascript standalones to choose from and they're blazing fast. 13:33
sorear Su-Shee: ah... I thought you were saying that niecza would need to embed a javascript interpreter to use gtk3 13:47
Su-Shee no :) 14:03
the key is GIR.
PerlJam Victory! Victory for Zim! 14:05
takadonet ? 14:09
sorear PerlJam: that's my association too. 14:22
sorear TimToady: ping 15:10
TimToady: how do 'dispatch' subs interact with 'lastcall; nextsame' ?
sorear class A { method x() { say 0 } }; class B is A { proto method x() {*}; multi method x() { say 1; lastcall; nextsame } }; class C is B { multi method x() { say 2 } }; C.x() 15:12
erm
class A { method x() { say 0 } }; class B is A { proto method x() {*}; multi method x() { say 1; lastcall; nextsame } }; class C is B { multi method x() { say 2; nextsame } }; C.x()
I am thinking this prints 2 1 1 0 15:13
sorear C.x (dispatcher) calls C.x:() and then B.x:(), which transfers control to the next non-multi method, which is B.x (dispatcher), which calls B.x:() again 15:14
sorear punts on implementing the correct interaction between MMD and MI 15:23
sirrobert clear 15:35
[Coke] rakudo.org back, btw. 15:37
takadonet good
TimToady sorear: I think we should arrange things so it only prints 2 1 0; all the dispatchers for a proto have to cooperate somehow to know that their proto has already been handled, or lastcall should somehow disqualify anything under the proto 15:48
but it's an interesting problem
bbkr_ moritz ++ # rewriting IO::Socket::INET in rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=83866 works now 15:49
TimToady same with MI, a lastcall invalidates the set of methods governed by the proto regardless of where the current dispatcher lives 15:51
if we can't make this work out nicely with set theory, we're probably going to do it wrong... 15:52
TimToady and I suspect that lastcall invalidates all the methods visible downward, not just the subset of that visible upward from the point of call 15:54
it's more like we really called the proto, and it delegates to the dispatchers, but it's the proto that is abandoned with lastcall. 15:55
dispatchers are perhaps not real, but a convenient fiction to describe the cloning of the candidate list slot into different caller scopes, but the actual dispatcher code might just be in the proto 15:58
PerlJam TimToady: does each proto then imply another dispatcher? Or only if there's custom logic in the proot? 16:09
er, proto
TimToady {*} implies a dispatcher, which might or might not be in-lined 16:10
PerlJam ok
TimToady if we have real dispatchers, they have to know which proto they belong to, so we don't get dup calls like the above example 16:11
bbkr_ tadzik: I've read your module management post and "panda" is in fact very cool name for this. reminds me of "pan-da 3" on university (polish game of words) :D 16:13
sorear I think the proto model is closer to what niecza needs 16:16
TimToady you mean the model in which dispatchers aren't really there? 16:19
in which case you need some other means of managing candidate sets per caller scope...
sorear what's a caller scope? 16:20
I'm implementing multi *methods* now.
TimToady S12:1044 16:21
in the case of multi methods, it's the actual class of the object 16:22
in the case of multi subs, it's the lexical scope of the call
TimToady (the "inheritance" of lexical scopes is SI, as it were) 16:24
since you can't have two disjoint outer lexical scopes
sorear there will be dispatchers but they won't participate in the normal MRO system
they will replace the corresponding proto in the per-class MRO tables
sorear reads up on GTK3 16:25
moritz bbkr_: TiMBuS++ deserves the credit, he did nearly all of the work 16:25
sorear huh, it looks like gtk assumes C calling convention rules [ int(*)() can be cast to int(*)(int) and the argument will be ignored, etc ] 16:55
masak oh hai zebras 17:30
phenny masak: 00:39Z <sorear> tell masak You need to go back in time to the 80s and check out X11's color parser, or at least /usr/share/X11/rgb.txt
masak there's a unicorn in my freenode :)
sorear: the 80s were so much better in every way. 17:31
Su-Shee masak: aren't you like in your end 20ies? ;) 17:48
masak aye 17:50
Su-Shee masak: the 90ies were better. ;) 17:52
PerlJam The 70s were so much better ... ;)
frettled Neither had Perl 6, so you're all wrong, the 10s are best. :D 17:53
masak frettled++ # wins ;) 17:56
the 20s are gonna be awesome...
Su-Shee the 20ies already were awesome ;) famously so. :)
frettled Repeat performance! 17:57
flussence_ (but at the same time, you could say that it wasn't that bad since people still had Lisp Machines back then...)
frettled at La Cage aux Folles!
PerlJam Things were *so* much better before there was digital technology :)
frettled PerlJam: you mean before people learned to count using their digits? :D 17:58
PerlJam what digits? we have octets. :)
Su-Shee we europeans still have 10 toes and fingers ;) 18:00
frettled I thought we had 20? 18:01
PerlJam It's not the fingers or toes, but the space between them that's important
masak PerlJam: I think you and Lao Zi would make excellent drinking buddies.
Su-Shee masak: if PerlJam makes it to china with 8 toes ;) 18:02
masak rakudo: sub frod(:$with($channel)) { say "OH HAI, $channel!" }; frod :with<#perl6>
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 1 in sub-signature of parameter $with␤ in 'frod' at line 1:/tmp/KgR4rimIE2␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/KgR4rimIE2␤»
masak rakudo: sub frod(:with($channel)) { say "OH HAI, $channel!" }; frod :with<#perl6>
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«OH HAI, #perl6!␤» 18:03
masak Su-Shee: making it to China with any number of toes sounds like a very difficult way to travel.
I'd rather use fast-moving transport of some kind...
Su-Shee masak: a former room mate of mine went with the transsiberian train to china :) 18:04
masak some detour. 18:06
Su-Shee ah you just get in in berlin and change trains in moscow and that's about it for like 2 weeks or so. ;) 18:06
masak rakudo: say "siberia".trans(["s", "beri"] => ["ch", "n"]) 18:07
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«china␤»
masak \o/
TimToady wonders if jnthn++ is taking the trans-siberian train back from Taiwan...
masak not that I know.
takadonet wonder when jnth branch lands.... 18:08
could really use it right now in bioperl6 18:09
tadzik bbkr_: ;) 18:10
Tene takadonet: patches accepted ;) 18:11
takadonet Tene: I know :) Just enjoy coding in my little world : github.com/cjfields/bioperl6/commits/master 18:12
tadzik bbkr_: I know this game of words far more than I should :) 18:26
prammer is there a p6 equivalent to a restricted hash, ala the p5 Hash::Util? 19:09
masak prammer: no, but (ideally) you can provide your own class instead of a hash in Perl 6. 19:31
prammer: something like 'my %restricted is RestrictedHash;'
or (I guess), you could do the same with a mixin role. 'role Restricted { #`[method declarations here] }; my %hash; %hash does Restricted;' 19:32
prammer masak: thanks. I guess that seems about right. 19:40
I'm wondering if a Hash-like thing that dies if you ask for a value for a key that doesn't exist would be useful 19:41
prammer rakudo: my %h; say %h<x> ?? 'true' !! 'false'; say (%h<x> eq 'Any()') ?? 'true' !! 'false'; # value is false but somehow is eq to something? 19:42
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«false␤true␤» 19:43
prammer wonders if that will bite someone
masak prammer: ISTR S09 lets you restrict the domain of keys a hash can have. 19:43
hold on, let me check. 19:44
prammer masak: that's a bit different
but useful in different ways 19:45
masak oh, ok. 19:46
prammer I'm thinking of trying to catch typos in the key
masak it's at S09:1155, fwiw.
prammer kinda how the type system can potentially catch typos in method names
masak prammer: I thought that was what I was saying too.
if you restrict the keys you can have, you'll get an error when you typo outside of that. 19:47
not sure you can do more than that :)
prammer masak: ah, yes. That's how the p5 restricted hash seems to work
masak one of the examples given in S09 is 'my num %hash{'a'..'f'};'
means you can only have nums as values and only 'a'..'f' as keys. 19:48
prammer reads
masak S09 is definitely my favourite largely unimplemented S. 19:54
so many goodies in there. :)
prammer I don't think I've read it yes. I spend too much time in S02
s/yes/yet/
masak S02 is large and ambitious. it's become bloated over the years because it introduces all the "bits and pieces", and Perl 6 has accrued quite a few bits and lots of pieces. :) 19:58
in fact, we should probably rename it Perl 26. 19:59
prammer: the more I think about your code with %<x> above, the less of a problem it seems in practice. 20:00
given how you can do this...
masak rakudo: my $foo = "OH HAI"; $foo does role { method Bool { False } }; say ?$foo; say $foo 20:01
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤OH HAI␤»
masak it's false, yet it's equal to something... :) 20:01
masak (actually, it just boolifies to False. but still) 20:02
prammer masak: you're probably right 20:07
masak I suspect I am. if I'm worried that a hash key might not exist, I (a) wouldn't string-compare it to 'Any()' in the first place, but (b) use .exists or :exists instead. 20:08
sorear hi #perl6. 20:10
masak sorear! \o/ 20:11
sorear I'm reading the GObject-Introspection documentation 20:13
the introduction paragraph is, I quote, "Bla bla bla bla blah"
this doesn't bode well 20:14
masak :/ 20:15
masak lol! and yes, point. funcall.blogspot.com/2011/03/tail-r...gging.html 20:37
by the way, the spec is totally silent on tail call optimizations. 20:41
it mentions 'tail call' once, in the context of callsame/callwith.
but a tail call does not in itself imply a tail call optimization.
Tene I note, btw, that hashes with fixed sets of keys should be fairly optimizable with 6model
masak 6model++ 20:42
Tene Some of them, at least. :) 20:42
masak I've had occasion to go back to perlmonks threads from 2003, and the optimism from various people about what Perl 6 will be able to do is sometimes... saddening in hindsight. :/ 20:43
masak Perl 6 will definitely be able to optimize those tail calls if you ask the perlmonks threads as of 2003. 20:43
not to mention it'll be faster in various respects, thanks to Parrot. 20:44
masak threads. Perl 6 will handle threads from the start. 20:46
(yes, Niecza does that. sorear++)
tadzik Happy Programmers' Day #perl6! 20:52
masak April 1st is Programmers' Day? 20:54
is it because programmers are fools? :P
tadzik ha, almost-gotcha
you were supposed to say "hey, that's not today, is it?"
masak :P 20:55
the only reason I didn't google for it is that it's Friday evening and I'm feeling lazy. :)
rakudo: sub infix:<;>($a, $b) { $a, $b }; say [5;42].perl 20:56
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«[5, 42]␤»
masak \o/
rakudo: sub infix:<;>($a, $b) { $a, $b }; say [5;42;14].perl
tadzik whoa, whoa :)
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«[(5, 42), 14]␤»
masak close enuf.
masak tadzik: in my spare time, I'm experimenting with emulating S09 :) 20:56
tadzik yeah, seen that 20:57
tadzik oh, I should finish my proposal and maybe send it 20:57
masak just like I should sign up as a GSoC menthol. 21:01
mentor. not menthol. mentor. :P
masak let's see... I still can't set the operator precedence of a user-defined operator, can I? 21:03
moritz OMG, the amazon advertising API returns the weight of books in "hundreth pounds", and the dimensions in "hundreth inches" 21:04
moritz masak: no, you can't 21:04
masak moritz: pounds and inches are so pre-enlightenment. 21:05
moritz masak: yes. And fractions thereof even more so 21:06
imagine "milli horse power"
moritz or british thermal units / (one score) 21:06
Tene I remember on one physics test back in university, I gave all velocities measured in furlongs per fortnight. 21:07
tadzik british thermal units? Like "Green Tea", "Earl Grey" and so on? 21:08
masak moritz: well, I think the "hundredths" pattern as such is likely a sign of design sanity. it makes a lot of sense to treat money as integer multiples of the lowest monetary unit, for example.
moritz: and the Android API measures progress bars in steps of .01%, and does integer multiples of those. 21:09
moritz masak: hm, right
tadzik: BTU is like Joule, just not enlightened
masak Tene: I like the length unit "beard second", in analogy with "light year".
tadzik tries to connect beard with lignt 21:10
moritz "bright, fast-growing beard"? 21:12
masak pushes the buzzer 21:13
"Who is Albus Dumbledore?"
oh wait, what am I doing inside this overpowered IBM supercomputer? 21:14
tadzik btw, I got quite turned off HPatMoR after Harry blackmails and threatens Dumbledore and friends and actually wins the argument with almost no consequences 21:17
masak it was a very uncharacteristic thing for a child to do. 21:18
but the Harry in MoR is not normal.
tadzik sure. But I was like "oh, come on". Alike feeling like with Narnia, when a boy betrays his sister and brother for the chocolates and is then called by them "Edward the Just" 21:19
masak also, consider that this all takes place against the unspoken backdrop of the canon, where Snape gets to be an unstopped bully the whole time. 21:20
tadzik Here it's like "Oh, so Harry is an überpower kid who can do everything he wants and is always The Man. Meh, good to know"
masak interesting. I think Eliezer is very aware of that effect and tries to avoid it. 21:21
tadzik OTOH, I don't have any more sensemaking on my mind 21:22
s/any/anything/
masak that's the impression I got from reading the Author's Notes and "The First Law of Fanfiction".
tadzik: oh, and I hadn't reflected on the "Edward the Just" thing :P 21:23
tadzik and the story of Harry getting angry, threatening Snape and wanting to change the situation is quite expected and funny, but I got quite disappointed at how it all ended
masak: I haven't read the book (Narnia), I was just seeing the film with dozens of kids on a scouting winter camp. Kids were amazed, I was... 21:24
phenny: "zdegustowany"?
phenny tadzik: "sick" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
tadzik not really
well, I was just too naive and silly for me. But I guess the book is better, as almost always 21:25
moritz found the Harry vs. Snape part quite amusing, given that with the background info from the "real" HP, harry was actually fighting the "wrong" one
phenny: "belehrend"? 21:26
phenny moritz: "didactic" (de to en, translate.google.com)
tadzik well, the fact that Snape is not the father of all evil in the book does not change the fact that he's an ass to the students
anyway, back to the point: the book doesn't get worse over time, does it? 21:30
masak tadzik: maybe the word you're looking for is something like "unconvinced". that's what happens when the suspension of disbelief breaks. 21:41
PerlJam masak: have you signed up to be a GSoC mentor?
masak no :/ 21:42
masak does that
PerlJam sure hopes next week sees an increase in the proposals actually submitted. 21:44
pmichaud good afternoon, #perl6 21:47
PerlJam gutenTag herr pmichaud 21:49
tadzik hello pmichaud 21:51
masak on the gsoc mentor signup page: "gender: male/female/other"
tadzik shame it's not an entry field, like in Diaspora
PerlJam masak: I think that as "unintentional" (developer humor showing through into production) 21:53
At least it doesn't feel intentional.
masak PerlJam: I've now sent a mentor request to TPF. 21:54
phenny: "helt slut efter arbetsveckan"? 21:55
phenny masak: "exhausted after the working week" (sv to en, translate.google.com)
pmichaud I have to get my presentation ready for tomorrow. :-|
masak phenny: "förändringsobenägen"?
phenny masak: Language guessing failed, so try suggesting one!
masak pmichaud: what presentation is that? 21:56
pmichaud texaslinuxfest.org/sessions/rakudo-perl-6
PerlJam pmichaud: Are you going to make a day-trip out of it?
pmichaud PerlJam: I'm already in austin
PerlJam ah
pmichaud spending the night here tonight, returning home tomorrow after the conference
pmichaud I figured that driving both to and from austin (and the conference itself) in a single day was pushing it a bit. 21:58
PerlJam pmichaud: did you ever meet Ryan Edwards (student worker)? He's in SA now. I told him to stop by and heckle you if he goes to TLF :) 21:58
pmichaud The name is familiar, so I think yes. I'm expecting I'll get a fair number of hecklers. :-)
tadzik self.zzzz 22:00
masak rakudo: class Tadzik { method zzzz { sleep 8 * 3600 }; method sleep { self.zzzz } }; Tadzik.new.sleep; say "awake!" 22:04
p6eval rakudo 4bf132: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
masak obviusly, the p6eval timeout is much too short.
PerlJam No, Perl thinks tadzik needs a timeout
masak isn't that what sleep is? 22:05
a timeout from all this awake business.
pmichaud it's more of an alarm, I think :-)
masak when Zhuang Zi dreamt he was a butterfly 2400 years ago, did he dream he was a butterfly with a wingspan of three meters? 22:07
pmichaud afk for a while 22:10
masak 'night, #perl6. 23:04
Tene phenny: tell masak about ethanschoonover.com/solarized 23:11
phenny Tene: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
flussence_ saw that earlier. Looks pretty good, haven't tried it yet. 23:13
sorear looks as though Debian doesn't have GTK 3 yet. 23:44

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