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Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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Moukeddar hello 01:19
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sorear hi 01:19
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Moukeddar what's up? 01:19
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katelynn hey im english and i love spainard guys :) 04:55
sorear katelynn: This is a programming channel.
katelynn so
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mathw phenny: tell masak I think someone should write a module to allow whitespace postfix operators, just for the sake of obfuscated code competitions. 07:32
phenny mathw: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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tadzik good morning 07:52
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masak morning, zebras 07:59
phenny masak: 07:32Z <mathw> tell masak I think someone should write a module to allow whitespace postfix operators, just for the sake of obfuscated code competitions.
masak :)
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tadzik github.com/blog/846-new-issues-and-gist-api 08:09
the one-api-call-per-second limit is no more
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cognominal masak. hi. will you be able to talk at fpw? 08:13
I know that you and jnthn are organizing npw just before 08:14
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masak cognominal: nothing's final, but it is looking a little difficult to make it to fpw. not so much because of npw as because of $work. 08:25
cognominal thx, I just want to know :) you are welcome with or without talks 08:28
mberends -> alpine lodge &
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moritz good morning 08:37
masak o/ 08:39
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pmurias hi 12:15
phenny pmurias: 28 Apr 03:17Z <sorear> tell pmurias I don't like the way Proxy overloads new. IMHO $class.new.WHAT should always === $class
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colomon \o 12:21
moritz o/ 12:22
uniejo_ o/ 12:24
colomon Perl 6 talk went pretty well yesterday, I think.
masak 'o-
\o/
colomon masak: are you... fencing?
masak wrong keyboard layout.
colomon I squeezed it in exactly in the alloted time. 12:25
tadzik colomon: what were the reactions?
colomon some interest, especially about grammars, which seemed to go over very well.
one person worried that it would be too easy to make utterly cryptic code. 12:26
pmurias colomon: which features caused that worry?
colomon probably mostly the wild profusion of operators. 12:27
about five minutes after it was over, I realized i was shaking badly. hopefully won't be so nervous next time around. :) 12:28
tadzik hugme: hug colomon
hugme hugs colomon
arnsholt :w
masak hugs arnsholt, good vim user
arnsholt Er, opps. Wrong window ^_^
tadzik I have an alias for that
alias :w='echo vim is on another window' 12:29
arnsholt =D
masak :) 12:31
moritz I'm sure you could write an irssi plugin for that too 12:35
arnsholt D'oh. Science is hard 12:38
(Last minute significance tests are not recommended =)
tadzik Moukeddar was at least partly right about pandas: Moukeddar 12:40
whoops, copypaste fail: miscpix.com/zrqa3
colomon arnsholt: Is that like hacking for days and then discovering your fantastic optimization idea actually makes the code slower?
arnsholt Yeah, kinda. Or at least makes no difference =) 12:41
All the numbers from one of my experiments are a bit worse than the other number, but they turn out to not be significantly different 12:43
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Moukeddar hello 13:22
masak Moukeddar! \o/
tadzik Moukeddar: hello
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tadzik Have some evil pandas: miscpix.com/zrqa3 13:23
Moukeddar how are you doing ?
tadzik good thanks
. o O ( "you're looking good" - "pardon?" - "I said you're looking good" - "fair enough" )
Moukeddar here is the Evil Panda 13:24
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyRvzeNuqa4
the Cheese Overlord
SFW
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Moukeddar watched the video? 13:26
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tadzik as a Panda fan, I disapprove of this 13:30
Moukeddar hehe
while i was watching it
all i thought was ; Perl :p
masak that is one evil panda. 13:31
colomon had not considered that there might be NSFW pandas
Moukeddar nsfw pandas ? 13:32
that's new :
well , AFAIL pandas support the Right wing Political Machine 13:33
that's NSFW
AFAIK* 13:36
pmurias Moukeddar: isn't pasting youtube videos about pandas a bit of topic for #perl6?
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Moukeddar it's an example for Evil pandas 13:36
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Moukeddar is learning UML crucial ? 14:05
arnsholt Not necessarily, but learning how to best structure an application is, I'd argue 14:06
Learning UML can help with that 14:07
Moukeddar is it easy? 14:08
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masak to learn how to best structure an application? no. 14:11
it's like learning how to play Go. learn the basics in 15 minutes, and then it still takes a lifetime to master.
Moukeddar ah , ok :) 14:12
it's just nice to have a design reference instead of your own brain :)
masak a "design reference"? 14:13
Moukeddar yes classes design
i usually use a paper :)
to draw some primitive info 14:14
masak here's my journey so far: I didn't have much respect for design up front. I usually dove right in and then came back to design after I had at least a working prototype.
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masak lately I've been coming to appreciate that for big enough systems, you'll want to do some modeling before diving into the coding. 14:15
Moukeddar masak, i didn't gave it any respect either , but after reading and getting deeper , it looked like a crucial requirement now
tadzik wonders, whether it makes sense to treat Pod things like B<> identically as blocks 14:16
masak Moukeddar: I'm still a big believer of making a working prototype of things.
Moukeddar masak, i'm stiff confused :) 14:17
masak Moukeddar: and I don't believe there's one single Right Design that one will arrive at on the first attempt.
Moukeddar still lol
masak one nice thing about CQRS and read-side/write-side is that one can have several models working together in the same application. each model tailored to some purpose.
tadzik Formatting codes are themselves a type of block, and most of them may nest sequences of any other type of block (most often, other formatting codes). In particular, you can nest comment blocks in the middle of a formatting code 14:18
pretty much blocks, methinks
masak sounds like.
tadzik And so thinks Perl6::Pod 14:21
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tadzik updates gsocmess 14:24
masak Moukeddar: may I recommend a presentation to you?
Moukeddar yes , of course 14:25
masak www.infoq.com/presentations/model-to-work-evans 14:27
Moukeddar DDD :) 14:28
one other thing 14:33
what's agility ?
masak it's the idea that you should check back with the customer often to see if you're building what they want :) 14:34
there's more to it, but that seems to be the core message.
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masak see www.extremeprogramming.org/ for more. 14:34
Moukeddar for someone at my stage , it's an overkill 14:35
but never hurts to know :) 14:36
masak there are nice practices to borrow from agile, if you ask me.
the 'release early, release often' being perhaps the most important.
pmurias masak: the biggest obstacle to upfront design i encounter with a lot of stuff is that while implementing things i discover the data my program transform is vastly different then i imagined before 14:37
tadzik loliblug: ttjjss.wordpress.com/2011/05/01/gsoc/
masak pmurias: right. implementing contains discovery, beyond the things that were known during deisgn. 14:39
tadzik++ # bleg
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Moukeddar blag (blague) = joke in french 14:41
masak phenny: fr "blague"? 14:42
phenny masak: "joke" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
Moukeddar :) 14:43
gtg
masak phenny: "mon blog est une blague"?
phenny masak: "My blog is a joke" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
Moukeddar TTYL
masak o/
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masak will try to get a Yapsi release out the door today 14:51
tadzik any new funny stuff? 14:55
masak hopefully.
I'll try to get ENTER phasers in today.
tadzik don't forget about BACKSPACE
masak :P
niecza: say 42; ENTER { say "OH HAI" } 14:56
p6eval niecza v4-76-g7bf5ef9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Action method statement_prefix:ENTER not yet implemented at /tmp/mRxPb3sLz1 line 1 (EOF):␤------> say 42; ENTER { say "OH HAI" }⏏<EOL>␤␤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method statement_level in class Str␤ at
../home/p6eval/ni…
masak pugs: say 42; ENTER { say "OH HAI" }
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤42␤»
masak oh, Pugs has it, of course :P
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tadzik I need a print of S26 14:56
masak blog post suggestion for some eager young soul: "things Pugs has that Rakudo doesn't".
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tadzik shame there's nothing that can parse it and format it nicely :)( 15:00
pmurias didn't Damian write a Pod parser? 15:01
masak he did.
and it outputs HTML, IIRC.
s/outputs/can output/
tadzik I tried Perl6::Pod, it ended almost fine 15:04
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masak proto sub gcd($x, $y) { $x.gcd($y); } 15:11
anyone mind if I make this one take a slurpy array of values?
and add a corresponding lcm proto?
arnsholt Sounds good to me 15:12
masak makes it so 15:14
just have to run the spectests for half an hour, make the change, then run them again :P
like a good citizen.
'course, I could just run t/spec/S32-num/gcd.t... 15:15
but no, there are other things depending on the gcd builtin, like jnthn++ pointed out.
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arnsholt There are always other things depending I'd say =) 15:18
jnthn Rat uses gcd, iirc. 15:20
masak I'm getting lots of "Dubious, test returned 1 (wstat 256, 0x100)" running the spectests.
moritz it does
masak I thought we fixed that.
also 15:21
moritz masak: which parrot version do you use?
masak t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/subscripts_and_context.t ......... Failed 1/8 subtests
moritz: I'll check.
moritz ./perl6 -v
tells you
masak This is Rakudo Perl 6, version 2011.04-2-gecc4efa built on parrot 3.3.0 RELEASE_3_3_0-60-g97c32c7 15:22
moritz masak: I've also had lots of test failures with post-release parrots 15:23
masak also, in related bad news, Yapsi's t/runtime.t segfaults after test 26? :(
moritz: ok, I'll go back to the release one then.
moritz masak: so far my calls for confirming that have been unanswered. Thanks for testing that
masak don't mention it. :) 15:24
tadzik oh, I has an idea! 15:32
Test::Mock wraps methods and counts the number of executions
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masak which is way cool, by the way. 15:33
tadzik why not wrap methods to count the execution time using Benchmark module? We get a simple profiler
masak interesting. worth a shot.
tadzik investigates Test::Mock
masak another thing we could do... wrap methods to collect method dependency data. 15:34
moritz I guess it does nasty introspection, and then mixes in roles which shadow the original methods
masak in all fairness, this is what I would call the "proper" place for introspection. 15:35
moritz right 15:36
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masak correct. introspection here: github.com/jnthn/test-mock/blob/ma...ock.pm#L53 15:36
I must say that is some nice code. 15:37
jnthn Easier after nom will be to just subclass ClassHOW and override find_method or some such :)
Hmm, though that's only part of the story I guess.
tadzik jnthn: any ideas about supplying arguments to the .new method in Test::Mock? 15:38
masak overriding find_method. oh wow.
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jnthn tadzik: Maybe mocked($obj) should also have possibility to pass in a capture for new_args or something 15:41
mocked(Dog, with => \($number_of_tails)) or something 15:42
tadzik jnthn: I tried that, no success, although that was probably on the Holland Hackathon and looking at the code now I'm not sure what was on my mind :)
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tadzik oh wait, that was easy 15:43
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jnthn tadzik: Should just be change to line 46 and another to line 72 15:44
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tadzik jnthn: like this? nopaste.snit.ch/43066 15:49
jnthn :$newargs = \()
Well, guess the hash works too... 15:50
But maybe the empty capture is clearer.
tadzik :%newargs didn't help
jnthn Hm
tadzik and \() neither did
jnthn didn't help kinda tells me nothing 15:51
tadzik :)
well, the tests are still failing
jnthn In the case here you're passing something though 15:52
so the default wouldn't matter there
tadzik well, the standard tests still work
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tadzik in either case 15:52
jnthn oh 15:53
I guess it mocked the accessor for x too :)
tadzik :)
jnthn Bet if you change if $.x {
to if $!x { then it works... :)
(test 2 that is... 15:54
)
tadzik Method 'wrap' not found for invocant of class 'Sub'
that sounds wrongish
jnthn huh
How'd you get it to do that?
tadzik $m.wrap: { say "lol calling!"; callsame }; on line 61 15:55
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jnthn oh 15:56
yeah, I didn't use wrapping anywhere in the module :)
tadzik well, I'd need to :) 15:57
jnthn I don't see why.
tadzik I'll be wrapping this in timethis()
jnthn In fact, you'd be twiddling the original method
Which is really wrong.
tadzik hmm 15:58
masak g'ah!
jnthn I agree the wrap shoudln't fail but Test::Mock certainly should never touch the original method.
masak src/gc/gc_gms.c:2342: failed assertion 'Dead object found!'
seems I can't win with this Parrot thing.
jnthn masak: grrr. :/
tadzik well, now I'm just experimenting using the Test::Mock code
jnthn masak: Is that with latest?
masak that's the 3.3 release commit, far as I can tell.
jnthn :(
tadzik shit
masak latest was the one that gave me a segfault. 15:59
jnthn Quite possibly related.
Does building without generational GC help?
If so, it'll be a missing write barrier.
masak how do I do that?
tadzik pass --gc=ms2 to the parrot's Configure.pl 16:00
masak thanks.
tadzik afk
moritz should be the default for 3.3
jnthn --gc=(type) Which implementation of GC to use. One of ms, ms2 or gms
moritz: gengc was default for 3.3, or ms2? 16:01
tadzik ms2 was default
moritz right
jnthn ah
tadzik but Rakudo's using gms anyway
jnthn ok
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Moukeddar ello 16:02
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masak oh hai 16:03
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Moukeddar i'm watchin that presentation , that guy is a genius :) 16:04
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masak yes, he's very good. 16:08
moritz which presentation?
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Moukeddar the "Puting the model to work " 16:09
masak moritz: <masak> www.infoq.com/presentations/model-to-work-evans 16:17
&
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dalek p: 105839b | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Resolve issue #9 reported by masak++ that meant that use nqp; was not possible. Actually fixes the root issue which is that if you try to load a module that is the actual program that is running - even if it's in a compilation managed by that program.
 16:31
tadzik $mocker.$m.wrap: sub (|$args) { callwith(|$args) }; -- that be just a wrapper doing nothing, not breaking argument passing, yes? 16:32
jnthn Yeah but you may as well have written callsame() if you're just going to pass the same arguments along. 16:33
tadzik rakudo: sub a($a, $b) { say "$a $b"; }; &a.wrap: sub (|$args) { say 'pfff!'; callwith($a, $b) }; a(5, 6)
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$a' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/Dc8v4Pp0mA:22)␤»
tadzik jnthn: yeah, I was just trying callwith() because callsame wasn't working :) 16:34
rakudo: sub a($a, $b) { say "$a $b"; }; &a.wrap: sub (|$args) { say 'pfff!'; callwith($args) }; a(5, 6)
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«pfff!␤Null PMC access in type()␤ in 'a' at line 1:/tmp/0lnjzT52wJ␤ in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/0lnjzT52wJ␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
tadzik rakudo: sub a($a, $b) { say "$a $b"; }; &a.wrap: sub (|$args) { say 'pfff!'; callsame; }; a(5, 6)
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«pfff!␤5 6␤»
tadzik okay...
rakudo: class A { method B ($a, $b) { say "$a $b" } }; A.&B.wrap: sub... oh wait 16:35
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &B␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/Ro4mKmHjWn␤»
tadzik yeah, that should be method, not sub
shame that's not helping :| 16:36
jnthn closes various nqp tickets
tadzik rakudo: class A { method B ($a, $b) { say "$a $b" } }; A.&B.wrap: method (|$args) { say 'pff!'; callsame; }; A.new.B(4, 3); 16:39
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &B␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/nzoK5ZFof2␤»
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masak \o/ # issue 9 fixed. jnthn++ 17:17
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masak would anyone be so kind as trying to reproduce the GC write barrier error message in the Yapsi tests? 17:25
latest Parrot, latest Rakudo, latest Yapsi. t/runtime.t. after test 24.
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jnthn masak: Wait...did it also show up under gc=ms2? 17:28
If so, it's not a write barrier issue.
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dalek rixel: cb46e98 | diakopter++ | / (6 files):
[perlesque] some regex alternation codegen refactoring
 17:42
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TimToady std: sub postfix:< > ($x) {...} 17:46
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $starter in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value $stopper in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value
..$starte…
TimToady I see std is still not updating regularly
moritz curious, there's a cronjob for it 17:47
std: sub postfix:< > ($x) {...} 17:48
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $starter in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value $stopper in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value
..$starte…
TimToady the change was to CursorBase.pmc, so maybe some dependency is borken 17:49
moritz that's the std that 'make snap' gives me
hm
TimToady hmm, I was just doing make in the top dir
moritz ./viv -e complains
maybe some path mismatch?
TimToady /usr/local/share doesn't look right 17:50
seems to be picking up a version installed in the perl 5 dir
moritz that might be from the times where we installed STD from CPAN for niecza
diakopter listens 17:51
TimToady have to go whack the drums, will check back later &
moritz std: sub postfix:< > ($x) {...} 17:52
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $starter in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value $stopper in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value
..$starte…
17:52 p6eval left, p6eval joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v p6eval, p6eval left 17:53 p6eval joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v p6eval
moritz std: sub postfix:< > ($x) {...} 17:53
diakopter heh
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $starter in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value $stopper in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value
..$starte…
17:53 p6eval left
moritz fixes perlbrew on p6eval host 17:56
18:07 risou left 18:12 orafu left 18:21 ggoebel__ left, ggoebel joined 18:24 birdwindupbird left 18:27 p6eval joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v p6eval
moritz std: 1 18:27
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Can't locate Moose.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/site_perl/5.12.2/x86_64-linux /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/site_perl/5.12.2 /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/5.12.2/x86_64-linux 18:28
../home/p6eval/perl5/…
moritz at least it picks up the right perl
and Moose is just one cpanm command (and many minutes of waiting) away 18:29
18:30 SHODAN joined 18:32 [Coke] left
masak jnthn: I'd better double-check. 18:33
18:33 [Coke] joined 18:37 ggoebel left, ggoebel joined 18:39 ggoebel left
masak fwiw, I don't like the method .gcd 18:39
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mathw what does it do? 18:41
what would you like it to do? 18:42
And can I have a pony?
18:42 estrabd joined
SHODAN greatest common divisor? 18:43
masak right.
I like the gcd(x,y) form, but I have no sympathy for x.gcd(y) 18:44
mathw ...
that's weird
I can understand (list of numbers).gcd
but not (single number).gcd
jasonmay github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master...tch.t#L167 18:45
^ is that best practice for handling a die in a CATCH?
moritz it sounds like gcd should be an infix (same precedence as infix % ?), and [gcd] would be the normal reduction 18:46
mathw good point
That's a much better idea
18:50 alester joined 18:51 mberends joined
mberends \o/ @alps == @rocks 18:51
alester ping pmichaud
masak jnthn: problem goes away with gc=ms2 18:52
sorear moritz: that's the way it obviously should be
tadzik mberends: well, what did you expect? Trees? :P 18:53
sorear Lava?
mberends oh yeah, @alps has @.trees 18:54
masak I think you're reading too much into mberends' statement. 18:57
all he said is that there are as many alps as there are rocks :P 18:58
jnthn mberends: Which bit of the alps? :)
mberends it would be difficult to count them for a proof, but indeed I was thinking what masak was thinking. 18:59
18:59 cotto left
diakopter std: . 18:59
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Can't locate YAML/XS.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/site_perl/5.12.2/x86_64-linux /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/site_perl/5.12.2 /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/5.12.2/x86_64-linux
../home/p6eval/perl…
19:00 cotto joined
mberends jnthn: a Slovenian bit near Ljubljana, friends have a chalet here :) 19:01
19:02 daxim__ left
jnthn mberends: nice! :) 19:03
Nice views and Lasko! :) 19:04
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dalek p/ctmo: 4679b68 | jonathan++ | src/core/NQPMu.pm:
Fix a type-o. Detected by in-progress typename handling work.
 19:12
p/ctmo: 556b715 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
Resolve typename at compile time.
p/ctmo: 3564e72 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
Add parrot v-table overrides through the compile time meta-object.
p/ctmo: f993bf4 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Attach multi signatures during normal fixup stage, not as special loadinits. Should cut startup time a little. Also resolves the multi-method regression introduced earlier in this branch.
masak yay for stricter type handling detecting type-os in the circularity circle! ;) 19:20
jnthn NQP has been able to detect many problems with itself. 19:22
masak it doesn't apply just to bootstrappisms.
jnthn
.oO( oh noes...it's self-aware! )
moritz jnthn: are you aware of a failure in t/nqp/56-role.t 19:23
masak I generally try to structure things nowadays so that the program gives a shout if I do something unintended.
jnthn moritz: Very very much so.
moritz ok
jnthn moritz: It's a *really* hard problem.
moritz :(
masak why?
jnthn The last one before nqp is done enough for digging into rakudo/nom
masak curious
jnthn masak: All of the meta-objects are now constructed at compile time. That means that methods kinda need to end up in the meta-object at compile time...apart from we didn't compile them yet, so they need to be fixed up with the real thing a little later on. 19:25
That much works. But with roles the methods get cloned and associated with multiple incarnations of the role body - one per parameterization.
masak nod 19:26
jnthn All roles are parametric really, since $?CLASS is generic when mentioned in a class.
masak so, each role incarnation requires some extra compilation?
jnthn Not really
Just some extra fixing up
masak ok.
jnthn It's just working out how to track all of those bits. 19:27
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tadzik jnthn: so after that is fixed Rakudo will slowly start using the new nqp, so we get ponies, cheesburgers, and bugs magically getting fixed? :) 19:33
masak we're up to 860 new/open rakudobugs, by the way. 19:34
I'm thinking of switching vocations and begin to close them instead :P
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jnthn tadzik: Yes 19:35
tadzik oh no, who will be opening them then? :(
19:36 Helios left
tadzik btw, you were saying something about a bugfix party on weekend. Sound like time 19:36
jnthn: cool :)
jnthn tadzik: Hoping to get to that point by Wednesday.
tadzik awesome!
19:36 Helios joined
tadzik seen worr 19:37
aloha worr was last seen in #perl6 44 days 15 hours ago saying "sorry about that".
tadzik rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=84966 I think this was merged and is now closable 19:38
rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=84950 this too
rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=84948 and this
rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=83866 confirmed fixed by the author 19:39
...anyone with permissions to help me sort this stuff? :) 19:40
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moritz tadzik: do you have an RT nick? 19:41
tadzik moritz: yes, I even was given those perms some time ago, it's just that these don't work
or didn't
moritz let's ping pmichaud over it 19:42
tadzik and I'm tadzik
19:42 MayDaniel joined
moritz closes tickets 19:44
tadzik++
done 19:45
tadzik rakudo: say "fuubar".comb.perl
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«("f", "u", "u", "b", "a", "r")␤»
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tadzik so that's just going letter-by-letter, right? 19:45
moritz yes
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masak rakudo: say "fuubar".split.perl 19:46
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'split'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu : Regex $matcher, Any $limit = { ... }, Any :all($all);; *%_)␤:(Mu : Any $delimiter, Any $limit = { ... }, Any :all($all);; *%_)␤␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/_ApMzdEpNL␤»
tadzik there are times when I _so_ miss array indexes on strings
masak tadzik: write a pragma. 19:47
or a module.
rakudo: sub foo(@x) { say @x.perl }; foo <a b c>; foo <d> # I keep falling into this trap 19:49
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«("a", "b", "c")␤Nominal type check failed for parameter '@x'; expected Positional but got Str instead␤ in 'foo' at line 1:/tmp/oFASGUloGV␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/oFASGUloGV␤»
masak it's a tricky one, because different things should look different, and they don't in this case.
sorear niecza: sub postcircumfix:<[ ]>($str, $ix) { $str.substr($ix, 1) }; say "Hello"[2] 19:50
p6eval niecza v4-76-g7bf5ef9: OUTPUT«l␤»
moritz still thinks that postcircumfix needs to be a method
19:50 MayDaniel left
jnthn agrees with moritz 19:50
masak rakudo: sub foo(@x) { say @x.perl }; foo <a b c>; foo ('d',) # and THIS is the solution!? 19:51
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«("a", "b", "c")␤("d", )␤»
masak why must postcircumfix be a method? 19:52
jnthn rakudo: sub foo(@x) { say @x.perl }; foo <a b c>; foo [<d>] # cuter solution
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«("a", "b", "c")␤["d"]␤»
masak jnthn: but still. the [] introduce an assymetry.
tadzik rakudo: sub stupidcomb($a) { gather for 1..$a.chars { take $a.substr($_ - 1, $_) } }; say stupidcomb("foobar").perl
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«("f", "oo", "oba", "bar", "ar", "r")␤» 19:53
sorear postcircumfix needs to be both a sub and a method
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sorear it can't be just a method, because everything that modifies the grammar needs lexical scope 19:53
moritz probably, yes
jnthn masak: Because otherwise types can't so easily control how they respond to e.g. handling ranges.
or other interesting types of slicing
sorear it can't be just a sub, because that would make implementing tied containers vaguely insane 19:54
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tadzik has no idea what happened in stupidcomb() 19:54
jnthn sorear: Where's the grammar modification?
tadzik rakudo: sub stupidcomb($a) { for 1..$a.chars { say $a.substr($_ - 1, $_) } }; stupidcomb("foobar")
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«f␤oo␤oba␤bar␤ar␤r␤»
jnthn sorear: Or do you mean, if new postcircumfixes are added?
sorear niecza: sub postcircumfix<〈 〉>($a, $b) { say $a; say $b }; 1〈3〉 19:55
p6eval niecza v4-76-g7bf5ef9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Any()Malformed block at /tmp/44IP473YgK line 1:␤------> sub postcircumfix⏏<〈 〉>($a, $b) { say $a; say $b }; 1〈3〉␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
sorear niecza: sub postcircumfix:<〈 〉>($a, $b) { say $a; say $b }; 1〈3〉
tadzik rakudo: sub stupidcomb($a) { gather for 1..$a.chars { take $a.substr($_ - 1, 1) } }; say stupidcomb("foobar").perl
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moritz rakudo: sub stupidcomb($a) { for 1..$a.chars { say $a.substr($_ - 1, $_) } }; stupidcomb("foobarbaz") 19:55
p6eval niecza v4-76-g7bf5ef9: OUTPUT«1␤3␤»
rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«("f", "o", "o", "b", "a", "r")␤»
rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«f␤oo␤oba␤barb␤arbaz␤rbaz␤baz␤az␤z␤»
masak arbaz!
tadzik it's ok, I just fail at substr()
it's like Arbuz! \o/
phenny: "arbuz"?
masak :P
phenny tadzik: "watermelon" (lt to en, translate.google.com)
masak like Russian.
tadzik phenny: lt yourself!
moritz tadzik: it's a substr of length 1 starting at 1 19:56
tadzik: then length 2 starting at 2
masak tadzik: in fact, substr in Rakudo isn't to spec.
substr should use *-1, not -1
moritz tadzik: etc... until it hits the end of the string, in which case it shortens
tadzik I see 19:58
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tadzik rakudo: say (1304279895 - 1304279873) / 6; 19:59
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«3.66666666666667␤»
tadzik is testing stupidcomb on some rakudo source files 20:00
I already killed Str.comb on Perl6/Actions.pm, I stopped believing it'd ever finish
I wonder if stupidcomb could have been done efficiently than with substr. Deep inside my heart I believe "foo".substr($a, 1) somewhere deep in Parrot becomes just *(foo + $a) :) 20:02
rakudo: say (1304280046 - 1304279951) / (1304280153 - 1304280117) 20:03
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«2.63888888888889␤»
tadzik still a lot better. Any better ideas for a fix for rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=85602 ?
sorear tadzik: if "foo" contains unicode chars, "foo".substr becomes O(N) since it has to count chars one at a time 20:04
tadzik oh, right
sorear tadzik: fixed width Unicode encodings are not supported on Parrot/Win32
tadzik I don't see any smarter way, looking at Parrot's string opcodes 20:05
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tadzik sorear: any ideas 20:06
?
sorear ISTR that in Parrot, my $str = ("a" x 1e8).substr(0,1); retains all 1e8 bytes of memory
can anyone deny this?
jnthn sorear: Try #parrot :) 20:07
sorear: I'd like to hope not but it wouldn't surprise me.
sorear I don't think it would be polite to bring this up there 20:08
masak right! show some respect! :P
<sarcasm>people should never have to have their design questioned. it's not polite.</sarcasm> 20:09
sorear masak: #parrot knows that their design sucks 20:10
they're just overworked, and I can't legally help them
tadzik rakudo: say "hello".substr(*-1, 1)
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤ in 'Cool::Num' at line 1918:CORE.setting␤ in 'Cool::Num' at line 1918:CORE.setting␤ in 'Cool::Numeric' at line 1905:CORE.setting␤ in 'Cool::Numeric' at line 1905:CORE.setting␤ in 'Cool::Num' at line 7613:CORE.setting␤ in 'Cool::Numeric'
..at li…
masak sorear: legally?
tadzik rakudo: say $*PERL.perl 20:14
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«{"name" => "rakudo", "version" => "2011.04-3-g8533c3c"}␤»
tadzik version should be just 6, no?
$*PERL Which Perl I'm running under
also rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=79294
20:15 molaf left
masak sorear: are you just referring to the agreement one has to sign as a Parrot dev? 20:16
tadzik rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=80668 -- that looks like a problem of missing make install, but it's a bit old anyway: should this end as "try the new version or we're closing this in a week time 20:17
" or somethins?
sorear masak: yes 20:18
masak ah.
tadzik rakudo: say Attribute ~~ Cool
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
20:19 pochi left 20:20 birdwindupbird left
tadzik rakudo: say NaN.Rat 20:20
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«-9.22337203685478e+18␤»
tadzik ahaha :)
20:21 pochi joined
masak hides face in hands 20:21
well, at least now we know what number NaN is... :) 20:22
tadzik I think rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=77738 and rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=77740 can be merged into one somehow 20:23
masak merge higher-numbered ones into lower-numbered ones, says pmichaud. 20:24
pmurias sorear: why would you helping #parrot be illegal? 20:26
sorear pmurias: I can help, just not with code
pmurias: PaFo wants licensing agreements, and I lack any capability for sending a signed document to PaFo 20:27
20:27 [Coke] left
sorear presumably I could buy stamps somewhere 20:27
pmurias sorear: where do you live?
tadzik sorear: you can scan and email that, I did this 20:28
pmurias sorear: you could clone the repo at github and just have them pull your commits
sorear tadzik: that would require a scanner
tadzik right
pmurias sorear: the documents is only for the commit bit AFAIK 20:29
tadzik maybe you can get away with a digital camera, if you have one
20:29 [Coke] joined, plobsing joined
pmurias sorear: don't any of your friends have a scanner? 20:30
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masak Yapsi commints coming up... 20:33
commits*
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dalek psi: a7d23db | masak++ | / (3 files):
[Yapsi] added ENTER phaser

And it works! Not bad.		 20:36
psi: 65d99c1 | masak++ | doc/ (3 files):
[doc] updated documents
psi: a675900 | masak++ | lib/Yapsi.pm:
[Yapsi] bumped version number

Might as well have it conform to the name of the release.
20:36 [Coke] joined 20:37 Trashlord joined 20:38 mberends left, icwiener left
dalek kudo: 6ca6140 | tadzik++ | src/core/Cool-str.pm:
Simplify and optimize the trivial case of Str.comb(). RT #85602
 20:41
p/ctmo: eed9b67 | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (6 files):
Update the bootstrap with the various branch changes so far.
 20:44
p/ctmo: c74cce8 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Refactor to generate the prefixes list during the actions stage rather than using the one built in the regex compiler. This means it can be added through the compile-time meta-objects.
p/ctmo: 519ef59 | jonathan++ | src/stage0/ (6 files):
Update bootstrap.
p/ctmo: b6e14db | jonathan++ | src/PAST/Compiler-Regex.pir:
Remove now-unused prefix routine code-gen from the regex compiler.
jnthn phenny: tell pmichaud I managed to resolve the prefixes method issue relatively easily in the end. :)
phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
20:48 [Coke] left
masak yo people. Yapsi announcement. 20:49
github.com/masak/yapsi/blob/9e6667...ce/2011.05
reviews welcome.
20:50 [Coke] joined, Helios left 20:51 Helios joined
dalek psi: 9e66671 | masak++ | doc/announce/2011.05:
[doc/announce/2011.05] added
 20:51
tadzik GAH, now the comb() appears to be slower. Wtf 20:52
tadzik suspects GC
jnthn masak: nice :) 20:54
sorear jnthn: no more prefixes? nqp is using ltm now? 20:55
jnthn sorear: There are prefixes, they're just generated in an earlier phase of the compilation.
sorear: It's not a big deal
sorear: It's just so we have the prefix method to hand at the time we actually construct types now. 20:56
(Which has moved earlier, so it's possible to do gradual typing stuff.) 20:57
20:57 skangas left
dalek p/ctmo: 811d9a5 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
Eliminate a mention of $*PACKAGE-SETUP, which it's now time to start finally killing.
 20:58
masak "it's a setup!" 20:59
jnthn :P 21:00
masak mathw: oh, it's your birthday today?
rakudo: my $HB = 'happy birthday'; my $TU = 'to you'; my $HBTU = "$HB $TU"; .say for $HBTU xx 2, "$HB dear mathw", $HBTU 21:05
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«happy birthday to you␤happy birthday to you␤happy birthday dear mathw␤happy birthday to you␤»
Trashlord haha 21:07
mathw: your day is May 1st too?
(I know in some areas of the world it's already May 2, that's why I'm asking) 21:08
21:11 SHODAN left
masak heh. I have to fix the psyde bug in order to (easily) post the Yapsi announcement on my blog. 21:18
dalek p/ctmo: 1a16b84 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Stub in initial bits towards role building refactor, which removes another usage of $*PACKAGE-SETUP. Finishing that is main task left in this branch.
p/ctmo: f30806d | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Switch .^compose to compile time meta-object. Darn...breaks multi-methods. :/
p/ctmo: 707bae5 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
Remove last remaining usages of $*PACKAGE-SETUP.
masak my bet: it's a hitherto unspotted Rakudo regression.
jnthn Enough NQP for today. "Just" need to fix the two broken test files and then ctmo can be merged and deleted...and rakudo/nom continued. :)
21:20 donri joined
masak oh wait! no, this might be a hitherto untested code path in psyde... I take everything back :) 21:20
jnthn :P :P
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masak nope, it's a bona fide rakudobug. 21:35
rakudo: my %h = 1..8; say %h{7, 5}.perl
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«(8, 6)␤»
masak huh.
getting 'Any' locally.
masak makes sure he has the latest one installed
jnthn rakudo: my %h = 1..8; say %h.perl 21:36
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«{"1" => 2, "3" => 4, "5" => 6, "7" => 8}␤»
masak that one's fine here too.
21:36 Helios joined 21:44 cotto left
masak rakudo: my %h = 1..8; say %h{7, 5}.perl 21:51
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«(8, 6)␤»
masak this still gives "Any" locally.
just compiled. I'm on the same commit.
rakudo: my %h = 1..8; say (%h{$_} for 7, 5).perl 21:52
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«(8, 6)␤»
masak this works, tho'
jnthn huh...
That's...very odd. 21:53
masak might be I'm running a newer Parrot than does p6eval... but why should that make any difference?
jnthn It shouldn't... 21:54
> my %h = 1..8; say %h{7, 5}.perl
(8, 6)
(locally)
Is current Rakudo with the Parrot from PARROT_REVISION. 21:55
masak yeah. I'm not running Parrot from PARROT_REVISION, I'm pretty sure.
I build Parrot separately.
also, I have that gc flag set right now.
jnthn It's hard to imagine a Parrot change that would break *that* but not other things... 21:56
masak rebuilds Parrot, just for fun
21:56 mj41 left
masak yeah. 21:56
jnthn Where are you trying it? REPL?
masak command line, as always.
jnthn With -e? 21:57
masak yes.
jnthn it's not some weird shell escaping thing?
masak nope.
single quotes only.
jnthn Good. Married quotes get troublesom. 21:58
masak how do I set Parrot to tag RELEASE_3_3_0?
jnthn git checkout <tagname>, I thought? 21:59
masak correct. jnthn++ 22:00
heh. as part of this workaround, this is the first time I put a statement_mod for loop inside the list to iterate over in a regular for loop ;) 22:01
jnthn Workarounds. Some of them are weird. 22:03
jnthn sends in the April hours. 22:04
It's May O_O
22:04 spetrea joined
spetrea why is #perl6 on Freenode and #parrot on irc.perl.org ? 22:04
masak historical reasons. 22:05
spetrea masak: was #perl6 at some point on irc.perl.org and then it moved to Freenode ?
masak no, #perl6 was created on Freenode. 22:06
spetrea masak: oh, yet #parrot sits on irc.perl.org
masak yes; I agree that the other way around would make more sense :)
spetrea masak: which other way around ?
there are 2 other ways around 22:07
masak not by the common sense of the term.
I meant that it would be more logical to find #parrot on Freenote and #perl6 on irc.perl.org 22:08
spetrea oh ? hmm
because #parrot is not just Perl
but perl6 is more related to Perl so it should go in irc.perl.org ..
I seem to follow
masak right. 22:09
spetrea ok thanks :)
masak np
jnthn sleep for me & 22:10
masak staying up after jnthn? inconceivable! 22:11
jnthn: downgrading Parrot seems to have helped! o.O 22:12
jnthn Oh noes :|
masak might've been the gc setting, who knows?
jnthn moze byt...
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masak anyway, my blogging software works again, without the workaround \o/ 22:12
22:12 Helios left
jnthn \o/ 22:12
spetrea masak: eating your own dogfood by writing a blogging software in Perl6 ? 22:13
masak yeah, how'd you guess? :)
spetrea sounds like a very good idea , I should do that more often
masak it's 2011, and Rakudo/Parrot continue to surprise... but not in that good/warm/fuzzy way. :/
spetrea why no surprises anymore ?
jnthn masak: Did you use the one in PARROT_REVISION? 22:14
masak let's just say there are some surprises I could live without...
yeah.
jnthn And that had the bug?
spetrea I was watching Damian's presentation, it was quite an itneresting one, but then I paused, went for a smoke, lost track of time & sh*t and forgot about it, I might resume tommorow in the afternoon or smth like that
masak no, Parrot HEAD had the bug.
jnthn Ah, OK
At least that doesn't give too many patches to go bisecting through. 22:15
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masak oh, troo 22:15
I might try upgrading Parrot again and seeing if the error comes back.
jnthn Though it may just be GC option and a case of missing write barrier working out weirdly.
Though you'd often expect segfaults or assert fails from that. 22:16
masak nod
might investigate more tomorrow.
jnthn I put a LOAD of them into nqp recently that were probably needed but never managed to cause an observable problem...yet.
masak strangelyconsistent.org/blog/yapsi-...5-released \o/
jnthn Wouldn't surprise me if Rakudo misses some. 22:17
Anyway....bed o/
masak too
'night, zebras and pandas and lovely butterflies
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