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Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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Moukeddar hello 01:19
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sorear hi 01:19
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Moukeddar what's up? 01:19
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katelynn hey im english and i love spainard guys :) 04:55
sorear katelynn: This is a programming channel.
katelynn so
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mathw phenny: tell masak I think someone should write a module to allow whitespace postfix operators, just for the sake of obfuscated code competitions. 07:32
phenny mathw: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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tadzik good morning 07:52
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masak morning, zebras 07:59
phenny masak: 07:32Z <mathw> tell masak I think someone should write a module to allow whitespace postfix operators, just for the sake of obfuscated code competitions.
masak :)
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tadzik github.com/blog/846-new-issues-and-gist-api 08:09
the one-api-call-per-second limit is no more
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cognominal masak. hi. will you be able to talk at fpw? 08:13
I know that you and jnthn are organizing npw just before 08:14
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masak cognominal: nothing's final, but it is looking a little difficult to make it to fpw. not so much because of npw as because of $work. 08:25
cognominal thx, I just want to know :) you are welcome with or without talks 08:28
mberends -> alpine lodge &
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moritz good morning 08:37
masak o/ 08:39
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pmurias hi 12:15
phenny pmurias: 28 Apr 03:17Z <sorear> tell pmurias I don't like the way Proxy overloads new. IMHO $class.new.WHAT should always === $class
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colomon \o 12:21
moritz o/ 12:22
uniejo_ o/ 12:24
colomon Perl 6 talk went pretty well yesterday, I think.
masak 'o-
colomon masak: are you... fencing?
masak wrong keyboard layout.
colomon I squeezed it in exactly in the alloted time. 12:25
tadzik colomon: what were the reactions?
colomon some interest, especially about grammars, which seemed to go over very well.
one person worried that it would be too easy to make utterly cryptic code. 12:26
pmurias colomon: which features caused that worry?
colomon probably mostly the wild profusion of operators. 12:27
about five minutes after it was over, I realized i was shaking badly. hopefully won't be so nervous next time around. :) 12:28
tadzik hugme: hug colomon
hugme hugs colomon
arnsholt :w
masak hugs arnsholt, good vim user
arnsholt Er, opps. Wrong window ^_^
tadzik I have an alias for that
alias :w='echo vim is on another window' 12:29
arnsholt =D
masak :) 12:31
moritz I'm sure you could write an irssi plugin for that too 12:35
arnsholt D'oh. Science is hard 12:38
(Last minute significance tests are not recommended =)
tadzik Moukeddar was at least partly right about pandas: Moukeddar 12:40
whoops, copypaste fail: miscpix.com/zrqa3
colomon arnsholt: Is that like hacking for days and then discovering your fantastic optimization idea actually makes the code slower?
arnsholt Yeah, kinda. Or at least makes no difference =) 12:41
All the numbers from one of my experiments are a bit worse than the other number, but they turn out to not be significantly different 12:43
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Moukeddar hello 13:22
masak Moukeddar! \o/
tadzik Moukeddar: hello
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tadzik Have some evil pandas: miscpix.com/zrqa3 13:23
Moukeddar how are you doing ?
tadzik good thanks
. o O ( "you're looking good" - "pardon?" - "I said you're looking good" - "fair enough" )
Moukeddar here is the Evil Panda 13:24
the Cheese Overlord
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Moukeddar watched the video? 13:26
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tadzik as a Panda fan, I disapprove of this 13:30
Moukeddar hehe
while i was watching it
all i thought was ; Perl :p
masak that is one evil panda. 13:31
colomon had not considered that there might be NSFW pandas
Moukeddar nsfw pandas ? 13:32
that's new :
well , AFAIL pandas support the Right wing Political Machine 13:33
that's NSFW
AFAIK* 13:36
pmurias Moukeddar: isn't pasting youtube videos about pandas a bit of topic for #perl6?
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Moukeddar it's an example for Evil pandas 13:36
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Moukeddar is learning UML crucial ? 14:05
arnsholt Not necessarily, but learning how to best structure an application is, I'd argue 14:06
Learning UML can help with that 14:07
Moukeddar is it easy? 14:08
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masak to learn how to best structure an application? no. 14:11
it's like learning how to play Go. learn the basics in 15 minutes, and then it still takes a lifetime to master.
Moukeddar ah , ok :) 14:12
it's just nice to have a design reference instead of your own brain :)
masak a "design reference"? 14:13
Moukeddar yes classes design
i usually use a paper :)
to draw some primitive info 14:14
masak here's my journey so far: I didn't have much respect for design up front. I usually dove right in and then came back to design after I had at least a working prototype.
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masak lately I've been coming to appreciate that for big enough systems, you'll want to do some modeling before diving into the coding. 14:15
Moukeddar masak, i didn't gave it any respect either , but after reading and getting deeper , it looked like a crucial requirement now
tadzik wonders, whether it makes sense to treat Pod things like B<> identically as blocks 14:16
masak Moukeddar: I'm still a big believer of making a working prototype of things.
Moukeddar masak, i'm stiff confused :) 14:17
masak Moukeddar: and I don't believe there's one single Right Design that one will arrive at on the first attempt.
Moukeddar still lol
masak one nice thing about CQRS and read-side/write-side is that one can have several models working together in the same application. each model tailored to some purpose.
tadzik Formatting codes are themselves a type of block, and most of them may nest sequences of any other type of block (most often, other formatting codes). In particular, you can nest comment blocks in the middle of a formatting code 14:18
pretty much blocks, methinks
masak sounds like.
tadzik And so thinks Perl6::Pod 14:21
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tadzik updates gsocmess 14:24
masak Moukeddar: may I recommend a presentation to you?
Moukeddar yes , of course 14:25
masak www.infoq.com/presentations/model-to-work-evans 14:27
Moukeddar DDD :) 14:28
one other thing 14:33
what's agility ?
masak it's the idea that you should check back with the customer often to see if you're building what they want :) 14:34
there's more to it, but that seems to be the core message.
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masak see www.extremeprogramming.org/ for more. 14:34
Moukeddar for someone at my stage , it's an overkill 14:35
but never hurts to know :) 14:36
masak there are nice practices to borrow from agile, if you ask me.
the 'release early, release often' being perhaps the most important.
pmurias masak: the biggest obstacle to upfront design i encounter with a lot of stuff is that while implementing things i discover the data my program transform is vastly different then i imagined before 14:37
tadzik loliblug: ttjjss.wordpress.com/2011/05/01/gsoc/
masak pmurias: right. implementing contains discovery, beyond the things that were known during deisgn. 14:39
tadzik++ # bleg
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Moukeddar blag (blague) = joke in french 14:41
masak phenny: fr "blague"? 14:42
phenny masak: "joke" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
Moukeddar :) 14:43
masak phenny: "mon blog est une blague"?
phenny masak: "My blog is a joke" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
Moukeddar TTYL
masak o/
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masak will try to get a Yapsi release out the door today 14:51
tadzik any new funny stuff? 14:55
masak hopefully.
I'll try to get ENTER phasers in today.
tadzik don't forget about BACKSPACE
masak :P
niecza: say 42; ENTER { say "OH HAI" } 14:56
p6eval niecza v4-76-g7bf5ef9: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Action method statement_prefix:ENTER not yet implemented at /tmp/mRxPb3sLz1 line 1 (EOF):␤------> say 42; ENTER { say "OH HAI" }⏏<EOL>␤␤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method statement_level in class Str␤ at
masak pugs: say 42; ENTER { say "OH HAI" }
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤42␤»
masak oh, Pugs has it, of course :P
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tadzik I need a print of S26 14:56
masak blog post suggestion for some eager young soul: "things Pugs has that Rakudo doesn't".
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tadzik shame there's nothing that can parse it and format it nicely :)( 15:00
pmurias didn't Damian write a Pod parser? 15:01
masak he did.
and it outputs HTML, IIRC.
s/outputs/can output/
tadzik I tried Perl6::Pod, it ended almost fine 15:04
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masak proto sub gcd($x, $y) { $x.gcd($y); } 15:11
anyone mind if I make this one take a slurpy array of values?
and add a corresponding lcm proto?
arnsholt Sounds good to me 15:12
masak makes it so 15:14
just have to run the spectests for half an hour, make the change, then run them again :P
like a good citizen.
'course, I could just run t/spec/S32-num/gcd.t... 15:15
but no, there are other things depending on the gcd builtin, like jnthn++ pointed out.
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arnsholt There are always other things depending I'd say =) 15:18
jnthn Rat uses gcd, iirc. 15:20
masak I'm getting lots of "Dubious, test returned 1 (wstat 256, 0x100)" running the spectests.
moritz it does
masak I thought we fixed that.
also 15:21
moritz masak: which parrot version do you use?
masak t/spec/S02-builtin_data_types/subscripts_and_context.t ......... Failed 1/8 subtests
moritz: I'll check.
moritz ./perl6 -v
tells you
masak This is Rakudo Perl 6, version 2011.04-2-gecc4efa built on parrot 3.3.0 RELEASE_3_3_0-60-g97c32c7 15:22
moritz masak: I've also had lots of test failures with post-release parrots 15:23
masak also, in related bad news, Yapsi's t/runtime.t segfaults after test 26? :(
moritz: ok, I'll go back to the release one then.
moritz masak: so far my calls for confirming that have been unanswered. Thanks for testing that
masak don't mention it. :) 15:24
tadzik oh, I has an idea! 15:32
Test::Mock wraps methods and counts the number of executions
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masak which is way cool, by the way. 15:33
tadzik why not wrap methods to count the execution time using Benchmark module? We get a simple profiler
masak interesting. worth a shot.
tadzik investigates Test::Mock
masak another thing we could do... wrap methods to collect method dependency data. 15:34
moritz I guess it does nasty introspection, and then mixes in roles which shadow the original methods
masak in all fairness, this is what I would call the "proper" place for introspection. 15:35
moritz right 15:36
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masak correct. introspection here: github.com/jnthn/test-mock/blob/ma...ock.pm#L53 15:36
I must say that is some nice code. 15:37
jnthn Easier after nom will be to just subclass ClassHOW and override find_method or some such :)
Hmm, though that's only part of the story I guess.
tadzik jnthn: any ideas about supplying arguments to the .new method in Test::Mock? 15:38
masak overriding find_method. oh wow.
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jnthn tadzik: Maybe mocked($obj) should also have possibility to pass in a capture for new_args or something 15:41
mocked(Dog, with => \($number_of_tails)) or something 15:42
tadzik jnthn: I tried that, no success, although that was probably on the Holland Hackathon and looking at the code now I'm not sure what was on my mind :)
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tadzik oh wait, that was easy 15:43
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jnthn tadzik: Should just be change to line 46 and another to line 72 15:44
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tadzik jnthn: like this? nopaste.snit.ch/43066 15:49
jnthn :$newargs = \()
Well, guess the hash works too... 15:50
But maybe the empty capture is clearer.
tadzik :%newargs didn't help
jnthn Hm
tadzik and \() neither did
jnthn didn't help kinda tells me nothing 15:51
tadzik :)
well, the tests are still failing
jnthn In the case here you're passing something though 15:52
so the default wouldn't matter there
tadzik well, the standard tests still work
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tadzik in either case 15:52
jnthn oh 15:53
I guess it mocked the accessor for x too :)
tadzik :)
jnthn Bet if you change if $.x {
to if $!x { then it works... :)
(test 2 that is... 15:54
tadzik Method 'wrap' not found for invocant of class 'Sub'
that sounds wrongish
jnthn huh
How'd you get it to do that?
tadzik $m.wrap: { say "lol calling!"; callsame }; on line 61 15:55
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jnthn oh 15:56
yeah, I didn't use wrapping anywhere in the module :)
tadzik well, I'd need to :) 15:57
jnthn I don't see why.
tadzik I'll be wrapping this in timethis()
jnthn In fact, you'd be twiddling the original method
Which is really wrong.
tadzik hmm 15:58
masak g'ah!
jnthn I agree the wrap shoudln't fail but Test::Mock certainly should never touch the original method.
masak src/gc/gc_gms.c:2342: failed assertion 'Dead object found!'
seems I can't win with this Parrot thing.
jnthn masak: grrr. :/
tadzik well, now I'm just experimenting using the Test::Mock code
jnthn masak: Is that with latest?
masak that's the 3.3 release commit, far as I can tell.
jnthn :(
tadzik shit
masak latest was the one that gave me a segfault. 15:59
jnthn Quite possibly related.
Does building without generational GC help?
If so, it'll be a missing write barrier.
masak how do I do that?
tadzik pass --gc=ms2 to the parrot's Configure.pl 16:00
masak thanks.
tadzik afk
moritz should be the default for 3.3
jnthn --gc=(type) Which implementation of GC to use. One of ms, ms2 or gms
moritz: gengc was default for 3.3, or ms2? 16:01
tadzik ms2 was default
moritz right
jnthn ah
tadzik but Rakudo's using gms anyway
jnthn ok
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Moukeddar ello 16:02
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masak oh hai 16:03
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Moukeddar i'm watchin that presentation , that guy is a genius :) 16:04
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masak yes, he's very good. 16:08
moritz which presentation?
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Moukeddar the "Puting the model to work " 16:09
masak moritz: <masak> www.infoq.com/presentations/model-to-work-evans 16:17
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dalek p: 105839b | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Resolve issue #9 reported by masak++ that meant that use nqp; was not possible. Actually fixes the root issue which is that if you try to load a module that is the actual program that is running - even if it's in a compilation managed by that program.
tadzik $mocker.$m.wrap: sub (|$args) { callwith(|$args) }; -- that be just a wrapper doing nothing, not breaking argument passing, yes? 16:32
jnthn Yeah but you may as well have written callsame() if you're just going to pass the same arguments along. 16:33
tadzik rakudo: sub a($a, $b) { say "$a $b"; }; &a.wrap: sub (|$args) { say 'pfff!'; callwith($a, $b) }; a(5, 6)
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Symbol '$a' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/Dc8v4Pp0mA:22)␤»
tadzik jnthn: yeah, I was just trying callwith() because callsame wasn't working :) 16:34
rakudo: sub a($a, $b) { say "$a $b"; }; &a.wrap: sub (|$args) { say 'pfff!'; callwith($args) }; a(5, 6)
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«pfff!␤Null PMC access in type()␤ in 'a' at line 1:/tmp/0lnjzT52wJ␤ in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/0lnjzT52wJ␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
tadzik rakudo: sub a($a, $b) { say "$a $b"; }; &a.wrap: sub (|$args) { say 'pfff!'; callsame; }; a(5, 6)
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«pfff!␤5 6␤»
tadzik okay...
rakudo: class A { method B ($a, $b) { say "$a $b" } }; A.&B.wrap: sub... oh wait 16:35
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &B␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/Ro4mKmHjWn␤»
tadzik yeah, that should be method, not sub
shame that's not helping :| 16:36
jnthn closes various nqp tickets
tadzik rakudo: class A { method B ($a, $b) { say "$a $b" } }; A.&B.wrap: method (|$args) { say 'pff!'; callsame; }; A.new.B(4, 3); 16:39
p6eval rakudo 8533c3: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &B␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/nzoK5ZFof2␤»
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masak \o/ # issue 9 fixed. jnthn++ 17:17
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masak would anyone be so kind as trying to reproduce the GC write barrier error message in the Yapsi tests? 17:25
latest Parrot, latest Rakudo, latest Yapsi. t/runtime.t. after test 24.
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jnthn masak: Wait...did it also show up under gc=ms2? 17:28
If so, it's not a write barrier issue.
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dalek rixel: cb46e98 | diakopter++ | / (6 files):
[perlesque] some regex alternation codegen refactoring
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TimToady std: sub postfix:< > ($x) {...} 17:46
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $starter in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value $stopper in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value
TimToady I see std is still not updating regularly
moritz curious, there's a cronjob for it 17:47
std: sub postfix:< > ($x) {...} 17:48
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $starter in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value $stopper in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value
TimToady the change was to CursorBase.pmc, so maybe some dependency is borken 17:49
moritz that's the std that 'make snap' gives me
TimToady hmm, I was just doing make in the top dir
moritz ./viv -e complains
maybe some path mismatch?
TimToady /usr/local/share doesn't look right 17:50
seems to be picking up a version installed in the perl 5 dir
moritz that might be from the times where we installed STD from CPAN for niecza
diakopter listens 17:51
TimToady have to go whack the drums, will check back later &
moritz std: sub postfix:< > ($x) {...} 17:52
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $starter in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value $stopper in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value
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moritz std: sub postfix:< > ($x) {...} 17:53
diakopter heh
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $starter in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value $stopper in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.1/CursorBase.pm line 2754.␤Use of uninitialized value
17:53 p6eval left
moritz fixes perlbrew on p6eval host 17:56
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moritz std: 1 18:27
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Can't locate Moose.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/site_perl/5.12.2/x86_64-linux /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/site_perl/5.12.2 /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/5.12.2/x86_64-linux 18:28
moritz at least it picks up the right perl
and Moose is just one cpanm command (and many minutes of waiting) away 18:29
18:30 SHODAN joined 18:32 [Coke] left
masak jnthn: I'd better double-check. 18:33
18:33 [Coke] joined 18:37 ggoebel left, ggoebel joined 18:39 ggoebel left
masak fwiw, I don't like the method .gcd 18:39
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mathw what does it do? 18:41
what would you like it to do? 18:42
And can I have a pony?
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SHODAN greatest common divisor? 18:43
masak right.
I like the gcd(x,y) form, but I have no sympathy for x.gcd(y) 18:44
mathw ...
that's weird
I can understand (list of numbers).gcd
but not (single number).gcd
jasonmay github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master...tch.t#L167 18:45
^ is that best practice for handling a die in a CATCH?
moritz it sounds like gcd should be an infix (same precedence as infix % ?), and [gcd] would be the normal reduction 18:46
mathw good point
That's a much better idea
18:50 alester joined 18:51 mberends joined
mberends \o/ @alps == @rocks 18:51
alester ping pmichaud
masak jnthn: problem goes away with gc=ms2 18:52
sorear moritz: that's the way it obviously should be
tadzik mberends: well, what did you expect? Trees? :P 18:53
sorear Lava?
mberends oh yeah, @alps has @.trees 18:54
masak I think you're reading too much into mberends' statement. 18:57
all he said is that there are as many alps as there are rocks :P 18:58
jnthn mberends: Which bit of the alps? :)
mberends it would be difficult to count them for a proof, but indeed I was thinking what masak was thinking. 18:59
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diakopter std: . 18:59
p6eval std 9f27365: OUTPUT«Can't locate YAML/XS.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/site_perl/5.12.2/x86_64-linux /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/site_perl/5.12.2 /home/p6eval/perl5/perlbrew/perls/perl-5.12.2/lib/5.12.2/x86_64-linux
19:00 cotto joined
mberends jnthn: a Slovenian bit near Ljubljana, friends have a chalet here :) 19:01
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jnthn mberends: nice! :) 19:03
Nice views and Lasko! :) 19:04
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dalek p/ctmo: 4679b68 | jonathan++ | src/core/NQPMu.pm:
Fix a type-o. Detected by in-progress typename handling work.
p/ctmo: 556b715 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/ (2 files):
Resolve typename at compile time.
p/ctmo: 3564e72 | jonathan++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
Add parrot v-table overrides through the compile time meta-object.
p/ctmo: f993bf4 | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Attach multi signatures during normal fixup stage, not as special loadinits. Should cut startup time a little. Also resolves the multi-method regression introduced earlier in this branch.
masak yay for stricter type handling detecting type-os in the circularity circle! ;) 19:20
jnthn NQP has been able to detect many problems with itself. 19:22
masak it doesn't apply just to bootstrappisms.
.oO( oh noes...it's self-aware! )
moritz jnthn: are you aware of a failure in t/nqp/56-role.t 19:23
masak I generally try to structure things nowadays so that the program gives a shout if I do something unintended.
jnthn moritz: Very very much so.