»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
00:18 Woodi left, Woodi joined
sorear lichtkind: that last comment wasn't directed at you, sorry. 00:44
lichtkind: conclusions from rakudo sources - I don't remember
00:46 _jaldhar left, _jaldhar joined 01:01 noganex joined 01:03 Trashlord left 01:04 noganex_ left 01:21 buubot_backup left 01:30 _jaldhar left, _jaldhar joined 01:43 cdarroch left 01:47 am0c left 01:48 envi_laptop joined 02:00 am0c joined 02:03 _jaldhar left, Trashlord joined, _jaldhar joined 02:25 whiteknight left 02:47 xinming left 03:00 xinming joined 03:13 agentzh joined, envi_laptop left 03:21 Trashlord left, REPLeffect left 03:24 Su-Shee_ joined 03:27 Su-Shee left 03:28 thowe joined
thowe I need to thank TimToady. 03:28
He inadvertently set me on what feels like the path of enlightenment. 03:29
sorear he does that to people a lot
thowe this is probably more inadvertent than usual 03:30
sorear are you someone I should know/know of/remember?
thowe no, I'm very much nobody 03:31
A few months ago I stumbled in here and ended up talking about past experiences with perl and sort of moving to Ruby... 03:32
He asked me some questions about what bugged me in perl and later I decided to go back and take a better look at perl and I realized a lot of it was just me being ignorant. Now I have been doing perl again for months instead of Ruby and it's been fun. 03:33
sorear never figured out ruby 03:34
03:34 Tanktalus left
sorear well, it's pretty awesome that we have TimToady here at all :) 03:35
thowe I'm not positive I did either since I had to take a second look at perl years later to get it. Maybe I will do the same with Ruby (but I suspect it will be Perl6 instead).
03:35 Tanktalus joined
thowe But anyway, that conversation led me down a very different path than if I had never had it. I guess if one is paying attention they could say that about a lot of things, but that conversation sticks out in my mind. 03:37
03:37 lue left
thowe but he's not here. Maybe he'll scroll up. Thanks TimToady. 03:37
TimToady yer welcome! 03:42
and thanks for the encouragement 03:43
thowe =) 03:47
lichtkind good night 03:52
03:52 lichtkind left, am0c left
Tene sorear: I figured out ruby. Trust me, it's not really worth it. 03:58
sorear TimToady: I wonder to what extent, say, ::DYNAMIC makes sense as a name reference 04:10
04:10 y3llow left 04:11 y3llow joined 04:15 bkolera joined 04:16 _jaldhar is now known as jaldhar
sorear pugs: my $x = 4; { my $x = 2; say $OUTER::x } 04:31
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«4␤»
sorear pugs: my $x = 4; { my $x = 2; say $::x }
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«2␤»
sorear pugs: package Foo { { our $x = 2 }; say $::x } 04:32
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«2␤»
sorear pugs: { our $x = 2; }; package Foo { say $::x }
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Undeclared variable: ("$x",MkPad (padToList [("$_",PELexical {pe_type = (mkType "Scalar"), pe_proto = <Scalar:0x7f0040e59f31>, pe_flags = MkEntryFlags {ef_isContext = True}, pe_store = <ref:0x7f0040e588d1>}),("@_",PELexical {pe_type = (mkType "Array"), pe_proto = <Array:0x7f004…
sorear pugs: { package Bar { our $x = 2 } }; package Foo { say $Bar::x } 04:33
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
sorear pugs: { package Bar { our $x = 2 } }; package Foo { say $GLOBAL::Bar::x }
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
sorear pugs: { our package Bar { our $x = 2 } }; package Foo { say $GLOBAL::Bar::x }
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
sorear ?
TimToady: in the absense of a lexically visible declaration of Foo, does ::Foo::Bar mean OUR::Foo::Bar or GLOBAL::Foo::Bar? 04:34
04:40 xinming left
TimToady good question 04:47
meaning I'm not sure
it seems, pragmatically, that you wouldn't use ::Foo unless you expected the name to be defined later
it which case we might be able to defer its meaning till then
if not, OUR is shorter than GLOBAL, so I'd be inclined to make GLOBAL the default 04:48
or it could be argued that a postdeclaration will be OUR in any case, so might as well assume it 04:50
as is too often the case, I can argue it both ways
or we can say, it must be supplied eventually as some alias in the current lexical scope 04:51
but that doesn't make a lot of sense, because if you know it later in the scope, why can't you know it now?
similar considerations apply for OUR, so I guess GLOBAL is still the best default 04:53
on the assumpt that ::Foo will eventually be supplied at link time
(since our or my would imply we already know at compile time) 04:54
does that make sense to you?
slavik1 gobal aka extern?
global*
TimToady yeah, something like that 04:55
04:55 molaf joined
TimToady "I dunno what it means in the comp unit, but I will by link time" 04:55
04:56 kaare_ joined
TimToady I suppose one could also make a case for ::*Foo 04:57
but there's little a package can do that can't also be done with an ordinary var 04:58
05:14 thou joined 05:17 xinming joined 05:30 kaare_ left 05:31 muixirt joined
muixirt good morning 05:31
05:32 envi_laptop joined
sorear TimToady: GLOBAL:: is good, that's the behavior I have a use case for 05:34
TimToady: but it's a little inconsistant with the parts of S02 that say $::x ~~ $OUR::x (if no lexical $x and no strict)
05:53 mdrc joined
sorear TimToady? 05:54
mdrc hello, in something like pastebin.com/rgZbke43 , how's anonymous array notation in perl6?
sorear anononymous array syntax hasn't been changed at all 05:56
but almost everything else in that snippet has
mdrc fine. thanks
05:56 fhelmberger_ joined
mdrc like the hash brackets? 05:57
sorear yes
mdrc ok
sorear and the array brackets, and method calls, and iterating over array elements, and sub parameters, and here documents 05:58
and named parameters
mdrc just scanned the doc quickly, rather nice
sorear :) 05:59
mdrc seems you qualify for a new type of console
with special perl keys 06:00
sorear "special
"special" perl keys?
mdrc like an ascii replacement
sorear but I need ASCII
mdrc the iterator char etc
sorear all the characters I use in my Perl are ASCII 06:01
Iterator char?
mdrc i can't type it here
something like >>
sorear ...are you a troll 06:02
mdrc im anti
sorear perl6: say [1,4,9]>>.sqrt
p6eval pugs, rakudo 248244, niecza v6-177-g365e216: OUTPUT«123␤»
sorear non-ASCII? what? 06:03
mdrc so the ascii equivalent works too, that's just fine
sorear trolls seem to think you need special Perl 6 keyboards 06:04
06:04 wamba joined
mdrc trolls think everyone else is a troll 06:04
sorear so why did you bring up keyboards? 06:06
mdrc because the type-system is alpha and omega
and perl6 use a new set of glyphs 06:07
sorear what are you even talking about?
mdrc about perl6 representation
06:07 molaf left
sorear you must be confusing this with some other Perl 6 06:07
the Perl 6 I know has no special glyphs, or alphas or omegas, or Tk module, or anything like that 06:08
mdrc good luck for you it's ascii compatible
sorear hugs mdrc
mdrc :)
thanks
then we get to talk a bit, might sort it out 06:17
what i got already
mberends mdrc: were you referring to non-ascii characters in the syntax of p6 such as « »? Each one has an ascii equivalent for unicode-challenged systems. 06:18
mdrc only here to show my respect, actually. . . else i'd left
just woke up and about to leave 06:19
sorear o/ mberends
mberends oahy, sorear
ahoy
finger sort error
sorear mdrc: Are you trying to answer my PMs?
mdrc oh, didn't see you were private, sry 06:20
fault of the whisper 06:21
sorear mberends: user defined precedence finally works :> trying now to get an inconsistency in the spec explained by TimToady
TiMBuS github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee/commit...8beb84f2ac 06:26
uh
sorear it's great publicity. I'd never heard of bumblebee before today, 06:27
slavik1 does rakudo* releases include parrot?
sorear Still can't figure out what it's supposed to do, though.
slavik1: yes
slavik1 sorear: does install in a self contained dir or does it have an install make target? 06:28
sorear no clue 06:35
slavik1 kk 06:36
another stupid question, will perl5 code work in rakudo* with use v5? or is that still on the "to be implemented" list? 06:37
TiMBuS now how you want it to
not* how 06:38
slavik1 I see, ok
and I presume there is a way to compile perl to pbc?
TiMBuS you can import modules and eval perl5 code
slavik1 k 06:39
TiMBuS perl5 to pbc? no. that idea was abandoned
slavik1 perl6 to pbc :)
TiMBuS ah. yeah
slavik1 kk
TiMBuS github.com/jnthn/blizkost here might be what you want
slavik1 I remember that one ^^ 06:40
mberends sorear: I saw the precedence discussion, and thought any kind of numerical precedence ordering is limited. I thought if you define precedence levels only relative to other entries, you can extend a single/double linked list of precedence levels without limits.
TiMBuS the zavolaj readme says that it only works with known nci_thunk s but is that still the case? parrot uses libffi now 06:44
06:45 sivoais joined
pmichaud earlier versions of rakudo (and PGE) handled precedence levels by successive string extentions 06:46
*extensions
06:46 daniel-s joined
pmichaud that's why the :prec<...> items are all 'x=' and the like 06:47
mdrc like a regular LR1 parser, i suppose
mberends TiMBuS: yes, because zavolaj has not (yet) been reworked to make use of parrot#s new libffi. I have not yet looked into how much work is involved, and it seems wrong to prioritize that currently, whilst such a lot is happening in rakudo/nom. 06:48
TiMBuS mberends, no need to rush or anything, im just not sure how the new libffi worked. assumed it was mostly transparent like the old nci was 06:49
mberends TiMBuS: aye, libffi may be something similar to nci, only smarter :) 06:51
TiMBuS well, yeah, but what i mean is i thought it might have just been switched out and replaced, and unchanged pir code would now work with the new ffi 06:54
sorear pmichaud: what was changed?
pmichaud sorear: nothing changed... just haven't (re-)implemented that capability since then 06:55
sorear ooh?
pmichaud anyway, tighter precedence would be indicated by adding '>' before the '=', looser precedence by adding '<' before the '='
sorear alpha: sub infix:<@>($x,$y) is equiv<*> { $x * $y }; say 1 + 2 @ 3
p6eval alpha : OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'trait_mod:is'␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
pmichaud then it's a straight string comparison to compare the precedence of two operators
sorear yes, that's exactly what niecza does 06:56
$sub.prec_info.<prec> ~~ s/\=/<=/ if $trait eq 'looser'
pmichaud: if I read the spec correctly, ::Foo::Bar defaults to GLOBAL, but $::x defaults to OUR. What do you think? 06:58
pmichaud seems like it might be inconsistent, but I'd have to study it closer to form a good opinion on it.
sorear (I need to learn to not be paralyzed when I notice a little hole in my understanding of the spec...) 06:59
pmichaud since we've never really worked on getting packages exactly right until 'nom', I haven't looked at all of the intricacies of the spec in that respect
slavik1 pastebin.com/EAgDWxbt
what am I doing wrong?
pmichaud I don't think Rakudo knows how to use Parrot-native .pbc libraries 07:00
slavik1 they are all .pir though 07:01
and came with rakudo*
via make install
pmichaud well, Parrot installs a lot of things that Rakudo might not be able to use.
Rakudo * gives a full Parrot install, not just Rakudo-only stuff.
slavik1 I see
but it should be able to use .pir libs, no? it worked before ... at some point
mdrc perl6 continues with the fork emulation, right? 07:02
pmichaud I know it can use .pir libs that it compiles, yes.
sorear -> sleep
TiMBuS mdrc, no perl6 is trying to build in Coro instead 07:03
mdrc in Coro?
pmichaud slavik1: that said, Data::Dumper is usually already loaded by default when rakudo loads, so you may just be able to call the 'dumper' function directly.
rakudo: dumper([1, 2, 3]);
TiMBuS Coro is a perl 5 module that allows async {} blocks
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &dumper␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/QWFjhRRBvf␤»
slavik1 :P
Dumper?
pmichaud oh, I guess not. :-(
mdrc hmm 07:04
slavik1 rakudo: say Dumper "hello";
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &Dumper␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/d_JpaF3vyh␤»
pmichaud rakudo: Data::Dumper::dumper([1, 2, 3]);
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«Cannot find sub Data::Dumper::dumper␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
pmichaud rakudo: _dumper([1,2,3]);
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &_dumper␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/xQr6J1JfQQ␤»
slavik1 rakudo: say new Data::Dumper("hello");
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of C++ constructor syntax; in Perl 6 please use method call syntax at line 22, near "(\"hello\");"␤»
slavik1 lol
pmichaud looks like there's not a way to quite do it. (more) 07:05
slavik1 rakudo: say Data::Dumper::new("hello");
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«Cannot find sub Data::Dumper::new␤ in main program body at line 1␤»
slavik1 D:
pmichaud even if there was, it's doubtful that Parrot's Data::Dumper participates properly in the symbol table importation. It was written before Parrot's standards for export/import were in place.
slavik1 pmichaud: idea was to load a module :)
TiMBuS mdrc, the current threading synopsis sucks, but from what I gather it looks very similar to Coro. No idea if it will be scrapped or used or whatever. I know that I don't like perl 5 threads though.
mdrc TiMBuS: just apropos libray export and shared code bases 07:06
(i din't use threads in the microsoft sense) 07:07
dalek kudo/nom: a92bda7 | pmichaud++ | src/core/Mu.pm:
Refactor PMCNULL handling in &DUMP.
 07:13
kudo/nom: 5ef97ff | pmichaud++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Merge branch 'nom' of github.com:rakudo/rakudo into nom
kudo/nom: 65bec51 | pmichaud++ | / (5 files):
Add the first bit of gather/take functionality.

It doesn't quite work yet, because Actions.pm doesn't yet know how to properly compile <blorst> blocks -- it gives a "no clone method found for 'Sub'" error. As soon as that's fixed, gather/take should work fine. In the meantime, one can do GATHER({...}) to get roughly equivalent functionality.
07:28 thou left 07:34 fhelmberger_ left 07:39 mdrc left 07:43 Su-Shee_ is now known as Su-Shee
dalek kudo/nom: 74ecbe0 | pmichaud++ | src/core/ (2 files):
s/BIND_KEY/STORE_AT_KEY/ for consistency with List/Array.
 07:44
kudo/nom: 434bab6 | pmichaud++ | / (4 files):
Add Enum, Pair, .pairs method, and enum/hash flattening.
07:52 Trashlord joined 07:55 mj41 joined 08:23 wamba left 08:42 amkrankruleuen left, amkrankruleuen joined 08:58 nymacro joined 09:18 spq left 09:19 spq1 joined 09:21 pochi left
mberends fresh rakudo/nom loops forever in t/01-sanity/12-try.t, the virtual memory size seen by top oscillating between 159m and 175m 09:29
TBA2 perl6: class A { method X { return B.new(); } } class B is A {}; my $a = A.new(); my $b = $a.B(); print $b; 09:36
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class A: "&B"␤ at /tmp/7HSQNuudES line 1, column 79-90␤»
..niecza v6-177-g365e216: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Any()Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/INTils3O_6 line 1:␤------> class A { method X { return B.new(); } }⏏ class B is A {}; my $a = A.new(); my $b␤␤Undeclared name:␤
..'B' used at line 1␤␤P…
..rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "class A { "␤»
TBA2 should that work?
i.e. creating an instance of a parent class from a subclass?
rakudo: class A { method X { return B.new(); } } class B is A {}; my $a = A.new(); my $b = $a.B(); print $b; 09:37
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "class A { "␤»
moritz TBA2: you need a semicolon or newline after the closing } of the class
TBA2 rakudo: class A { method X { return B.new(); } }; class B is A {}; my $a = A.new(); my $b = $a.X(); print $b; 09:38
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &B␤ in 'A::X' at line 22:/tmp/or3Vo8OipM␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/or3Vo8OipM␤»
TBA2 moritz: ty, you helped me spot another typo, but still errors?
perl6: class A { method X { return B.new(); } }; class B is A {}; my $a = A.new(); my $b = $a.X(); print $b; 09:39
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &B␤ in 'A::X' at line 22:/tmp/w_TJ322F4N␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/w_TJ322F4N␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&B"␤ at /tmp/jCAJkOHnSy line 1, column 29-36␤»
..niecza v6-177-g365e216: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Illegally post-declared type:␤ 'B' used at line 1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 469 (CORE die @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1133 (STD P6.comp_unit @ 30) ␤
moritz rakudo: class A { method X { return ::B.new(); } }; class B is A {}; my $a = A.new(); my $b = $a.X(); print $b;
p6eval ..at /home/p6eval/ni…
rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«B()<0x3e89780>»
moritz there you go
TBA2 my local rakudo gives: Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'A'
ah!!! i see, ty!
moritz you can't use a type name before you declare it
TBA2 so how does using :: change that? presumably thats global namespace?
moritz so either you must stub it with 'class B { ... };'
or you need to use ::B, which says "B is a type name which I'll declare later" 09:40
TBA2 ahh thats it, thank you!!
however, I still get 'Illegal redeclaration of symbol 'A'' in rakudo, that a bug?
moritz TBA2: how old is your rakudo?
TBA2 was just thinking that when i seen you used rakudo just then lol :) 09:41
TBA2 updates his rakudo
moritz rakudo: class B { ... }; class A { method x { B.new } }; class B is A { }; say A.x
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«B()<0x45ab100>␤»
moritz nom: class B { ... }; class A { method x { B.new } }; class B is A { }; say A.x
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«B<69377880>␤»
TBA2 j/w, which branch is the rakudo compiler in here on? 09:42
tadzik 'rakudo' is on master 09:43
'nom' is nom
moritz right
tadzik nom: say "nom!"
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«nom!␤»
TBA2 cool thx
moritz nom: say "nom!" x 5 09:44
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &infix:<x>␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 83 ((file unknown):61956725) (:1)␤»
moritz ooh, LHF
flussence nom: sub infix:<x>($thing, Int $count) { $thing for ^$count }; say "nom!" x 5 09:47
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in find_method('new')␤current instr.: 'nqp;Perl6;Actions;_block1794' pc 29113 (src/gen/perl6-actions.pir:9731)␤»
flussence worked for me in master :( 09:48
TBA2 how weird lol
moritz flussence: x is string repetition
TBA2 just tried to build master and get this:
Null PMC access in find_method('new')
moritz flussence: xx is list repetition
TBA2: did you re-run Configure.pl?
(you should)
TBA2 pours water over head to wake up properly 09:49
flussence sub infix:<x>($thing, Int $count) { (callsame).join } # ;)
TBA2 moritz: thx again, perhaps i should leave programming to a more conscious state :D
moritz TBA2: btw did you try the class B is A thing in the REPL?
ie in the interactive mode?
TBA2 yeah thats where i was trying
moritz if yes, previous declarations of A could lead to the redeclaration error 09:50
TBA2 well, after failing miserably to get actual code to work
was a new instance, keep accidentally ctrl+c'ing it lol
09:51 araujo left
flussence rakudo: class A::B::C {}; class A::B {}; # is this meant to happen? 09:51
p6eval rakudo 248244: ( no output )
flussence hm, that's different
tadzik rakudo: class A::B::C {}; class A::B {}; say 'alive'
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«alive␤»
tadzik but you get illegal redeclaration, don't you? 09:52
flussence on the repl if I do them on separate lines, they don't work...
09:58 donri left 10:05 agentzh left 10:06 Woodi left
TBA2 ok two questions from my sleepy morning brain: 10:06
how do i declare an attribute static (i.e. p6 equivalent of c#s "static int x;") 10:07
and which constructor should(can?) i use to fill that static attribute as soon as the class is imported with a use statement?
moritz my $.x (but doesn't work yet in rakudo; as a workaround you can just use 'my $x' in the class body)
10:08 Woodi joined
moritz rakudo: class A { my $x = 5; method xx { say $x } }; A.xx 10:08
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«5␤»
moritz rakudo: class A { my $x = 5; method xx { say $x } }; A.xx; A.new.xx
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«5␤5␤»
TBA2 moritz: thanks, exactly what i needed :)
10:10 mj41 left
moritz nqp: say(pir::repeat__SSI("foo", 0)) 10:13
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«␤»
10:13 wamba joined
moritz nqp: say(pir::repeat__SSI("foo", -1)) 10:13
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Cannot repeat with negative arg␤current instr.: '_block1000' pc 0 ((file unknown):1)␤»
dalek kudo/nom: e123266 | moritz++ | src/core/Str.pm:
implement infix:<x>
 10:15
10:18 Chillance joined 10:30 Chillance left
TBA2 in this example: class A { method X { return ::B.new(); } }; class B is A {}; my $a = A.new(); my $b = $a.X(); print $b; 10:31
say class A and B were in separate .pm files, do I need to 'use' the parent/subclassses? 10:32
it works fine if i stick it all in REPL but once i split it into separate files I get various errors depending on what I actually do
example: pastebin.com/1UymDH95 10:35
10:38 eternaleye left 10:39 eternaleye joined 10:44 Chillance joined 10:45 am0c joined 10:57 JimmyZ joined
JimmyZ good evening, #perl6 11:00
11:08 woosley joined 11:10 dalek left 11:11 dalek joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v dalek, p6eval left 11:15 dalek left 11:16 dalek joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v dalek 11:20 p6eval joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v p6eval 11:25 Woodi left, mberends left, Woodi joined 11:27 nymacro left
muixirt nqp: $a := 0; $a++; 11:28
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Symbol '$a' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:107)␤»
muixirt nqp: my $a := 0; $a++;
p6eval nqp: ( no output )
muixirt rakudo: my $a := 0; $a++;
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«Cannot modify readonly value␤ in '&infix:<=>' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 1:CORE.setting␤»
11:29 am0c left
JimmyZ nom: my $a := 0; $a++; 11:29
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Cannot assign to a non-container␤current instr.: 'infix:<=>' pc 145745 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:36711) (:1210)␤»
muixirt are there more cases where rakudo can't run nqp programs? 11:30
JimmyZ well, nqp is Not Quite Perl 6 11:31
that is, it's a subset of Perl 6 11:32
muixirt JimmyZ: and it isn't really a subset of Perl 6 either ... semantically
JimmyZ yes, that's why it is called Not Quite Perl 6 11:33
11:49 Eevee left 11:50 Eevee joined 11:59 Shozan joined 12:02 woosley left
muixirt moritz: wrt your last commit, nom will still heavily depend on pir? 12:02
12:03 Woodi left 12:05 Woodi joined, mberends joined 12:08 orafu left
mberends muixirt: nom will use pir:: but not Q:PIR any more, and the long term plan is to rewrite the pir:: as nqp:: or vm:: to be more portable 12:12
12:13 orafu joined
muixirt mberends: thanks for answering, will wait for pmichaud's next blog post 12:18
mberends :)
12:21 ggoebel left 12:25 ggoebel joined
moritz muixirt: well, we have to implement stuff by using the operations that our VM provides. Currently that still means PIR 12:29
muixirt moritz: ok (sorry for dumb questions :-) 12:30
moritz: is there a list of primitives that nqp/nom rely on? 12:38
tadzik `ack pir::` :) 12:39
muixirt tadzik: well ... :-)
tadzik what's on your mind? 12:40
muixirt these primitives would be the real bytecode, an api that VM devs could provide to run Rakudo on different platforms 12:43
of course i don't know how src/pmc and src/6model would fit into that :-( 12:44
12:44 lateau joined
tadzik I think it will all eventually go down to porting nqp somehow 12:46
12:52 buubot_backup joined
moritz muixirt: these primitives are compiled down to "real bytecode", but currently there's a step inbetween (PIR) 12:53
12:53 nsh left 12:55 Guest18398 joined, kcwu left 12:56 MayDaniel joined 12:57 kcwu joined 12:59 icwiener joined 13:11 lichtkind joined
pmichaud good morning 13:21
colomon o/ 13:23
tadzik good am, pm 13:24
haha, I stole moritz' greeting :P
13:27 mj41 joined
moritz PLAGIARISM! 13:28
colomon heh. I've been reading a swashbuckling classic for the first time, only to discover a really crappy book I read last year stole every single plot development of the first seven chapters of the classic. 13:29
pmichaud "The parts of this book that are original are not good, and the parts that are good are not original." :-) 13:30
colomon Apparently the author decided to "update" the classic by adding magic, doubling the length of the prose, and removing every shred of likability from the characters.
tadzik it's like with translations 13:31
moritz has read some very good translations
colomon too... including a lot of great swashbucklers. 13:32
13:33 Mowah joined
tadzik swashbucklers as in pirates? 13:34
colomon errr... of course, I assume the translation was good because I liked the final result. I have neither enough French or Spanish to handle Dumas or Perez-Reverte. 13:37
tadzik: mostly musketeers and the like, but pirates are good too. 13:38
I can't always be reading Winnie-the-Pooh and Thomas the Tank Engine. ;)
moritz read some of the Harry Potter novels in English, and some in the German translation. The translations were good enough that I don't remember which I read in which language :-)
tadzik when they were translating Harry Potters to Polish, there were contests on the intertnet for the best translation of a particular name or word 13:41
moritz heh :-) 13:42
pmichaud hopes NPW is proceeding well.
tadzik oh, right, the guys are absent 13:43
13:54 lateau left
TBA2 can anyone point me to where in rakudo master i can find where it deals with 'use' statements 14:00
moritz TBA2: src/Perl6/Actions.pm, search for sym<use>
TBA2 moritz: thx :) 14:01
moritz I've occasionally tried to fiddle with it :-)
14:02 mj41 left
TBA2 is gonna regret this 14:03
it seems use statements are carried out even if the package has been previously imported, soo, trying to find out why :/
this can be my intro to the rakudo source haha :s
moritz TBA2: because 'use' imports symbols into the current scope 14:04
TBA2 what about when all use imports are in the global namespace?
moritz Perl 6 doesn't do imports into a global namespace (except type names maybe)
but into lexical scopes
14:05 MayDaniel left
TBA2 i.e. if A.pm imports B.pm and B.pm imports A.pm, when both are loaded I get some kind of maximum recursion depth 14:05
moritz it's a situation you should avoid for now
consider putting both into the same file 14:06
TBA2 will do, but is that a fault of rakudo or perl 6 specs?
moritz probably rakudo, not sure though
TBA2 will attempt to investigate lol, never had a problem with p5 and i assume its something people would need to do 14:07
moritz aye
14:12 Moukeddar joined
Moukeddar Hello :) 14:12
14:13 kaare_ joined 14:16 betterworld left
pmichaud > my %h = <a b c d e f g h>; say %h.kv.perl; 14:21
(('a', 'b'), ('c', 'd'), ('e', 'f'), ('g', 'h'))
\o/
14:21 betterworld joined
moritz \o/ 14:22
TimToady that seems problematic to bind to -> $k, $v 14:23
pmichaud it flattens in flat context
TimToady I guess for is flat, yeah
still waiting for the coffee to finish...
pmichaud np :-)
I think nom finally gets Parcel handling pretty close to right. 14:24
Moukeddar moritz, o/
TimToady \o/ too
Moukeddar that google presentation on Good API design was very helpful and inspiring :) 14:25
can someone please explain to me what's exactly Scalability ?
dalek kudo/nom: 741ed7b | pmichaud++ | / (6 files):
Switch ListIter to be an Iterator, ListIter :flat affects only Parcel flattening. Add a preliminary List.perl.
 14:28
kudo/nom: 4d4bfa6 | pmichaud++ | src/core/EnumMap.pm:
Add EnumMap .keys, .kv, .values.
pmichaud niecza: my %h = <a b c d e f>; say %h.perl
p6eval niecza v6-177-g365e216: OUTPUT«{"a" => "b", "c" => "d", "e" => "f"}.hash␤»
moritz Moukeddar: able to handle large sets of data, or be able to run distributed over many machines
14:29 mcallan joined
Moukeddar so that's the core principe of Cloud infrastructure 14:29
thank you
sorear I'll have to see how pm implemented List.perl 14:30
good * #perl6
pmichaud sorear: it's the naive one for now
more as a diagnostic tool than "this is the way output should look" 14:31
sorear pmichaud: I'm just wondering how you got the subparcels to show up
pmichaud: at List.pm line 100, what's the difference between pir::XXX and pir__XXX?
pmichaud Didn't do anything special for that -- the resulting list is a list of parcels 14:32
pir::XXX is an opcode. pir__XXX is a function that maybe someday will be an opcode :-)
14:32 betterworld left
pmichaud (at which point we change the first __ to :: 14:32
sorear in nieczaland, .map flattens its invocant 14:33
pmichaud you're probably looking for Parcel.pm:41
sorear because %hash.kv.map({$^b => $^a})
pmichaud I'm pretty sure .map shouldn't flatten by default. 14:34
TimToady yes it should
it should be identical to for
pmichaud I had already treated for as being
TimToady and you can say %hash.kv.lol.map
pmichaud for @list { ... } <--> flat(@list).map({ ... })
14:35 daniel-s left
pmichaud and I would expect %hash.kv.map( { $_.value => $_.key } ) for what sorear++ wrote 14:36
oh, that's not right
hmmm
anyway, I can switch map to flattening behavior. I'd expect some roast tests to fail, though. 14:37
TimToady I think there is a set of ops that the (p5) user will always expect to flatten, and that's why we have lol to do the other thing 14:38
sorear why do nom lists have only a single $!nextiter?
dalek ok: f1f9cbe | (Frederik Schwarzer)++ | src/operators.pod:
Remove execution bit from file.
ok: 1eb0908 | (Przemysław Wesołek)++ | src/operators.pod:
Merge pull request #56 from icwiener/master

Remove execution bit from file.
pmichaud they only need one? ;-)
TimToady: yes, my version of .map comes from before the spec of .lol
TimToady well, we need some lolcode then :P 14:39
sorear Is there a difference between ((1,2), (3,4).list.lol and ($(1,2), $(3,4).list.lol?
TimToady Syntax error near line 1 14:40
pmichaud yes, irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-09-17#i_2837842 is the part I missed. :-)
sorear s:g/'.list'/)$/ /
14:40 mcallan left
pmichaud good, this will make things a bit more efficient, too. 14:41
TimToady usually when I redecide things like that I decide wrong, until someone points out when I said the other thing :) 14:42
esp this time of the AM
sorear: as far as I can tell, those come out the same
a Parcel of 2 Seqs sez Sleepybrane 14:43
pmichaud something tells me they're not quite exactly the same, but I'm not sure about that yet. I'll know more when I implement LoL soon :) 14:44
TimToady .list is close to a no-op on a parcel
pmichaud yes, that's what it looks like in nom.
Basically .list on a Parcel just constructs an already-reified list of the Parcel's elements 14:45
TimToady do you mean it's not lazy?
pmichaud it doesn't flatten
it just changes type
i.e., (1, 2).WHAT will be Parcel, while (1, 2).list.WHAT will be List
sorear unless one or more of the parcel's elements is an Iterator, no?
pmichaud sorear: yeah, that could be 14:46
or an Iterable
TimToady why I asked about lazy
pmichaud nom gets it right, even if nom's implementor doesn't :) 14:47
TimToady I'm starting to wonder if ::Foo::bar should really mean ::("Foo::bar") and then just search both lex and global at run time 14:49
in which case, maybe we should just outlaw it and force people to write the latter 14:50
or maybe it means START { ::("Foo::BAR") } 14:51
*bar
14:51 mcallan joined
TimToady or INIT, or something not compile-timey 14:51
maybe it's polymorphic somehow
14:52 mcallan left
TimToady but S12:95 already talks about virtual class names without a leading :: 14:53
sorear I think what I'll do for now is make ::($x) pick GLOBAL or OUR depending on the presense of a sigil in $x 14:56
TimToady non-sigil should probably scan lex and failover to GLOBAL 14:57
sorear yes
14:58 betterworld joined
sorear ideally at compile time 14:58
TimToady of $x is a constant, sure :)
TimToady now thinks of strings that are constant in the first N chars only... 14:59
perhaps one could get such from a Cat
constant $prefix = "Foo::Bar::"; my $x = cat($prefix, '$that'); # Optimize me! 15:01
er
'<$that>' I guess
15:01 Moukeddar left
TimToady I suppose memoizing each step of the name lookups would have a similar effect 15:02
albeit with a small run-time overhead each time to figure out we've already seen Foo::Bar
15:03 betterworld left 15:06 mj41 joined
sorear if you're just doing leading prefixes, it's easy to tell the compiler that 15:07
Foo::Bar::('$that')
TimToady as opposed to trailing prefixes? :P
sorear when they trail they're not namespaces, but rather a MTA 15:08
TimToady if I got paralyzed by holes in the spec, why, I'd just be paralyzed all the time...wait, how is that different from reality?
so maybe there's really little use case for leading :: 15:09
and perhaps trying to force it in there is a form of confusing hard ref with symbolic ref, so we shouldn't 15:11
moritz I must have missed part of the dicussion... how would you reference types that haven't been declared yet? 15:12
TimToady if you're going to declare them yourself, you should probably have a stub instead
15:12 mj41 left
TimToady the part you missed is that it's not clear where to look for Foo if you see ::Foo::bar 15:13
JimmyZ wonders how is A B C and U D disscusion 15:14
15:14 betterworld joined
TimToady is still thinking about that 15:14
JimmyZ thinks B is default 15:15
actually I like U D just because my english is poor, undefined && define is easy to me 15:16
moritz what would A B C mean?
sorear TimToady: niecza uses stuff like ::Op::CallMethod all over the place, to delay references to link time and reduce the amount of recompiling I have to do
TimToady thinks A is okay, but maybe D for Data and F for Failure 15:17
Failure is concrete but you still want to filter them out of sigs
JimmyZ B means Both, which I guess is default
moritz Abstract, Both, Concrete?
TimToady I'm saying Both is *wrong*, because it's not either-or
we've got Maybes and Errors and Just 15:18
in H-Think
moritz I'm just asking what people where thinging when proposing A B C
TimToady yes
sorear moritz: Abstract, Concrete
pmichaud moritz: :U and :D mnemonically mean "undefined" and "defined"
which isn't exactly what nom is doing at the moment
moritz right, they don't map to .defined 15:19
sorear and we're proposing to change the name instead of the semantics
moritz but rather to $thing === $thing.WHAT
pmichaud so, it was felt that :A and :C might be more mnemonically accurate
I don't mind if we keep :U and :D with the undefined/defined meanings as well, though.
TimToady and what do you do with a Failure?
pmichaud then :A could be "abstract, fast" 15:20
TimToady I don't see a use case for :C really
pmichaud and :U could be "undefined, might be slow because it has to check .defined"
and I don't mind if there is no :C :-)
TimToady not a type object doesn't say much
pmichaud basically we just want something that means "everything but :A"
TimToady one could argue that you don't want Failure binding to either :A or :D by default 15:21
(if :D meatns Data)
pmichaud right, so :U could perhaps pick up the Failure case
TimToady and I still really like that :D is a happy face 15:22
"happy data"
pmichaud I'm happy enough if we keep :D
mainly :U is the one that bugs me 15:23
JimmyZ D F ?
pmichaud (as it currently maps in nom)
TimToady F seems redundant with Failure $f
moritz maybe we could have :D (both defined and concrete), :A (abstract), and :F (not defined but concrete)
TimToady don't need to add :X for types that exist
moritz though... exactly
pmichaud :A - abstract 15:24
moritz wonders if Failure ~~ Any
pmichaud :U - undefined
TimToady considered :T for type objects, but there's destructive interference with ::T
15:24 ymasory joined
pmichaud and something that means !undefined 15:24
rakudo: say Failure ~~ Any # first guess 15:25
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
pmichaud of course, if Failure !~ Any, then for most default arguments it wouldn't bind anyway
moritz that's exactly what I'm thinking right now 15:26
TimToady now wonders whether our low-level last-ditch human-readable stringifyer is also outside of Any and is called Success 15:27
that's probably a sixth of six impossible things 15:28
pmichaud > my %h = <a b c d e f g h>; say %h.kv.perl 15:29
(('a', 'b'), ('c', 'd'), ('e', 'f'), ('g', 'h'))
> say %h.kv.map({; $^b => $^a }).perl
('b' => 'a', 'd' => 'c', 'f' => 'e', 'h' => 'g')
\o/
TimToady why do you need the ;? 15:30
pmichaud maybe don't need it
TimToady the parameters should make it a closure
I think...
dalek kudo/nom: a02622b | pmichaud++ | src/core/ (2 files):
Add &infix:«=>» and Enum.perl.
kudo/nom: fac5bdf | pmichaud++ | src/core/ (2 files):
.map now automatically flattens its invocant.
TimToady or was that just $_?
pmichaud I put the ';' in out of habit for pair constructor closures :) 15:31
anyway, nom seems to have trouble with a bare Pair constructor in the closure at the moment (but it doesn't think it's a hash constructor) 15:32
we still have some things to fix up in block handling in nom
TimToady yes, S04:1564 sez placeholders also force closure 15:35
pmichaud okay 15:36
jnthn: ^^^^^^
15:36 Mowah_ left
TimToady basically, you can only parameterize a hash composer with closed-over lexical vars 15:36
sorear I thought Failure was ~~ $everything
subset Zot of Int where False; my Zot $x = function_that_fails; 15:37
TimToady yes, we've also be considering it a form of 'bottom' 15:38
*been
so maybe Mu is "top" and "success" and our final string forcer is Mu($x) :) 15:39
dalek kudo/nom: 03b9dd9 | pmichaud++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
<for> no longer needs explicit &flat, .map handles it automatically for us.
 15:41
15:46 Eevee left, thowe left 15:47 Eevee joined 15:52 Mowah_ joined
TimToady I do think we need to take the human-format string forcing away from Str so that Str can be Stringy's bridge type 16:03
pmichaud wfm
moritz +1 16:04
TimToady and probably apply it to each of say's args without flattening 16:05
sorear +2
TimToady further differentiating say from print
note should probably do the same 16:06
pmichaud say's signature would no longer be sub say(*@args) { ... } then?
TimToady correct
pmichaud okay.
I wonder if we should keep say as being print + "\n" and introduce another huffmanized human-oriented output. 16:07
TimToady probably needs to process the parcel directly, and force each arg with whatever we end up calling the stringer
pmichaud maybe "speak" :-P 16:08
"show" 16:09
16:10 ajoe47 joined
pmichaud (might look a little too much like "s"+"how" there) 16:10
TimToady I don't think we need any hybrid between print and say 16:11
it would just confuse people more
pmichaud no, I'm saying that 'say' is the hybrid between print and something else
TimToady no, I want say for the dwimmy one 16:12
pmichaud okay
TimToady it's the proper huffman coding
pmichaud well, that's why I was saying a short thingy
16:12 Eevee left
TimToady I would probably never use a print + "\n" 16:12
pmichaud I worry that having say be more dwimmy than + "\n" will mess up p5 programmers that are getting used to 'say' with that meaning 16:13
TimToady well, it wouldn't be the first thing :)
16:13 Eevee joined
TimToady ref/deref is just not going to be consisten from p5 to p6 16:14
*tent
pmichaud not to mention ~~ :-P
TimToady I just notice that we're have a lot of extra ~ in rosettacode because say defaults the other way 16:15
*having
pmichaud that's a good argument in favor of what you're (ahem) saying then :)
TimToady also some credit to sorear++ for pushing the notion from time to time 16:16
still don't know what to call the dwimstringer though... 16:17
don't completely like any of the suggestions so far
JimmyZ would like to see say defaults say ~ 16:18
TimToady well, it just does it to each arg, not to the args as a whole, I think
pmichaud does print do the same thing? or is print suddenly the dwim stringer? 16:19
TimToady so we can still glue things together with , instead forcing everyone to concat
huh? print just does what it already does
pmichaud right now, say is just print @*args, "\n" 16:21
sorr
sorry
say is just print @args, "\n"
and each of @args ends up being stringified (via low-level .Str)
iiuc, you're wanting say to use .Stringy instead of .Str 16:23
(and we move .Str to be a bridge type for Stringy)
16:23 Eevee left
TimToady print can keep doing that, I suppose, or we could think about whether high-level stringy makes more sense for print 16:23
but that's kinda independent of what say does now
pmichaud for example, a question is whether 16:24
TimToady no, say doesn't use Stringy
16:24 Eevee joined
TimToady there are two competing meanings of "high" and "low" here 16:24
pmichaud best explanation for me would be some examples, then 16:25
especially examples from the rosetta code
I tend to see the Str vs Stringy distinction as being the difference between say Mu and say ~Mu or say 1..5 and say ~(1..5) 16:26
(which might be an incorrect viewpoint, but it comes from past discussions.)
TimToady we're talking about taking two different behaviors away from Str and putting them somewhere else 16:27
and Stringy might just call Str by default
pmichaud yes, I get that part (more)
I'm not sure what behaviors are being taken away 16:28
TimToady the two behaviors in question, one is "high", and the other is "low"
the "high" behavior is to take some arbitrary type and produce the metastring that a human would want to see while, e.g., debugging
the "low" behavior is to force stringification of things that don't normally want to stringify because we're just about to output them 16:29
pmichaud so, we want "high" behavior, but not so high that we just end up duplicating .perl
TimToady yes, because the whole point of the human output is that the human can tolerate frame violations 16:30
whereas .perl must keep all frames explicit
pmichaud I don't suppose "perl" as a listop makes sense :-)
16:31 natureboy joined
TimToady well, I keep wanting some prefix form or other 16:31
but whatever
pmichaud and you want say to have which behavior, "high" or "low" ?
TimToady the question is whether we need different functions for the high and low, or whether they can be thought of as the same thing
both behaviors
16:31 cooper left
TimToady and print is either low or nothing (coercion to "" with warning as default) 16:32
pmichaud concatenation is low behavior?
TimToady with , you mean?
pmichaud in general
i.e., $a ~ "string"
or "string $a" 16:33
TimToady in general, concatentation is .Stringy which will complain and use ""
that seems the best default for strings that are going off to other compute processes
rather than to humans
pmichaud agreed thus far
TimToady print is arguably more compute than human now that we have say 16:34
say for the human output
and "print" means send it to a printer, originally...
print is likelier to be used for things like sending data down a socket to another program 16:35
pmichaud yes; part of what has been confusing me is that the word "high" used to describe .Stringy (the coercion with warning)
that's switched now. 16:36
TimToady well, Metaphors We Live By is sometimes more like Metaphors We Die By...
and in this case probably means we should avoid the high/low metaphor entirely
pmichaud right
so, we want some method that means approximately .perl in some cases and .Str in others 16:37
i.e., that isn't quite so strict as .perl about frames
TimToady .loose :) 16:38
pmichaud that method could be just .say, fwiw
and then say as a prefix/listop simply invokes .say on its arguments
TimToady not listop
say @foo; # <- puts spaces 16:39
pmichaud low-prec prefix, then
.say then defaults to .Str or .perl, but can be overridden in cases where the context prefers that 16:40
TimToady you can always say @foo.join and such
pmichaud well, in the case of @foo.say, it should use .Str 16:41
16:41 jaldhar left, nebuchadnezzar left
TimToady .smart :) 16:41
16:41 jaldhar joined
pmichaud .human 16:41
TimToady yes, arrays default to .Str
print smart @foo; 16:42
print smart @foo, "\n"; # say
pmichaud okay, I see what you're getting too now and I'm much less confused by the high/low distinction 16:43
TimToady trouble with human is it's also a noun
pmichaud *getting to
TimToady what high/low distinction? :P
trouble is IO is both very high and very low
depending on your viewpoint
so let's take the viewpoint out of it
.terse if we think of it as a chopped down .perl 16:44
pmichaud .lrep (logical representation, or .perl backwards :-) :-) 16:45
(sorry, couldn't help myself there :)
TimToady .meta if we think of it as adding meta-info where that would be thrown away by .Str
lichtkind sorear: i just added Niecza to www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....mentations 16:46
hope more will follow :)
TimToady is tempted to call the coercion .Say 16:49
16:50 nebuchadnezzar joined
TimToady .vet has possibilities 16:55
pmichaud .meta seems a little too meta to me -- it doesn't get the "this is for I/O" concept in there. I don't follow ".vet". 16:56
lichtkind oh my ego is hurt wiki changes are no more visible :)
TimToady as in "vet this for appropriateness for children" 16:57
lichtkind added sin cos tan gcd and lcm
TimToady yes, meta is overgeneral
to vet something is to run it through a human filter for someone else 16:58
pmichaud of course, .vet can also be a noun :-)
.vetted, maybe
TimToady don't know that there's much chance of confusion on that one though
I'm looking for something shorter than 5 chars
16:59 jaldhar left
TimToady that is unlikely to be confused with anything else 16:59
16:59 jaldhar joined
JimmyZ lichtkind: Niecza doesn't have a link 17:00
pmichaud .name, .label, .text, .gist (just brainstorming) 17:02
lichtkind JimmyZ: because it has not yet a page
JimmyZ: you can change that :)
i thought i begin my mentioning it 17:03
JimmyZ oh, I think it link to github
pmichaud .form
lichtkind JimmyZ: do it :)
pmichaud .repr
.desc 17:04
17:04 Eevee left
pmichaud .pers (for "person", as well as the "s"hort form of .per"l") 17:04
or maybe the "s"imple form of per"l" :-) 17:05
there's even .perls :-)
colomon .pearl
pmichaud (not less than 5 chars, though) 17:06
17:06 Eevee joined
pmichaud .view (probably too much conflict with other concepts) 17:06
moritz .ruby (just kidding)
pmichaud there's always .dump :-) 17:07
17:08 JimmyZ left
colomon errr... .dump is kind of what the rough approximation of the concept is named in p5, right? 17:08
pmichaud right. .dump comes from the notion that this is used in debugging 17:09
TimToady most of these things are way to overloaded in the culture 17:10
pmichaud instead of .pretty, could use .beau (or .belle :-)
TimToady *too
pmichaud .cute
TimToady yttcn
pmichaud yes, I do! :)
.nice
TimToady .cat and .kitten
colomon btw, debugging in C++ the last few days has left me wishing I could use p6 for work. "say @basis" takes a remarkably large amount of code in C++....
moritz .nice-ish 17:11
17:11 jaldhar left, frelopes joined
pmichaud I kind of like .nice 17:11
TimToady .ish
pmichaud it's.... nice
17:11 jaldhar joined
colomon can we have .nasty too? 17:11
TimToady ish = "I See Humans!"
pmichaud .perlish or .pish :-)
.pfh (".perl for humans")
TimToady ish has the advantage of implying approximatoin 17:12
17:12 frelopes left
pmichaud .neat 17:12
moritz .tidy 17:13
TimToady tidy is nice, but the actual method is kind untidy
moritz .hacky
pmichaud .pith 17:14
(too noun-y)
jlaire .show is intuitive to a haskellist
pmichaud I think we're after something that gets the representation but doesn't display it 17:15
.show implies "display it"
jlaire hmm, that's what it does in haskell, but I realize it sounds misleading
TimToady it leaves out the metastuff where the user is likely to not want it
but really, it's mostly the other way around
just output some stuff, but if I get something unexpected, do something safeish instead 17:16
safeish and informative
so "vet this for the children" :)
it's the censor's *bleep* :) 17:17
pmichaud .info :-)
jlaire .what (.wat .wut :]) .dwim .tos (to string)
moritz .huh 17:18
TimToady so maybe the .perl'd bits should be in reverse video or something
17:18 Eevee left
moritz .wtf 17:18
TimToady that's not so child safe :)
17:18 Eevee joined
jlaire .nsfc 17:18
TimToady this would be a .sfh call 17:19
.safe
pmichaud I worry that .safe goes along with 'taint' somehow someday.
TimToady .defang .declaw
.coddle :)
moritz .hug 17:20
jlaire is this method going to be used often, other than implicitly by say?
pmichaud .said :-)
.phrased :-) 17:21
TimToady I can see it used where Str() and .Str look too ugly, or are not dwimmy enough
pity ok is used already 17:22
if we never have native strings, could steal .str 17:23
pmichaud too much confusion with .str, I think.
TimToady .norm 17:24
confusing with normalize though
moritz sounds like a mathematical thing
17:24 Eevee left
TimToady still like vet the best so far 17:24
moritz doesn't 17:25
17:25 Eevee joined
TimToady I agree it's not perfect 17:25
.me
print me @foo; :)
moritz maybe a bit too .cute :-) 17:26
jlaire .meh
colomon Is there a compelling reason to huffmanize it to fewer than 5 characters? it seems like something you might well never call directly...
pmichaud .sane ? 17:27
TimToady I think it will be called often as long as we don't dehuffmanize it
except it's arguably insane :)
jlaire .huff
pmichaud only for the implementors
the point is that it's been made sane by someone else :)
I was also thinking in the sense of "sanitized" 17:28
TimToady no, it really is insane in the sense that it's not a coherent set of frames
go insane in the way that humans do all the time
pmichaud that feels like .gist, then :-)
TimToady gist is pretty good, but has git overlodings 17:29
*oa
pmichaud because of the nopaste feature? that might actually reinforce as much as disassociate
TimToady gist isn't bad
print gist "Foo = ", @foo, "\n"; # what say "Foo = ", @foo; turns into 17:31
17:31 Eevee left
TimToady so gist is also a parcel processor as a (syntactic) listop 17:31
as a listop, applies .gist to each arg and then joins(') 17:32
or just returns the list
pmichaud afk for a bit -- lunchtime
TimToady let's go with gist, I guess
_patch rakudo: say '"abc"' ~~ /<+print-["]>*/ 17:33
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«␤»
_patch rakudo: say 'abc"' ~~ /<+print-["]>*/
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«abc␤»
17:33 donri joined
moritz _patch: it matches zero-width string before the " 17:34
_patch: if you don't want zero-width matches, use +
_patch moritz: thanks!
17:34 Eevee joined 17:35 ajoe47 left 17:41 PacoLinux left 17:43 PacoLinux joined 17:45 Eevee left, Eevee joined 17:50 ajoe47 joined
dalek kudo/nom: e3fb8b7 | pmichaud++ | src/core/ (3 files):
Clean up .perl a bit for List/Array/Parcel.
 17:51
17:51 Eevee left 17:52 Eevee joined
_patch rakudo: grammar X { token TOP { <print> } }; say X.parse('a') 17:53
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤ in 'Mu::print' at line 1321:CORE.setting␤ in 'X::TOP' at line 22:/tmp/HzxMvP9wH9␤ in 'Grammar::parse' at line 6463:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/HzxMvP9wH9␤»
_patch rakudo: grammar X { token TOP { <alpha> } }; say X.parse('a')
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«a␤»
_patch anyone know why i can't use <print> in my grammar? 17:56
moritz because it's a method in class Mu, of which grammars implicitly derive from 17:58
and rules are just methods
_patch moritz: how would one use the functionality normally provided by <print> in a regex, when using a grammar? 18:02
moritz _patch: <+print> or maybe <:print> (but not yet implemented) 18:10
_patch rakudo: grammar X { token TOP { <+print> } }; say X.parse('a') 18:12
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤ in 'Mu::print' at line 1321:CORE.setting␤ in 'X::TOP' at line 22:/tmp/8Npu1DxIwD␤ in 'Grammar::parse' at line 6463:CORE.setting␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/8Npu1DxIwD␤»
moritz I guess it's a bug that you can't use it that way
18:12 Eevee left 18:13 Eevee joined
TimToady wonders if there's any way to reliably detect the accidental match of a leading null string by a * 18:16
that is at least good enough to issue a warning, along with "To suppress this warning, do ..."
ashleydev thinks that there's lots of marketing that will happen implicitly if it's .wtf (think of how much people will talk about it and enjoy using it) 18:27
ashleydev also thinks that people will feel that perl6 will sympathize with them when they are debugging if it's .wtf 18:28
more human connection... 18:29
TimToady too emotionally overloaded for what it actually does
18:32 envi_laptop left
TimToady and it's not my place to force people to say crudities that might singe their consciences 18:32
jlaire how about .look 18:33
TimToady too general
and no shorter than .gist
18:44 cyk joined
cxreg this is interesting stuff 18:49
people.mozilla.com/~dmandelin/KnowY...ty2011.pdf
i assume it's old news to you guys though
dalek kudo/nom: e7026ba | pmichaud++ | src/core/ (3 files):
More .perl updates for Hash and List. Added circumfix:<{ }>, which
 18:55
TimToady wonders if while we are detanglish .Str from .gist, we should also detangle .Bool from .truth 18:59
pmichaud I wouldn't be opposed to that.
TimToady so .Bool returns True/False, but .truth can just return 0 or 1
19:00 tokuhirom left
TimToady not sure how it should play with autothreading though 19:00
well, .truth would certainly force collapse
the question is whether .Bool then autothreds like ? and so are specced to 19:01
I think probably yes
Bool is just the "bridge" type of booleans :)
dalek kudo/nom: ba008de | pmichaud++ | src/core/Hash.pm:
Fix Hash.STORE to accept Enums and EnumMaps.
 19:05
19:06 kst left 19:07 kst joined 19:09 muixirt left
moritz doesn't see the point of separate .truth and .Bool methods 19:12
we've had that before (.true and .Bool), and abolished it because it was confusing/inconsistent, and nobody could name a real benefit of the distinction
dalek ecs: 669e0dd | larry++ | S (5 files):
.Str -> .gist and .Bool -> .truth as appropriate

  .Str and .Bool are now just the normal types. The primitives used by
  'say' and conditionals are now separate methods. So .gist (and gist())
now do the forced-dwimmy human-readable stringification used by 'say', and .truth is the primitive that returns a 0 or 1 to be used internally by conditionals like 'if' and 'while'.		 19:18
TimToady we have to keep our types distinct from our predicates 19:19
19:19 Eevee left 19:20 Eevee joined
cxreg the GC tricks in that slide deck are pretty compelling 19:21
TimToady especially those predicates that are required for circularity saws
19:22 thou joined
TimToady and it's just wrong for .Bool to return an integer instead of a Bool 19:23
part of the reason we got rid of .true is because people were confusing it with True. .truth doesn't have that problem so much. 19:28
and I submit that .Bool/.Boolean was every bit as confusing if not more so 19:29
we are now *much* more consistent
Boolean is a role. Bool is a type. .truth is a primitive predicate.
moritz so 'if' and 'unless' would ask for .truth, not .Bool?
TimToady maybe it should be .TRUTH
correct 19:30
and it's now .truth that is defined in Junction so that they can collapse correctly 19:32
pmichaud prefix:<?> then uses .Bool or .Boolean (and autothreads) ? 19:33
19:33 dukeleto left
pmichaud .Boolean, probably. 19:33
TimToady it always autothreaded
19:33 dukeleto joined
pmichaud well, at one time we said that boolean context collapsed, and prefix:<?> was a contextualizer that did that 19:33
TimToady but since it autothreads externally, it could use .truth internally if it wanted to
pmichaud anyway, I'm fine with the new constellation of types, roles, gists, etc. 19:34
TimToady well, we can think about that. one could argue that Bool still needs to collapse when used as a storage type, or maybe that's just bool 19:37
as a general rule, native types can't take junctions
19:38 wamba left
TimToady wonders if that's what the universe is doing... 19:38
it's probably a symptom of our non-QM minds that we think of the collapsed value as the primitive rather than the superposed one 19:41
another of those high/low metaphors that we have to be careful about
pmichaud what high/low metaphor? ;-) 19:42
TimToady the other one that is below the third one that is hiding it on that pile over there
sorear good * #perl6 19:44
TimToady I am always up to my old tricks, except when I'm down to my old tricks.
sorear I see y'all have been busy... new spec commit for me to review
TimToady circularity sawing on Bool as well as Str 19:45
nap & # will answer Qs when I wake up
sorear lichtkind: you want wiki changes to be visible? complain to TPF and get them to stop the spam 19:48
19:49 thou left 19:52 ymasory left
sorear TimToady: I don't understand why .gist was changed 20:10
er
TimToady: I don't understand why .Bool was changed
it converts any type to Bool, it should be called Bool
also: now that you've renamed it, you need to add a special case somewhere to recover '0 but True' 20:11
also: are you saying I need to define bools in terms of Int now? :(
20:18 cbk joined 20:19 mj41 joined 20:29 natureboy left
lichtkind sorear: i did so several times to my grant manager 20:32
TimToady: is it fair to day that changes like categorize and rol are driven by the programs people write here but most of the other are driven by implementation
20:37 araujo joined 20:51 lue joined
lue hello zebras! o/ 20:51
tadzik hello lue!
20:59 cooper joined 21:01 mj41 left 21:05 kaare_ left
sorear hi... 21:08
dalek ecs: d3f2a14 | pmichaud++ | S03-operators.pod:
S03 example missing ".perl" on display of flattening Parcel results.
 21:09
sorear pmichaud: hi
pmichaud sorear: o/ 21:11
sorear pmichaud: can you explain to me why .Bool -> .truth? 21:18
tadzik does not liek
sorear will at least give it a chance to be explained 21:19
pmichaud I might not be the best explainer. But iiuc, .truth is like ".Numeric" -- it simply means "return something that I can use in a boolean context". It doesn't have to be a Bool. 21:20
sorear unrelated: Niecza and Rakudo both have some sort of GLOBAL::PARENT (although the purpose is completely different). What allowences does the spec make for this?
pmichaud GLOBAL::PARENT ?
sorear for you, it's get_root_namespace 21:21
pmichaud you mean something "above the GLOBAL namespace?"
sorear yes
pmichaud I don't know if that will exist still in nom.
that's more an artifact of Parrot than Rakudo, I suspect. 21:22
ajoe47 has a noob ??? I have perl6 in ~/rakudo and a perl6 in ~/rakudo/parrot_install/bin. Which should I use? 21:31
pmichaud the one in parrot_install/bin 21:32
ajoe47 thx
pmichaud the one in ~/rakudo only works from the ~/rakudo dir
ajoe47 gotcha!
21:33 cooper left
sorear ajoe47: there are no noobs here. that's too disrespectful for us. this place is inclusive of all comers. :) 21:38
pmichaud: AFAIK, "boolean context" is .Bool, so absolutely any object can be used in boolean context (at worst it hits Mu.defined/Bool) 21:40
TimToady shouldn't have put the .truth conjecture in with the gist
was trying to detangle observation from types, but shouldn't do that on a day like today... 21:41
pmichaud what's today like? ;-)
21:41 Psyche^ joined
sorear I'm not real attached to "0 but True" anyway, I wouldn't mind if we changed the spec in such a way as to break it :) 21:41
TimToady is trying not to observe that 21:42
21:42 icwiener left
sorear although I'd prefer an observation method that is allowed to return True and False... 21:43
1 and 0 is kinda blech
TimToady that's fine, we can break the circularity some other way
how are you breaking the circularity, out of curiosity?
to avoid .Bool.Bool.Bool.Bool.... 21:44
TimToady imagines some primitive like decide($x, {this}, {that}) 21:45
21:45 Patterner left, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
TimToady or is it just coerce to Bool and then introspect based on intimate knowledge of the Bool type? 21:46
pmichaud at some level it should probably be a native 'bool' 21:50
> say Mu, 1, 2, <a b c>, [<d e f>] 22:01
Mu()12abcd e f
dalek ecs: f1ac9f5 | larry++ | S (5 files):
revert the .truth conjecture

Shouldn't have speculated about .truth along with the .gist change, so reverting that part. Also, what conditionals do to break the boolean circularity is left up to the implementation.
pmichaud TimToady++
I've forgotten the answer to this -- is there a way to get p6eval to do an unscheduled rebuild of the latest version of an implementation? 22:02
22:03 tokuhirom joined, dukeleto left
pmichaud e.g., to get it to build the version of nom I just pushed? 22:03
dalek kudo/nom: d310eb8 | pmichaud++ | src/ (3 files):
Fixing flats part #1: Change $!flat flag to $!flattens (to avoid punditry with .flat).
kudo/nom: de6c43d | pmichaud++ | src/ (7 files):
Fixing flats part #2: Move $!flattens flag from ListIter into List.
kudo/nom: ba6af41 | pmichaud++ | src/core/ (5 files):
First cut at an implementation of 'gist' (from specs commit 669e0dd).
22:03 dukeleto joined
TimToady has bool $.Bool; # how it seems like it might be for a native bool; the api can still be .Bool 22:07
pmichaud yes, that's about what nom does... except it uses 'int' instead of 'bool' because Parrot doesn't have a native 'bool' type 22:09
TimToady it's also possible that any assignment to a boolean storage location collapses so we don't get silly errors 22:10
pmichaud nom: say 'hello'
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«hello␤»
TimToady my bool $x = any(@y) == $z; # should Just Work
pmichaud oh, no version number?
hmmm
22:11 buubot_backup left, REPLeffect joined
pmichaud nom: Perl6::Compiler.version # maybe 22:11
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 83 ((file unknown):134) (:1)␤»
pmichaud maybe not.
nom: Perl6::Compiler.compiler('perl6').version # maybe 22:12
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 83 ((file unknown):50160326) (:1)␤»
pmichaud maybe not.
TimToady there's something screwy with our notation: my Any $x as bool; 22:19
should be more like: my bool $x from Any; 22:20
22:20 Dzzy joined
TimToady or like what I was suggesting earlier: my bool(Any) $x; 22:21
22:21 masak joined
masak good midnight, #perl6 22:21
TimToady so I officially Don't Like 'as'
pmichaud nom: say Mu # yet?
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
pmichaud nom: say Mu, [3,4,5]; # yet? 22:22
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Mu()Array<73764008>␤»
pmichaud not yet.
masak: o/ !!
how goes the workshop?
masak pmichaud: it seems to be proceeding flawlessly.
pmichaud nom: my %h = <a b c d e f>; say %h.kv.perl; # is this working yet on p6eval? 22:23
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«(('a', 'b'), ('c', 'd'), ('e', 'f')).list␤»
pmichaud \o/
masak I'm a bit tired, but I thought I might pop in to edublog before going to bed.
TimToady: in Ye Olde Apocalypses, somewhere there's a mention about implicit casting being made if there's an appropriate casting method on the source type. has that feature been scrapped completely since then? 22:24
TimToady: it seems that the static assignment checking jnthn++ is building towards could still support something like that.
TimToady Cool replaced most of that 22:26
masak but Cool is a special case for Perl-native types, no?
TimToady anything beyond that probably needs the approval of the destination 22:27
my int(Cool) $x = mumble()
masak not sure I can parse the 'int(Cool)' bit.
pmichaud I think it means "cast to int from any Cool value" 22:28
if the value isn't Cool, it's a type violation
TimToady it means bind as if it's Cool, but then int() it
masak oh. is that spec'd? 22:29
TimToady misleading to use = there
no, but neither is 'as' on parameters, afaict
masak it's not? o.O
I'm pretty sure I've seen it in there somewhere.
probably in S06 or S12.
hm, maybe that was just on return values.... 22:30
TimToady yes, but nothing else
masak huh.
pmichaud it appears once in S32/Numeric.pod 22:31
S32-setting-library/Numeric.pod:244: multi method base(Cool $base as Int)
TimToady anyway, generations of programmers will revile us if 'my Cool $x as int;' is how we declare a native
masak pmichaud: right, but S32 doesn't feel normative with such things. we already take "liberties" with those method declarations in the name of explanatoriness. 22:32
pmichaud masak: I agree, just wanted to point out the (sole) reference in the current spec :)
TimToady it has to be some variant of 'my int $x;'
pmichaud my Cool => int $x; # branestorm
masak TimToady: I have to ask. what's wrong with 'int $x'? 22:33
masak hasn't backlogged properly
pmichaud my int $x = 3 + 4; # type violation, 3+4 is Int 22:34
masak I thought those types autoboxed/unboxed.
TimToady yes, those probably do
masak i.e. even if we don't have autoconversion anywhere else, we do on those types.
TimToady I'm more going after parameters
masak same thing there, no? 22:35
or doesn't that work because of binding?
TimToady sub foo (Cool $x as int) just looks wrong when it's more like (int $x accepts Cool) 22:36
or (int(Cool) $x) in my head
which looks like a coercion
masak int $x digs Cool
;)
TimToady shoots masak in a dispassionate sort of way 22:37
masak :P
TimToady then hugs him
masak too late, I'm wounded...
TimToady you're the one playing with time usually
debug yourself :) 22:38
masak implementor, debug thyself.
TimToady and generally we'd probably say: (int() $x) to default to something like Cool or Any 22:39
and to address the boxing issue, maybe native types default to box, so 'my int $x;' is short for 'my int(Int) $x;' 22:40
masak +1 22:41
defaulting to box is something I've just assumed so far.
22:42 thou joined
lichtkind masak: how long you will be around? 22:43
TimToady my &intboxer := &int.assuming(Int);
pmichaud in the backlog you once suggested sub foo(Foo>Bar $x) { ... } to coerce from Foo to Bar
masak lichtkind: I'm already asleep, actually. I'm just writing a blog post before my session times out.
pmichaud: I don't like overloading '>' with coercion, just as I don't like Ruby's overloading of the numeric relationals with 'is' semantics. 22:44
pmichaud: 'as' is much clearer to me. 22:45
TimToady as is going to die
masak I gathered as much :)
lichtkind masak: well than sleep well :)
masak TimToady: just saying I liked it.
lichtkind: thanks. you too :)
pmichaud when this was discussed before, I remember some complications with the From(To) syntax... I'm looking those up
22:46 thou left, buubot_backup joined
TimToady declarative as, but perhaps not infix:<as> 22:46
it's To(From)
so that To() can default
pmichaud okay, To(From)
I still remember having an unresolved issue with it. 22:47
I'm seeing if I can track it down in the ir clogs
lichtkind TimToady: if i may reinforce my question, did categorize and roll and mcd are driven by programs or by your ideas
TimToady I have no idea what you're asking
masak btw, 'uniq' isn't spec'd. is the Rakudo implementation of it a rogue thing, or should it be spec'd?
TimToady and if I did, the answer is probably both
well, if we spec it, we'll have to decide its semantics 22:48
masak that's what I'm thinking. 22:49
I'm kinda curious what semantics it has...
if I knew, I'd have spec'd it already.
pmichaud I think 'uniq' was at one time one of those operators that TheDamian said should be a builtin because so many people get it wrong :-)
TimToady well, does it require a sorted list, first off 22:50
masak TimToady: no.
TimToady: that was determined on p6l long ago.
TimToady: and I think it's right to break Unix "tradition" there.
TimToady then doesn't dup 'sort :uniq' :)
masak huh? is *that* spec'd? :P
TimToady next question is which identity semantics
masak aye. 22:51
Rakudo's uniq hashes strings.
I don't really like that.
TimToady if it isn't, and uniq doesn't require sorted, then sort should probably take a :uniq option
since the algo for sorted is much more memory efficient
lichtkind TimToady: i just wondered how much influence the actual perl 6 modules/programs have on the spec lately
masak I don't mind sort taking a :uniq option.
TimToady so it should probably be === semantics
meaning an object hash 22:52
masak I think so, yes.
TimToady or a Set
masak Rakudo's Set uses uniq.
TimToady a Set should probably default to === semantics
masak aye.
TimToady but I'll bet rakudo's uniq doesn't
masak and so should uniq, probably.
no, it doesn't.
it uses Str comparisons, because uniq does. 22:53
TimToady "Well, there you have it."
masak nods
that was easier than I thought. :)
flussence wouldn't .uniq just be a duplicate of .Set.List then?
masak whoa, circularity.
TimToady .uniq is readable 22:54
but I think it's not the same
masak no.
TimToady .uniq can be lazy
masak .uniq preserves order.
.Set.List doesn't have to.
TimToady that too 22:55
my KeySet %seen; take $next unless %seen++; 22:56
well, with a gather between
and a loop...
masak I don't feel a need to spec the exact implementation... :) 22:57
just enough to nail it down.
TimToady yeah
flussence I've never seen that %hash++ thing before... does that increment the .each counter?
masak but yes, I agree about the above semantics.
flussence: I think it was TimToady being sloppy :)
flussence still seems like a neat idea :) 22:58
masak ...or not... :)
masak isn't a fan of 'each'
TimToady sub uniq { grep {(state KeySet %)[$_]++ or $_} @_ }
masak stateful container types. yech.
TimToady %hash++ is a typo 22:59
flussence aww
masak \o/ 23:00
TimToady so is the missing comma before @_ ^^^
flussence std: my %hash; %hash++;
p6eval std 37a0cdd: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
TimToady and it's wrong
flussence I'll just have to define that ++ myself... :)
TimToady state % is KeySet
otherwise it's a hash of KeySets 23:01
sub uniq { grep {(START KeySet.new)[$_]++ or $_}, @_ } # more like this 23:02
23:03 daniel-s joined
TimToady wonders if we should really rename START to STATE 23:03
masak TimToady: STATE feels less like a phase than START. 23:05
START gives me a sense of when things execute. which is kind of the point of phaser names.
TimToady maybe it's enough that the begin with the same letters 23:06
*they
masak :P
flussence close enough :) 23:07
masak STAVANGER
TimToady we could rename 'state' to 'start' and really confuse the P5ers :)
23:07 aindilis` left
masak I would mind that less :) 23:07
but I also think it's fine the way it is now...
TimToady I think we'll leave it alone 23:08
23:08 aindilis` joined
TimToady it's not like we have an OUR phaser either 23:08
masak that... does not seem to make sense.
now, a HAS phaser I *could* see. 23:09
probably composition time or something.
blog post! strangelyconsistent.org/blog/june-1...-junctions 23:10
TimToady well, see S03:4825
masak oh, so in a sense we do have one. 23:12
fair enough. I agree seeking consistency there would be foolish.
TimToady or at least hobgobliny 23:13
masak and smallminded. 23:14
TimToady there are hobgobliny things that are neither foolish nor smallminded :)
pmichaud masak: might mention that the way to find a winner in an array is via .grep 23:15
or even .first
TimToady lichtkind: perhaps more to the point, I don't remember
masak TimToady: www.ratebeer.com/beer/wychwood-hobg...ask/44542/ , for example :)
pmichaud: good idea.
pmichaud @contestants.first($winner) # returns the first $winner
masak adds that
pmichaud @contestants.grep($winner) # returns all of the winners 23:16
TimToady @contestants.grep($winner).head
pmichaud we want to decapitate the winner? <shudder> 23:17
TimToady isn't that how you create hobgoblins?
pmichaud consistently, yes.
TimToady Sleepy Hollow, and all that
masak no wonder they have small minds.
pmichaud: .grep is a forwards reference, but I like it so much I'm going to put it in there anyway. 23:19
TimToady it's not like most of these folks won't have seen grep
though anymore it's misnamed 23:20
should be .gap, for generalized ACCEPT pattern, or some such
ah well, "regular expressions" were never so irregular.. 23:21
masak TimToady: my target group is 12..15-year-old beginners interested in programming.
pmichaud masak: meaning they're likely to have known about grep for 11..14 years :-P 23:22
TimToady what? kid friendly?
masak :P
daniel-s rakudo: (1..6).roll;
masak 'night, #perl6.
p6eval rakudo 248244: ( no output )
pmichaud masak is writing @tutorials>>.vet :-P
"safe for children"
daniel-s rakudo: say (1..6).roll;
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«5␤» 23:23
23:23 masak left
TimToady next thing you know you'll be talking about butterflies and candy 23:23
daniel-s rakudo: say (1..6).roll;
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«2␤»
daniel-s rakudo: say (1..6).pick;
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«3␤»
daniel-s are .roll and .pick the same thing?
TimToady at that point yes 23:24
however
try .roll(20)
rakudo: say (1..6).roll(20) 23:25
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«24246265414665513516␤»
TimToady rakudo: say (1..6).pick(20)
daniel-s rakudo: $_ = (1..100); say .roll(20);
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«541263␤»
rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«14923260415897101919012146804497876735␤»
daniel-s rakudo: say (1..6).pick(20)
p6eval rakudo 248244: OUTPUT«134625␤»
TimToady roll used to be pick(:replace) 23:26
daniel-s pick selects things one time only?
TimToady yes
"pick rocks out of a bag" metaphor
lichtkind TimToady: my question is how foreces changed that drive the spec over the year, it seems to me that forst there were the ideas what we need, and its more and more practical things now 23:27
i know roll
TimToady I don't remember that sort of thing
lichtkind i just spend some time in the spec diffs to update the tablet index
TimToady in particular because the design process in my head is largely unconscious to begin with 23:28
lichtkind TimToady: so evil forces could whisper into your head and you wouldn't even otice? 23:29
TimToady and I have a hard enough time remembering the future that I tend not to remember the past.
lichtkind notice
TimToady evil forces whisper in my head continuously; remember my theology is about Original Sin. :)
bbl & 23:30
lichtkind TimToady: in my understanding christian theologeans made their own ideas about jewish concepts on that matter :)
have fun :) 23:31
its a real blessing to have those diffs on git hub for my work 23:34
sorear I wander off for <2 hours and *so much*... 23:41
TimToady: Currently, .Bool once, then intimate knowledge. Changing it to .Bool until fixed point is on my agenda 23:42
TimToady: I don't think using Int instead helps with circularity. 1.Int.Int.Int.Int.Int... doesn't give you a decide-able value
TimToady: I still don't really follow the logic of stores to native types. Is it intended to be a completely ad-hoc coercion process? bool(Any) calls .Bool then stashes the native booleyness 23:44
How do object hashes ...hash? 23:47
flussence well, you could .perl them then md5-hash that string... :) /me ducks 23:54

Powered by Cro and the Raku® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!