»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
00:21 whiteknight left, whiteknight joined 00:28 tokuhirom left 00:30 kfo left 00:31 daniel-s joined, kfo joined 00:32 [Coke] left 00:34 [Coke] joined 00:35 wolfman2000 joined 00:46 ssotka left 01:03 noganex left 01:05 noganex joined
TimToady rakudo: use DateTime; say 'alive' 01:06
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to find module 'DateTime' in the @*INC directories.␤(@*INC contains:␤ lib␤ /home/p6eval/.perl6/lib␤ /home/p6eval//p1/lib/parrot/3.5.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib␤ .)␤»
sorear good * #perl6 01:28
phenny sorear: 03 Jul 20:45Z <moritz> tell sorear about a name idea for niecza: "FeP6" - like "Iron Perl 6", but with the symbol Fe for iron :-)
lue when it comes to the ords method and sub, should I basically just copy what master says? I've already done that for Str's method, but the sub form beginning with 'proto' makes me want to make sure.
TimToady o/ welcome back! 01:32
sorear thank you 01:33
lue for nom, should the char/chars/ord/ords methods and subs go in Cool.pm or Str.pm (in src/core)? 01:41
sorear has finished scanning a week of backlog 01:42
01:57 whiteknight left 02:43 _jaldhar joined 02:54 Limbic_Region left 02:58 lichtkind left 03:05 everbrew joined 03:14 woosley joined 03:23 Su-Shee_ joined 03:25 Su-Shee left
lue rakudo: say [63,65].chars 03:38
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«5␤»
03:41 soh_cah_toa left
lue I just realize now I was saying chars when I meant to say chrs. 03:41
03:51 kaare_ joined 04:08 agentzh joined 04:15 satyavvd joined 04:16 am0c joined
dalek p: ebe6acb | pmichaud++ | src/core/NQPMu.pm:
Parrot's Data::Dumper apparently requires boxed arguments.
 04:18
04:19 kaare_ left, envi joined 04:25 satyavvd left 04:31 sftp left, sftp joined
lue nom: my $a=3; 04:35
p6eval nom: ( no output )
lue
.oO(now I wonder what I broke...)
04:38 QinGW joined
sorear niecza: my $a=3; 04:47
p6eval niecza v7-11-g9ba8284: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $a is declared but not used at /tmp/dJAFeoaVlZ line 1:␤------> my ⏏$a=3;␤␤»
dalek ecza: 0b2219d | sorear++ | / (2 files):
Fix +=-based meta operators (pmichaud++)
 04:48
thou niecza: given my $a = 3 { .say }
p6eval niecza v7-11-g9ba8284: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $a is declared but not used at /tmp/dNAr8ElTyk line 1:␤------> given my ⏏$a = 3 { .say }␤␤3␤» 04:49
thou nom: given my $a = 3 { .say }
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«3␤»
lue I know what I did (stupid bash insisting on interpolating "" strings) 04:51
sorear hehe, we all do that
lue nom: say 1..3; say 1...3;
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤1..3␤1 2 3 ␤»
sorear nowadays I have a habit of using '' for -e strings
remember you can use q[] in Perl 04:52
I wish for a bourney shell with Tcl-style quoting
04:57 Bzek joined
lue nom: say 1..3; print 1..3; 05:00
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤1..3␤123»
sorear nom: gist 1..3
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤»
sorear nom: (1..3).gist
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤»
lue |$ (as found in sub say(|$) { ) flattens what's fed to it, right? 05:07
sorear no
05:07 pjcj left
sorear it's a bit of a fossil really 05:08
| in signatures used to be related to | in parameter lists
but now they're separate things
| in a signature means "get the full parameter list as a Capture object, accepting any combination of parameters"
|$ means "accept and ignore any parameters whatsoever" 05:09
in nom, |$ is usually used when the parameters are going to be accessed by Some Other Means
niecza uses "is rawcall" instead, but |$ is much more elegant; I'd like tos witch
lue (in nom's src/core/IO.pm) I'm curious as to why print and say go about the task completely differently, when I'd imagine you just need to define say as "print plus newline" (I expect, though, it's not that easy.) 05:10
sorear lue: you're stuck in the two weeks ago. we completely changed the definition of say, it no longer has anything to do with print 05:11
05:12 Zapelius left
lue That explains my confusion :) [now to read the spec about the changes] 05:13
sorear grep for "gist" 05:15
lue so, (IIUC,) say now gets the .gist of what you pass to it, while print does what it does the old way. 05:23
[admittedly I've never bothered to learn how exactly say did it, so I don't know how it used to do it.] 05:24
jnthn morning, #perl6 05:25
sorear JNTHN! 05:27
lue so is nom's behavior right with say 1..3; ?
sorear no 05:28
jnthn o/ sorear
sorear I don't care what the spec says, nom's behavior is OBVIOUSLY WRONG :D
jnthn nom: say 1...3 05:29
sorear jnthn: how was #perl6 without me?
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«1 2 3 ␤»
sorear that's... also wrong.
jnthn sorear: The air was kinda thick and smoke filled
oh, wait, that's 'cus I was in Beijing while you were gone... :)
lue nom: say 1..3; say 1...3;
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤1..3␤1 2 3 ␤»
jnthn suspects those uninit value errors come from something internaly. 05:30
Which is wrong, and thus how we get the errors
pmichaud++ will probably spot when he backlogs :)
lue Perl 6 internals or nqp internals? 05:31
jnthn Something in CORE 05:33
05:45 birdwindupbird joined
thou rakudo: say "def".subst(/ 'd' ('e')? 'f' /, { 'D' ~ $0.perl ~ 'F' }); 05:54
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«DAnyF␤»
sorear niecza: say "def".subst(/ 'd' ('e')? 'f' /, { 'D' ~ $0 ~ 'F' }); 05:55
p6eval niecza v7-12-g0b2219d: OUTPUT«DeF␤»
thou anyone know how to get «DeF» out of that?
sorear well first off, don't use .perl
thou well, yeah
doesn't help, rakudo gives me DAny()F then :-)
05:55 zby_home left
thou rakudo: say "def".subst(/ 'd' ('e'?) 'f' /, { 'D' ~ $0.perl ~ 'F' }); 05:56
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«DAnyF␤»
sorear rakudo can't use match variables directly in subst closueres
05:56 Khisanth left, cooper left
sorear at the cost of making your code unportable, you can use -> $/ { "D$0F" } 05:56
thou i guess that got lost in -ng branch
sorear why do you keep wanting to use .perl? 05:57
thou is trying to get some old code working
05:57 [perlhack] joined
sorear rakudo: say "def".subst(/ 'd' ('e')? 'f' /, -> $/ { 'D' ~ $0.perl ~ 'F' }); 05:57
thou no reason, just to see what's in the thing
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«D[Match.new(␤ from => 1,␤ orig => "def",␤ to => 2,␤)]F␤»
thou sorear, thanks. i'll go with that, with a #RAKUDO comment to remind me that it's a buggy workaround 05:59
sorear thou: what are you working on?
06:00 Su-Shee_ is now known as Su-Shee
thou sorear: trying to get november to work on current rakudo 06:03
evidently rakudo *used* to be able to use match vars in subst closure :-)
currently i'm going through "prove -r -eperl6 t" and getting it all to pass. using whatever means necessary. >:-}
then i'll try to get the actual wiki running
then i'll try to bring it up to date, using Web.pm and whatever modules are in the community
at least, that's the current plan
sorear I think I'll do the same thing :> 06:05
06:06 Chillance joined 06:13 Khisanth joined
thou cool :-) 06:14
i should put a fork on github then
06:14 [perlhack] left
sorear thou: I mean making November run on niecza. 06:14
thou yeah, but we could compare notes 06:15
s/but/and/
sorear or whatever I will call the Perl 6 implementation I relase this month
06:17 koban joined, koban left 06:18 pjcj joined 06:19 drbean left 06:20 Jackneill joined
dalek kudo/nom: b9db729 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/ClassHOW.pm:
Fix .^isa bug spotted by tadzik++/pmichaud++; was missing decont, as guessed.
 06:36
06:37 wtw joined 06:42 birdwindupbird left 06:46 pjcj left 06:55 pjcj joined, kytibe left 06:57 quiccker joined 07:00 beekor joined
dalek p: 5c9cd12 | jonathan++ | src/ops/nqp.ops:
Add op for checking if an attr has been initialized, thus exposing one of the recent REPR additions.
 07:06
07:14 drbean joined
dalek ecza: 739ab2f | sorear++ | lib/CORE.setting:
Fix Match.perl after then $0 change
 07:14
kudo/nom: 8cb00d5 | jonathan++ | / (2 files):
Fix my ($a, $, $b) = 1,2,3;
 07:19
kudo/nom: 8de8d4b | jonathan++ | / (2 files):
Bump NQP_REVISION; chase 6model API update.
kudo/nom: 672c32a | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Only use default attr init closure if the attribute is not otherwise initialized. Should work even if user provides their own BUILD.
kudo/nom: 9000c38 | jonathan++ | NOMMAP.markdown:
Update nommap.
sorear perl6: sub foo(@x is copy) { say @x.perl }; foo([1,2,3]) 07:28
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«[[1, 2, 3],]␤»
..rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3]␤»
..niecza v7-13-g739ab2f: OUTPUT«[[1, 2, 3]].list␤»
jnthn nom: sub foo(@x is copy) { say @x.perl }; foo([1,2,3]) 07:29
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Array.new(1, 2, 3)␤»
sorear jnthn: why? 07:30
jnthn sorear: why what? 07:34
sorear jnthn: why does rakudo do that? 07:35
jnthn Dunno. It's not wrong, I guess...
nom: say [1,2,3].perl 07:36
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3]␤»
jnthn oh
hm
oh!
I guess it's flattening or not, or something
sorear: For anything on list/array handling, pmichaud is the right person to ask. I've barely been following that area. 07:37
sorear jnthn: niecza interprets @x is copy as \$x; my @x = $x
I'm changing it now to do a proper list binding *first*
(well, a sort of proper list binding. It doesn't actually check for Positional...) 07:38
jnthn sorear: Forget exactly what the binder does there, but I think it's a normal list assignment.
07:40 pjcj left
thou sorear: getting close, down to two kinds of failure: gist.github.com/1069055 07:43
07:43 mj41 joined
dalek kudo/nom: 2898945 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
Add missing multi-dispatch cache invalidation.
 07:45
kudo/nom: 3279598 | jonathan++ | NOMMAP.markdown:
Remove now-resolved .Bool dispatch issue from nommap.
jnthn Time to give $dayjob some love.
07:49 pjcj joined 07:52 ab5tract joined
dalek ecza: bad54f1 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
Fix @x is copy for non-flatteny arguments
 07:59
tadzik good morning zebras 08:05
sorear hello, tadzik
jnthn o/ tadzik 08:06
tadzik sorear: welcome back! 08:09
jnthn: thanks for fixing the isa
08:10 daxim joined
sorear tadzik: thank you 08:11
jnthn tadzik: welcome. I mostly need to focus on $dayjob for the next hours, but if you hit any other blockers lemme know and I can look
tadzik jnthn: no worries
moritz_ good morning 08:12
tadzik good morning moritz_
moritz_ tadzik: how's life and hacking?
sorear moritz_: in backlog, you said you had an issue with niecza on 2.6.7
moritz_: what was it?
tadzik moritz_: very good. We have pod tests in nom now :) 08:13
see the blog post too
moritz_ sorear: after the new release, simply typing "make" resulted in completly borked niecza. git clean -xdf fixed it 08:14
08:14 eiro is now known as marc, marc is now known as eiro
moritz_ (in an updated git checkout, that is) 08:15
08:15 Jackneill left
sorear I see 08:15
moritz_ tadzik++ # blog post 08:18
jnthn o/ moritz_
08:18 wamba joined
tadzik moritz_: what's the policy on rakudo's t/? What if I want to check the passes in t/pod/, should do I do it manually, add a makefile target? 08:19
moritz_ starts his day with 'git log' in nom, even before reading hackernews or perlmonks :-)
tadzik: makefile target is fine
tadzik: you could also have the default 'make test' run them, but I guess that's a bit too noisy for you right now 08:20
tadzik yes. One merry day they'll just become spectests I believe. The form will have to be decided, for now it's "whatever works" 08:21
jnthn moritz_: I'm worse than that, these days I read the nom commits page from GitHub on my phone before getting out of bed :) 08:22
Then I know what bugs to think about fixes for in the shower. :)
moritz_ tadzik: I'm fine with a 'make podtest' or whatever you want to call it
tadzik these days, when I wake up, I pick my laptop from under the bed and read the rss akregator
yesterday, just before I got asleep, a thought came "hey, that's just a spli() I need!", and I had to note it down :) I should maybe move from code commets to my paper notebook 08:24
08:24 ab5tract left 08:28 Jackneill joined 08:33 alim joined, alim is now known as fimgolfin
tadzik "Defaults should only be used if attribute never accessed", says NOMMAP. What if a default is ' = die "is a required parameter"'? 08:33
sorear -> seleep 08:34
tadzik g'night 08:35
dalek kudo/podparser: b9db729 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/ClassHOW.pm:
Fix .^isa bug spotted by tadzik++/pmichaud++; was missing decont, as guessed.
kudo/podparser: 8cb00d5 | jonathan++ | / (2 files):
Fix my ($a, $, $b) = 1,2,3;
kudo/podparser: 8de8d4b | jonathan++ | / (2 files):
Bump NQP_REVISION; chase 6model API update.
kudo/podparser: 672c32a | jonathan++ | src/ (2 files):
Only use default attr init closure if the attribute is not otherwise initialized. Should work even if user provides their own BUILD.
kudo/podparser: 9000c38 | jonathan++ | NOMMAP.markdown:
Update nommap.
kudo/podparser: 2898945 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
Add missing multi-dispatch cache invalidation.
kudo/podparser: 3279598 | jonathan++ | NOMMAP.markdown:
Remove now-resolved .Bool dispatch issue from nommap.
kudo/podparser: 9cd2db4 | tadzik++ | / (13 files):
Merge branch 'nom' into podparser
kudo/podparser: 9fb8447 | tadzik++ | t/pod/01-delimited.t:
Untodo a test thanks to isa fixes
kudo/podparser: 75c79fb | tadzik++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
[Makefile] Add a podtest target
tadzik blfh
08:36 wamba left 08:48 mj41 left 08:51 ab5tract joined
dalek kudo/nom: cc83922 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
6 more passing test files (now at 4.6k passing tests)
 08:52
ast: a0a2a81 | moritz++ | S (3 files):
assorted rakudo unfudges
 08:53
jnthn feeds?!
nom: 1,2,3,4 ==> map * ** 2 ==> join '\n' ==> say 08:54
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'map'. Available candidates are:␤:(Callable &code, Positional @values)␤␤current instr.: 'map' pc 327903 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:80336) (src/gen/CORE.setting:595)␤»
jnthn nom: 1,2,3,4 ==> join '\n' ==> say
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«1\n2\n3\n4␤»
jnthn er :)
hm
08:55 dakkar joined
jnthn nom: say map * + 2, 1,2,3,4; 08:55
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'map'. Available candidates are:␤:(Callable &code, Positional @values)␤␤current instr.: 'map' pc 327903 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:80336) (src/gen/CORE.setting:595)␤»
jnthn nom: say map * + 2, (1,2,3,4);
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'map'. Available candidates are:␤:(Callable &code, Positional @values)␤␤current instr.: 'map' pc 327903 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:80336) (src/gen/CORE.setting:595)␤»
jnthn nom: say (* + 2).WHAT
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«_block1014␤»
jnthn nom: say (* + 2) ~~ Callable
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
jnthn er
nom: * + 2 08:56
p6eval nom: ( no output )
jnthn nom: say (* + 2)(2)
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«4␤»
jnthn nom: my $x = * + 2; say $s.WHAT
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Symbol '$s' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/olXaiWgVgx:1)␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:107)␤»
jnthn nom: my $x = * + 2; say $x.WHAT
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«WhateverCode()␤»
jlaire nom: my $f = * + 2; say map $f, 1,2,3,4; 08:57
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'map'. Available candidates are:␤:(Callable &code, Positional @values)␤␤current instr.: 'map' pc 327903 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:80336) (src/gen/CORE.setting:595)␤»
jnthn nom: my $f = * + 2; say map $f, (1,2,3,4);
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'map'. Available candidates are:␤:(Callable &code, Positional @values)␤␤current instr.: 'map' pc 327903 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:80336) (src/gen/CORE.setting:595)␤» 08:58
jnthn nom: my $f = * + 2; say map $f, [1,2,3,4];
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'map'. Available candidates are:␤:(Callable &code, Positional @values)␤␤current instr.: 'map' pc 327903 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:80336) (src/gen/CORE.setting:595)␤»
jnthn nom: say WhateverCode ~~ Callable
jlaire nom: sub f(Callable $x) { say 42 }; f(* + 2)
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$x'; expected Callable but got WhateverCode instead␤current instr.: 'f' pc 383 ((file unknown):63865447) (/tmp/VpfIeEcM2H:1)␤»
nom: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
jnthn oh
That's the real issue. WhateverCode doesn't do Callable
nom: say Code ~~ Callable 08:59
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
jnthn nom: say WhateverCode ~~ Callable
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
jnthn hm
jlaire nom: say WhateverCode ~~ Code
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
jnthn oh, I see what's going on... 09:05
dalek kudo/nom: 5c39eca | jonathan++ | / (3 files):
Should not compose subclasses before their parent classes (will support this later probably, but for now it's a no-no). Fixes WhateverCode ~~ Callable issue.
 09:14
09:16 pjcj left 09:19 _twitch joined, Mowah joined 09:28 Jackneill left 09:29 bbkr joined 09:31 cognominal left, cognominal joined 09:35 frettled left, frettled joined 09:38 pjcj joined
thou perl6: say ([1,2] Z [*,*]).perl 09:42
p6eval niecza v7-14-gbad54f1: OUTPUT«([1, 2], [Whatever.new(...), Whatever.new(...)]).list␤»
..rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«(1, Any, 2, Any)␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«((1, Inf), (2, Inf))␤»
thou nom: say ([1,2] Z [*,*]).perl
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«((1, Whatever<77724736>), (2, Whatever<77724496>)).list␤»
09:59 woosley left 10:02 QinGW left 10:03 mj41 joined, satyavvd joined 10:06 _twitch left
dalek ast: 53c1453 | moritz++ | S (6 files):
rakudo unfudges
 10:15
thou \o/ All tests successful. Files=43, Tests=236, 362 wallclock secs ( 0.25 usr 0.20 sys + 210.91 cusr 13.68 csys = 225.04 CPU) Result: PASS 10:22
10:22 agentzh left
moritz_ nom: say Bool.pick 10:22
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool()␤»
thou moritz_: i got november test suite passing on current rakudo :-) 10:23
10:23 _twitch joined
moritz_ thou: that's great 10:23
thou: I hope you have a commit bit, and have pushed it :-) 10:24
10:24 hugme joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v hugme
moritz_ wonders why hugme keeps leaving and not rejoining 10:24
dalek ast: b9895db | moritz++ | S02-builtin_data_types/array_ref.t:
fudge a failing test in array_ref.t for rakudo
 10:25
10:26 _twitch left 10:27 whiteknight joined 10:29 mj41 left, mj41 joined 10:30 kthakore left, Chillance left 10:33 kthakore joined
dalek ast: c221290 | moritz++ | S02-builtin_data_types/bool.t:
fudge bool.t for rakudo
 10:34
moritz_ I should push fudges *before* I add the test file to t/spectest.data :-)
10:35 felher left
jnthn ;-) 10:36
10:40 felher joined 10:42 buubot_backup left 10:50 [Coke] left, im2ee joined
tadzik thou: current Rakudo means Rakudo master? 10:50
thou yes
tadzik nice
thou i'll need a few more features in nom (grammars, for instance) 10:51
10:51 [Coke] joined
tadzik oh, november is not Web.pm-dependant 10:51
thou not yet :-)
tadzik I see :)
Web.pm started passing some tests recently 10:52
(on master)
thou once i get november working, i'd like to convert it to web.pm
jnthn thou++ 10:53
tadzik nom: my $array_ref1 = ("foo", "bar", "baz"); $array_ref1 ~~ Seq
p6eval nom: ( no output )
tadzik nom: my $array_ref1 = ("foo", "bar", "baz"); say $array_ref1 ~~ Seq
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
tadzik looks like a recent isa fix regression
moritz_ nom: my $array_ref1 = ("foo", "bar", "baz"); say $array_ref1.WHAT
jnthn tadzik: Don't think nom uses Seq for anything yet
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
moritz_ nom: say Parcel ~~ Seq 10:54
jnthn It's stubbed but that's all.
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
tadzik or maybe it's a new test
moritz_ tadzik: if we ever passed that test, it was a false positive
im2ee Perl6 is still Larry's creation? :)
jnthn (false positive) yes, agree
tadzik im2ee: yes
im2ee Hm, I'm learning Perl5, it's better to change Perl5 to Perl6? 10:55
moritz_ im2ee: what do you want to do with it? 10:56
flussence
.oO( you know you're having a bad day when you find statements like "int(sprintf($_/255*100)).'%'" )
im2ee Hmm, I don't have specific way.
tadzik im2ee: is it just for fun, not for a Job opportunities or anything? 10:57
dalek kudo/nom: 1dc9308 | moritz++ | / (2 files):
Bool.Int, run tests
kudo/nom: 32ab8d4 | moritz++ | src/core/BackTrace.pm:
change BackTrace handling a bit: collect all the information, and only filter on strintification
moritz_ im2ee: in here we believe that Perl 6 is certainly the nicer language, but we can't yet compete with perl 5's maturity and module system
im2ee Hm, now It's for fun, but in future i want to use Perl for a job. 10:58
tadzik Perl 6 is not really enterprise-y in its current state
im2ee So, I should learn Perl5 at the beggining? 10:59
beginning*
tadzik if you plan to use it professionally, Perl 5 is probably the way to go 11:00
flussence learn both, they're different languages
tadzik learning both at the same time may be a bit confusing 11:01
flussence well not at the same time, but limiting yourself to one language won't benefit you much :) 11:02
11:03 wamba joined
im2ee Ok. Thanks. :) 11:03
I saw this: www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....l_6_tablet
11:03 buubot_backup joined
im2ee And Perl6 impressed me. 11:03
:)
tadzik yes, Perl 6 is quite impressive :) That's why we use it even though not everything is ready 11:04
im2ee When it'll be ready? :) 11:05
tadzik although the "Case construct" part is lying a bit"
"
im2ee: before christmas :) 11:07
flussence tadzik: I can see plenty more code errors on that page... it's a good effort though :)
im2ee Great! :)
tadzik im2ee: at least that's what Larry said in 2000 :) 11:08
11:09 mj41 left
im2ee :) Ok 11:09
So i go back to learning Perl5! :) 11:10
Thanks for help. :)
tadzik you're welcome :) 11:12
flussence just make sure you learn good Perl 5, and not from out of date examples or something: www.onyxneon.com/books/modern_perl/index.html
(that's a good starting point)
11:13 daniel-s left 11:16 [Coke] left 11:18 [Coke] joined 11:21 mls joined
mls jnthn: I've got a question about the autoviv handling in 6model/reprs/P6opaque.c 11:22
11:24 mj41 joined
mls when repr_data->auto_viv_conf gets allocated, shouldn't the code alloc info_ 11:26
11:26 [Coke] left
mls and shouldn't the code realloc the auto_viv_conf block after it knows how many entries are needed? 11:27
jnthn mls: looking 11:28
11:28 [Coke] joined
mls OTOH if memory is not that much of an issue, wouldn't it be better to just use the slot to index auto_viv_conf instead of checking for a matching offset? 11:28
jnthn mls: INTVAL info_alloc = num_attrs == 0 ? 1 : num_attrs; 11:29
There will never be more auto-vivs than there are attrs.
mls yes, but the while loop later runs until it hits cur_auto_viv_conf->offset == NULL 11:30
jnthn ah
yeah, I see
fail.
mls no, not fail 11:31
jnthn Yeah, 'tis a bug. Thanks
mls++
mls I guess it always finds the offset if the array is "full"
jnthn Oh
Yeah, you're right.
But still, it's risky.
It should always work though
mls Yes. I was just wondering if an realloc would make sense.
or, if indexing with the slot wouldn't be better instead of searching for the offset 11:32
jnthn Maybe...realloc ain't free either.
Indexing with the slot *would* be a win.
If we're going to allocate the lot, may as well use it efficienlty.
mls Right. 11:33
That might actually save some memory because you don't need to store the offset
jnthn Hm, yes. 11:34
mls depending on how many slots use autoviv)
jnthn That depends mostly on the language...NQP doesn't use it at all, Rakudo uses it heavily.
mls if it doesn't get used at all, the array is not allocated, so it doesn't hurt for nqp 11:35
jnthn Right
I think for the most part - native attrs aside - it's probably all or nothing.
mls so switching to index by slot would be a win.
jnthn Yeah, and now that I know I'm killing the ->spill thingy, there's no reason index by slot won't work out. 11:36
mls nice. ok, I just wanted to draw your attention to the code. Thanks! 11:37
jnthn mls: Noted it down, so I won't forget it. Thanks!
mls: Also, if you have time/interest, I'd happily accept a patch. 11:38
mls: Otherwise, will get to it in the near future.
I'll be in P6opaque.c soon anyway to sort out mixin support.
mls okay. Maybe I find some spare time ;-)
jnthn :)
tadzik huh. Are there any circumstances under which a Match object's .ast can disappear over time? 11:39
jnthn tadzik: Gee, I hope not :) 11:40
tadzik: Never seen anything like that happen...
tadzik: Can probably guess more if I see some code and what you're running into 11:41
11:42 Chillance joined
tadzik yeah, gisting 11:42
jnthn: gist.github.com/1069339
11:45 thou left 11:46 birdwindupbird joined, [Coke] left
jnthn for $<pod_content> { ... } 11:48
11:48 [Coke] joined
jnthn tadzik: What does that actually capture? 11:48
11:48 im2ee left
tadzik jnthn: that can be either pod_content:sym<text> of pod_content:sym<block> 11:49
the first's ast is an array of strings, the second's is a Pod::Block
that's why I'm checking whether it's an array or not
jnthn Your action method is for pod_block though, not pod_content
tadzik hmm 11:50
jnthn token pod_content:sym<block> {
tadzik oh wait
jnthn Do you have an action method for this, which passes the AST made for <pod_block> oh up?
*on
tadzik token pod_content:sym<block> has <pod_block> inside, true
11:50 satyavvd left
jnthn Right, you need to explicitly pass the AST upwards 11:51
tadzik looks that I don't. I wonder how did that work...
you're right, thank you
jnthn np :)
11:51 thou joined
jnthn Side benefit of this is once you grok it all well, you'll grok how much of the rest of Rakudo's grammar/actions work :) 11:51
tadzik yeah, it's all about learning, isn't it? :) 11:52
yay, works! 11:53
jnthn++
next step: I'm stubbing every prototype in gsocmess, Justin Case :)
jnthn tadzik: Note you never need methods for the proto 11:54
(action methods, that is)
Just the candidates.
tadzik yes, I know that 11:55
when I say "prototype" I mean "the Pod6 module I wrote in Perl 6"
jnthn ah, I see :) 11:56
tadzik oh, I also have a funny List vs. Array issue, but that's not a blocker so I won't bother you now
jnthn k
jnthn tries to actually do some $dayjob stuff ;)
tadzik sorry for distracting you 11:57
11:57 mls left
jnthn it's fine :) 11:57
11:58 JimmyZ joined
JimmyZ good evening, #perl6 11:59
pmichaud good morning, #perl6
JimmyZ and .... good morning, pmichaud
jnthn o/ pmichaud, JimmyZ 12:01
moritz_ \o * 12:05
12:06 lichtkind joined
JimmyZ is having dinner 12:06
tadzik is having fun :) 12:09
12:11 nwc10 joined
nwc10 This might be the wrong time of day to ask this question. 12:11
As I understand it, subroutine parameters are read only by default
and you can pass an array or hash as a subroutine parameter
moritz_ nods 12:12
nwc10 "how" read-only does that make the hash or array? Is it shallow or deep? Does it just stop you changing the number of entries in the hash or array (no adding or removing) or does it create a recursively read only representation?
what, "nod, wrong time"? :-)
moritz_ nod, "you're right so far"
it's not recursive
pmichaud the readonly-ness is somewhat shallow, iiuc
moritz_ to the best of my knowledge, sub f(@a) { @a = ... } # forbidden 12:13
sub f(@a) { @a[0] = ... } # forbidden, but the compiler doesn't have to enforce it
@a[0].some-rw-attrib = "foo"; # allowed 12:14
jnthn There's a bunch of open questions in this area
dalek kudo/podparser: 13ce60f | tadzik++ | / (2 files):
Fix nested blocks, import more tests for that
kudo/podparser: 587360f | tadzik++ | t/pod/01-delimited.t:
Import more pod tests. We now fully pass 01-delimited.t
jnthn Basically, the more we try to enforce in a hard way at runtime, the more costly it gets.
nwc10 cool, you can stop answering now *if you want*
because that's already really useful
moritz_ nwc10: in the end, it will boil down to a compromise between performance and safety
nwc10 (was about to mail something to perl5-porters
)
moritz_ nwc10: only experimenting with the implementations will show what's feasible 12:15
jnthn is hoping that we can do enough detection of these things at compile time to cope
moritz_ nwc10: are you trying to port (parts) of signatures to Perl 5?
pmichaud I need to start remembering to 'git push' my local changes. :)
jnthn And not have to do any extra runtime checks
moritz_ pmichaud: if you don't, you'll have to rebase later :-)
nwc10 "port" may not be the right answer, strictly 12:16
moritz_ tadzik++ # podparser progress
nwc10: "draw inspiration from"? :-)
nwc10 Perl 5 is missing function signatures
we know that one of the key things is being able to have read only access to read write variables
and Perl 5 currently can't enforce read only on hashes and arrays 12:17
moritz_ (most of us know a decent bit of p5 too, fwiw)
jnthn nwc10: Nor can Rakudo.
nwc10 and then I was wondering "but what should be enforced, if we say it's read only?"
flussence if you want a read-only array, just subclass it with all the mutator methods replaced by {!!!} and in the signature put ($myarray as ReadOnlyArray). Or something.
moritz_ flussence: but that involves either a copy or a rebless
jnthn nwc10: If it's down to me, we'll do nothing about this at runtime, and detect the obvious cases statically 12:18
moritz_ flussence: but signature *binding* is, well, binding :-)
pmichaud well, in nom we might be able to enforce one level of ro-ness on Array when we have all of the container elements sharing the same descriptor.
jnthn nwc10: Here's the thing. Indexed access in Perl 6 is a method call
flussence (is there a cheap way of saying "be this object now"?)
jnthn And we agree that mutating method calls don't fall under the heading of what ro enforces.
moritz_ flussence: in p5, a rebless is relatively cheap, but probably not cheap enough to do it on every subroutine invocation 12:19
nwc10 raw arrays aren't blessed objects
moritz_ or maybe it is... I'm not sure
jnthn So in my book that means that @a[0] = 42 ==> @a.postcircumfix:<[ ]>(0) = 42
Is a method call
nwc10: Right, in Perl 5 that's the case.
nwc10: In Perl 6 everything but native types are essentially blessed.
flussence moritz_: I imagine it is, after all you're only relabelling a reference.
jnthn Anyway, to me there's no difference between @x[0] = 42 and $x.y = 42 in Perl 6 really, so any additional readonlyless is hard to enforce. 12:20
12:20 thou left
moritz_ hugme: list projects 12:20
hugme moritz_: I know about Math-Model, Math-RungeKutta, MiniDBI, bench-scripts, book, gge, hugme, ilbot, java2perl6, json, modules.perl6.org, november, nqp-rx, nqpbook, perl6, perl6-examples, perl6-wtop, proto, pugs, rakudo, star, svg-matchdumper, svg-plot, tardis, try.rakudo.org, tufte, ufo, web, yapsi
moritz_ hugme: add softmoth to november 12:21
hugme hugs softmoth. Welcome to november!
pmichaud jnthn: Array's at_pos method (which is what postcircumfix:<[ ]> uses underneath) can certainly do some relatively inexpensive ro checking, though.
jnthn pmichaud: I don't understand the container descriptor suggestion. 12:22
tadzik syntax hilighting is screwed when it comes to paragraph blocks :/
pmichaud jnthn: yeah, I'm not awake yet. ignore that one.
jnthn pmichaud: When we bind an argument it's the original thing, so same CD.
pmichaud: :)
nwc10 pull coffee, pause, *then* git push
tadzik oh wait, it isn't :) 12:23
pmichaud when you bind an argument, it's not *exactly* the original thing. it's a ro container referencing the original thing
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah. I'm mostly hopeful we'll be able to do enough compile-time analysis (probably in the optimizer) to optimize that away at some point. 12:24
pmichaud if we can multidispatch based on the ro-ness of the invocant, it can be fairly cheap.
moritz_ phenny: tell though thanks for the November pull request. I merged it, and gave you a commit bit - much easier in the long run than having to merge your stuff :-)
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when though is around.
jnthn moritz_: though or thou? :) 12:25
moritz_ oh.
jnthn Message thee correctly! 12:26
TimToady I still wonder whether we can get really cheap write capabilities by throwing a 1 bit into a ro pointer...
moritz_ phenny: tell thou thanks for the November pull request. I merged it, and gave you a commit bit - much easier in the long run than having to merge your stuff :-)
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when thou is around.
moritz_ phenny: tell though sorry, wasn't meant for you, please ignore the previous message
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when though is around.
nwc10 TimToady: can one combine the write-time check for "is this actually read only?" with a GC's write barrier code? 12:27
moritz_ that's something I wouldn't want to conflate 12:28
dalek kudo/podparser: 25cc743 | tadzik++ | / (3 files):
Parse paragraph and abbreviated blocks, import tests for those (everything passes)
 12:29
nwc10 Fair enough. It's just that I see two actions when writing that are both "stop, wait a mo, do I need to do something more careful here?" 12:30
12:30 mberends joined
tadzik 6 lines of code, 220 lines of tests :) 12:30
mberends o/ zebrae
tadzik hello mberends! 12:31
jnthn mberends: zebry of course :P
TimToady well, we've got the 1 bit and the 2 bit available in most pointers :)
jnthn TimToady: You're good at making assumptions about how malleable runtime environments will be. Good luck fiddling with 1 bit on CLR/JVM/v8 references... 12:32
TimToady and the 4 bit and 8 bit
I am aware of that issue :)
jnthn TimToady: More interesting is "how much can we figure out statically, so we can just get on with stuff at runtime" :) 12:33
TimToady just wondering how fast a native p6 can run
12:33 everbrew left
nwc10 v8 is already using (at least) 1 bit of pointers. If the video I watched about it is still valid 12:34
tadzik jnthn: what's the tiniest valid SixModelObject, close to Nil, or noop of some sort?
or maybe I don't need that
jnthn tadzik: Tiniest in what sense? 12:35
nwc10 I'm also suspecting that the only time you can go bit fiddling on pointers is if you are "native"
(and you don't need to use valgrind to debug your code)
jnthn I figure if you bit-fiddle you gotta to a bitop on your "pointer" to remove your fiddle every time you want to deref it too?
*do a bitop
tadzik jnthn: like when I have to pass a valid SixModelObject, I'm looking for some neutral element, like 0 in addition. But I can probably avoid cheats like that 12:36
jnthn tadzik: Mu? :)
mberends jnthn: while on unexpected vacation in Croatia, I've started work on 6model/c :-)
jnthn mberends: oh, nice :)
mberends: I'm curious how that'll turn out.
mberends: Recommend seeing nqp's sixmodelobject.h for the latest API 12:37
mberends jnthn: thanks, that's a useful tip. I hope a pull from 10 days ago is current enough. 12:38
nwc10 jnthn: yes, sort of. V8 was doing sick tricks by using bit 0 clear to mean integer, bit 0 set to mean pointer, and then storing "structure" offsets to things as +3 or +7 etc
tadzik moritz_: importing my t/04-end.t may be a bit tricky (having multiple =END declarators is doomed to fail :)), so how about I pass the spectests instead?
dalek kudo/nom: 8f7a4ec | pmichaud++ | src/core/Nil.pm:
Nil should stringify to '' without an "undefined" warning.
nwc10 IIRC from the Google video recorded a couple of years back, that I only watched recently.
could I just say:
The rate of work on NOM is really impressive now.
jnthn nwc10: sick tricks are sick :) 12:39
I'm sure we'll get there eventually :)
nwc10 jnthn: yes. and try to bite you
jnthn But I'm in no hurry.
Plenty of clean optimizations to go yet :)
dalek kudo/podparser: 74bfbe4 | tadzik++ | / (3 files):
Fix END block handling, we now pass S02-whitespace_and_comments/end-pod.t
 12:44
moritz_ tadzik: sounds good :-)
tadzik moritz_: and passes good :) 12:45
nwc10 thanks all
12:45 nwc10 left 12:46 masak joined
masak nom: role A { method foo(A $x) { say "from A!" } }; role B { method foo(B $x) { say "from B!" } }; class C does A does B {}; C.new.foo(A); C.new.foo(B) 12:46
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Method 'foo' must be resolved by class 'C' because it exists in multiple roles (B, A)␤current instr.: '_block2595' pc 34831 (src/gen/perl6-metamodel.pir:10742) (src/gen/Metamodel.pm:1031)␤»
masak nom: role A { method foo(A $x) { say "from A!" } }; role B { method foo(B $x) { say "from B!" } }; class C does A does B { proto method foo($x) { * } }; C.new.foo(A); C.new.foo(B) 12:47
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for ''. Available candidates are:␤␤current instr.: 'foo' pc 1087 ((file unknown):26427091) (/tmp/t_8OLW0AbK:1)␤»
masak jnthn: that should work, right?
jnthn masak: I think the proto forces those to become multi candidates. 12:48
masak: Needs a patch to RoleToClassApplier, if you're up for it.
masak: Or I'll get there in a bit :)
masak the should become multi candidates, that's the whole idea. 12:49
but it doesn't dispatch properly yet.
jnthn masak: no no
masak: They don't become multi candidates yet
:)
masak yes, we're in violent agreement, methinks.
jnthn masak: It's not a hard patch to write, anyway :) 12:50
masak I'll have a look at RoleToClassApplier, and then get back to you.
jnthn masak: Oh, you'll need a .is_multi or something
.multi I think we called it
masak given how *nice* everything with the MOP is becoming, I might even be able to do it without supervision.
ok, .multi
jnthn masak: Oh
masak I'll have a peek.
jnthn You already ahve it
.is_dispatcher I think 12:51
masak oh
jnthn masak: Read MultiMethodContainer.pm's incorporate_multi_candidates method
masak: It'll make it fairly clear how to find out if a method is a dispatcher or not
And how to add to its dispatch list
masak: All being well you're looking at a 3 or 4 line patch to make this work, I think :)
masak \o/ 12:52
I'm up to it.
12:52 fimgolfin left
masak s/to/for/ 12:52
tadzik nqp: say("foo" eq "foo" ?? 1 !! 0)
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
12:52 alim joined
masak nqp: say +("foo" eq "foo") 12:52
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in add_int()␤current instr.: '_block1000' pc 0 ((file unknown):1)␤»
jnthn masak: I think you're up to it too :P
masak jnthn: I don't know which preposition I am up it :P 12:53
moritz_ nqp: say ("foo" eq "foo").WHAT 12:55
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 1, near "say (\"foo\""␤current instr.: 'nqp;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 23666 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:6380) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤»
moritz_ ah
nqp: say(+("foo" eq "foo")) 12:56
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz_ nqp doesn't like listops
nqp: say(+("foo" eq "Foo"))
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«0␤»
12:56 xinming left
pmichaud jnthn: ping 12:57
12:57 drbean_ joined, xinming joined 12:58 REPLeffect left 12:59 MayDaniel joined
masak oh, right. 13:01
still, a Null PMC access for something that's essentially a syntax error?
it looks like it's parsing it into something, probably (say) + ("foo" eq "foo"), and then running it and failing.
jnthn masak: It's doing that 13:02
pmichaud: pong
masak: nqp has less hand-holding than Rakudo in various places
pmichaud jnthn: in nqp, how does one determine if an attribute has been declared int/num/str ?
I tried using .type, but I get a "cannot get_string()" error.
(.type on the attribute object, that is) 13:03
jnthn .type =:= int # should work
nom: say(int)
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«No method cache and no find_method method in meta-object␤current instr.: 'say' pc 342480 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:89324) (src/gen/CORE.setting:2937)␤»
13:03 REPLeffect joined
jnthn Yeah...natives don't know how to do much in nqp :) 13:03
pmichaud: You can get the name through the HOW 13:04
$obj.HOW.name($obj)
pmichaud yes, I got the name already.
jnthn nom: say(int.HOW.name(int))
pmichaud just need the type.
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«int␤»
pmichaud oh, you mean of the type
okay
jnthn pmichaud: No, I mean, the name of...right
pmichaud: But I'd use =:= int
pmichaud jnthn: trying that now
13:04 Holy_Cow joined
pmichaud awesome, that works. 13:06
masak reads '@!multi_methods_to_incorporate[+@!multi_methods_to_incorporate] := $todo;' and thinks "add a .push already!" :P 13:08
dalek kudo/nom: 1701cb2 | pmichaud++ | / (4 files):
Add Stringy role. prefix:<^> enforces numeric context. Another spectest file.
pmichaud now at 4,802 spectests
jnthn masak: There's a reason it's not a push 13:09
masak "#perl6: getting faster every year at rebuilding Rakudo"
tadzik 4,803 on podparser then :P
masak jnthn: oh, good. 13:10
jnthn masak: Though it's really an nqp auto-viv shortcoming
[Coke] Yah, if we count perl6 by the number of rewrites (over all implementations), what are we at now, 6.4? (just for the rewrites?)
masak jnthn: ah!
[Coke]: that has to depend.
[Coke]: there was the original perl6-on-parrot, the one before pmichaud came on. 13:11
jnthn masak: Suspect we fix it at some point but it probably means moving further from from Parrot-y types and more towards 6model-y ones
masak [Coke]: then there was Pugs.
[Coke]: then there was the second original perl6, aka alpha, on PGE.
[Coke]: then there was ng. now there's nom.
[Coke] masak: do we count the first pugs as a rewrite of perl6-on-parrot? up to you.
pmichaud there was a pre-alpha perl6 13:12
jnthn pmichaud: Was there one that used TGE?
masak [Coke]: but which ones are major versions and which ones are not (and yes, whether pugs should be part of that lineage) is very subjective.
pmichaud jnthn: yes
jnthn pmichaud: Whoa.
masak pmichaud: oh, right.
[Coke] and any big pugs rewrites? any for nie*
jnthn pmichaud: How far did that one get?
masak that was 2006-2007, no?
[Coke] masak: Do you think I'm asking for a definitive, line in the sand answer? no. ;)
pmichaud jnthn: that was the version of perl6 that existed just prior to the introduction of the original nqp and pct in 2007 13:13
masak [Coke]: I think Pugs had two or three major rewrites. it stalled during a fourth.
pmichaud alpha started in december 2007
[Coke] so we're closer to 10 than 5. ;)
masak [Coke]: I'm just outlining the richness of the answer to you :)
there should really be a good timeline somewhere with these details on it.
jnthn pmichaud: Ah, OK. TGE was long gone by the time I joined in, I think.
masak maybe even *gasp* on Wikipedia! 13:14
pmichaud or perl6.org
masak TGE feels like a nice idea that turned out to be horrible in practice.
tadzik nqp: say("foo\n".chomp)
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Method 'chomp' not found for invocant of class 'String'␤current instr.: '_block1000' pc 36 ((file unknown):35) (/tmp/oZudsTSVSb:1)␤»
tadzik hrm
jnthn masak: I seem to remember some compilers lecturer mentioning that academia mostly rejected attribute grammars for compiler dev long ago. 13:15
I suspect BEGIN mighta been hard if trying to treat the whole program as a tree too 13:16
And nom thoroughly does away with the notion that an AST can capture everything we need to know.
masak it does? 13:17
I thought it embraced ASTs more than previously.
tadzik nqp: my $a = "foo"; say("foo\n" ~~ /$a\n/); 13:18
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Assignment ("=") not supported in NQP, use ":=" instead at line 1, near " \"foo\"; sa"␤current instr.: 'nqp;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 23666 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:6380) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤»
jnthn masak: It builds an AST *and* a bunch of other objects.
tadzik nqp: my $a := "foo"; say("foo\n" ~~ /$a\n/);
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«foo␤␤»
13:18 Mowah left
masak I ran the spectests for nom. got a couple of failures for t/spec/S02-whitespace_and_comments/minimal-whitespace.t 13:21
[Coke] doesn't think wikipedia needs that timeline.
13:22 mberends left
masak [Coke]: no, maybe not. 13:22
pmichaud masak: yes, some bug has been exposed there... needs fixing and/or fudging
TimToady how am I supposed to backlog when you guys* talk so fast? *Californian for y'all, gender neutral 13:24
13:24 birdwindupbird left, birdwindupbird joined, birdwindupbird left, mj41 left
dalek kudo/nom: 0849b9d | pmichaud++ | t/spectest.data:
Some t/spectest.data note updates.
 13:25
13:25 Mowah joined
dalek p: 0108338 | pmichaud++ | src/core/NQPMu.pm:
Fix to .__dump for native attributes -- jnthn++.
 13:25
13:25 drbean_ left
TimToady and dalek talks faster'n anyone... 13:25
pmichaud dalek is just repeating things we've said out-of-channel :) 13:26
13:28 drbean left
TimToady sorear: re irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-07-07#i_4074310 I don't think the -> form of .subst is necessarily unportable, in the sense that any impl could detect whether the replacement is a unary closure and pass $/ to it; but yeah, it's not to current spec 13:29
arnsholt jnthn: Attribute grammars sound a bit like unification-based grammars 13:31
TimToady related to the .subst issue, I've wondered whether it'd make more sense to say that blocks only get their own $_, and $! and $/ are shared by everyone in the routine 13:32
then we wouldn't have to worry about the collision of importing an outer $/ vs clobbering $/, and whether those are bindings or assignments 13:34
and blocks might start up a bit faster if they don't have to worry about $! or $/ specially 13:35
jnthn TimToady: I already figured out handling those lazily anyway 13:36
TimToady 'course, on the flip side, that might turn some blocks into closures that might otherwise not have referred to any external lexicals
jnthn (in nom)
TimToady that was my next suggestion :)
moritz_ nom: say 1 ... 5, 6, 7
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'ACCEPTS'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu, Mu $topic)␤␤current instr.: 'ACCEPTS' pc 354002 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:94357) (src/gen/CORE.setting:227)␤»
moritz_ wow, (Mu, Mu) didn't fit? :-) 13:37
TimToady but there's still the setting $/ issue from within .subst
jnthn TimToady: Yeah, that's the really tricky one
moritz_: Maybe somehow too many args passed
moritz_ jnthn: seems like
jnthn moritz_: Oh
TimToady kicking $/ out of blocks would kinda solve that
jnthn moritz_: Also 13:38
moritz_: That candidate is in Mu and only handles the :U case
iirc
TimToady and $! has similar reasoning
moritz_ jnthn: the problem is likely the the sequence generator tries to smart-match against all the items on the RHS, not just against the left-most 13:39
jnthn TimToady: It makes the optimizer's life easier too I expect
TimToady anyway, it's something I've been thinking about off and on for some time now 13:40
jnthn nom: 1 ~~ (1,2,3)
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'ACCEPTS'. Available candidates are:␤:(Mu, Mu $topic)␤␤current instr.: 'ACCEPTS' pc 354002 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:94357) (src/gen/CORE.setting:227)␤»
jnthn moritz_: ^
13:40 tokuhirom joined
moritz_ nom: sub s($right) { my @right := ($right,).list; my $endpoint = @right.shift; say $endpoint.perl }; s 1, 2, 3 13:40
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 3 but expected 1␤current instr.: 's' pc 452 ((file unknown):26852858) (/tmp/tHlGbQTwYO:1)␤»
moritz_ nom: sub s($right) { my @right := ($right,).list; my $endpoint = @right.shift; say $endpoint.perl }; s (1, 2, 3)
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«(1, 2, 3)␤»
moritz_ that's how the problem is triggered 13:41
pmichaud: ^^
TimToady sorear: I'd also like to get your input on the idea of kicking $! and $/ upstairs into the routine's scope
13:41 wamba left
moritz_ pmichaud: that's what makes t/spec/S03-sequence/basic.t bail out 13:41
TimToady from a programming perspective, it means that if you want to temporize $! or $/ to a block, you have to use 'temp' 13:42
or maybe just declare 'my $!' or 'my $/'
that seems like a good tradeoff for simplifying blocks
the other possible downside is that a thing like .subst can't just assume CALLER::<$/> will be there 13:43
it would have to treat it like an ordinary dynvar 13:44
hmm, that could be wrong too
13:45 whiteknight left
TimToady it needs to find the caller's lexically visible $/ 13:45
well, maybe CALLER::<$/> does the right thing, and starts the lexical search from the caller 13:48
13:48 acrussell joined
dalek kudo/podparser: 12097c5 | tadzik++ | t/pod/04-code.t:
Handle code blocks properly, import 04-code.t
 13:48
tadzik don't pull! 13:49
dalek kudo/podparser: 571755c | tadzik++ | / (3 files):
Handle code blocks properly, import 04-code.t
tadzik ok, no one saw this :)
TimToady saw what? 13:50
tadzik my secret Jedi powers, specifically "Force Push"
TimToady I always ignore dalek, except when I don't.
tadzik I can understand that
13:50 wamba joined
pmichaud moritz_: ... was written before we had Positional available, so it needs an update. I'll do that here shortly. 13:51
TimToady pmichaud: you may have an opinion or two about $! and $/ as well 13:52
masak happy discovery: in a signature, '@a where 2' means 'an array @a with length 2'. spread the word. :)
13:52 Gothmog_ left
TimToady well, sure, it's just a smartmatch 13:52
masak yes, I know how it works :)
pmichaud TimToady: I'm letting $! and $/ stew in my brane for a bit.
masak I'm just claiming the patent rights...
pmichaud my gut really likes the idea of a per-routine $! and $/ though. 13:53
TimToady and I'm just claiming it was obvious
jnthn Quick! Somebody find prior art!
:)
moritz_ lazily points towards S0d 13:54
masak goes looking, interested 13:55
13:55 Gothmog_ joined
pmichaud I don't think the CALLER::<$/> in .subst is likely to be a blocker... we already need to sort out exactly how to handle $/ in that situation as well. 13:55
as far as looking at a caller's entire lexical scope -- I'm already doing that for lexical returns. 13:56
so there's a bit of prior art there.
masak moritz_: neither S06 nor S12 mention doing @array where $some_int 13:57
I don't think there's prior art in the application cheese, either.
moritz_ masak: they mention <some_variable> where <literal>, iirc. That's enough for me :-)
masak snorts at the lack of respect for this new discovery :)
moritz_ masak: I do apologize :-) 13:58
masak I'm not saying it's original, or very creative. I'm saying it's never been done before.
pmichaud I respect this new discovery enough to use it blatantly and liberally without paying any patent license royalties on it. :)
masak dang :P
TimToady rakudo: multi foo (2) { say "Two-ness!" }; foo(<bacon bits>) 14:00
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'foo'. Available candidates are:␤:(Int where (2))␤␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/fdaLYKvcQc␤»
TimToady aww
rakudo: multi foo ($ where 2) { say "Two-ness!" }; foo(<bacon bits>) 14:01
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«Two-ness!␤»
masak files his first patent infringement complaint :)
tadzik . o O ( masak submits patentobug ) 14:02
TimToady rakudo: multi foo ($ where 1+1) { say "Two-ness!" }; foo(<bacon bits>)
jlaire masak: are you sure your claims where general enough to cover '$' lhs
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«Two-ness!␤»
pmichaud 13:41 <moritz_> that's how the problem is triggered
TimToady works around the patent issue
pmichaud I don't quite see the relationship there.
moritz_ pmichaud: that's how &SEQUENCE extracts the $endpoint 14:03
pmichaud: which ends up being the whole list, not just the first item
masak jlaire: no I am not, but that's what the legal system is there for.
pmichaud 13:40 <moritz_> nom: sub s($right) { my @right := ($right,).list; my $endpoint = @right.shift; say $endpoint.perl }; s 1, 2, 3 14:04
oh, I see.
okay.
14:04 wamba left
jnthn TimToady: Note that multi foo(2) { ... } is not multi foo($ where 2) { ... } 14:04
jlaire although, even a uselessly narrow patent can be used to scare people who don't read what it actually covers 14:05
jnthn TimToady: It's like multi foo(Int $ where 2) { }
TimToady yes, I giffered that out
moritz_ from S03/Smart matching/: Any Callable:($) item sub truth X($_)
jnthn TimToady: Turns out it's gotta be like that, otherwise if you write a fib(0), fib(1) and fib(Int $n) set of candidates, things wouldn't work out so well :) 14:06
moritz_ X($_) or ?X($_) ?
nom: say 3 ~~ -> $x { say $x; $x } 14:07
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«3␤3␤»
14:07 Holy_Cow left
pmichaud rakudo: say 3 ~~ -> $x { say $x; $x } 14:07
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«3␤Bool::True␤»
dalek kudo/podparser: 40859e6 | tadzik++ | / (2 files):
Fix comment block parsing, add tests
 14:08
pmichaud I'm inclined towards nom's interpretation, fwiw.
moritz_ too
TimToady eh? that doesn't make sense 14:09
nom: say 0 ~~ -> $x { say $x; $x }
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«0␤0␤»
TimToady that would be false?
moritz_ sure
TimToady hmm, I guess it would
nm
jnthn :)
TimToady someone musta snuck some decaf into the caf this morning 14:10
jnthn
.oO( strangely consistent with if foo() -> $x { ... } ? :) )
moritz_ discovers that S03-smartmatch/any-sub.t doesn't test what the author probably thought it would test
TimToady but, but, we trigger that behavior on the return type of boolean
masak I'm reading old p6l archives. did you know that at some point back in 2005, 'self.foo()' was spelled './foo()'? :)
TimToady oh, it's the return type of -> duh 14:11
jnthn masak: yes
14:11 wtw left
jnthn masak: iirc htat's why we ended up being able to put args on $.foo(...) 14:11
moritz_ never witnessed that syntax
TimToady pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
jlaire masak: TimToady called it 'shellishly' cute
iirc
masak :P
pmichaud many of us thought the initial 's' should be dropped from 'shellishly' 14:12
14:12 spq1 left
jlaire hehe 14:12
jnthn lol
masak that was also the first debate where I piped up, expressing my language design opinion.
granted, it was just au++'s opinion, copied. but still...
jnthn I seem to remember somebody saying, "It's cute. Can't we keep it?" :)
TimToady I never remember who stood up for which side, which is probably a mercy... 14:13
jlaire 2005, uh... I must've been following Perl 6 for quite a while
jnthn was only looking on from a distance in 2005 :) 14:14
I understood about a third of what I read on p6l
TimToady too
jnthn
.oO( Some things never change... :) )
TimToady wonders if there's some way to turn 'decont' into 'decant'... 14:15
14:16 kaare_ joined
TimToady and how a cantainer differs from a container 14:16
masak well, I argued for .foo() always meaning $_.foo(). because an intermediate proposal wanted to mix up .foo() into meaning either self.foo() or $_.foo(), depending.
jnthn oh no, not the "where does the invocant go" threads!
masak TimToady: a 'cantainer' is what you eat from in a 'cantine' :)
TimToady if you remember that, I'll bet you hold grudges too :P 14:17
[Coke] canonttainer.
*n
pmichaud I figure that a cantainer is just .^methods, since that determines what an object "can do" :-)
jnthn TimToady: I forget all the details of those discussions. Or maybe suppressed the memories :)
pmichaud jnthn: the lack of a working REPL is getting a little painful. :/ 14:19
TimToady
.oO(is jnthn++ suppressing the memories of a working REPL?)
 14:20
14:20 wamba joined, spq1 joined
jnthn pmichaud: I spent a little bit on that this morning while doing the various other fixes. 14:21
pmichaud: Didn't get to the bottom of it, then had to look at $dayjob. I'll return to it later today.
pmichaud okay, just wanted to bump the priority slightly. :)
masak oh! it was Juerd++ who suggested the ./ syntax.
jnthn pmichaud: Don't worry, it annoyed me no end this morning too :)
pmichaud "later today" is fine. "in the next week" is fine, too, just know that it hurts a little. :) 14:22
TimToady we want it to annoy you end :)
jnthn :P
masak: If only I'd not been too shy to troll the thread with "as I Windows user I demand .\foo works too!" :) 14:23
s/I/a/
tadzik any way to convert a String to an Int in nqp?
moritz_ jnthn shy? what did I miss?
pmichaud tadzik: +
moritz_ nqp: say( +"123")
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«123␤»
tadzik oh, cool. Thanks
14:23 JimmyZ_ joined
masak jnthn: :) 14:23
tadzik that'd be a parrot int, or a SixModelObject?
jnthn moritz_: I was...quite quiet back then :)
moritz_ ... execpt that it's a num, not an int
TimToady I believe jnthn++ is mistaking 'shy' for 'civil'
masak I wonder how soon after 2005 we got the $.foo() syntax... 14:24
jnthn :)
pmichaud tadzik: it's a num.
jnthn tadzik: It'll be a Parrot object
tadzik: If you're in nqp
tadzik: Didn't manage to eradicate those yet.
So, Float PMC.
tadzik ok, so I need to add it to a symboltable anyway 14:25
dalek ast: a71a764 | moritz++ | S03-smartmatch/any-sub.t:
change S03-smartmatch/any-sub.t to test what it is supposed to test, IMHO
jnthn The circularity sawing there is gonna hurt a bit when we try to reall resolve it.
*really
pmichaud it's a num
jnthn pmichaud: N register?
pmichaud it doesn't become a Float until you do something PMC-ish with it.
Yes, N register.
jnthn pmichaud: Oh. Call doesn't imply boxing in NQP?
OK
pmichaud there's no Call.
jnthn pmichaud: say
dalek kudo/nom: 3aa3352 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
two more passing test files
pmichaud okay, the say() implies a boxing, yes. 14:26
but not the prefix +
jnthn ok
Makes sense.
pmichaud token prefix:sym<+> { <sym> <O('%symbolic_unary, :pirop<set N*>')> }
jnthn suspects that the NQP circularity saw involves two settings...
pmichaud I actually think it's just going to Work Out. 14:27
TimToady A City of Two Tales
pmichaud the circularity saw may end up being a singularity that collapses on itself.
jnthn pmichaud: We rely a LOT on Parrot PMCs to do our circularity sawing at the moment.
pmichaud: I couldn't do that in nqpclr so had to solve the various circularities there in other ways 14:28
14:28 JimmyZ left
masak ah, in Feb 2006 we got $.foo() 14:28
14:28 JimmyZ_ is now known as JimmyZ
jnthn Apart from I didn't do compile time meta-objects in nqpclr so it was less hard. 14:28
pmichaud yes, I know, but I think we'll be able to ultimately eliminate those dependencies, as opposed to having to emulate them.
masak that's about half a year later.
jnthn pmichaud: Sure, I'm just saying it won't be entirely trivial :)
TimToady the problem with using parrot as a circularity saw is that it collapses to a rather massive singularity... 14:29
jnthn TimToady: Yeah, I don't see doing so as desirable really. It's just where we are at the moment.
pmichaud TimToady: right, which is why I think our answer will end up avoiding the Parrot-ness altogether. 14:30
that didn't come out right
TimToady someone should write a VM called 'turtles' 14:31
pmichaud our answer won't involve Parrot PMCs for resolving the circularities. Indeed, I think it'll just end up being natural/native to 6model
I think that part of the reason we have to involved Parrot PMCs now is because of PCT/PAST. Once we've converted that to nqp, a lot of the boxing issues go away.
TimToady it's always nice if you can get the circularity to hide itself behind a rarely visited abstraction 14:32
jnthn pmichaud: I dunno if you read it, but github.com/jnthn/6model/blob/maste...Setting.pm
pmichaud: That is the closest idea we have yet of what 6model all the way down looks like.
pmichaud ouch 14:33
jnthn The trick is attributeless objects.
pmichaud those nqp:: opcodes hurt my head.
14:33 wolfram joined
pmichaud is that pseudocode or real code there? 14:33
jnthn pmichaud: It's real running code on the clr
pmichaud: It's also 6+ months old.
pmichaud okay, so those aren't the nqp:: codes we recently started 14:34
okay
jnthn pmichaud: e.g. it pre-dates having nqp:: in any "official" sense by months.
pmichaud I'll look at it more closely
jnthn pmichaud: The "is repr" bits are the key
pmichaud right
jnthn pmichaud: Looking over it, I can see a bunch of areas where it may well chance today too
pmichaud right
jnthn s/chance/want to change/ 14:35
as in, things I'd do differently with hindsight
pmichaud anyway, I need to get back to more concrete tasks for now :)
jnthn Me too :)
EPERL6TOOINTERESTING
jnthn tries to crank out at least a little more $dayjob stuff :)
TimToady SIGWORK
14:36 mj41 joined, wamba left
wolfram An urge to have hashes that remember element creation order just possesses me again in perl 5. Will those be easier to have in perl 6? 14:37
14:37 am0c left
TimToady everything will be easier eventually... 14:38
wolfram Sure
masak wolfram: I expect you'll be able to subclass Hash eventually.
wolfram: with a custome .STORE method, you could do what you want.
moritz_ but notice that getting such a thing right is rather tricky 14:39
where by "right" I mean "consistent and fast under all possible operations"
masak sure.
colomon any hints on how to call a custom in rule by name in a regex in one of the current p6 implementations?
14:40 Trashlord left
pmichaud "custom in rule" ? 14:40
moritz_ s/in // probably
colomon moritz_++
14:40 moritz_ is now known as moritz
pmichaud need more context. 14:40
in Rakudo, it's just <customrule> 14:41
wolfram masak: that sounds like there are still a number of NYI on the way there?
colomon say $line if $line ~~ /<dec_number>/;
gives me Method 'dec_number' not found for invocant of class 'Cursor' in rakudo
pmichaud I suspect subclassing Hash in nom is possible today.
14:41 Trashlord joined
flussence anyone want to port Tie::IxHash? 14:41
moritz you need GrammarContainingClass.parse($line, :rule<decnumber>) for now 14:42
phenny moritz: 06 Jul 02:27Z <jnthn> tell moritz in BackTrace you put subname and subtype into the BackTraceLine but not the actual Sub object itself, which would seem more general. Any reason why not?
colomon that's after "our token dec_number"
pmichaud colomon: aha
that's an unresolved spec issue
TimToady nom: class MyHash is Hash {}; my %foo is MyHash; %foo<a b c> = 1,2,3; say %foo<b>
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«2␤»
TimToady \o/
pmichaud say %foo.WHAT
moritz currently <&dec_number> should work, but not capture
colomon \o/
pmichaud it's still a Hash I bet.
14:42 mj41 left
TimToady nom: class MyHash is Hash {}; my %foo is MyHash; %foo<a b c> = 1,2,3; say %foo.WHAT 14:42
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Hash()␤»
pmichaud colomon: you need to do it with a lexical.
TimToady /o\ 14:43
pmichaud nom: class MyHash is Hash {}; my $foo = MyHash.new; $foo<a b c> = 1,2,3; say %foo.WHAT; say %foo<b>
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Symbol '%foo' not predeclared in <anonymous> (/tmp/hnbZEj4EK6:1)␤current instr.: 'parrot;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 146 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:107)␤»
pmichaud nom: class MyHash is Hash {}; my $foo = MyHash.new; $foo<a b c> = 1,2,3; say $foo.WHAT; say $foo<b> 14:44
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«MyHash()␤2␤»
pmichaud \o/
masak \o/
wolfram: there you go. it's possible, but only in the future :)
TimToady nom: class MyHash is Hash {}; my %foo := MyHash.new; %foo<a b c> = 1,2,3; say %foo.WHAT
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«MyHash()␤»
TimToady nom: class MyHash is Hash {}; my %foo := MyHash.new; %foo<a b c> = 1,2,3; say %foo<b>
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«2␤»
masak does nom do tailored .STORE on Hash subclasses, too? 14:45
pmichaud if you define a STORE, it uses it.
wolfram masak: o.k. but some of it works already. Thanks all for the demo!
moritz nom: class MyHash is Hash { method STORE(|$) { say "in store" } }; my %h := MyHash.new; %h<foo> = 'bar'
p6eval nom: ( no output )
masak nom: class MyHash is Hash { method STORE { say "OH HAI" } }; my $foo = MyHash.new; $foo<a b c> = 1, 2, 3; say "alive"
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«alive␤»
masak apparently not.
pmichaud you're not using MyHash's STORE there, though.
masak ah. 14:46
pmichaud STORE is for storing the entire hash, not a single element.
masak rightright.
pmichaud you probably need to overload at_key
masak ah, yes.
moritz nom: class MyHash is Hash { method at_key(|$) { say "in store" } }; my %h := MyHash.new; %h<foo> = 'bar'
14:46 alim left
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«in store␤Cannot assign to a non-container␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 128 ((file unknown):89) (/tmp/eIPosor0C1:1)␤» 14:46
14:46 wamba joined, alim joined
tadzik masak: how about some S26 doubts? 14:46
wolfram IRC might not be for me. You can type faster than i can read...
tadzik moritz: you're invited too :) 14:47
basically, I'm wondering whether the =foo in abbreviated blocks and =for foo in paragraph blocks should be considered an opening delimiters, and thus, whether they should allow the implicit code blocks inside 14:48
wolfram One of the few cases where I whish I learned to type with more that 2 fingers ;-)
14:48 birdwindupbird joined
moritz wolfram: you can still learn it 14:48
tadzik because if they do, "=item foo" makes foo a code block, which is LTA 14:49
TimToady and I didn't learn to skim until I started reading Usenet...
pmichaud TimToady: How long ago was that? ;-)
wolfram moritz: yes, but for other things (like coding) it is no problem because I still spend far more time thinking than typing
pmichaud remembers using 'rn' in 1988.
TimToady back in the Fourth age of Middle Earth
*Age 14:50
moritz wolfram: it makes a huge difference. Believe me. 14:51
TimToady the main thing is you can type in the dark :)
pmichaud has a new backlit keyboard. :)
colomon rakudo: "this is a test".subst(m/ \s. /, -> $m { say $m }).say 14:52
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«Method 'match' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/W4GyPHTRPA␤»
colomon rakudo: "this is a test".subst(m/ \s. /, -> $m { say ~$m }).say
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«Method 'match' not found for invocant of class ''␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/kvVGgQuzQh␤»
dalek kudo/nom: c12b7cc | pmichaud++ | src/core/List.pm:
Fix test for $!items in List.munch().
kudo/nom: 5fac548 | pmichaud++ | src/core/operators.pm:
Improve list handling in sequence generator.
pmichaud moritz: 5fac548 gets us closer to passing S03-sequence/basic.t ... now we're blocked on junctions (the one() Junction)
TimToady m// returns a Match, not a Regex
try rx// instead 14:53
jnthn ah, junctions :)
masak tadzik: sounds like one of these "what does your heart tell you?" issues
pmichaud jnthn: is the junction dispatcher available/working yet?
colomon TimToady++
pmichaud I might stub in a Junction implementation
tadzik masak: I'm based, for I have tests to pass :P
s/based/biased/
TimToady colomon: the error message is admittedly LTA 14:54
tadzik but I'll still go with my heart
colomon TimToady: I wasn't even getting an error message in my code, that was my attempt to golf my issue.
TimToady that will probably be a recurring trap for recovering P5 programmers 14:55
so .subst could have a multi that recognizes the situation and says something meaningful
or just dwims it into .from and .to 14:56
but that wouldn't work with :g
well, it could be forced to work by deriving a new cursor from the .to, I suppose 14:57
masak tadzik: well, you can't go wrong, then.
jnthn pmichaud: Junctions are currently NYI 14:58
TimToady also assuming the Match can get back to the original Regex for rematching purposes...
jnthn pmichaud: Like, at all
pmichaud jnthn: okay.
I'll stub in a Junction class
jnthn pmichaud: I mean, there are some hookers left over from the previous implementation
pmichaud even if it doesn't dispatch properly yet, we can start doing stuff with it.
jnthn pmichaud: But not re-wired to nom things
14:58 wolfram left
jnthn pmichaud: So will need to revisit those. 14:58
pmichaud will it ultimately need to be in BOOTSTRAP.pm? 14:59
jnthn pmichaud: I dunno.
pmichaud (well, not ultimately, but intermediately)
I'll leave it out for now.
jnthn pmichaud: oh
pmichaud: It needs registering with types.c
pmichaud I'll just create the basic class for now, we can integrate it with other stuff as we get to it.
tadzik masak: well, I can actualy. Parser migrated to nom gave different test results, due to around-test environment
jnthn pmichaud: And we can only do that by having it on BOOTSTRAP.pm for now
pmichaud: Sure, do whatever bits you wish. I'll fill in the gaps ;) 15:00
*:)
masak tadzik: interesting.
tadzik: were the differences significant in any way? I mean, did the tests just break or were they arguably wrong in the first place?
tadzik still, I decided to go with my heart _and_ make the tests pass :)
now when I look at it, the tests are wrong 15:01
15:01 birdwindupbird left, birdwindupbird joined
tadzik but that doesn't make the results (primary) wrong 15:02
masak tadzik++ # heart _and_ tests 15:03
TimToady perl6: say ([1,2] Z [*,*]).perl 15:05
tadzik that could be a nice life meaphor, or a motto
p6eval niecza v7-14-gbad54f1: OUTPUT«([1, 2], [Whatever.new(...), Whatever.new(...)]).list␤»
..rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«(1, Any, 2, Any)␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«((1, Inf), (2, Inf))␤»
TimToady I believe niecza++ is correct here 15:06
[] should not flatten in a list
perl6: say (1,2 Z *,*).perl
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«(1, Any, 2, Any)␤» 15:07
..niecza v7-14-gbad54f1: OUTPUT«(1, Whatever.new(...), 2, Whatever.new(...)).list␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«((1, Inf), (2, Inf))␤»
pmichaud nom: say ([1,2] Z [*,*]).perl
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«((1, Whatever<70133968>), (2, Whatever<70133768>)).list␤»
TimToady I think that's wrong
pmichaud Z doesn't produce parcels?
oh, it shouldn't be flattening. 15:08
TimToady Z is a list infix, so takes two lists, but [] is a single item to Z
pmichaud right
I agree, that's wrong.
15:08 daniel-s joined
pmichaud nom: say (([1,2],) Z ([*,*],)).perl 15:08
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«(([1, 2], [Whatever<80656192>, Whatever<80655992>]),).list␤»
[Coke] bar used rn in... 89? 90?
s/bar/Coke// 15:09
tadzik nom: say Mu.defined
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
pmichaud nom isn't quite sure how to cast its arguments in LoL context yet.
tadzik nom: say Mu.new.defined
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
tadzik eek?
is that correct? 15:10
TimToady well, why not?
tadzik hmm, so it's only undefined as a type object?
nom: say Int.defined
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
tadzik hmm
15:11 JimmyZ_ joined
TimToady nom: say Int.new.defined 15:11
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
tadzik so type objects are undefined
TimToady yup
tadzik okay, I get it
pmichaud jnthn: is Mu.new/bless/build "working" yet? 15:12
tadzik I think it is. My Pod classes in the setting have their default .news and initialize attributes properly
TimToady my $ocrates = Man.new;
tadzik even those inherited
15:13 JimmyZ left
TimToady "undefined" in P6 really means more like "uninstantiated" 15:13
sorear good * #perl6
15:14 JimmyZ joined
sorear yikes a lot of backlog. 15:14
masak sorry...
moritz rakudo: say (1...()).WHAT
masak g'* sorear
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«Failure()␤»
15:15 JimmyZ_ left
moritz nom: say (1...()).WHAT 15:16
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
pmichaud old version of Nom.
moritz nom: my $x := 1...(); say $x.WHAT
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
pmichaud nom needs rebuild 15:17
moritz nom: say ((1...*) Z ('a' ... 'z')).much(5).perl
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Method 'much' not found for invocant of class 'List'␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 136 ((file unknown):42225793) (/tmp/nFK0VM17wp:1)␤»
pmichaud pmichaud@kiwi:~/nom$ ./perl6
> my $x := 1...(); say $x.WHAT
List()
moritz nom: say ((1...*) Z ('a' ... 'z')).munch(5).perl
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«elements() not implemented in class 'Mu'␤current instr.: 'munch' pc 378230 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:0) (src/gen/CORE.setting:2228)␤»
pmichaud moritz: nom needs rebuild
moritz evalbot rebuild nom
p6eval OK (started asyncronously)
moritz pmichaud: yes, I understood :-)
pmichaud okay, just checking.
jnthn pmichaud: (new/bluess/BUILD) more working than master :) 15:18
pmichaud: It even gets defaults right as of this morning.
pmichaud jnthn: gist.github.com/1069743 # what am I missing?
jnthn pmichaud: That nom follows the spec, and master didn't. 15:19
pmichaud: Only public attrs are allowed to be initialized from the default constructor in current spec.
pmichaud ah, that's what I'm missing.
jnthn (OK, I think master's way of doing it was what led to the spec coming to say that only publics get init'd) 15:20
pmichaud: Solution is easy
pmichaud so, to initialize a private attribute I do...?
jnthn submethod BUILD(:$!type) { }
pmichaud \o/
jnthn Should work.
masak it was after a discussion on p6l about breaking encapsulation and data hiding. 15:21
the one where Damian had a strong opinion.
jnthn ah :)
TimToady guesses that 'only submethod BUILD($!type) should work by current spec on named-to-positional binding
jnthn TimToady: ew. 15:22
TimToady: Maybe.
TimToady and not work without the only
jnthn TimToady: I wasn't sure to what degree the new spec applied to methods.
TimToady: I'd read "only subs" into it.
But maybe shouldn't have.
TimToady the intent is that it apply to methods too 15:23
certainly BUILD is on the hot path
sorear jnthn: why shouldn't @a = ... be allowed for rw arrays? It's just like @a.STORE(...) 15:24
TimToady and doesn't need to be ditzing around with checking positionals for named if it doesn't need to
sorear jnthn: *ro arrays
TimToady and in any case, submethods are really more like subs when it comes to invoking them
jnthn TimToady: Not really
TimToady: It's still a dynamic dispatch 15:25
Whereas subs are statically linked.
sorear: I didn't mean to argue that it shoudln't be allowed
sorear: I was more arguing that if we are going to catch such things, we do it statically
Rather than burdening runtime with it.
TimToady submethods could just be subs, I think, if we disallowed the 'nextsame' nonsense, and hardwired the default BUILD into BUILDALL 15:26
dalek kudo/podparser: 48ed49c | tadzik++ | src/Perl6/SymbolTable.pm:
[SymbolTable] Ignore undefined parameters in cache key, saves a lot of "Use of uninitialized value in string context" when passing :name(Mu)
kudo/podparser: 3a828b7 | tadzik++ | / (4 files):
Parse lists properly, makes 06-lists.t
kudo/podparser: 0fda6ab | tadzik++ | t/pod/04-code.t:
Follow the decision about disallowing implicit code blocks in abbreviated and paragraph blocks in 04-code.t
TimToady might makes sense from a performance perspective... 15:27
tadzik jnthn: feel free to disagree with 48ed49c6fb, I'm not sure about this one
jnthn TimToady: fwiw, nom already makes a BUILDPLAN at class composition time, in which it figures out all the BUILDs it would need to call
TimToady which it could call as subs? 15:28
jnthn TimToady: Also, it doesn't actually have a Mu.BUILD. It works out what public attrs would be initilzied if there's an arg for them and just inlines it.
TimToady: Well, "inlines"
TimToady "outlines" :)
jnthn TimToady: Essentially, nom's BUILDALL is a little interpreter with 3 opcodes
TimToady: But yes, it's like a sub invocation 15:29
Apart from the lookup is pre-done
tadzik does t/spec/S02-whitespace_and_comments/minimal-whitespace.t fail in nom?
jnthn So it's really just invoking a code ref :)
sorear jnthn: what do you mean by handling $/ lazily? 15:30
TimToady wonders if BUILDALL is a macro method...
I assumed it meant install lazily in the lexpad, but I could be wrong 15:31
sorear TimToady: I think restricting $/ to routines only is a lovely idea. I've added a note on that to my TODO
TimToady maybe we should try to do that in next release(s) and see how it pans out
pmichaud jnthn: feel free to restrict $/ creation to Routines in nom :) 15:32
TimToady and $!
pmichaud (since I'm dealing with regexes there anyway)
jnthn sorear: What TimToady said
But life just got easier there :) 15:33
pmichaud: add to nommap
15:33 daxim left
dalek kudo/nom: ecc173b | pmichaud++ | NOMMAP.markdown:
Add NOMMAP note about $/ and $!.
 15:34
TimToady now, if $! contains the last exception, to think about how CATCH really wants to a loop over @! containing all unhandled exceptions, semi-independent of $!
s/to a/to/ 15:35
15:35 alim left
sorear pmichaud: any progress on the my token / <foo> issue? 15:36
TimToady we haven't specced anything on it
15:37 daniel-s left
sorear now caught up to the backlog *when I joined*... 15:37
TimToady still debating in my head whether the current lexical scopes can function as an implicit grammar subclass...
masak what's the thinking behind restricting $/ to routines? I think I missed the discussion part. 15:38
pmichaud sorear: I'm waiting to see what TimToady++ comes up with on my token / <foo>. I might experiment with some things in nom once we have regexes going there again. 15:39
15:39 espadrine` joined
TimToady masak: see irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-07-07#i_4075877 and following 15:39
15:40 mj41 joined
TimToady implicit there was the notion that it gives the user more control of the scoping as well, since they can always restrict with a 'my $/', but have the option of having $/ or $! factored out to check after any conditional structure 15:41
masak TimToady: ok, reading that, it feels like an immediately good idea to do this with $/ and $! 15:42
TimToady in current specland that's not easy
masak I'm undecided/clouded over as to whether it's a good idea with $_
TimToady not proposing it for $_
masak oh, ok.
at 13:32 you were :)
TimToady no I wasn't 15:43
I was saying that $_ stays the same
pmichaud masak: reread it :)
TimToady poorly
pmichaud the "and" is a loose and 15:44
masak argh :)
TimToady *saying poorly, not reread it poorly :)
ingy o/
masak TimToady: I read that as "anyone who doesn't read properly is forced to reread it, poorly" :P
ingy! \o/
ingy where is the shelter?
tadzik in the ecosystem recently :)
ingy hi masak! 15:45
masak what, the collapse has started?
ingy tadzik: where is the ecosystem?
tadzik ingy: github.com/perl6/ecosystem/tree/master/SHELTER
ingy ta
tadzik nom – Files=166, Tests=4570; podparser – Files=167, Tests=4571 15:46
:)
15:46 JimmyZ_ joined
ingy tadzik: where did my sheltered modules go? 15:46
TimToady they disintegrated in the harsh radiation 15:47
ingy ?
tadzik ingy: they don't need to be in the SHELTER now, they have their META.infos in their repos. SHELTER keeps META.infos of modules that don't have their own
15:47 espadrine` left
ingy sorry, just a bit lost. so where do all the GoodModules go? 15:48
or where are they referenced?
tadzik github.com/perl6/ecosystem/blob/ma.../META.list
ingy (it's been a while since I sprinted on your track :) 15:49
moritz META.list
in the 'ecosystem' repo
ingy to misquote TimToady++
15:49 JimmyZ left, ab5tract left, JimmyZ_ is now known as JimmyZ
ingy tadzik: got it. ta! 15:50
15:50 ab5tract joined
tadzik ta? 15:51
ingy bets patch patched them
sorear *whew*
tadzik yeah, I think so
ingy thank you (in ozzie)
that's where I picked it up anyways
sorear jnthn: niecza does $/ installation lazily... and it causes a lot of problems 15:52
jnthn: I'd like to know more about how you're doing it
ingy everyone going to YAPC::EU raise their left hand 15:53
o/
tadzik o/
pmichaud don't know yet if I'll be able to go to YAPC::EU -- still working on travel funding.
TimToady ö/
pmichaud but I have a talk accepted. :)
ingy pmichaud++
sorear *not* going.
ingy damn!
I really wanted to meet teh sorear 15:54
sorear :( 15:55
colomon: ping
JimmyZ we would like to see TimToady will go to BJPW next year :)
ingy just started working with #activestate++ again. They are helping me fund yapceu in return for impersonating Gisle Aas.
BJPW? 15:56
sounds dirty
moritz Beijing Perl Workshop 15:57
15:57 kaare_ left
JimmyZ and pmichaud too, if he is pleased 15:58
pmichaud I'm always happy to present at workshops and conferences; it only depends on availability of time and travel funding :) 15:59
jnthn hopes they put next BJPW in winter or something :)
JimmyZ well, travel funding is not a problem
pmichaud summer BJPW is about the same as summer DFW, so no difference there for me :)
JimmyZ: then I'll be glad to attend!
JimmyZ I think the problem is availability of time 16:00
pmichaud generally that's not an issue for me :)
jnthn pmichaud: Yeah, guess you're more used to that kinda weather. 16:01
JimmyZ jnthn: Shenzhen is much more hot than beijin
pmichaud: I'm glad that you are pleased
jnthn JimmyZ: Oh my... :)
JimmyZ: It would kill me. :)
JimmyZ jnthn: )
:)
pmichaud temperatures this week have been 37+ all week 16:02
(here in DFW)
jnthn pmichaud: Humidity?
pmichaud don't know... not too bad for humidity though.
JimmyZ wow, here is about 32 all week
pmichaud not nearly as bad as Houston or Corpus Christi.
jnthn pmichaud: ah, OK. In Beijing it was > 90% sometimes. 16:03
pmichaud jnthn: yeah, that's about like Houston or Corpus Christi then. :)
masak ingy, tadzik: as far as I know, 'ta' comes from British English. that's not to say other parts of the Commonwealth don't use it a lot too :) 16:04
masak decommutes 16:05
16:05 masak left
colomon sorear: pong 16:05
colomon is not sure how he missed being notified of the ping by his software, considering he's been sitting at the computer for an hour... 16:06
16:10 wolfman2000 left
sorear pmichaud: temperatures seem to be ridiculous all across the USA 16:10
pmichaud sorear: I agree, but 37+ is pretty normal for this area in July.
it's at least not abnormal
16:11 Mowah left
sorear colomon: the patch seems fine per se, but it's making me think about how to make multiple dispatch performance suck less 16:11
pmichaud I am a little worried about later in July/August though... if it's this hot this regularly this early in the summer... later summer may be really bad for us.
colomon sorear: as in multi subs/methods, you mean? 16:12
sorear yes
colomon in terms of my patch, would optional parameters (instead of multi) be an improvement, then? 16:13
(not that I want to stop you from optimizing multis!)
sorear a performance improvement, yes, but the semantics aren't quite the same. 16:14
I'm wondering if it makes sense to special-case multiple dispatch where the candidates are distinguished by arity.
16:15 ab5tract left
dalek kudo/nom: 7d4d042 | pmichaud++ | / (3 files):
Initial implementation of Junction type.
 16:15
kudo/nom: 15ec618 | pmichaud++ | src/core/ (6 files):
Refactor .gist to more closely match the spec.
kudo/nom: b4d5e56 | pmichaud++ | src/core/Junction.pm:
Add Junction.ACCEPTS.
kudo/nom: 5f00dbc | pmichaud++ | NOMMAP.markdown:
Add Junction dispatch to NOMMAP.
pmichaud Those commits give us basic Junction support in nom. As long as you aren't doing something with autothreading, it should work out okay. :-)
jnthn woo :) 16:17
colomon sorear: that's an interesting question. naively, it seems like most likely the times it would come into play would mostly be ones where the "extra" parameters are basically optional. I don't have a feel for the performance trade-off there.
pmichaud although I bet jnthn++ will have junction dispatch and autothreading implemented in about... 5 min. 16:19
:D
16:19 daxim joined
moritz after all he has done it several times, iirc :-) 16:19
16:20 JimmyZ left
pmichaud jnthn: we can convert the $!storage attribute to be an RPA or a List if that's easier at some point... I just did it as an Array here for quickness/simplicity 16:21
moritz nom: my $a = 3; say "$a".WHAT 16:22
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
moritz I believe we've fixed this before too... :-)
16:22 mj41 left
pmichaud jnthn: it's probably safe to use the $!items attribute of $!storage if you just want to get the RPA that way 16:23
afk, lunch
16:24 peczenyj joined
[Coke] pmichaud: I voted your travel grant up, but haven't seen the comment show up yet. 16:24
peczenyj perl6: say 4;
p6eval pugs, rakudo 72d158, niecza v7-14-gbad54f1: OUTPUT«4␤»
pmichaud [Coke]: thanks. I didn't even realize that had been posted yet :) 16:25
peczenyj perl6: say ^5
p6eval pugs, rakudo 72d158, niecza v7-14-gbad54f1: OUTPUT«01234␤»
16:25 prammer left
TimToady nom: say ^5 16:25
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«0..^5␤»
[Coke] news.perlfoundation.org/2011/07/hag...ravel.html 16:26
dalek ast: ba9a5d4 | moritz++ | S0 (2 files):
various rakudo (un)fudges
[Coke] (looks like several folks here have +1d it)
16:27 ab5tract joined
moritz nom: say say(1, 2, 3 ... 10)[*-2].WHAT 16:28
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10␤Failure()␤»
moritz nom: say say (1, 2, 3 ... 10)[*-2].WHAT
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Int()␤Bool::True␤»
[Coke] should --gen-parrot in nom resolve parrot before it resolves nom?
er, s:2nd/nom/nqp/
(since nqp needs parrot to build?)
pmichaud [Coke]: it first gets nqp to find out what version of parrot to build, then builds parrot, then builds nqp 16:29
[Coke] dizzy! ok. ;)
16:29 Mowah joined
pmichaud (since the version of parrot needed can be affected by --gen-nqp=...) 16:29
afk, lunch 16:31
16:31 TBA2 left, TBA2 joined 16:32 wamba left 16:34 everbrew joined
dalek ecza: 981a202 | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/ (2 files):
Implement sin, Complex.Complex.
 16:40
ecza: 4c894a7 | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/ (2 files):
Add ln/log and exp.
16:40 am0c joined
moritz colomon: btw, is ln spec? 16:41
16:42 wamba joined, wooden joined
[Coke] perlcabal.org/syn/S32/Numeric.html # doesn't look like it. 16:43
16:43 prammer joined
jnthn [Coke]: Added my +1 too 16:43
colomon ln is not spec, it's just terribly, terribly convenient for implementing log
moritz colomon: in nom, I've justed used the single-arg form of log() as ln(), and used it to implement the two-arg form 16:45
colomon: I know that didn't work out well in master, because we subclassed the parrot Float PMC which had its own log() method 16:46
dalek kudo/nom: 1e4b69a | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
three more passing test files
 16:47
colomon probably the "right" way to do it is to have single argument log be the equivalent of ln, and double argument log call single argument log. but then there's the multi versus optional parameter thing going on again.
moritz I like log better as a multi
the reason is that if you write multi sub log($num, $base = e) { ... } you have to take care of the $base even if it wasn't supplied 16:48
16:48 jevin_ joined
colomon moritz: sure, but you could also do log($num, $base?) 16:49
agreed for sure that $base = e is a loser
TimToady similar reasoning to the trig simplifications 16:50
moritz colomon: that's what the multi with two arguments is for 16:51
16:51 Holy_Cow joined
moritz multi sub log($num) { use VM's primitive for ln here }; multi sub log($num, $base) { log($num) / $log($base) } 16:51
sorear the problem with $base? is that you cannot destinguish between not-supplied and undef 16:52
moritz I find the current log setup in nom quite satisfactory
colomon moritz: I'm saying you just do sub log($num, $base?) { $base ?? log($num) / log ($base) !! VM primitive } 16:53
though sorear's point is an interesting one... 16:54
so by spec, say, log(323, Cool) should be an error, but the $base? version would treat it as no $base specified. 16:55
moritz I think it doesn't really matter all that much, because we can't do anything sensible with a base of 0 or udnefined
hm, right
16:55 tokuhirom left
[Coke] I'm confused - if we use multis, why have a 2-arg with the second optional arg? 16:56
(we'd just have a single-arg and a 2-arg variant)
moritz [Coke]: it's either multis or a single routine with optional second arg
[Coke]: we're discussing the merits of either approach 16:57
[Coke] ah. I misread it as a combination of the 2. ;)
colomon part of the question is, what is the relative performance hit of the two approaches?
TimToady which will, of course, depend on how ferocious your optimizer is 16:58
sorear it will only make a difference when passing &log to a higher-order function
I'm definitely going to make multi-subs-by-arity handled at compile time 16:59
TimToady one can always do &log.assuming
moritz and for methods
16:59 Holy_Cow left
sorear with the current niecza runtime code, optional-argument will win by a wide margin 16:59
moritz nom: say NaN 17:00
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
sorear multiple dispatch is a bit underspecced atm; during candidate sorting, given A < B, B < C, A < D, are D and B tied? 17:01
TimToady well, in the abstract, dispatching to multiple candidates is one of those constraint matrix logic problems like rosettacode.org/wiki/Dinesman%27s_m...ng_problem
17:04 birdwindupbird left
TimToady I suspect no-known-relation should be considered a tie 17:04
unless anyone can see a good reason not to 17:05
moritz the more I hack in the setting, the more convinced I am that methods need to default to :D
TimToady alternately, we do something arbitrary like we did for constraints
moritz on the invocant
(or whatever we are going to call it in the end 17:06
just take a look in src/core/Complex.pm - basically every method in there is wrong, unless I add a :D to the invocant 17:07
wolverian hrm, iTerm 2 changes the font for all the following lines after the symbol after the NaN in p6eval's output. guess it's back to Terminal.app 17:08
17:09 MayDaniel left
moritz wolverian: maybe it's not correctly configured for UTF-8? 17:10
wolverian sorear: it is set to UTF-8.
[Coke] looks like we're now at 4830 passing tests in nom.
wolverian I suppose the character replacement strategy hits a bug
(assuming Menlo doesn't have that character) 17:11
17:11 dakkar left
TimToady moritz: one thing that might help is that if a proto enforces :D the multis don't have to 17:12
moritz TimToady: I still think it's way easier to default to :D 17:13
TimToady: and manybe warn if a method call new() doesn't override the default
17:13 cdarroch joined, cdarroch left, cdarroch joined
TimToady then people will forget to change it in their constructors 17:13
such a warning would be a hack 17:14
moritz ... and find their error as soon as they call the constructor
TimToady just playing devil's advocate
moritz instead of having a hidden error in their code base
TimToady we could make people say Just Dog all over :) 17:15
moritz I don't buy the "such a warning would be a hack" argument. We do that all the time with deprecation warnings, forbidding empty <> etc.
so we are not above such hacks if it helps the user
TimToady SIGTRUE
[Coke] nom: my @a=(1,2,3); say [+]@a; 17:16
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«6␤»
[Coke] std: my @a=(1,2,3); say [+]@a;
p6eval std 37a0cdd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/c6jFUiwwuP line 1:␤------> my @a=(1,2,3); say [+]⏏@a;␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤
..prefix_circumfix_meta_operator…
[Coke] std: my @a=(1,2,3); say [+] @a;
p6eval std 37a0cdd: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 123m␤»
pmichaud whydoprogrammersavoidwhitespacebetweentokens? :-) 17:17
TimToady if we did that we might have to exempt .can from checking :D-ness
moritz True, I didn't think of that 17:18
TimToady otherwise we can't reason about our types very well
colomon moritz: I wandered away, but I agree on defaulting to :D, I think
sorear niecza: my @a=(1,2,3); say [+]@a 17:19
p6eval niecza v7-14-gbad54f1: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: assigning to readonly value␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 0 (STD C632_ANON @ 0) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1989 (STD P6.termish @ 6) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 4492 (STD C1896_ANON @ 5) ␤ at …
moritz though .can on the type object is a fragile thingy anyway 17:20
TimToady yes, well, and all of Platonism... :)
sorear niecza: my @a=(1,2,3); say [+] @a
p6eval niecza v7-14-gbad54f1: OUTPUT«6␤» 17:21
sorear strange
TimToady I'd just like to not make our platonism any fragiler than it needs to be...
17:22 Holy_Cow joined
TimToady there's something going on here of the form "Just call into this thing, and if you hit a roadblock, take a suspension and wait for a real invocant" 17:22
17:22 Holy_Cow left
TimToady like calling into something using a type object automatically treats it as generic in some sense 17:23
like a type object intrinsically has some "whateverness" to it 17:24
17:24 _jaldhar left, _jaldhar joined
sorear what does [ x || y || <!> ] mean? 17:25
TimToady x or y or fail?
sorear how does it differ from [ x || y ] ?
sorear wonders why [+] is parsed as a PRE and not as a term 17:26
std: [+]« 1, 2, 3
p6eval std 37a0cdd: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
sorear what does that mean?
TimToady it would presumably be expecting a list for each argument 17:27
sorear I don't think that makes any sense 17:28
hyperops are recursive
so [+] would never see a list
17:29 wolfman2000 joined
pmichaud I'm getting nom fails in S03-sequence/basic.t 17:30
sorear [+] would make much more sense as a list prefix operator, imo
moritz did I forget to push the roast fudges
?
hm, seems not
pmichaud I got some of them
sorear rather than a prefix
moritz pmichaud: did you update roast?
sorear TimToady, comments?
pmichaud moritz: yes.
colomon sorear: list prefix operator?
pmichaud let me try again
sorear colomon: like how subs parse
TimToady sorear: sure, I already think of them as listops 17:31
moritz pmichaud: sorry, I forgot to commit, not just to push :K-)
jnthn sorear: Just drew the DAG to check. In your example, tie groups are A, BD, C
dalek ast: 0df5744 | moritz++ | S03-sequence/basic.t:
fudge basic.t for rakudo
sorear jnthn: why BD and not BC?
jnthn sorear: B < C so we can never remove B and C from the DAG in the same "bunch" when top-sorting. 17:33
TimToady on some level, if two actual types are unrelated, it doesn't matter which order you do them, since the dispatches on the types are exclusive; but this breaks down for roles that can be mixed in I suppose
jnthn sorear: After we remove A, B and D have no outgoing arrows so they're both elligible for the next group. 17:34
sorear: Which just leaves C for the final group. 17:35
TimToady but you don't know the relative lengths of the arrows... 17:36
jnthn TimToady: Right, but that's not relevant. 17:37
'tis just a DAG. 17:38
dalek kudo/nom: a05e994 | pmichaud++ | src/core/Whatever.pm:
Let Whatever.gist return '*' instead of 'Whatever<...>'. Perhaps Whatever.Str should do something similar.
 17:39
17:47 daxim left
sorear niecza: any([1],[2],[3,4]).[*-1].perl.say 17:50
p6eval niecza v7-16-g4c894a7: OUTPUT«any(1, 2, 4)␤»
17:52 Kivutarrr joined 17:58 lue left 18:00 rjbs joined
rjbs Hi. I was just confused by doing this: my $x = [1,2,3]; my %y = { $x => 1 }; 18:00
I expected to get a hash with $x as a key. How do I actually get that?
pmichaud I don't think Rakudo really supports non-string keys in hashes yet. 18:01
(I could be wrong about that)
colomon rakudo: my $x = [1,2,3]; my %y = { $x => 1 }; say :%y.perl 18:02
pmichaud also might need to be my %y = ( %x => 1 )
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«"y" => {"1" => 1, "2" => Any, "3" => Any}␤»
pmichaud er, $x
colomon: huh. That looks really wrongish to me.
rjbs That's what I got in the repl, btw.
colomon rakudo: my $x = [1,2,3]; say ( $x => 1 ) .perl
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say ( $x ="␤» 18:03
colomon rakudo: my $x = [1,2,3]; say ( $x => 1 ).perl
18:03 mj41 joined
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3] => 1␤» 18:03
colomon interesting....
pmichaud sure, Pairs work
but Pairs don't have hash keys
rakudo: my $x = [1,2,3]; my %h = ( $x => 1 ); say %h.perl
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«{"1" => 1, "2" => Any, "3" => Any}␤»
rjbs Also what I got.
pmichaud I don't know what rakudo is doing there.
nom: my $x = [1,2,3]; my %h = ( $x => 1 ); say %h.perl 18:04
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«("1 2 3" => 1).hash␤»
rjbs So, while what rakudo is doing is, um, neat... :) ...is the syntax that I used *destined* to work?
pmichaud better, but I'm not happy about the hash key being stringified
rjbs p.s., you guys have the best bost
pmichaud rjbs: there will be a way to do it, yes... but might need a specialized hash declaration
rjbs bots
pmichaud let me review the spec
rjbs Thanks much. 18:05
[Coke] zomg, it's rjbs.
rjbs Yeah, I still live.
I might want to ask you guys about ~~ sometime soon.
[Coke] I'm still cowering.
rjbs I have been railing about it on p5p, and I wonder whether you actually find value in some of the weirder default cases like @a ~~ %b
pmichaud from S02: "The key type of a hash may be specified as a shape trait--see S09. 18:06
(looking in S09)
from S09: 18:07
To declare a hash that can take any object as a key rather than just a string or integer, say something like:
my %hash{Any};
my %hash{*};
this is absolutely NYI in Rakudo afaik
but the language defines how it will look, at least :)
TimToady as for smartmatches, it's not really a big deal in p6, since that just means %b.ACCEPTS(@a) 18:08
we don't have to do any introspection, which tends to be evil 18:09
pmichaud I haven't seen any code that actually uses @a ~~ %b yet, no.
TimToady if you want to rail against something, rail against the lack of a real type system in p5
pmichaud (so I don't know if there's value in it or not :-)
rjbs TimToady: *all over it* 18:10
TimToady nearly all the mess in smartmatching comes from that
rjbs TimToady: Yeah, the behavior of ~~ in general in p6 is much better. Mostly, I wondered whether the default behavior for (say) Hash is ever useful.
TimToady: I'm not sure I agree with that statement, though.
TimToady for instance, all the boolean cases just fall out of having a Bool type
18:11 mj41 left
rjbs Smartmatch in p5 suffers from over complicated design plus buggy implementation plus half-hearted grammar changes. The lack of typing is only annoying gravy on the annoying steak. 18:11
TimToady well, it's just a design decision, if Hash.ACCEPTS is going to mean anything, what would a user want it to mean
rjbs TimToady: Right. My feeling in evaluating that question so far has been "too hard to predict" 18:12
TimToady I think it's the other way around, where the typing is the steak :)
rjbs I described it to mjd recently as "it's like there's a table and we *had to* fill in all the boxes."
TimToady that's what tends to lead to the other problems
rjbs I recently proposed a simplified ~~ dispatch on p5p in which the only valid RHS are code, qr, and object with ~~ overload. 18:13
[Coke] +1 on that, btw.
rjbs This gets you the .ACCEPTS behavior with obvious-to-user behavior.
[Coke] <-- p5p lurker.
rjbs but it eliminates @array or %hash on rhs, because guessing what the user will mean is too hard
TimToady er, you left out the most important ones, string and number 18:14
rjbs The suffering we get from not being able to have Scalar in there without num/str being clear is a big fat bummer, though.
I left them out on purpose. Typing makes them a nightmare.
So instead you say ($x ~~ num(4))
TimToady it's usually easy to tell the literals apart, which is by far the most common use case 18:15
esp in a switch
rjbs TimToady: I will throw that out and see what is said.
I don't know enough about the guts to argue for or against. If we can make it work only for literals, that would be nice. 18:16
I agree that with a literal, what the user means is obvious. 18:17
TimToady certainly in a C switch statement, you'll never see anything *but* literals :)
rjbs [Coke]: thanks :)
TimToady and that's what I think of as the baby in the bathwater 18:18
rjbs TimToady: One use case that I really like is passing around a variable as a predicate. So, &foo expects ($aref, $predicate) and you pass in ([...], $coderef)
18:18 thou joined
rjbs Passing in C< 5 > there is harder, sadly. 18:18
TimToady the main reason for making it an assymetrical operator is so that we could force the comparison semantics at compile time
rjbs which is one reason I didn't think much about literals 18:19
TimToady yes, we use that heavily in things like grep
and all our 'where' clauses are smartmatching
rjbs I'd be really wary of allowing that to be passed in, in p5, because somebody adds: warn "DEBUG: got predicate $p" 18:20
and now it might be a string; oops
TimToady having an optional num() that strips any string caching would be useful at times
Tene fwiw, I've used @a ~~ %b at least once
rjbs I've talked with some guys about adding a "strict type" layer, where you can get an IV that won't stringify without the safeword.
TimToady well, that's another design flaw of p5 I can blame on myself
rjbs Tene: Was it in the test suite? :)
TimToady I should have made that cache the string without raising it to the same type level 18:21
so it still "knows" it's a num
18:21 impious joined
Tene rjbs: no, in code for work. Lemme see if I can find where it was, though... 18:21
rjbs TimToady: Maybe someday you can work on something that doesn't make those mistakes, but makes new and better ones!
TimToady but it comes down to sloppy types again
now there's an idea. :)
18:21 Bzek left
rjbs TimToady: Yeah. I'm really hoping I can write up a set of tests for being stricter. Also, rurban has talked about somewhat similar work. 18:21
Tene Hmm.... I'm not seeing it now. Maybe it wasn't for work after all... 18:22
18:22 alim joined
rjbs The lack of num/str types is a huge problem, for sure. Still, I'll take Perl 5 without those over Python 3 with them any day. 18:22
18:22 Bzek joined
TimToady but I do think that retyping scalars so they have more memory of their original intent, and making cached values second class, would probably be a win 18:22
rjbs I wonder if nobody suggests that now because it's too much work or because they're too close to the code for it to occur to them. 18:23
TimToady it might be as easy as expanding the type table, where some of them are aliases to the same struct
I'd guess the latter, with perhaps an unawareness that Larry already said Oops about it :) 18:24
rjbs carlmasak recently tweeted something like "a slow p6 is cool; a fast p6 is a gamechanger; we will soon have one" 18:25
Was that nom or something from the skunkworks?
[Coke] I'm assuming nom. and I'd say "faster", not "fast".
TimToady it's nom, but masak was misreading a benchmark by an order of magnitude 18:26
[Coke] wonders where masak is!
rjbs Okay!
That's why I asked, having seen the numbers.
TimToady so it's 10 times slower than fast :)
Tene [Coke]: probably sleeping, if I remember his time zone right.
18:26 masak joined
masak \o/ 18:26
rjbs but at least it knows the difference between a num and a str
[Coke] do we have benchmarks comparing nom to master to p5?
18:26 alim left
[Coke] Tene: HA! 18:26
[Coke] thinks it's only ... like... 2100 or something where masak is. 18:27
masak yes, I was misreading a benchmark by an order of magnitude.
but that didn't have much to do with the tweet.
I'm still mighty impressed by nom and the possibilities it entails.
rjbs: I don't think any Perl 6 implementation will ever come within a factor of 2 compared to Perl 5. and I'm fine with that. 18:28
TimToady I do
masak YMMV
18:29 estrabd joined
TimToady You might have to write in the C subset of Perl 6 for that, but it'll happen :) 18:29
masak rjbs: I sincerely think that the speedups will make more people interested in Perl 6, and I wager-ish that nom will be part of that.
TimToady or more likely the Go subset
masak TimToady: still half a decade away or so, though.
TimToady I think the future will be unevenly distributed 18:30
masak even in the future, the future is unevenly distributed!
Tene ... why did you have to say that? I already have plans for this weekend. I don't want to cancel them to work on a go backend for Perl 6 instead. :P
TimToady the sprixel subset already way outpaces P5
jnthn masak: What was the benchmark you misread, ooc?
masak jnthn: my own, the one with the MMD ackermann.
jnthn masak: ah
masak jnthn: it's in a recent gist of mine. want me to fetch it?
jnthn masak: sure 18:31
masak: I'm curious how many orders of magnitude of Perl 5 we were in that example.
*off
masak 1.5
rjbs masak: I think that if people are told "we are actually going to release a fast Perl 6" and then get a 10% (is that right?) speedup, they will be let down.
but I do agree that the faster it gets, more people may be interested 18:32
masak rjbs: I don't want to over-hype nom in any way. jnthn suggested that the real speedups will come this fall, with the optimizer. so I'll probably hold back when nom releases.
TimToady well, in general I think nom has been running about five times faster than master, though that ain't sayin' a lot
rjbs I'm not the best test, anyway. I can barely find time to learn the fast, resume-building languages that interest me.
[Coke] chromatic is also still working on making parrot faster in his spare time.
rjbs That sounded promising as well. 18:33
masak rjbs: it makes me really happy that the general discourse has moved from "Perl 6 doesn't exist" to "Perl 6 is too slow".
rjbs: I'm also happily surprised by how much that tweet fires people up, in a good way.
[Coke] rjbs: (language that interest me) I'm stuck doing ColdFusion most of the day, I sympathize. ;)
rjbs masak: That's how we feel about: from "Perl 5 is dead" to "Perl 5 is meandering"
masak :)
that's a blog post in itself :P
Tene I still prefer "Perl is undead" 18:34
masak braaaaaaains
rjbs [Coke]: How awful is it, really? Compared to say PHP?
jnthn How much faster nom is depends on the benchmark you do, of course. I've seen figures from "couple of times faster" to "20 times faster" depending on benchmark.
18:34 wolfman2000 left
Tene That, combined with the velociraptor logos, makes perl users into archeologist necromancers. 18:34
18:34 whiteknight joined, impious left
masak jnthn: whaaa? it depends on the benchmark? is there any way to fix that? :P 18:34
jnthn masak: :P 18:35
TimToady sure, put exit at the top of every benchmark
masak supposes that the only ways to fix that are to make nom infinitely fast or infinitely slow
[Coke] rjbs: it's really not that bad. Like many languages, it's possible for hacks to generate truly horrible horrible code, but of course I don't do that. ;)
rjbs Yes, pick a single consistent benchmark. I suggest (sleep 7 - $[) 18:36
TimToady masak: no, no, just learn from the human factors people, and make it always take 5 seconds to get an answer, even if it was computed in .00002 seconds
[Coke] heh.
to both TimToady & rjbs.
rjbs once got a complaint that "Acme::ProgressBar works well, but it's so SLOW"
TimToady I think rjbs's is funnier 18:37
not sure what happens when we get to Perl 8 though...
rjbs That's when all those quantum superpositions will come in handy.
TimToady actually, I'm pretty sure what happens with Pelr 6 18:38
*Perl 6
rjbs Perl *
TimToady perl6: sleep 7 - $[
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "["␤ expecting "::"␤ at /tmp/_m3ol246WT line 1, column 12␤»
..niecza v7-16-g4c894a7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at /tmp/ngL5Nmuxb0 line 1:␤------> sleep 7 - ⏏$[␤␤Non-simple variables NYI at /tmp/ngL5Nmuxb0 line 1:␤------> sleep 7 - ⏏$[␤␤Any()Confused at /tm…
..rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<[ ]>, couldn't find final ']' at line 22␤»
TimToady that's what happens :)
masak we haven't talked too much about the plans for Perl 8.
Perl 7 and Perl 9 come up far more often.
rjbs I was often amused by Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (Alien Crossfire), in which there was a 22nd century computer programmer whose bio blurb noted her expert in C**.
diakopter joins #perl8
rjbs masak: I hadn't heard anybody mention Perl 9. 18:39
masak diakopter! \o/
rjbs Is that just Perl 6 writen in upside down Unicode?
TimToady it's from Outer Space
masak rjbs: really? Gloria Wall has even promised that there won't be one, in some interview or other.
rjbs of course it is
flussence .u UPSIDE-DOWN NUMBER 6
phenny flussence: Sorry, no results for 'UPSIDE-DOWN NUMBER 6'.
flussence :(
TimToady Perl ᵷ 18:40
that one goes upside down
sjohnson ilooks like an upside down cursive "g" 18:41
TimToady which is what it is, so you can turn it upside down 18:42
flussence (it annoys me that there's an entire unicode block dedicated to "mathematical symbols" that are just alphanumerics in half a dozen typefaces...)
rjbs Blame the mathematicians. 18:43
sjohnson it annoys me that "trollface" isn't part of unicode yet
masak I'm fine with that omission.
rjbs I wish we had a COMBINING DOUBLE VERTICAL LINE
for making a proper $
flussence .u 20b4 18:44
phenny U+20B4 HRYVNIA SIGN (₴)
flussence (almost)
sorear hello masak, rjbs.
flussence (well, if you squint and tilt your head a bit...)
waaaaaait. 18:45
.u 20e6
phenny U+20E6 COMBINING DOUBLE VERTICAL STROKE OVERLAY (◌⃦)
diakopter #!/bin/perl
use AnyEvent;
use AnyEvent::Curl::Multi;
use File::Slurp;
use HTTP::Request;
use File::CounterFile;
use Time::HiRes qw( gettimeofday tv_interval );
rjbs sorear: ahoy
diakopter #$| = 1;
my $conc = $ARGV[0];
18:45 ChanServ sets mode: +o sorear
diakopter my $target = $ARGV[1]; # 172.25.19.48 18:45
my $duration = $ARGV[2];
18:45 diakopter was kicked by sorear (diakopter)) 18:46 diakopter joined
diakopter hey, I apologized 18:46
rjbs flussence: hm!
flussence you deserved that for putting perl in /bin/ :)
18:46 sorear sets mode: -o sorear
TimToady that's why I have my paste limit set to 1 line :) 18:46
rjbs flussence: I wonder why I didn't see that before.
diakopter sigh
masak hugs diakopter 18:47
diakopter finds paste_verify_line_count
sjohnson heh 18:48
rjbs Ｓ⃦
TimToady hugme: hug everyone who deserves it, and diakopter too
hugme hugs everyone who deserves it, and diakopter too
sjohnson （　｀ー´）
rjbs Okay, thanks folks. I will return another time, I'm sure.
18:48 wamba left
masak rjbs: thanks for dropping by! 18:49
18:49 rjbs left
masak TimToady: the nice thing about hugs is that they can work on a very cross-deserve basis 18:50
sorear masak: I hear you had issues with 2.6.7 18:51
masak sorear: hm, yes. but it's a while ago, so I've garbage-collected what exactly was wrong...
sorear: I vaguely remember building from source. I might even have succeeded doing that.
masak checks
sorear masak: moritz had an issue with non-clean rebuilding after a pull 18:52
masak yes, it seems that I now have Mono 2.10.2
so we can assume that all my problems with 2.6.7, if there ever were any such, are fixed :)
diakopter anyone know how to set paste_verify_line_count while irssi is running?
flussence /set paste_verify_line_count :) 18:53
masak sorear: yes, I have a working niecza-7 \o/ 18:54
sorear std: foo@a 18:56
p6eval std 37a0cdd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/NJcOmCYADn line 1:␤------> foo⏏@a␤ expecting any of:␤ POST␤ argument list␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ postfix␤ postfix_prefix_meta_operator␤ statement modifier
..loop␤Undeclared …
18:58 wolfman2000 joined
tadzik good evening zebry 18:58
pmichaud aiiiie I leave the keyboard for 40 minutes and there's pages of backscroll!!! 18:59
thou o/ tadzik 19:02
phenny thou: 12:26Z <moritz_> tell thou thanks for the November pull request. I merged it, and gave you a commit bit - much easier in the long run than having to merge your stuff :-)
tadzik thou: o/
everyone: please test the podparser branch :) 19:03
pmichaud (speed of nom) -- my goal at this point isn't "as fast as p5", it's more of "fast enough that you're willing to accept slower-than-p5 because you value other attributes of p6 more"
that said, we are seeing 4x-5x speed improvements in nom versus master in a lot of core areas 19:04
if raw speed was really the only factor, we'd probably all be C programmers or something like that.
masak what pmichaud said. 19:07
when I said "fast" in the tweet, I actually didn't mean "Perl 5 fast".
I meant something like "no longer unbearably slow for some things". :)
I believe, for example, that we will see an upswing in Web stuff after nom lands. simply because it'll be a niche that opens up. 19:08
moritz++ # merging thou's pull request
thou++ # working on November
thou: I'd like to support you in any way I can. please let me know if there's anything I can do. 19:09
thou thanks
masak thou: I thought it might be nice to throw November up on the web again, for example.
I think I still own the domain and everything.
thou yeah, i understand it's gonna be slow; hopefully nom will help w/ that soon.
sorear *ahem* 19:10
masak :)
sorear feels overlooked, I see.
sorear: has November ever run on Niecza?
thou i don't want to branch out my thinking too much beyond getting it running on rakudo master :-) 19:11
masak makes sense.
sorear masak: no 19:12
masak maybe someone'll start a "December" project, that runs on Niecza, learned from the lessons of November, and sits on top of some Dancer-like web framework or other.
everbrew pugs: my $test = 1..10; say $test.shift; 19:13
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«1␤»
everbrew rakudo: my $test = 1..10; say $test.shift;
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«Method 'shift' not found for invocant of class 'Range'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/svy9sSnjxv␤»
everbrew scratches his head 19:14
moritz everbrew: ranges are immutable, iirc
everbrew: what are you trying to do?
everbrew Poking around in perl6-examples
moritz ah, much of that is out of date :( 19:15
everbrew I'm learning a lot of things about perl6 by out of date examples :)
moritz maybe I should remove the link from perl6.org until somebody fixes them up
everbrew rakudo: my $test = @(1..10); say $test.shift;
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«1␤»
everbrew I can always make it work 19:16
there's several things on the perl6.org/documentation page out of date 19:18
or incomplete, or otherwise tried and failed (I'm good at finding all the unhelpful docs) 19:21
pmichaud everbrew: want a commitbit? We'd love for you to fix them.
everbrew: or if you point out the errors, I'm sure one of us will be glad to attack it.
note that my @test = 1..10; say @test.shift works fine 19:22
nom: my @test = 1..10; say @test.shift
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«1␤»
everbrew that wasn't the example given by the original committer ... that's the approach I took in my implementation 19:24
19:26 mberends joined
masak mberends! \o/ 19:26
mberends o/ masak! So much backlogging to do, and so little time! 19:29
masak mberends: news: I've now seen the Eiffel tower. it's not much besides what one sees in the pictures. 19:31
moritz masak: did you climb it? 19:32
mberends masak: :) it looks a bit nicer when parts of it are under your feet
moritz it does get more impressive when you're on top
pmichaud I elevatored the Eiffel tower once.
moritz iirc you can only use the elevator up to the 2nd level, you have to walk to the 3rd 19:33
mberends pmichaud: wise move, literally
pmichaud that was 13 years ago for me, I think, so I don't remember how high up it went. :)
But I was in the tower of the Paris hotel in Las Vegas just a couple of years ago. No stairs there. :)
masak I figured the elevator might help. I also figured it'd not be worth the queueing without good company :) 19:35
pmichaud Ah yes, I had extremely good company with me (fiancee') when I visited the Tower. :) 19:36
19:36 cooper joined, cooper left
pmichaud or maybe we were already married then. Don't remember exactly what year that was. :) 19:37
19:37 cooper joined
moritz discovers with horror that he has no entry for security.debian.org in his sources.list 19:37
mberends masak: the Masak organic composting system v1.1 now has about 100 litres of plant matter doing nicely :)
masak \o/ 19:39
moritz a compost heap?
masak I'll tell the good news to my mother.
pmichaud
.oO( something is rotten in .nl? )
masak hopefully not. 19:40
rotting takes place in unfavourable circumstances.
mulching is the goal.
Su-Shee oh boy.. long day.. for more than a second I was actually thinking what in computers a compost heap might be and why they choose this pun....
dalek kudo/nom: 51d0614 | pmichaud++ | src/core/Cool.pm:
Fix some copy-paste errors in Cool's string subs.
ast: 775de5b | moritz++ | S32-num/roots.t:
fudge roots.t for Rakudo
mberends it's definitely mulching, no odour problems at all :) 19:41
masak I'm glad. the principles behind that should really be common knowledge.
moritz wow, we have assembled a lot of history... 'git gc' in rakudo takes quite some time :-) 19:43
masak (just in case someone's interested: it's not composting/mulching unless it's (1) body-temp, (2) aired, (3) dry)
dalek kudo/nom: 49b4b78 | moritz++ | / (4 files):
roots and tests
masak moritz: I noticed today that the Rakudo repo has more objects, but the npq repo is larger in bytes. 19:47
mberends afk & # zzz 19:48
19:48 mberends left 19:49 Bzek left
moritz masak: nqp stores the bootstrapping files 19:49
sorear masak: the nqp repo contains several generated files that diff poorly
masak yes, I concluded that would be it.
sorear because PCT uses the current system time for generated symbols
19:50 Mowah left
dalek ast: a3634a9 | moritz++ | S02-whitespace_and_comments/minimal-whitespace.t:
fudge minimal-whitespace.t for rakudo
 19:51
19:53 soh_cah_toa joined 19:55 wolfman2000 left
dalek p: 7426748 | pmichaud++ | src/core/NQPMu.pm:
Remove extra boxing... turns out the .__dump issue was in NQP, not Parrot.
 19:57
ecza: 3708452 | sorear++ | / (3 files):
Experimentally change [+] to be a listop, using <args>
 19:58
masak sorear: ooh! does that mean 'say [+];' will work? 19:59
19:59 Mowah joined
sorear masak: yes 19:59
masak wohoo!
sorear mm? 20:00
rakudo: say [+]
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<[ ]>, couldn't find final ']' at line 22␤»
masak :(
sorear other than removing 20 lines of very ugly code, what's so exciting?
masak I can't put exact words on it. it just *feels* right that it's a listop. 20:01
call it design intuition.
maybe because (+) works in Lisp. 20:02
maybe just because it'd be a shame if it didn't work.
benabik rakudo: say [+] () 20:03
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«0␤»
20:05 lue joined
masak lue! \o/ 20:05
20:06 pjcj left
lue
.oO(I didn't get a chance to say) hello world! o/ .oO(first.)
 20:06
lue backlogs
20:06 leprevost left 20:08 wamba joined 20:09 ab5tract left, im2ee joined 20:10 alim joined
sorear o/ lue 20:13
lue nom: say 1..3; # he typed, hoping against hope it was fixed in the meantime
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«1..3␤»
lue ooh, the "Uninitialize string value" error is gone. 20:14
20:15 wolfman2000 joined
sjn rakudo: say q(this is quoted) 20:15
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &quoted␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/jE8j4aDlA3␤»
sjn rakudo: say qq(this is quoted, with interpolation)
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &quoted␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/1jvMLprOwJ␤»
sjn rakudo: say qq(this is a quote, with interpolation) 20:16
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &quote␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/r0oWbd9ylX␤»
sjn expects perl5isms, obviously
TimToady none of those are quotes in p6
but the message is wrong
sjn any reason for that?
I mean, them not being there?
TimToady so you can always, always call a function with (), even if we add keywords later 20:17
lue Unless it's not supposed to (I don't know what changes have been made lately), I would expect say 1..3; to return the list 1,2,3
sorear Does it make sense to use :$!foo anywhere except in submethod build?
lue: no, it should return 1..3
lue: say doesn't muck with lists anymore 20:18
lue: like I said, it was completely changed
TimToady lue: ranges are now intervals, not sequences, which are now done with ... instead
jnthn sorear: Well, ti's just a combination of a couple of features really.
sorear: There's nothing magical about it and build.
sorear jnthn: I mean BIND_ATTRIBUTE
lue OK.
sorear jnthn: I can't think of any case except BUILD where BIND_ATTRIBUTE is what you want
lue continues to wonder where he was when everything changed... [obviously not on #perl6] 20:19
jnthn sorear: I'm sure I've had a couple of real world cases in @other-lang where I thought "oh, in Perl 6 I'd use attributive params" :)
sorear: Sadly I can't think of them off hand.
20:19 alim_ joined
jnthn I agree BUILD is by far the most obvious place for it, but it also makes it very easy to write traditional setter methods. 20:20
20:21 alim left, alim_ is now known as alim
sorear thinks about giving niecza's signatures a bit more..structure 20:26
20:28 pjcj joined 20:29 mj41 joined
pmichaud std: say q(this is quoted) 20:31
p6eval std 37a0cdd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routines:␤ 'is' used at line 1␤ 'q' used at line 1␤ 'quoted' used at line 1␤ 'this' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 119m␤»
20:32 alim_ joined, alim left, alim_ is now known as alim
masak sorear: would it be possible to get a final newline after ^D at the REPL? want me to file a github issue? 20:36
blog post idea, free for anyone to implement: a quick tour of the best of Perl 6, using the Niecza REPL.
jlaire what's the idiomatic way to implement a constructor? I've got a class C which 'has Int $.a' and I want to be able to write C.new(42) instead of C.new(:a(42)) 20:38
20:39 cooper left
masak jlaire: first question: why do you want that? :) 20:39
tadzik method new(Int $a) { self.bless(*, a => $a) }
masak that is, why do you feel a need to override the default?
jlaire masak: it's so much shorter :)
20:39 cooper joined
sjn rakudo: "".^methods.perl.say 20:39
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«[{ ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { ... }, { .…
masak ok, I buy that.
jlaire these classes are for the AST of lambda calculus
masak rakudo: say "".^methods>>.name.perl 20:40
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«("ACCEPTS", "perl", "pred", "succ", "WHICH", "Bool", "Str", "encode", "indent", "Numeric", "Real", "Int", "Rat", "Num", "abs", "conjugate", "exp", "log", "log10", "sqrt", "roots", "to-radians", "from-radians", "floor", "ceiling", "round", "truncate", "sign", "cis",…
jlaire Lambda(Var('x')) vs. Lambda.new(Var.new('x'))
masak jlaire: ah.
jlaire plus, it feels more like a Haskell ADT without 'new' :)
masak jlaire: to get the former, you need to give it a postcircumfix:<( )> method.
jlaire I tried method new(Int $a) { callwith(:$a) } but that gives mysterious errors
masak jlaire: I sometimes do that, but I usually hesitate quite a bit. 20:41
jlaire .new is somewhat ok, but the :names I don't like
sjn has an impressipon that introspection in perl6 isn't obvious enough
jnthn method new(Int $a) { self.bless(*, :$a) }
jlaire I meant to compare Var.new('x') vs. Var.new(:name('x'))
jnthn: thanks, I'll try that 20:42
jnthn rakudo: say "".^methods
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«ACCEPTSperlpredsuccWHICHBoolStrencodeindentNumericRealIntRatNumabsconjugateexploglog10sqrtrootsto-radiansfrom-radiansfloorceilingroundtruncatesigncisunpolarchrchrsrandsincostanseccoseccotansinhcoshtanhsechcosechcotanhasinacosatanatan2asecacosecacotanasinhacoshatanh…
jnthn nom: say "".^methods
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Bool Int Num Numeric chomp chop substr pred succ Str ACCEPTS gist perl rand bytes chars fmt substr uc lc ucfirst lcfirst chomp chop ord flip index rindex eager elems infinite flat hash list pick roll reverse sort Array grep join map min postcircumfix:<[ ]> at_pos postcircumf…
jlaire currently I have 'class Var' etc. and 'sub Var' etc. which works great but feels wrong :)
jnthn sjn: If you'd not added the .perl you'da got what you were after :)
masak sjn: introspection as a concept isn't very obvious.
jlaire the constructor with .new and positional params will be fine
jnthn sjn: Well, I guess you wanted a list of names, anyway :) 20:43
sjn masak: I think it could be made very obvious :)
jnthn Routine.perl certainly could be improved.
masak sjn: do you have any concrete suggestions? :)
sjn rakudo: "".^methods>>.say
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«ACCEPTS␤perl␤pred␤succ␤WHICH␤Method 'say' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6MultiSub'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/2BVtGzs9sC␤»
masak sjn: um, please do not use .say with a parallelization construct.
TimToady we usually write that as: 20:44
rakudo: .say for ''.^methods
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«ACCEPTS␤perl␤pred␤succ␤WHICH␤Method 'say' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6MultiSub'␤ in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/mSES57Ws5I␤ in main program body at line 1:src/metamodel/RoleToInstanceApplier.nqp␤»
sjn masak: sounds like a errormessage bug :)
masak sjn: no, freedom under responsibility :)
benabik rakudo: ''.^methods[0].say
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«ACCEPTS␤»
sjn masak: anyhow, I have no concrete suggestions, but perhaps some principles 20:46
jnthn
.oO( another failure mode that's gone away in nom)
sorear masak: ehehehe. there's a subtle bug in the REPL that makes that not quite work :/
masak sorear: oh
sorear: I'll file the github issue, then. 20:47
sorear no
I can fix \n easily enough
masak ok :)
sorear but there's something very subtly broken with $_ in the REPL
try say *-1; { say 2 }
or just say *-1;\n say $_ 20:48
masak urgh
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
jlaire rakudo: class C { has $.a }; my $a = 42; say C.new(:$a), C.new($:a)
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«C()<0x613fc38>C()<0x6104f88>␤»
masak [stacktrace omitted]
jlaire: huh! 20:49
jnthn placeholder parameters shouldn't work there :)
masak std: class C { has $.a }; my $a = 42; say C.new(:$a), C.new($:a)
p6eval std 37a0cdd: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Placeholder variable $:a may not be used outside of a block at /tmp/Yf68hECzVU line 1:␤------> }; my $a = 42; say C.new(:$a), C.new($:a⏏)␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 123m␤»
masak right.
I think there's an RT ticket about that.
jnthn nom: class C { has $.a }; my $a = 42; say C.new(:$a), C.new($:a)
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Redeclaration of symbol $a as a placeholder parameter at line 1, near ")"␤current instr.: 'nqp;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 23666 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:6380) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤» 20:50
jlaire goes to rtfs
masak jlaire: S06.
jnthn nom: class C { has $.a }; my $a = 42; say C.new(:$a), C.new($:b)
lue blog post! rdstar.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/co...nom-on-me/
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Segmentation fault␤»
jnthn wow :)
moritz nom: say "a" => 5
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«"a" => 5␤»
tadzik lue: the url doesn't fit in my terminal window :P
moritz nom: say ("a" => 5).Str
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«a 5␤»
jlaire masak: ty 20:51
good thing about these twigils and other symbols is that they're easily greppable
the other day I ran into a piece of scala syntax and couldn't easily find where it's defined 20:52
lue try this: wp.me/pUzx1-1z
masak lue++ # blog post
lue: for what it's worth, I was in your shoes a couple of years back. then #perl6 corrupted me :P
lue: (that said, I never quite grokked what pmurias and ruoso were talking about, they seemed really really smart) 20:53
moritz *and* they were using their own language :-) 20:54
tadzik I still can't distinguish List from Parcel or Array or Seq or ...
masak moritz: Polish and Portuguese? :)
tadzik I think Seq is immutable :)
moritz masak: MOPspeak
masak lue: most compiler talk becomes much more understandable once you've grokked your first compiler. 20:55
moritz tadzik: I can't either. I still hope that pmichaud++'s rewrite of S07 will eventually enlighten me
tadzik :)
jnthn would probably be able to parse the MOPspeak quite well these days :)
masak lue: wanna help me develop Yapsi? :)
lue Every time I think something along the lines of .oO(What is their secret‽ Is there a secret society of knowledge‽ Where is the secret book that lets understand it by Larry Wall‽)
moritz in particular I'm quite surprised that List is now mutable
what's the point in having it over Array if both are mutable?
jnthn slime on the other hand... :)
tadzik oh, I can now investigate the scary List bug 20:56
jnthn lue: There's not really a secret. Compilers are just another area of computing with a bunch of their own terminology and concepts.
masak lue: answer me truly: what is a compiler?
lue A program that turns high-level programming into something a machine can run. 20:57
masak fair enuf.
tadzik it's a program that takes some input and generates some output
:)
that makes compilers sound a lot less scary
jnthn tadzik: Basically, yes :)
masak score one to tadzik.
sjn huh
masak that's what I wanted my point to be :) 20:58
tadzik and, however you look at it, that's correct
masak a compiler is a special kind of filter.
sjn rakudo: "".^methods.elems.say
masak filters are really non-scary.
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«151␤»
sjn rakudo: "".^methods.elems.uniq.say
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«151␤»
sjn oops
moritz and it's even a rather simple program, because it "just" transforms a text to something
masak filters don't have side-effects. they just have an input and an output.
sjn rakudo: "".^methods.uniq.elems.say
jnthn Generally compilers go text => tree => another tree => ... => text :)
20:58 alim left
jlaire jnthn: what's slime? 20:58
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«145␤»
moritz it doesn't have to deal with networks or anything
sjn ooh, now it works
masak jlaire: pmurias and ruoso liked to name their projects after icky, growing things.
tadzik there's this Zenish story about a banking software and the operating system, or something 20:59
jnthn jlaire: There were a sequence of components in the smop project that tended to be named after...unpleasant sounding substances :)
lue
.oO(and now everything I knew about say is just heresay)
masak lue: here's what a compiler looks like on the inside: [parser | tree manipulator | serializer]
jlaire
.oO( slime = Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs... )
okey
sjn anyhoo, shouldn't "".^methods.elems == "".^methods.uniq.elems; ? 21:00
tadzik www.enchanter.net/tao.html#book3 -- see 3.3
21:00 Holy_Cow joined
masak lue: the parser makes you a tree. the tree manipulator might do things like make a better tree out of the parse tree, or do nice optimizations. the serializer gives you back some text. 21:00
21:00 Holy_Cow left
masak lue: you already know about grammars, so you know how that bit works. tree manipulation is kinda easy; that's why we like things as trees. serialization is super-easy. 21:00
tadzik the code generation part has always scared me 21:01
TimToady sjn: not necessarily; what if you want to grep out all the .foo methods?
masak lue: the only tricky part is understanding the domain: the way the runtime works and what it needs to work.
jlaire there are lots of text books about compilers, if you like reading
tadzik I think the upcoming summer will make me feel better about it :)
moritz tadzik: me too, but PCT mostly fixes that for me
masak tadzik: iterating through a tree and outputting things is conceptually simple, though.
tadzik yeah, but I'd like to know how it works, and why
sjn TimToady: what do you mean? my test just pointed out that the ""^.methods array contains duplicates
tadzik after the GSoC cools down a bit, I plan to start a C compiler, just for the sake of learning stuff 21:02
masak tadzik: in Perl 6? :)
sjn rakudo: "".^methods.uniq.elems < "".^methods.elems
tadzik masak: probably, yes :) If it turns out to be fun enough, I may rewrite it to C and bootstrap
p6eval rakudo 72d158: ( no output )
sjn rakudo: say "".^methods.uniq.elems < "".^methods.elems
masak tadzik: \o/
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
tadzik masak: but I want to generate assembly, not Parrot code
masak granted.
tadzik: make sure you read sorear's recommended text. 21:03
tadzik just to solidify the knowledge from the assembly classes
"let's build a compiler"?
it's already on my Kindle, next to the Dragonbook :)
masak tadzik: yes, that.
sorear I haven't actually ever seen a copy of the Dragonbook. 21:04
masak the Dragon book can't hurt either :)
tadzik The Scary List Bug: gist.github.com/1070537
21:04 mj41 left
lue (I have the feeling my P6IF project would help with understanding compilers.) 21:04
sjn rakudo: "".^methods.sort.join(" ").say 21:05
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT« ACCEPTS ACCEPTS BUILD BUILDALL Bool Bool CREATE Capture IO Int Num Numeric Numeric PARROT Rat Real Seq Str Str WALK WHENCE WHERE WHICH WHICH abs acos acosec acosech acosh acotan acotanh all any asec asech asin asinh at_key at_pos atan atan2 atanh bless bytes can c…
[Coke] tadzik: what kind of assembly?
jnthn nom: say List.new('a', 'b', 'c')
dalek ast: 538f68c | moritz++ | S03-operators/reduce-le1arg.t:
fudge reduce test for rakudo
masak lue: have you read steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/06/ri...-food.html ?
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«a b c␤»
tadzik [Coke]: x86, probably nasm syntax
masak lue: basically, one's whole outlook on programming is helped by understanding compilers.
lue I have not /me looking 21:06
tadzik I wanted to take compiler classes next semester, but everyone on my year is to scared to join me :)
jlaire steve yegge's articles need a tl;dr...
masak jlaire: this one has one :P 21:07
it's at the bottom.
jlaire masak: oh! :)
heh
masak :) 21:08
moritz Files=183, Tests=5197 \o/ 21:10
dalek kudo/nom: 533cd63 | moritz++ | t/spectest.data:
run 4 more test files, pass 5.1k tests
masak wow!
jnthn moritz++
masak you people are amazing! 21:11
tadzik yy :)
or even a full yay!
so it's 5198 on podparser I suppose :P
jnthn: could you take a peek at the Scary List Bug?
gist.github.com/1070537 21:12
jnthn tadzik: I'm peeking at the very scary REPL bustage at the moment. :)
tadzik: I'll try and get to the List one in a bit.
tadzik ok, no problem :)
jnthn Somehow on the second run in the repl, it ends up considering "say" a type name... :/
[Coke] so is this coming together faster than ng did? 21:13
moritz [Coke]: it certainly feels like it 21:14
jnthn yes and no
Yes, once nom was really dug in to it's been coming together faster than ng
dalek ecs: 08f2ce9 | larry++ | S05-regex.pod:
$/ is now per-routine
 21:15
jnthn But the groundwork leading up to nom may well have been longer
lue
.oO(situation 2 [in that blogspot post] doesn't sound like me...)
jnthn Hard to say for sure.
I know that 6model took a while to think up, got a CLR implementation, then got a Parrot implementation, then NQP got re-done, then it got migrated to build meta-objects at compile time. Plus multi-dispatch got re-designed. All of that took place before nom started. 21:16
otoh, ng was preceded by in some ways an even bigger NQP re-write, and a total grammar engine do-over 21:17
TimToady rakudo: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.say
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«Code()␤»
tadzik oh-oh, panda will be talked about!
TimToady rakudo: say ''.^methods.grep('ACCEPTS')».WHICH 21:18
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«14020462704742458315224␤»
TimToady rakudo: .say for ''.^methods.grep('ACCEPTS')».WHICH
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«140043144995840␤56742360␤»
TimToady sjn: ^^ note the supposed dups are two different Codes 21:19
[Coke] jnthn: that reminds me - will nom branch work on nqp-clr? 21:20
masak lue: Yegge has, like many people, an outdated view of Perl. lots of people do.
lue: it's especially bad for people who have been exposed to lots of code by people who don't, let's say, value maintainability. 21:21
dalek ast: f77300f | moritz++ | S32-num/power.t:
unfudge Complex.roots tests for rakudo
 21:22
jnthn [Coke]: No - there's a bunch of work to go before that can happen
[Coke]: The Parrot 6model implementation is ahead of the clr one, for one thing. 21:23
moritz that should push us over the 5.2k tests limit
and with that I'll retire to bed. Good * folks!
jnthn o/ moritz
21:23 Chillance left 21:24 masak left, masak joined
masak 'night, moritz 21:24
dream of 7k tests :) 21:25
sorear hello masak.
masak must've been a glitch. I hope it doesn't manifest again. 21:26
sjn TimToady: ah, cool. how do I probe for more information on those methods? (e.g. what class they're inherited from) 21:31
TimToady rakudo: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods.join(' ').say
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«new assuming callwith multi name perl signature do Str of returns Numeric Real Int Rat Num abs conjugate exp log log10 sqrt roots to-radians from-radians floor ceiling round truncate sign cis unpolar chr chrs rand sin cos tan sec cosec cotan sinh cosh tanh sech cos…
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods.join(' ').say 21:32
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Method 'Stringy' not found for invocant of class 'Sub'␤current instr.: 'join' pc 368542 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:98936) (src/gen/CORE.setting:486)␤»
jnthn aww, that used to work
TimToady rakudo: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local).join(' ').say
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«new assuming callwith multi name perl signature do Str of returns␤»
jnthn TimToady: Should Code ~~ Cool? 21:33
TimToady NO!
masak :)
jnthn TimToady: Figured not
TimToady we had that discussion several days ago
masak when you were away, jntn :)
jnthn OK, just trying to figure out who was the Stringy :)
21:34 everbrew left
TimToady I suspect we should not rely on Cool for stringifying method names 21:34
21:35 peczenyj left, deezy joined
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local).gist.say 21:35
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«␤»
deezy when will perl6 be production ready?
jnthn nom: say ''.^methods[0].WHAT
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Method()␤»
TimToady Christmas
masak deezy: any reason you ask? 21:36
jnthn TimToady: Method is just a subclass of Routine, so it has no local methods.
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local)».name.gist.say
dalek ecza: 240a9af | sorear++ | / (3 files):
More tweaks to repl variable handling, I think $_ is mostly working
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Could not find sub !dispatch_method_parallel␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 138 ((file unknown):999128829) (/tmp/2IYWXi3Mhj:1)␤»
sorear deezy: "production ready" doesn't apply to software
jnthn No hypers in nom yet 21:37
masak deezy: I'm using Perl 6 in production, and have for going on a year now.
sorear deezy: when will Perl 6 be ready for you to use? well, that depends entirely on what you want to use it for.
deezy yes, I have been a perl 5 user for years and was curious on whether I could use perl6 for production web development.
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local).map(*.name).gist.say
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'Whatever'␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 149 ((file unknown):88) (/tmp/Poxgcl6cjW:1)␤»
masak deezy: that's what I'm using it for.
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local).map({.name}).gist.say 21:38
masak deezy: I have a 250 line Perl 6 script building my static blog for me.
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«␤»
deezy masak, how is the performance compared to php5 and jsp?
sjn deezy: no hurries yet, perl6 is under good development, but if you want it to do demanding stuff you should probably stay with Perl5 for a while more
masak deezy: slower, currently.
TimToady but we're getting faster faster :) 21:39
masak deezy: likely too slow for what you're planning. but we won't know that until you've tried. :)
deezy: also, try Niecza for speed.
sjn deezy: what you get with Perl6 is an really expressive language
a*
masak deezy: I'm planning to rewrite some hot paths of my blog engine in Niecza.
sjn deezy: so if you're a computer language geek, this is the place to be :) 21:40
deezy Thanks masak. I will try it. Keep up the good work guys.
lue afk
sjn deezy: if you're just after Getting the Job Done, stick with Perl5 and CPAN for a little while more
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local)[0].name.say
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'Mu'␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 154 ((file unknown):55098344) (/tmp/sz2h_1IjML:1)␤»
TimToady say wot? 21:41
deezy masak, whats the url of your blog
21:41 Mowah left
masak deezy: strangelyconsistent.org 21:41
deezy thanks
masak my pleasure :)
TimToady rakudo: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local)[0].name.say
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«new␤»
TimToady jnthn: how comes I get a Mu there? 21:42
nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local).WHAT.say 21:43
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
jnthn nom: (1,2,3)[3].WHAT.say
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local).list.[0].name.say
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'Mu'␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 166 ((file unknown):49039754) (/tmp/xaE5NsHEXX:1)␤»
jnthn nom: (1,2,3).list.[3].WHAT.say 21:44
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Mu()␤»
jnthn nom: (1,2,3).list.WHAT.say
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«List()␤»
jnthn Hm
TimToady seems a bit suboptimal...
jnthn TimToady: Guess it shoulda been Any?
nom: my @a; say @a[0].WHAT
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local).Array.[0].name.say 21:45
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 166 ((file unknown):35281290) (/tmp/4mu1Y03IU4:1)␤»
21:46 Patterner left
TimToady point is, it should be either Mu or Any, it should be the name of new 21:46
nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local).list.munch.name.say
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤current instr.: 'munch' pc 389932 (src/gen/CORE.setting.pir:109276) (src/gen/CORE.setting:2297)␤»
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local).list.munch(1).name.say 21:47
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'Parcel'␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 166 ((file unknown):59600714) (/tmp/U4LPL8oPox:1)␤»
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local).list.munch(1).perl.say
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«()␤»
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local).perl.say
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«()␤»
jnthn TimToady: I'm confused
TimToady: "name of new"?
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local)[0].name.say 21:48
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'Mu'␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 154 ((file unknown):44821480) (/tmp/n_WWo2GAbH:1)␤»
TimToady rakudo: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods(:local)[0].name.say
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«new␤»
jnthn TimToady: Seems that some some reason in master, Method declares its own .new method 21:49
TimToady: In nom it just inherits one from elsewhere
TimToady nom: ''.^methods[0].WHAT.^methods()[0].name.say
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Method 'name' not found for invocant of class 'Sub'␤current instr.: '_block1002' pc 146 ((file unknown):20538630) (/tmp/DX_tvRIjQJ:1)␤»
TimToady well, that's different at least :)
jnthn Now, that's a bug.
nom: sub foo() { }; say &foo.name
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«foo␤» 21:50
jnthn oh :/
21:50 drbean joined
jnthn Code has NQP methods, not Perl 6 ones. Circularity sawing fun. 21:50
Fixable.
TimToady Cool! I mean, not Cool!
21:51 wamba left
jnthn Just a bit of fun when Code's methods need to be Code :) 21:51
Well, or Method :)
jnthn is having a hard time with the repl breakage
TimToady .o(there's a Code to our Cadness...)
21:52 spq1 left, wamba joined 21:53 Psyche^ joined, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner 21:54 alester joined 22:00 im2ee left 22:01 deezy left 22:02 bitpat joined
masak I'll tell you, this text adventure game stuff is no child's play. 22:03
TimToady when will you tell us? 22:04
masak oops, uncolloquial English detected.
s/\'ll// 22:05
TimToady :)
masak I'm now up to 233 lines, with no sign of slowing down or becoming shorter.
but I guess that's OK.
rakudo: role R { has $.x; method x {} }; class C does R {}; say "alive" 22:07
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤A method named 'x' already exists in class 'C'. It may have been supplied by a role.␤»
masak jnthn: known?
nom: role R { has $.x; method x {} }; class C does R {}; say "alive"
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Package 'C' already has a method 'x'; did you mean to declare a multi-method?␤current instr.: 'nqp;Perl6;Metamodel;MethodContainer;add_method' pc 21437 (src/gen/perl6-metamodel.pir:0) (src/gen/Metamodel.pm:190)␤»
jnthn Better.
masak but wrong.
jnthn oh? 22:08
masak I say so.
there's no conflict there.
jnthn The role conflict one is wrong
The nom error is just a duplicate method error
masak there's no duplicate method either.
there's just one method. 22:09
jnthn Well, there is because Attribute.compose tries to add the accessor you ask for.
masak I know why.
jnthn I suspect we should tell it not to if there already is one.
masak and it doesn't generate an error for classes.
shouldn't for roles either.
jnthn I find that hard to believe.
masak which part?
felher lue++ for blog blog post :)
jnthn nom: class C { has $.x; method x {} } 22:10
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Package 'C' already has a method 'x'; did you mean to declare a multi-method?␤current instr.: 'nqp;Perl6;Metamodel;MethodContainer;add_method' pc 21437 (src/gen/perl6-metamodel.pir:0) (src/gen/Metamodel.pm:190)␤»
jnthn No, it's true for classes too
masak wtf?
rakudo: class C { has $.x; method x {} }
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤A method named 'x' already exists in class 'C'. It may have been supplied by a role.␤»
TimToady S12:669 seems to imply that masak is correct, or at least speccish
jnthn Anyway, just a fix to Attribute.compose
TimToady it doesn't say you have to change $.x to $!x
masak I... I just assumed.
jnthn TimToady: Yeah, I'm agreeing. :)
masak ok, so it needs fixing for both classes and roles. in both master and nom :P 22:11
jnthn masak: no
It needs fixing in Attribute.compose
masak sure, ok.
jnthn (Which fixes it for all package types.)
jnthn puts aside the repl bug for now to do other bits 22:12
dukeleto tadzik: pong 22:13
dalek ecs: 61c34a1 | larry++ | S12-objects.pod:
slightly clarify that $.x autogens at } if needed
 22:14
tadzik dukeleto: ack. So, is your talk just about the usage, or you want to poke some panda philosophy/internals?
TimToady where } is shorthand for "compose time" 22:15
dukeleto tadzik: mostly basics. Just want to give people a very easy onramp to understand Perl 6 modules. Just want to show the basics of panda, module-starter and the structure of a Perl 6 module
masak dukeleto++
22:16 bitpat left
dukeleto is going to give a talk at the next PDX.pm that is an intro to Perl 6 modules 22:16
masak \o/
tadzik dukeleto: it's just that panda's user interface is pretty crappy and inconsistent and I'm planning a rework of that, but the 'panda install something' case shouldn't really change 22:17
jnthn TimToady: It already does at }, just misses the "if needed" part
dukeleto tadzik: yeah, i just want to show people how to install panda and then use panda to install perl 6 modules. Not going to do more than that
tadzik: is the sh bootstrap.sh part going to change soon?
tadzik: just want to show people how to install panda
tadzik dukeleto: no, I think that'll stay 22:18
dukeleto tadzik: goodly
tadzik: Module::Starter could use some love
tadzik it's just that I tried to DRY as much as possible in panda's REPL and the batch interface, and as a result both suck :)
dukeleto: the GITHUB_ issue, or something more? 22:19
dukeleto tadzik: i would like it to at least generate stub module code, even if it is just: use v6; class FOO { };
22:19 donri left
dukeleto tadzik: module-starter should give people some basic tests, a stub .pm, and a README 22:19
tadzik well, you never know if it's gonna be a class {}, module {} or just a collection of other modules, that's why I avoided that part 22:20
but I'm fine with --create-stubs, --create-tests etc
feel free to open issues for that, I may look at them in the morning
dukeleto tadzik: ok, sounds good.
TimToady cleaning up the specmess for $! is gonna take more work than $/ did, sigh 22:22
$! needs to be only the last failure, whether handled or not, and be completely decoupled from the notion of current inflight exception(s) 22:23
jnthn nom: sub foo(*@x) { say @x.elems }; my @a = 1,2; my @b = 3,4; foo(@a, @b) 22:24
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«4␤»
TimToady or at least, mostly decoupled
jnthn nom: sub foo(**@x) { say @x.elems }; my @a = 1,2; my @b = 3,4; foo(@a, @b)
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«2␤»
22:24 bluescreen10 joined
TimToady nom: sub foo(**@x) { say @x[0].elems }; my @a = 1,2; my @b = 3,4; foo(@a, @b) 22:25
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«2␤»
TimToady nom: sub foo(**@x) { say @x[0][10] }; my @a = 1,2,4...*; my @b = 3,4; foo(@a, @b)
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«1024␤»
TimToady \o/ 22:26
masak TimToady: are attributes private to a role? can I use $!attr in a role and expect it to bind to a private attribute in a class? 22:27
TimToady don't know what you mean by 'use' there 22:28
do you mean declare? 22:29
masak role R { method m { $!attr } }; class C does R { has $!attr }
TimToady rakudo: role R { method m { $!attr } }; class C does R { has $!attr } 22:30
p6eval rakudo 72d158: ( no output )
masak I know Rakudo does it.
TimToady rakudo: role R { method m { $!attr } }; class C does R { has $!attr }; say 'alive'
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«alive␤»
TimToady niecza: role R { method m { $!attr } }; class C does R { has $!attr }; say 'alive'
masak I'm wondering whether there is a long-term support for it.
p6eval niecza v7-18-g240a9af: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Action method trait_mod:does not yet implemented at /tmp/WQJ_TGV_RE line 1:␤------> { method m { $!attr } }; class C does R ⏏{ has $!attr }; say 'alive'␤␤Cannot use hash access on an object of type Str at /…
masak I don't want to write code for the adventure game that will be obsolete in the next big refactor. 22:31
jnthn masak: nom: role R { method m { $!attr } }; class C does R { has $!attr }
er
nom: role R { method m { $!attr } }; class C does R { has $!attr }
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Attribute $!attr not declared in role R at line 1, near " } }; clas"␤current instr.: 'nqp;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 23666 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:6380) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤»
TimToady well, I'd argue that if the role does the 'has', it should probably be private to the role, but if the class does the 'has', it's pretty obvious to the role that it must be coming from elsewhere...
jnthn nom is correct here
masak jnthn: guess that answers my question, then.
TimToady: I think so too. 22:32
TimToady: that works much better with parametric roles.
jnthn nom: role R { has $!attr; method m { $!attr } }; class C does R { has $!attr }
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Attribute '$!attr' already exists in the class 'C', but a role also wishes to compose it␤current instr.: '_block2612' pc 35151 (src/gen/perl6-metamodel.pir:10860) (src/gen/Metamodel.pm:1055)␤»
jnthn That one we could discuss a bit. It's not going to be easy to fix at all.
masak TimToady: waitwait. what does the thing after ', but' mean? :) 22:33
jnthn (if we decide it's wrong, that is)
masak TimToady: it's *not* obvious to the role.
TimToady: the role isn't aware of the class until it's composed into it.
jnthn But S14 IIRC has language to the effect of an attribute declaration in a role being as if it was in the class.
In which case this one: 22:34
nom: role R { has $!attr; method m { $!attr } }; class C does R { method foo() { $!attr } }
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Attribute $!attr not declared in class C at line 1, near " } }"␤current instr.: 'nqp;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 23666 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:6380) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:328)␤»
jnthn Is probably dubious.
masak aye.
jnthn That one is fairly easy to fix.
We just have to postpone our attribute usage checks until after the } 22:35
When we really know all the attributes taht we have
though of course that lets you write
class Foo { method x { $!y }; has $!y }
:)
Which nom currently complains about.
TimToady I'm not too worried about that 22:36
22:36 Kivutarrr left
jnthn We'd still get the errors at compile time. 22:36
We could keep around enough to complain with the correct source position too. 22:37
TimToady I was even entertaining the thought of allowing postdeclaration of lexicals in certain situations, to make it easier to write list comprehensions
masak lue: just pushed a big commit to crypt. there's now a hidden door in the hill, which can be opened, connecting together the hill and the chamber. feel free to try it if you have time. 22:38
TimToady: nooooo
it's fine as it is, really. 22:39
22:43 mtk left
jnthn > class Foo { has $.x; method x { 42 } }; say Foo.new.x 22:44
42
masak \o/
jnthn++
TimToady yayness
jnthn nom: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = 4,5,6; say @a X @b 22:45
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«1 4 1 5 1 6 2 4 2 5 2 6 3 4 3 5 3 6␤»
jnthn nom: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = 4,5,6; my @c = @a X @b; say @c.elems 22:46
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«18␤»
jnthn nom: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = 4,5,6; my @c := @a X @b; say @c.elems
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«9␤»
jnthn nom: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = 4,5,6; my @c := @a X @b; say @c[0].WHAT
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
jnthn \o/
pmichaud++ 22:47
nom: my $a = [1,2,3]; my $b = [4,5,6]; my @c := $a X $b; say @c[0].WHAT
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
jnthn nom: my $a = [1,2,3]; my $b = [4,5,6]; my @c := $a X $b; say @c.elems
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«9␤»
jnthn ah
:(
pmichaud: ^^ looks wrongish. I realized that X makes all permutations of stuff - which turns out to be exactly what we need to do auto-threading. 22:48
pmichaud: but if I can't scalarize individual arguments and not have X flatten them out, it's probably not going to work
TimToady I think we noticed that bug yesterday 22:49
jnthn oh
yeah, we did but I think with Z
TimToady same difference
jnthn Right
Same underlying issue I expect
22:50 whiteknight left
TimToady nom: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = 4,5,6; my @c = 7,8,9; say (@a Z @b Z @c).perl 22:50
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«((1, 4, 7), (2, 5, 8), (3, 6, 9)).list␤»
TimToady nom: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = 4,5,6; my @c = 7,8,9; say (\@a Z \@b Z \@c).perl 22:51
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«((1, 4, 7), (2, 5, 8), (3, 6, 9)).list␤»
TimToady and that
jnthn Anyway, junction auto-threading gets a bunch easier if I can just use X rather than re-invent it.
22:51 estrabd left
jlaire hm, is there a syntax for declaring in a role an attribute that must be provided by the host class? 22:54
TimToady I kinda wish we could write: for ^10 -> $x X $x..^10 -> $y { say "$x $y" }
masak TimToady: that's hakank++'s suggestion :)
masak vaguely feels that there should be a macro for that 22:55
jnthn jlaire: No, but you couldn't access the attribute of the class anyway
jlaire: There is a way for a role to require a method though
jlaire jnthn: ok, method will do
thanks
TimToady well, if you just use the attribute, and it's never declared, I suspect it'll blow up at compose time at the latest 22:57
that's kinda what we were talking about earlier
jlaire yeah
but that sounds very error-prone
TimToady in what way?
masak in a good way :) 22:58
jlaire a typo could look like the class doesn't provide the attribute
TimToady in which case it blows up at compile time
which is good
compose usually happens at compile time, anyhoo 22:59
jlaire might be thinking too much about scala traits...
TimToady which apparently throw out the main point of Smalltalk traits... 23:00
jlaire to see everything a role requires, I'll need to read everything in it
TimToady no, that's the compiler's job :)
jlaire an attribute declaration would make the requirement very explicit
jnthn oh, wait, I don't think using X for auto-threading is even right... 23:01
It own't get the nesting right
d'oh.
TimToady it's pretty easy to find a misspelled attribute if the compiler tells you its name 23:02
jnthn jnthn-- should probably not hack when jetlagged :)
Though I don't actually feel tired at all...
jlaire maybe I'll start to like this, just need to write more Perl 6 23:03
TimToady: what's the main point of Smalltalk traits? 23:04
that scala throws away
TimToady collision detection 23:05
jlaire kk
TimToady otherwise you might as well just use mixins
sounds like scala is using mixins and calling the traits 23:06
but maybe they aren't actually trying to follow smalltalk
after all, we also use the word 'traits' for something else
jlaire the word 'mixin' is also used in scala
when talking about traits
so the deviation might be intentional 23:07
TimToady dinner &
jlaire from Tour of Scala: "To define a class that can be used as a mixin we use the keyword trait." :) 23:08
rakudo: my @xs = 1,2,3; say @xs[0 .. *] 23:15
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 23:16
jnthn rakudo: my @xs = 1,2,3; say @xs[0 .. Inf]
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
jlaire that should work, right?
jnthn Probably not the Inf one. Maybe the * one
rakudo: my @xs = 1,2,3; say @xs[*]
p6eval rakudo 72d158: OUTPUT«123␤»
jlaire S09 says @xs[*] and @xs[0 .. *] are the same thing
jnthn nom: my @xs = 1,2,3; say @xs[*] 23:17
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
jnthn nom: my @xs = 1,2,3; say @xs[0 .. *]
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
23:17 wamba left
jnthn ah, fixed in nom already :) 23:17
pmichaud++
jlaire nice :)
nom: my @xs = 1,2,3; say @xs[1 .. *] 23:18
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«2 3␤»
23:19 tokuhirom joined
pmichaud back again 23:20
sjohnson back in black 23:21
23:26 whiteknight joined 23:28 orafu left 23:29 orafu joined 23:32 dorlamm joined
jlaire nom: my @xs = 1,2,3; say @xs[4 .. *] 23:34
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«␤»
jlaire nom: my @xs = 1,2,3; say +@xs[4 .. *]
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«0␤»
jlaire nom: my @xs; say +(@xs[0], @xs[1 .. *]) 23:35
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«1␤»
jlaire nom: my @xs = 0; say +(@xs[0], @xs[1 .. *])
p6eval nom: OUTPUT«1␤»
sjohnson nom noms 23:36
23:42 colomon left 23:46 cdarroch left 23:54 molaf_ joined 23:55 molaf__ left

Powered by Cro and the Raku® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!