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Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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jnthn sleep & 00:09
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sorear is back with some insight into the string problem 00:11
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sorear I'm now imagining three "string" types, ByteStr, CodeStr, and Str, which are related to each other like Rat is to Num 00:11
a Str is just graphemes; it doesn't remember the order of its modifiers 00:12
ByteStr is a lossless representation of a buf8 that is simultaneously stringish
ByteStr->CodeStr->Str are allowable coercions that reduce precision, like Rat->Num, so $bytestr ~ $str is allowed and returns a Str
"foo" would probably be a ByteStr because there is exactly one way to represent it using non-EBCDIC common encodings 00:16
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sorear likewise "上" would be a CodeStr and "á" would be a Str 00:17
coercions "down" the list, like coercion from Num to Rat, are never done implicitly except for output 00:18
arnsholt What's a CodeStr again? 00:19
TimToady what you have right now, basically
arnsholt Ah, right. A string of character codes 00:20
sorear observe the difference- ByteStr is an interpreted sequence of bytes, buf8 is an uninterpreted sequence 00:21
TimToady however, I was thinking there were two CodeStr types, named NFC and NFD
just as there's a utf8 ByteStr type (supposedly) 00:22
sorear TimToady: what do I do if I want to losslessly process an uninterpreted sequence of (uint where * <= 0x10FFFE) ?
TimToady there can certainly be a type that doesn't commit, just as buf8 doesn't commit to utf8 00:23
but you'd better know which it is when you need to know :) 00:24
sorear I am thinking that domain-wise, NFD and NFD are the same as Str
they just impose different views
I am now considering how my model of 3 domains maps onto types. 00:25
TimToady NFD and NFC I view as "encodings" of Str at the codepoint level rather than the byte level
sorear I suspect that the type purely reflects the level of the *view* and can be mixed near-freely with the domain
dalek ast: dfc142d | (Pawel Pabian)++ | S12-methods/multi.t:
[S12-methods/multi.t] test for #67024 rakudo should complain about re-definition of non-multi method
TimToady well, the early design of Perl 6 had multiple views on the same string, which is why we have StrPos
sorear hmm 00:26
TimToady that's supposed to be the same regardless of your view
but the multi-level approach has been de-emphasized lately
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sorear If we encode views in types there will be some dispatch issues. NFD $x cannot be used interchangably with a Str 00:27
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TimToady which is why parameters should not be declared Str, but Stringy 00:28
then Coolness can happen
sorear If I have Stringy $x declared somewhere, I might expect $x.substr(0,1) to do something consistent 00:29
not depend on the runtime type of $x
TimToady indeed, the feeling was that your 1 would be interpreted as the highest allowed abstraction level in scope 00:32
so grapheme in the absense of use codes or bytes
but there are complexity issues, and I'd like us to at least achieve consistent NFG semantics before we overdesign the whole thing 00:34
to me that's more important than round-tripping, which can be faked with lower-level types when needed 00:35
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TimToady as for identity issues, you can't even say for sure in ASCII whether foo and Foo are the same item, unless you know the system. :) 00:39
sorear axiom 1: say .chars for dir; should work 00:40
axiom 2: .unlink for dir; should work
this is what I'm starting from 00:41
TimToady I don't see how your #1 can possible work given POSIX's head-in-the-sand attitude to characters 00:42
*possibly
some filesystems *do* know whether filenames are in Unicode 00:43
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sorear TimToady: it should at least try to work, which means somehow combining the Buf result with the locale encoding and making chars work on the combination when the Buf is parsable 00:46
TimToady and the typical Unixoid answer to #1, look in an env var, is insane
sorear perhaps it returns a Buf with $!candidate-encoding set and Buf.chars implements DWIM
TimToady but yes, that's about as good as we can do, when forced to guess 00:47
sorear perhaps it tries parsing internally, and returns Str if it can
in the latter case Str needs to remember the byte sequence somehow, to make #2 work when there is a flexible encoding
TimToady perhaps dir looks for a consisten pattern :) 00:48
*tent
sorear I beleive Mac OS X/HFS+ requires NFC UTF8 for all filenames, meaning that every filename can be roundtripped to graphemes
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TimToady I thought Mac tended to bias towards NFD 00:49
sorear that was the least certain letter in the message anyway
TimToady :)
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TimToady tends to bias towards (and beyond) NFC, in case you hadn't noticed :) 00:50
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TimToady but there, comes of studying linguistics from the insides of people's heads, not the outsides... 00:50
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TimToady s/not/not just/ 00:50
phonetics and phonemics are complementary
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TimToady but I shy away from NFD not so much because it's an "inefficient" encode but because it's forcing the language user into an "etic" view instead of an "emic" view 00:52
*encoding
and being emic is part of what makes Perl Perl 00:53
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emic_and_etic 00:54
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TimToady anyway, the etic/emic distinction can happen on multiple levels, so codepoints are an emic view of the more etic byte encoding, but a more etic view of the more emic grapheme view; these distinctions also recur as you go up the human language stack from sounds to words to sentences to texts to cultural events 01:03
so I am not, in principle, against providing multiple views into an item depending on context 01:04
but it has to be managed well 01:05
and I tend to be prejudiced toward the emic since most other computer languages tend the other way, and force the programmer to think about bits and bytes
or codepoints, these days... 01:06
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TimToady y'all can come out from hiding now 01:29
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colomon is watching Ashes to Ashes season 2 (and the UofM / Notre Dame football game) 01:59
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cognominal bodil.github.com/coffeescript/#larry-wall-slide 02:15
I wonder what is the difference between the emic and the etic take on TimToady moustache :) 02:17
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sorear eh. ultimately I'm still worried by what "failure to roundtrip" will cause 04:04
maybe I'm overthinking this...
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sorear now, I need to truly understand rope balancing 04:18
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snarkyboojum sorear: getting into some slacklining eh? :D 04:39
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sorear snarkyboojum: nah, just studying a data structure with woefully inadequate literature 04:45
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sorear looks like nobody else really understands ropes, either 05:23
did a survey of implementations linked from the Wikipedia page
the C++, Java, and OCaml implementations all appear to use essentially the same algorithms as described in the ropes paper 05:24
as opposed to the Haskell people, who use finger trees instead
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snarkyboojum by ropes paper, are you referring to Ropes: an Alternative to Strings, by boehm, atkinson and plass? 05:44
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sorear snarkyboojum: yes 05:49
everyone cargo culted their code
despite some rather obvious pathological cases
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sorear thinks the STL source code is terrible 05:55
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snarkyboojum "It is not clear whether the implementation we suggested above is in any sense optimal." I enjoyed that. 05:58
along with "The machine had enough memory (64 MB) that paging was not an issue."
:)
sorear rereads the old Okasaki papers to try and understand them 06:00
snarkyboojum "Purely Functional Data Structures" ? 06:02
sorear yes
okasaki has done some insane things with amortized time bounds
snarkyboojum sounds juicy
sorear like mathematically modelling the state introduced by closure caching
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sorear I mean thunk memoization 06:03
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sorear like how after my @arr := map *.rand, ^100; rand will never be called more than 100 times because the reads keep state 06:03
I understood the correctness of finger trees years ago but never understood the amortized time proofs before ... hoping this time it'll sink in 06:04
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snarkyboojum ah, this is his PhD thesis - definitely juicy :) 06:06
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sorear I think I get the worst-case O(1) lazy persistant queues now. Ow. 06:57
snarkyboojum snoc is probably my new favourite word 07:01
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sorear out 08:03
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cotto snoc? 08:05
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szabgab meta question: how can I leave a message to masak? 08:10
cotto aloha msg szabgab like this
or not
aloha, aloha?
jlaire msg jlaire ping 08:11
szabgab @msg masak may I recommend you link between your related blog entries? (eg. from part 3 to part 1 and from part 1 to the other 2 parts)
not even that :)
tadzik phenny: tell szabgab foobar
phenny tadzik: I'll pass that on when szabgab is around.
tadzik now say something
szabgab phenny: tell masak may I recommend you link between your related blog entries? (eg. from part 3 to part 1 and from part 1 to the other 2 parts) 08:12
phenny szabgab: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
szabgab: 08:11Z <tadzik> tell szabgab foobar
szabgab thanks tadzik , now if you could recommend a way to actually remember this :)
tadzik hmm
cotto phenny, help 08:13
phenny cotto: Hi, I'm a bot. Say ".commands" to me in private for a list of my commands, or see inamidst.com/phenny/ for more general details. My owner is sbp.
szabgab that's a good second step
jlaire my favourite format is botname: recipient: message goes here
i.e., just prepend 'botname: '
szabgab first I need to remember the bot is called phenny :)
but thanks anyway 08:14
snarkyboojum cotto: opposite of cons 08:16
cotto snarkyboojum, cute 08:17
snarkyboojum cotto: exactly my reaction, too :)
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snarkyboojum actually, that's not strictly true - it's the reverse of cons.. sloppy engrish here :) 08:19
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ranguard hi, where should would be Perl 6 developers be pointed to dev.perl.org/perl6/ or www.perl6.org ? 08:24
im2ee Hello! :)
tadzik ranguard: the latter 08:25
hello im2ee
ranguard tadzik: cheers 08:29
ranguard updates the perlfaq
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moritz ranguard++ # Perl 6 perlfaq updates 08:52
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masak goedemorgen, #perl6 09:32
phenny masak: 08:12Z <szabgab> tell masak may I recommend you link between your related blog entries? (eg. from part 3 to part 1 and from part 1 to the other 2 parts)
masak a fine idea!
masak does so 09:33
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mberends goedemasak 09:39
bbkr nom: grammar A { token a { a } }; A.a() # is this correct behavior? 09:40
p6eval nom 00a115: OUTPUT«Cannot access attributes in a type object␤ in !cursor_start at src/stage2/QRegex.nqp:519␤ in regex a at /tmp/I1ZgS1gn3v:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/I1ZgS1gn3v:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/I1ZgS1gn3v:1␤␤»
tadzik nom: clas A { method a { /a/ } }; A.a() 09:41
p6eval nom 00a115: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in mainline␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤===SORRY!===␤error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected '\n'␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 27889775␤␤»
tadzik nom: class A { method a { /a/ } }; A.a()
p6eval nom 00a115: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤===SORRY!===␤error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected '\n'␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 670␤␤»
tadzik eek
mberends tries to write a Niecza GUI calculator from memory of ye olden days 09:42
bbkr A::a should be accessible, no doubt for that. but should A.a ?
snarkyboojum does the rakudo target run nom now? 09:45
tadzik nom: class Foo { method bar { say "foo" } }; Foo.bar 09:46
p6eval nom 00a115: OUTPUT«foo␤»
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snarkyboojum apparently yes :) 09:47
tadzik snarkyboojum: yes 09:48
snarkyboojum tadzik: just saw your last commit :) 09:49
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snarkyboojum where can I find documentation on the main differences between nom and old master? has anyone blogged or documented it somewhere? 09:50
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snarkyboojum other than myriad blog posts etc 09:51
would be a great candidate for rakudo.org - listing main changes/improvements etc 09:52
I guess people have been too busy building an awesome nom/rakudo :)
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masak snarkyboojum! \o/ 09:57
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snarkyboojum masak! -o_ \o- \o/ 09:57
lol
masak: how's things? been a while! solved time travel yet? 09:58
Frida hej bror..
masak Frida: klicka på fliken "masak" längst upp. :) 09:59
snarkyboojum: time travel remains an open problem for now... :)
tadzik snarkyboojum: it would probably be a big announcement once we get a nom-based release 10:00
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snarkyboojum masak: but not intractable.. surely! :) 10:00
tadzik: makes good sense to me
masak snarkyboojum: surely not. just a bit of work.
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snarkyboojum are there benchmarks pitting implementation against implementation? 10:06
I guess the test suite... 10:07
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snarkyboojum wash. Niecza build fails on OS X using Mono 2.8.2 10:12
waah even :)
core dump
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dalek ast: a8847f2 | (Pawel Pabian)++ | S12-construction/new.t:
[t/S12-construction/new.t] test for #68756: [BUG] defining extra .new methods with multi in an object results in loss of original .new
 10:13
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bbkr what happened to Multi type in nom? NYI or removed from spec? 10:19
snarkyboojum doesn't coredump with RUN_CLR=mono-sgen, but doesn't build either, just sits there doing nothing :|
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snarkyboojum phenny: tell sorear having fun trying to build Niecza on OS X -> gist.github.com/1209432 10:25
phenny snarkyboojum: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
snarkyboojum phenny: tell sorear using RUN_CLR=mono coredumps 10:26
phenny snarkyboojum: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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jnthn bbkr: Multi type makes no sense under current spec. 10:44
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bbkr jnthn: so this can be closed: rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=68774 ? 10:58
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masak bbkr: yes. 10:59
bbkr thanks 11:00
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jnthn +1 11:08
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masak Frida: observe :) 11:17
rakudo: say "OH HAI Frida!"
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«OH HAI Frida!␤»
Frida hello..
masak rakudo: say pi - 2; say 4 - pi
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«1.14159265␤0.85840735␤»
masak rakudo: say sqrt 3 11:18
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«1.73205080756888␤»
masak rakudo: say 1 / 7 / 7; say 1 / 49
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«0.0204081632653061␤0.0204081632653061␤»
masak :)
masak has been solving math problems with his kid sister Frida for the past hour or so...
and now it's time to demo Perl 6 ;)
Frida yes... i've learnd that now :) long time i studied math.. but my brother is a great helper... 11:19
masak \o/
masak blushes
Frida :)
masak rakudo: my $x = 1 / 49; say 7 * $x == 1 / 7
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
masak Frida: so, you see, 'say' prints stuff. 11:20
and then all math just works.
rakudo: say sqrt(3); say 3 ** 0.5
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«1.73205080756888␤1.73205080756888␤»
masak rakudo: say sqrt(3) == 3 ** 0.5
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
Frida :) 11:21
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masak rakudo: say <good fast cheap>.pick(2) 11:22
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«good cheap␤»
masak that's us alright... :)
(old joke, I know)
Frida: also, we have object orientation. 11:23
Frida yes i see that.. to the right ?? 11:24
masak hold on.
rakudo: class Brother { has $.color; method compliment { $!color = 'red' } }; my $brother = Brother.new(:color<pale>); say $brother.color; $brother.compliment; say $brother.color
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«pale␤red␤»
masak ;)
maybe that was too complicated an example...
rakudo: my $r = 1 / 7; say $r.WHAT 11:25
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
masak rakudo: my $r = 1 / 7; say $r.denominator 11:26
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«7␤»
masak rakudo: my $r = 1 / 7; say ($r * $r).denominator
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«49␤»
masak rakudo: my $r = 1 / 7; say ($r * $r).nude.perl
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«(1, 49)␤»
Frida i'm not following at all.. am i supose to do that?
masak kinda ;)
but I can explain.
this last bit.
Frida tnx
masak when I go '1 / 7', I get an object called a Rat. 11:27
that's short for 'rational number'.
Frida i dont know if you are talking about youre work here or math..
masak a bit of both ;)
Frida oki
masak ok, so a Rat.
that's a number like x/y
it has a numerator (x) and a denominator (y). 11:28
Frida mhmm.
masak and you can ask for them separately.
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masak rakudo: say 1/3 + 1/4 11:28
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«0.583333333333333␤»
masak rakudo: say (1/3 + 1/4).perl
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«7/12␤»
jnthn rakudo: say (1/3 + 1/4).nude 11:29
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«7 12␤»
masak Perl 6 is a bit special because it actually counts using Rats.
most other languages count using floating point, which are just a bunch of decimals.
and so precision often gets lost.
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masak this is actually a big problem! 11:29
think of people building bank systems and stuff, and precision gets lost.
not enough people know about the "dangers" of floating point. 11:30
Frida ahh, so you are trying to show me how you buildt your language? and you buidt it using regular math?
masak yes!
Perl 6 thinks more like people think.
Frida yay!! that's soo cool..
masak you know how on your calculator you can do 1 / 9 * 9
and you get back .9999999
that can't happen in Perl 6. because precision is never lost in that way. 11:31
Frida okej..
masak :)
Frida but what is perl buildt to do?
masak just solve people's problems in general.
Frida problems with what? 11:32
masak it's "general-purpose" so it can really do anything.
but it has a number of strengths, of course.
Frida and those are?
masak Frida: anything, basically. building a web site. making a budget. chatting with friends.
anything a computer does.
oh, the strengths? 11:33
dalek ast: c48ba58 | (Pawel Pabian)++ | S12-methods/multi.t:
[t/S12-methods/multi.t] test for #68996: [BUG] $.foo attribute generates non-multi methods
masak Perl 6 is good at understanding text.
jnthn bbkr: That test doesn't pass for the reason you think it does. Also, I'm not sure I agree with the ticket. 11:34
Frida okej..
masak rakudo: "Frida does math" ~~ /$<subject>=[\w*] \s+ $<verb>=[\w*] \s+ $object=[\w*]/; say $<object>
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Method 'rxtype' not found for invocant of class 'PAST;Regex'␤»
jnthn bbkr: It passes because if there's already a method in the class with the appropriate name, the automatic accessor method is not generated.
masak dang :)
b: "Frida does math" ~~ /$<subject>=[\w*] \s+ $<verb>=[\w*] \s+ $object=[\w*]/; say $<object>
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "\"Frida doe"␤»
jnthn masak: $<object>=...
masak b: "Frida does math" ~~ /$<subject>=[\w*] \s+ $<verb>=[\w*] \s+ $<object>=[\w*]/; say $<object>
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«math␤» 11:35
masak \o/
Frida: you see, it could pick out the object of that sentence.
slightly silly example, I know. but it can do a lot of that, and it helps when parsing text.
Frida i see..
tadzik it may look hard to get right :)
Frida den tolkat alltså?
masak japp.
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masak Frida: oh, I'll show you a cool one. 11:36
Frida do it..
masak Frida: you know how there's all these operators: + - * / and so on.
Frida yes
masak but sometimes you'd want a new one, that isn't defined yet.
like, say I want !
and I want N! to mean 1 * 2 * 3 * ... * N 11:37
bbkr jnthn: so if skipping accessor when method is present is desired behavior maybe I should add another line with dies_ok { $a.foo } to prove it?
masak rakudo: sub postfix:<!>($N) { [*] 1..$N }; say 5!
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "say 5!"␤»
masak rakudo: our sub postfix:<!>($N) { [*] 1..$N }; say 5!
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "say 5!"␤»
masak huh.
b: our sub postfix:<!>($N) { [*] 1..$N }; say 5!
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«120␤»
masak \o/
b: say 5! 11:38
bbkr jnthn: I mean to proove that no multi method is generated from attribute
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "say 5!"␤»
masak Frida: so, you see, I've actually changed the language to have '!'
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masak Frida: and I can add any operators I want. 11:39
Frida eand just change the language?
masak aye.
Frida nice!
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jnthn bbkr: Well, but the answer isn't that no multi method is generated. It's more that no method at all is generated. 11:40
bbkr: e.g. you could drop "multi" and get the same effect
Frida you can change it any way you like.. 11:41
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masak also, this is pretty nice: 11:41
rakudo: my $a = 3; if $a == 1 | 3 | 5 { say "it's one or three or five" }
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«it's one or three or five␤»
bbkr jnthn: correcting it now. thanks for pointing this out.
masak in other languages, you'd have to say 'if $a == 1 || $a == 3 || $a == 5'... 11:42
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masak rakudo: my $a = 3; if $a == any(1, 3, 5) { say "it's one or three or five" } 11:42
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«it's one or three or five␤»
masak rakudo: say (1..6).roll 11:44
p6eval rakudo 00a115: OUTPUT«4␤»
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masak Frida: I wrote a bunch of games this summer, to teach people Perl 6. here's one of them: strangelyconsistent.org/blog/june-5...s-a-number 11:44
jnthn bbkr: thanks :) 11:45
Frida i'm not sure if i understand how to play? 11:46
masak unfortunately, that's not possible on the site itself. 11:47
(though that's an *awesome( idea; thank you) :)
masak wonders how hard it'd be to craft a Niecza backend that could translate all of his June games to JavaScript 11:48
maybe minus the adventure game.
tadzik masak: try perlito maybe?
I think it has a javascript backend
masak tadzik: yes! nice! 11:49
Frida: no, I mostly wanted you to look at the source code. that's how a small game looks.
Frida: I also wrote a moon lander, a cookie-eating game, hangman, connect-4, and a biggish adventure game.
srsly, being able to play the games right in the blog posts would be a really nice feature. 11:50
Frida++
:)
Frida i remember when we buildt games when we were kids.. and those were so much bigger. 11:51
masak yeah.
though the adventure game got pretty big.
Frida i'm sry if my english is worseless..
masak hugs Frida 11:52
it's not worseless :P
Frida: anyway, it was cool to have you stop by and listen to me ramble about my hobby ;) 11:53
Frida have i told you that i'm maybe studying thins spring instead of working?
masak yes! great news!
Frida yes.. i lika it..
dalek ast: 9300933 | (Pawel Pabian)++ | S12-methods/multi.t:
[t/S12-methods/multi.t] test for #68996, corrected reason why test passes
 11:54
masak Frida: best of luck with Högskoleprovet
Frida but i am very in to bio medicin..
masak you are? that's, like, my field!
siblings are s'posed to diversify! :P
Frida i'm probobly not gonna do it.. i just thoutg it would be fun to study some math.. ^^
JimmyZ 晚上好，#perl6
masak JimmyZ: 你好! 11:55
tadzik is that "ni hao"?
masak Frida: it's always fun to study some math. ^^
JimmyZ masak: 下午好，麦高
masak tadzik: 是 :)
tadzik that'd be "yes" I suppose
masak tadzik: 是 :P
tadzik oh, now it can mean "no" as well :) 11:56
masak tadzik: 是!
guess that disambiguated it.
tadzik phenny: "是"?
phenny tadzik: "Be" (zh-CN to en, translate.google.com)
jnthn tadzik: iiuc, there's no "yes"/"no" words in Mandarin.
masak correct.
tadzik Be
jnthn You can just use verbs and maybe negate them
"is!"
"not is!" 11:57
masak "to be", or "is".
jnthn er...is not :)
tadzik oh, ok
masak jnthn: or just "not".
tadzik masak: are you a human?
masak tadzik: 不是
tadzik damnit
masak ;)
jnthn o.O
masak floats
tadzik basing on the meaning of the latter, that could mean "wannaBe"
masak wannabe human... 11:58
JimmyZ or woman
masak woman is 女人
Frida carl: did you listen to the songs?
masak Frida: oh! I forgot. will do so now. 11:59
Frida do it..
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masak listens 12:00
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masak Frida: I'm sorry, that sounds completely bland to me... :/ 12:00
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Frida okej.. 12:01
masak I think we'll have to realize that we have almost completely non-overlapping tastes in music.
;)
tadzik richard cheese is usually a common language :P
Frida yes i know..
masak Frida: have you listened to Justin Bieber 800%?
Frida: also, Richard Cheese is a good choice. tadzik++
Frida nope? is that on spotify? 12:02
tadzik I hope Frida is not young enough to be negatively impacted by Richard :)
masak Frida: I'll try to find it. 12:03
tadzik: I think you're about the same age, actually.
tadzik having an 18 year older sister I have a flawed view of "younger sibling"
oh, ok
masak Frida: soundcloud.com/vorophobe/justin-bie...d-down-800 12:04
Frida: and Richard Cheese is aplenty on Spotify.
Frida haha.. my brother has always taken good care of my.. our sister were worse.. she forced me to do things so that i wouldn't blabber to our parents.. pretty smart acctually..
*of me 12:05
haha
masak this is news to me :P 12:06
Frida really?? 12:07
bbkr Can OpenSolaris tickets #69466, #69464 and #69480 be closed if OpenSolaris system has been discontinued on 2010-08-13? I doubt that someone wants to install abandoned OS to check if those bugs are fixed.
tadzik I remember asking that question some time ago :) 12:08
masak bbkr: if you ask me, then yes.
bbkr: but it might be one of those where pmichaud has a say.
Frida but she would never do any thing verry bad of her self so probably it was'nt to bad for me either.. but the differens in what you do of "bad things" when you are 12 och 17 years old is pretty big.. 12:09
masak Frida: I'm kinda on the verge of asking you to stay on topic now... :P 12:10
Frida huh?
bbkr masak: I agree, those are zombie tickets. but I'll wait for pmichaud opinion.
masak Frida: you might be a one-time visitor here, but I'm not. :)
Frida oekj..
sry
masak np 12:11
hugme: hug Frida
hugme hugs Frida
masak (yes, we have a bot for giving out hugs)
Frida haha lovely..
tadzik troll.me/images/forever-alone/-forever-alone.jpg :)
masak Frida: I think you would make a great Perl 6 coder.
tadzik: I don't get it. 12:12
bbkr hugme: hug bugs
hugme hugs bugs
masak hugme: hug Pugs
hugme hugs Pugs
tadzik masak: that's a reddit meme
Frida i'm not so sure about that.
masak tadzik: "forever alone"?
tadzik yep
that's what this face is called
masak hadn't heard about it.
Frida: Perl 6 is on the rise. you could ride the wave! :) 12:13
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jnthn masak: knowyourmeme.com/memes/forever-alone knows, of course... ;) 12:13
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tadzik hugme: hugme 12:15
hugme tadzik:
jnthn A...cruel prank.
masak oh course!
tadzik eek
hugme: hug me
hugme hugs tadzik
tadzik there we go :)
it's like Like'ing your own posts on diaspora :P
jnthn tadzik: I try and fix the Pes bug today...want to get the roles stuff cleared up first, though. 12:17
tadzik cute
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masak jnthn: Pies! :P 12:20
(or is the bug a missing 'i'?)
jnthn masak: :P 12:21
masak: No, I was just spelling it correctly ;)
masak damn haughty Slovak snobbery.
obviously the "correct" spelling would be Пес :P 12:22
tadzik oh, for the love of Dog... 12:23
masak 狗狗
jnthn masak: Apart from it'd be собака :P
masak jnthn: yeah, well. apart from that.
jnthn Oh, apparently пес works also... 12:24
masak huh!
JimmyZ 藏獒
tadzik sobaka?
Frida iäm leaving..
masak Frida: o/
Frida: really nice to have you stop by!
tadzik Frida: see you soon :) 12:25
Frida nice to see how you work..
we'll do..
masak Frida: yeah, you come back soon!
"work"... :P
tadzik yeah...
Frida haha..
12:25 Frida left
masak relaxes a bit :) 12:26
tadzik (:
so, is she cute? :P
masak hey!
jnthn *lol*
tadzik easy, just kidding :) 12:27
masak well, I guess I could do worse for a brother-in-law...
tadzik hey!
masak :P
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bbkr masak: rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=69518 - is this expected behavior? 12:34
jnthn bbkr: Looks right to me, fwiw. 12:35
Could awesomize the error a little. 12:36
(to include the name of the type)
But that aside, it's refusing to instantiate a subtype.
masak aye. 12:37
bbkr should I write test and close or rename to "LTA error message" issue
jnthn bbkr: Write a couple of tests. One that it works, another that the error contains the type name.
masak I say the ticket as it stands is closable (after tests)
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masak I'm not a fan of changing the identity of tickets mid-course. 12:37
jnthn Aye
But it'd be good to remember there's a task to do 12:38
masak aye.
I'm all for leaving some trace of the LTA thing.
jnthn Though, if anybody knows a little little C they can diddle src/6model/reprs/uninstantiable.c's instance_of
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masak also, bbkr++ for triaging tickets. 12:38
bbkr page 4 of 18 :) 12:39
dalek kudo/nom: a3d7c53 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Refactor to ensure we'll be able to tell which parametric role was picked once we get there from a multi-dispatch.
 12:42
kudo/nom: 3c62969 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/ParametricRoleGroupHOW.pm:
Get ParametricRoleGroupHOW's specialize method in shape.
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JimmyZ looks like src/utils is very old in rakudo :) 13:12
jnthn oh my :) 13:13
tadzik++ may have something to say about the way forward for what's in there :)
JimmyZ that's 2008, I never realized there was a src/utils dir, hehe 13:14
tadzik hm? 13:16
oh my, perldoc in pir
jnthn :D
tadzik and it's PCT 13:17
jnthn wow :)
tadzik the parser is actually pretty similar to mine 13:18
well, mine uses less backtracking
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tadzik chromatic and particle wrote that, it seems 13:20
JimmyZ it may be historical legacy
tadzik in 2008
masak "it is the year two THOUSAND" 13:21
tadzik we are robots!
masak affirmative.
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masak quick poll: in perl6.org/compilers/features for nom and Niecza respectively, what is according to you the most glaring missing feature? 13:30
tadzik working Pies :>
oh, there is Swedish as a language on my university! 13:31
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jnthn masak: nom's lacking of good coverage of the regex/grammar stuff 13:32
masak tadzik: don't learn Swedish. hardly anyone speaks it.
tadzik but I know english already 13:33
masak tadzik: learn to read Shakespeare instead. much more worthwhile.
gives depth to one's English knowledge.
tadzik mebbe
colomon Working Pies would definitely be a major lack from both of those compilers. 13:34
masak "Oh Romeo, .WHEREFORE art thou Romeo?"
colomon Is "working Actions" not even on the feature list? It's a *huge* hole in nom as far as I'm concerned. 13:35
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masak doesn't seem to be on the list. 13:36
it should definitely be, in my opinion.
jnthn colomon: I'd lumped that in with the general grammar/regex stuff.
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jnthn But yeah, worth an entry. 13:36
jnthn hopes pmichaud finds his regex tuits soon ;) 13:37
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JimmyZ does too 13:44
jnthn eh well, it took me long enough to find my parametric role ones...
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masak rakudo: class InstanceMethod { has $.instance; has $.methodname; method postcircumfix:<( )>(\$c) { $.instance."$.methodname"(|$c) } }; my $m = InstanceMethod.new(:instance[2, 4, 6], :methodname<roll>); say $m(5) 13:50
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«4 4 2 2 6␤»
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masak \o/ 13:50
forgive me, but that is *so* *cool*. 13:51
jnthn masak: why \$c, not just $c? 13:52
But yes, it's cool :) 13:53
JimmyZ yes, it's so cool && magic, most people will be confused :)
masak jnthn: I don't know, I thought I'd need to mark it as a signature somehow. I probably don't. 13:54
JimmyZ: really? what's confusing about it? I'm just detatching naming what instance and method to call, from actually calling it :P
JimmyZ rakudo: class InstanceMethod { has $.instance; has $.methodname; method postcircumfix:<( )>(\$c) { $.instance."$.methodname"(|$) } }; my $m = InstanceMethod.new(:instance[2, 4, 6], :methodname<roll>); say $m(5)
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Contextual $*GOAL not found␤»
jnthn masak: postcircumfix:<( )> always gets passed a capture. 13:55
JimmyZ wonders how to debug 'Contextual $*GOAL not found' :)
masak JimmyZ: I think you found a bug.
rakudo: class A { method x { self.x(|$) } }; say "alive"
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Contextual $*GOAL not found␤»
masak rakudo: sub f { f(|$) }; say "alive" 13:56
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Contextual $*GOAL not found␤»
masak submits rakudobug
jnthn: right. I was being superstitious.
jnthn b: sub f { f(|$) }; say "alive"
JimmyZ looks like I never like right way to use rakudo :) 13:57
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Contextual $*GOAL not found␤»
jnthn hm, not a regression then...
ruoso perl6: my $a = Routine.new(); $a.push(sub ($x, Int $y) { say 1 }); $a.push(sub ($x, Str $z, Str $q) { say 2 }); (1,1,"a","b",2,"v","d").reduce($a);
jnthn (Which makes sense...)
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«Method 'push' not found for invocant of class 'Routine'␤ in <anon> at /tmp/MvL_1ao_Kn:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/MvL_1ao_Kn:1␤␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** Can't modify constant item: VUndef␤ at /tmp/VzkhJKT3bh line 1, column 24-59␤»
..niecza v9-23-g1a8efca: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $x is declared but not used at /tmp/8BHJCIWlZq line 1:␤------> my $a = Routine.new(); $a.push(sub (⏏$x, Int $y) { say 1 }); $a.push(sub ($x,␤ $y is declared but not used at /tmp/8BHJCIWlZq line 1:␤------> a…
JimmyZ perl6: sub f { f(|$) }; say "alive"
p6eval niecza v9-23-g1a8efca: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Unsupported use of $) variable; in Perl 6 please use $*EGID at /tmp/ahGxc1cFd8 line 1:␤------> sub f { f(|$)⏏ }; say "alive"␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected ")"␤ expecting "::"␤ at /tmp/gxthySR7WO line 1, column 13␤»
..rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Contextual $*GOAL not found␤»
JimmyZ std: sub f { f(|$) }; say "alive" 13:58
p6eval std bb4f150: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $) variable; in Perl 6 please use $*EGID at /tmp/GVQwdrNgrz line 1:␤------> sub f { f(|$)⏏ }; say "alive"␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
ruoso I guess #68774 needs a substitute :)
jnthn ruoso: Well, the entire way multi stuff works has changed. There's no way you're going to be able to just instantiate Routine and push stuff onto it. 13:59
masak ruoso! \o/
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jnthn nom: sub proto_factory() { my proto foo(|$) { * } }; my $x = proto_factory(); $x.add_dispatchee(sub ($a) { say "1 arg" }); $x.add_dispatchee(sub ($a, $b) { say "2 args }); $x(1); $x(1,2) 14:01
p6eval nom 3c6296: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 1␤»
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jnthn hm, where's the syntax error... :) 14:01
oh! 14:02
nom: sub proto_factory() { my proto foo(|$) { * } }; my $x = proto_factory(); $x.add_dispatchee(sub ($a) { say "1 arg" }); $x.add_dispatchee(sub ($a, $b) { say "2 args" }); $x(1); $x(1,2)
p6eval nom 3c6296: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤===SORRY!===␤error:imcc:syntax error, unexpected '\n'␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 15798857␤␤»
jnthn eek.
nom: sub proto_factory() { my $x = proto foo(|$) { * }; $x }; my $x = proto_factory(); $x.add_dispatchee(sub ($a) { say "1 arg" }); $x.add_dispatchee(sub ($a, $b) { say "2 args" }); $x(1); $x(1,2)
p6eval nom 3c6296: OUTPUT«1 arg␤2 args␤»
ruoso hmm... but why wouldn't I bee able to just instantiate Routine? 14:03
jnthn ruoso: Why *would* you be able to?
You don't specify anything to go in $!do
And the "this is a dispatcher" flag won't get set either 14:04
ruoso maybe there needs to be a mandatory parameter to the initialization, yes
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jnthn Well, but that mandatory parameter is kinda...weird. What lives in $!do is highly backend specific. 14:04
And implementation specific.
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jnthn I'm not even sure what you'd pass. :) 14:05
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ruoso Well, maybe the default should be to do the same thing as your code did.. 14:05
but with all the meta stuff, I would expect to be able to perform all this in the level of the objects and methods 14:06
jnthn Well, I kinda did, if you see that dummy proto as a constructor. ;) 14:07
ruoso well, that's the Perl 6 syntax to initalize it
jnthn Maybe a Routine.new_onlystar_dispatcher()
ruoso I would think that whatever the compiler uses should be available to the user too 14:08
at least if I was to build a class from scratch, I would expect my new class to be no different than a class generated by the compiler 14:09
jnthn Yeah, that's much less of an issue. 14:10
The tricky bit with routines is the underlying, VM-level coderef.
benabik What's the problem with just using pointy blocks? 14:11
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jnthn benabik: That's a Perl 6 code object. 14:11
(if you're talking about, what does in $!do)
ruoso benabik: my question is actually how to get the pointy blocks and compose them into a single multi at run-time
benabik ruoso: Ahh... 14:12
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jnthn I guess we could do a constructor for routine that takes a pointy block and just steals its body and signature. 14:12
A constructor that creates an onlystar style dispatcher is probably also worthwhile.
ruoso why can't it be an "empty" routine? 14:13
jnthn ruoso: What's going to get run when you invoke it?
ruoso nothing
jnthn ruoso: How is that useful?
ruoso you could even raise an exception if you try to run an "empty" routine
jnthn :)
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ruoso it's just the thing you get to add the candidates later 14:13
jnthn I'm still confused. 14:14
ruoso Ok, let me get the background on this again...
jnthn When you invoke a proto, it has a body that enters the multi-dispatcher.
ruoso this use case came from the catalyst-like web dispatching framework
basically, it will take some specification of action-chains, based on a reduce of multi-dispatch 14:15
so the framework takes the specification and build the multi
and then invokes the multi with the URL split by / as arguments 14:16
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ruoso (which will later bring the "reduce with variable-length-signature-multi" problem) 14:16
jnthn Yeah, that one is still unresolved. 14:17
There was some handwaving about captures being cursor-ish, then no spec changes.
ruoso that was the reasoning for the first sketches on Iterators
you would be able to iterate a capture 14:18
masak .WALK &
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jnthn ruoso: Yeah. I never really liked any of that line of thougth. 14:19
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jnthn It's like, "let's take this thing that needs to be fast because we do it a lot. Now let's make it even more complex!" 14:19
I agree that Routine (well, Code in general) probably needs some more useful constructors, though. 14:20
But I'm reluctant on Routine.new() magically giving back something with an onlystar dispatcher in it. 14:21
Maybe Routine.new(:dispatcher) can do that 14:22
ruoso that looks like a sane API 14:23
btw... about the reduce... maybe the complexity needs to be in the code for reduce, not on Capture
jnthn That'd be more comfortable. 14:24
ruoso it would just take all signatures, try from the shorter to the longer
benabik I would assume you'd want to try longer sigs first so that ($a, $b) would match before (*@a) 14:27
Although if you have a slurpy as a candidate on variable length multi, you're probably asking to have problems.
ruoso *@a is the longest posible 14:28
jnthn Well, it's longest but also least specific, in a sense. 14:29
A normal multi-dispatch would consider the absolute match a better one than the slurpy one.
It's possible the answer really is "build a custom dispatcher"
Since Perl 6 multi-dispatch isn't a longest-matching based thing. 14:30
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masak rakudo: my @strings = <foo bar>; subset Foo of Str where { $_ ~~ any(@strings) }; for <foo OH NOES> { when Foo { say "$_ is a Foo" } } 14:48
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«foo is a Foo␤»
masak \o/
masak marks rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=95500 fixed
will simplify the crypt game a bit ;)
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jnthn masak: ah, a scoping bug 14:50
Glad to see that one fixed. :)
masak me too!
everything is just getting so *nice*! 14:51
I can see the potential, once nom can do all it can do now and then all Beijing can do...
jnthn Well, as you've discovered, we've regressed in some areas that still need fixing. But many bugs are gone too.
masak indeed.
my job is to root out the regressions, and any newly introduced bugs :)
I'll do this by running as much of my old scripts as possible on nom. 14:52
as many*
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pmurias sorear: what do you need ropes for? 14:53
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erez heya, t/02-embed/01-load.t fails with "Parse errors: No plan found in TAP output" error 14:54
jnthn masak: The odd fix is welcome too. ;-)
masak jnthn: I even did a few, two days ago ;)
erez cloned about 20 mins ago
jnthn masak: I know, I know ;) 14:55
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jnthn masak: And I was very happy to see them. :) 14:55
masak but yeah, I will dig in more times like that.
jnthn erez: Fails here too.
masak Perl 6 days FTW!
erez jnthn: ah.
masak dives into his macros branch 14:56
jnthn erez: Will look into it, though I'm deep in a bunch of other bits at the moment. 14:57
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erez jnthn: no worries, just to make sure I didn't do anything wrong 14:58
masak erez++ # pointing out test failures
moritz oh, I see at least one reason for the failure 14:59
will investigate when rakudo finishes compiling
erez masak: tx, I even ventured to look inside it, but that was a bit over my league. 15:01
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masak .oO( it was a bit out of my head ) 15:03
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erez what's the state of the Using Perl 6 book? How "finished" compared to the current status of Rakudo is it? 15:26
masak it's a bit neglected, and definitely not in a finished state at present. 15:28
we used to have regular meetings around it, but we don't anymore, for some reason.
seems to be a feedback cycle thing going on between lack of tuits and lack of clear finish state.
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felher masak: may i ask you a question about the code of your animal farm game? 15:29
masak felher: of course.
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felher masak: this for sure is a matter of taste but: lines 52 to 76, is there a reason you prefer the if-elseif-else chain to when/default? 15:31
masak of all the stylistic choices I made in that class, that's the question? :P
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masak looks 15:31
is github line numbering seriously broken for anyone else, by the way? 15:32
erez masak: where do you think is the biggest "hole" at the moment?
masak I have the numbers not lining up over here. (Chrome 13, Ubuntu)
felher masak: yeah, well, i just started to read your code and i won't ask any other than stylistic questions before i'm done :)
masak erez: been too long since I looked at it, to be honest. :/ 15:33
erez: I think there's a TODO list in the repository.
jnthn masak: It sometimes happens to me if I've got antying other than default text size.
masak oh!
jnthn: that fixed it, thanks.
felher: I tend to use given/when/default to test the various properties of one single thing. I tend to use if/elsif/else to test a cascade of conditions on different things. 15:34
dalek kudo/nom: b2e3176 | jonathan++ | src/ops/perl6.ops:
Documentation fix.
 15:35
kudo/nom: 056cf10 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/ (2 files):
Fix up handling of how protos are created for the role selection multi-dispatch.
kudo/nom: 8b57bb2 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/ParametricRoleHOW.pm:
Make parametric roles able to know about any shortname grouping they belong to (not set up yet, just the storage for it).
kudo/nom: da541a6 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Stub in code to add a role to its group at composition time, if needed.
kudo/nom: c0eae8c | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Correct method call.
kudo/nom: 9d3a2c8 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
Fix thinko in selector creation code.
kudo/nom: 6dbbf34 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/SymbolTable.pm:
Pass group parameter along when creating a meta-object.
jnthn Getting closer.
Fiddly thing is fiddly.
tadzik was it simplier in b?
felher masak: k, thnx :) 15:36
masak felher: it was a good question. thank *you*. :)
jnthn tadzik: Not much, if at all. And if it was, only because b cheated badly in various places. 15:37
tadzik I see
masak if (%!t{$!cp} // -> %, @ {;})({%!p}, @.e) -> $_ { # one of the advantages of Perl 6 is that it's so much more legible than Perl 5...
jnthn O.O
tadzik eew
felher masak: :D
masak complexity. it creeps up on you.
tadzik isn't that intentionally obfuscated? 15:38
masak no... :/
tadzik (%!t{$!cp} // -> %, @ {;})
why do you pass % and @ to an empty block?
jnthn It's a sig.
masak tadzik: because that's what I call it with right after that paren.
tadzik oh
jnthn There musta been a neater way to write that 15:39
It took me a while to parse :P
masak couldv'e factored the empty pblock out into a variable to make it clearer.
tadzik what is that supposed to be doing?
flussence
.oO( things like that are the reason I never abbreviate names in code any more... )
jnthn Why {%!p} and not just %!p?
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masak tadzik: pull out the player's trading callback, or if there isn't any, an empty thing. call it. 15:39
benabik masak: Why not just avoid the call if there is no callback? 15:40
tadzik oh, so it's an empty block, but it has to take parameters
masak jnthn: because of the p6l thread.
tadzik couldn't they be slurpy then? If the block doesn't care anyway
jnthn masak: ah
masak jnthn: can't trust the clients.
benabik: would've been better. at the time I was aiming for brevity.
tadzik: it could indeed've. 15:41
tadzik I'd probably go for sub(%, @) {} instead of -> %, @ {;}
looks more like... code :) 15:42
I can see the reasons why you'd write it that way though
masak over time, I'll probably re-write farm.pl not to be so darn abbreviated. 15:43
I still think the brevity was worthwhile to pull out the "essence" of the code.
but it's filled its purpose now. 15:44
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JimmyZ wonders what's different in a class betwwen my $foo and has $!foo 15:45
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JimmyZ my $foo is a static attr ? 15:46
jnthn JimmyZ: It's just a lexical.
masak JimmyZ: think of the scope and lifetime of the two.
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masak JimmyZ: 'has' scopes the variable within an instance. 'my' scopes the variable within the 'class' block. 15:47
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JimmyZ which looks like private static attr in Java? 15:47
jnthn JimmyZ: Yes, it'll have the same lifetime and scope. 15:48
JimmyZ thanks ;)
masak 'private static' is just a complicated way to say 'lexically scoped' in Java :P 15:49
jnthn "We have to pretend we're doing OO even when we're not!!!1!!"
masak steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/ex...nouns.html
JimmyZ rakudo: class A { our $foo = 40; } ; say A::$foo; 15:50
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "say A::$fo"␤»
jnthn $A::foo in Perl 6.
JimmyZ rakudo: class A { our $foo = 40; } ; say $A::foo;
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«40␤»
masak jnthn: and Perl 5, for that matter.
jnthn masak: oh :)
masak nihil novus sub sole ;) 15:51
JimmyZ rakudo: package B; class A { our $foo = 40; } ; say $B::A::foo;
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤This appears to be Perl 5 code. If you intended it to be Perl 6 code, please use a Perl 6 style package block like "package Foo { ... }", or "module Foo; ...". at line 1, near "class A { "␤»
tadzik rakudo: module B; class A { our $foo = 40; } ; say $B::A::foo; 15:52
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«40␤»
JimmyZ speaking of package and module, I never understatnd whtat's the difference
tadzik why do we even have 'package'
JimmyZ I tried to understand, but I was finally confused 15:53
rakudo: package B { class A { our $foo = 40; } ; }; say $B::A::foo; 15:54
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«40␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: class B::A { our $foo = 40; } ; say $B::A::foo;
p6eval rakudo 3c6296: OUTPUT«40␤»
masak tadzik: a module is a package with a few extras.
tadzik: things like auth and ver, IIRC.
JimmyZ that's why I was confused
masak tadzik: oh, and export semantics.
tadzik optional
so it's a superset? 15:55
masak yes.
JimmyZ package is a superset ?
masak just like a class is a superset of a module, in a way.
no, module is a superset.
JimmyZ class is a superset of module? I thought module is superset of class 15:56
jnthn Package also fills the "we didn't define anything with this name yet, but need a stash here" role.
JimmyZ I thought package > module > class
jnthn class Foo::Bar { } # Foo is a package 15:57
masak JimmyZ: what gave you the idea that a package is more powerful than a *class*?
JimmyZ package can have many class :) 15:58
masak o.O
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jnthn Well, only in the sense that a class can have many classes... :) 15:58
Here's how it works. Every type has a .WHO slot. Off this hangs a Stash.
JimmyZ class Foo::Bar { } # Foo is a package # I understand this one
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jnthn So Foo::Bar is really Foo.WHO.<Bar> 15:59
JimmyZ and module?
jnthn If you had class Foo { }; class Foo::Bar { }, Foo.WHO.<Bar> still works just the same. The only difference is that Foo has a different meta-object. 16:00
Same story for module. Just a different meta-object.
package is just a bit more special to the compiler
because it knows not to while about redefinition.
s/while/whine/
nom: module Foo { }; class Foo { } 16:01
p6eval nom 6dbbf3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Illegal redeclaration of class 'Foo' at line 1, near "{ }"␤»
jnthn nom: package Foo { }; class Foo { }
p6eval nom 6dbbf3: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤Use of uninitialized value in string context␤===SORRY!===␤error:imcc:Multiple declarations of lexical 'Foo'␤␤ in file '(file unknown)' line 119␤»
jnthn f**k.
JimmyZ so class > module > package ?
jnthn JimmyZ: You could see it like that
masak submits rakudobug
jnthn JimmyZ: But it's really not factored that way at all.
JimmyZ which is wrongly reverse by me :)
jnthn I think Moose does factor it more like that for real. 16:02
JimmyZ there are few testcase about module and package 16:03
jnthn Phew, I've got the setting build to work again... 16:04
dalek kudo/nom: 6238f80 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/ParametricRoleGroupHOW.pm:
Various corrections to the role group meta-object.
 16:05
kudo/nom: 02ee1c4 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
Be sure to configure stashing for parametric roles.
jnthn Now I just have to fix everything else...
JimmyZ rakudo: module Foo; package bar { class hi { our $lo = 'hi' } }; say $Foo::bar::hi::lo; 16:07
p6eval rakudo 6dbbf3: OUTPUT«hi␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: package bar { module Foo; class hi { our $lo = 'hi' } };
p6eval rakudo 6dbbf3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Too late for semicolon form of $*PKGDECL definition at line 1, near "class hi {"␤»
tadzik TOO LATE FOR SEMICOLON!
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jnthn That $*PKGDECL looks wrong. 16:08
JimmyZ rakudo: package bar { class hi { our $lo = 'hi' } }; module Foo
p6eval rakudo 6dbbf3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse $*PKGDECL definition at line 1, near ""␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: package bar { class hi { our $lo = 'hi' } }; module Foo;
p6eval rakudo 6dbbf3: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Too late for semicolon form of $*PKGDECL definition at line 1, near ""␤»
jnthn wtf 16:09
<.panic: "Too late for semicolon form of $*PKGDECL definition">
...that's a double-quoted string!
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JimmyZ and "Unable to parse $*PKGDECL definition"? 16:09
jnthn nqpbug maybe
JimmyZ found it's easy to find a bug :) 16:10
jnthn If only we had more people who found it easy to fix a bug. :)
JimmyZ hehe 16:11
masak we should have a training programme.
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JimmyZ because I'm still a newbie 16:14
snarkyboojum me three 16:15
jnthn wonders how best to do that
snarkyboojum jnthn: fly us to sweden and buy lots of beer :) 16:16
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snarkyboojum or not… :P 16:22
jnthn Norway aside, Sweden might just be about the most expensive place to get beer :) 16:23
snarkyboojum jnthn: homebrew! :P
jnthn We should do it in Prague. It's beautiful and has cheap, good beer. ;)
tadzik there is a district in Warsaw called Prague 16:24
but it's famous more for crime than for cheap beer :) 16:25
jnthn tadzik: Aww. 16:26
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TimToady perl6: package bar { module Foo; class hi { our $lo = 'hi' } }; 17:07
p6eval rakudo 02ee1c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Too late for semicolon form of $*PKGDECL definition at line 1, near "class hi {"␤»
..pugs: ( no output )
..niecza v9-23-g1a8efca: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Too late for semicolon form of module definition at /tmp/F7Y6a_Ynjb line 1:␤------> package bar { module Foo⏏; class hi { our $lo = 'hi' } };␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
jnthn Phew. The "multiple roles with same shortname" thing looks like it's gonna make it through spectest... 17:10
TimToady all classes can work like a module, and all modules can work like a package, whether or not it is implemented with inheritance
yay
jnthn TimToady: Agree. In Rakudo, we just happen to implement it with role composition.
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jnthn TimToady: class composes all the roles module does, and some more. 17:10
TimToady is fine by me 17:11
but we still have some massive re-education to for those who see inheritance as their hammer 17:12
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jnthn Aye. But I think they'll encounter it in many places before they get to thinking about the meta-objects behind package/module. ) 17:14
:)
Learning to use roles effectively certainly takes time though. 17:15
I used to explain them in terms of things they were like. I've kinda moved on to explaining factoring problems and showing how roles help.
dalek kudo/nom: 3b6cd2b | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (3 files):
Allow flagging of signatured roles.
 17:16
kudo/nom: 7399cd6 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/ (2 files):
Fill out more missing bits in ParametricRoleGroupHOW.
kudo/nom: e259b60 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
Switch role handling over to a model that allows multiple definitions of a role with the same short name, and using multiple dispatch over the role signatures to decide which to use.
kudo/nom: 2fd2d26 | jonathan++ | NOMMAP.markdown:
Update nommap.
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jnthn Phew. That was some work... 17:17
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masak commit coming up. 17:52
dalek kudo/nom: 2b13fe4 | masak++ | src/core/IO.pm:
[src/core/IO.pl] lazily open things before .get

This is to make something like "README".IO.lines work. It worked in Beijing.
masak I did spectest it and it passed, but I wouldn't mind someone reviewing that commit anyway.
I needed it to get June-blogging hangman to run.
maybe a spectest for it would've been in order as well, I dunno.
jnthn +1 to spectest 17:55
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jnthn Best to have semantics tested. 17:55
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masak if no-one beats me to it, I'll do it after supper. 17:57
the test would be basically lives_ok { my $line = "some_file".IO.get } 17:58
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moritz rakudo: say 'README'.IO.lines.elems 18:20
p6eval rakudo 2fd2d2: OUTPUT«Method 'readline' not found for invocant of class 'Mu'␤ in method get at src/gen/CORE.setting:4714␤ in sub coro at src/gen/CORE.setting:3765␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3735␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3539␤ in method gimme at src/gen…
moritz rakudo: say 'rakudo/README'.IO.lines.elems
p6eval rakudo 2fd2d2: OUTPUT«Method 'readline' not found for invocant of class 'Mu'␤ in method get at src/gen/CORE.setting:4714␤ in sub coro at src/gen/CORE.setting:3765␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3735␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:3539␤ in method gimme at src/gen…
moritz rakudo: say 'rakudo/README'.IO.get
p6eval rakudo 2fd2d2: OUTPUT«Method 'readline' not found for invocant of class 'Mu'␤ in method get at src/gen/CORE.setting:4714␤ in <anon> at /tmp/EFBX62j1Z7:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/EFBX62j1Z7:1␤␤»
dalek kudo/nom: 6da1f55 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
If an attribute has a build closure, we should always consider it as needing generic instantiation, since it may reference role arguments.
 18:24
kudo/nom: c994628 | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
We now pass S14-roles/parameterized-basic.t.
kudo/nom: cb570dd | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Fix thinko.
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masak static_perl: hi 19:24
static_perl hi
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masak Perl 6 is static. and dynamic. :) 19:25
static_perl hehe is my old nick .. don't mind it :D
and I am very new to perl6, trying to figure out what it is still 19:26
masak too :)
dalek kudo/nom: 3da8879 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Fix R[R2[Foo]] style role parameterizations.
 19:27
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jnthn nmake 19:29
grr
ww
masak *** No such target: grr ww 19:30
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jnthn nmake masak quiet :P 19:30
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masak ... 19:38
jnthn
.oO( it worked for a while :) )
Hm. We ignored "Foo of Bar" style type names. Hope that hasn't led to some accidental OK-ness in places... 19:39
sorear good * #perl6 19:40
phenny sorear: 10:25Z <snarkyboojum> tell sorear having fun trying to build Niecza on OS X -> gist.github.com/1209432
sorear: 10:26Z <snarkyboojum> tell sorear using RUN_CLR=mono coredumps
masak *, #perl6
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sorear masak: I'm very dubious of the potential for a Perl 6 Javascript translator. NQP-JS I could imagine, but Perl 6 has too many fiddly semantic bits, like containers and coroutines, to support a direct 19:42
jnthn would love a JS backend for NQP 19:45
sorear hey awesome, ruoso lives
pmurias: ropes are for Str
masak sorear: I just want to run my June games in the browser. 19:46
sorear snarkyboojum: your gist is insufficiently informative. I would like a dialog.
jnthn masak: It just involves writing a Perl 6 => JavaScript compiler good enough to run them ;) 19:47
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dalek kudo/nom: 119eef2 | jonathan++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Handle 'Glass of Beer' style type names.
 20:03
kudo/nom: d617c32 | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
We now pass S14-roles/parameterized-type.t.
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dalek ast: 5dd2557 | (Pawel Pabian)++ | S02-lexical-conventions/unicode.t:
[t/S02-lexical-conventions/unicode.t] test for #69959 - unicode named params
 20:09
pmurias sorear: would using ropes for Str make sense from a performance point? 20:10
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pmurias masak: the problem with Perl6 on JS is that in order to support features like junctions, coroutines, containers etc. you have to sacrifice performance by adding an extra layer on top of the runtime 20:20
masak: or have a sofisticated analysis phase to strip such stuff 20:21
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masak nod 20:22
dalek kudo/nom: 025b5a6 | jonathan++ | src/core/traits.pm:
Implement 'is default' trait for routines.
kudo/nom: 90a619c | jonathan++ | t/spectest.data:
We now pass S12-methods/default-trait.t.
masak jnthn++
pmurias masak: the more important problem with the js backend is that it would split effort 20:24
masak I'm just going to see how far I get with perlito
pmurias it's better to have one decent backend then a dozen ones which are not good enough
masak agree. 20:25
pmurias and niecza has quite a few opcodes so writing a backend for that is not a trivial thing (as opposed to Perlito which has a relatively simple AST) 20:27
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im2ee masak, how do You do? :) 20:37
bbkr nom: class A { method !private { say "p" } }; my $a = A.new; $a!private # known regression or fresh NOM bug?
p6eval nom 3da887: OUTPUT«Method 'find_private_method' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::Metamodel::PackageHOW'␤ in method dispatch:<!> at src/gen/CORE.setting:641␤ in <anon> at /tmp/DFDiWiwKth:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/DFDiWiwKth:1␤␤»
masak im2ee: Dzień dobry, panie. Czuję się dobrze. Jak się masz? 20:38
im2ee masak, great polish! :)
masak, świetnie mówisz po polsku :) 20:39
masak :)
bbkr masak: doskonała polszczyzna
masak sirs, you are too kind. 20:40
but it's not *that* hard to use Google Translate... ;)
mostly one has to have a feeling for what one can put in that doesn't come out jumbled or wrongly translated. 20:41
im2ee right :)
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masak Lubię język polski. Chciałbym mówić w tym języku. 20:42
im2ee masak, where are You from? ;>
bbkr should $class_instance!private_method be accessible from outside class? I remember some discussion about it, however I cannot find the logs or exact spec section.
masak im2ee: .se
im2ee masak, skąd pochodzisz? :)
masak bbkr: no. 20:43
bbkr: unless trust has been established.
im2ee masak, sweden? No way.. :) I love Scandinavia. I dream about go there! :) 20:44
And i learn finnish :)
Do You know finnish?
pmurias im2ee: which city are you from?
masak im2ee: ei.
im2ee pmurias, hmm, it's small city near Toruń.
:)
bbkr im2ee: Lysomice? Papowo? 20:45
im2ee bbkr, no. Why? :)
masak im2ee: he wants to drive over and knock on your door :P 20:46
bbkr im2ee: trying to guess, I lived 10 years in Torun
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im2ee masak, if You are in Poland, You can live with me. :) 20:47
Do you want to go to pl? :)
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im2ee bbkr, near Papowo. :) 20:47
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bbkr im2ee: from what I know those terrains merged into user-friendly-named "Papowo-torunskie Osieki" since Sharp built factories there. 20:50
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im2ee bbkhmm, right. :) 20:51
bbkr, hmm, right. :)
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im2ee bbkr, where are You now? :) 20:54
Not in pl? :)
masak im2ee: thanks for the offer ;)
bbkr im2ee: Gdansk. 20:55
im2ee bbkr, so... On this channel there are many poles as i see :) 20:56
masak that's what you get if you cover the whole complex plane. :P
bbkr im2ee: this is because perl scripts ends with .pl :) 20:59
im2ee hah, True. :)
bbkr, are You studying in Gdansk? :) 21:02
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bbkr im2ee: I was, and that was the reason why i left Torun. 21:06
pmurias studies in Wrocław
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masak meh, perlcabal.org/~fglock/perlito.html parsefails on strangelyconsistent.org/blog/june-5...s-a-number 21:09
should I tell fglock?
it's so strange that he's working on a Perl 6 compiler, but he's never around!
im2ee pmurias, i want to to study in Wrocław .:)
bbkr im2ee: after graduating in Gdansk I went to PJWSTK (polish-japaneese school in warsaw), but the amount of Java there was too much to handle. Instead of performing simple tasks I was object-puking.
im2ee: Gdansk (3City in general) has more to offer when it comes to work in IT. 21:11
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dalek ast: ec2194c | masak++ | S16-filehandles/io.t:
[S16-filehandles/io.t] test for 2b13fe in Rakudo
 21:11
im2ee bbkr, and what about Sląsk? :) 21:13
like Gliwice etc.
I don't exactly know where i should go. :) 21:14
masak phenny: se en "slask"? 21:15
phenny masak: "slask" (se to en, translate.google.com)
masak dang.
in Swedish, "slask" means something like "semi-wet waste material".
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masak but the pronunciation in Polish is quite different due to the ą. 21:15
shinobicl_ hi, how much ram do i need to comple the new rakudo (nom) ?
compile* 21:16
masak shinobicl_: I don't know exact numbers, but the more the better.
so as to avoid swapping.
shinobicl_ i tried to compile the new version with 466 mb with --gen-parrot, wasn't enough :( 21:17
bbkr im2ee: Forget about Slask. there are two IT valleys - Krakow and 3City. So if you want to study in Wroclaw prepare to move to Krakow after you graduate, because Wroclaw has good university but pretty small jobs market.
im2ee bbkr, thanks. :) 21:18
masak sounds like a sweet deal. Krakow is a beautiful town, with dragons and everything. 21:19
plus, from what I understand it's where all the culture happens.
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masak even Warsawians go to Krakow for some social life. 21:19
im2ee masak, it's true i think.. I was in Krak􏿽xF3w only twice, but there is beautiful :) 21:23
bbkr masak: Krakow was capital of the Poland in the past.
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im2ee masak, as i heard there is polish branch of google. bbkr right? 21:24
:)
masak sorear: ping
bbkr: aye. that's why it has such a nice castle.
and dragons. 21:25
bbkr im2ee: I wouldn't expect much form Google polish branch. That's mostly accountancy.
shinobicl_ just fyi: this is the part what needs lots of ram: ./perl6 --setting=NULL --target=pir --output=src/gen/CORE.setting.pir src/gen/CORE.setting 21:26
masak shinobicl_: yes :) 21:27
we know...
jnthn shinobicl_: Depends if you're on 32 or 64 bit.
shinobicl_: It almost doubles if you're on 64...
bbkr masak: This castle is called "Wawel". I did some impossible magic once and managed to get a pass to spent one night there. That was creepy, sleeping among ghosts of dead kings :)
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shinobicl_ oh thanks.. i'll reinstall my os then :) i don't need 64bit anyway 21:28
(it's a vps so is not a big deal to reinstall anything)
masak bbkr: I've spent a couple of nights at Hotel Pod Wawelem :P 21:29
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im2ee Uh, it's time for me. Will be tomorrow! See you. Good night. :) 21:30
bbkr good night 21:31
jnthn im2ee: dobranoc :)
masak im2ee: dobranoc
phenny: tell sorear two questions. first: what options do I have for setting @*LIB before 'use'? BEGIN { push } didn't work for me, and there's no support for PERL6LIB. 21:32
phenny masak: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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jnthn masak: @*INC 21:32
?
masak oh, meant that :/ 21:33
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masak phenny: tell sorear erm, @*INC, I meant. 21:33
phenny masak: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
masak that's also what I tried.
phenny: tell sorear -- second, why do I get an error message when I don't declare A::B in A/B.pm ? 21:34
phenny masak: I'll pass that on when sorear is around.
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masak perl6: die 21:46
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«*** Died␤ at /tmp/mjbdY7gs1l line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
..rakudo 90a619: OUTPUT«␤ in <anon> at /tmp/V6x8TXzJ2t:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/V6x8TXzJ2t:1␤␤»
..niecza v9-23-g1a8efca: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: No value for parameter $msg in CORE die␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (CORE die @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/fnA6A2z9VV line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2046 (CORE C956_ANON @ 2) ␤ at /ho…
masak I'm not sure the meta-error Niecza emits is motivated.
it should be allowed to die without a $msg. 21:47
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sorear jnthn: well, we also need a big runtime library... :( 21:56
phenny sorear: 21:32Z <masak> tell sorear two questions. first: what options do I have for setting @*LIB before 'use'? BEGIN { push } didn't work for me, and there's no support for PERL6LIB.
sorear: 21:33Z <masak> tell sorear erm, @*INC, I meant.
sorear: 21:34Z <masak> tell sorear -- second, why do I get an error message when I don't declare A::B in A/B.pm ?
sorear pmurias: from what TimToady has told me, ropey asymtotic performance is almost but not quite mandatory for Perl 6.0 Strs
jnthn sorear: Sure, I wasn't being especially serious :) 21:57
sorear pmurias: To be fair most of the Niecza opcodes are really "runtime support functions". I found it simpler to have a single concept of "opcode" than to split out the concept of "function"
masak: pong 21:58
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sorear masak: the only sane way is -I 21:58
masak ok. 21:59
then I'll use that.
would love to have PERL6LIB.
sorear snarkyboojum: your gist was sadly uninformative
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sorear snarkyboojum: did you have to do something to get that dump or was it automatic? 22:00
snarkyboojum: I'd be interested in seeing details of the core dump you got. 22:01
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sorear snarkyboojum: As would #mono. Mono apps aren't really supposed to dump core ever :) 22:01
snarkyboojum sorear: all I had to do to get the dump was run 'make
:)
sorear: cool :) will see if I can get the dump to you somehow 22:02
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sorear snarkyboojum: I don't have an osx system to use to interpret the dump 22:06
snarkyboojum sorear: will at least share the system diagnostics that os x throws up on the screen - see if that's helpful or not :)
sorear: but perhaps more a "mono on OS X" thing 22:07
sorear snarkyboojum: I've heard niecza worked on osx in the past.
snarkyboojum sorear: yeah.. used to use it 22:08
upgraded to Lion since then
sorear: gist.github.com/1210188 # for fun and giggles
sorear what are the major difference between Lion and Lion.prev?
snarkyboojum sorear: nfi
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sorear snarkyboojum: that error dump is at least very clear 22:10
masak sorear: in Niecza, how do I define a class with a custom postcircumfix:<[ ]> ?
sorear the C-stack overflowed
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sorear masak: defining a custom postcircumfix:<[ ]> method works. 22:11
masak: you can also use at-key exactly like Rakudo
snarkyboojum: it looks like something stupid involving exception handling triggering additional exceptions 22:12
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masak sorear: cool, thanks. 22:14
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sorear snarkyboojum: you might try 1. running the offending command with 'mono --trace=none ..' 2. running the offending command with 'NIECZA_TRACE=all mono ...' 22:15
(don't do both on the same run; the tracers wind up trying to trace each other and performance tanks'
)
snarkyboojum with mono --trace=none I get screenfuls of exception errors until I ctrl-c 22:16
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sorear snarkyboojum: I'm only interested in the last few before the segfault 22:17
ExitRunloopExceptions and ContinueUnwindExceptions (generally) aren't interesting, they're used internally by the niecza coroutine engine 22:18
snarkyboojum sorear: I'm modifying Makefile to do RUN_CLR=mono --trace=none - is that appropriate? :) 22:19
sorear snarkyboojum: I wouldn't
there's only one failing command
copy and paste
if you put it in the Makefile you're liable to forget to remove it, and I don't see what benefit it brings 22:20
masak 'night, #perl6
snarkyboojum sorear: oh - I assumed I needed to pass that switch to the mono invocation. Where do I pass --trace=none then?
sorear snarkyboojum: type "mono --trace=none boot/run/Niecza.exe -C CORE 22:21
"
snarkyboojum sorear: oops - ok
sorear snarkyboojum: > tempfile.txt
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pmurias sorear: yes, implementing most of the ops won't be hard, but there is still a bunch of them ;) 22:22
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pmurias sorear: are strings builtin into mono? 22:23
sorear yes, for moderate values of "builtin"
semantically, they're just another class in the standard library 22:24
pmurias what i'm curious if they are treated extra fast? 22:26
snarkyboojum sorear: FWIW - it's just a stream of "[0xac93a2c0:] EXCEPTION handling: System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object" errors - not very meaningful to me 22:27
sorear snarkyboojum: nothing between the lines? that's what I thought
snarkyboojum sorear: nothing else - just that spewed out until mono dumps 22:28
sorear snarkyboojum: would you nopaste the last ~50 lines of the --trace=all output?
snarkyboojum sorear: sure - gist.github.com/1210215 22:29
sorear snarkyboojum: that looks like --trace=none output 22:30
snarkyboojum eek - that was with trace=none :D
sorear: try again :) 22:31
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snarkyboojum sorear: I reckon it's something wonky with my mono install post upgrade - probably best that I not waste your time with this.. 22:36
sorear: like go-mono.com/forums/#nabble-td3562696 :| 22:37
sorear: thanks for your help - I'm just going to try a later version of mono - definitely not a Niecza problem I'd say 22:39
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sorear snarkyboojum: ...yes, your mono install is _wonky- 22:44
jnthn sleep &
sorear I mean seriously, you have null pointers in your NullPointerException class structure
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snarkyboojum sorear: aye - craziness :D 22:48
pretty impressive breakage between OS releases
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snarkyboojum so in summary - don't try and run Mono 2.8.2 on OS X Lion - it appears horribly broken. 23:00
2.10.5 works nicely however, and I now have a working Niecza again :)
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snarkyboojum and next time I'll do my homework a little more thoroughly :| 23:05
sorear snarkyboojum: wanna close the bug? 23:07
snarkyboojum sorear: sure - and thanks again :) 23:08
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mberends here is some Perl 6 GUI progress, a semi working Gtk Calc program for Niecza, patches welcome gist.github.com/1210303 23:47
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