»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
dalek d: be1f10e | larry++ | STD.pm6:
parse <[...]> as unbalanced text, not balanced
 00:01
japhb_ Why is Rakudo so much faster starting a REPL session than executing an empty file or empty -e ? 00:12
On my system, time (echo | ./perl6) => 0.152s while time (echo | ./perl6 -e '') => 0.930s and time (echo | ./perl6 ./test-empty) => 0.939s 00:13
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flussence try running those more than once each 00:36
00:36 pat____________ joined
pat____________ perl6: my $foo = {*+*} but "+" 00:42
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $foo is declared but not used at /tmp/yRms4raP4u line 1:␤------> my ⏏$foo = {*+*} but "+"␤␤␤Unhandled Exception: RoleApply with superclasses NYI␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (CORE infix:<but>… 00:43
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** Cannot cast from VStr "+" to VCode (VCode)␤ at Prelude.pm line 541, column 5-16␤»
..rakudo 158bd0: ( no output )
sorear hello pat
sbp std: my $foo = {*+*} but "+"
p6eval std 580b69a: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 122m␤»
pat____________ perl6: my $foo = {*+*} but "+"; say "{~$foo"} || {$foo(3,4)}"
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Two terms in a row at /tmp/DOO2l1pQwx line 1:␤------> my $foo = {*+*} but "+"; say "{~$foo⏏"} || {$foo(3,4)}"␤␤Parse failed␤␤» 00:44
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "\"}"␤ expecting "::", term postfix, operator or "}"␤ at /tmp/U2MpORBoAT line 1, column 37␤»
..rakudo 158bd0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 1␤»
sbp /tmp/U2MpORBoAT sounds like a request for Bono to be admitted to Parliament or banished
japhb_ flussence, I did. Those times were the minimum of 3 for each (and the first in each case was only a few percent worse). 00:45
flussence hm, my bad 00:46
japhb_ flussence, no worries, it's an obvious braino check. ;-)
pat____________ sorry had a date 00:47
benabik: (from 4 hours ago) yes, but the symbol should be any not used 00:49
dalek ecza/serialize: 9c51257 | sorear++ | lib/ (2 files):
Fix indirect-name package autovivification
sorear down to four failing files 00:54
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dalek ecza/serialize: 9f04acf | sorear++ | src/ (4 files):
mergeback
 02:33
ecza/serialize: 52fdc3b | sorear++ | / (2 files):
Reimplement compilation of subsets
sorear perl6: my $foo = Nil; say $foo.perl 02:35
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«Any␤»
..rakudo 158bd0: OUTPUT«Nil␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such subroutine: "&Nil"␤ at /tmp/6hsK5Wm3G0 line 1, column 6-14␤»
sorear Does my $x mean my Any $x? 02:37
niecza/master seems to think so
niecza/serialize thinks my $x means my Mu $x = Any 02:38
which I thought was correct?
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sorear niecza: "foo" ~~ /<sym>/ 03:05
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 613 (CORE warn @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 21 (CORE Mu.Str @ 12) ␤ at line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/Rx…
sorear boom
03:06 colomon joined
sorear o/ colomon 03:06
colomon \o
sorear down to 3 failing test files 03:07
colomon in serialization? 03:09
\
sorear yes
colomon \o/
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sorear colomon: did you see it's fast now too? :D 03:14
colomon no, what?
sorear the factor-of-3 compile speed regression has been fixed 03:15
TimToady sorear++
colomon in your branch, right?
sorear yes
colomon sorear++
(because compile time is quite fast on the master branch)
dalek ecza/serialize: 67f9b80 | sorear++ | src/ (3 files):
Fix /(x|y)/ case; tracking :dba immediately while parsing
 03:16
sorear 2 more
TimToady: what's the current ruling on my $x versus my Any $x versus my Mu $x = Any ?
TimToady as we last left it, the default value for a container was allowed to be different from its most general type 03:17
this particularly makes sense for 0-def arrays
but nobody implements defaults yet
but defaults are required for KeyHash semantics in any case 03:18
colomon afk # bed after a long day of chasing a 3-year-old among fantastic steam engines
TimToady that it, autodelete semantics when the value goes to the default
sorear TimToady: niecza/serialize thinks my $x; $x = Nil; results in $x === 03:20
Mu
TimToady in terms of where we're headed, normal containers will achieve default values much like S02:2274 talks about parameters 03:28
they just have to be hung on the declaration somehow
dalek ecza/serialize: 853ca5d | sorear++ | lib/Kernel.cs:
Fix class A::B {}; class A {}
 03:30
sorear TimToady: I'm trying to avoid adding an extra word fo containers 03:31
for now I'll just switch it back to my Any $x semantics 03:32
I didn't intend to change it in any case
TimToady defaulting containers can mix in 03:33
sorear well there's the question of "my $x" versus "my Mu $x" 03:35
..weird, it looks like niecza/master actually implemetns an inconsistant mixture of both definitions .:) 03:36
sorear begins to wonder what the use case for this is 03:42
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sorear TimToady: what is the anticipated use case for $x = Nil ? 04:02
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dalek ecza/serialize: 9ceaa8e | sorear++ | / (7 files):
Regularize Any/Mu variable handling

It turned out that 'type' was not a necessary part of the public API. Removing it simplified other things. Also fixes coretest; changes Nil to reset variables to Any default.		 04:32
sorear all spectest regressions should now be fixed. running another run to confirm this...
dalek ecza/serialize: 2a9f24b | sorear++ | / (2 files):
Merge branch 'master' of github.com:sorear/niecza into serialize
 04:34
moritz good morning 04:46
sorear good morning moritz 05:04
looks like I did cause a fail with my fixes for the other fails 05:05
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sorear uhm 05:07
S05-grammar/methods.t and RT73680 look bogus
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moritz sorear: what looks bogus about it? 05:29
a grammar is just a class that also inherits from Grammar 05:32
does niecza's Grammar override Mu's .new? 05:33
sorear yeah, I figured that there's no real reason *not* to allow it, even if it won't be very useful 05:39
dalek ecza/serialize: f5dc966 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
Rename Cursor.new to avoid conflicting with code that pretends grammars are classes
sorear hopefully now there are no spectest failures
can anyone think of a reason not to merge the branch now? 05:40
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moritz moon phase? 06:12
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tadzik good morning 06:28
sorear morning tadzik 06:29
sorear sleep 06:30
masak good night sorear, good morning tadzik 06:32
random question: which concept do you consider more difficult to grok: OO, or testing? 06:33
tadzik en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grok#Verb 06:34
which variant should I use?
To have an intuitive understanding of, or to fully and completely understand?
masak meant the latter, but the former sounds fine too. 06:35
of course, it really means "to drink" :P 06:36
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tadzik I don't think I completely understand either :) 06:36
when we're at intuitively understanding, I think I'm more towards testing
masak I'm discussing testing with @quietfanatic on Twitter. a fascinating exchange. 06:37
I'm realizing (again) that my view on testing has changed a lot in the past year, much thanks to CQRS. 06:38
for example, @quietfanatic said "my app is a game, so my external API is keystrokes and pixels". a year or so ago, I might have thought "oh, right". now I'm thinking "that just isn't so -- the GUI isn't the API". 06:40
anyway, the reason for my original question is that I heard a prospective client say yesterday "I spent five years getting used to the idea of OO -- I hope tests don't take as long to learn. :)" and I realize Pugs (and my first experience with immersive testing) happened six years ago. 06:44
moritz: [backlogging #phasers more carefully] the Set operators do have ASCII equivalents. TimToady has said that these are the only ones that get imported by default, and for the Unicode ones you have to 'use Set;' 06:46
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Woodi masak: probably both concepts have few layers... first one for testing is very simple: testing... ok, wil ldo tests :) but first layer of OO is broader i think... and next layers include more teory and more practics so answers can be different. IMO: 'testsing' is simpler, but on your question i will be answer 'testing' becouse there is more unknown behind that... 06:48
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masak I guess both concepts are pretty simple if one counts all the un-learning that needs to be done as negative complexity ;) 06:52
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moritz masak: I found testing much easier to learn, but then I already had much more programming experience 06:55
masak: I know for sure that testing is easier to explain to my wife
"we put some data in, and see if the program behaves the right way. We can automate that." 06:56
masak OO could be made quite easy to explain too, I think. 07:00
"a program consists in part of what we want to do, and how we do things. if we separate these, it's easier to change (and protect) the how without affecting the what." 07:01
ok, that's quite abstract, I guess. :) 07:02
diakopter: what I find the most alarming about search.cpan.org/~lichtkind/Perl6-Do...AQ/FUD.pod isn't that answers have bitrotted or gotten harder to answer, but that *several of the questions are unanswered*, and that module was last updated in 2008. any casual observer can see that, and draw his own conclusions. 07:04
in fact, must draw his own conclusions.
"here, let's make a document where we assuage the concerns of people with doubts -- *alarming question* -- lack of answer" 07:05
moritz masak: you've described modularization, not OO 07:08
at least the way I've learned it, OO needs polymorphism, which doesn't appear in that explanation 07:16
masak also true. 07:23
I'll try to do better. :)
"we let data and code travel together, in logical bundles called 'objects'. we know early on about an object's capabilities, but which code is actually run depends on the state and type of the object." 07:25
that doesn't cover encapsulation, but encapsulation is not an absolute necessity for OO -- as Perl 5 shows. 07:30
moritz still finds the explanatioin for testing much simpler 07:34
masak aye. 07:35
moritz and the mere fact that the first OO explanation didn't cover some essential OO component is also telling :-) 07:36
masak well, it didn't *explicitly* cover it. one could argue that polymorphism is a kind of "changing the how". 07:37
nom: class A { method foo { say "OH HAI" } }; A.new.foo 07:44
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
masak nom: class A { method foo($self:D :) { say "OH HAI" } }; A.new.foo
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Capture'␤»
masak hm.
nom: class A { method foo($self:D:) { say "OH HAI" } }; A.new.foo
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Capture'␤»
masak D: 07:45
I'm assuming this isn't expected behaviour.
is it a bug, or a NYI thing?
nqp: class A { method foo($self:D:) { say("OH HAI") }; A.new.foo 07:47
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Routine declaration requires a signature at line 1, near "($self:D:)"␤current instr.: 'nqp;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 23698 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:6757) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:329)␤»
masak ok, that didn't make things clearer :)
moritz nom: class A { method foo($?CLASS:D:) { say 'oh hai' } }; A.new.foo; A.foo 07:50
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤In signature parameter, '$?CLASS', it is illegal to use '?' twigil at line 1, near ":D:) { say"␤»
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masak is there any substance to my intuition that the late binding of OO polymorphism is somehow "later" or looser than that of procedural programming? 08:02
moritz well, which procedural programming languages do runtime dispatch? 08:04
masak I guess because if you'd want to emulate run-time polymorphism in procedural code, you'd have to write it out explicitly with (the moral equivalent of) a switch statement. and that's a static thing, in code.
moritz: hm, interesting question. I guess the pattern matching in Haskell is a sort of runtime dispatch, for example.
Erlang has similar facilities.
basically anything with powerful enough multimethods has it. 08:05
moritz does either allow dispatch based on the actual type of something, and not just the declared type?
masak I don't know about types. I keep thinking of fib as the prototypical example, but it just dispatches on values. 08:06
come to think of it, all multi variants of something in Haskell needs to have the same type signature...
(I think.)
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moritz the second aspect is that method dispatch looks in different scopes then procedural dispatch 08:07
so somebody can load another class at runtime, and give me an object of that class, and when I call a method on it, it will dispatch to that newly loaded class 08:09
masak oh yes, scoping.
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masak that's what the dot twigil does to attributes and methods -- it switches the scope from being along the 'OUTER' axis to being along the 'nextsame' axis. ish. 08:11
moritz I don't see how that could work in a procedural lang, except by emulating method dispatch tables
masak right.
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masak interesting: perlmonks.org/?node_id=933680 09:03
I'm writing a(nother) talk about languages, parsers, and parsing right now. the kind of input this thread gives is very valuable. 09:04
especially seeing the incomprehension of the OP as he tries to understand the replies.
ooh, someone recommended a jnthn++ talk, and (naturally) it helped a lot! 09:06
tadzik :)
yeah, noticed that too
masak many other great recommendations in there too. following up on them now. 09:08
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masak oh wow, BrowserUk and ikegami can really push each other's testosterone buttons. 09:22
moritz yes, that happens with quite some regularity
which is rather sad, since both usually have very good replies otherwise 09:23
masak yeah.
moritz it kinda spoils their record :(
masak whatever made either, much less both, of them think that the status of "glob" as a word was worth a mud-slinging comment war? :/
it globbles the imagination. 09:24
moritz very globbing indeed
moritz thinks about scraping perlmonks for replies of a depth >= 2, and doing a statistic of how often either or both of them are involved 09:25
erm, depth >= 20
though on the more productive side, I've been pondering a blog post about the different forms of polymorphism 09:26
inheritance vs. roles/interfaces vs. duck typing vs. structural typing
masak ooh 09:28
mux vs. parametric polymorphism maybe? 09:38
moritz what is parametric polymorphism? :-)
mux what procedural people call generics ;-)
jnthn What parametric roles do. 09:39
mux jnthn: not really no
moritz mux: the part that I wanted to describe (not too deeply) doesn't really need generics
I wondered about haskell's typeclasses though
mux but... that's my favourite form of polymorphism :-P
haskell's type-classes are ad-hoc polymorphism 09:40
which is implemented using subtyping in OO languages, at least most of the time
moritz but decided that they are, in some sense, isomorophic to java's interfaces (people will kill me for that statement, I know)
mux which is not to say those are equivalent
moritz mux: ok, I'll make sure to give you a draft of that post to read before publishing it :-) 09:41
mux moritz: cool!
masak mux: what you say sounds intriguing. maybe you should write a blog post, too! :)
mux masak: what's intriguing about what I say? 09:42
masak you seem to have a good grasp of how the different types of polymorphism are represented in various programming paradigms. 09:43
mux I just read TAPL ;-)
masak and also how they (the types of polymorphism) differ from each other.
tadzik TAPL?
masak oh, I should totally do that! I started reading it in 2005.
mux types and programming languages by B. Pierce
masak tadzik: au++ read it, found exercise at the end saying "implement something", and then went and wrote Pugs. 09:44
tadzik :)
mux it has all you ever wanted to know about lambda calculus (untyped, simply typed, System F...), type system formalisation, subtyping (nominal and structural and possibly bounded), and so on
quite possibly the greatest CS book I ever read 09:45
tadzik wishlist'd
mux the follow-up (advanced types and programming languages) is very cool too, though it hurt my brain multiple times and there are still stuff in there that I don't get 09:46
tadzik search.cpan.org/dist/HOP-Lexer/lib/...rticle.pod is an awesome readt 09:47
moritz tadzik: when I read that in the book, I kept thinking "there must be a simpler and more efficient way to do that" all the time 09:48
tadzik grumbles something about pdf being free and Kindle edition costing more than a paperback 09:49
moritz like, having a single closure that knows about all the lexing regexes, and applies them all in parallel upon request, returning one token 09:50
tadzik moritz: I'd like to learn, one day, about writing parsers step-by-step, tokenizing, lexing, building ast. It's quite easy with grammars, sure, but the result is that I can't write a parser in something else than Perl :)
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moritz tadzik: tokenizing == lexing afaict :-) 09:51
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tadzik well, that's quite my understanding after reading that article :) 09:51
moritz tadzik: I've written a recursive descending parser for a turing-complete toy language with not-too-awful syntax 09:52
tadzik was it fun?
moritz tadzik: it taught me two things: 1) it's not too hard to do and 2) it's so much repetition that I almost went off to write a wrapper that generates a parser from a data spec 09:53
tadzik :Y
(:
moritz but yes, it was fun
tadzik: a part of that code lives on in github.com/moritz/math-expression-.../Parser.pm 09:54
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tadzik moritz: typo in #170 :) 09:55
moritz tadzik: thanks 09:57
mux wonders if he should voice his opinion on regexps in here :-P 09:58
moritz mux: please do, it'll be entertaining :-) 09:59
mux heh
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moritz tadzik: typo fixed 10:00
mux I think they're a great tool for sysadmins, in the command line; but I also think they're not fit for development and I find that they are "only" a very obfuscated domain-specific language taht wuold be better expressed using parsing combinators
moritz mux: do you find Perl 6 grammars comparable obfuscated and inferior to parsing combinators?
mux moritz: I don't know perl6 grammars :-( 10:01
I really should get up to speed with perl6 10:02
moritz mux: see for example github.com/moritz/json/blob/master...Grammar.pm for an example
that's a complete grammar for JSON
mux I'm surprised you cannot just write BNF grammars directly in Perl6 :D 10:03
moritz in short, grammars are classes. They can contain "special" methods that are basically regexes, and which can call other (regex-)methods by name
mux: it's very much BNF, just with different syntax :-)
mux moritz: anyways, I find tht more readable that ad-hoc code that would deal with tokenization/etc itself 10:04
than*
work calls, bbl &
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masak aye. Perl 6 grammars are essentially BNF, but for Perl 6. 10:39
the "for Perl 6" part is quite important. they really fit in well.
tadzik: there's a *lot* of theory behind parsing, all the way up to finite automata theory and beyond. I don't understand much of it yet, but I find that the general principles are quite sane and easy to grasp. writing a decent parser probably isn't that difficult. 10:42
doing it well with LTM and stuff seems a little tricky, but also achievable. 10:43
snarkyboojum Perl 6 grammars are essentially parsing expression grammars in Perl 6 :)
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masak one question I haven't really tried to answer yet is "Why does everyone else think it's a good idea to separate out lexing and building an AST, but Perl 6 mixes them together?" 10:47
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geekosaur what everyone else? most haskell parsers combine them 10:54
I think it's generally done because you get an explosion of states if you do it the usual low level way, so it makes sense to lex first into tokens (using a simpler state machine) and then parse those (which again simplifies the state machine) 10:55
...it helps that computers are faster now so it doesn't cost so much to use a higher level approach 10:56
cognominal_ masak, when you conceptually separate lexing and parsing you end up with language like javascript. You can't use keywords as for other usages like variable names.
geekosaur (yacc-like parsers go back to the pdp11)
masak cognominal_: good point. 10:57
oh, I guess lex and yacc pretty much set the standard for a few decades.
geekosaur yes
cognominal_ perl solves partially that specific conflict with the use of sigils but the discussion yesterday shows you need some context to recognize a key of a fat arrow and not a keyword. 10:58
masak nice to hear that Haskell parsers combine them, too.
geekosaur go count how many parsers on cpan are basically translations of yacc :)
masak cognominal_: yes.
cognominal_ masak, I think this is a case of choice made by tools (yacc, lex) shaping people thought. 10:59
masak geekosaur: without having studied lex/yacc too much, I think the way Perl 6/Haskell does it is significantly saner, and I don't currently feel very tempted to study the old way :)
cognominal_: I think so too. just as make had/has a hegemony, so did/does lex/yacc. 11:00
geekosaur as I said, the main davantage of the lex/yacc way was saving memory
much easier to force stuff to fit into a 64K (!) address space
cognominal_ The infamous Whorf hypothesis could be applied besides languages.
geekosaur modern parsers use considerably more state storage than that, conveniently we have more than that :) 11:01
cognominal_ geekosaur. This is probably true that many tool we are using todays were shaped by constraint irrelevant today.
geekosaur (also, yacc was itself something of a revolution *at the time*)
in large part because it went to a lot of effort to optimize the state table (again, in the interests of saving memory) 11:02
masak tools surviving the usefulness of their optimizations. interesting. 11:03
geekosaur perl has a certain history of busting that particular wall down :)
masak :) 11:04
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cognominal_ Speaking of automata, I wish someone had explained to me that a NFA was just a DFA on the powerset. When I read that, it made obvious things I had trouble to grasp. 11:05
mux cognominal_: you might enjoy the type signature of the 'determinize' function there: code.mumux.org/automata/src/120d63e...ton/NFA.hs 11:06
haskell is pretty like that ;-)
-- Convert the NFA into a DFA using the powerset-construction algorithm.
determinize :: (Ord a, Ord s) => NFA s a -> DFA (Set s) a
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masak cognominal_: that is indeed a nice explanation. it also explains why NFAs are sometimes expensive to build. 11:07
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mux the Ord constraints are implementation details 11:07
cognominal_ I need to work haskell. I can read it but I have trouble writing it when composing monads.
mux++ # thx for the link 11:08
mux you can do tons of stuff in haskell without monads though
cognominal_: yw; tht code is a bit messy though, I have to warn you
masak determinize :: (Ord a, Ord s) => NFA s a -> DFA (Set s) a
♥
mux heh :D 11:09
you gotta love when a type signature precisely matches the mathematical formalisation of something
masak mux: do you really need to nest 'where' clauses like that? can't just just carry on on the same indentation level with just one 'where'? 11:10
mux masak: I could, but when the were clause really only pertains to a sub-clause, I like it better to have a sub-sub-clause; this way when you move code around, it has more chances of working
masak I thought that might be the reason. 11:11
fair enough.
mux but I agree this is not very pretty
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tadzik .u u umlaut 11:13
phenny tadzik: Sorry, no results for 'u umlaut'.
tadzik pff
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tadzik oh, I need ö anyway :) 11:14
could've taken Camelia's head
masak noooooooo
gfldex nom: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; say @a Z @b Z "\n" xx * 11:17
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«1 a ␤ 2 b ␤ 3 c ␤␤»
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gfldex any way to get rid of the extra space before the NL? 11:18
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masak there's extra spaces everywhere because you're .gist-ing a List. 11:19
nom: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; say (@a Z @b Z "\n" xx *).join
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«1a␤2b␤3c␤␤»
gfldex now there are to few spaces :) 11:20
masak nom: say "1 a\n2 b\n3 c\n\n" # there you go 11:21
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«1 a␤2 b␤3 c␤␤␤»
gfldex tyvm :D
masak problems. I solve them. 11:22
nom: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; for @a Z @b -> $a, $b { say "$a $b" } # this also works
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«1 a␤2 b␤3 c␤»
gfldex that does work 11:23
is there a forEach method in List?
masak nom: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; .say for map { "$^a $^b" }, (@a Z @b) # this works, too
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«1 a␤2 b␤3 c␤»
masak gfldex: there's "for", and "map". we've theorized about an "each" pseudo-junction. 11:24
gfldex my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; (@a Z @b).each(&say) # looks neat to me 11:25
masak actually, it would be say each map { "$^a $^b" }, (@a Z @b), I think. 11:26
actually, I think it's perfectly possible to *build* the Each type with what nom has already, without necessarily sticking it inside the Rakudo repo.
someone should do that. ;)
gfldex my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; @a Z @b each .say # may work as an operator too 11:28
masak even assuming it did, it'd probably be tigher than Z, so you'd still need the parens. 11:34
but I'd prefer it to be a listop just like any, all, one, and none.
gfldex Confused at line 8, near "@a Z @b ea" 11:35
nom is so easy to confuse these days :)
masak I take it back about 'each' being implementable outside of Rakudo. I don't see it anymore.
gfldex can i define the precedence of custom operators? 11:36
or better is tha speced?
tadzik b: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class List { method each(&call) { self.map: { &call(|$_) } } }; (1, 2, 3, 4).each(&say) 11:37
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«Method 'each' not found for invocant of class 'Parcel'␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/Nnp0sw9Ku5␤»
tadzik pff
b: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class List { method each(&call) { self.map: { &call(|$_) } } }; (1, 2, 3, 4).list.each(&say)
p6eval b 1b7dd1: ( no output )
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masak gfldex: yes, and yes. 11:38
gfldex: I believe it only works in Niecza so far.
gfldex i cant wait for Xmas! 11:39
masak tadzik: right, but the thing with 'each' (as far as I understand it) is that it isn't a method on List taking a closure, but rather (just like junctions) a sub on a list returning an kind of object that when passed as a parameter dispatches to possibly many repetitions of the same call but with different values. 11:40
tadzik: the main difference with each is that it guarantees sequencing.
tadzik mhm 11:41
11:41 Patterner left, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner
moritz and that it returns something from which you can extract the eigenstates 11:42
gfldex nom: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; (@a Z @b)>>.say; 11:44
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«c␤a␤3␤1␤2␤b␤»
gfldex wut? 11:45
shouldn't >>. be in order?
jnthn no
moritz gfldex: it just returns itse results in order
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gfldex we need each then :) 11:45
jnthn The compiler is allowed to parallelize it.
In which case order of side-effects really can't be relied on 11:46
masak pmichaud++ # for randomizing the results of >> 11:48
jnthn yeah but >> has the wrong semantics now because the spec went and changed after pmichaud implemented it. 11:49
masak not for method calls, I think.
moritz (but it's not the random part that's wrong)
masak: yes, for method calls too
jnthn I thought it was the method call part that was wrongest?
masak oh, where's the dividing line, then?
jnthn needs to read those changes more closely 11:50
masak re-reads that spec patch
jnthn Well, I'll preserve the randomizing order provided I don't have to go out of my way to do it.
That is, if nobody else takes this on. In which case it's up to them. :)
11:51 pernatiy joined
jnthn (If anybody wants to work on it, that would be much appreciated, btw.) 11:51
11:51 benabik joined
moritz I might, but I have no idea how to do a dispatch that excludes Cool/Any/Mu 11:51
jnthn we...huh...what 11:52
moritz exactly.
lemme dig out the relevant lines...
jnthn pushes it down his task list some way, as that sounds like something he REALLY can't be bothered with. 11:53
masak comes back up out of the spec
I must say I'm not really sold on fallback semantics.
jnthn Two more words I don't like hearing. :/
masak also, I've come to accept Cool and why we have it, but I don't like it becoming special-cased in other features. doesn't feel like a design that scales. 11:54
moritz (For this meaning of "responds to",
we ignore any multi candidates defined in Cool, or the negation
above would not work, since Array responds to negation via Cool.
jnthn Like, in .^methods et al
moritz from S03 11:55
jnthn We ignore...multi candidates defined in...pfft, so it's not just about method dispatch being affected, it wants the multi-dispatcher to get involved too?
masak :(
jnthn OK, I need to look at it much more closely.
moritz nom: class A { method defined() }; say A.^can('defined')[0] === Any.^can('defined')[0] 11:56
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing block at line 1, near "}; say A.^"␤»
masak takes a skeptical stance to the "duck mapping" idea
moritz nom: class A { method defined() {} }; say A.^can('defined')[0] === Any.^can('defined')[0]
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«Bool::False␤»
moritz nom: class A { method defined() {} }; say Cool.^can('defined')[0] === Any.^can('defined')[0]
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
moritz has a nasty idea 11:57
masak moritz: ah, a test for "is this method from Cool/Any/Mu?"
moritz masak: correct
masak cackles evilly
jnthn Yes but...that won't tell you anything about the multi candidates
masak true. 11:58
moritz nom: class A { method defined() { 42 } }; say A.^can('defined')[0].(A.new)
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«42␤»
moritz well, the spec doesn't say it's a normal dispatch, but a weird dispatch
moritz finds excuses
jnthn weird = slow, of course :)
11:58 eiro joined
eiro hello 11:58
jnthn well, slower
masak heiro! 11:59
moritz: one slightly disturbing thing is that extensions to Mu/Any/Cool in later Perl 6 spec versions might break previously working uses of >> 12:07
moritz masak: example?
masak: since they are excluded from dispatch, that shouldn't happen 12:08
masak: but I agree it's a general problem with this approach, it relies on the absence of methods in certain classes
masak right. 12:10
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jnthn I see Parrot folks are planning to merge the green threads branch. Did the sizable slowdown to mandelbrot get resolved? 12:28
tadzik they claim so
jnthn ok
moritz the last report was that the slowdown decreased to 0.8%
I'll test that :-)
jnthn OK, that's more acceptable.
Please do
benabik Hasn't merged yet. Testing welcome. :-D
jnthn 0.8% should be a fraction of a second's difference. 12:29
moritz nom: say 35 * 8e-3 12:30
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«0.28␤»
tadzik worth it, I suppose 12:31
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[Coke] aye. much like the nom rewrite is worth it even though we have regressions. ;) 12:32
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jnthn Well, with the small difference that the nom re-write made some things significantly faster, rather than a little slower ;) 12:33
[Coke] I was referring more to the "made some things possible that would have been reallly hard otherwise" portion.
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[Coke] existing parrot threads have been nigh-useless since... 12:34
tadzik they're like the Matrix sequels
you just assume they don't exist 12:35
[Coke] bah. they were perfectly fine action movies. :P
I remember whiteknight trying to get me to rip them out in a release, was probably 2.6 12:36
masak thought-provoking quotes: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-orient...#Criticism
[Coke] (but it was a gsoc thing, and the request to merge came in just before the release was due, so I said no. 12:37
moritz masak: the one from Paul Graham immediately made the word "Java" pop into my mind :-) 12:38
tadzik hehe, how so? :>
masak moritz: I'm pretty sure that wasn't a design goal of Java... but it might be argued that that was the result, yes.
tadzik my head reacted quite similarly
masak moritz: in essence, there are lots of companies out there who want both Java and some sort of programmer herding/replaceability at the same time. 12:39
colomon I think OOP is a great tool. But people who try to make it THE paradigm of their programming language are insane.
masak moritz: though in Sweden, that role seems to be increasingly filled by C#/.NET -- admittedly a slightly nicer solution.
jnthn I think it's a bit better than "slightly" 12:40
You can do higher order programming reasonably nicely in C# these days 12:41
Admittedly, that probably means the average C# developer gets a headache over a bunch of the stuff I write... :)
moritz wonders if jnthn belongs to the High Order of Programming 12:42
jnthn No, just the ones who studied a functional language at uni, rather than just Java :)
masak hey! :)
jnthn hehe :P
masak though I must admit that I snuck into the functional language lectures at uni, even though I technically shouldn't be there... 12:43
jnthn masak: You're not average or typical. :)
masak I'll interpret that as a compliment. 12:44
;)
jnthn :) 12:46
masak those were ML lectures, IIRC. a bit too basic, but still nicer than the Java lectures we got in the Engineering track. 12:49
jnthn yeah, ML was what I got 12:53
masak ooh, ML is written by Milner or Hindley-Milner fame. 12:54
jnthn The usual lecturer for the course was the author of "ML for the working programmer", but he was on leave the year I did the course. His stand-in poked a little fun at the book title, but actually did the course pretty well. :)
masak "the working programmer is currently on leave" *ba dum dish*
mls_ Hah! Success! nqp passes with most blocks as :blocktype("inline") ! 12:57
(I know why I don't build compilers as my main job, debugging is really time consuming) 12:58
moritz \o/
mls_ Now I've got to do some time measurements and a bit of code cleanup
jnthn mls_: Is this related to stacked lexpads?
mls_ It *is* stacked lexpads 12:59
jnthn :)
mls_ lots of push_pad and pop_pad in the generated code
It works really well with the driectaccess patch I did end of last day
week 13:00
Thus it doesn't generate find_lex/store_lex for the lexicals it can access directly
benabik mls_: Thank you for doing a lot of the PCT work I had on my list. Both of those were high on the "should be done" list.
masak mls_: ooc, which lexicals can it access directly? 13:01
mls_ wait until I know if it really makes things faster ;)
all of the ones from the current sub
13:01 daxim left
moritz just be careful about lexicals that can be modified from an eval() 13:01
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moritz nom: my $x = 3; say $x; eval '$x = 6'; say $x 13:02
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«3␤6␤»
mls_ (except $_, $/, ... because you treat them special in the lexpad)
moritz that needs to re-fetch the $x
mls_ that's a different sub
masak well, a different block, at least.
mls_ but it uses the same register
masak what does 'eval "return"' do?
moritz yes, but the re-fetching needs to happen in the mainline, because a sub we called modified the lexicals
mls_ the eval changes the correct register 13:03
moritz nom: eval 'return'
p6eval nom 158bd0: ( no output )
moritz mls_: that's cool
benabik moritz: Nope. Parrot uses the register you declared in .lex as the storage location for the lexical. So if you say $P25 is $x, then $P25 is always always the value of $x
moritz nom: eval 'return'; say 3
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«3␤»
mls_ that's how fetch_lex/store_lex work, they mess with the registers of another context
masak perl6: sub foo { eval 'return'; say "OH HAI" }; foo
benabik moritz: (In that routine, of course.)
p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 158bd0, niecza v10-66-g71325b0: ( no output )
masak \o/
so, not a different sub.
jnthn eval implies a block not a sub.
buubot_backup jnthn: ERROR: Illegal declaration of anonymous subroutine at (eval 20) line 1.
mls_ parrot sub 13:04
masak slaps buubot_backup
benabik buubot_backup: shush
buubot_backup benabik: Couldn't match input.
jnthn buubot_backup: THOU SHALT NOT SPEAK UNLESS SPOKEN TO, BOT
buubot_backup jnthn: Couldn't match input.
masak buubot_backup: Could you match inpu?
buubot_backup masak: Couldn't match input.
masak buubot_backup: what couldn't you match?
buubot_backup masak: Couldn't match input.
mls_ anyway, I'll do some benchmarks now...
masak buubot_backup: you could do everything, except...
buubot_backup masak: Couldn't match input.
mls_ (I hope things get faster, otherwise it a week's work was useles...) 13:05
jnthn mls_: It *should* help plenty (more)
benabik mls_: Avoiding calling subs and find/store_lex should just be doing less work.
masak jnthn: admittedly, it uses a fixed prefix 'eval ', which is still better than purl...
jnthn One of the things that the optimizer does is inline basic blocks.
That doesn't declare lexicals 13:06
It makes a notable difference
mls_ yes, I saw that
jnthn Since it saves multiple GC-ables
benabik That inlining can still avoid creating the lexpad.
jnthn (the CallContext and a Continuation)
mls_ I still have to allocate one PMC though, the lexpad
jnthn benabik: Yes, true. It's worth doing even with the mls++ patch.
They're complementary :)
mls_ blocktype inline doesn't create the lexpad if it's not needed 13:07
benabik mls_: !!!
mls_ (not needed == no lexicals declared)
jnthn Oh :)
Wow :)
mls_ (that was an easy optimization) 13:08
jnthn Smart. :)
mls_ I still have a bit of a problem with contextuals, they use find/store_dynamic_lex
Now, find/store_dynamic_lex ignores the current lexpad, I don't know what the correct semantics should be in this case 13:09
Hmm, that souned confusing, let's try again
currently find_dynamic_lex starts with with lexpad of the caller context 13:10
I don't know if I should change that to "skip the current lexpad"
as a sub now has a chain of lexpads
(For now I've just added two new ops: find/store_dynamic_lex_current to make contextuals work) 13:11
(cause with $/ et al we don't need to skip the current pad) 13:12
anyway, benchmarks first ;)
jnthn For contextual I think it's tied to scope depth 13:13
And you've just changed the unit of scope.
So yes, it'd be skip the current lexpad, not skip all lexpads (scopes) in the current context.
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mls_ afk for a while... 13:17
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benabik Is there a particular reason the failing tests in NQP haven't been marked TODO? 13:24
moritz benabik: there should only be regex tests failing, and there the answer is probably that we thought the regex engine was still in too much flux
(unless you are missing ICU; we haven't gone the lengths to skip ICU-dependent tests in NQP yet) 13:25
benabik moritz: Have ICU, only getting failures in qregex. I'm just tired of going "oh yes, it's those tests again." ;-)
moritz benabik: feel free to TODO them if they annoy you 13:26
PerlJam so once green threads are available in parrot ... who is planning to use them in rakudo/nqp ?
masak benabik: if it's possible to TODO them in such a way to show that they're *regressions*, that's good too.
masak is not too hot about the practice of regressing and then just slapping TODO on things 13:27
benabik masak: `:todo<regression>` ?
masak somethinglikethat
benabik masak: For me "todo" means "these tests are expected to fail right now". I also note that I'm getting a pile of passing TODOs as well. :-D 13:28
masak masak: I'm fine with that definition of TODO... it's just that I don't think that's sufficient reaction to a regression. 13:29
unless it's a completely private project with no downstream users, I guess.
13:30 im2ee joined
im2ee Hi! o/ 13:31
masak hi im2ee 13:32
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benabik Huh. qregex test failing hid from me the fact that the p6regex test hangs. Excellent. :-( 14:03
moritz oh, that might be my fault 14:04
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benabik Uh, it hangs after emitting the done testing line? 14:04
Hm.
benabik hopes this isn't due to green_threads. 14:05
moritz nope
I think I've seen that on top of master too
14:05 envi_ left
benabik I'm somewhat confused why it hangs at the end of the script. 14:06
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moritz benabik: it might have started to hang around commit 05affcfdbebee1f74faf63969ee6d1b393b248f3 14:07
not sure if that's any help to you 14:08
benabik moritz: I'll look into it after my test this afternoon.
dalek p: 1f3891e | moritz++ | t/p6regex/01-regex.t:
work around hang of p6regex tests at end of file
 14:12
moritz benabik: this is somewhat ugly...
benabik moritz: That's one way to "solve" it... 14:13
moritz benabik: I remember that rakudo had a similar hack, because the final teardown caused segfaults back in the days 14:14
jnthn Could be worth attaching the debugger to see where it's hanging. 14:15
Or run it under the debugger and break when it hangs
benabik jnthn: That was on my todo list, yes. 14:16
jnthn: But I should be studying for a test right now, and debugging takes much longer than mucking with TODOs. :-D
jnthn :)
mls_ might be a runloop problem, i.e. some finalize ops missing 14:17
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moritz nom: say so 'a' ~~ /<?alpha>/ 14:29
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«Bool::True␤»
dalek p: fa9f991 | moritz++ | src/QRegex/Cursor.nqp:
try to implement <before>

It seems a bit wrong since it never captures, but it does look-ahead		 14:36
jnthn afk...vaguely work related beer drinking opportunity arose &
moritz have fun jnthn
jnthn L(
*:)
probably back in a few hours
moritz phenny: ask pmichaud to please review github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/fa9f99...20f76fe6d9 when he has a spare minute. My first regex built-in, so I'm not sure at all if that's the right approach 14:37
phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
masak moritz: nice! 14:38
moritz I figured it can't be too hard, since look-ahead is a *very* simple operation 14:39
dalek nqp: 9ce492d | benabik++ | t/p6regex/01-regex.t.old:
nqp: Remove t/p6regex/01-regex.t.old
nqp:
nqp: It's not being used and if someone wants to refer to it, it's still
nqp: available in the git history.
14:39 dalek left
moritz you just do a normal regex match, and "forget" to bump the position 14:39
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masak apparently :) 14:39
and since 'tis all immutable Cursor objects, it's a bit like doing an experimental branch in git, I guess... 14:40
benabik Did dalek get lost mid-commit?
moritz benabik: kicked for flodding, I'd guess
masak aye.
benabik Oh.
moritz benabik: never mind, not your fault 14:41
masak in such a case, dalek always emits five lines and then gets kicked.
benabik Well the NQP test suite now completes for me, which is useful for noticing bad tests are actually bad. If anyone disagrees with the set of TODOed tests, that's a useful data point. :-D
14:41 SHODAN left
moritz masak: I'm not sure how immutable cursors actually are 14:41
masak: the qregex code is full of things like $cur.'!cursor_pass'($pos, $name) 14:42
where the return value is ignored
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moritz if the cursor was immutable, why would one do a method call and throw away the result? 14:43
masak I think it's "immutable for all you know". :P
which is a kind I like.
moritz "just don't look carefully"
IME it creates a new cursor for each branch in an alternation, for each backtracking etc. 14:44
so for all the things that look like they might need one
hm, wait, that's just a guess
masak but it sounds sane. 14:46
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masak technically, for an alternation you'd only need to create one new branch. 14:46
but it might be nicer from a model perspective to create both in nqp, I dunno. 14:47
moritz my mental model is "each point where a decision is made that could be revised later on, we create a list of cursors, one for each possible choice"
s/each/at each/ 14:48
taking a branch in an alternation is such a choice
masak nod.
moritz not sure how closely qregex follows that model
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masak the PGE model was "push to @ustack and do a local_branch for each possible future backtrack-oid choice": github.com/masak/gge/blob/master/l...xp.pm#L586 14:50
moritz masak: how was @ustack scoped? 14:51
masak globally. 14:52
[Coke] question: the setting is currently compiled as a single unit why? so they all have the same OUTER?
masak moritz: well, global for the match process.
[Coke]: because it's a single unit.
moritz [Coke]: we've been discussing a staged setting, but it'd need a good, clear cutting point 14:53
[Coke] masak: I understand it's a single unit, but why does that matter to parrot is the part I'm trying to tease out. 14:55
but, meetings. 14:57
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masak [Coke]: the mainline code conceptually has the setting as its OUTER. so it needs to be a single unit. 15:00
JimmyZ introduces Perl 6 to his new colleague, and his colleague likes it very much
moritz masak: I'm not convinced. The REPL has code to copy two nested scopes into a single scope. That might be reusable for having nested settings appear to be a single one 15:01
masak I thought what the REPL did was descend into new inner scopes all the time... 15:05
moritz it'd leak memory like hell if it did
masak I'd always wondered about that ;) 15:06
moritz like, at least one lexpad per line
masak right. 15:07
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masak grammars and thread safety -- where do I put the variables that pertain to my ongoing grammar match, if I don't want them to collide with other matches going on concurrently? 15:08
moritz in the cursor :-)
not only for thread safety 15:09
consider /foo { 'a' ~~ /./ }/
you have to take care that the inner match doesn't mess up the outer one
so you'd better not use globals :-)
masak aye. 15:14
oh, can I store things in my immutable Cursor? great!
moritz in your immutable-ish Cursor, yes 15:15
masak moritz: your example doesn't apply, since it's not a grammar that's re-entrant there.
moritz masak: then modify it accordingly *handwave*
masak but point taken.
moritz the cursor also has to cache the Match object, otherwise the Match'es .ast goes lost 15:17
sorear hello #perl6
masak sorear! \o/ 15:18
moritz hello sorear. How (im)mutable are your cursors?
colomon o/ 15:19
niecza: say Array.new(4, 5, 6).STR 15:20
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: Excess arguments to CORE List.new, used 1 of 4 positionals␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (CORE List.new @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/tx6oYsO2JQ line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2193 (COR…
colomon STUPID CAPS LOCK
niecza: say Array.new(4, 5, 6).Str
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: Excess arguments to CORE List.new, used 1 of 4 positionals␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (CORE List.new @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/QPiyR8e_2h line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2193 (COR…
colomon niecza: say [4, 5, 6].Str
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«4 5 6␤» 15:21
colomon niecza: say (4, 5, 6).list
moritz niecza: say Array.new((4, 5, 6)).Str
sorear moritz: when a Cursor is presented to Perl6-space, it's immutable
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«␤Unhandled Exception: Excess arguments to CORE List.new, used 1 of 2 positionals␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (CORE List.new @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/9NLV4GIrlk line 1 (MAIN mainline @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2193 (COR…
niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«4 5 6␤»
moritz niecza: sub f($x) { say $x }; f((1, 2, 3))
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
sorear moritz: however it holds a back-reference to the RxFrame, which is mutable and holds the ast field, as well as backtrack control info 15:22
so $¢.commit will DWIM (or would if commit were implemented)
colomon gang, t/spec/S32-array/create.t -- should Array.new(4, 5, 6) work? list(4, 5, 6) ? Those are both syntaxes I don't ever recall seeing before.
moritz std: list 1 15:23
sorear "it's in roast, so yes"
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
moritz colomon: I'm pretty sure the 'list' listop is in the specs
colomon std: dsfsdfs(1, 2, 3)
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'dsfsdfs' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 121m␤»
sorear pops back out 15:24
colomon niecza: say (4, 5, 6).list.Str
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«4 5 6␤»
[Coke] (setting is the single outer unit) - pbc_merge fails to address this? 15:26
moritz I'm pretty sure it does
masak colomon: I think I've seen Array.new(4, 5, 6) a few times. 15:27
though how it works bootstrap-ly I have no idea.
moritz it's positionals all the way down :-) 15:28
masak :) 15:29
benabik pbc_merge just puts the subs and constants together in one file. Since P6 has more complex ideas about namespaces and scoping than parrot, you'd have to add more code to tie everything together at that level. 15:30
JimmyZ perl6: sub f(:$x, :&x) { say $x }; f(:x(min(6,2,3)), :x(1, 2, 3))
15:30 mj41 left
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'min' used at line 1␤␤Potential difficulties:␤ &x is declared but not used at /tmp/JqYiXINZ05 line 1:␤------> sub f(:$x, :⏏&x) { say $x }; f(:x(min(6,2,3)), :x(1, ␤␤␤Unhandled Excepti… 15:30
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«123␤»
..rakudo 158bd0: OUTPUT«1 2 3␤»
moritz is kinda surprised that it doesn't blow up
JimmyZ perl6: sub f(:$x, :$x) { say $x }; f(:x(min(6,2,3)))
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'min' used at line 1␤␤Potential difficulties:␤ Useless redeclaration of variable $x (see line 1) at /tmp/8B3kFxpiJZ line 1:␤------> sub f(:$x, :$x⏏) { say $x }; f(:x(min(6,2,3)))␤␤␤Un…
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«2␤» 15:31
..rakudo 158bd0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol $x at line 1, near ") { say $x"␤»
15:31 MayDaniel left, simcop2387 left
JimmyZ thinks it's a bug 15:31
masak it is.
such a signature with two named parameters save for the sigil is illegal. 15:32
I remember moritz and me spec'ing the rules for that.
moritz std: -> :$x, :&x { }
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 122m␤»
masak STD is lagging :)
JimmyZ std: -> :$x, :$x { }
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Useless redeclaration of variable $x (see line 1) at /tmp/FKzWHzu2P5 line 1:␤------> -> :$x, :⏏$x { }␤ok 00:01 121m␤»
masak that's too lenient, if you ask me.
it's fine for lexicals in general, but not for a siggie. 15:33
JimmyZ perl6: sub f(:$x, :%x) { say $x };
p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 158bd0: ( no output )
..niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ %x is declared but not used at /tmp/UvwYaQgjMv line 1:␤------> sub f(:$x, :⏏%x) { say $x };␤ &f is declared but not used at /tmp/UvwYaQgjMv line 1:␤------> sub f⏏(:$x, :%x) { say $x };␤␤»…
masak binding is serious business :)
moritz and signatures are complex beasts 15:34
JimmyZ niecza has this bug too
15:34 simcop2387 joined 15:42 preflex left 15:43 preflex joined 15:50 cognominal_ joined
moritz masak: I think you were referring to 60657ebc7f9d9410a7fcc3769fd268fcad732127, which is only about positional parameters :/ 15:50
JimmyZ nom: class A { multi fun() { say 'zero' ; }; multi sub fun(2) { say 'two'; }; method hi() { fun(); fun(2); } }; my A $a .=new; $a.hi(); 15:51
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«zero␤two␤»
masak moritz: no, I'm referring to S06:705 15:52
moritz: the commit you refer to is a precursor to what ended up there. 15:53
15:53 MayDaniel joined
moritz ok :-) 15:53
15:54 cognominal left
masak decommutes 15:59
PerlJam masak: whenever you decommute, does that mean you are no longer commutative? 16:02
daxim perl6: (masak ⊕ masak).say 16:05
p6eval rakudo 158bd0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 1, near "(masak \u2295 m"␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«decodeUTF8': bad data: '\8853'␤*** ␤ Unexpected "\8853"␤ expecting bare or pointy block construct, ":", identifier, operator or ")"␤ at /tmp/SN20dnC73O line 1, column 8␤»
..niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Confused at /tmp/rZppPdK7eE line 1:␤------> (masak ⏏⊕ masak).say␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'masak' used at line 1␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
tadzik nom: <masak ⊕ masak>.say 16:06
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«masak ⊕ masak␤»
benabik daxim: masak knows perl6, but perl6 doesn't know masak.
.oO( mask may commute, but knowledge doesn't? )
 16:07
*masak, stupid autocorrect
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JimmyZ nom: sub f(:&x) { say &x }; f(:x(min)) 16:11
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '&x'; expected Callable but got Num instead␤ in sub f at /tmp/WYVvIUDWfr:1␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/WYVvIUDWfr:1␤ in <anon> at /tmp/WYVvIUDWfr:1␤»
donri alla känner apan men apan känner ingen
moritz phenny: se "apan"? 16:12
phenny moritz: "monkey" (se to en, translate.google.com)
moritz ah right, "ape"
JimmyZ why expected Callable but got Num ?
moritz JimmyZ: because you called min, not returned a reference to it 16:13
moritz anticommutes
JimmyZ moritz: thanks
benabik nom: sub f(:&x) { say &x }; f(:x(&min))
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«Sub.new()␤»
JimmyZ nom: sub f(:&x) { say &x(5, 3,6) }; f x => &min 16:16
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«3␤»
JimmyZ nom: sub f(:&x, |$c) { say &x(|$c) }; f x => &min, 5,2,3 16:17
p6eval nom 158bd0: OUTPUT«2␤»
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TimToady masak: I'm thinking of changing the macro placeholder syntax to something more like $term:ast($x) to indicate the desired category 16:53
possibly it wants a new sigil
moritz .u § 16:54
phenny U+00A7 SECTION SIGN (§)
TimToady §term:ast($x)
you beat me to it :)
moritz that one's still free :-)
TimToady I'm also rethinking whether we really need a no-non-Latin-1-by-default rule 16:55
or whether that's just a sop to the Unicode-haters 16:56
and a relatively meaningless one
16:56 risou is now known as risou_awy
TimToady I'm not sure that built-in types like sets should be deprived of their natural operators by default 16:57
and after helping with the Unicode chapter in camel4, I see that Perl is getting starting to get a reputation for being the best langauge for Unicode 16:58
and I'd hate to work against that with an artificial rule
with a new sigil, we could remove the 'ast' and just have §term:($x), which is pretty concise 16:59
and then you can have §infix:($y) or §parameter:($p) 17:00
we'd have to smarten the parsers to allow such a substitution at any proto in the grammar 17:01
(not that parameter is currently parsed with a proto...)
sjohnson hi 17:02
tadzik （　° ー°） <( hi sjohnson! ) 17:03
17:03 Je joined
TimToady § looks too much like $ maybe, so ¶term:($x) might be better 17:03
sjohnson haha
tadzik: yo, how's life
tadzik pretty cool. I got a day off today, feels good
well, more like "I decided not to go to my classes", but still :) 17:04
sjohnson is envious
TimToady or ¤term:($x)
tadzik maybe €term
or <the-pound-sign>
TimToady I kinda like ¤, since it's generic currency
and it looks like a "hole" :) 17:05
17:05 dakkar left
TimToady actually, it looks like a round peg in a square hole :) 17:05
PerlJam What's the criterion of choice for these characters? 17:06
(they have no mnemonic value or anything to me)
TimToady well, I just mentioned a couple of possibilities 17:07
something that is generically fungible is like a macro parameter
and the placeholders have already been called holes 17:08
and placeholders are like square pegs in round holes, or vice versa
I wasn't just saying those things randomly... :) 17:09
it's also rather visually distinct from anything else
and being up in the Latin-1 range, unlikely to be used accidentally, like $¢
PerlJam there's no unicode char that's a square circumscribed by a circle? 17:10
TimToady well, there's ⌼ 17:11
but that's the other way around
㉤ 17:12
17:12 ksi joined
benabik .u ㉤ 17:12
phenny U+3264 CIRCLED HANGUL MIEUM (㉤)
TimToady but things in the Latin-1 range are usually a bit handier on the compose key, or the vim digraphs 17:13
ashleydev .u ⽊ 17:18
phenny U+2F4A KANGXI RADICAL TREE (⽊)
masak TimToady: aww, but I'd just started to see the merits of the ugly {{{ $ast }}} syntax! :/
(namely, if you ever want to nest quasi blocks, it's indispensible) 17:19
17:22 Je left
TimToady not at all 17:23
masak oh right, it falls out of lexical lookup, I guess.
no, wait.
you still have to specify to *which* quasi the placeholder belongs. 17:24
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TimToady ¤term:( quasi { stuff } ) seems straightforward 17:24
masak because it's not at all a given that what's inside the {{{ }}} is a single variable.
er.
TimToady that's why its () 17:25
*it's
so you can have an expression in there
masak I feel we're talking past each other a bit.
quasi { {{{$a}}} ... quasi [ {{{$b}}} [[[$c]]] ] } 17:26
please show this with the new syntax.
PerlJam TimToady: is the category mandatory or just for "hinting" ? 17:27
TimToady it would be mandatory 17:28
masak yes.
grrr, and we're supposed to get *fewer* non-ASCII symbols in core Perl 6, not more... 17:29
TimToady sez hoo?
PerlJam under the current universe categories are implicit by where the macro shows up in the parse?
masak well, the FUD FAQ from 2008 sez it, for one... :)
TimToady I'm not worried about FUD anymore 17:30
masak my point wasn't really about FUD, but about ASCII.
TimToady irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-10-27#i_4623544
masak oh, didn't see that when I skimmed the backlog. 17:31
TimToady it was part of what was addressed to you :)
masak I see :)
17:32 fsergot left
PerlJam TimToady: do you think writing macros will be rampant in Perl 6 or mostly just the use of macros? 17:32
masak I can only give anecdotal counterarguments. most people think it's a PITA to enter non-ASCII (or, more exactly, non-keyboard) characters in their editor.
I'd hate for that to hinder macro adoption.
TimToady macros should be a pita, in some sense :)
masak I definitely don't buy that argument.
TimToady we don't want people overusing htem 17:33
masak "hey, we put this PITA character here to deter you. good luck finding how to type it!"
TimToady yup
PerlJam TimToady: the thing is, I expect people will want to use macros quite a bit.
masak I'd suggest Lisp's prefix:<,> except I see that it doesn't really fit in Perl 6.
PerlJam (use them for Good I mean :)
TimToady and then maybe they'll be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century 17:34
PerlJam or just complain about having to type the funny characters
TimToady let 'em complain
they can always write their own ¤sigil macro 17:35
PerlJam feels like an embedded second system 17:36
TimToady they can write a 'use ASCII-ONLY-DAMNIT;' module if they want
masak TimToady: my vote is on something easy-to-type and entirely innocuous, such as keeping {{{ }}}, or an all-caps identifier, like AST($x)
TimToady won't fly, unless you only ever want terms
PerlJam masak: I'd be fine with a unicode sigil as long as it's not too big of a pain to type or (more importantly) discover how to type 17:37
masak I'm having enough trouble figuring out how to implement only terms :/
TimToady nobody will hold you to implementing ¤infix:() just yet :)
since in general it'll take more parsing hooks than we've done yet
masak PerlJam: good for you. I think no matter which one we find, it'll keep some people back.
TimToady anyone who can't figure out how to copy/paste the first ¤ has NO BUSINESS writing macros, it could be argued 17:38
PerlJam masak: perhaps. Seems like this is one of those delicate balancing acts. (and it makes me glad that TimToady is the language designer :) 17:39
masak quick general poll: people who know/don't know by hand how to type ¢ in their day-to-day editor?
TimToady and {{{ }}} is really very cluttery, when you get down to it
masak s/by hand/by heart/
TimToady quick poll, how many people are worried about Cursor objects directly? 17:40
PerlJam heh
masak TimToady: I'd always thought that {{{ }}} is cluttery, but that's not purely a disadvantage. it stands out, especially with proper color coding.
17:40 bluescreen10 left
TimToady ¤ is really easy for a highlighter to recognize 17:40
and the following word will tell it what state to be in after the ()
masak any highlighter that isn't a Perl 6 parser will be toast highlighting Perl 6 anyway...
TimToady {{{ }}} can't
masak should be making supper... 17:41
TimToady I hope we've helped you develop an appetite :)
not lost it :)
PerlJam TimToady: how do you type ¤ ? 17:42
TimToady compose x o
arnsholt PerlJam: I hit the ¤ key on my keyboard =)
TimToady I have a program like the unicode looker upper that greps the compose database instead
masak TimToady: look, you make the rules. :) my initial reaction to the ¤ suggestion is that it's ugly and will have low adoption. {{{ }}} may be ugly, but it's really easy to type.
tadzik I'm with masak, if that matters :) 17:43
TimToady IT WON'T WORK!!!
except for terms...
masak besides, I'm not sure you ever responded to my nested-quasis use case.
PerlJam "low adoption" sounds like a feature :)
masak PerlJam: I disagree.
TimToady I don't know why you're putting an AST as the endpoint of a ...
masak the '...' aren't literal, for once. 17:44
put a ';' in places where needed, if that helps.
PerlJam masak: perhaps that should have been a 1/2 :) I go back and forth on it. But I do think that "macro writers" will proliferate once the technology is in place.
masak the point is that the inner quasi can placeholder the outer quasi.
PerlJam: that remains to be seen. but I do dislike "let's make this a little uncomfortable because it's a dangerous feature"-type arguments. 17:45
TimToady ¤OUTER::term:() then :)
masak yeech :/ 17:46
TimToady the non-negotiable here is that we have to get the grammar rule that we're clobbering in there somewhere
masak well, assuming it's on the top level of the inner quasi...
TimToady at some point it's better to write separate quasis or macros and just compose them
nested {{{ [[[ ]]] }}} is atrocious engineering 17:47
masak TimToady: I always thought it was quite fitting that we only did terms in quasis, since we can only pass in terms as macro arguments anyway.
TimToady you can parse anything an 'is parsed' can return, much more than terms
terms is just the default 17:48
masak I hear what you're saying. this is doing some violence to my mental model of macros.
I need nutrition.
masak cooks
TimToady o/
PerlJam masak: maybe it's a good thing TPF is taking so long on your grant proposal :) 17:49
TimToady
.oO(no battle plan survives first contact with the implementor)
 17:50
.oO(or with the language designer)
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TimToady std: macro foo($a,$b,$c) { quasi { {{{$a}}} ... quasi [ {{{$b}}} [[[$c]]] ] } } 17:56
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/u0YJqAbZeg line 1:␤------> { quasi { {{{$a}}} ... quasi [ {{{$b}}}⏏ [[[$c]]] ] } }␤ expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-in…
TimToady what I thought, doesn't even parse
fundamentally, the parser must know what reduction a macro is replacing, and a quasi-unquote is just a funny looking macro 17:58
well, the parser must know that for hygienic macros, not text macros, to be precise 17:59
text macros can get away with it because the reparse to put parser into the correct final state 18:00
s/the/they/
18:00 Je joined
moritz TimToady: in your mental model, what kind of syntaxes can be replaced with {{{$placeholder}}}, or whatever syntax we'll chose for them? 18:01
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moritz things that the OPP parses for you? 18:01
TimToady any named rule in the grammar
moritz wow. 18:02
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TimToady that's why I said it'd require a bit more work on the parser 18:02
masak std: macro foo($a,$b,$c) { quasi { {{{$a}}}; quasi [ {{{$b}}}; [[[$c]]] ] } }
moritz so even stuff like the identifier in a sigiled variable
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«ok 00:03 140m␤»
18:02 im2ee joined
TimToady it's fine to implement just terms for now, but I want the syntax that expressive 18:02
masak <masak> put a ';' in places where needed, if that helps.
TimToady otherwise we have no argument to bring against the homoiconophiles
masak I'm also worried about the homoiconophiles. 18:03
but mostly because they'll always win on minimal syntax, and maybe on minimal semantics, too.
TimToady otherwise they'll just say "Well, you can't really do anything interesting with just the nouns" 18:04
but also because some of our thunky infixes are already macro-y, and we need to handle that eventually
well, they'll always win the argument that they've pushed the waterbed down maximally in one spot 18:05
masak I'm not planning to do 'is parsed' during my grant. but of course we should plan for it.
18:05 sivoais left
TimToady btw, the semicolon is not sufficient; it's parsing {{{$b}}} is three nested blocks 18:07
*as
no other quotes can reach inside other quotes
[Coke] masak: I have no idea how to type ¢ in my editor of choice. 18:09
masak TimToady: what!? then what is all this futuristic fancy nibbler-based parser architecture *for*?
TimToady: I thought it was *just* these kinds of things it took care of without blinking.
TimToady is tempted to channel MJD
masak seriously, I'm surprised about this. 18:10
TimToady std: qq[ { "]]]]]]]]
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse double quotes at /tmp/yaPNH6pmRF line 1:␤------> qq[ { ⏏"]]]]]]]]␤Couldn't find final '"'; gave up at /tmp/yaPNH6pmRF line 1 (EOF):␤------> qq[ { "]]]]]]]]⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED …
TimToady std: qq[ { "]]]]]]]]" } ]
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
masak right, sure. but those are string quotes. 18:11
TimToady and these are quasi quotes
they're still quotes
masak I guess I assumed that *because* there was this {} <-> {{{}}} sympathy, it would reach through blocks. guess not.
[Coke] masak: though I was able to google it in under a minute, and it'll work on my editor on the 3 platforms I tend to use.
TimToady no place else in Perl 6 tracks multiple start/stop delimiters at the same spot 18:12
and if {} <-> {{{}}} makes you expect that, then maybe that's another reason for breaking it 18:14
and the scoping should be determined by the variable's you reference inside, anyway, methinks 18:15
s/'// 18:16
the parser knows where $a, $b, and $c come from
18:17 sivoais joined
masak right, but that only works for the simple case, where there's just a variable inside. 18:19
also, variables are not really tied to quasis, they're tied to scopes in general. outside macro, inside macro, inside quasi... 18:20
TimToady I think you're still mixing up the quasi-unquasi levels, they're very either-or, whether your in quasi or not, and a nested macro will make that clear 18:21
18:22 Je left 18:24 daniel-s left
TimToady *you're 18:24
18:24 envi_ left
cognominal_ so far, macros are very quasi-modo. 18:34
[Coke] cognominal_: ugh. I had a hunch someone would make that pun.
sjohnson .u music 18:35
phenny U+0749 SYRIAC MUSIC (◌݉)
colomon boy, that rings a bell
TimToady odd that I don't find this conversation bazaar... 18:36
cognominal_ [Coke] :)
nqp: say('a') 18:46
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«a␤»
18:47 leprevost left 18:48 daxim left 18:49 Gruber_ joined 18:51 Je joined, Grrrr left, Gruber_ is now known as Grrrr
colomon just suddenly realized PerlJam might be a reference to the band. Sigh.... 18:58
[Coke] You beat me to it. 19:01
(no pun intended. I never made that cxn either
19:01 araujo left
TimToady That's okay, I laugh three times at every joke: once when it's told, once when it's explained, and once when I get it. :) 19:01
19:02 araujo joined
colomon :) 19:03
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masak TimToady: ok, I've internalized my new understanding of how quasis work. it's still an open question to me whether the semantics I thought was there can be emulated somehow. 19:28
TimToady: also the fact that {{{}}}s don't nest makes me slightly less attached to them. doesn't make me like ¤ better, though. I hope there's a cuter solution out there somewhere. 19:29
19:29 packetknife left
PerlJam
.oO( what I laugh at 3 times is funny? )
 19:30
colomon: no, PerlJam isn't a reference to the band. It was more of a "happy accident" that I chose my nick right around the same time as they were becoming popular. 19:31
colomon: Though my brother actually chose the nick and he probably listened to them at the time while I was oblivious.
masak you let your brother choose IRC nick for you...? 19:32
PerlJam aye. I had a few options, he went with this one, I liked it, it stuck. 19:33
masak perl6: say <perl ruby python>.roll ~ <jam hack jazz>.roll
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Array: "&roll"␤ at /tmp/tz2AeUKQTX line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
..rakudo 158bd0, niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«rubyhack␤»
PerlJam later I went with perlpilot and there was a time I tried "OpenSourceror" :)
masak oops, .roll wasn't fair to Pugs.
PerlJam but ... I'm just too used to PerlJam to change :) 19:34
masak PerlJam: sir, I would've been honored to address you as OpenSourceror :P
colomon wait, rakudo and niecza both came up with the same random choices?
PerlJam colomon: not very random, eh?
masak colomon: yeah, but the chances for that weren't astronomical.
colomon: 1 in 9.
colomon perl6: say <perl ruby python>.roll ~ <jam hack jazz>.roll 19:35
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«rubyjam␤»
..rakudo 158bd0: OUTPUT«rubyhack␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Array: "&roll"␤ at /tmp/8iPxc57Mfr line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
19:35 packetknife joined
masak perl6: say <perl ruby python>.pick ~ <jam hack jazz>.pick 19:35
colomon is relieved.
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«pythonjam␤»
..niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«rubyjazz␤»
..rakudo 158bd0: OUTPUT«perlhack␤»
masak \o/
PerlJam heh
masak nice distribution :)
masak wishes perlhack were here
19:37 bluescreen10 joined 19:38 SHODAN left
masak hm, I wonder if I can create an Epimenides paradox... 19:43
perl6: say "What ", <rakudo niecza pugs>.pick, " says isn't true." 19:44
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«What niecza says isn't true.␤»
..rakudo 158bd0, niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«What rakudo says isn't true.␤»
masak Rakudo went Epimenides.
I don't know about the status of the other two, but it's possible that paradoxicity is contagious. 19:45
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masak is there a more general name for the "forwards compatibility" afforded by OO/interfaces/polymorphism and closures, but not by "regular" procedural programming? 19:48
maybe the answer I'm looking for is "IoC", but I'm not sure... 19:49
PerlJam I'm not sure what you mean by "forwards compatibility", but it doesn't soundlike IoC 19:50
masak when you write code that's able to call on code that hasn't been written yet. 19:51
I can see how such a property might be really nice for big code bases, because it allows you to compensate for changing requirements to some extent. 19:52
without having to re-model, I mean.
colomon That's really pretty standard for C code too, you know. 19:54
PerlJam okay ... still wouldn't call that IoC
japhb masak, that property is in fact one of the most common reasons I write things in OO form when that would be more complex than the procedural form.
"Don't like the way I did it? Derive a subclass and enjoy."
It's not infinitely powerful that way, of course, but it helps with the easy cases. 19:55
PerlJam masak: maybe "defensive design" :)
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masak japhb: sounds like convenience bordering on misuse... :) 20:03
PerlJam: there was a paper that I read that talked about joining-points in the model where things were liable to change. paper said "put your interfaces there". sounded like a good rule of thumb. 20:04
japhb masak, don't forget that virtually every advance in computer language design over the last 50 years was to make something easier or less bug-prone or both. Having learned programming philosophy from Michael Abrash's works at a critical point in my life, I aim to see such constructs for what they can do for me, not what the axe-grinder who invented them thought they should be used for. ;-) 20:06
masak japhb: oh, sans doute. 20:07
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masak japhb: I like to think that way too. the more one sees the various constructs as vehicles that will take you places, the better, I think. 20:08
japhb chuckles
quite.
masak japhb: but there are also "patterns of misuse" that are worth paying attention to.
japhb returns the 'sans doute' comment, with extra emphasis. 20:09
PerlJam
.oO( patterns of abuse? )
masak PerlJam: I was so close to writing that!
sounded wrong, though.
colomon Michael Abrash!!!
japhb sadly, bad connotations to that phrasing in this part of the world
masak yeah, I figgered. 20:10
colomon I adored the Zen of Assembly Language.
japhb colomon, One of my favorites, easily. 20:11
colomon japhb: I haven't read it in ages, and I never really directly applied its contents, but I hope that at least some of the philosophy rubbed off.
japhb I used to wonder what kind of amazing would come from having Michael Abrash and Jon Bentley on the same project. 20:12
colomon, heh. I think that's the important part anyway.
Heck, I think one of the biggest value of that book is taking some simple concepts and driving them home so completely that by the end you practically feel them in your bones. 20:13
colomon You have to actually time it, not just guess where it's slow. :) 20:15
japhb That's a really big one. :-)
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colomon The other thing that really stands out in my memory is the program (from Zen of Graphics, maybe?) which optimized the Game of Life by generating custom machine code for each possible board size (as needed). 20:22
PerlJam japhb: you might find that Jon Bentley and Michael Abrash can't stand each other and fight constantly :) 20:23
japhb One of the things I loved about that Game of Life contest was that when he discovered some people had broken some of the rules to go faster, he was all ready to put his foot down and disqualify them, until he discovered that EVERY entrant would have been disqualified. :-) 20:24
PerlJam, LOL
Well, the mix of Abrash and Carmack was pretty powerful.
But then they were both ASM experts ....
colomon, regarding generating code for each board size ... I'm reminded of a Chuck Moore rant about programmers trying to write general code that is "highly configurable" and "runs everywhere". He argued that you can write an entire OS in a few K if it only has to run on one system -- but that's not as rare as most people think. 20:27
I never go quite that far, but it does serve as a nice reminder when I'm about to make my configuration files Turing complete or decide that I have to run on 16- and 64-bit CPUs or somesuch. 20:29
PerlJam that "entire OS" sounds mostly like a scheduler :)
japhb PerlJam, he wrote his disk drivers in a couple hundred bytes!
The core of Forth is like 4K, and it's a lot more complex than you'd think. 20:30
colomon heh, Thinking Forth was another very influential book for me. :)
masak keeps close notes
PerlJam japhb: I can't imagine that it'd ve more complex than I'd think ;)
s/ve/be/
japhb PerlJam, you're a Forthwright I take it? 20:31
masak japhb: what complexity is one likely to miss when thinking of the Forth core?
PerlJam indeed. 20:32
japhb does>
Also, the Forth core is conceptually compressed in a way that I found mind-bending the first time around. It's like someone had zipped the source to an OS and an editor and somehow kept the output as readable 7-bit ASCII text 20:34
japhb shrugs
But like most moments of enlightenment, it will be obvious to some, and world-changing to others .... 20:35
cognominal_ For one year, I had a job programmaing that beast oldcomputers.net/Panasonic_HHC.html using SnapForth using an Apple II
japhb That thing looks awesome! 20:36
colomon I think I've said it before here, but lately I've started to think that the world of programming languages is like a circle Lisp and Forth, which seem like they ought to be complete opposites, are disturbingly close -- and honestly, I usually like Chuck Moore's choices better than whoever designed Lisp. :)
japhb NOD 20:37
colomon lost a sentence-ending period in there, but hopefully it is still relatively clear.
cognominal_: yow. 20:38
cognominal_ In the same small company, the had also a portable panasonic PC probably around 20kg. They made a point that each pixel was visible instead of desiginng some convolution so that a white screen would be uniservally white 20:39
japhb An odd optimization choice. Why? 20:40
cognominal_ White is not the appropriate word because phosphor displays were not white.
masak colomon: I think it was Paul Graham who said that Lisp and C stand out as the two "pure" languages around which all the others flock.
colomon masak: but Forth is actually much more "pure" than C, and not in C's orbit at all. 20:41
cognominal_ japhb: I don't know. But that striked me as odd. I think they thought this was some form of high precision.
masak colomon: no, Forth is probably in Lisp's orbit, like you say.
colomon masak: but it's not. 20:42
it's hard to explain.
japhb It really is a world of its own.
masak heh. snobs :P
cognominal_ Doing forth helped me immensely when I programmed with NeWS at Sun which was a window system based on PostScript.
colomon Forth was the first structured language I ever programmed in, I loved it on my Commodore 64. 20:43
cognominal_ Doing windowing programming using exch, pop and roll was weird.
japhb Now there's an image.
masak has any one checked out False?
it feels a bit like APL, Forth, and Perl all mixed together. 20:44
cognominal_ So NeWS was years ahead as an imaging system, even if the implementation was very bad, but sucked as a language.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeWS
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colomon masak: False looks like the ugly predecessor of Factor 20:46
masak Factor looks like a modern Forth to me. 20:50
niecza: my @a = 1; push @a, $_ if any(@a) * any(2, 3, 5) == $_ for 2..1000; say @a.perl 20:52
p6eval niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, 16, 18, 20, 24, 25, 27, 30, 32, 36, 40, 45, 48, 50, 54, 60, 64, 72, 75, 80, 81, 90, 96, 100, 108, 120, 125, 128, 135, 144, 150, 160, 162, 180, 192, 200, 216, 225, 240, 243, 250, 256, 270, 288, 300, 320, 324, 360, 375, 3…
masak O(N ** 2) way to generate the Hamilton sequence ;) 20:53
er, Hamming sequence. 20:54
colomon masak: Forth old timers won't like that, but it seems like a pretty fair summary. :)
dynamically typed, higher order Forth. :) 20:55
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masak let the pair (X, Y) denote the assertion "language X drinks very deeply from the well of programming concept Y" 21:01
(Forth, stacks)
(Lisp, ASTs)
(APL, operators) 21:02
sbp APL drank so deeply from the well of programming concept operators that it passed out
TimToady (Perl,_)
masak TimToady: what, trailing commas? :P 21:03
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masak underscores? 21:03
TimToady I'm thinking in Prolog
masak yes, I realize.
so, "Perl, whatever"
which is quite fitting, considering. 21:04
"In Perl, you can go overboard with any programming concept you like!"
"We let *you* pick the foot to shoot yourself in!"
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masak :P 21:05
tadzik . o O ( everything is a subject )
sjohnson .oO ( fat face )
masak "Perl gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot!"
sbp ugh, I need a #perl6-overflow to pipe all my bad jokes to 21:06
("in Soviet Russia, everything *subjects* you!")
somebody make things happen
masak perl6: say "things, happen" 21:07
sjohnson 14( 13*14≖‿≖13*14)
p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo 158bd0, niecza v10-66-g71325b0: OUTPUT«things, happen␤»
sbp you know, I've been lurking here for about a year now hoping that one day I would feel guilty enough to actually sit down and write a whole perl6 library or weave together a whole book getting people into perl6. at least every bad joke I make does make me feel one infintesimally small step closer to that goal 21:08
programming, Zeno's way
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masak sbp: lurkers are like neutrons. suddenly, one day they transform into a charged particle and get busy :) 21:09
sjohnson masak: i'm a late blooping electron
masak sjohnson: :)
sbp I don't know, I'm quite thankful for my neutrons as well as my protons and other charged particles
I wouldn't feel the same without them 21:10
masak I'm not sure my analogy landed intact.
sbp I read some article years ago about learning new natural languages, that said you have to work especially hard compared to most other tasks because if you already know a language your brain doesn't really see any particular reason to learn a new one, so it complains extra hard 21:11
I wonder if something similar is true of programming languages
I learned a lot of languages more or less simultaneously, and now... hard to gather the momentum
bonsaikitten sbp: immersion
sbp what do you think I'm doing *here*? :-)
bonsaikitten if you try to learn something just to pad your resume it's hard... get forced to learn or die and you will refuse to just die :) 21:12
bonsaikitten is just starting to absorb Mandarin ... nice brain teaser
masak I'll say.
sbp: for me, it was "have I tried to write X in Perl 6 yet?" -- I'm still coming up with stuff I haven't tried. ;) 21:13
sbp it is interesting to see how people learn programming languages. lots of different approaches. I learn most from just sitting down and tinkering by trial and error, or osmosis from places like this; but some people like strong guides
bonsaikitten masak: I get distracted too easily ... "hey, how does agetty work?"
sbp I'd like to see animated code that has two columns
masak bonsaikitten: 你住在哪里？ 21:14
sbp one column is syntax highlighted code, the other is some structure that the code is operating on. then for each step of the process, the code that performs that action, and the relevant section in the operated-upon data, are simultaneously highlighted
(I did make something similar for a small bit of JavaScript once, but it wasn't really for educational purposes)
but I don't know if that's too passive. it's also quite hard work to set up 21:15
bonsaikitten masak: not yet :) let me learn pinyin and a base vocabulary to a sane level before I escalate to hansi
masak bonsaikitten: fair enough -- don't wait too long with the hanzi, though :) 21:16
they're 1/3 of the words, besides sound and meaning.
masak yawns
japhb Oh, that reminds me: every so often in the last couple years I've seen code presented on the web in some variant of literate programming: the prose goes in one column, the source next to it, and each block of code and section of text are aligned horizontally, so you can scroll down to the part you are interested in, and look directly to one side to read the commentary. Anyone remember what program does this (assuming my description was cl
ear enough)?
bonsaikitten yes,one thing at a time :) 21:17
masak 'night, bonsai butterflies
cognominal_ japhb: docco
sbp same guy who made CoffeeScript
masak jashkenas.github.com/docco/
sbp @lazyweb p6occo! 21:18
cognominal_ it spwaned a cottage industry cuz it has been translated in many languages.
sbp cameliocco?
they should have called the Java one doccocino 21:19
japhb cognominal_, masak, thanks!
cognominal_ japbh: I have written some stuff to dynamically view a parse tree that is inspired from docco. It is in standby. I am waiting for nom to be fixed github.com/cognominal/code-viewer 21:23
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im2ee Good night! :) 21:28
o/
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jnthn ...well, that was more than a few hours. And more than a couple of beers... :) 23:00
Hm, and I have meetingish thingy in the morning. Guess I don't get Rakudo tuits tonight then. But it was good to go and relax for a while. 23:02
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[Coke] jnthn: there is no problem beers more better. 23:28
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supernovus what is the best way to empty an array without splice? 23:52
abercrombie @a=() 23:56
supernovus abercrombie: thanks, that'll work just fine. I still hope splice gets fixed soon though :-) 23:57

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