»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
tadzik [Coke]: what time tomorrow? 00:01
00:02 stepnem left 00:06 thou left
[Coke] tadzik: I don't know when the extension is good until. 00:07
checking dukeleto's email...
tadzik istr "Monday"
00:08 stepnem joined
tadzik well, it's Monday 1AM 00:08
[Coke] Monday, November 28th at 8:00 UTC 00:09
tadzik okay
[Coke] colomon: looking at colomon/ABC on github; a "here's how you run it" would be very helpful. 00:10
diakopter sorear: all the ones supported by libicu I guess..? 00:11
hm, nqp doesn't seem to support "\c[UNICODE CHAR NAME]" 00:12
diakopter looks into adding it 00:25
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colomon [Coke]: apologies! I've had "proper readme for ABC" on my todo list for about three months now... 00:46
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diakopter sorear: why 01:00
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diakopter std: /<-:!InArrows>/ 01:14
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤» 01:15
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sorear diakopter: I didn't think Parrot supported very many char props 01:19
diakopter oh
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diakopter oh hm, I was wrong about nqp not supporting \c[] 01:20
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dalek ast: f199800 | diakopter++ | S05-mass/properties- (4 files):
change properties rx to the new syntax
 01:28
diakopter who knows what I just broke 01:31
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tadzik adds some new GCI tasks 03:14
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djanatyn tadzik: :D 03:17
Where's the GCI task listing page, again?
tadzik djanatyn: some are already on :)
djanatyn :O
what should I search for, "perl 6"? 03:18
tadzik I... am not sure :)
yeah, the ones I added are all tagged "perl6"
djanatyn hmm, I guess they all got snatched up 03:19
GCI doesn't have a very nice search feature, IMO
tadzik to say it gently
djanatyn I'll check back again tommorow morning, in ...let's see 03:20
7 hours
Do you think there will be a bunch of perl6 tasks avaiable by then?
tadzik moritz: I'm adding you as a mentor to all tasks, I hope you don't mind :)
djanatyn: they are available now :) 03:21
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tadzik like www.google-melange.com/gci/task/edi...11/7185260 03:21
this one could be tough
djanatyn hmm, it says that I can't edit it 03:25
tadzik oh
djanatyn I tried replacing s/task/view in the url, and it said that the page was inactive at this time 03:26
tadzik well, I'm not suprised :)
how about www.google-melange.com/gci/task/vie...11/7195397 ?>
www.google-melange.com/gci/task/vie...11/7185260 should be ok too 03:27
ok, time for me to get some sleep
djanatyn Both of those say "This page is inactive at this time" 03:29
but, don't worry about it, I'll figure it out tommorow
g'night
diakopter o/
colomon \o
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moritz djanatyn: it looks like the tasks need to be approved by an admin first 06:43
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diakopter moritz: could you review the last commit to roast? 06:46
moritz diakopter: I believe that some of them are wrong 06:48
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moritz -ok("\x[8340]" ~~ m/^<!isInArabicPresentationFormsA>.$/ 06:48
+ok("\x[8340]" ~~ m/^<:!InArabicPresentationFormsA>.$/,
diakopter: <!...> is zero-width, but I don't think <:!...> is
or is it?
sorear <:!foo> means <-:foo> 06:49
diakopter ! there wasn't zero-width
moritz then why is tehre a dot after it?
sorear <!foo> is zero width, <-foo> is not
diakopter oh, hm
I guess all the :! should be !: then? 06:50
moritz no 06:51
just remove the dots
diakopter how would that keep the meaning (sorry it's taking me so long to understand) 06:52
moritz well
previously it was <zero-width>. 06:53
then it's <one-character>
diakopter I still don't understand; I'm sorry 06:54
moritz the old tests did not test negative character classes
but zero-width assertions, followed by a dot
that combination emulated a negative character class
Woodi hi, functional programming arive some time ago, maybe time for something new ? games programing ! :) chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Parallel+Search 06:55
moritz diakopter: are you with me so far?
diakopter moritz: no; the zero-width assertion followed by a dot doesn't seem to me it would emulate a negative character class
moritz diakopter: but it does 06:56
it says "match if the next character is not isInArabicPresentationFormsA. Match one character"
diakopter oh; that's what ! means. I see now 06:57
moritz that's the same as says "match the next character if it is not isInArabicPresentationFormsA"
diakopter I forgot ! meant negated.
moritz aye, <!foo> is short for <!before <foo>>
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dalek ast: 7ea256e | diakopter++ | S05-mass/properties- (4 files):
braino
 07:01
diakopter I haven't found any tests for things like <+ :HexDigit - :Upper > 07:04
and for &|^ combos and for parens grouping 07:05
seems kinda hard to implement anyway
nqp: say(1^^0) 07:09
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Confused at line 1, near "say(1^^0)"␤current instr.: 'nqp;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 23429 (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pir:6732) (src/stage2/gen/NQPHLL.pm:329)␤»
moritz diakopter: those features are relatively new 07:17
and thus not tested yet
maybe they are tested as <+alpha-hexdigit> or so somewhere 07:18
sorear &|^ combos are _extremely_ new 07:20
diakopter oh :)
sorear nobody implements them yet; I know how but lack the tuits atm 07:21
they will very likely be in niecza v13
diakopter std: /<:a -:b>/ 07:23
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 120m␤»
diakopter nom: say "a" ~~ /<[ab] | [b]>/ 07:26
p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at line 1, near "| [b]>/"␤»
diakopter nom: say "a" ~~ /<[ab] + [b]>/ 07:27
p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«=> <a>␤␤»
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jnthn mornin' 08:30
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moritz \o 08:42
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sorear o/ 08:57
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snarkyboojum o_ 09:05
moritz )o. 09:06
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masak o- 09:16
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moritz www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=940242 might interest you... or not. I kinda think I'm wasting my time 09:47
masak moritz: typo: ss/most of use/most of us/ 09:49
moritz masak: thanks, fixed 09:50
masak oh, it's a discussion with chromatic. 09:51
masak stops reading out of self-preservation
moritz it didn't start as one.
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masak I think I know the terrain of opinion that chromatic maps out. I've read it many times, I've understood it, and reading it again doesn't give me anything. 09:52
it can lower morale unnecessarily, though.
I believe we are addressing his concerns as fast as we can with our resources, and have been all the time. 09:53
...and I do sympathise. my code has often been the canary for breakages. 09:54
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masak that is, after all, what it's like being an early adopter. things break when whole subsystems (in Rakudo or Parrot) get replaced. 09:55
gfldex i noticed :-> 09:57
masak what I feel is unfair and silly in chromatic's comments is the "rewrites cause things to break, and take too long! I told you so!" component. 09:58
as if we're doing the rewrites just for the heck of it to see things get worse.
gfldex at the other head, it's christmas every time something starts to works again
moritz well, he does emphasize that he doesn't tell developers what to do...
probably because he doesn't have a plan of action either that both works and avoids breakage
jnthn "There's also still no new Rakudo Star release." - OK, so let's get this straight. He complains about lack of stability/continuity/stuff keeping working, then complains about the fact that we didn't put out a new star release? The point of the Star ones is to provide something more stable. If that's his interest, why is he even looking at the compiler releases? 09:59
masak he does reserve the right to produce bad press, though, or the equivalent of it.
moritz ah well, a waste of time.
jnthn That we haven't rushed out a star relesae with tons of regressions is a *strength*.
masak :(
I'm starting to see why it's important to identify and isolate panics in individuals. 10:00
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masak wishes pmichaud were here 10:04
snarkyboojum there's always the good ol' line "the show must go on" :D
masak snarkyboojum: absolutely. let's continue delivering Perl 6 to the world. :) 10:05
snarkyboojum masak: I have nothing but respect and awe for perl6 hackers, and yes I agree :D 10:08
masak and while we're at it, let's think a bit more about chromatic's definition of "product". the Star releases are pointing in that direction, I believe, but surely we can do more, with our limited but nonzero resources. 10:10
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moritz nom: say $*VM 10:24
p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«("name" => "parrot", "config" => {"git_describe" => "RELEASE_3_10_0-30-ga8cb7da", "sha1" => "a8cb7da75c1c7e1db08a6d50330044b831347fe1", "a" => ".a", "ar" => "ar", "ar_extra" => "", "ar_out" => "", "archname" => "x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi", "arflags" => "cr", "as" …
moritz nom: say %*VM
p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«Failure.new()␤»
moritz std: my @a; $@a 10:26
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Invalid hard reference syntax at /tmp/quWOLnzCf7 line 1:␤------> my @a; $⏏@a␤ expecting any of:␤ desigilname␤ twigil␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 120m␤»
moritz why is that forbidden?
why not make it the equivalent of $(@a) ?
masak sounds good to me, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a reason not to that I don't see right now. 10:27
what does $(@a) mean, exactly? 'item @a'?
moritz yes
(modulo precdence) 10:28
masak is there a difference between 'item @a' and [email@hidden.address] there is for .list
moritz if you override .item, yes 10:31
but what's the difference for .list?
masak hold on, I'll get the relevant backlog. 10:32
irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-11-18#i_4726855 10:35
moritz nom: class X::Foo { ... }; class X::Foo { } 10:41
p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤The following packages were stubbed but not defined:␤ X::Foo␤␤»
moritz jnthn: ^^ that one is blocking me on the exceptions stuff 10:42
moritz RTs it 10:43
masak moritz++
was just gonna ask :)
tadzik good morning 10:45
mls morning!
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phenny mls: 26 Nov 20:01Z <jnthn> tell mls it seems that any infinite recursion in Rakudo generates a hang when trying to find an exception handler 10:45
jnthn nom: class Y::Foo { ... }; class Y::Foo { }
p6eval nom 2154eb: ( no output )
jnthn er. :)
moritz there's a 'my package X { }' in the setting
but if I put Foo into that package, the error stays the same 10:46
jnthn nom: package Y { }; class Y::Foo { ... }; class Y::Foo { }
p6eval nom 2154eb: ( no output )
jnthn nom: my package Y { }; class Y::Foo { ... }; class Y::Foo { }
p6eval nom 2154eb: ( no output )
sorear niecza: class X::Foo { ... }; class X::Foo { } # curious 10:47
p6eval niecza v11-27-gdaa9117: ( no output )
sorear out
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jnthn moritz: Oddness. Guess you didn't golf it beyond having the setting involved? 10:47
moritz nom: class Y::Foo { ... }; my package Y { }; class Y::Foo { }
p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤The following packages were stubbed but not defined:␤ Y::Foo␤␤»
moritz jnthn: I just did :-) 10:48
jnthn oh
...do we actually do that?
(put the Y::Foo before the my package Y)?
moritz yes
erm
masak that happens, yes.
moritz I don't know how else to do it
masak it's a legitimate use case.
moritz both X and X::Foo are defined in Exceptions.pm 10:49
jnthn nom: my class Y::Foo { ... }; my package Y { }; my class Y::Foo { }
p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤The following packages were stubbed but not defined:␤ Y::Foo␤␤»
moritz and I need to throw typed exceptions earlier than that
jnthn moritz: Is there a reason for the "my package Y { }"?
Are you actually putting something in it?
It's a bug though for sure. 10:50
moritz jnthn: well, it's there because nested packages didn't work when I wrote the code
erm
x::foo package didn't work
jnthn moritz: Yeah, I thought I fixed that bit up :)
moritz jnthn: I'll try to change that 10:51
jnthn The whole notion of "my x::foo { }" is kinda weird though. The my only applies to the x.
What bothers me more is that if the setting does my X::Foo { }, and somebody in their programs creates a class X::Bar { }, then it's going and adding an extra entry into X.WHO 10:53
moritz erm 10:54
that's... ugly
jnthn Indeed
moritz can't we just store X::Foo in the lexpad, and lookup X::Foo in the lexpad first
and only look into X:: if we don't find it in the lexpad?
jnthn You mean, store the thing with the colons in the lexpad?
moritz ye 10:55
s
jnthn eek :)
That will mean that
X::Foo
X.WHO.<Foo>
Would give different results
moritz aye
jnthn No, I don't think that'll fly.
What may work is that we create a new package in the lexpad and copy the .WHO 10:56
Just like a multi copies its outer's candidate list and then adds its own stuff
moritz hmmm
jnthn isn't really happy with a lot of package-y stuff at the moment, tbh.
It's ended up pretty complex to try and get things to fall out correctly. I feel I'm missing some clean realization of package nested that does the things we want. 10:57
moritz kinda thinks that sorear will agree there 10:58
masak :) 11:00
jnthn Maybe we want too much. :) 11:02
moritz Perl 6 -- Maybe we want too much. 11:05
masak ^_^ 11:06
jnthn Well, I think part of it is that many, many things have become far more lexically oriented. So packages - in terms of their namespacing role - have become far less prominent. 11:07
sub dispatch doesn't even looking in the package any more, for example.
Exportation is package-ish, but actually relies on a lexically scoped EXPORT package in the UNIT of the module doing the exporting. And so forth. 11:08
I think the only thing that's packaged scoped by default is...packages. :) 11:09
moritz and our-variables :-)
and enums, iirc (but they are pseudo packages, no?) 11:10
jnthn nom: enum Foo <a b c>; $Foo::x = 42; say $Foo::x 11:11
p6eval nom 2154eb: OUTPUT«42␤»
jnthn Seems so :)
Probably EnumHOW does Stashing or some such :) 11:12
moritz :-)
djanatyn Hmm, still can't find any perl6 tasks. :\
tadzik asks on #gci 11:13
moritz std: my class Y::A::B { ... }; class Y::Z { }; class Y::A::B { } 11:14
p6eval std be1f10e: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 119m␤»
moritz nom: my class Y::A::B { ... }; class Y::Z { }; class Y::A::B { } 11:15
p6eval nom 2154eb: ( no output )
djanatyn tadzik: \o/ 11:16
thank you.
moritz djanatyn: www.google-melange.com/gci/task/vie...11/7177376
djanatyn Oh, sweet! 11:18
Okay, I can see that task.
moritz www.google-melange.com/gci/task/vie...11/7184225 11:19
djanatyn: just search for 'Moritz Lenz' as a mentor
though it seems only 3 are approved 11:20
djanatyn Okay, I claimed the "Style for perl6.org" task :) 11:21
moritz \o/
djanatyn I can do a bit of webdesign, and I really like the perl6.org site
I've wanted to steal something from it a long time :)
although I'll probably try to make it look like the perl6 module directory 11:22
moritz if you want, you can link to stylesheets on those pages directly
djanatyn Ah, that sounds like a good idea
moritz and add custom box stuff in the custom css
djanatyn okay, well, thank you for helping me :) 11:23
I've gotta get ready for school, see ya.
moritz have the appropriate amount of fun :-)
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Woodi hmm, I logged in but in other tab. but not want to be anonymous, www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=940401 13:32
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masak hm. for a post about how yelling does not help, I'm not sure that post helped either. :/ 13:34
daxim I'm barely involved. Woodi, I read your post/it mostly comes across to me as "I need to vent my frustrations" 13:36
masak yeah.
[Coke] I am bemused that chromatic is venting on perlmonks, which is clearly too slow to be usable for any practical purpose. ;) 13:37
masak I'm frustrated at chromatic too, but... not publicly, in posts.
[Coke]: chromatic visits #perl6 quite seldom. he's done it three times in 2011, every time after he wrote a blog post about Perl 6 and the #perl6 regulars misconstrued it in some way or other. 13:38
colomon I dunno, I think I'm kind of feeling the pain chromatic is describing. 13:39
[Coke] I felt all that pain just using parrot.
colomon I mean, nom is pretty awesome, but we're still struggling to get back functionality we had a year and a half ago in b
JimmyZ most by a wonderful vision. 13:40
[Coke] I cannot tell you how many times I had to re-write partcl, for example. (not including the most recent 'try to rewrite it in nqp' which is now already obsolete since nqp is no longer the newest/best thing)
so, to be using something that is using parrot, and going through its own rewrite cycles, is no doubt frustrating. I am unsure who his target audience is, though. 13:41
colomon [Coke]: yeah, I surely don't think all the blame lies with the Rakudo developers!
[Coke] not the early adopters. we already know about the issues; Is it the people who are waiting for perl6 ? because they were already waiting, either in anticipation or uncaringly.
daxim James Russell is the target audience 13:42
colomon but I do kind of think that maybe in retrospect, nom was made the master branch about six months too early.
[Coke] the developers are just trying to make a decent product with limited tuits.
masak colomon: I'm not saying chromatic is *wrong*. it does feel like he's overstating facts he should know the causes of, though. but he's probably colored by recent disillusionment.
[Coke] colomon: if no one was working on master... what problem would keeping master master have solved?
anyway, sunk costs, they is us: are we heading in the right direction from where we are now? 13:43
masak the ng refactor and the nom refactor were both quite big, and followed each other fairly quickly. but they've both led to more features and more stability. I'd argue they were inevitable. 13:44
colomon [Coke]: it certainly feels like we're moving in the right direction, just frustratingly slowly.
masak because the alternative would've been the sitution in 2008: tight Parrot coupling, partial features, no-where to develop Rakudo, instability. 13:45
colomon masak: on chromatic, if nothing else dismissing niecza out of hand is pretty crazy.
masak it's easy to forget that those refactors were made for sound architectural reasons.
JimmyZ is -1 to Hague Grant Application: PL/Perl6 Infrastructure and Improvements 13:46
masak colomon: I cannot judge that. I don't live in the US, where patent fights seem a real threat.
jnthn I find it mostly depressing that people think we go through painful rewrites for the fun of it.
dalek : d445465 | duff++ | misc/perl6advent-2011/topic-brainstorming:
Add R* topic
jnthn It's NOT FUN.
masak the nom one is meant to be the last big one.
jnthn Certainly for my tenure in Rakudo development, nom is the last big one. 13:47
daxim I don't believe it
[Coke] masak: you so funny.
masak [Coke]: no, really. we don't have more switchings out of grammar engine and object model on the horizon.
I'm not saying there won't be more refactors. of course there will be.
jnthn Sure there will be.
masak but they will be much smaller in scope and duration. 13:48
[Coke] apologizes for doing pretty much nothing perl 6 related over his most recent break.
jnthn The thing with ng, in hindsight, was that it dealt with some architectural issues, but left others unresolved.
[Coke] does feel a lot less stressed, though. :)
Woodi hmm, then, again :) , maybe set points to achive in implementing spec parts - to avoid frustration. points defining is trick in busting morale i hear :) 13:49
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Woodi so mark few features somehow... 13:49
becouse horisont is far far away....
JimmyZ rakudo is going very well, imo 13:50
but parrot .... 13:51
Woodi how many developers in parrot atm ?
masak ooh, misc/perl6advent-2011/topic-brainstorming! I had missed that until now. 13:52
PerlJam I sometimes think that chromatic purposely makes bold? loud? controversial? claims on various forums just to goad certain people into making things better or proving him wrong. 13:53
daxim I call it the reverse troll
Woodi sometimes it work
daxim yes
PerlJam but it's one of those things that can only be viewed in hindsight. It's a the superposition of a rant and a "I meant to do that" 13:54
daxim I love a good rant.
dalek : b43b813 | colomon++ | misc/perl6advent-2011/schedule:
Claim a couple of days.
 13:55
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colomon darn, I love editing right on github. :) 13:56
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PerlJam The most useful an disturbing item of note in that perlmonks thread is that most people seem to talk about perl 6 in the future tense. :-( 13:58
s/an/and/
moritz++ for fighting the good fight 13:59
masak PerlJam: outsiders always seem to talk about Perl 6 in the future tense. "Perl 6 will do <something desired>", even in the cases when it already has the feature or does that thing. 14:00
PerlJam: what they mean is maybe "When I start using Perl 6, it'll do <something desired> for me."
PerlJam "Perl 6 Now!" sounds like a good article for someone to write. :) 14:01
masak sounds like a good button to wear, too.
PerlJam oh, there's scrottie's book called "Perl 6 Now" but that's about Perl 5 stuff
colomon except "Perl 6 Now!" sounds a little bit like you're demanding it rather than proclaiming it. 14:02
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masak colomon: who's saying we're not? :) 14:02
PerlJam :-)
donri Perl 6 In Our Lifetime! 14:03
jnthn imagines a bunch of protesters with "Perl 6 Now!" placards
.oO( Occupy Perl 6! )
PerlJam colomon: How about "Perl 6 in the Present Tense" ? doesn't quite have a ring to it ;)
colomon PerlJam: I was thinking "Perl 6 is now" but that's not quite right either.
masak "Using Perl 6, and It's Great" 14:04
PerlJam jnthn: occupy <places where programming languages are popular>
donri occupy freenode
JimmyZ Is there any dynamic language's nci better than perl6's, which jnthn++ writes ?
daxim you're not focusing. in terms of jwz, how can perl 6 get me laid? 14:05
PerlJam In any case, chromatic is entirely correct about one thing: people *are* waiting for "Perl 6 the Product" 14:09
colomon and he's correct it's not here yet, either, IMO.
PerlJam yep
colomon On the other hand, trying to use it now is one of the single most useful things you can do to help get it to where it is going. 14:10
jnthn Yes, but abrasive posts that irritate and suck up the time of people working on it will most certainly NOT help get "Perl 6 the Product" to be here.
PerlJam really ... it's all Perl 5's fault. If it hadn't set the bar so high, we'd already be there ;) 14:11
masak no-one complained about chromatic's prolixity when he was on our side :P
PerlJam masak: do you mean to say that he's no longer "on our side"? 14:12
masak PerlJam: for all I know, he's moved to a monastery with excellent wireless, and picked up COBOL. 14:13
daxim you're all individuals!
colomon daxim: I'm not
masak :P
colomon is sorear back from vacation yet? 14:18
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jnthn colomon: Believe so...saw him this morning 14:18
colomon \o/
I need to talk to him about optimizing mandelbrot in niecza. :)
masak best way to optimize mandelbrot in general, at least according to the Fractint school of thought, is to do it all with integer math. 14:21
colomon masak: I'd be surprised if that were true in a p6 context 14:22
actually, I'd be a little bit surprised if it were even true on modern x86 platforms 14:23
it certainly was awesomely true in the "good ole days"
masak aye. 14:24
colomon basically, what seemed screamingly fast in niecza for writing mandelbrot to a file seems painfully slow when you're waiting for a window to draw.
PerlJam colomon: For Dec 1, a godo retro-post would include how to get pugs ;)
s/godo/good/
(how does that happen?) 14:25
colomon PerlJam: brains -- they are untrustworthy things
masak finger un-sync?
PerlJam anyway ... time for the day-of-endless-meetings for me 14:26
PerlJam &
JimmyZ how about NativeCall to be core setting? hehe
jnthn JimmyZ: It should need a "use" directive 14:27
JimmyZ: We'll include it in R*
Doesn't need/want to be in the compiler itself, imo.
JimmyZ core lib is fine too...
14:30 robins is now known as robinsmidsrod
JimmyZ or github.com/quietfanatic/link-c , which can parse *.h files 14:30
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Woodi code like: ... method ping() { $!sock.send( "$4\r\nPING\r\n" ) or return False; my Str $resp = $!sock.get() or return False; return True if $resp eq '+PONG'; return False }; ... }; for ^10000 { $r.ping() } 15:06
takes 1.2s on nom atm. on Perl5 0.4s. who to blame ? parrot or rakudo ?
masak that question is age-old, and unanswerable. 15:07
it's like asking "nature or nurture?"
Woodi you like unanswerable questions :)
masak the architectures of Parrot and Rakudo mesh into each other.
jnthn Woodi: Am I reading that right? Just a factor of 3 different from Perl 5? 15:09
Woodi just tested. will check 15:10
tadzik oddness :)
jnthn We...normally have a bigger gap ;)
[Coke] jnthn: a factor of 3 and he's complaining! ;)
Woodi 1.26s, will extract to separate script and test 15:11
masak how much of that is startup time? 15:12
Woodi $s = now; after startup 15:13
count just code time
must test, maybe i mess something 15:14
masak rakudo: my $s1 = now; my $s2 = now; say $s2 - $s1
p6eval rakudo 2154eb: OUTPUT«0.0161627759174326␤»
masak well, a "now" call takes ~0.016 seconds :P 15:15
jnthn That seems excessive... 15:17
Woodi sending 10k pings one by one takes now 1.15s but all script execution 6.14s real and 5.78s user
problem is that redis optimization - pipelining - should work better but work few time longer... probably my code is to nested :) 15:19
jnthn Woodi: Well, best way to find out where it spends time is profiling :) 15:20
mls jnthn: please pull github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/43 15:21
Woodi Pure Perl5: 0.35s; XS: 0.2s and pipelined: 0.018082857131958s total
jnthn: it is what you asked before and it is I want to ask how to do this :) 15:22
C lvl or Parrot or Rakudo ?
jnthn Woodi: C level and Rakudo/NQP level are both interesting in general. 15:23
mls: done
Woodi any manual ?
jnthn mls: Does this fix the infinite recursion thing?
Woodi blogpost ?
dalek kudo/nom: bd2f8df | mls++ | / (2 files):
invoke_catchhandler: tweak call chain after the invoke call, so that the recursion_limit is set correctly

Also added myself to CREDITS ;)
kudo/nom: f4ee614 | jonathan++ | / (2 files):
Merge pull request #43 from mlschroe/newexcept

invoke_catchhandler: tweak call chain after the invoke call, so that the...
mls jnthn: yes 15:24
jnthn mls: Is there a guide to invoking the sub profiler? :)
jnthn just memorized the command by now... :)
Woodi --invokeSubProfiler ? :)
mls as perl6 doesn't support a "--profile" option yet, you need to do 'parrot -R subprof perl.pbc ...'
jnthn mls: Yes, like that. How hard would it be to add a --profile? 15:25
mls I think parrot supports switching runcores somehow, letme check the sources...
jnthn Woodi: It's basically the incantation mls++ just wrote out 15:26
Woodi ok
now how to compile to pbc ? :)
jnthn Woodi: It's already built 15:27
Woodi: Did you "make install" or are you running Rakudo from build directory?
Woodi installed to /opt/perl6
jnthn Woodi: OK...there should be a perl6.pbc installed in there somewhere :)
Woodi ok 15:28
mls hmm, I didn't find a way. I'll talk to the parrot guys. 15:29
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Woodi no perl.pbc in /opt/perl6/bin 15:37
some flag during configure is needed for that ? 15:38
jnthn Woodi: May be in /opt/perl6/lib or some such iirc
Woodi found 15:39
got PackFile_Header_validate: This Parrot cannot read bytecode files with version 12.0. 15:41
jnthn Is it the correct Parrot? 15:42
Woodi I removed Debian Star two day ago
should be
jnthn (the one in /opt/perl6/bin)?
Woodi hang and memory 350mb+, ok ? 15:45
maybe 10k loop iteration is not needed for trace ? 15:46
jnthn oddness, it normally executes only a little slower than normal for me. 15:47
That sounds....unusual.
mls it should only be 10% slower 15:48
jnthn yeah, that's what I've tended to observe
Woodi want 4.7Gb file ?
parrot.pprof.5457
mls pprof? 15:49
that's the wrong one
jnthn Woodi: Did you do -R subprof, or something else? :)
mls Do not use -R profile, but -R subprof
Woodi -R profile 15:50
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Woodi -R profiling - was in parrot manual :) 15:51
mls yes, that's the old profile. It writes a line for every executed op. 15:52
not really useful for a HLL like perl6
Woodi ok, doing subprof 15:53
it realy want to put result on screen, stderr
jnthn Woodi: 2> callgrind.foo 15:54
dalek kudo/nom: 04a1158 | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
Track failure modes
 15:55
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Woodi put that file somewhere ? 15:58
jnthn Woodi: It's viewable with kcachegrind 15:59
Woodi: If you want to take a look at it
Otherwise, you can put it somewhere and I can take a look later on :)
Woodi apt-get install kcachegrind eta: 3min 16:00
arnsholt Be warned: kcachegrind is awesome 16:01
You're gonna want it for all your profiling from now on =)
jnthn arnsholt: I know! I've spent some hours in that thing :)
arnsholt I've not even used it that much! =D 16:02
Woodi i'm on putty yet. ^c it ?
arnsholt But for my research (dang, it's weird to say that!) I'm working on some code in Common Lisp, and the profile output not being trivially inputtable to kcachegrind does annoy me a bit 16:03
Woodi eta 18s
ok, eta job in 30 mins, witt see that visualizations :) 16:05
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TimToady is home again, fwiw, which ain't much... 16:38
jnthn o/, TimToady :) 16:39
Hope you had a nice trip, wherever it was :)
TimToady ate some turkey
jnthn still has another month to wait until he gets turkey :) 16:40
Woodi subprof file is in lunski.pl/~sylwek/perl/ mainly Grammar.pm and Cursor.pir shows up 16:41
[Coke] jiggity jig.
TimToady on the negative side, been battling a shingles flareup on my tongue, and the parts of my brane connected to it, so am rather out of sorts still
jnthn Woodi: oh...hm
Woodi: I fear that the benchmark is being rather skewed by compilation time.
TimToady: Ouch. Doesn't sound like fun. :( Hope it clears up soon.
TimToady it's on the mend, but it just takes time 16:42
masak TimToady! \o/ 16:43
TimToady on the positive side, having my trigeminal nerve fried by herpes zoster means my migraines are relatively painless, but I still get all the other effects...
masak :/ 16:44
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TimToady and I have a job interview, sort of, this afternoon 16:44
takadonet TimToady: good luck! 16:45
TimToady is kinda looking around to see if now is a good time to switch to a different Perl 6 vendor :)
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TimToady or who will support at least one full-time Perl 6 dude :) 16:47
masak we're hiring :)
TimToady also doesn't want to move to Sweden :)
masak dang. well, worth a shot.
[Coke] TimToady: good luck. 16:48
TimToady there are several possibilities in Sili Convalley
partly it's just that my current company got acquired, and I have no sense of whether I'll have a place in the new scheme of things 16:49
Woodi jnthn: Str is heavy red, maybe just becouse I use string protocol... 16:52
TimToady sigh, only five days of backlogging to do...
jnthn TimToady: It was quietish here on some of them, as I remember it.
TimToady blames turkeys 16:53
masak decommutes 16:54
jnthn ponders how on earth SJ has ended up selling first class tickets for cheaper than standard class ones on a normally rather busy Friday evening train... 17:03
...sales optimization algorithms clearly do interesting things. 17:04
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cognominal_ When going to the Bruxelles peerl workshop with Thalys, first class was cheaper than second class. I suppose they don't want to waste food. 17:05
japhb TimToady, if you have enough working brane, I could really use a ruling on irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-11-25#i_4755358 and the continuation at irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-11-25#i_4756773 and irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-11-25#i_4757166 ... would you mind taking a look? 17:07
cognominal_ there was wifi too but not connected to the larger world. Better check that kind of detail if want to upgrade for wifi.
jnthn cognominal_: huh, there was wifi but only between people on the train? :)
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Woodi jnthn: maked one milion calls in 111s + 11s profilling. file available on net. looks chomp takes a lot of time 17:14
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jnthn Woodi: ooh 17:15
Woodi: file URL?
Woodi: oh, I see it 17:16
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TimToady japhb: my brane isn't talking to me this morning, at least not on that subject...maybe later today I can think about it 17:18
jnthn Woodi: yeah, that is a lot of time in chomp
japhb TimToady, roger that, thanks
jnthn Woodi: I improved it a bit before, but seems it needs some more.
TimToady and as masak said, it might need a community design if I can't come up with a Gordian sword
but I rather suspect I'll have an opinion after I think about it enough 17:19
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TimToady if anyone wants to do some thinking for me, they could consider what downsides there might be to putting Failure outside of Any 17:21
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PerlJam
.oO( Failure is not an Any!)
 17:24
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jnthn Possibly that using Mu to suppress junction auto-threading now also means you can get passed Failure. But if we consider that stuff outside of Any is meant to be a general place for special things, maybe having at lesat two of them will be better anyway. 17:25
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TimToady I think of the outside of Any as "concept" space, so this might be the right direction, but an off-kilter brane doesn't weigh things accurately 17:27
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jnthn I have an easier time thinking of upsides than downsides on this one. 17:27
One is performance...junctions are basically zero impact on the non-junction case because they're just a binding failover. 17:28
TimToady could get the same benefit from .foo.bar.baz not having to worry about dispatching Failure 17:29
jnthn That said, it means that my $x = foo(); really wants to keep meaning that $x has a type constraint of Mu (we've sometimes pondered that it should be Any) since it's good to be able to assign then test in many cases.
TimToady yes, Any is the default, not the constraint 17:30
jnthn my $x = foo(); if $x { ... } # guess we want this to end up OK, if foo() returned a failure
TimToady defaults make even more sense on arrays and hashes
jnthn TimToady: It is now; I've had trouble sensing whether we see that as 100% decided or not. :) I do prefer it with Mu the constraint, Any the default. Just flagging up that putting Failure outside of Any probably ties us more.
17:31 mkramer left
jnthn (ties us more to that decision) 17:32
TimToady I think I'm comfy with distinguishing constraint from default now, because of KeyHashes wanting to delete their default value, which might well be a value, not a type
jnthn aha :)
Yeah, that fits in well. 17:33
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TimToady well also have the postulated Each concept outside of Any 17:33
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jnthn dinner time...got plenty of $dayjob done, so should have some 6 tuits this evening :) 17:45
bbiab
dalek p: bf55068 | mls++ | src/ (2 files):
add experimental support for --profile and --profile-compile
 17:46
TimToady sorear: I am as yet undecided on whether STM can be mandated across all implementations without being too fiddly for some implementations to do efficiently 17:53
so I'm staying one remove from that, much like continuations
doubtless some wag will point out that continuations and STM are isomorphic... 17:54
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mkramer g, e 17:56
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dalek p/unirx: 1f5883b | diakopter++ | src/QRegex/P6Regex/ (2 files):
support ! inverted Unicode properties. Only supports the simple cases, no +/-/&/|/^/(/) combos yet.
 18:22
diakopter but it's enough for a thousand tests or so for rakudo
jnthn yay
diakopter++
wolverian nice work 18:23
diakopter heh, I just ported Pm's work from rakudo to nqp
moritz diakopter++ 18:24
jnthn ...and implemented the new syntax, etc :)
diakopter o_O I wonder how much of rakudo will end up being ported to nqp.
jnthn diakopter: Probably not much. This just felt like something that belonged with the other regex engine stuff.
diakopter hm, now how to merge this branch.
jnthn git checkout master 18:25
git merge unirx
diakopter augh. merge conflict
src/ops/nqp.ops 18:26
diakopter has no clue how to proceed.
as usual, I'm helpless
moritz diakopter: lemme check
diakopter: I think just both branches add ops 18:27
diakopter ergh, I should've pulled before I merged.
so, I see these ======= and >>>>>>> in the file 18:29
diakopter googles 18:30
moritz diakopter: if the file is changed in two branches in different ways, the merge adds those markers 18:31
and the different changes between <<<<<< and ====== the part from one branch
and the part from the other branch between ====== and >>>>> 18:32
and you just edit that whole seciton, make it look like it should, and then git add src/ops/nqp.op
s
git commit
diakopter: I've successfully resolved that conflict here locally, should I push it?
worr how much still needs to be done for rakudo?
I haven't really followed development since before nom 18:33
diakopter moritz: sure; then I get to figure out (I mean, ask :) how to reset my local checkout to your master once you push :)
moritz worr: that's hard to answer. There's still a whole lot to be done before it implements full perl 6, but much less before it is well usable 18:34
worr: perl6.org/compilers/features gives a short overview over what is implemented, and what not
dalek p: 1f5883b | diakopter++ | src/QRegex/P6Regex/ (2 files):
support ! inverted Unicode properties. Only supports the simple cases, no +/-/&/|/^/(/) combos yet.
 18:35
p: 3e87ffd | moritz++ | src/ (4 files):
Merge remote branch 'origin/unirx'

Conflicts: src/ops/nqp.ops
moritz diakopter: if you are on branch: git fetch; git reset --hard origin/master
18:36 tokuhirom left
diakopter moritz: thanks for all your help 18:37
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moritz diakopter: you're welcome 18:37
worr moritz: thanks! I'd love to get involved in development again :) 18:38
I've been away for far too long
lumi_ Is qx{} supposed to capture stderr?
moritz lumi_: don't think so. It's not specced that way, and perl 5 doesn't do it 18:39
worr is there a bug tracker? rt.perl.org seems to be kind of old
TimToady generally not, unless you've got a 2>&1 inside and a shell to do it
moritz worr: rt.perl.org tracks rakudo's bug. Other projects have other bug trackers
lumi_ moritz: Thought so. Then I think it's broken
TimToady but the fact that $*ERR is a dynamic var means we nearly have the necessary semantics for IO redirection within Perl 6 18:40
my $*ERR = $*OUT; qx{}; or some such
18:40 cognominal left
TimToady assuming we make fork/exec track that 18:41
which is kind of a big assumption
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diakopter moritz: I'm curious to see whether rakudo with latest nqp can pass roast/S05-mass/properties* 18:43
oh, hm
I still need to remove a bunch of "is" prefixes from those tests 18:44
from the test output I mean
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diakopter oh, found another problem with my previous patches to those tests 18:46
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TimToady lumi_: but the basic idea is that qx is for pulling in well-formed data, and interspersing error messages does not contribute to well-formedness 18:48
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dalek ast: 0b6c46d | diakopter++ | S05-mass/properties- (4 files):
remove "is" from test output
 18:48
TimToady we might contemplate a form of qx that can harvest out-of-band messages and make them available somehow 18:49
but dumping them to the terminal is a reasonable default, if there is a terminal...
moritz I'd like to propose a different approve
I'd rather have qx (as an operator) simple
rather have shell() and run() some :capture options 18:50
TimToady sure, I was using "qx" generically
sorear good * #perl6
moritz and we can have them return objects that hold all the important information 18:51
lumi_ How do I open a rakudobug for it?
moritz like .out, .err, .status
lumi_: email to [email@hidden.address]
18:51 cognominal_ left
colomon \o/ sorear! 18:51
sorear niecza: my class A::B { } # for jnthn
p6eval niecza v11-27-gdaa9117: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Pathed definitions require our scope at /tmp/UQ24fKCXvd line 1:␤------> my class A::B ⏏{ } # for jnthn␤␤␤Unhandled Exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 880 (die @ 2)…
jnthn sorear: Then how do we declare X::Base in the setting? 18:53
(I forbade it initially too, fwiw)
sorear colomon: (on chromatic and patents) I can sort of see where he's coming from, although I think it's a red herring and he's undermined his own argument for reasons I can explain if you want. OTOH I am planning a niecza/C.
18:54 thou left
colomon sorear: I'm curious to hear how you think he's undermined his own argument, if you don't mind. 18:54
sorear: niecza/C !?!!
sorear colomon: [Mandelbrot/gtk] I rather suspect (without seeing a profile) that the problem is the overhead of repeated marshalling calls. 18:56
moritz diakopter: S05-mass/properties-block.t passes now \o/
colomon sorear: I was hoping that when you get a chance, you could provide optimization suggestions for the core loops (in ExposeEvent and mandel) in github.com/colomon/mandelbrot/blob...delbrot.pl .... and you're ahead of me here. :)
18:57 wk left
colomon sorear: I did a bunch of timings with various changes to the code. I think mandel is still taking the most time at this point. (I've already done a bunch of optimizations to the Gtk calls to get to where it is today.) 18:58
sorear: anyway, no rush at all on that, just hoping for some advice, because I'd really love it to be 5-10x faster. :)
colomon is in the middle of his yearly billing session for $work 18:59
diakopter moritz: try the latest patches to the other properties tests
sorear jnthn: X::Base is a member of a package, so it only makes sense to be declared 'our'.
colomon: I'll have to help a bit later ... 19:00
moritz properties-scripts also passes
sorear colomon: you saw "Microsoft sues TomTom" right? if you actually read the link, you'll see that Microsoft has a bunch of random patents "dashboard-mounted computer" etc 19:01
colomon: I think it's a safe bet that both Parrot and Mono infringe a large number of Microsoft patents, since Microsoft has written several VMs and HALs over the years and has probably patented a lot of the territory 19:02
colomon: TomTom makes money, Parrot and Mono don't, which is probably why they picked TomTom
moritz and it also likely that both sue lots of patents by IBM, Google and any other big software patent holder 19:03
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moritz s/sue/infringe/ 19:03
because so many trivialities are patented
sorear colomon: now, if you compare Parrot and Mono, there's one difference that stands out - Microsoft has explicitly (albeit not as a binding contract) granted a usage license to all patents required for a third-party implementation of the CLR
diakopter sorear: I fervently agree with "I think it's a safe bet that both Parrot and Mono infringe a large number of Microsoft patents" 19:04
colomon sorear: oh. so you're saying that (at least in theory) Parrot is more vulnerable than Mono, not less?
sorear colomon: yes.
IANAL, of course.
colomon dang 19:05
diakopter sorear: have you thought about what GC scheme Niecza/C might use? 19:07
generational concurrent :) 19:08
sorear diakopter: I am a huge fan of generational garbage collectors with copying nursery eviction. I'll probably implement one of those first 19:09
Dunno about concurrent though. Majorly annoying locking issues there.
I say "implement" not "use" because I'll almost surely start with Boehm-Demers-Weiser 19:11
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colomon sorear++ 19:12
[Coke] .u ���
phenny U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER (�)
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sorear really likes thinking about GCs, but they're too time intensive to play with as much as ey'd like 19:14
any Windows users (jnthn, diakopter) available and willing to take a look at v12 for me? 19:16
diakopter moritz: if you bump the NQP_REVISION, you can greenify Unicode properties on the feature matrix
sure
19:17 sivoais left
sorear diakopter: feather.perl6.nl/~sorear/n12draft.zip is what will be the v12 binary release 19:17
diakopter: the last time you helped me, you ran into the problem that niecza chokes on CRLF
diakopter: I still haven't fixed that. But I want to know if it works, if you use _Unix_ line endings in your source code and CORE.setting 19:18
I'd rather have "works with major proviso" than "doesn't work"
dalek kudo/nom: 9d79fef | moritz++ | src/core/Exceptions.pm:
get rid of nested packages X packages in Exceptions.pm
kudo/nom: a8dfd47 | moritz++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION:
bump NQP revision to get Unicode propertiy fixes by diakopter++
[Coke] I have a windows box. what do you need?
sorear [Coke]: 1. unzip linked file 2. make sure lib\CORE.setting contains \n and not \r\n 3. run\Niecza.exe; say 2 + 2 19:19
[Coke] 1 and 3 work fine. 19:20
moritz phenny: tell jnthn that with moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/x-buf-as-str.patch setting compilation still fails with "The following packages were stubbed but not defined: X::Buf::AsStr" 19:21
phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when jnthn is around.
[Coke] if I gvim -b the file on windows, no extraneous ^Ms. 19:22
jnthn sorear: just tried it; it works
phenny jnthn: 19:21Z <moritz> tell jnthn that with moritz.faui2k3.org/tmp/x-buf-as-str.patch setting compilation still fails with "The following packages were stubbed but not defined: X::Buf::AsStr"
moritz jnthn: I haven't been able to golf that one to non-setting code (note that the 'package X { }) is now gone
sorear awesome
moritz )
sorear how about run\Niecza.exe -c -e 'say "Hello world"'; obj\MAIN.exe ? 19:23
sorear leaves for a bit 19:24
[Coke] nopaste.snit.ch/97024 --parsefail
jnthn sorear: Run.MAIN.exe works 19:25
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diakopter [Coke]: try this instead 19:25
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diakopter run\Niecza.exe -c -e "say ""Hello world""" 19:26
run\Niecza.exe -c -e "say 'Hello world'"
windows doesn't take single quotes as quoters
[Coke] first one gives "unsupported use of bare say"
second one works.
diakopter hm, maybe it's three " to make it work 19:27
jnthn diakopter: heh, I did that automatically without noticing I had :)
[Coke] diakopter: doh, didn't even think to check that, I assumed he was cut and pasting from something that was expected to work. ;)
dalek p/nci: 6e9d75d | jnthn++ | / (4 files):
Add CPointer REPR, which represents a raw pointer that we don't attempt to manage at all.
p/nci: a52b468 | jnthn++ | src/ops/nqp_dyncall.ops:
Implement CPointer handling in native caller.
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masak TimToady: the sword is Alexandrian, not Gordian. if they'd had the idea about the sword in Gordium, they wouldn't still have a knot. :P 19:33
TimToady it was a Gordian sword afterwards 19:34
regardless of whether Alexander took it away from there
19:35 hoelzro left
TimToady and the flying mugs now belong to Perl 6, even if they originally belonged to the hotel 19:36
masak ;) 19:44
dalek kudo/nci: 61db3e8 | jnthn++ | src/core/traits.pm:
Implement exporting of types.
 19:53
volaj/v2: 4561a4f | jnthn++ | lib/NativeCall.pm6:
Support opaque pointers in NativeCall.
 19:54
jnthn OK, only thing that new Zavolaj doesn't support that old one did is passing arrays. And the way it was done before was one of the most disgusting hacks I ever did... 19:55
colomon hack! hack! hack! 19:56
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colomon jnthn++ 19:56
jnthn colomon: I may wonder to the sofa and actually *design* it this time before I hack. ;)
colomon designed hack!
jnthn :) 19:57
diakopter talk about an armchair expert
er, sofa
er, nm
dalek p/nci: 8c94248 | jnthn++ | .gitignore:
Update .gitignore.
 20:00
masak also, it's a sofa you "wonder" to :P
not a regular sofa, then.
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diakopter pmichaud: ping 20:13
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dalek ast: feb17e7 | moritz++ | S05-mass/properties-general.t:
fix a thinko in S05-mass/properties-general.t; rakudo refudges
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dalek ast: b05364c | moritz++ | S05-mass/properties-general.t:
more thinkos
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tadzik 'evening 21:33
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jnthn o/ tadzik 21:55
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masak tadzik! \o/ 22:07
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[Coke] moritz: are working on adding those to t/spectest.data also? 22:18
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[Coke] *you 22:19
(if not, I'll get to them sometime tonight, probably) 22:20
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sorear returns 22:51
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masak 'night, #perl6 23:43
colomon \o 23:45
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