»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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noteventime Are there any reasons (apart from performance?) for using methods over multis? 00:43
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TimToady noteventime: well, in theory the multis can be faster than the methods, since the candidate list can be statically determined, and possibly trimmed down to one if the types are knowable 01:22
really, you should just ask yourself, "Is this something the object should be in charge of, or is it something in the semantic space between objects?" 01:23
if you find yourself contorting symmetric semtantics into asymmetric calls for the sake of OO, it's a code smell 01:25
1.add(2) is not very perly
noteventime Timbus: I'm generally not very fond of object oriented programming, preferring algebraic data types and closures. Multis seem like a reasonable compromise kind of thing. Also I never understood the point with single dispatch OO in a language which doesn't do static type checking (as far as I can see you might just as well store closures in a record type). 01:31
TimToady: sorry, I misstabed 01:32
(I thought erc didn't do that :/)
I really quite like what Perl 6 is doing in the whole OO department though, reminds me of CLOS (though I don't know enough about any of them to know if that's just a superficial similarity due to both supporting multiple dispatch). 01:35
sorear in practice method calls will probably be faster than multis 01:42
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TimToady noteventime: it's not just a superficial resemblance; both languages are fundamentally FP underneath, and methods are just closures that some dispatcher has found; multis are just closures that a different dispatcher has found 01:52
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noteventime Timbus: Interesting, are there some kind of formal semantics for reasoning about the object system? 01:56
TimToady* (I'm really sorry, I don't know what's up with ERC, it has never behaved like this before) 02:00
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[Coke] is sad that the haskell daemon hasn't appeared to answer my question! 02:10
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noteventime Haskell daemon? 02:14
TimToady not really, but there is sufficient introspection of the metaobjects that such could probably be defined as a sublanguage
[Coke] noteventime: our resident Haskell expert who might be able to help me patch Pugs.
TimToady decommuting & 02:15
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noteventime [Coke]: Unless it's Pugs specific you could always try the excellent #haskell :) 02:18
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sorear oh, is #haskell excellent again? 02:23
I was the most active human in 2007 but it started sucking and I left 02:24
noteventime sorear: Well, I haven't been very active lately, but I remember it as being really great 02:25
sorear: In what way did it start sucking? I'm pretty sure I haven't been seeing a lot of trolling/flaming or anything like that
[Coke] oh, maybe sorear can answer my question. ; 02:27
;)
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sorear noteventime: a culture appeared where it was unacceptable to ever talk negatively about Haskell 02:36
it used to be I could talk honestly about Haskell's strengths and weaknesses
noteventime sorear: You might have a point there actually 02:38
[Coke] good thing that happened, or you'd be working on pugs instead of niecza. ;)
noteventime Not that I'm trying to defend it or anything, but doesn't that tend to happen to almost all larger tech communities 02:39
sorear noteventime: the motto of Haskell used to be "Avoid success at all costs"
noteventime Some kind of over defensiveness against trolls
Hopefully this doens't come out as offensive, but why would one want target CLR any longer? Migrating/interoperating with legacy code? 02:43
geekosaur noteventime, library availability
noteventime Wouldn't the JVM be a better target for that?
I guess it might just be a matter of taste, but I can't remember seeing a lot of CLR things 02:44
It might just be that I don't mingle in the areas that do though
geekosaur there's enough stuff on CLR, easily
I'm not real familiar with the CLR bytecode but I would not be surprised if it were easier to design for; JVM bytecode is very Java-centric and often painful for languages tht don't work like Java does 02:45
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geekosaur CLR has had *some* thought put into not being really tightly bound to C# 02:45
noteventime That might be true too 02:46
Though hasn't that changed with things like Clojure?
geekosaur has worked a little with jvm bytecode. it really does have a tight relationship with javathink
clojure does a lot of working around it
scala chose to work with it instead by staying fairly close to java
noteventime I remember issues with it lacking tail recursion optimisation
sorear noteventime: CLR startup is a lot faster/uses way less memory than JVM (comparing mono to HotSpot) 02:47
noteventime Though I never quite figured out why tail recursion couldn't be optimised in the frontend
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geekosaur sometimes it can 02:47
sorear noteventime: no-one has ever been sued for using the CLR; people have been sued for picking Java
noteventime: Indirect tail calls
return $foo();
the #1 reason I don't use Java is that HotSpot is unusably slow on my machine 02:48
noteventime Haha, like my mother once told me "Ahh Java, it's that thing where you get a cup of coffee down by the clock and then everything locks up" :) 02:50
sorear I've looked into the possibility of porting niecza to the JVM; the biggest yucky spot seems to be that the JVM is hostile to functional programming 02:52
if you want to be able to refer to 10,000 first class functions in the JVM, you need 10,000 classes, 10,000 .class files on disk...
[Coke] pugs: say Int 02:53
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«Int␤»
noteventime At the risk of sounding really stupid, how much of an issue is that for perl? It is "just" the closures, or are there deeper reasons?
[Coke] anyone know where that's defined?
sorear noteventime: every function in a perl program can potentially be the target of &foo
noteventime sorear: Sure, but you already treat functions as objects, don't you? 02:54
Or is that just syntactic sugar?
sorear noteventime: treating functions as objects
noteventime: treating functions as P6-objects requires compiling each one to a JVM-class 02:55
any function object can be called!
noteventime: iow, I don't understand your question. 02:56
geekosaur ^^ that is what I meant by javathink embedded in the bytecode
noteventime sorear: I mean, on the perl side, doesn't Perl 6 do something like Ruby's everything-is-an-object?
geekosaur it's also why functional languages for the jvm tend to come with hugeous runtime jars
sorear noteventime: that's not relevant at all
noteventime Sorry if I'm being thick, 4 in the morning and I just started reading a little about perl 6 today
sorear noteventime: think about it 02:57
noteventime: if I have an object that wraps a function, how is the object supposed to hold a reference to the function?
and please don't say "java.lang.reflect.Method"
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noteventime I don't know, I'm not familiar with Java runtime or idioms, it just seemed that the JVM should be able to optimise it. Doens't it do something like anonymous classes to get something similar to closures? 02:58
geekosaur last I checked all anonymous classes were ugly hacks underneath 02:59
sorear noteventime: sort of, but they're not really anonymous
noteventime Only time I had to do in Java was in a really horrible intro to programming course at university
sorear noteventime: they get names like Foo$30, and are saved in Foo$30.class
noteventime Ok, that explains it
sorear noteventime: s/closures/all first-clas functions/
noteventime Right 03:00
I remember, gave me lots of headache
sorear on the internet people misuse the word "closure" far more often than they use it correctly
people just shouldn't use it at all :|
noteventime I thought you could do something like a function pointer at least
sorear nope!
on the CLR you can. 03:01
noteventime You can't do anything like a function pointer even in java bytecode?
sorear No.
noteventime I see, that makes things a lot more clear :)
I thought the issue was just related to closures 03:02
Each time I hear something new about java it surprises me with how horrible it is 03:03
I kinda dislike beating on the language like that, but I can't say anything positive about it 03:05
sorear java is a definite improvement on the things that came before it, for the purposes for which it was developed
noteventime sorear: Before it? As in C++ or do you mean COBOL? 03:06
Because I'd probably rather use C++ than Java to be honest
sorear I do mostly mean C++
that's what the second part of my sentence was for
C++ is not very useful for a locked-down browser or smartphone runtime 03:07
noteventime Right, that's true
Sounds like you'd like better operating system security though
sorear Defense in depth 03:08
OS-level security is not a panacea
noteventime Neither is Java though ;)
sorear it's slow, unportable, and often doesn't work at all
you combine it with runtime security to achieve somehting even better 03:09
noteventime Possibly, I guess I couln't really say, I have absolutely no experience with such environments 03:10
sorear: Wouldn't something like FreeBSDs jails work though? 03:11
Or would that be too slow?
sorear noteventime: nothing that allows user code to run on the bare CPU is ever going to be trustworthy
noteventime (I have no idea about its details, just that it's something like a chroot which includes file handles, processes e.t.c.) 03:12
sorear every few years some CPU bug is discovered that allows unprivileged code to break the sandbox
or at least crash the processor
noteventime So the reasoning is that a CPU isn't patchable? 03:13
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noteventime Otherwise I don't see why a VM should be less prone to such issues 03:14
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sorear noteventime: the adversary will act before you have a chance to patch your system. 03:15
noteventime sorear: Why couldn't that be true for a virtual machine too though? 03:16
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noteventime It still has to issue syscalls of some kind somewhere 03:16
sorear Non sequitur 03:17
o/ colomon 03:18
noteventime sorear: What I mean is, there could just as well be a bug in the virtual machine that allowed some kind of arbitrary code execution
colomon o/ ... but he's off at a concert and his wife stole his computer! :)
sorear noteventime: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_in_depth 03:19
noteventime Maybe I'm just missing the particular kind of issues you could run into. If everything runs in a VM it seems to me an issue in the VM would be as critical as an issue on the CPU would be when everything ran on bare CPU. Unless you use multiple VMs to separate the processes, in which case it seems to be the same thing as having something like jails. 03:21
sorear: I'll think about it in the morning, perhaps I'm just too tired :) thanks for the info
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Guest54925 Hello 03:23
sorear you use a secured VM in a separate processor inside a chroot on a decent OS with a good processor
Guest54925 Can someone assist me with a PERL loop?
sorear five dubious fences add up to a decent barrier
Guest54925: it's not PERL, it's Perl 03:24
and you want #perl-help
Guest54925 Thanks
sorear this is the channel for the Perl 6 redesign
Guest54925 How can I find #perl-help? 03:25
timotimo why not? doesn't Perl have a Print Eval Read Loop?
sorear Guest54925: google it. when you find the right server, read the documentation for your IRC client to find out how to join.
noteventime timotimo: Not REPL loop :) (I read REPL at first too) 03:26
sorear it's probably either on MAGnet or Freenode
noteventime opps
Sorry, I missed the joke, I must real be too tired
sorear I don't know which, and I have a knee-jerk reaction to minimally help anyone who says PERL
it's like a reverse code word 03:27
noteventime sorear: Like lisp people dislike people who say LISP :)
sorear LISP actually means something
noteventime or at least meant something
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sorear if you say LISP, it means you're using one of the broken dialects from the 50s that don't handle funargs correctly, like MACLISP or elisp 03:27
noteventime Though I doubt that's (with the possible exception of elisp) what the people saying LISP intend 03:29
sorear: Maybe saying PERL means you really want PEARL?
shachaf sorear: I've generally understood that "LISP" referred to any dialect, and "Lisp" refers to Common Lisp. 03:30
timotimo i thought lisp was "list processor", so shouldn't it be LisP? 03:32
noteventime I wonder if there ever was a word processor called WORP
timotimo hah, that gives way to lots of star trek references and puns 03:33
"warp 6!" - "whoa, microsoft hasn't even released worp 4 yet!"
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japhb When fixing things in the spec, is the date/version stamp in the header supposed to be updated on all changes, or just the non-typo ones? 05:32
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dalek ecs: 186ae88 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | S32-setting-library/Exception.pod:
Fix typo
 05:34
ecs: bb4c5e5 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | S02-bits.pod:
Fix double thinko; remove trailing whitespace in same lines
ecs: f8d2de3 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | S32-setting-library/Basics.pod:
Remove extra whitespace introduced by automated change
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dalek ecs: 86b688a | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | S32-setting-library/Containers.pod:
Clarify wording in splice() description
 05:37
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TimToady new entry: rosettacode.org/wiki/Factors_of_a_M...ber#Perl_6 05:48
japhb: there's no fixed boundary, whatever you think is substantial 05:49
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TimToady incidentally, that RC entry breaks rakudo with: splice() not implemented in class 'Mu' 05:53
sorear afk power outage, be back tomorrow... 05:58
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Timbus rakudo: my @a := 1,2, * + @a[0] ... *; say @a[4]; 06:07
p6eval rakudo 715aed: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Nil in numeric context␤use of uninitialized value of type Nil in numeric context␤use of uninitialized value of type Nil in numeric context␤splice() not implemented in class 'Mu'␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:4515␤ in …
Timbus niecza: my @a := 1,2, * + @a[0] ... *; say @a[4]; 06:10
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«5␤»
Timbus well then. take that, haskell.
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moritz \o 06:32
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geekosaur hmf. mono from macports still can't use mono-sgen with niecza 07:38
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japhb TimToady, Roger that, thanks. 07:55
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dalek kudo/nom: 06cf161 | moritz++ | src/core/Complex.pm:
Implement constant i for complex numbers

constant i = 1i; had bootstrappy problems last I tried, but now we can simply write Complex.new(0, 1) on the RHS. jnthn++		 10:34
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tadzik gist.github.com/1965528 enum exportation bug 10:44
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JimmyZ_ nom: say pi; pi.WHAT 10:47
p6eval nom 715aed: OUTPUT«3.14159265␤»
JimmyZ_ nom: say pi; say pi.WHAT 10:48
p6eval nom 715aed: OUTPUT«3.14159265␤Num()␤»
JimmyZ_ nom: constant pi = 3.1415926535897832; say pi; say pi.WHAT;
p6eval nom 715aed: OUTPUT«3.14159265358978␤Rat()␤»
JimmyZ_ nom: constant pi = 3.14159265; say pi; say pi.WHAT;
p6eval nom 715aed: OUTPUT«3.14159265␤Rat()␤»
JimmyZ_ niecza: say pi; say pi.WHAT 10:52
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«3.1415926535897931␤Num()␤»
JimmyZ_ niecza: constant pi = 3.1415926535897831; say pi; say pi.WHAT;
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«3.1415926535897833␤Rat()␤»
jnthn afty o/ 10:59
tadzik: Looks like it's export the enum itself, but not the individual symbols.
tadzik: RT it (got a few things to do before I get Perl 6 tuits today), but I should be able to fix it fairly easily. 11:00
JimmyZ_ afternoon 11:01
tadzik cool 11:02
now that I think about Perl 6 module infrastructure compared to CPAN, it's a bit like The Pirate Bay with magnet links compared to TPB serving .torrent files 11:05
CPAN has lots of .tar.* archives, we have lots of URLs to META.info files, which contain everything you need to know to obtain and install a module 11:06
I like how accidental evolution leads to such things
jnthn :) 11:08
jnthn has to write his talk today also :) 11:09
Or at least start on it.
tadzik yeah
I just started thinking "what the hell am I going to talk about for 20 minutes" ;)
jnthn Just take like 20 rage faces and talk about an aspect of the module ecosystem that reflects each one. :) 11:10
jnthn sketched his out last night and thinks he'll fill his 40 minutes quite easily
arnsholt I have a trollface on slide two of my lecture for monday =) 11:18
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tadzik :) 11:21
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moritz perl6: constant x = 4; say x x x 13:31
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "="␤ expecting ":" or "("␤ at /tmp/MaoEZDJM7g line 1, column 12␤»
..rakudo 06cf16, niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«4444␤»
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JimmyZ_ perl6: constant x = 4; say x*x 13:32
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "="␤ expecting ":" or "("␤ at /tmp/hxFj01BllG line 1, column 12␤»
..rakudo 06cf16, niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«16␤»
JimmyZ_ perl6: constant x = 4; say xxx
p6eval rakudo 06cf16: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&xxx' called (line 1)␤»
..niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'xxx' used at line 1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1362 (die @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 1147 (P6.comp_unit @ 33) ␤ at /home/…
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "="␤ expecting ":" or "("␤ at /tmp/lSV50o2OA5 line 1, column 12␤»
dalek ast: 9f76350 | moritz++ | S16-io/say-and-ref.t:
RT #80186, IO.say
 13:33
JimmyZ_ nom: constant * = 4; say*x* 13:34
p6eval nom 06cf16: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Method 'sorry' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6::Grammar'␤»
JimmyZ_ new bug! 13:35
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jnthn That looks...familiar. 13:35
moritz: ^^ 13:36
moritz: Is this an error reporting bug like the one fixed recently?
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moritz jnthn: might be. I'll investigate 13:37
though I really think it's just a mistyped s/panic/soory/ 13:38
jnthn: yep. And you did it :-) 13:40
- || <.panic: "Missing initializer on constant declaration">
+ || <.sorry: "Missing initializer on constant declaration">
you probably took that from STD or so
anyway, I'll fix
masak good afternoon, #perl6 13:42
jnthn moritz: d'oh 13:43
sorry!
o/ masak
moritz :-)
std: constant * = 3
p6eval std 137d5f5: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing initializer on constant declaration at /tmp/TrCHxNq6Ic line 1:␤------> constant ⏏* = 3␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix = instead at /tmp/TrCHxNq6Ic line 1:␤------> constant * ⏏…
moritz it seems to parse it as constant () * = 3 13:44
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moritz why the heck to we parse anonymous constant declarations? What's the point? 13:44
after the constant, rakudo expects [ <identifier> | <variable> | <?> ] 13:45
jnthn std: my $x = constant = 42
p6eval std 137d5f5: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 110m␤»
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jnthn nom: my $x = constant = 42; say $x 13:45
p6eval nom 06cf16: OUTPUT«42␤»
jnthn I guess it's a way to force pre-computation of some value
moritz but that doesn't make $x a constant, right?
jnthn No but if it was an expression on the RHS of the = it'd force its evaluation at BEGIN time
moritz wouldn't BEGIN do the same?
jnthn But my $x = BEGIN 1 + 2; is perhaps clearer 13:46
Yeah
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moritz I'd rather have 'constant' without a variable or identifier give a better error message 13:46
but I guess it's TimToady++'s call here
jnthn *nod* 13:48
moritz I have to admit it's cute, but it's also obscure 13:50
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dalek kudo/nom: 4bacfdc | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.pm:
throw more X::Syntax::Missing errors.

Also fixes error reporting from constant declarators		 13:51
jnthn \o/
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sisar those who are gonna give a talk on Monday, will it be recorded and put up online ? 13:52
moritz if you mean at GPW, I don't think so 13:53
jnthn Mine is on Tue :)
I'll upload the slides
moritz same for those :-)
sisar i can live with slides...
moritz is working on his slides right now 13:54
but they are in German, mostly
sisar jnthn: what's your talk about ?
moritz: dang
dalek ast: 157d7b7 | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
more tests for "constant" parse errors
moritz sisar: but you can read the example code anyway, the identifers are all English :-) 13:56
jnthn sisar: Meta-programming
Introspection, runtime type creation, custom meta-classes, etc.
moritz has about 25 slides, and a writer's block. Need 40. 13:57
sisar moritz: what are you talking about ?
moritz sisar: Perl 6 features and which compilers implements them today 13:59
so the least advanced of all these talks 14:00
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moritz nom: constant x = 'foo'; sub f(Int) { }; f x 14:00
p6eval nom 06cf16: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter ''; expected Int but got Str instead␤ in sub f at /tmp/PvjNAmMsAK:1␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/PvjNAmMsAK:1␤␤»
moritz jnthn: it's a bit sad that this isn't caught at CHECK time 14:01
jnthn Hm
Wonder why it ain't...
moritz sisar: fwiw conferences.yapceurope.org/gpw2012/...2012-03-06 has the list of Perl 6 talks 14:05
jnthn Wow, one room on Tuesday is pretty much Perl 6 room :d 14:07
sisar moritz: now i can stop bothering you. thanks.
moritz jnthn: yes :-)
jnthn: I would have prefered to do the talks before the hackathon, but that wasn't quite possible 14:08
(for two reasons: 1) so that people can first learn what it's all about, then join us hacking and 2) that masak++ doesn't waste the high-bandwith time with making slides :-)
... or other people besides masak. Did I mention that I'm not done either? :-) 14:09
jnthn Me either but I have at least started :)
Got sketched out all the stuff I want to do, so now it's just writing slides and code. 14:10
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masak moritz: you know me too well. 14:14
fwiw, I'm preparing the talk now.
moritz well, don't we all pattern-match? 14:15
:-)
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dalek kudo/nom: 8b5ee17 | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Annotate lookups of stuff with term:name that are known at compile time with the statically known type. Gets us some better static analysis, including with constants, as pointed out by moritz++.
 14:19
moritz niecza: say pi.WHAT 14:20
jnthn > constant x = 'foo'; sub f(Int) { }; f x
CHECK FAILED:
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Num()␤»
jnthn Calling 'f' will never work with argument types (Str) (line 1) Expected: :(Int )
moritz \o/ 14:21
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jnthn wonders if moritz is adding a slide on compile time analysis :) 14:27
moritz jnthn: I have one that shows a dispatch failure detected at CHECK time
and also a bit role composition stuff shown at compile time 14:28
jnthn Nice 14:29
moritz github.com/moritz/perltalk/blob/ma....talk#L134
jnthn Entwickler: for Rakudo - probably tadzik++ should be on it too :) 14:31
moritz oh right :-) 14:32
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tadzik hm? 14:49
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moritz tadzik: jnthn++ just said I should mention you as a rakudo dev. He's right, of course :-) 14:50
tadzik oh :)
masak tadzik++ 14:51
tadzik oh, while we're at it, yes, I'm preparing my talk too ;) 14:53
moritz didn't want to start a witch hunt with his comment :-) 14:54
anybody got a cute example of list comprehension? 14:55
masak ooh, Form.pm could be a nice GSoC project. 14:56
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jnthn woulda expected one on Rosettacode, but the features page doesn't link to such an example 14:57
And the spec example is boring and better done with sequences. 14:58
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masak moritz: my @perfect_squares = ($_ if $_ == [+] divisors $_ for 1 .. 100); 14:59
er, @perfect_numbers, sorry. 15:02
@primes is perhaps a more well-known example. my @primes = ($_ if 1 == divisors $_ for 1 .. 100); 15:03
basically, the use cases that make sense for list comprehensions rather than pure sequences are the ones where a predicate is involved. 15:05
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mikemol jnthn: Believe me, I wish there were a good task on RC for list comprehensions; it's embarassing to admit I don't know what people are talking about there; I never touched Lisp. 15:46
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moritz mikemol: "list comprehension" just means that a loop returns a list, and you use that return value 15:58
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masak Wikipedia has some good examples and explanations: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_comprehension 16:05
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masak list comprehensions have their roots in set builder notation. 16:05
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TimToady the usual syntax has a couple of problems from a p6 perspective 16:05
it uses symbols before their declaration
and it puts the conditional on the wrong side of the loop from a nesting perspective 16:06
though one could fake that with a proper list infix that did a grep 16:07
but the big one is declaring loop vars after use
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dalek p: 764faf9 | jnthn++ | src/HLL/World.pm:
Now, if we ask for a reference to an object in SC, we can just add it, since we can serialize whatever.
 16:16
kudo/nom: efad32e | jnthn++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/BOOTSTRAP.pm:
Make it a bit easier to create Attribute meta-object instances.
TimToady never considered that constant could be anonymous; probably a copy-pasto from enum rule 16:23
masak +1 on disallowing anon constant 16:24
TimToady already working on it 16:25
masak the idiom looks too much like = () = to me
TimToady++
jnthn Heh, I just assumed it was for consistency and implemented it :) 16:26
masak jnthn++
it would be very consistent, of course. 16:27
but probably the kind that is a hobgoblin.
jnthn Mmmmm....Hobgoblin! :D 16:28
masak "The beer of the little mind" :P 16:29
dalek d: 292f669 | larry++ | STD.pm6:
disallow anonymous constant declarations
 16:30
masak nom: $*IN; say "alive" 16:34
p6eval nom efad32: OUTPUT«alive␤»
masak nom: $*ARGS; say "alive" 16:35
p6eval nom efad32: OUTPUT«alive␤»
TimToady std: $*MASAK; say "ok 00:01 110m" 16:36
masak is there a &slurp that should default to reading from the Perl 6 equivalent of <ARGV> ?
p6eval std 137d5f5: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 109m␤»
flussence are $?constants still a thing? 16:37
masak I want it to read from $*IN, or from a file if one was provided.
flussence: sure.
flussence was getting slightly confused by all this new sigil-less stuff 16:38
TimToady perl6: say $*ARGFILES.slurp
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** Unsafe function 'slurp' called under safe mode␤ at /tmp/3DgYqFqstR line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
..rakudo efad32: OUTPUT«Method 'slurp' not found for invocant of class 'ArgFiles'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/wmiNFxrY0O:1␤␤»
..niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method slurp in class ArgFiles␤ at /tmp/9D_a0CwwSj line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3838 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3839 (module-CORE @ 65) ␤ at /h…
TimToady perl6: say $*ARGFILES.lines 16:39
p6eval rakudo efad32: OUTPUT«Land der Berge, Land am Strome, Land der Äcker, Land der Dome, Land der Hämmer, zukunftsreich! Heimat bist du großer Söhne, Volk, begnadet für das Schöne, vielgerühmtes Österreich, vielgerühmtes Österreich! Heiß umfehdet, wild umstritten liegst dem Erdteil du inmi…
..niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Land der Berge, Land am Strome, Land der Äcker, Land der Dome, Land der Hämmer, zukunftsreich! Heimat bist du großer Söhne, Volk, begnadet für das Schöne, vielgerühmtes Österreich, vielgerühmtes Österreich! Heiß umfehdet, wild umstritten liegst dem Erdteil…
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Scalar: "&lines"␤ at /tmp/fOvP8tG7S4 line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
TimToady looks like ArgFiles needs to be taugh about delegating to IO or some such
*taught
btw, the equivalent in P5 only slurps one file at a time, iirc 16:40
masak moritz: new backtraces are excellent.
moritz++
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masak moritz: do you think we should also hide MAIN_HELPER? I do. 16:40
jnthn Sounds reasonable 16:41
masak: Should just be annotating it with "is hidden-from-backtrace" or some such 16:42
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tadzik masak: do you recall if anyone ever tried to implement what's in S22? 16:54
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masak tadzik: I think not. 16:55
I remember when that one was written, but it probably remained a gleam in the authors' eyes.
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masak I'd say it has "borrow what could work, ignore the rest" status. 16:55
tadzik I have a feeling that no one ever paid attention to it when implementing ecosystem as we have now 16:56
as in: evolution, not intelligent design
masak nothing wrong with design of the kind you refer to. 17:00
tadzik of course
masak but it has to have its roots in need, not want.
if the distinction makes sense :)
there's something of a scratch-your-own-itch and eat-your-own-dogfood there that can't be ignored. 17:01
cognominal reading the commit log, /me sees "attribute meta object instance". /me is not sure to understand what it is 17:02
I suppose that attributes are seen as object and they have their palace in the metaoo system 17:03
indeed I see an Attribute.HOW 17:04
masak cognominal: attributes have properties that you might want to modify in your OO system. therefore, they have their own HOW.
cognominal: in Moose, they're even more important since Moose rests so heavily on attributes and so lightly on methods.
jnthn cognominal: It's just an attribute that represents at attribute 17:06
cognominal I can guess that is stuff like ownProperty in js, which defines if an attribute belongs to the current object or is inherited.
jnthn cognominal: Most declarative things in Perl 6 lead to compile-time creation of some kind of object that describes what it is and how it works.
masak TimToady: what's your take on the capture-inside-of-regex-interpolation thing I found the other day? <{ '(.) $0' }> 17:07
cognominal I got the general idea, I don't have grasped all the details.
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TimToady masak: that runs as a subrule, so $0 is local to the <{ }> 17:07
jnthn cognominal: Well, maybe I should give my meta-programming talk I'm working on at the moment in France some time this year then :)
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cognominal you bet. 17:08
Anyway if you don't come. I will study it thoroughly to present it but that would be so much better if you do that in person. 17:09
TimToady perl6: say 'fooo' ~~ /<{ '(.) $0' }> $0/
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value in string context␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1222 (warn @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 230 (Mu.Str @ 10) ␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/DYY8o1sGD9 line 1 (ANON @ 9) ␤ …
..rakudo efad32: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤ unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6.2.13.20111008/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤ eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HAND…
jnthn cognominal: Are the dates announced yet? 17:10
masak TimToady: oh, ok.
nom: grammar G { regex TOP { <.panic "OH NOES"> }; method panic($m) {} }; G.parse("")
p6eval nom efad32: OUTPUT«Unmarshallable foreign language value passed for parameter '$m'␤ in method panic at /tmp/aiw2289Jtt:1␤ in regex TOP at /tmp/aiw2289Jtt:1␤ in method parse at src/gen/CORE.setting:8175␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/aiw2289Jtt:1␤␤»
masak jnthn: ^^^
TimToady perl6: say 'fooo' ~~ /$<x> = <{ '(.) $0' }> $<x>[0]/; # maybe this works
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Apparent subscript will be treated as regex at /tmp/avehYCl3bE line 1:␤------> ay 'fooo' ~~ /$<x> = <{ '(.) $0' }> $<x>⏏[0]/; # maybe this works␤␤Match()␤»
..rakudo efad32: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤ unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6.2.13.20111008/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤ eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HAND…
cognominal journeesperl.fr/fpw2012/ 17:11
jnthn: journeesperl.fr/fpw2012/newtalk
:)
TimToady perl6: say 'fooo' ~~ /$<x> = <{ '(.) $0' }> $(<x>[0])/; # maybe this works
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
..rakudo efad32: OUTPUT«Method 'x' not found for invocant of class 'Cursor'␤ in <anon> at /tmp/RLSn5XbrOk:1␤ in regex <anon> at /tmp/RLSn5XbrOk:1␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/CORE.setting:8188␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/RLSn5XbrOk:1␤␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤ unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6.2.13.20111008/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤ eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HAND…
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masak jnthn: yes, please do. I haven't even seen your talk, and I'm already looking forward to seeing it a second time :P 17:12
jnthn I love how cognominal links me to the submit talk page rather than the homepage of the FPW site :P
tadzik :)
TimToady perl6: say 'foooo' ~~ /$<x> = <{ '(.) $0' }> $<x>/;
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«#<match from(1) to(5) text(oooo) pos([].list) named({"x" => #<match from(1) to(3) text(oo) pos([#<match from(1) to(2) text(o) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>].list) named({}.hash)>}.hash)>␤» 17:13
..rakudo efad32: OUTPUT«=> <oooo>␤ x => <oo>␤ 0 => <o>␤␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«Error eval perl5: "if (!$INC{'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'}) {␤ unshift @INC, '/home/p6eval/.cabal/share/Pugs-6.2.13.20111008/blib6/pugs/perl5/lib';␤ eval q[require 'Pugs/Runtime/Match/HsBridge.pm'] or die $@;␤}␤'Pugs::Runtime::Match::HsBridge'␤"␤*** '<HAND…
masak jnthn: why is the thing Unmarshallable above?
jnthn: (it's some ways up, between TimToady's p6eval spammings) :)
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jnthn masak: yeah, I missed it :P 17:14
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jnthn masak: I'm...not sure. Is that not missing a colon? 17:14
moritz missed it too
jnthn nom: grammar G { regex TOP { <.panic: "OH NOES"> }; method panic($m) {} }; G.parse("") 17:15
p6eval nom efad32: OUTPUT«Cannot look up attributes in a type object␤ in regex TOP at /tmp/y3W_qodcCF:1␤ in method parse at src/gen/CORE.setting:8175␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/y3W_qodcCF:1␤␤»
jnthn nom: grammar G { regex TOP { <.panic: "OH NOES"> }; method panic($m) { die "painfully" } }; G.parse("")
p6eval nom efad32: OUTPUT«painfully␤ in method panic at /tmp/WB4nBiLzf1:1␤ in regex TOP at /tmp/WB4nBiLzf1:1␤ in method parse at src/gen/CORE.setting:8175␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/WB4nBiLzf1:1␤␤»
masak jnthn++ 17:16
jnthn masak: It's because you used the syntax that makes <begin blah blah> work
masak oh.
jnthn masak: That compiles blah blah as a regex
masak: And then you were passing a Parrot Sub off to panic.
masak oops.
Unmarshellable. 17:17
jnthn :P
moritz Un-marshmellow-ish
jnthn Derivational morphology. I uses it.
cognominal jnthn, When I talk to people, I have a lot of trouble to explain the ultimated goal of the rakudo project which is to eventually compile any dynamic languages and make them interact. People have no idea of what is involved. They are already unaware of the system that makes possible to (dynamically) link .o files. They don't realize that the same thing for dynamic languages are more complicated by two orders of magnitude or so 17:18
. And when they suddenly realize the scope, they think that we (well I certainly mean the non lurker unlike me) will not be able to pull it.
moritz huh
cognominal *ultimate
jnthn Huh.
moritz rakudo's goal is to compiler Perl 6
jnthn The goal of Rakudo is to be an awesome Perl 6 compiler.
You're thinking of Parrot.
moritz and maybe some parts of p5, to the way that the specs require it
TimToady jnthn: You just need more hemidemisemiaffixishnesslessnessless.
er, *ness 17:19
cognominal if it was only so you would not bother with all this meta stuff.
masak not so.
all this meta stuff is cool even without the language interop.
moritz and not only cool, but necessary
jnthn Right.
cognominal and once this stuff is done, the goal, assumed or not, will eventually follow thru.
jnthn It's the way we implement large chunks of Perl 6 in a decent way, a way to make the language extensible, etc. 17:20
Yes, it's true, representation poly and so forth make interop easier to implement.
TimToady but putting that goal first leads to...parroty things...
jnthn But it's not the only goal.
And was far from the primary one. 17:21
For 6model at least.
dalek kudo/nom: b8a20ce | moritz++ | src/core/Main.pm:
hide MAIN_HELPER from bactraces. masak++
kudo/nom: 141cd63 | moritz++ | src/core/Num.pm:
steal more precises definitions of pi and e from niecza++
moritz efad32ee431c12145ba2aa99c4de2a4673135a73 looks like talk-driven design. jnthn++ :-) 17:22
jnthn ooh, strasbourg. I've never been there :)
TimToady parrot's model of interop development was a bit on the order of Ready! Fire! Aim!
you can't really do interop without a good metamodel 17:23
masak nom: grammar G { regex TOP { (foo) <.panic: "!$0!"> }; method panic($m) { die $m } }; G.parse("foo")
p6eval nom efad32: OUTPUT«!!␤ in method panic at /tmp/SAKd6FG6zc:1␤ in regex TOP at /tmp/SAKd6FG6zc:1␤ in method parse at src/gen/CORE.setting:8175␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/SAKd6FG6zc:1␤␤»
masak why doesn't this output '!foo!'? 17:24
jnthn hm
moritz because of impedance mismatch
jnthn
.oO( mis-Match )
masak moritz: those are words. what do you mean by them?
also, is there a workaround? :) 17:25
moritz yes, a block
jnthn nom: grammar G { regex TOP { (foo) { $/.CURSOR.panic: "!$0!" } }; method panic($m) { die $m } }; G.parse("foo")
p6eval nom efad32: OUTPUT«Method 'match' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤»
cognominal to paraphrase a known ahphorism, I see the future this way "Every compiling system attempts to expand until it support genericity, hygienic macros and a metaobject system. Those which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can."
masak oh, so it's kinda similar to the problem in .subst ?
moritz the problem is basically that the regex engine doesn't publish match variables unless it is deemed necessary
and when parsing argument strings, that doesn't happen (but it should) 17:26
jnthn moritz: Yeah, it's that.
moritz: Just hit on the same conclusion.
masak sounds RT-able to me.
cognominal I forget to mention a type inferencing system, but perl 6 and rakudo are not there yet.
masak submits rakudobug 17:27
jnthn cognominal: Rakudo does various bits of type-driven analysis and (very) limited inference.
nom: constant x = 'lol'; multi foo(Int) { }; foo(x)
p6eval nom efad32: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'foo' will never work with argument types (Str) (line 1)␤ Expected any of:␤ :(Int )␤»
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cognominal I agree but I am talking of a more systematic stuff like does haskell. 17:27
moritz that's just propagation, not really inference, is it?
jnthn moritz: Well, we didn't decalre that x was of type Str anywhere 17:28
moritz: So in a sense it "figured it out"
moritz point taken
jnthn moritz: Though in this case the figuring was very easy (just do .WHAT)
moritz WAT?
jnthn :P
TimToady nom: constant x = 101; multi foo(Int) { }; foo(~x) 17:29
p6eval nom efad32: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'foo'. Available candidates are:␤:(Int )␤␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/pY4ppADszW:1␤␤»
TimToady dint figger that one out
moritz right, because it didn't constant-fold prefix:<~>
jnthn Well, it may have been able to figger it without constant folding too
TimToady it shouldn't have to constant fold to know that ~ is returning a string 17:30
cognominal anyway, my point is that it would be good the share the feeling of necessity of stuff is done in rakudo. People who wrongly see perl6 as perl5 improved clearly don't get it.
jnthn TimToady: Yeah, if we declare it on the proto it can do that.
cognominal s :1st /the/to/
moritz TimToady: well, that'd need a return type annotation on the proto or so
which we don't have yet, I guess
jnthn Yeah, at the moment that won't be considered or enforced. 17:31
All doable. :)
moritz just needs sufficiently advanced tuits :-)
TimToady cognominal: however, there's a tendency in type-inferencey languages to assume the user is as smart as the inferencer, which can lead to vast confusion among mere mortals 17:32
so we need to tread carefully there
jnthn The hard part isn't always figuring out that a piece of code could never work, but explaining why.
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TimToady you need to be able to present the chain of reasoning in a clear fashion 17:32
cognominal yes indeed, the way these systems "think" is so different we do. 17:33
jnthn moritz: Well, Germany has lots of beer ;)
TimToady just saying "That won't work for some reason" is about like saying "Syntax error" without a line number
cognominal :)
so true. 17:34
well, they give a reason but it is not human readable.
TimToady "No applicable candidates found" is already a bit gobbledygooky in my opinion 17:35
cognominal We tend to work with context, and inferecing types tends to use too much context for us to process. 17:36
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TimToady Cannot figure out which foo to call; available signatures are: 17:39
something more like that
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TimToady and it should say the type signature of what you did pass, and maybe the values if there are constraints 17:41
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TimToady niecza: constant x = 101; multi foo(Int) { }; foo(~x) 17:46
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: No candidates for dispatch to &foo; candidates are:␤ Int␤ at /tmp/qxnuzgp8NE line 1 (mainline @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3838 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3839 (module-CORE @ 6…
TimToady niecza's message is even less sensical; there are no candidates, and here they are 17:47
Error messages should avoid overly precise words like "dispatch", "candidates", "applicable" 17:48
the user is just trying to call foo
Cannot call foo; none of these signatures match: 17:50
jnthn TimToady: The message you suggested would seem to cover ambiguous or no possible candidates.
OK, that's better
What about the ambiguous case?
TimToady then it should say ambiguous
Cannot call foo; too many signatures match: 17:51
:)
jnthn "Ambiguous call to '%Ss'; these signatures all matched:\n%Ss" ? 17:52
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TimToady that's not half bad 17:52
would still like to see the actual arg types(+gisted values?) at some point 17:54
jnthn Yeah, I already got them into the compile-time errors. Will try and get 'em into the runtime ones soon also. 17:55
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TimToady is hard to please, except when he's not... 17:55
dalek kudo/nom: a89da25 | jnthn++ | src/binder/multidispatch.c:
Improve multi-dispatch error text; TimToady++.
 17:56
jnthn It needs to become a typed exception anyways at some point soon. 17:58
TimToady also, from a writerly perspective, the original message had a passive verb; those can usually be strengthened into some active verb
jnthn Happily, the message improved. 17:59
TimToady \o/
thanks
jnthn When we do the typed exception, I can just pass the capture of args that failed and the signatures available/ambiguous in the object 18:00
cognominal jnthn++ # integrating bs makes nom so much faster. 18:01
jnthn Then it'll be dead easy to render the error however we want it.
moritz and let me figure out the hard stuff :-)
jnthn \o/
moritz: I think joining strings together and calling .gist on stuff is easier in Perl 6 than it is in C ;)
moritz: We'll be sure to figure out how to do typed exceptions from C land while at GPW. 18:02
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moritz and from meta model land 18:06
I have some vague, sketchy ideas that might work out 18:07
but jnthn++ as probably much less vague and more realistic ideas :-) 18:08
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cognominal I agree that what piss me the most currently is C error messages that don't give the parrot/perl 6 line that triggered them. 18:12
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jnthn moritz: Do you mention grammars at all in your talk? 18:14
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cognominal I wish you fun at gpw. 18:16
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TimToady jnthn: a nit, but I'd s/matched/match/ in your ambiguous message; introducing unnecessary temporal information tends to cloud abstract statements 18:31
this is why literary critics always write about authors in the present tense
"In this passage Morris artfully weaves archaicisms with more modern notions" 18:32
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dalek kudo/nom: 4bdb94a | jnthn++ | src/binder/multidispatch.c:
Present for TimToady++.
 18:35
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masak jnthn++ # commit message 18:40
TimToady nit one, perl two... 18:41
moritz jnthn: I plan to 18:44
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jnthn dinner & 18:57
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TimToady I also think we should simplify these: s/Nominal type check/Type check/ and s/Constraint type check/Constraint/ 18:59
so it's just:
Constraint failed...
Type check failed...
moritz -1
"Constraint failed" could be a PRE too 19:00
or some other invariant
TimToady then it should say PRE
the rest of the message indicates it's in a parameter binding
cognominal jnthn, if you go back to Paris, you come to get to use the word used by Jean Dujardin at the academy award : putain! Explained here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSeaDQ6sPs0
TimToady we talk about nominal type checks, but I think the word does not carry sufficient weight to inflict it on the user 19:01
and PRE should probably be talking about invariants, not constraints, as you yourself just pointed out 19:02
constraints in Perl 6 are pretty consistently subset types (either named or anonymous), so "type" is redundant 19:03
so I stand by my proposal
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noteventime I'm slightly confused, does Parrot use LLVM nowadays? 19:25
moritz no
there are plans to use LLVM for the parrot's JIT compiler that is in planning
noteventime Ok, it's just some experimental extra you can enable
moritz but you can compile parrot with LLVM-GCC and with clan
*clang 19:26
noteventime Or did I misread something as a release log, that wasn't?
moritz maybe
noteventime "New --with-llvm option to Configure.pl, which will link to LLVM if it is available" <- Maybe that just means I can compile it with clang? 19:27
Or wait, does it mean it uses the LLVM linker? 19:28
moritz I'm reading parrot.org/news/2012/Parrot-4.1.0 and see no mention of LLVM at all
noteventime www.parrot.org/news/2011/Parrot-3.3.0 <- Thats the one I saw
moritz oh. That's a bit older :-)
noteventime It wasn't really imporant though, I was just curious
moritz: I read something about Parrot and LLVM and that's the release blurb I got when I googled it 19:30
moritz reads config/auto/llvm.pm and can't make much sense of it either
jnthn: ok, I now have some few slides on grammars 19:39
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noteventime Why use grammars rather than some kind of parser combinator library? Is it "just" a matter of performance or is there something deeper? 19:44
moritz why use some kind of parser combinator library instead of grammars? 19:45
the advantage of grammars is that they harmonize quite well with the OO system
they just use it
so you can take advantage of all the neat stuff (role composition for example)
in grammars too 19:46
noteventime Couldn't that be achieved by having classes containing parser combinators though? I'm not saying it'd a better approach, coming from Haskell I was just curious if there are any strong reasons against doing parser combinators. 19:47
(I mean, having methods returning parser generators, making it possible for roles to fill them in) 19:48
moritz could probably be
but currently it sounds more complicated, without any obvious benefits
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noteventime Well, you wouldn't have to have them be a language feature, which might be considered a benefit. 19:51
TimToady as soon as you use the word "combinator" you've scared away 2/3 of your potential users :) 19:52
mathw I'm not sure you could get the syntax as good if they were combinators
noteventime That's a good point
mathw Parsec's good, but it's still not as elegant as Perl 6 grammars IMO
moritz well, Perl 6 is malleable enough that you can surely implement that as a library
noteventime TimToady: The people using "combinator" might consider that an additional benefit ;)
mathw moritz: yes but the grammars being built into the language is one of the ways in which that mallability is accomplished 19:53
TimToady Perl 6 is not aiming primarily to please the intelligensia
noteventime I'm not saying grammars aren't a nice idea, I like them, especially in this age of DSLs :)
geekosaur noteventime, you'r actually missing a point. it's not about "build parser into the language", it's about "make regular expressions composable" 19:54
moritz and reusable
geekosaur think of it as part of regex syntax, intended to make them easier to think about and reuse
moritz but we don want a parser built into the language, and we have that :-)
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moritz s/don/do/ 19:55
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noteventime geekosaur: And having composable regular expressions seems to do largely the same thing as having a parser combinator library 19:55
mathw it helps that it's the same parser that's used by the compiler
TimToady noteventime: yes, that "benefit" of the typical FP language is something we're trying very hard to avoid
noteventime TimToady: Typical FP language meaning Haskell and OCaml? 19:56
geekosaur noteventime, but regexes are perl. so we should prefer something that isn't?
TimToady it's the job of Perl to educate people wherever they are, not to chase them away if they don't meet some high standard
noteventime geekosaur: As I said, I'm not saying it would have been a better choice, I just wondered if there were any obvious reasons for using it that I had missed 19:57
TimToady: I wasn't being very serious :)
geekosaur (so why continue once that was answered?)
masak how can I fail a rule in present-day Rakudo?
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TimToady <!> 19:57
well, that's supposed to work 19:58
masak TimToady: doesn't that just fail the current alternation?
I want to fail the rule.
TimToady uh, ::: <!> then
jnthn Another one is that we parse Perl 6 with Perl 6 grammars, so your language tweaks can be meta-circular.
noteventime geekosaur: Because I didn't quite understand the reasons that were given
masak TimToady: ::: not yet implemented
TimToady: "...in present-day Rakudo"
TimToady noteventime: well, we're not trying to chase you away either :)
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moritz masak: there's probably some nasty hack with { return self.'!cursor_fail'() } or something 20:00
masak yeech.
moritz step back. What are you trying to do?
TimToady put a ||<!> on the outer construct, maybe
jnthn Wait, ::: doesn't immediately failing the rule though, iirc?
noteventime geekosaur: Sorry if I sounded negative, I really do like the language
jnthn ::: fails it if it gets backtracked over
TimToady that's why I put a <!> after it 20:01
jnthn TimToady: oh!
I misread.
masak TimToady: that might work, thanks.
jnthn Sorry.
masak: Did b do :::?
moritz alpha: /a ::: a/
p6eval alpha : ( no output )
masak jnthn: alpha definitely did.
moritz b: /a ::: a/ 20:02
p6eval b 1b7dd1: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤::: not yet implemented at line 22, near " a/"␤»
masak because PGE did.
jnthn No, then.
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moritz but notice that the semantics have changed since the alpha days 20:02
jnthn Yeah...PGE ain't easy to look at for inspiration though. Whereas nqp-rx is.
TimToady niecza: 'ab' ~~ /a ::: b/
jnthn But I can probably figure out how to do ::: without too much trouble anyway.
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: ( no output )
TimToady niecza: say 'ab' ~~ /a ::: b/
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(2) text(ab) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
masak moritz: I'm parsing things with the structure ABBBBBABBBB, and I started to emit error messages when I come upon an unknown kind of B. but I don't want it to flag up an A. 20:03
TimToady niecza: say 'acb' ~~ /a [ c ::: <!> ] b/
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
masak moritz: so in a sense, I'm stuck in an inner loop, wrongly flagging up things that are OK in the outer loop.
TimToady niecza: say 'ab' ~~ /a [ c ::: <!> ] b/
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
TimToady niecza: say 'ab' ~~ /a [ c ::: <!> ]? b/
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(2) text(ab) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
TimToady niecza: say 'acb' ~~ /a [ c ::: <!> ]? b/ 20:04
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
TimToady looks like niecza does it right
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masak niecza++ 20:04
jnthn masak: Can probably implement it for you later today.
:: is the harder one.
TimToady yes, well, that's an instruction to the LTMer 20:05
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masak jnthn: \o/ 20:05
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TimToady so backtrack over :: can actually go out many levels, unlike :: 20:05
er, :::
:: goes out to whatever level the LTM is alternating at 20:06
we could do all of this with arguments to <commit>
<commit 'LTM'>, <commit &ROUTINE>, etc 20:07
masak heh. moritz++' suggestion { return self.'!cursor_fail'() } seems to abort the whole *program*, not just the grammar parse. 20:08
TimToady then you could commit to any rule in your outer dynamic scope
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TimToady and <commit> as currently defined defaults to <commit 'TOP'> or some such, more or less, give or take a few aspirin 20:09
masak g'ah, this is really frustrating! everytime I think I've worked around the thing, it turns out I've only aborted the current... group or alternation, not the whole rule. 20:10
maybe I'm really wanting something like ~ 20:11
nope, that didn't work either. 20:12
TimToady wonders if there's a way to install a CATCH block in a rule 20:13
moritz TimToady: recently I was wondering how one would export a CATCH block
TimToady: for a custom exception / backtrace printer
masak nom: grammar G { regex TOP { <outer>* }; regex outer { A <inner>* }; regex inner { B | (.) { say "Unknown B: $0" } } }; say G.parse("ABBBBABBB")
p6eval nom 4bdb94: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤=> <ABBBBABBB>␤ outer => <ABBBBABBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <A>␤ 0 => <A>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤␤» 20:14
TimToady we might have to relax the highlander rule for that
or wrap CATCHes somehow
masak how do I get Rakudo to stop considering "A" an unknown "B" above?
TimToady: what's the highlander rule?
TimToady There kin only be one! 20:15
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masak ah, 'course. 20:15
masak clarly has watched too little of that genre
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TimToady only knows about it from RFC 9 20:16
"Highlander Variable Types" 20:17
moritz fwiw the feature matrix still says - for run, qx in niecza
masak TimToady: that's what I was thinking of too. 20:18
ah well, I turned off my nice "Unknown B" warnings. seems I can't have them just now.
TimToady I really don't understand how you think a cut could help that 20:21
TimToady should eat breakfast now that it's after noon, maybe 20:22
masak a cut? I wanted to abort the rule at that point. if <inner> reports failure, the * quantifier is satisfied and <outer> succeeds. 20:23
the equivalent of the rule saying "this is not for me to handle".
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masak tadzik: see you on the other side! 20:29
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moritz wishes tadzik a good travel 20:35
jnthn tadzik: Safe travels :) 20:36
TimToady nom: grammar G { regex TOP { <outer>* }; regex outer { A <inner>* }; regex inner { B | (.) { say "Unknown B: $0" <!> } } }; say G.parse("ABBBBABBB") 20:45
p6eval nom 4bdb94: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix !> instead at line 1, near " } } }; sa"␤» 20:46
TimToady nom: grammar G { regex TOP { <outer>* }; regex outer { A <inner>* }; regex inner { B | (.) { say "Unknown B: $0" } <!> } }; say G.parse("ABBBBABBB")
p6eval nom 4bdb94: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤=> <ABBBBABBB>␤ outer => <ABBBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ outer => <ABBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤␤»
TimToady why not just that?
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masak TimToady: because it still prints "Unknown B: A" 20:51
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masak TimToady: the trick wasn't about aborting the rule after printing that, the trick was about aborting the rule before that. 20:51
if it encounters a C, it's fine for it to squawk. but not if it encounters an A. 20:52
moritz then just write B | <!before A> (.) { ... } <!> 20:53
or quantify <inner> with *? maybe?
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masak hm. :) 20:57
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moritz masak: searching for an advanced, NYI language feature instead of using existing ones is a disease that the early adaptors should be immune against *SCNR* 20:59
masak moritz: oh, come *on*. :P 21:01
that is so not fair -- I didn't pout once, and was honestly looking for a workaround.
moritz ok, you are right 21:02
sorry
masak I believe moritz++ was referring to strangelyconsistent.org/blog/attitude
which is still relevant and something I try to keep in mind.
fwf, I'm having fun building Yet Another Presentation Framework this evening. 21:04
this is it, folks. the Ultimate Framework.
moritz does it mean it's a superset of my own framework? :-) 21:05
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masak maybe in some very loose sense. 21:07
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moritz will have to do some JS hacking tomorrow, and doesn't look forward to it :/ 21:19
TimToady I still fail to see how you expect a cut-like operation to read your mind about whether there's an A there or not if you never test for A 21:32
masak IWBNI heredocs were listed at perl6.org/compilers/features 21:34
TimToady: I'm willing to test for A. but I can't seem to do it outside of an alternation or a non-capturing group, and <!> will only abort that alternation or non-capturing group.
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TimToady niecza: grammar G { regex TOP { <outer>* }; regex outer { A <inner>* }; regex inner { B | <?before A > ::: <!> | (.) { say "Unknown B: $0" } <!> } }; say G.parse("ABBBBABBB") 21:38
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(9) text(ABBBBABBB) pos([].list) named({"outer" => (#<match from(0) to(5) text(ABBBB) pos([].list) named({"inner" => (#<match from(1) to(2) text(B) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, #<match from(2) to(3) text(B) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, #…
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TimToady well, that's the way I said first thing, it's just rakudo don't do it yet 21:39
QnD anyone in here know anything about active perl dev
TimToady as in from ActiveState?
QnD yeh
TimToady as far as I know there's no ActiveState development of Perl 6...</rimshot>
a #perl-help or #perl channel might be more useful there 21:40
QnD i need to know how to load activeperl for other OS's so i can crosscompile
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QnD k 21:40
TimToady there have historically been activestate mailing lists, maybe you can hunt those up
masak TimToady: yes, that was the first thing I said, but my question was about how to do it in present-day Rakudo... :) 21:41
TimToady here, have a lollipop
QnD activestate used to be cool with giving out info.... now they are too big for their boots
TimToady so the way to do it in present-day Rakudo is to patch it :P 21:42
QnD thx... cheers 21:43
masak apparently. :)
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TimToady hmm, I have an idea 21:45
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TimToady perl6: grammar G { regex TOP { <outer>* }; regex outer { A <inner>* }; regex inner { B | [(.) { say "Unknown B: $0" }]?? } }; say G.parse("ABBBBABBB") 21:47
p6eval rakudo 4bdb94, niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class G: "&parse"␤ at /tmp/VlYubNqekx line 1, column 124 - line 2, column 1␤»
TimToady perl6: grammar G { regex TOP { <outer>* }; regex outer { A <inner>* }; regex inner { B | [(.) { say "Unknown B: $0" }]?? <!> } }; say G.parse("ABBBBABBB") 21:48
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤#<match from(0) to(9) text(ABBBBABBB) pos([].list) named({"outer" => (#<match from(0) to(5) text(ABBBB) pos([].list) named({"inner" => (#<match from(1) to(2) text(B) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, #<match from(2) to(3) text(B) pos([].list) named…
..rakudo 4bdb94: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤=> <ABBBBABBB>␤ outer => <ABBBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ outer => <ABBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class G: "&parse"␤ at /tmp/5eLZZnvd6g line 1, column 128 - line 2, column 1␤»
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TimToady perl6: grammar G { token TOP { <outer>* }; token outer { A <inner>* }; regex inner { B | [(.) { say "Unknown B: $0" }]?? <!> } }; say G.parse("ABBBBABBB") 21:50
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤#<match from(0) to(9) text(ABBBBABBB) pos([].list) named({"outer" => (#<match from(0) to(5) text(ABBBB) pos([].list) named({"inner" => (#<match from(1) to(2) text(B) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, #<match from(2) to(3) text(B) pos([].list) named…
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class G: "&parse"␤ at /tmp/Gdl79TKEwQ line 1, column 128 - line 2, column 1␤»
..rakudo 4bdb94: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤=> <ABBBBABBB>␤ outer => <ABBBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ outer => <ABBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤␤»
21:50 noam_ left
TimToady that ought to fail with 0 reps the first time, and backtrack to 1 rep (and a warning) only if the whole pattern fails, I'd think 21:51
perl6: grammar G { token TOP { <outer>* }; token outer { A <inner>* }; regex inner { B || [(.) { say "Unknown B: $0" }]?? <!> } }; say G.parse("ABBBBABBB") 21:52
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤#<match from(0) to(9) text(ABBBBABBB) pos([].list) named({"outer" => (#<match from(0) to(5) text(ABBBB) pos([].list) named({"inner" => (#<match from(1) to(2) text(B) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, #<match from(2) to(3) text(B) pos([].list) named…
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class G: "&parse"␤ at /tmp/xmzeg5iDxt line 1, column 129 - line 2, column 1␤»
..rakudo 4bdb94: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤=> <ABBBBABBB>␤ outer => <ABBBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ outer => <ABBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤␤»
TimToady perl6: grammar G { token TOP { <outer>* $ }; token outer { A <inner>* }; regex inner { B || [(.) { say "Unknown B: $0" }]?? <!> } }; say G.parse("ABBBBABBB") 21:53
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤#<match from(0) to(9) text(ABBBBABBB) pos([].list) named({"outer" => (#<match from(0) to(5) text(ABBBB) pos([].list) named({"inner" => (#<match from(1) to(2) text(B) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, #<match from(2) to(3) text(B) pos([].list) named… 21:54
..rakudo 4bdb94: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤=> <ABBBBABBB>␤ outer => <ABBBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ outer => <ABBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class G: "&parse"␤ at /tmp/9gw6cevc66 line 1, column 131 - line 2, column 1␤»
TimToady not clear why the ?? isn't working
perl6: grammar G { token TOP { <outer>* $ }; token outer { A <inner>* }; regex inner { B || <!> || (.) { say "Unknown B: $0" } <!> } }; say G.parse("ABBBBABBB") 21:56
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤#<match from(0) to(9) text(ABBBBABBB) pos([].list) named({"outer" => (#<match from(0) to(5) text(ABBBB) pos([].list) named({"inner" => (#<match from(1) to(2) text(B) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, #<match from(2) to(3) text(B) pos([].list) named…
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class G: "&parse"␤ at /tmp/IiWG4hQHx0 line 1, column 134 - line 2, column 1␤»
..rakudo 4bdb94: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤=> <ABBBBABBB>␤ outer => <ABBBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ outer => <ABBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤␤»
TimToady perl6: grammar G { token TOP { <outer>* $ }; regex outer { A <inner>* }; regex inner { B || <!> || (.) { say "Unknown B: $0" } <!> } }; say G.parse("ABBBBABBB") 21:58
p6eval niecza v15-2-gd19c478: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤#<match from(0) to(9) text(ABBBBABBB) pos([].list) named({"outer" => (#<match from(0) to(5) text(ABBBB) pos([].list) named({"inner" => (#<match from(1) to(2) text(B) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>, #<match from(2) to(3) text(B) pos([].list) named…
..rakudo 4bdb94: OUTPUT«Unknown B: A␤=> <ABBBBABBB>␤ outer => <ABBBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ outer => <ABBB>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤ inner => <B>␤␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class G: "&parse"␤ at /tmp/bxRvS7HBpj line 1, column 134 - line 2, column 1␤»
TimToady gives up spamming for now 21:59
masak it's a tricky one to workaround, fershure. 22:01
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dalek p/kill_props_vtables: 572970e | bacek++ | src/ (2 files):
Update to latest parrot with replaceing prop VTABLEs with standalone functions
 22:06
jnthn Well, that'll save some pointless virtualism. bacek++ 22:07
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masak nom: my $foo = "OH HAI"; say "<b>$foo</b>" 22:35
p6eval nom 4bdb94: OUTPUT«Method 'at_key' not found for invocant of class 'Str'␤ in method postcircumfix:<{ }> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1196␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/oxbLthoO2u:1␤␤»
masak nom: my $foo = "OH HAI"; say "<b>$foo\</b>"
p6eval nom 4bdb94: OUTPUT«<b>OH HAI</b>␤»
masak oh, that works now. someone++
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cognominal I have the feeling that my macbook ventilator is more sollicitated but for a shorter time with compiling nom with bs 22:45
*solicited? 22:46
masak phenny: "ventilateur"?
phenny masak: "fan" (fr to en, translate.google.com)
cognominal oops 22:47
masak from Latin "vannus" -- "winnowing basket".
cognominal when my French hit the fan...
masak :)
cognominal *hits
masak "pardon my French..."
22:47 havenn left 22:48 skipper left 22:51 PacoAir left
cognominal :) 22:51
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cognominal "Le président de la chaîne Starbucks, Howard Schultz, pose devant le premier-café boutique de Paris, avenue de l'Opéra" Avec un mug. On voit le fin connaisseur de la culteur française. Je doit être comme ma mère qui me fait une scène quand je bois dans une canette, mais je ne peux pas boire du chocolat ou du café dans un gobelet en carton. 23:04
masak guten nacht, #perl6
cognominal oops
wrong channel again :(
jnthn C'est affreux!
masak "Avec un mug." :)
knowing this channel, he's gonna throw it at a wall.
jnthn
.oO( at a Wall )
 23:05
masak "I've decided never to develop Perl 6, and to put Jon Orwant in anger management therapy." 23:06
cognominal :) 23:07
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cognominal well in French Perl conferences we do serve coffee in a platic cup because we are cheap. 23:08
but people don't have to pay for it so we have a excuse.
masak Jon Orwant incident, plastic cup version: "I've decided to release Perl 5.8" 23:10
heh, fan fiction. it's fun.
Jon Orwant incident, cup doesn't break: "We need to harden Perl 5 and make it more secure." 23:11
jnthn
.oO( Nej, d e fan! )
masak phenny: "Nej, det är fan!" 23:12
phenny: "Nej, det är fan!"?
phenny masak: "No, it's hell!" (sv to en, translate.google.com)
jnthn is still working out the exact usage of that word 23:13
I hear it daily, however :)
masak Jon Orwant incident, cup goes through a window: "We need a dedicated Windows port of Perl."
cognominal :the mug transmogrified to a strawberry? 23:14
masak only in a universe where the cup hits the wall and breaks, does Mr Wall get to break backwards compat. :)
23:14 ascrazy left
jnthn And the result was smashing. :) 23:15
masak jnthn: it's a complex word, to be sure. I count uses as a noun, adverb, and interjection.
cognominal is that wat to fuck or shit is to english? 23:16
*what
jnthn My impression is it's not that strong.
masak only because secularism is on the rise.
religious swears simply don't have that strong a feel anymore. 23:17
jnthn English swears seem pretty fashionable here.
masak everything from the Anglophone culture is immediately cool here. 23:18
jnthn Even I'm cool in Sweden.
Though that's mostly due to the weather. :P 23:19
23:19 PacoAir left
[Coke] stares at his haskell problem. 23:19
cognominal I am reading Miles Davis autobriography, there is many "shit" and/or "motherfucker" per page. And in one of my favorite movie "The big Lebowsky" uses "fucking" every other sentences. 23:20
masak [Coke]: what *is* your Haskell problem?
cognominal s/uses/The dude uses/
23:22 PacoAir joined
masak tries again to leave 23:22
'night, #perl6
jnthn see you dans l'aeroport, masak :) 23:23
[Coke] masak: gah, I was going to tell you my problem. ;) 23:30
masak: o/
In case he lied, see feather.perl6.nl/~coke/pugs.patch; with it, "Int" throws a multi error, before it says ::Int. 23:36
geekosaur 404... 23:40
23:41 havenn joined
[Coke] s/patch/diff/ 23:43
jnthn Time for sleep...'night 23:52
23:53 gv left
[Coke] jnthn: ~~ 23:53
geekosaur mmmmmmrgh was hoping it was a haskell type error, I have a little clue about those, pugs multis are a bit beyond me (I should probably try to wrap my head around that again) 23:55

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