»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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masak 'night, #perl6 00:29
colomon o/ 00:33
[Coke] o/
sorear o/ 00:35
colomon should be helping [Coke] instead of trying to figure out continued fractions... 00:44
sorear I can help you figure out continued fractions, maybe 00:45
[Coke] eh. no worries, I shouled be dayjobbing.
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colomon sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2012/02/cage-...ealed.html 01:11
errr, huh
Method 'eager' not found for invocant of class 'Integer'
that's the correct paste 01:12
script works fine in niecza
hmmm, guess I should get around to updating my nom 01:13
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colomon sorear: do you know any references for basic continued fraction math other than that mjd talk? 01:34
sorear real references? I'm not sure 01:37
I think I might have seen it first in HAKMEM
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colomon that sounds familiar. 01:38
colomon has never actually looked at hakmem... 01:39
101B
hmmm, reference to Knuth 01:41
volume 2, page 356 in the third edition 01:43
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[Coke] sorear: huh. kernel_task was mysteriously pegging multiple cores on my box, which is why everything was so slow. 03:01
rebooted, things are much better now 03:02
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sorear yay, closure 03:04
[Coke] (supporting evidence: enough thing are going to turn the fan on now.) 03:05
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[Coke] aaargh. after all that mess, the ghc you get from macports is 6.10.4; feather has 7.4.1 03:26
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geekosaur yep 03:39
that said, even 7.0.4 has changes that seem to break Pugs as of the version I tried to install last week, so 6.10.4 might be just its speed 03:40
(also note 7.4.1 causes its own breakages; just had to help another new Haskeller deal with the change to Num's superclasses a couple minutes ago...) 03:41
[Coke] I've been doing my pugs spectest runs/fudging against the version on feather, so I know that one works. 03:43
sorear wait, wait, what? 03:44
They *changed* _Num_'s /superclasses/?
geekosaur Eq and Show went away, yes. change to appear in the next Haskell standard
sorear back in my day those were the only superclasses 03:45
I guess there might have been Ord too, been a while
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geekosaur I think they might still have been, before their removal 03:45
Ord wasn't there since it's inapplicable to Complex
sorear Ord is useful if you want to form the type Map Complex a 03:46
or have people stopped using Map, too? 03:47
geekosaur there's an off-and-on argument over that issue, actually; some discussion of splitting Ord into a partial-order class, a fully ordered class, and an internal order class useful for things like Map 03:48
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[Coke] \o/ I have a working pugs on OS X. 03:51
sorear geekosaur: and a well-ordering class, and an argument over whether Haskell should take the AoC? :) 03:52
[Coke] sorear: ok, now this is thinking really hard: 03:53
mono run/Niecza.exe -c test.pl
sorear typical runtime 2 mins
[Coke] ah, there it goes. some tests failed: 03:55
gist.github.com/2019647
also, when I type "make test" again, it runs the -c line again - shouldn't that be cached? 03:56
wow. my checkout was severely messed up.give me a minute. 03:57
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sorear I haven't ever had a use for having the -c line be cached 04:00
[Coke] hee. I did a realclean and rebuild, and everything completed in virtually no time, no errors in make test. 04:01
presumably all a result of the earlier craziness.
sorear I wonder how messed up your checkout was to cause compile steps to take hours and yet only fail two tests
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[Coke] length of compilation was due to that kernel_task issue. (plus I was installing ghc at the same time, which was similarly delayed) 04:04
Running a spectest run now with TEST_JOB=5 to time it.
sorear might wanna check if the ghc build also borked... 04:06
[Coke] no, pugs works fine. 04:09
the builds done via ports were ok-but-slow.
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[Coke] n: say 764.87/60 04:16
p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«12.747833333333332␤»
[Coke] 12m for a full spectest run is pretty good. (though when I run it on feather, I'm simultaneously running all 3 implementations) 04:17
also, a lot of random failures on OS X:
gist.github.com/2019760
(those may be expected) 04:18
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sorear a lot of those look like subprocess tests. 04:35
do you have mono in $PATH?
[Coke] aye. 04:36
japhb rubs his eyes and comes up for air from a marathon study session on Eiffel, SCOOP, Erlang, AMQP, AnyEvent, Coro, ... damn my desire to understand things before hacking on them! 04:37
How are things in the land of JFDI?
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sorear not much better 04:44
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japhb sorear: sorry to hear that. :-/ 04:46
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moritz o/ 06:24
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tadzik HPatMoR chapter! 07:04
moritz \o/ 07:07
DrEeevil hrm. can anyone tell me what the canonical parrot bugtracker is supposed to be now? 07:25
tadzik github
DrEeevil oh dear :(
gah. hates. 07:26
DrEeevil makes note to try again in now +48h when the github anger is dissipated
tadzik ooc, what makes you hate GH so much? 07:28
DrEeevil well, mostly their lack of http 07:31
but apart from that ... the user interface values shiny over everything else, and so many people use it, thus I have to interact with it more than I want 07:32
Timbus i like bitbucket a lot more
side by side diffs <3 07:33
github probably does that by now
DrEeevil just give me a 404 on file not found 07:36
not a text 404 in a http 200 or such aargh *stabstabstab* 07:37
DrEeevil glares at sourceforge
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jnthn morning, #perl6 07:54
moritz \o 08:00
jnthn Ah, my final $dayjob assignment before vacation. \o/ 08:01
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jnthn Wow. Half of my students already came to another of my courses. 08:07
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moritz high retention rate :-) 08:58
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mishin Hi, Perl6, while I read rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/ I found that link rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/ is wrong, what the matter? 09:37
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/tree/master
I mean this link
jnthn Hmm....wonder why it has the tree/master part in the link 09:38
moritz rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo-nom/ is the up-to-date instructin page
we should synchronize the two, or something
jnthn Or just remove the old one 09:41
and rename the new one
moritz fixed the obvious out-of-date-ness 09:45
moritz adds a link to the debian packages 09:46
jnthn moritz++ 09:47
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moritz ooh, I know a great GSOC project 09:47
MiniDBI
and backends for mysql, postgres and sqlite 09:48
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jnthn ooh 09:50
Yes, Zavolaj can likely handle or be made to handle all of those now 09:51
eiro thinks that biblio framework could be a nice GSOC too (and can be mentor on it)
moritz maybe, though a workding DB connection would be a much bigger benefit to the Perl 6 community 09:53
jnthn: can I enter you as a mentor for MiniDBI? 09:54
eiro sureù! 09:55
jnthn moritz: sure 09:56
I'll be about most of the summer, so mentoring is fine
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moritz added to wiki.enlightenedperl.org/gsoc2012/ideas 10:02
search for "Database connection modules"
rafl: it would be really helpful to be able to link to sections wiki.enlightenedperl.org/gsoc2012/ideas 10:03
rafl moritz: you can add a TOC at the beginning of the document, i believe 10:05
with that you should also get anchors on the different headings
rafl tries it 10:06
moritz: wiki.enlightenedperl.org/gsoc2012/i...udo_Perl_6 10:07
moritz rafl++
thanks
jnthn: is that section on Multiple Dispatch Optimization in Rakudo still up-to-date and of interest? 10:08
seems like we are doing a good bit of that already
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jnthn moritz: No, much of what it suggests is done already 10:11
There are still opportunities to do optimization stuff
moritz jnthn: should I just delete that item?
moritz is a bit angry at himself. He had another good gsoc idea, didn't write it down, and promptly forgot it
jnthn moritz: yes, and I'll see if I can think up something to replace it 10:12
moritz done 10:13
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[Coke] cannot remember the last time he pulled an allnighter. 10:24
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masak antenoon, #perl6 10:28
moritz \o masak 10:29
moritz wonders if he should distract masak right away, or wait until masak reads the backlog
masak the latter. :)
my capacity for being distracted is always limited when I'm at $dayjob.
moritz waits
masak all appearances nonwithstanding :0 10:30
:)
a little ditty: gist.github.com/2021108 10:43
someone could make a Rosetta Code page out of that program ;) 10:44
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moritz nom: gist.github.com/2021108 a b c 10:44
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/4RmX6JgLjQ:1␤»
masak er. I wrote it with numbers in mind. 10:46
hence infix:<==> at line 10.
I guess it could be infix:<===> and the thing would work for any type. 10:47
moritz p6eval doesn't know how to pass command line arguments to gists anyway
masak no, but in retrospect that's quite a neat idea.
moritz we just need to be careful to not allow injection of meta chars into the command line
masak OMG HPMoR! 10:50
moritz distraction accomplished! 10:51
masak the rest of the day suddenly turns into one big exercise in $dayjob discipline!
[Coke]: wait, you pulled an allnighter? 10:53
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[Coke] masak: aye. :( 10:59
masak hugs [Coke] 11:01
moritz observes that hugme is still there. literal++ for helping me fix the rejoin
masak hugme: hug [Coke]
hugme hugs [Coke]
masak in Perl 6, given a string how do I ask "does this string represent an Int"? 11:05
I guess `$s.Int.Str eq $s` is a good start...
moritz well 11:06
if we were consequent, it would be $s.Int !~~ Failure
but in rakudo the case of not finding any leading digit simply returns 0 (and doesn't fail), because that's what the test suite wants 11:07
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masak shorter version: gist.github.com/2021108 11:09
using 'a b c' won't work, I realized, because the elements are also used as (1-based) indices.
so I left it as being integer-specific.
I would like to require the arguments to be integers; hence the question. 11:10
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masak www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2012/03/...ewolf.html -- nice one. 11:13
I have this feeling when using Moose, too.
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masak and yet I feel I'm only scratching the surface of what it can do. 11:14
MOPs are wonderful.
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bbkr Good day P6 :) What should I do to include JSON::RPC in Star release? How licensing works in such case - does module "inherits" Artistic 2.0 (which is my choice also) or should I place license file separately in my repo? 11:39
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masak an improved version, now with input validation and better sorting: gist.github.com/2021108 12:23
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moritz bbkr: there's no license inheritance. Putting a LICENSE file into your project is a good idea. 12:25
bbkr moritz: thanks 12:26
mdupont Rakudo failed to compile on my amd athalon overnight... more than 6 hours. 12:29
moritz mdupont: which rakudo have you tried to compile? latest version from git? 12:30
mdupont yes
moritz mdupont: how much RAM do you have available, and how did it fail? 12:31
mdupont that one part where it said be patient. i lost it
i think it is 1gb
moritz that's probably not quite enough :(
mdupont and it did not fail, it failed to finsish overnight
moritz it has probably swapped like mad
that step takes about 3 to 4 minutes on my machine
mdupont alles klar... it would be nice to have some binaries for older machines to test with. 12:32
moritz agreed
mdupont is there a build server for the project btw?
moritz problem is, parrot isn't relocatable right now
and thus rakudo isn't either
mdupont i read about debian packages, i was going to try and port them over to ubuntu
moritz so you need to settle for an installation prefix once, and then can't change it :( 12:33
mdupont eye see
:D
well, I guess it would be have to be /usr/local/bin
i could live with that.
or just put it in a chroot
that is relocatable :D 12:34
moritz :-)
well, that's something I could try
mdupont anyway, thanks.
maybe a perl6 vm
or image
moritz though right now I don't have access to a machine where I could do it
timotimo how does that work? ++«%handled{@cycle} - what's the << doing there?
mdupont i will try and compile it on the gcc build farm
they have alot of resources.
moritz timotimo: it applies the ++ to every element 12:35
colomon woah.... can't build rakudo. :(
masak timotimo: it distributes the prefix:<++> on all the elements.
colomon more specifically, can't build parrot?
timotimo ah, interesting
so it's the same as >>., but in reverse
masak timotimo: compare with @a <<+>> @b
er, @a >>+<< @b 12:36
mdupont so what is this rumor about a p5 translator, i could not find one... 12:37
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timotimo i don't know most of the stuff used in that: "gather for" and two fors in one line with a block (that part probably belongs to the gather), rotate, which is probably a method on lists, ... 12:39
masak mdupont: there isn't a p5 translator... yet.
mdupont ok thanks. is there any code from larry to try out?
masak timotimo: 'gather' works with 'take' to build a list without giving it an array name.
moritz nom: say <a b c d e>.rotate(2)
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«Method 'rotate' not found for invocant of class 'Parcel'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/_EJwe5zJYX:1␤␤»
mdupont i saw his google talk on that.
moritz nom: say <a b c d e>.list.rotate(2)
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«c d e a b␤»
masak hm, Parcel should probably have a .rotate...
moritz aye 12:40
masak timotimo: 'gather for' is just the sum of its part, a 'gather' with a 'for' loop in it.
timotimo: I tried to remove one of the 'for's on the line, but I think I need both, actually. one is for looping on all the sorted elements, the other is for looping on @p 12:41
timotimo is gather more than just eager evaluation?
masak yes.
it's lazy evaluation, but that isn't used in this code.
nom: constant @ones = gather for 0..* { take 1 }; .say for @ones[^5] 12:42
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«1␤1␤1␤1␤1␤»
timotimo ah, right, what does ^@cycle mean?
masak it's short for 0..@cycle, which is the same as 0 .. +@cycle
timotimo ah
masak er, 0 ..^ +@cycle
moritz nom: my @cycles = 1, 2, 5; say (^@cycles).perl 12:43
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«0..^3␤»
masak so skip the last elem.
timotimo right
moritz nom: my @cycles = 1, 2, 5; say (^@cycles).list
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«0 1 2␤»
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colomon niecza: my @cycles = 1, 2, 5; say (^@cycles).list 12:45
p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«0 1 2␤»
colomon std: my @cycles = 1, 2, 5; say (^@cycles).list
p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 113m␤»
masak pugs: my @cycles = 1, 2, 5; say (^@cycles).list 12:46
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«012␤»
timotimo pokes the perl interpreter at a few more things new to him
masak Pugs doesn't .gist lists yet. :)
JimmyZ irclog is down ?
masak mdupont: well, there's MAD in Perl 5, written by Larry. allegedly quite bit-rotten by now. 12:47
moritz JimmyZ: what makes you think so?
mdupont thanks masak
masak mdupont: there's also STD.pm6 and STD5.pm6
Perl 6 grammars for Perl 6 and Perl 5, respectively.
mdupont i will take a look at that, i would like to try starting to port some code over. thanks
JimmyZ moritz: I can't open it
masak the latter is incomplete.
mdupont so you have a p5 grammar written in p6 12:48
masak a partial one, yes.
mdupont interesting, thank you. I will find some time to look at this .
moritz JimmyZ: wfm
masak mdupont: the easiest way to learn p5->p6 is probably to read moritz++' blog posts on the matter, and to hang around here and ask sweet questions.
mdupont :D
i was thinking to just port some code over and see it crash and burn 12:49
masak well, much of Perl 6 is good at catching your Perl 5-isms.
mdupont ok, perfect. thanks
masak std: say for 1..10
p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of bare 'say'; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument at /tmp/6wY74EWz5d line 1:␤------> say⏏ for 1..10␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 110m␤»
masak std: class Foo {}; say new Foo
p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of C++ constructor syntax; in Perl 6 please use method call syntax at /tmp/0Rj6GZOzBe line 1:␤------> class Foo {}; say new Foo⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 109m␤»
JimmyZ moritz: that's weird. I can open other sites, but can't open irclog 12:50
moritz JimmyZ: please defnie "can't open"
masak std: say "foo" =~ /foo/
p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of =~ to do pattern matching; in Perl 6 please use ~~ at /tmp/xuMc7jW3Uv line 1:␤------> say "foo" =~⏏ /foo/␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 110m␤»
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timotimo in what synopsis do i have to look to find out how gather works? 12:56
moritz S04 12:57
timotimo that was the one i did not look at. why? i'm weird. 12:58
moritz timotimo: fwiw I have a git checkout of the specs on my disc, and then simply use ack or grep to find stuff 13:00
masak std: I pity the one who has to understand 'gather' from the description of it in S04. :/
p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed has at /tmp/gZ3uPBVxSl line 1:␤------> I pity the one who has ⏏to understand 'gather' from the descript␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤ typename␤Other potential difficulties:␤ 'has' declaration ou…
masak er, s/std: // :)
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moritz let's just link to perl6advent.wordpress.com/2009/12/2...r-of-eden/ 13:02
there's a reason after all that we wrote all that stuff
:-)
timotimo ah, nice 13:03
masak moritz++
it's a bit old, but I don't think that's a disadvantage.
timotimo The proposed pipe syntax, notably the ==>, would solve that. But it’s not implemented in Rakudo yet <- it is by now, isn't it? 13:06
should things like that be edited?
i'd say many people still read that blog
masak Rakudo implements both ==> [\~] today. 13:07
timotimo i know i read many posts - although maybe not retaining all of it
masak yes, someone, probably me, should update that post.
timotimo :) 13:08
you know what would be cool?
masak an ice cube?
timotimo something like a unit test that you could run automatedly that would signal whenever something in one of those blog posts gets out of date 13:09
masak wind from the north?
well, we have unit tests from the advent posts.
but they don't cover the prose.
timotimo that should totally be added ;)
moritz timotimo: I dare you to look into the integration/ subdir of the roast repo
timotimo as soon as the ==> is implemented, the xfail test would suddenly go red and you could take note and update the post 13:10
moritz and we update the tests when the spec changes, but not always the post
timotimo that's sweet 13:11
covering the claims made in the prose with unit tests is just a suggestion, nobody has to do it. but if you like it, it could also be used in the book 13:12
moritz now that I would love
but I don't love it enough to build the infrastructure for it right now
timotimo :) 13:13
neither do i
sorry for being useless
[Coke] autotesting snippets from the book isn't too bad. parrot does it with its PIR code snippets.
(of course, that's POD, not latex)
masak reads his own post and thinks "wtf is 'lexical recursion'?" 13:14
moritz not quite the same as temporal recursion? :-)
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masak the concept is like saying "hygienic parsing". it's just two terms, which don't make sense together. 13:15
moritz t/spec/S05-mass/rx.rakudo (Wstat: 0 Tests: 725 Failed: 1) Failed test: 253 13:16
does anybody else get that output on recent-ish rakudo? 13:17
jnthn ENOICU so not been runnign that test
dalek ast: bf187bc | moritz++ | S04-declarations/state.t:
fix plan in state.t
moritz and nobody seems to have noticed that one either :/ 13:18
jnthn huh, I thought I patched taht one... 13:19
jnthn guesses he did it wrong or forgot to push
moritz guesses the latter
masak moritz: that test always fails for me. 13:20
moritz I'm just a bit disappointed that we had a new test failure, and nobody told me 13:22
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jnthn moritz: Well, I figured patching was more useful than telling. But then screwed up the patching. 13:23
moritz jnthn: I know that you have that attitute, but I thought we had an anonymous crowed of people that smoked rakudo every few days :-) 13:24
jnthn ah :)
true
jnthn blames all the anti-smoking campaigns :P
masak I would've told, but I thought it was just a well-known, persistent failure. 13:27
moritz except for intermittent failures in the socket tests, I know of no (other) regularly failing tests
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masak we should really DI the socket tests. 13:30
moritz DI?
masak dependency-inject. 13:31
I really meant some kind of mocking, to get rid of pesky real-world side effects.
jnthn I think we want to test the real world thing works though :)
moritz masak: but then we won't notice when parrot breaks the socket stuff 13:32
masak ah, troo.
timotimo is there any special reasoning behind the "name" of the [\~] operator?
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masak but it's a sad thing that those tests aren't 100% dependable. 13:32
jnthn [\ looks like a triangle :)
timotimo i wouldn't look at it and go "of, of course that's what it does, it says so right on the label"
masak maybe martinfowler.com/articles/nonDeterminism.html would help somehow.
timotimo are there other operators that begin with [\ and have something to do with triangles? 13:33
moritz well, you can triangle-reduce any operator 13:34
nom: .say for [\+] 1, 2, 1, 3
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«1␤3␤4␤7␤»
masak nom: .say for [\~] <a b c d>
moritz well, any infix really
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«a␤ab␤abc␤abcd␤»
masak nom: .say for [\-] 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«1␤-1␤-4␤-8␤-13␤»
geekosaur oh, mapAccum
moritz nom: say .perl for [\=>] 1, 2, 1, 3
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«3␤1 => 3␤2 => 1 => 3␤1 => 2 => 1 => 3␤»
moritz I don't know how it's called elswhere, but it's really reduction plus accumulation 13:35
timotimo oh, i see
that's cool
moritz or folding and accumulation, if you want to phrase it that way
geekosaur hrm, not mapAccum[LR]. scan? 13:39
masak it's not a map, it's a fold. 13:40
geekosaur right, hence "scan" (which is a modified fold)
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geekosaur but I'm too tired to work this out at the moment :/ (and sleep not likely to happen any time soon...) 13:40
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masak I guess a ribosome counts as doing a mapAccum, because it traverses the mRNA and pushes out more and more protein. 13:47
timotimo hm, is something like [\[\...]] sensible? 13:48
masak whereas DNA replication is more of a fold + accum, because it consumes the DNA and pushes out duplicated DNA.
nom: say [\[\~]] <a b c d e> 13:49
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/j1HnWJDGwh:1␤»
masak std: say [\[\~]] <a b c d e>
p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Bogus term at /tmp/NeyqPf_wh_ line 1 (EOF):␤------> say [\[\~]] <a b c d e>⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 111m␤»
timotimo :)
masak I would've *thought* it'd be sensible, but seems it isn't.
timotimo sensible in the context of perl6, of course 13:50
maybe someone can come up with something ;)
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masak moritz: I want to learn more about DbC/Eiffel/Bertrand Meyer. is there some book in particular you'd recommend? 14:01
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moritz masak: "Object Oriented Software Construction, Second Edition" 14:02
by Mr. Meyer
masak: don't go for the third edition. It is much longer, but not more informative, I've been told (I only read the second edition) 14:03
masak ah. this all sounds le familiar. 14:07
thanks.
eiro hello 14:17
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masak heirro! \o/ 14:19
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eiro \o/ masak 14:22
masak nom: say spivak "masak gave him a greeting, to make sure he felt welcome."; sub spivak { $^s.subst(/<<[he|she]>>/, "ey", :g).subst(/<<[his|hers]>>/, "eir", :g).subst(/<<[him|her]>>/, "em", :g) } 14:23
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«masak gave em a greeting, to make sure ey felt welcome.␤»
eiro i want to take some time selling perl6 :)
masak I'm just feeling, wrt that email thread, that it'd be awesome to prepare a good Perl 6 intro thing for people if enough show up.
if it's just one person, it's less fun to make all the preparations :) 14:24
moritz has some thoughts about that too
masak but I guess that's the wrong end to start in, in some sense. maybe we should start by dreaming up a really good schedule for such a course.
what are we proud of and would like to get across?
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masak I totally agree that the general tone should be "keep it practical and grounded". 14:24
moritz but it still needs to show stuff that's much nicer than in Perl 5, or indeed most other languages 14:25
because otherwise you could simply use one of 'em
masak aye. 14:26
timotimo masak: in your cycles finder, do you use take [@cycle]; to evade any flattening or what's that for?
masak timotimo: right. 'take' flattens. 14:27
timotimo good to know
masak 'take' works very much like 'return' in that regard.
timotimo er, how so?
masak moritz: probably Rosetta Code might be a good source of real-code examples where Perl 6 is clearly better than other languages.
timotimo: `return @cycles` would also flatten the array into a capture. 14:28
eiro moritz, sure we have to show the differences but not in a academical, borring format.
moritz eiro: right
masak timotimo: that is, it doesn't really return one item, it returns @cycles.elems items.
eiro (that the pb with cat, i guess) 14:29
timotimo is [@mylist] the syntax expressly used for "don't flatten this"?
moritz yes
nom: .perl.say for [1, 2, 3], 4, 5, [6, 7]
eiro cat's talks are not practical neither fun. we need at least one of them
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«[1, 2, 3]␤4␤5␤[6, 7]␤»
timotimo there's so much stuff you need to know :\
i really like the way @cycle is created, that's pretty neat 14:31
the rotate line serves to put the lowest number first in the cycle array for prettier output? 14:33
masak eiro: who or what is cat? and why do you need at least one talk that's neither practical nor fun? 14:35
timotimo: yes.
[Coke] moritz: fails for me on my new OSX setup.
moritz masak: cat (Christian Apherghis-Tramoni) is the author of the mail that eiro++ replied to
masak timotimo: in a sense, it and the sort *.[0] help "normalize" the output. 14:36
moritz: oh! of course.
[Coke] moritz: perlcabal.org/~coke/rakudo_summary.out
timotimo oooh, now i get what +.[0] means. it's "sort by turning the first element of each array into a numerical context"
that wasn't so hard
masak interestingly, cat had some comments on the "Using Perl 6" book. 14:37
timotimo: yes, but the newest version of the gist just says *.[0]
here the asterisk means "there's an implicit block around this construct, and I'm really a $_"
timotimo ah, even without the { } 14:38
ah, because that's what the * does
masak so the + wasn't needed, it turned out.
the things are already numbers.
or, at least, numeric enough to be sorted right :)
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felher If i have a class C that has "has Int $.x" and i have a string like "3" stored in my $x: is there a neat way to write C.new(:$x)? Something like C.new(:+$x)? Or is C.new(:x($x.Int)) as neat as it gets? 14:44
timotimo at the very least :x(+$x) should work 14:47
indeed it does. not very neat i know :( 14:48
masak Extending Python's syntax: eli.thegreenplace.net/2010/06/30/py...to-python/ -- inneresting. 14:50
felher: in an ideal future, you should be able to store the type conversion in the attribute declaration: "has Int(Any) $.x". 14:51
felher: note: does not work yet, in any implementation. 14:52
felher timotimo: oh, yeah, i forgot about that. :)
masak: ok. That sounds really nice! I'm happy with just knowing that it will be there someday :) 14:53
well, kinda happy :)
masak Rakudo and Niecza are already both at a level that would have made me swoon back in 2008 :) 14:54
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masak aber: greetings. 14:57
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fsergot o/ 15:01
:)
hi #perl6! :)
masak fsergot! \o/
eiro re 15:03
masak phenny: la en "re"?
phenny masak: "a" (la to en, translate.google.com)
masak heh :)
phenny: la en "res publica"? 15:04
phenny masak: "state" (la to en, translate.google.com)
eiro masak, cat is a french monger, university lecturer. he's commited to the perl community but has a very accademic style
arnsholt masak: re is the ablative singular of res, if you care =)
eiro re -> rebonjour (kinda "hello again")
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masak arnsholt: I care. that's why it felt familiar. 15:05
eiro: I've met cat.
I just didn't know his nick.
phenny: la en "re vera"?
phenny masak: "in reality" (la to en, translate.google.com)
eiro is tadzik concidering to be one of us ? i forgot to add him to the loop
masak tadzik is coming to Oslo. haven't heard him consider Strasbourg. 15:06
phenny: la en "pro re nata"?
phenny masak: "the circumstances" (la to en, translate.google.com)
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cognominal I forget the name for the syntaxic sugar equivalent to a constructor ? help! 15:10
fsergot To people who will be in Oslo in April: How should I prepare to Hackathon? It'll be my first time. :)
TimToady cognominal: are you asking about .= new ? 15:12
mikec what's happening in april?
TimToady NPW + hackathon 15:13
cognominal TimToady, the general term that denotes that kind of sugar . Say [ ] for Array.new or {} for Hash.new
TimToady ah, we call them composers
cognominal TimToady++
masak fsergot: you make sure you're well-rested, you maybe think of some things you want to hack on, and you bring a laptop. 15:14
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mikec oh cool. 15:18
perl workshops are a good incentive to take holiday 15:19
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masak TimToady: I don't believe there's an NPW in connection with the hackathon. 15:20
TimToady oh, right, there's something though 15:21
at which TheDamian is teaching?
cognominal perl6: [1, 2, 3].map: { $_.WHAT } 15:22
TimToady the XOR of caffiene and senility can be either very good or very bad...
p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo b13c51, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: ( no output )
cognominal perl6: say [1, 2, 3].map: { $_.WHAT }
p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Int() Int() Int()␤» 15:23
..rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized value of type Int in string context␤use of uninitialized value of type Int in string context␤use of uninitialized value of type Int in string context␤ ␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«IntIntInt␤»
timotimo interesting
$_.WHAT seems to return a string on niecza, but an actual Int object on rakudo? 15:24
perl6: 1.WHAT.WHAT
TimToady gist should not be carping about uninit
p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo b13c51, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: ( no output )
timotimo oops
cognominal perl6: say [1, 2, 3].map: { $_.WHAT.gist }
timotimo perl6: say 1.WHAT.WHAT
p6eval rakudo b13c51, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Int() Int() Int()␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&gist"␤ at /tmp/9vNHCejAFe line 1, column 22-35␤»
pugs b927740: OUTPUT«Int␤»
..rakudo b13c51, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
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sisar NPW ~~ /Nordic Perl Workshop/ ? 15:25
masak aye.
TimToady: I don't know -- maybe TheDamian is just visiting Oslo.pm or some such?
sisar startted learning Verilog today
cognominal I am alway confused with the difference between $_.perl, $_.gist and $_.Str
sisar a weird language if you ask me
masak cognominal: .perl: a string of Perl 6 code. .gist: a "human-readable string". .Str: a cast to Str 15:27
sisar TimToady: have you considered designning a simulation/concurrent language based on the perl philosophy ? 15:28
fsergot masak++ thanks :)
TimToady sisar: the language I most worked on right before Perl was a discrete event simulation language 15:29
(not my language; I just wrote a new compiler for it)
unfortunately, a proprietary product, so you never saw it :) 15:30
sisar well, hardware description languages are so much different than programming languages, because they have the time element. It confuses the heck out of me :| 15:31
s/element/axis
it would be nice to write, '$x = $a + $b after 5s' :p 15:33
geekosaur .oO { who's porting Atom to p6? } 15:34
[Coke] sisar: easy enough with a builtin event loop.
(ala tcl)
TimToady sleep 5; $x = $a + $b; 15:35
the way to think about a discrete event simulator is that it just has multiple program counters running through your code simultaneiously
masak today's autopun spotting: twitter.com/misandristcutie/status/...0233102338 15:36
TimToady somehow the intentional ones aren't quite as funny 15:37
sisar TimToady: hm. It's the concept of delta-time which confuses me a lot. 15:38
TimToady I don't know what that term means, but in a des you could have multiple "transactions" waiting at different points in that sleep 5 15:40
flussence it may be easier to think of it as automating a model railway with about 2 million simultaneous trains :)
TimToady so a sleep 5 is more like a big loop of train track that multiple trains could be running on 15:41
each train takes 5 seconds to do the loop
sisar *time 15:42
'delta tim' is the infinitesimal delay it takes to actually compute the value of $a + $b, It is the simulator resolution time. 15:43
A "delta" takes ZERO ns to actually happen, but there IS a delay there.
masak TimToady: I thought all autopuns were more or less intentionally created.
granted, they can feel more or less "made up". but they're all made up.
sisar but well, i _have_ to learn it for my coursework, no point cribbing about it :) 15:44
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sisar how can i get a "std: " functionality locally ? Just like we have here in IRC. 15:59
masak sisar: 1. github.com/perl6/std 2. ??? 3. profit! 16:00
moritz step 2 involves calling 'make', and installing prerequisites when they are missing
masak and making an alias of a /usr/bin script 'std'. 16:01
I've done it now and then, and it's quite nice.
moritz we run the 'tryfile' script in p6eval
masak s/of/or/
sisar masak, moritz: i'll try that now, thanks o/
moritz you'll need JSON::XS, Moose and some other goodies 16:02
sisar moritz: the github std page says i'll need YAML::XS. Is it the same as JSON::XS ? 16:08
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moritz sisar: not the same. Trust them, not me :-) 16:10
sisar oh, ok. :-) 16:11
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jnthn decommute & 16:13
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cogno Perl6: my Numeric $n = 1; say $n 16:28
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masak cogno: 'perl6', not 'Perl6'. 16:29
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cogno I am in a laundromat and my app autocapitalized :( 16:30
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cogno perl6: my Numeric $n = 1; say $n 16:31
p6eval pugs b927740, rakudo b13c51, niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«1␤»
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felher If i do 'for 1,2,3,4 -> $a, $b' i get 1,2 and 3,4. Is there a way to get 1,2 and 2,3 and 3,4? 16:47
masak felher: for 1,2,3 Z 2,3,4 -> $a, $b 16:49
felher: alternately, for @a[0 .. *-1] Z @a[1 ..*] -> $a, $b
felher masak: yeah, good idea. thnx :)
masak: works great :) 16:51
moritz wow, after all this time hanging around in #perl6 I seem to have forgotten how rough the manners are in other channels
geekosaur so glad he avoids most of those channels 16:52
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masak moritz: yes, that strikes me too sometimes. 16:57
everything from crudeness through meanness to misogyny.
not everywhere, mind. but in many places. 16:58
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masak .= decommute 17:02
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[Coke] TimToady++ #YAPC::NA 17:24
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tadzik eiro: re Strasbourg, I don't know yet 17:31
it all depends on my exams
good evening btw :)
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timotimo there's no syntax or semantics to attach a restriction to a variable? instead i'll have to define a subset? 17:34
geekosaur a subset *is* a restriction to a variable, more or less 17:35
timotimo right, but i can't do it in one line with a "my", right? 17:36
nor will i ever?
benabik std: my $x where * > 10;
p6eval std 1ad3292: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 111m␤»
timotimo oh, interesting
benabik nom: my $x where * > 10; $x = 11; $x = 10
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Contextual %*PARAM_INFO not found␤»
benabik hm.
17:37 pernatiy left
moritz rakudobug. 17:37
17:38 pernatiy joined
geekosaur just hit that, was wondering if it was supposed to work or if he'd gotten completely lost in the discussion 17:38
moritz nom: my Any $x where * > 10; $x = 11; $x = 10 17:39
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Contextual %*PARAM_INFO not found␤»
geekosaur otoh I'm glad I remembered the currently specced syntax
benabik Given that std parses it, I'd guess that it's supposed to work. But I think rakudo is expecting some setup that sub performs.
(Or sig?)
moritz sig
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benabik nom: my :( $x where * > 10 ); $x = 11 17:39
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed my␤at /tmp/6UFKj1GLt0:1␤»
geekosaur yeh, bith * and $^a get that contextual not found error and $x gets $x undeclared 17:40
benabik eh.
moritz iirc 'my' introduces a signature, though often parsed with simplify rules
or something.
geekosaur (niecza doesn't do this yet?)
moritz n: my $x where * > 0
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p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Postconstraints, and shapes on variable declarators NYI at /tmp/h6e8XKAnNW line 1 (EOF):␤------> my $x where * > 0⏏<EOL>␤␤Potential difficulties:␤ $x is declared but not used at /tmp/h6e8XKAnNW line 1:␤---… 17:40
geekosaur niecza: my $a where * > 10; $a = 11; $a.say'
p6eval niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Postconstraints, and shapes on variable declarators NYI at /tmp/UrNuzUlcZf line 1:␤------> my $a where * > 10⏏; $a = 11; $a.say'␤␤Confused at /tmp/UrNuzUlcZf line 1:␤------> my $a where * > 10; $a = 11…
geekosaur meh 17:42
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geekosaur lost net , tried it locally, got that 17:42
moritz well, at least it has a better error message :-)
geekosaur trailing ' (shell habit) probably didn;t help...
benabik Yes, NYI is better than "random bit of compiler not found" 17:43
moritz geekosaur: well, it didn't even get that far in the parse
geekosaur bet pugs has a worse error :) (don't think it even tries to handle that syntax) 17:44
moritz p: my $x where $x > 0;
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** ␤ Unexpected "where"␤ expecting "?", "!", trait, "=", infix assignment or operator␤ at /tmp/brGTxZ85PY line 1, column 7␤»
moritz not worse than rakudo
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[Coke] pugs: 3.Rat.say 17:49
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&Rat"␤ at /tmp/60AH2dBGt_ line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1␤»
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moritz I guess I should look into setting up regular pugs builds on p6eval 17:54
pugs: say 3.Rat 17:58
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&Rat"␤ at /tmp/jUALxtYChb line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
dalek albot: dddfa71 | moritz++ | evalbot.pl:
use freshly built pugs
 17:59
moritz pugs: say 3.Int 18:00
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«*** No such method in class Int: "&Int"␤ at /tmp/2s4iBJs2aq line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1␤»
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moritz uhm 18:02
18:02 pernatiy left
moritz did somebody already do that? 18:02
benabik Since b927740 is from October, I'd guess not. 18:03
moritz ah, and I begin to see why not
cabal build
setup: ./Pugs.cabal has been changed, please re-configure.
cabal configure says: setup: At least the following dependencies are missing: 18:04
haskeline >=0.6.4.0, parsec >=3.0.0.0, pugs-DrIFT >=2.2.3.2
and trying to install haskeline gives me "System/Console/Haskeline/MonadException.hs:23:7: Could not find module `Control.Monad.State':
geekosaur on ghc 7.0.4 trying to install pugs gives me a conflict because most of pugs wants mtl1 but haskeline wants mtl2 18:05
benabik Need an older version of haseline?
geekosaur so I get a bunch of complaints from cabal about how it probably won;t work and ultimately a missing MonadIO (InputT something-I-forget)
moritz ah, and we have ghc 6.12.1 installed on p6eval
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moritz oh, and there's a locally installed ghc-7.2.1 18:06
which isn't picked up by default
so I guess I should remove the system GHC to avoid confusion 18:07
felher perl6: my %hash; %hash{3} = 3; say %hash.perl 18:09
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«("3" => 3).hash␤»
..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«{"3" => 3}.hash␤»
..pugs b927740: OUTPUT«{("3" => 3),}␤»
felher Hashes convert everthing to string before they use it as a key?
Like in p5?
moritz perl6: my %hash{Any}; %hash{3} = 3; say %hash.perl
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«{("3" => 3),}␤»
..rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«(3 => 3).hash␤»
..niecza v15-4-g1f35f89: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Postconstraints, and shapes on variable declarators NYI at /tmp/GwHNk8SKzP line 1:␤------> my %hash{Any}⏏; %hash{3} = 3; say %hash.perl␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib…
moritz felher: yes, unless you tell them not to
felher moritz++
#knew what i was about to ask before i even did :D 18:10
#or he is just a fast typer.
timotimo the syntax for having a restriction on the hashes type would look like this: my Int %foo; and a hash of str -> int would be my Int %hash{Str}? 18:11
flussence r: my %hash{Any}; %hash{3} = 3; say %hash.perl.eval.perl; # wondering what .hash does to it
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«("3" => 3).hash␤»
moritz flussence: .perl does the wrong thing right now 18:12
timotimo: yes. Though note that when you write my Int %hash{Str} you get Str type checks, not coercion
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moritz r: my Int %hash{Str}; %hash{3} = 2; 18:12
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$key'; expected Str but got Int instead␤ in method at_key at src/gen/CORE.setting:5743␤ in method postcircumfix:<{ }> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1184␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/AVqATEkc6l:1␤␤»
timotimo ah. is there something for coercion then? 18:13
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flussence r: say (3 => 3).hash(Any).perl; # will this work? 18:13
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 2 but expected 1␤ in method hash at src/gen/CORE.setting:1031␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/jlCckHlY16:1␤␤»
flussence guess not
moritz timotimo: there's a syntax for it, but it's not yet implemented
Str(Any)
benabik moritz: Int %h{Str(Any)} ? 18:14
moritz benabik: yes
(unless I messed up the order again)
benabik Yeah, I keep getting the order confused.
moritz one could just remember that leaving away the parenthesis part removes the coercion
so Str(Any) is actually a Str type constraint, and the (Any) is the coercion 18:15
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timotimo the "coercion" part says what it can be coerced from? or what? 18:17
moritz yes
timotimo mhm mhm 18:18
perl6 is a little bit like nethack: "the devs think of everything"
benabik It confuses me because in `sub (Str(Any) $)`, the apparent type constraint is Any, not Str. Although I guess it's more like `Any $ where *.^can('Str')` 18:19
felher nom: my %hash{Any} = 1,2,3,4; %hash{1} = 2; %hash{3} = 4; say %hash.perl 18:21
p6eval rakudo b13c51: OUTPUT«("1" => 2, "3" => 4, 1 => 2, 3 => 4).hash␤»
moritz benabik: well, coercion dosn't make much sense on an anonymous variable
felher Is this expected behavior?
moritz benabik: and Str is the type constraint of the variable 18:22
benabik moritz: I left off the name because it doesn't matter for the discussion.
moritz and Any is the user-facing part
felher: no, it's not
felher: it's a bug that the list assignment stringifies the key
felher moritz: i see. thnx :) 18:23
benabik moritz: That's what I meant by "from the outside". a sub with `Str(Any) $x` arg and a plain `$x` arg seem (more or less) identical to the caller.
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moritz benabik: right. But I guess you can't please both inside and outside with the same syntax 18:25
benabik: the previous one, '$x as Str', looked very wrong to the inside 18:26
benabik moritz: True enough, I suppose. I tend to thing of signatures as for the caller, the current way 'round makes more sense for Perl where sigs are used for variable declarations everywhere. (more or less) 18:28
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dalek ast: 339eddc | moritz++ | S09-hashes/objecthash.t:
test object hashes bug found by felher++
 18:35
ast: 8e09d79 | moritz++ | S (4 files):
rakudo autounfudges
 18:36
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felher \o/ :) 18:51
moritz I even have a fix locally here 18:54
dalek kudo/nom: bd67428 | moritz++ | src/core/ (2 files):
fix list assignment to object hashes

This moves the key type coercion to STORE_AT_KEY, which is replaced by a non-coercing method in the case of object hashes		 18:56
ast: 3696d21 | moritz++ | S09-hashes/objecthash.t:
fix now-passing objecthash test
 18:57
moritz pugs: say 'alive' 18:59
p6eval pugs b927740: OUTPUT«alive␤»
moritz ok, glad I didn't break that part :-)
felher++ 19:00
we really need more tests for that stuff
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moritz is Rob Kinyon known in here? if yes, under which nick? 19:29
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masak ooh, he's written Perl6::Role. search.cpan.org/~rkinyon/Perl6-Role...6/Roles.pm 19:38
I can't gather from the Pod how that class handles method conflicts, though. 19:40
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pyrimidine masak: that module is looking pretty old (2005) 19:53
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doy yeah, that was one of the early prototypes leading up to moose 19:56
masak inneresting. 19:59
felher moritz++ for fixing and testing it right away! 20:00
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tadzik is feather dizzy for you too? 22:07
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masak don't think so. 22:14
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Juerd tadzik: We had an incoming massive DoS attack from spoofed sources. 22:28
phenny Juerd: 29 Feb 01:47Z <[Coke]> tell Juerd feather1 is really slow right now and it's not me!
Juerd: 29 Feb 01:48Z <[Coke]> tell Juerd it was a rogue pugs process, mevermind.
Juerd heh.
tadzik oh 22:29
hehe
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masak feather, under attack? 22:37
Y U HATE ON PERL 6? :(
that's not very civil.
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Juerd masak: Not feather, but another machine on our network. 22:52
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masak oh, ok. 22:54
that's alright, then :P
sorear good * #perl6 23:02
masak sorear! \o/ 23:03
as usual, your arrival coincides quite well with my departure. :)
good night, #perl6
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sorear good night, masak. 23:06
colomon o/ 23:07
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japhb Too bad I missed him. I just commented on a bug in his cycle-finding gist. :-) 23:22
sorear o/ colomon , japhb 23:23
japhb o/ 23:24
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