»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
sorear good * #perl6 00:00
japhb o/ 00:01
00:04 mspaulding left
japhb sorear, BTW, what was the actual use case you were looking to perl6-bench for? (I have a couple use cases of my own that won't be served by the current 'bench' tool, so I'm curious if there is overlap in our needs). 00:08
sorear japhb: making changes to niecza and wondering how muhc slower it makes them 00:09
japhb Yeah, that was one. I can see three ways to do that: 00:12
1. Run all tests against a given version, dump timings. Do your own comparisons.
2. Cache old results; allow comparisons of current run against an old result run. 00:13
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japhb 3. Automate the process of checking out and building particular versions, and do a run of each, compare across those. 00:14
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dalek blets: 6c086df | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (3 files):
polish links and format
 00:30
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dalek blets: 20b8c51 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
simplify header and polish
 00:50
lichtkind good night 00:51
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whiteknight What's the current best way to submit changes to NQP, patch or pull request? 00:52
[Coke] pull request makes it easy. 01:05
is this for nqp-latestS?
whiteknight yes 01:06
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whiteknight Okay, pull request sent. Thanks [Coke] 01:10
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raiph r: macro f { quasi { my $a = 0 } }; f # golf'd 4 masak 01:47
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«Cannot assign into a PMCNULL container␤ in <anon> at /tmp/UisqLGWwy_:1␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/UisqLGWwy_:1␤␤»
raiph r: macro f { quasi { state $a = 0 } }; f # innerestin alternate, this works
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: ( no output )
raiph r: macro f { quasi { state $a = 0; $a++ } }; f # but not this
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«(signal SEGV)»
raiph phenny, let masak know about irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-04-27#i_5503487 01:49
phenny, tell masak irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-04-27#i_5503487 01:50
phenny raiph: I'll pass that on when masak is around.
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dalek osystem: 31f6037 | colomon++ | META.list:
Math::BigInt was made completely pointless once Rakudo got native big ints, so I'm removing it.
 03:04
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melatinini hi, how can i explore the rakudo sockets interface? can't find documentation on io::socket::inet and i don't think it's the same as perl5's... 04:54
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sorear melatinini: trial and error? asking people who have used it? 04:59
melatinini: welcome to #perl6
melatinini haha, ok, fair. i see that the rakudo star that came out today has some new www features :)
sorear: thanks! 05:00
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moritz o/ 05:01
sorear o/ moritz
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masak good actual morning, #perl6 06:59
phenny masak: 01:50Z <raiph> tell masak irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-04-27#i_5503487
masak backlogs
huh. raiph++
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masak melatinini: or you could read the source code: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...et/INET.pm 07:03
probably the easiest way to get into things.
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frettled masak o/ 07:26
Good late morning :D
moritz note that much of the networking code is also in IO/Socket.pm 07:27
masak oh, point. 07:28
tadzik hmm, I think setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH can be fixed outside of zavolaj after all
moritz do makefiles under windows allow ENVVAR=value programtorun syntax? 07:29
tadzik imagine a Configure.pm, which gets require()d by Panda code and something gets run inside. This something sets LD_LIBRARY_PATH, so it stays for subprocesses. Thus when we later do perl6 --target=pir or run tests, the variable stays
I really don't want to fall back to using makefiles
moritz tadzik: what's the state of the setenv branch? 07:30
tadzik moritz: worksforme
no tests
moritz \o/
tadzik and zavolaj eventually works without its help anyway :) 07:31
moritz testing shouldn't be too hard
tadzik cross-platform testing may be tough
moritz %*ENV<foo> = 'bar'; is_run 'say %*ENV<foo>', "bar\n" 07:32
tadzik things like %*ENV<FOO>; shell 'echo $FOO'; are not windows-friendly
well, can work this way, yes
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frettled tadzik: why don't you want to use makefiles? 07:33
masak and what makes you think you can avoid it? :)
moritz cross-platform makefiles are incredibly hard to write
sqlite status: 2 failing tests 07:34
masak IME, it just means you can't use all the nifty syntax of GNU Makefile.
then again, I've just been targeting two platforms.
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moritz one is because 1.90 returns as 1.9, which IMHO isn't wrong 07:35
frettled moritz: cross-platform is incredibly hard to do :)
brrt hey, i was wondering, if 6model is integrated to parrot core
will it completely replace pmc?
masak .oO( cross is incredibly hard to do )
moritz the other one is the "Malformed UTF-8" when getting the second row
frettled but these days, "cross-platform" usually means "works on RedHat AND Debian/Ubuntu"
brrt if so, what will happen to pir?
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moritz brrt: 6model and pmc aren't quite the same abstraction level 07:36
brrt and if so, what will happen to compiling-to-pir?
what i'm wondering is, what abstraction level are they, then?
moritz brrt: 6model is mostly a way to store objects and their meta objects, but doesn't come with any object model
brrt: so there would need to be a minimalistic object model on top of 6model, in which PMCs would be implemented 07:37
brrt so, pmc is an object model
6model is a meta-object model?
moritz brrt: oh, and we want to get rid of PIR even before that. The plan is to compile from PAST or similar to PBC directly
brrt: 6model is not a meta-object model. It's a storage theme which makes it easy-ish to write your own meta-object model 07:38
masak the distinction between objects and meta-objects is deliberately blurred. meta-objects are just objects.
tadzik frettled: cross-platform issues I suppose
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frettled In my experience, avoiding makefiles mostly means that you will end up reinventing them. Badly. I'm not sure why anyone would want to put themselves through that kind of pain. 07:38
masak moritz: up until now, I've considered 6model a small, bootstrapping, MOP-agnostic MOP.
brrt i'm reading the 6model overview pod right now 07:39
6model is implemented in C?
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brrt pretty awesome, actually 07:39
moritz masak: in my understanding, that's not quite accurate. It has an API for a MOP, but not a MOP itself
brrt: yes, 6model is in C
brrt also 07:40
masak moritz: ok.
brrt if you get rid of PIR, what will be the 'smallest' language for parrot? winxed?
i was actually learning PIR a bit :-)
moritz winxed, yes 07:41
brrt ok, i can live with winxed
winxed uses 6model?
moritz no
it only uses parrot
currently only nqp and rakudo use 6model
brrt ... so, let me get this straight 07:42
benabik is going to integrate 6model into core and build pmc on top of 6model
moritz no
brrt is confused
moritz at least in the scope of gsoc, benabik will write an abstract-syntax-tree-to-PBC compiler 07:43
brrt :-)
seems reasonable
moritz he submitted two proposals, one was 6model, one was the compiler/compiler tools thing
brrt the PACT thing
moritz right
brrt so, he is going to implement PACT, which will replace PIR 07:44
moritz well, it's a step towards replacing PIR
brrt i see 07:45
so, big project actually
moritz aye
PIR is not a small language
brrt but, i still don't really understand the - planned - relation between PMC and 6model :-) 07:46
moritz 6model itself doesn't have a notion of classes, inheritance, roles etc. 07:47
brrt PMC does?
moritz that's something you build on top of 6model, as part of the MOP
and PMCs use inheritance, for example
so, to reimplement the current PMCs on top of 6model, you also need a small MOP that provides enough functionality 07:48
brrt ok, i get it
moritz you aren't the first to be confused by it :-)
brrt :-) 07:49
this is more of a parrot discussion
but, does parrot use garbage collecting?
moritz yes
that's one of the few subsystems we haven't been tempted to reimplement in rakudo :-) 07:50
brrt if so, will an integrated 6model-into-parrot use parrots garbage collecting, or the current refcounting?
:-)
moritz note that 6model uses refcounting only for certain things, not for the "normal" objects you use in the programming language 07:51
mostly for things where order of destruction matters
all the "normal" objects are collected by parrot's GC
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brrt i see 07:52
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brrt somewhat relevant for my project, can i assume that whenever 6model is integrated, i can still use pmc's to connect the apache api to? 07:53
moritz sure
brrt awesome
then i could wish for nothing more 07:54
moritz for your project, you must use the status quo
and that means PMCs
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moritz 6model in parrot is still in the future, and it's not clear in which time frame we can expect it to land 07:54
masak it seems it'll require quite a big change in Parrot. 07:55
brrt it seems like a huge project actually
tadzik whiteknight was saying something about "after summer" yesterday 07:56
It'd be lovely, but I find it quite hard to believe
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frettled After summer and before Christmas. 07:58
brrt that'd be quick
masak depends on the Christmas. 08:01
and on the summer.
brrt short summer, maybe 08:04
masak Perl 6: the Long Christmas. 08:06
moritz as weird as it sounds, I think that replacing the object model in parrot is less work than, say, cleaning up the call conventions 08:09
masak possibly. 08:11
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sorear tadzik: you find it hardto believe that 6model in parrot will be after summer? :> 08:18
tadzik sorear: Heh, now that you say it I find it quite possible :) 08:19
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tadzik and again, I'd like to be wrong 08:20
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masak all other things equal, I prefer to be right :P 08:33
brrt being wrong can be so much fun 08:34
especially when you know it
and others don't :-p
masak what is knowledge? knowledge is just sufficiently certain belief. 08:38
moritz or believe is just uncertain knowledge :-) 08:40
brrt i'd go with masak here 08:41
although 'certain' is rather poorly defined 08:42
masak huh? our utterances are equivalent.
"black is just a very dark gray" -- "or gray is just a bright black :-)"
moritz well, we humans tend to have some estimates about how confident we are about our memories 08:43
and if that confidence is high, we call it "knowledge". The threshold isn't fixed.
masak .oO( at least, that what I recall reading )
brrt both stamements state the opposite thing as the 'defined' thing
masak well, neither thing exists if you look closely enough. 08:44
it's just electrochemical signals in wetware.
brrt very true
i was recently wondering 08:46
given that the brain has just one 'namespace' for words, regardless of how many languages you speak 08:47
does the brain have multipe 'compilers' for languages too?
or would it just be one, with different 'routines' per language
moritz masak: I kinda object to that sort of statement. It very much limits the concept of existence to some organizational layers 08:48
sorear brrt: I think it is wrong to say "one 'namespace'" 08:49
moritz brrt: is that true that you have just one 'namespace'?
brrt i recall reading it
in popular media, that is; i havent studied in any detail yet
sorear My mental dictionary absolutely never confuses English/sake with Japanese/sake
moritz I for one don't have any trouble with some words that have the quite different meanings in English and German 08:50
brrt that could be due to different 'construction routines'
moritz but of course that could be context too
brrt well, neither do i - used to when i was a child though
sorear (hi, I just got done reading four books on psycholinguistics)
masak moritz: well, I used it only as a rhethorical point against "either 'knowledge' or 'belief' is more defined than the other".
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moritz masak: ok, that usage I agree with :-) 08:51
masak moritz: of course the interesting bits reside in the emergent phenomena from those signals.
moritz: if you like this conversation, I strongly recommend Hofstadter's "I am a strange loop".
brrt sorear: fun, i read a lot of neurobiology, so i guess that is in many ways the 'other side' of approach 08:52
masak I think jnthn's brain has a single namespace for words, and that's why he makes cross-language puns all the time :P
moritz if there are namespaces, I'm sure there's a lookup facility across them 08:53
brrt something i'd like to study in the future :-) 08:54
masak I like the feeling of some part of my brain doing an instantaneous lookup of some word in some language I haven't used in a long time, all the while the rest of the brain goes "oh, is that so? how do I know that?" :P 08:56
also, somewhat annoying, sending off a lookup for the word for a concept in English, and $brain comes back with correct translations in French, Russian, Esperanto, and Mandarin, but no English. 08:57
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moritz what about Swedish? :-) 08:59
tadzik I sometimes stick English words into Polish sentences, for I cannot recall the Polish word for it 09:01
sometimes it results in abominations like...
phenny: "prerekwizyt"?
phenny tadzik: "prerekwizyt" (en to en, translate.google.com)
tadzik yeah. It's supposed to mimic "prerequisite" 09:02
moritz phenny: pl "prerekwizyt"?
phenny moritz: "prerekwizyt" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
moritz cute :-)
brrt in the netherlands, a lot of people do that
tadzik yeah, it's apparently illegal Polish, according to two online dictionaries 09:03
brrt where you get a dutch version of an english word
the english word is frequently itself imported from france
tadzik phenny: "rekwizyt"?
phenny tadzik: "prop" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
tadzik phenny: en pl "prerequisite"? 09:04
phenny tadzik: "warunek wstępny" (en to pl, translate.google.com)
tadzik yeah, no wonder I say "prerekwizyt"
brrt as an unrelated sidenote, why do many eastern european languages not fit into the latin alphabet? 09:05
tadzik most of them, I think 09:06
if not all of them
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masak moritz: it has happened that I forget words in Swedish but remember them in English. but it's rare. 09:06
brrt most i know, at least
moritz brrt: asked differently, why should they fit? 09:08
the larger the difference in language is, the less likely it is that it maps well to the alphabet
brrt good question...
there are only so many sounds a human can make 09:09
so, pretty much all languages can be captured by alphabet
moritz and latin only used a tiny subset
brrt true
but what most western european languages have done
tadzik "there are only so many sounds a human can make"
clearly, you haven't heard enough Polish :P
brrt very little, in fact :-) 09:10
moritz brrt: well, most of western europe had been under Roman influence
brrt many western european languages have 'fitted' latin to their own speech
tadzik <obligatory brzęczyszczykiewicz video>
moritz like, being conquered by them
masak the Russian alphabet is a really good fit for Russian sounds. if you look at that and then at the stock of other Slavic languages, the ones with adapted Latin alphabets look like they made compromises of different kinds.
brrt true, but germany never has, and it fits comfortably - except for umlauts - into latin
moritz brrt: actually the south of Germany has been under Roman ruling 09:11
brrt not arguing that latin is the end-all alphabet
ah, that is very true
frettled The funny thing is that the alphabet imposes changes on how people speak :) 09:12
brrt maybe english is the exception
moritz en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Limes_G..._2nd_c.png
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Roman_...125_de.svg
masak by the way, who says you need an alphabet at all? 中国人做得很好，尽管只有汉字。
moritz 09:13
frettled masak: well, sometimes you need additional symbols to differentiate meaning
brrt alphabets are usefull especially because they prevent that mess 09:14
masak it's a fairly strong statement to make that hanzi are somehow more of a mess than alphabets.
brrt it is 09:15
masak I think I used to believe that a bit more before learning Chinese. :)
brrt still would like to learn chinese
masak it's just a different factoring of things, that's all. gain some, lose some.
brrt hmm
i guess that human visual pattern recognition is actually good enough to deal with hanzi 09:16
masak frettled: sure. modern Mandarin is generally bisyllabic, compared to the monosyllabic Classical Chinese.
brrt in which case, it is arguably good coding, in a way
frettled The following is based on my recollection of a book I read on code-breaking during WWII: the Japanese navy had an "unbreakable" cipher known as Purple. Japanese uses to some extent the Chinese symbols for written language, and not an alphabet. But when communicating about naval warfare, they ended up spelling things out in their own alphabet to ensure that there were no misunderstandings.
This meant that the US intelligence section intercepting the encrypted messages could recognize warship names from other text, simply by the change in alphabet 09:17
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frettled Pretty cool cryptanalysis, actually. 09:17
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masak I think the two Japanese sets of kana count as syllabaries, not alphabets. </nitpick> 09:18
bonsaikitten frettled: slight misunderstanding of written japanese
frettled bonsaikitten: I may be misunderstanding, but US intelligence sure didn't :)
moritz arnsholt: there's still something wrong with the sqlite stuff
arnsholt: I get different output when under valgrind :/
frettled ISBN 0-684-85932-7
moritz and valgrind still reports invalid reads
bonsaikitten frettled: japanese has three independent alphabets / writing systems 09:19
frettled bonsaikitten: I am aware of that.
bonsaikitten frettled: but yeah, kanji is close enough to chinese that you can read a newspaper and get the general idea from the other language
moritz that's the reason for the big JCK unification in Unicode 09:20
arnsholt moritz: Ah, that's annoying. Especially different results when debugging
masak neither of Japan's three writing systems is an alphabet. romaji is, though :P
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sorear for the purposes of this discussion, are abugidas and abjads alphabets? 09:20
arnsholt Abjad, yes-ish, abuguida, kinda 09:21
That a good enough answer? =)
masak kanji and hanzi are "the same", modulo the PRC's simplifications, and Japan's simplifications. but even after that, meanings have often diverged to different degrees.
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arnsholt But abjads are essentially alphabetic, except for the decision that you don't really care about vowels 09:24
Abuguidas fall in between alphabetic and syllabic
tadzik abjads?
phenny: "obiad"?
phenny tadzik: "dinner" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
arnsholt tadzik: Arabic and hebrew are the primary examples 09:25
tadzik aha
arnsholt Alphabets that only have signs for consonants, not vowels
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arnsholt Of course, that's not entirely true for the modern varieties, but that's the gist of it 09:25
tadzik istr talking about those on the hackathon 09:26
regarding Egyptian names, Imhotep, Amenhotep etc
arnsholt Yeah, hieroglyphs are consonants-only 09:27
I think it was frettled who mentioned that the standard scholarly pronounciation of Egyptian is in no way based on actual reconstructions of the language 09:28
frettled That wasn't me, that was someone else, but I might have said it.
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arnsholt Right. One of the Norwegians I think 09:28
moritz I think it was krunen, but I'm not entirely sure 09:29
frettled That's plausible. 09:30
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tadzik discussion.init: tjs.azalayah.net/new.html shows failures in all the NativeCall-using modules now, because there are no libraries available and the tests fail. Any ideas how to resolve this? I suppose module tests should skip() if the library is not available, I think that's how it works in Perl 5 09:32
moritz tadzik: no, p5 does it differently 09:33
tadzik: p5 modules run a configure script that detects dependencies, and dies if they are not fulfilled
tadzik: and the CPAN tester reports show that as "N/A" or "UNKNOWN" or so instead of PASS or FAIL 09:34
tadzik I see
so that would count as "prereqs ok -- NOT" in emmentaler, right? 09:35
some some Configure.pm support may be necessary
masak "prereqs ok -- NOT" sounds like something Borat would say. 09:36
arnsholt moritz: Do you have your sqlite code on github or something?
moritz arnsholt: yes, in MiniDBI, branch no_dsn 09:38
just let me push the latest fixes
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moritz arnsholt: make && PERL6LIB=lib perl6 t/40-sqlite.t 09:39
arnsholt: that one exhibts the "Malformed UTF-8" or "Unaligned end in UTF-8 string"
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moritz arnsholt: and gist.github.com/2507847 is the script that shows different behavior under valgrind and without it 09:40
arnsholt moritz: Well, that was annoying. But yeah, probably something fishy with zavolaj's pointers 09:53
Don't have time to debug it right now, but I'll look into it 09:55
moritz arnsholt: no hurry
arnsholt: I like our modus operandi: I let you handle all the hard parts :-) 09:56
and in the end I'll say "look, I've written an SQLite backend for MiniDBI" :-)
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arnsholt And I'll say "NativeCall makes calling out to C disgustingly simple" =D 09:58
moritz r: sub f($x) { }; say f.candidates_match(1).elems 10:06
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'f' will never work with no arguments (line 1)␤ Expected: :($x)␤»
moritz r: sub f($x) { }; say &f.candidates_match(1).elems
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«Method 'candidates_match' not found for invocant of class 'Sub'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/whcx9rFHd1:1␤␤»
moritz r: sub f($x) { }; say &f.candidates_matching(1).elems
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz r: sub f($x) { }; say &f.candidates_matching(1, 2).elems
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«0␤»
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moritz arnsholt: I've just pushed a new zavolaj branch, 'check-signature' 10:13
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moritz arnsholt: it doesn't really work, and I'm not sure the approach is right at all, but it's a fun attempt 10:13
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Su-Shee LOL masak: "this tabula is intentionally left rasa" is amazing. :) I think I need this a) as a shirt, b) as a signature and c) had to retweet it :) 11:45
tadzik what does that mean?
Su-Shee tadzik: "making tabula rasa" -> clean slate, empty the table 11:46
moritz "tabula rasa" means, literally, "table empty" (empty table)
Su-Shee tadzik: "start new, over" etc.
tadzik hah
moritz clean slate would be an idiomatic translation, ye
s
Su-Shee -is I added that accidently. 11:47
anyways. it's very funny. :)
masak :) 11:48
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masak I also like the first scene of the pilot of "Dollhouse", where this line appears: "Have you ever tried to clean an actual slate?" 11:49
Dollhouse. watch it.
jnthn afternoon, #perl6
colomon loved that show
o/
moritz \o 11:50
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Su-Shee god I wish they hadn't cancled it.. 11:51
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colomon eh, at least it got two seasons and a decent chance to wrap up its stories. (I'm still scared by Firefly.) 11:54
Su-Shee god I wish they hadn't cancled it, too :)
masak can't they, theoretically, un-cancel Firefly?
Su-Shee they could. 11:55
whedon works with the same range of actors anyways.
masak range? .oO( Jayne .. River ) 11:56
moritz unless tadzik++'s sequel preventer kills the characters, of course :-)
Su-Shee moritz: alan tudik (alpha and I forgot his name in firefly)
and she who played in angel and in dollhouse whose name is on the tip of my tongue.. 11:58
masak Su-Shee: Wash
Su-Shee eliza dushu of course and caiptn firefly who played the evil in buffy.
masak: yes!
eliza dushku I think. 11:59
tadzik moritz: shh, that's a secret project!
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tadzik at least officially 12:01
fglock o/ 12:02
Su-Shee haha. of course..
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joss_Whedon large table of actors in the whedonverse ;)
colomon tadzik: while a sequel preventer would be nice, a remake preventer would be much more useful, IMO. ;)
tadzik colomon: nice idea for a sequel
err, wait... 12:03
colomon tadzik: you need to refresh the Emmentaler page. I fixed one project last night and removed another one from the ecosystem. ;) 12:05
tadzik colomon: I will after $work
is ABC fixed? 12:06
moritz no, Testing
I wanted to fix it, and found it already fixed :-)
colomon ;)
moritz ABC requires one or two fixes from jnthn++ I'm afraid
tadzik good :) 12:07
moritz rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=112624 and rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=112626
colomon moritz++ 12:08
jnthn is now mostly repaired and should be able to look at them soonish 12:10
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colomon ooo, I see Bailador has also gone all green sometime in the last 24 hours. ;) 12:13
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moritz yes, because we've changed HTTP::Easy to my fork, which has the advantage of working :-) 12:14
colomon fork++
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tadzik yeah, it works now, for fork's sake :) 12:32
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[Coke] prerekwizyt haderach! 12:48
(catching up)
tadzik what
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moritz Juerd: fwiw I'm pondering a p6ized replacement for MiniDBI 12:51
[Coke] your made up word reminded me of dune's "kwisatz haderach". 12:52
mikec_ dune!
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moritz dude! 12:56
[Coke] nude! 12:58
... i don't like where this is going.
moritz rude? 12:59
[Coke] ah, that's better. 13:00
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PerlJam food 13:02
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moritz when I create my 'DBIish' fork of MiniDBI, what should I name the DBD modules? 13:21
DBDish?
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PerlJam what's "DBIish" mean? 13:21
moritz well, it's like, DBI-ish
:-) 13:22
MiniDBI tries to be p5 DBI compatible as much as possible
and I don't want to deviate from that without first discussing it with mberends
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PerlJam and DBIish is a perl6 reimagining? 13:22
moritz right
PerlJam awesome 13:23
mikec cool
moritz well, it's not yet awesome. It's not at all yet
just planning
mikec is interested
moritz well, I have a bit of code already in a MiniDBI branch
PerlJam moritz: how about DBI6 and DBD6 ;)
or DBIvi DBDvi 13:24
moritz PerlJam: I don't think we're ready for those big names yet
Su-Shee moritz: DBIchen ;)
moritz Su-Shee: :-)
Su-Shee or DBIje to honor mberends. ;) 13:25
arnsholt moritz: Isn't whoever made DBI (his name escapes me ATM) also doing something along those lines? 13:26
Inspired by ODBC or something IIRC
moritz arnsholt: tim bunce worked a bit on DBDI, yes
arnsholt Tim Bunce, right
moritz arnsholt: and he uses ODBC as the internal API between DBI and DBDs
arnsholt: I don't want that level of engineering (yet?). I want something as simple as DBI, but mor 6ish 13:27
*more
PerlJam moritz: a very worthy goal 13:28
Su-Shee
.oO(DBItje ;)
 13:29
tadzik how about DBIesque? 13:30
PerlJam too long 13:31
moritz tadzik: I like the name, but I don't want to type it repeatedly :-)
tadzik :)
IDB?
PerlJam DBIx ;->
tadzik erm, IBD
flussence DBS, for "DBI Bikeshed"
flussence ducks
tadzik but then DBD is hard
Su-Shee DBItti :)
moritz goes with DBIsh and DBDish for now
PerlJam moritz: good idea ;) 13:32
tadzik maybe DBIish, to be consistent?
moritz erm, yes
masak +1
arnsholt DBJ and DBE? =) 13:33
moritz I also considered 'MesoDBI', but "meso" is usually smaller than mini
PerlJam mu? 13:34
Su-Shee nanoDBI ;)
moritz mu/micro and nano are also smaller than mini
and I didn't like CentiDBI or DeciDBI :-)
masak CentiDBI -- but I suggested that already, and I kinda like DBIish :)
grondilu How do I get a list of routines in a module?
masak grondilu: a module only owns its "our"-scoped routines.
PerlJam well, size isn't the important consideration anyway, it's the shift fomr perl5think to perl6think 13:35
masak grondilu: but if you're fine with that, just access its stash with, hm, .WHO
PerlJam s/fomr/from/ # weird
grondilu r: use Test; say Test.WHO
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«().hash␤»
grondilu r: use Test; say Test.WHO.keys
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«␤»
moritz r: module A { our sub b() { } }; say A::.keys 13:36
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«&b␤»
moritz r: module A { our sub b() { } }; say A.WHO.keys
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«&b␤»
grondilu Isn't there a dummy module I could use to show you something about using modules?
Oh ok using it like this will do 13:37
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JimmyZ DBI::Simple 13:37
grondilu r: use DBI::Simple; say DBI::Simple.WHO.keys
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find DBI::Simple in any of: /home/p6eval/.perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst1/lib/parrot/4.3.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib, .␤»
tadzik we have a tendency for naming our modules ::Simple, ::Tiny, Mini* and so 13:38
and they often outgrow their names :)
JimmyZ or DBI::easy :)
grondilu r: use DBI::Simple; say ::Simple.WHO.keys
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find DBI::Simple in any of: /home/p6eval/.perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst1/lib/parrot/4.3.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib, .␤»
grondilu I don't get it
moritz JSON::Tiny is still as minimalistic as possible
grondilu: I don't think JimmyZ answered you
grondilu r: use JSON::Tiny; say JSON::Tiny.WHO.keys
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find JSON::Tiny in any of: /home/p6eval/.perl6/lib, /home/p6eval/nom-inst1/lib/parrot/4.3.0-devel/languages/perl6/lib, .␤»
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moritz str: use JSON::Tiny; say JSON::Tiny.WHO.keys 13:39
star: use JSON::Tiny; say JSON::Tiny.WHO.keys
p6eval star 2012.04: OUTPUT«Actions Grammar␤»
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JimmyZ DBI::Tiny ? 13:39
moritz now, I'm building something bigger than MiniDBI 13:40
but Tiny < Mini
PerlJam moritz: how is it bigger?
JimmyZ I'm +1 to DBI::Simple
Simple version of DBI
tadzik I don't think it's adequate
moritz PerlJam: well, at least I don't want to limit myself to staying smaller than MiniDBI 13:41
tadzik afaiu it won't neceserilly be simplier :)
moritz tadzik is right
it's not about simpler, it's about more idiomatic
tadzik IdioDBI? :P
PerlJam moritz: Just call it DBI and let the future sort it out
tadzik PerlJam++ 13:42
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JimmyZ +1 to PerlJam too 13:42
moritz will think about it on his way home
masak yeah, DBI is fine too.
JimmyZ any way, we needs DBI
or DBI::Link 13:43
tadzik BDI: BataDase Interface
PerlJam In a way, even the Perl5 DBI is misnamed. It's not about interfacing to just /any/ database, but primarily relational databases. 13:44
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arnsholt To be fair, relational has been a pretty fair assumption until recently 13:45
PerlJam fair assumption where?
grondilu BTW is there anything for BerkeleyDB in Perl6? 13:46
arnsholt I think there's a Berkeley module in core, been there forever IIRC
PerlJam: I've been assuming relational when people have talked about databases at least 13:47
I mean, the rise of key-value stores is pretty recent, and relational has been dominant since the fall of structured DBs sometime in the 70s
masak grondilu: maybe there should be. 13:48
tadzik grondilu: I don't think so
grondilu: you can add it to Most Wanted list, or just write it yourself :)
masak arnsholt: basically, Codd's idea was revolutionary and carried us all the way from the 70s until now. 13:49
PerlJam arnsholt: key-value stores were around in the 1970s too, they were just much slower :)
masak right, noSQL is nothing new, really. just the name is new and hot.
PerlJam I think were in 2 round of history rpeating itself wrt databases
maybe round 3, but my memory isn't that long
masak which is fine.
people need to question the fundamentals sometimes.
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PerlJam DBI sort of assumes an SQL abstraction. Perl 6 has a good chance of making that very pluggable. 13:52
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grondilu also, isn't the distribution of rakudo-star kind of weird? I mean, it's supposed to be a .tar.gz file, and yet once we untar it and do a "make", it still downloads the modules. I don't have a regular internet access so this is not much convenient for me :( 13:55
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masak and you're talking to us... how? :P 13:56
tadzik the worst thing about rakudo-star imho is the fact that you can't really make DESTDIR=foo install to package it nicely
grondilu is using a public internet access 13:57
jnthn Huh, I thought the modules were included in the rakudo-star?
grondilu doesn't seem so.
unless it is specific to 2012.04.1? 13:58
tadzik I don't think so
masak I'm a bit surprised at this too.
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masak I thought the modules literally were packaged with Rakudo Star. 13:59
grondilu Well, maybe I just missed something
jnthn Yeah, the release cand I built yesterday has a modules directory with a bunch of modules
masak oh phew 14:00
grondilu ah ok. What I did download was 'rakudo-star-c92df22.tar.gz' 14:01
instead of 'rakudo-star-2012.04.tar.gz'
jnthn Oh...as in, the contents of the star repo?
tadzik oh, right
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jnthn Yeah, the repo contains the things to build the relesae. 14:01
tadzik so apparently tagging did confuse users
colomon OOOOO, I can haz internetz!
masak today's autopun: www.google.com/search?q=zerg+rush 14:02
PerlJam grondilu's difficulty is good evidence that star releases should *NOT* be tagged I think 14:03
colomon is watching his three-year-old get a tennis "lesson" 14:04
masak ...by Syrio Forel! :D 14:07
[Coke] PerlJam: I disagree. 14:08
how did grondilu find that tag?
he probably hit "download as tar.gz" - that button is always there. 14:09
grondilu yes
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masak ah. [Coke]++ 14:09
[Coke] yah, rakudo-star-c92df22.tar.gz isn't a tagged copy, either. it's "whatever was master at the time."
I do note that rakudo-star-2012.04.tar.gz doesn't have a description. 14:10
that doesn't help.
grondilu I just clicked the big button 'download as tar.gz' on github 14:11
[Coke] yup, that's a github thing.
Probably worth opening github ticket to see if we (or they) can add some explanatory text. 14:13
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[Coke] (or admin options to hide those buttons) 14:13
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Juerd moritz: Could you give an example of p6ized DBI calling? 14:16
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grondilu I've just compiled rakudo and now I'm running 'make install' and it takes much longer than it used to. Seems like it is retrieving some modules. That's new. 14:21
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grondilu Ahhhh ignore that ^ 14:22
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moritz Juerd: gist.github.com/2509680 14:24
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masak \o/ # .fetchrow 14:25
hm, when would I want to use the 'while' thingy rather than the 'for' thingy? :) 14:26
[Coke] r: say (7**(e-1/e)-9)*pi**2 # jenny's constant xkcd++
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«867.530902863768␤»
colomon wow, Niecza complains loudly about t/spec/S02-magicals/env.t 14:27
Insecure $ENV{PATH} while running with -t switch at t/fudgeandrun line 18.
oh, wait, that was a typo on my part
never mind
moritz masak: if you don't exhaust the iterator, you might need to call .finish on the statement handle yourself
masak [Coke]: I read that xkcd comic, but I have no idea what Jenny's constant is. 14:28
moritz: ah, point.
PerlJam masak: 8675309
moritz masak: so if you abort earlier, you might like the while-version better
masak oh, it's a song about a phone number. I see. 14:29
moritz: the situation feels somewhat analogous to file IO.
(where we use `for` in Perl 6)
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masak also, "[I've had enough of this 137 crap]" made me smile. :) 14:31
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Juerd moritz: That's nice but please consider having a look at DBIx::Simple's method names. A few things: "all" isn't necessarily true, as it only returns the *remaining* ones. And "fetch" is lame; duh, of course we're fetching; what else would we do? :) 14:33
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Juerd moritz: With DBIx::Simple I just named the methods after whatever they return. 14:34
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PerlJam grondilu: how did you get to the download button for rakudo-star? What led you to the github repo in the first place? 14:36
masak +1 on dropping 'fetch_'
it's like feeling the need to call get methods .getSomething
PerlJam [Coke]: I wonder if we shouldn't make a "project page" on github for R* and advertise that.
tadzik ooooh, coool 14:38
moritz++
moritz: how about rows being a lazy list or such?
grondilu PerlJam: I just went to github.com/rakudo/star/downloads with my web browser and clicked to the button 14:39
moritz tadzik: that's dangerous
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PerlJam grondilu: and where did you get that URL from? the announcement? 14:39
moritz tadzik: because most C APIs progress row by row
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grondilu PerlJam: sorry I don't remember 14:39
moritz tadzik: and once you've progressed to the next row, you can't access columns from the previous one 14:40
grondilu Yes I think it was in the announcement.
tadzik I see
moritz tadzik: so you need to fetch all columns from a row inside the driver just for safety
jnthn Be careful with .rows
tadzik aye 14:41
jnthn .elems, .chars, .bytes etc all return *counts*.
tadzik good point
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jnthn Agree "fetch" in the name feels like a kinda false minima though when it coems to naming. 14:42
[Coke] so, if it's coming from the announcement, we can just give them the full url, not the /downloads one. 14:43
TimToady the brain has at least two well-known but separate namespaces, one for nouns, and a different one for verbs 14:45
moritz do all natural languages have the distinction between verbs and nouns? 14:46
PerlJam with laziness, why not my @results = $stmt.execute(42); # ?
TimToady I believe so
jnthn tends to use noun-y names for methods for "I have this right to hand" and verby ones for "I'll have to do some work..." 14:47
moritz PerlJam: hm, good question
huf but it's fairly situational, we verb nouns and noun verbs all the time
moritz PerlJam: which, of course, leads to the question if we can't unify it with prepare in a nice way, and get rid of the statement handle abstraction entirely 14:48
TimToady but we know this because you get different kinds of aphasias depending on which part of the brain you damage 14:49
tadzik well, there's .do()
TimToady it's not something you derive by introspection
moritz btw MiniDBI does have .rows, which returns the count of affected rows by the last statement 14:50
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moritz which is usually interesting for things like INSERT, UPDATE or DELETE statements 14:50
PerlJam does "my @foo = mumble" constrain the methods available on @foo? i.e., could mumble return some object thingy that happens to do Positional, but also some other roles and would the methods of those other roles be preserved in @foo or would one need to use binding to keep them? 14:55
moritz PerlJam: my @foo = ...; always coerces the LHS to an Array
you'd need binding for any other type 14:56
PerlJam that's what I thought.
moritz otherwise my @foo = 1, 2, 3; would put a Parcel into @foo, which would then be immutable
jnthn It's not that it coerces it, so much as it STOREs the RHS in the array container.
TimToady the Latin alphabet can't even represent all the sounds of English, let alone other languages, hence all the digraphs in both consonant and vowel space 14:57
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PerlJam I was just thinking about DBIish roles for result sets and how they would be applied or used if it were my @results = $stmt.execute(42) 14:57
TimToady though it's arguably a good 2-level-ish huffman coding
moritz PerlJam: DBIx::Class has this mechanism that a ->search call returns an iterator in item context, and returns all elements in list context. They consider it a complete nightmare 14:59
PerlJam: I'd rather not repeat that kind of mistake
rather be a bit more explicit, than implicitly magical and backfiring
TimToady wants a shirt that says: "Professional driver on closed course. Do not attempt."
PerlJam moritz: indeed. 15:00
TimToady or maybe "Professional language designer on closed course. Do not attempt." would be more appropriate :)
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masak :P 15:01
masak is impressed by the non-verbal teaching of verb forms over at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Conjugac...correr.png 15:02
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PerlJam moritz: DBIish has a better substrate in Perl 6 than DBIx::Class does in Perl 5. I mean, we get handy things like Parcels and Captures and Cursors from the language already :) 15:02
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PerlJam
.oO( How many other people are resisting the Wizard of Oz reflex? )
 15:04
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[Coke] on a closed spacetime loop. 15:06
TimToady Do not redesign. 15:09
moritz says the language redesigner :-) 15:10
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masak "Professional language redesigner on a closed spacetime loop. Do not attempt." 15:10
PerlJam masak: I don't understand what the time of day has to do with conjugation in those pictures :) 15:11
moritz PerlJam: it's supposed to show the tenses 15:12
morning = past, midday = present, evening = future
masak PerlJam: the sun is up when the speaker tells the listener about the act. the positions of the sun and the moon then give clues as to whether the act described takes part in the past, present, or future. 15:13
jnthn It would be neat if there was a language where you had to conjugate differently in the morning though. 15:15
Maybe the morning conjugations are simpler, due to lack of coffee consumption, or something.
PerlJam My trailing smiley was meant as a "deliberate nonunderstanding" marker
moritz jnthn: there's this nice sketch from Loriot about a woman who learns for her yodel diploma
jnthn: and she has to learn the lyrics, and at some point she mixes up some words, and the teach says "no, that would be second future at dawn" :-) 15:16
jnthn :)
masak l'autopun: twitter.com/kazarnowicz/status/1958...4899022848 15:17
moritz www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG6RyQCggdI # German only, I'm afraid
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colomon n: say 'aa' ~~ /:i aA/ 15:19
p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(2) text(aa) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
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colomon n: my $a = 'aA'; say 'aa' ~~ /:i $a/ 15:20
p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Match()␤»
colomon n: my $a = 'aa'; say 'aa' ~~ /$a/
p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(2) text(aa) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
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dalek ast: 5be6e89 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S05-modifier/ignorecase.t:
Fudge new test for Niecza.
 15:21
PerlJam moritz: where's the google translate button when you need it?!? 15:22
masak decommutes 15:23
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sergot hi o/ 15:30
moritz \o sergot 15:31
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moritz r: role R { has $.x }; class A does R { }; say A.new(x => 42).x 15:35
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«42␤»
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moritz roles++ 16:07
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moritz 4 files changed, 19 insertions(+), 101 deletions(-) 16:16
I like such patches :-)
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moritz oh dammit 16:19
I pushed to the wrong repo
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timotimo no worries, you should have a reflog of it and can push -f 16:20
moritz that's what I'm doing now 16:21
it's just what I usually try to avoid
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timotimo be glad you're not on mercurial, doing such recoveries there is probably much, much messier 16:22
i remember when i was told to just get a new clone of upstream to get rid of commits i made to the wrong branch
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moritz github.com/perl6/DBIish 16:51
fglock perl is now in the "list of languages that compile to JavaScript": github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script...pile-to-JS
moritz \o/ 16:54
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[Coke] fglock: "make" in the top level fails: 17:35
find: `t5/*.t': No such file or directory
fglock looking 17:36
[Coke]: the Makefile was added to test perl5-to-perl6 compilation, that doesn't work yet - see the instructions in "README-perlito5" instead 17:38
[Coke] do you mean `find t5 -name "*.t"` ?
fglock the tests are now in t5/*/*.t (because there are more tests) 17:40
this works if you build perlito5.js: prove -r -e 'node perlito5.js -I./src5/lib -Bjs' t5
build perlito5.js with this command: perl -Ilib5 perlito5.pl -I./src5/lib -Cjs src5/util/perlito5.pl > perlito5.js 17:41
[Coke] the line in the readme has some failures, ala:
*** t5/01-perlito/24-strict.t
Can't locate object method "exp_stmts" via package "Perlito5::Grammar" (perhaps you forgot to load "Perlito5::Grammar"?) at x line 6.
[Coke] will play more later. danke. 17:42
dalek blets: f79d992 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (3 files):
undo silly dounle and triple rule for link names === is #equal-equal-equal again
 17:43
fglock looking
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fglock the README is wrong, fixing 17:44
masak home 17:45
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[Coke] fglock: ok, now if I run that, I get a lot of output that looks like perl5, not TAP. 17:51
fglock [Coke]: this seems to work: $ prove -r -e 'perl -Ilib5 perlito5.pl -I./src5/lib ' t5 17:52
note this is perl5-to-perl5; for perl5-to-js you need to compile perlito5.js 17:53
I'll update the README
[Coke] fglock: I'm just cut and pasting the first line into the shell. the readme makes it sound like that runs tests. 17:54
fglock (updated) 17:55
[Coke] fglock: ah, much nicer, thanks!
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[Coke] fglock: gist.github.com/2511283 test failures, not sure if these are known. 17:56
fglock yes, perl5-to-5 needs some fixing, the node.js backend works better atm 17:57
the "release" version should pass all tests, this is "dev" 17:58
but dev is more fun
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gfldex am i doing something silly or is this a bug? gist.github.com/2511334 17:59
[Coke] p6: gist.github.com/2511334 18:00
p6eval rakudo 256e1d: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤ in sub somesub at /tmp/HwMYepvlnl:3␤ in sub METAOP_HYPER_CALL at src/gen/CORE.setting:10701␤ in method postcircumfix:<( )> at /tmp/HwMYepvlnl:12␤ in <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:815␤ in any <anon> …
..niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Unsupported use of | with sigil; nowadays please use | without sigil at /tmp/LGI4MhkOWQ line 10:␤------> method postcircumfix:<( )>($self: |$c⏏) {␤ $self is declared but not used at /tmp/LGI4MhkOWQ line 10:␤…
..pugs: OUTPUT«*** Cannot cast from VObject (MkObject {objType = (mkType "Foo"), objAttrs = <Hash:0xf6fdb119>, objOpaque = Nothing, objId = MkObjectId {unObjectId = 3}}) to VCode (VCode)␤ at /tmp/F3IP3ojSqA line 19, column 1-7␤»
gfldex n: gist.github.com/2511366 18:02
p6eval niecza v16-23-gaa61ed5: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $self is declared but not used at /tmp/EndlV58oNV line 10:␤------> method postcircumfix:<( )>(⏏$self: |c) {␤␤i haz a sub␤»
gfldex niecza++
gfldex files rakudobug 18:03
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timotimo oooh, you can give gist urls, that's sweet! 18:06
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masak I think moritz++ implemented that. 18:17
diakopter that was me 18:18
originally, and the first fix iteration, at least. 18:19
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masak diakopter++ 18:21
moritz can keep his karma point. he's probably done something I haven't ++'ed him for ;)
fglock README-perlito5 should be correct now 18:24
masak++ # distributing good karma 18:25
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masak read that as 'disturbingly good karma' :) 18:29
[Coke] whyforno perlito dalek updates?
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fglock [Coke]: do you want a commit bit? what is your github name? 18:32
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fglock (added coke to Perlito) 18:35
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moritz fglock: do you want to have perlito commits announced in here? 18:37
fglock: if so, follow the instructions in github.com/perl6/mu/blob/master/mi...k-push.txt
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fglock you know it can be a bit off topic sometimes - perlito5 is about perl5, not perl6 18:38
moritz I wouldn't mind
fglock ok - I'll add it, you can remove later if it is too noisy
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dalek kudo/nom: dda5b09 | moritz++ | src/core/Mu.pm:
hide some dispatchers from backtraces
 18:39
fglock moritz: want a commit bit? I seem to be in a commit bit mood today 18:40
moritz fglock: yes, can't hurt :-)
(github username moritz)
[Coke] fglock: Danke. 18:41
fglock moritz: added
moritz fglock: thanks
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dalek Iish: 26983c0 | moritz++ | lib/DBDish/SQLite.pm6:
[sqlite] implement disconnect method
 18:41
fglock masak: I've added you to Perlito in github 18:42
dalek rlito: 059f9af | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | README-perlito5:
Perlito5 - fix README instructions
 18:44
rlito: e518f94 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (2 files):
Perlito5 - fix README instructions; rebuild
rlito: 1e2d817 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | README-perlito5:
Perlito5 - move node.js README instructions up
fglock yay
masak fglock: hey, thanks! :) 18:45
not sure I'll have lots of time to hack on it, but good to have a commitbit, I guess.
fglock all tuits are round 18:47
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dalek Iish: ecdc343 | moritz++ | lib/DBDish (2 files):
[Pg] make fetching of hashes a "bit" simpler
 18:51
moritz this commit illustrates how much more mature and usable rakudo is today
compared to what mberends++ and friends had to write some years ago
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dalek Iish: 37d1e6e | moritz++ | / (2 files):
update credits
 18:55
sorear good * #perl6 18:56
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moritz \o sorear 18:57
fglock o/
sorear: I've added you to Perlito in github 18:59
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sorear fglock: hmm? why> 19:05
moritz fishing for contributors :-)
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PerlJam sorear: because you're *Awesome*. :) 19:05
dalek rlito: 7a5d100 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | TODO-perlito5:
Perlito5 - perl5: document emitter bug (significant parenthesis)
 19:06
fglock PerlJam: want a commit bit? 19:07
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fglock sorear: because it's fun 19:07
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PerlJam fglock: when I'm ready to actually contribute, sure. 19:07
fglock: you could give me one right now, but I don't think I'd use it much (or at all) 19:08
fglock I think there are some cool things that could be done, I don't have time to do everything I'd like
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fglock PerlJam: I can't see you in github, what is your name there? 19:10
PerlJam fglock: perlpilot 19:12
fglock done :) 19:13
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dalek rlito: f642820 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (5 files):
Perlito5 - perl5: fix 2 tests
 19:27
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dalek Iish: c64574a | moritz++ | / (4 files):
Add fetchrow-AoH, fetchrow-HoA and mock-test them
 19:36
masak names in commit comment don't match names in patch. 19:37
also, there's gotta be more memorable names than that :P 19:38
why not just fetchall-arrays and fetchall-hashes?
moritz what would 'fetchall-hashes' return? 19:44
jnthn
.oO( .all-the-hashes )
moritz an array of hashes? or a hash of arrays?
masak .fetchall-as-hash? 19:45
I just think HoA looks unsightly.
moritz yes, but what would .fetchall-as-hash return?
masak a hash. 19:47
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dalek Iish: 1499f8d | moritz++ | / (2 files):
rename methods, masak++

they are now called fetchall-array and fetchall-hash		 19:55
masak \o/
fglock jnthn: do you want a commit bit for Perlito? 19:57
masak what, you ask him but not the rest of us? :P 19:58
[Coke] masak: please, you know you just file bug reports, anyway.
masak granted. 19:59
fglock: so, assuming I find one or two bugs in Perlito... where do I send my spam^Wreports? 20:00
jnthn fglock: Can't promise I'll find particularly many tuits to contribute to it, but sure, can't hurt to have one. 20:01
fglock masak: because you already have one commit bit (I'm only giving one commit bit, if you want more you have to do it yourself) 20:02
masak fglock: I was kidding. but you gave all the rest of us commit bits without asking... :P 20:03
fglock jnthn: done
jnthn fglock: Thanks :)
fglock I thought it was more polite to ask first :P
masak: I usually add the bugs to TODO-perlito5 20:07
masak how... manual. :) 20:08
fglock yes, very low-tech 20:09
this makes it easier to group problems together and helps minimize the special cases 20:13
masak inneresting.
fglock special cases make the code big - not good for the browser 20:14
masak well, in here people seem concerned about not duplicating code paths, but not about code size per se. 20:17
moritz well, I am :-) 20:19
masak well, the perennial question is "why don't you, like, split the setting into multiple parts?"
that's implicitly about code size, I guess.
moritz anyway, I love roles. 20:23
timotimo understandably 20:24
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uvtc Just built R* 2012.04. Runs scripts faster than before. Quick startup. 20:28
timotimo is that the startup bonus from the bs branch or even more awesome optimisations? 20:29
uvtc Not familiar with the "bs" branch. 20:30
timotimo "bounded serialisation", it moved lots of startup time to the compile time of the interpreter itself by implementing serialisation of some bounded sort 20:32
jnthn Startup time improvements came from the "bs" work, for sure.
We still have room for improvement. 20:33
fwiw, it actually cut down compile time of CORE.setting as well as improving startup time.
So it was a win both for pre-compilation performance and startup performance.
uvtc For some reason the R* README doesn't mention that you need git installed to build R*. (BTW, on older Debian-based distros it was the "git-core" package. Now the package is just named "git".) 20:35
Ah. Yes. I brought up something related 17 days ago. It used to say subversion was a requirement. tadzik++ removed it, but "git" was not added to take its place. 20:38
moritz uvtc: I haven't forgotton about your proposal to reduce the output from the build; just haven't got aound to it 20:40
uvtc moritz, Cool. Thanks. I didn't want to ask you about it, because I can see things have been busy with the R* release, and also I think I saw that you're working at a breakneck page to get sqlite working. :) 20:41
s/page/pace/
moritz uvtc: arnsholt++ does all the heavy work for calling C functions, I just throw examples at him that don't work :-) 20:42
uvtc If I want to make a minor tweak to github.com/rakudo/star and then submit a pull-request for it, should I create a branch for that, or just make my changes to master? 20:44
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moritz uvtc: a branch is generally safer 20:46
uvtc Whoops, sorry, nm, found github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Frew...d-Workflow
(which recommends creating a separate branch)
lichtkind uvtc: cheers 20:53
uvtc lichtkind, hi
lichtkind uvtc: seen recent changes? 20:54
uvtc lichtkind, Yes, lots of commits. I haven't been reading the Tablets recently though. Oh, I wanted to ask you: if I have a "term" I'd like added to the glossary, should I create an issue for that? 20:55
lichtkind uvtc: why no just insert it rightaway, which is it? 20:57
uvtc: i added also lots where now by roughly 80, not all answered
uvtc lichtkind, "reify"
lichtkind, Oh, I see. You've got some terms in there without a definition. 20:58
lichtkind uvtc: thats what i ment with not answered 21:00
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lichtkind uvtc: but i filled in just yesterday 5, were getting there 21:01
uvtc: and to reify i read that often but dont have slightest clue
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uvtc If only this channel had a resident linguist... 21:02
lichtkind uvtc: more important that lot of commits i have now clear picture what i want to have where and how to format things also made friends with markdown
uvtc lichtkind, nice. :)
lichtkind uvtc: his name is larry
uvtc lichtkind, I know. Should've added a `;)`. 21:03
lichtkind uvtc: so will you add it? 21:04
dalek blets: 415a004 | (John Gabriele)++ | docs/appendix-g-glossary.txt:
added "reify" to glossary
 21:08
lichtkind uvtc: good you want to titlecase terms? 21:11
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uvtc lichtkind, Oh shoot. Sorry, no. I saw "Regex" capitalized, and thought that was your convention. No, I prefer lowercase. Will fix both. 21:12
dalek blets: c18b563 | (John Gabriele)++ | docs/appendix-g-glossary.txt:
whoops - switch to lowercase
 21:13
lichtkind uvtc: its fine i can fix it i just ask how we set rule 21:14
one of the few thins im not decided
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lichtkind because officially in english names are uppercase 21:14
question is what we count as name
uvtc lichtkind, only proper nouns (like particular names of people, places, and things) get capitalized. 21:16
lichtkind uvtc: but is regex a name of a thing? 21:20
jnthn There's a type called Regex. 21:21
If you specifically mean that type name, Regex is probably right.
If talking about them in general, "regex"
masak yes. we do the same for 'Str' and 'string', 'Int' and 'integer', 'Block' and 'block'... 21:23
moritz but when you meet mr. Regex, be sure to capitalize him properly
uvtc Ok, hope I did this correctly. Added a pull-request to rakudo/star. 21:24
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lichtkind jnthn: the type we spelled of course uc it was just about the term 21:25
jnthn moritz: Becuase if you don't, you get capital punishment?
lichtkind uvtc: it looks good
uvtc Gotsta go. o/
lichtkind hahah
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[Coke] (star, git) git is only required if you're creating a star release, not if you're a user, no? 21:35
timotimo don't you need it to check out parrot and nqp or something?
lichtkind rakudo doesnt know "\a" 21:36
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masak that rings a bell... 21:37
timotimo i don't think it does
masak lichtkind: if the spec doesn't mention "\a", its silence could be taken as "do like Perl 5 does", i.e. support "\a".
'night, #perl6 21:38
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lichtkind good night 21:41
21:41 FACEFOX joined
lichtkind masak last time i checked spec had \a 21:41
[Coke] looks like rakudo-2012.04.1/ (star) contains a copy of parrot. 21:44
has all of: 21:45
nqp-2012.04.1parrot-4.3.0rakudo-2012.04.1
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lichtkind TimToady: is \in "" and regex the same? 22:21
dalek blets: 9082169 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
hope to make more sense of escape seqences
 22:22
jnthn lichtkind: You mean, do they use the same escape sequences?
lichtkind TimToady: sorry i mant backsalsh n
jnthn oh :)
lichtkind ma chat client ate that i suppose 22:23
\n
no my fault
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jnthn lichtkind: I suspect the difference may be that \n in a string has to commit to what it emits (platform wise) 22:29
Whereas \n in a regex may match various options.
I guess S05 has some language on exactly what \n does in regexes.
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lichtkind jnthn: im currently reading s05 but its a bit confusing 22:30
jnthn yeah, here
C<\n> now matches a logical (platform independent) newline, not just C<\x0a>.
See TR18 section 1.6 for a list of logical newlines.
lichtkind jnthn: this im currently reading too
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lichtkind just added confusion :) 22:30
jnthn lichtkind: unicode.org/reports/tr18/tr18-14.ht...Boundaries 22:31
I wonder if we should consider \r\n as a single grapheme under NFG... 22:32
lichtkind jnthn: had the page, the content is the problem :) 22:33
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jnthn ;-) 22:34
lichtkind: Try more beer.
22:34 geekosaur left
lichtkind jnthn: i had just a mouth full and thats anough, im currently und wheat grass juice - very healthy 22:34
[Coke] rakudo star buglet - "make rakudo-spectest" tries to run git pull on the exported t/spec 22:35
jnthn: I am trying "shock top lemon shandy". 22:36
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jnthn [Coke]: Please file an issue for the buglet, if you have chance. 22:41
jnthn -> sleep, given I got none at all last night...
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[Coke] jnthn: star doesn't accept issues. rakudobug it? 22:44
sorear colomon: around?
colomon yes
what's up? 22:45
sorear what do people expect fail to do
dalek blets: 5841485 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix-a-index.txt:
clearify tilde op
colomon sorear: honestly, I'm completely unclear on what it does differently from die, in practical terms. 22:46
give me a second to dig up source
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dalek rlito: 26ef33e | coke++ | README:
fix grammar-o
 22:46
colomon things like 22:47
fail if !@lines;
(that's Damian's code)
[Coke] jnthn: done. 22:48
sorear I think the idea of fail is that it's supposed to allow parallel operations to continue as if nothing happened, so that your hyper-maps can run to competion and return meaningless results
colomon sorear: naive understanding of it is it is basically shorthand for 22:49
return Failure "blah"
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sorear colomon: failure is a very magical type which does a number of mutually contradictory things 22:51
colomon sorear: I don't doubt it.
sorear which subset of the contradictory things do perl 6 programmers rely on?
colomon but die "blah" can by caught by CATCH, right?
[Coke] rakudo star spectest failures:
gist.github.com/b44a0719b290f5a8ec16
sorear does it have to die in void context, for instance? 22:52
what about in void context in lists?
I'm extremely uneasy about the "void context eagerizes lists" thing
colomon that does sound... disturbing. 22:53
probably the smartest thing to do would be for me to ask the European gang how they are using fail in the morning while you're asleep. 22:54
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colomon sorear: gotta run, bedtime for the little guy 22:55
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dalek blets: a6d3f7d | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (3 files):
add backlinks
 23:18
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colomon sorear: I'm back 23:34
dalek blets: 3c8fc76 | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/appendix- (2 files):
added match object methods
 23:40
colomon sorear: actually, looking at fail.t is giving me a headache. 23:42
Actually, it looks exactly like it was written by different people with a different understanding of how fail is supposed to work. :) 23:43
or at least, a different understanding that Damian and I have. 23:44
for instance:
my $exception = fail 42;
fail()
return fail()
fail if !@lines; 23:45
fail AnEx.new
timotimo yikes
colomon (where AnEx is Exception)
fail('foo')
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dalek blets: ccd894a | (Herbert Breunung)++ | docs/styles.css:
minor text color tweak
 23:52
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