»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
rjbs yum, pho. 00:19
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quietfanatic One thing I miss in Perl6 that there was in C is the ability to chain statement control forms. 01:23
if (...) \n for (...) \n if (...) \n { ... }
without requiring a {} for each line and inducing indentation creep. 01:24
I wonder if the Perl 6 grammar could be flexed to support it (without parentheses)
I know chained ifs can be done with 'and', but fors and such would benefit from this. 01:26
(er, take out the final \n before the {) 01:27
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geekosaur they're a frequent source of unexpected behavior in C, actually, and are widely regarded as a misfeature as a result 01:33
quietfanatic The only unexpected behavior I can imagine is an ambiguously-matched else. 01:36
And as long as the final set of { } is required you won't accidentally drop statements out of the block. 01:37
dalek ecza/non-bootstrap: e80e1fe | sorear++ | lib/ (4 files):
Actions pt 16
 01:38
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quietfanatic I suppose you can chain them in statement postfix form, but that makes the program flow backwards. 01:40
std: 3 if 5 for 0..10 if 1 01:49
p6eval std 30385f8: OUTPUT«Use of uninitialized value $x in pattern match (m//) at STD.pm line 66584.␤Use of uninitialized value $x in concatenation (.) or string at STD.pm line 66623.␤Use of uninitialized value $x in pattern match (m//) at STD.pm line 66584.␤Use of uninitialized value $x in c…
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quietfanatic I take it back, you can't arbitrarily chain statement postfixes. 01:49
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quietfanatic Not only that, it makes std wig out. 01:49
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TimToady even though C lets you omit those braces, a lot of people would consider it bad form in terms of communicating intent to the reader 02:19
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quietfanatic I do not find it unclear at all, but I guess I am not a lot of people. 02:35
Strange people.
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mucker TimToady: I was wondering. In english, a plural is formed by taking a word and adding a *suffix* 's' to it. In perl, wouldn't it be more linguitical to have foo$ and foo@ ?? Also is there a language that uses a prefix to indicate a plural ? 03:13
*linguistical 03:14
quietfanatic It would be more Englishtical, sure 03:16
I don't know about linguistical. 03:17
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TimToady well, Navi has a plural prefix... :) 03:23
apparently proto-IE had one too
which might or might not be related to the re- we were discussing earlier
I'm sure there are others, but such info is difficult to google for 03:24
as for putting the sigil last, BASIC/PLUS had foo$ for strings and foo% for integers 03:25
but that doesn't help with interpolation
Athabaskan languages 03:28
Swahili, apparently 03:29
Bantu as well 03:31
mucker nice to know :) 03:32
How would suffix sigil be problematic for interpolation ?
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TimToady Etung in Nigeria, so perhaps most African languages work this way 03:34
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TimToady mucker: you'd have to backtrack after finding the $ 03:34
mucker Ah, ok 03:35
good idea for a Acme, source filter though :P
TimToady apparently a lot of Pacific Indian languages work this way too 03:37
interesting question though 03:38
mucker++
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alester Is there some magic that nqp needs to know about Parrot? 03:54
[Coke] alester: ?
alester uniqua:~/nqp :( $ perl Configure.pl
error:imcc:No such file or directory
in file 'parrot-config.pir' line 1
Do I need to do some other Parrot install other than "sudo make install" 03:55
[Coke] you might have an old parrot installed. perhaps use --gen-parrot to build a local copy?
alester I just installed it now
--gen-parrot on Configure.pl?
[Coke] (when I work on rakudo, I tend to use its --gen-parrot option, and have it build a fresh copy of nqp (which builds a fresh copy of parrot) all local to rakudo.
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alester so I don't need to bother installing Parrot to /usr/local? 03:56
[Coke] if you installed a recent parrot, then the recent nqp should work, assuming it's in your path.
I don't think most devs do, no.
it gets installed, but into .../rakudo/install
and --gen-parrot does all the git work (if any) for you. 03:57
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alester well, I DID just install to /usr/local 03:58
/usr/local/include/parrot etc
but I get the same results when I tried --with-parrot=/usr/local/bin/parrot 04:01
ah, I see what it did. OK, I guess I'll delete my big installed one 04:03
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alester holy cow, the compiler errors in nqp. 04:05
My work here is clear.
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alester oh poo, they're in 3rd-party files. I'll to do some makefile stuff. 04:14
sorear compiler ... errors? 04:15
alester well, warnings
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[Coke] alester is stricter than your average bear. 04:36
[Coke] realizes it's tomorrow, and thinks that if he's going to stock cans of soda and drink them at 8pm, they shouldn't be red bull clones. 04:37
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adu [Coke]: heh 04:46
timotimo hm, somehow i find the syntax from ruby (and probably other places, too) where you append ? to a method name if it's supposed to test for some property, cute 04:51
std: sub is-foo?($a) { $a < 5 }
p6eval std 30385f8: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed block at /tmp/CTQ14AUcdE line 1:␤------> sub is-foo⏏?($a) { $a < 5 }␤ expecting any of:␤ new name to be defined␤ routine_def␤ trait␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 40m␤»
timotimo std: sub is-foo⁈($a) { $a < 5 } 04:52
p6eval std 30385f8: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed block at /tmp/9B3C7nnC05 line 1:␤------> sub is-foo⏏⁈($a) { $a < 5 }␤ expecting any of:␤ new name to be defined␤ routine_def␤ trait␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 40m␤»
sorear timotimo: I believe that first appeared in LISP, spelled ATOMP; the atom? form may have originated with Scheme 04:53
the P is for predicate
timotimo neither ? nor ¿ nor ⁈ work in function names :(
timotimo afks his way to uni 04:54
benabik .u 04:59
phenny benabik: You gave me zero length input.
benabik .u ⁈
phenny U+2048 QUESTION EXCLAMATION MARK (⁈)
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geekosaur smalltalk also uses the foo? form (and is where ruby picked it up from) 05:11
moritz waits for the !!!!11! Unicode character
adu hi moritz 05:14
moritz \o adu 05:17
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adu what was that testing thing? 05:17
the whole ok function thing
TAP found it 05:19
sisar (re appending ? to methods) its a nice idea to differentiate methods. 05:26
r: my $v = 'abc'; $v.uc; say $v; 05:27
p6eval rakudo d4c8e6: OUTPUT«abc␤»
sisar hmm, which methods modify a variable permanently ?
moritz r: my $v = 'abc'; $v.=uc; say $v 05:28
p6eval rakudo d4c8e6: OUTPUT«ABC␤»
sisar well, other than the "=uc" stlye methods :)
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sisar ok we have push, pop, etc. 05:30
nm.
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sisar was a very vague question... 05:30
sorear $-vars and @-vars are different in kind. if you want to truly understand Perl 6, you need to accept this. 05:33
adu r: say * ~~ ::Whatever
p6eval rakudo d4c8e6: OUTPUT«True␤»
adu huh
sorear $-vars can be modified by any method
n: my class Foo { method bar($self is rw:) { $self = 10 } }: my $x = Foo.new; $x.bar; say $x;
p6eval niecza v18-7-ga660099: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Illegal use of colon as invocant marker at /tmp/tbLLps6pLH line 1:␤------> thod bar($self is rw:) { $self = 10 } }:⏏ my $x = Foo.new; $x.bar; say $x;␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/ni…
sorear n: my class Foo { method bar($self is rw:) { $self = 10 } }; my $x = Foo.new; $x.bar; say $x; 05:34
p6eval niecza v18-7-ga660099: OUTPUT«10␤»
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sorear method calls are just sub calls under the hood, and like any sub they can have rw parameters. 05:35
sisar sorear: I need to accept that I can never know if a method has a rw under the hood ? 05:36
sorear yes. 05:37
fortunately, that's only for $-vars.
sisar but I guess Perl 6 has good defaults in this case
sorear: aye, fortunately :) 05:38
sorear @-vars can never be modified; they are fixed to refer to a specific Positional object at binding time
.push is a completely ordinary method; its invocant is typically an Array object, which has mutable state
n: say (-> $foo { }).signature 05:42
p6eval niecza v18-7-ga660099: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $foo is declared but not used at /tmp/07xUuUoP10 line 1:␤------> say (-> ⏏$foo { }).signature␤␤Unhandled exception: Nominal type check failed in binding '' in 'ClassHOW.name'; got Mu, needed Any␤ at /home/p6eval…
sorear n: say (-> $foo { 2 }).signature
p6eval niecza v18-7-ga660099: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $foo is declared but not used at /tmp/Pdgv1s9jGF line 1:␤------> say (-> ⏏$foo { 2 }).signature␤␤Unhandled exception: Nominal type check failed in binding '' in 'ClassHOW.name'; got Mu, needed Any␤ at /home/p6ev…
sorear n: say (-> $foo { 2 }).signature.perl
p6eval niecza v18-7-ga660099: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $foo is declared but not used at /tmp/JUrNINy1xl line 1:␤------> say (-> ⏏$foo { 2 }).signature.perl␤␤Unhandled exception: Nominal type check failed in binding '' in 'ClassHOW.name'; got Mu, needed Any␤ at /home…
sorear n: say (-> $foo { 2 }).signature.perl #OK
p6eval niecza v18-7-ga660099: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Nominal type check failed in binding '' in 'ClassHOW.name'; got Mu, needed Any␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 0 (ClassHOW.name @ 1) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1107 (Parameter.perl @ 9) ␤ at /home/p6… 05:43
sorear n: say (-> Int $foo { 2 }).signature.perl #OK
p6eval niecza v18-7-ga660099: OUTPUT«:(Int $foo)␤»
sorear n: say (<-> Int $foo { 2 }).signature.perl #OK
p6eval niecza v18-7-ga660099: OUTPUT«:(Int $foo is rw)␤»
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sisar o/ spaceships ! 05:43
spaceships howdy :) 05:50
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dalek ecza/non-bootstrap: dda9f42 | sorear++ | lib/ (2 files):
Actions pt 17 (last!)
 06:05
tadzik good morning zebras 06:08
sisar sorear: congrats on finishing Actions !! 06:09
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sorear heh. 06:11
'phase 1 is complete' 06:12
I have a lot of loose ends to tie up, and a bootstrap parser to write, before it can even try to run tests 06:13
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sisar sorear++ 06:18
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kresike good morning all you happy perl6 people 07:21
sorear good morning kresike.
kresike hello sorear 07:22
brrt sorear: no offense but when do you sleep? :-o 07:24
sorear brrt: in about 2 hours, +/- 1 07:25
brrt I am in awe
sorear no, I mean I start 2 hours from now 07:26
I will be getting up about 10 hours from now
brrt still that is short
sorear 8 hours is pretty normal for a US young adult 07:27
brrt hmm, i guess
sorear my parents make do on significantly less
moritz sleep length varies greatly 07:29
I can make do with 8h a day during the week, but then I need a bit more on weekends 07:30
bonsaikitten I oscillate between ~6 and ~12h a day, with an average near 8h 07:31
sorear o/ moritz
dalek p: b5930e1 | moritz++ | tools/build/PARROT_REVISION:
bump parrot version to 4.5 release
 07:33
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jnthn morning, #perl6 08:04
tadzik hello jnthn
moritz \o jnthn 08:05
tadzik o/
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sorear o/ jnthn 08:11
jnthn at $onsite-dayjob today, so won't have tuits until the evening 08:12
I do at least write a little Perl 6 at this $dayjob at the moment though :0
*:)
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moritz yay 08:16
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tadzik wow 08:19
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flussence whoa, how long has <-> { } been there? 10:14
moritz flussence: quite a while :-)
flussence I need to keep up with these things more often :) 10:15
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moritz at least since 2008 10:17
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[Coke] 4611 tjs 20 0 1874m 978m 1180 D 0.3 83.3 0:54.42 weechat-curses 13:07
83.3% of memory on weechat client.
holding pretty steady.
I think that might be tadzik. 13:08
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pmichaud yes, feather is really slow for me atm 13:15
[Coke] I don't have sudo. 13:17
it's still eating up memory, probably need to kill it.
s/eating up/holding on to/ 13:18
moritz logs in, and causes even less memory to be available
pmichaud feather load is 14.16 :-/
moritz killed. 13:19
pmichaud oh wait, down to 7.47 now :)
[Coke] moritz: do you have privs to kill that?
pmichaud moritz++
[Coke] ah, thanks.
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[Coke] weird, it's still alive. 13:19
moritz sends it a deadly SIGKILL 13:20
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[Coke] all sorts of gone now. thanks. 13:20
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moritz phenny: tell tadzik sorry, but I had to kill your weechat instance on feature, it used up 1.8G of RAM and swapped 13:21
phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when tadzik is around.
moritz phenny: tell tadzik *feather
phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when tadzik is around.
tadzik moritz: huh, that sounds weird
phenny tadzik: 13:21Z <moritz> tell tadzik sorry, but I had to kill your weechat instance on feature, it used up 1.8G of RAM and swapped
tadzik: 13:21Z <moritz> tell tadzik *feather
moritz tadzik: aye
tadzik it appeared unreachable for the last couple of minutes, indeed
moritz checks if there's a security update for weechat available on debian 13:22
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moritz weechat (0.3.7-1 => 0.3.8-1) 13:23
tadzik may help
moritz done.
tadzik I'll restart it then 13:24
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moritz if you want to be safe, do an ulimit first 13:24
tadzik I hope that won't happen again
moritz pmichaud: I've received an email from somebody who found dead links on rakudo.org, and couldn't find any webmaster email address to notify 13:26
pmichaud: I've fixed those links, but we should do something about the missing webmaster email address 13:27
pmichaud moritz: where would a webmaster email address normally go?
we can certainly put my address there
moritz pmichaud: well, we could use your email address, or create a new mailing list, or tell them to write to p6c 13:28
pmichaud p6c requires registration, or at least moderation.
moritz I wonder if we should make a general p6w list for perl 6 related websites
like perl6.org, rakudo.org, modules.perl6.org etc. 13:29
pmichaud what's the contact address for perl6.org, ooc?
moritz or if we should use one of the existing addresses
#perl6
I might have added mine somewhere too
pmichaud yours is there, on the about page
frettled I think a group address or similar would be nice. Personal addresses are way too failure prone.
pmichaud I suspect we could get a [email@hidden.address] address. I'd have to check the DNS settings to know if [email@hidden.address] can work. 13:31
pmichaud checks
flussence I'd suggest having a webmaster@ address that forwards to a real person, there's some RFC somewhere that lists a few "standard" addresses like that one
moritz fwiw I'm going to upgrade screen on feather 13:32
flussence tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2142
moritz that might kill open screen sessions
you can execute /tmp/screen-4.0.3 to connect to your old screen sessions 13:33
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pmichaud okay, looks like [email@hidden.address] emails successfully make it to the server, so I can at least set up [email@hidden.address] or [email@hidden.address] forwarding addresses 13:37
sisar doesn't wordpress have a plugn or something for this kinda thing ? 13:40
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pmichaud sisar: oh, probably, yes, but I'm not sure where to look for it. And besides, contact email address is pretty standard for our likely audience. 13:43
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sisar pmichaud: ok. I can look for a suitable plugin if you want... 13:44
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pmichaud moritz: rakudo.org/about/ 13:53
moritz pmichaud: great
pmichaud [email@hidden.address] currently forwards to my address; I can forward to anyone else that wants to receive them
moritz please add my email address too
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moritz [email@hidden.address] 13:54
sisar pmichaud, moritz : i just found this: en.support.wordpress.com/contact-form/
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[Coke] you can add me too for the webmaster stuff. 13:55
moritz: did the screen upgrade happen?
pmichaud oh, hmmm, my forwarder doesn't like multiple email addresses
I kind of like moritz++'s idea of having a mailing list for infrastructure-things 13:56
sisar the contact from looks perfect, but well, pmichaud++ has already set up an email.
*form
pmichaud not sure it should be perl6-web[master]? though.... as we might want admin things not directly web related 13:57
timotimo yapc recordings where the camera never ever shows the slides make me very sad
sisar pmichaud: may I setup a contact form page, and if u like it we can keep it. 13:58
moritz perl6-infra ?
[Coke] pmichaud: I can setup a redirect alias at coleda.com ;)
pmichaud yeah, perl6-infra maybe. we might have some github notifications going to that address too
[Coke]: oh, I can definitely get something at rakudo.org that will work
[Coke] hokay. 13:59
sisar there are 31 pending comments on rakudo.org, most of which are spam. May I clean that up ? 14:01
pmichaud sisar: spam cleanup +1
sisar is on it
pmichaud sisar: if you want to create a page with a contact form, we can look at that also
moritz and maybe add a link to that to the footer, or so 14:02
pmichaud moritz: how about [email@hidden.address] for the mailing list?
sisar pmichaud: i'll make it later tonight.
pmichaud seems long
moritz pmichaud: well, if it's @rakudo.org, it won't be attractive for non-rakudo stuff (modules.perl6.org etc.)
pmichaud moritz: sure, but I don't control the other domains :-/ 14:03
moritz pmichaud: well, we can always ask the perl.org guys for a mailing list
pmichaud could be noc@...
perl6-noc@... :-) 14:04
moritz noc?
pmichaud "network operations center", canonically
daxim hand in your computer geek card.
moritz nervous operating center :-)
daxim noc.perl.org/
moritz anyway, perl6-noc or perl6-infra would both be fine by me 14:05
tadzik sjn: ping 14:06
sjn pong 14:07
tadzik: what's up? :)
tadzik sjn: when are the Oslo.pm meetings?
pmichaud I'll see if I can get [email@hidden.address] mailing list set up.
sjn tadzik: first wednesday every month 14:08
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sjn has tadzik's papers at home, but hasn't had time to refund the monies yet :-/ 14:08
tadzik oh, I'm glad they got there, was just to ask about this
sjn yeah, apologies for the delay 14:09
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tadzik no problem, I'm the bottleneck of the delays anyway :) 14:09
sjn I'll get to it soon (I need some refunding myself too, so I'll do it at the same time)
btw, I haven't recieved anything from Filip, I think 14:10
tadzik anyway, there's a chance that me and zby will stumble upon your meeting while visiting the office in July
sjn tadzik: ooh, cool! :)
tadzik: bring some of your colleagues :)
tadzik sjn: yeah, me and zby is the entire Warsaw team :P
sjn heheeh
let's call you "Warsaw.pm" :) 14:11
sjn was actually thinking about the others at the Oslo office ;(
tadzik the original plan was to be there from thursday up, but we'll see what we can do
sjn ;)
tadzik I can poke some of those guys too
sjn great :)
btw, if you bump into sergot, would you mind reminding him about sending his receipts and tickets and stuff? 14:12
tadzik sure thing
sjn is pretty sure he hasn't received any 14:13
tadzik seen sergot?
phenny: seen sergot?
aloha: seen sergot?
no luck for me
sjn :-/
the bots are asleep 14:14
pmichaud ENOALOHA
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pmichaud moritz: I'm cc'ing you on the perl.org request. 14:16
[Coke]: do you want to be included on the setup discussion, or just a member of the list once it's created?
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timotimo xprop 14:18
flussence + 14:19
moritz phenny: tell sergot < sjn> btw, if you bump into sergot, would you mind reminding him about sending his receipts and tickets and stuff? 14:20
phenny moritz: I'll pass that on when sergot is around.
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sjn yay! :) 14:20
sjn forgets how to use the bots, despite having seen masak's presentation about them a few years ago in Oslo :) 14:21
moritz you forget stuff you heard just a few years ago? :-) 14:22
sjn no, I forget stuff constantly, and this has been going on for several years :) 14:23
pmichaud moritz: do we want a mailing list on perl.org, or just a forwarding address to a mailing list somewhere else (e.g., google groups or something)?
moritz pmichaud: I'm fine with a perl.org mailing list
pmichaud okay, I'll go for that.
sending. 14:24
moritz pmichaud++
[Coke] for perl.org stuff? cc'ing me may help, as I was the liason with perl.org stuff when parrot was there. Iunno. 14:25
(sure)
pmichaud darn, just sent it
[Coke] n oworries.
pmichaud coke: I'll copy you in on any discussions that occur, if any
I suspect it'll be straightforward :)
kresike bye all 14:26
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timotimo is it my fault or does pmichauds talk about lists have only blackness on the video stream here and there? 14:28
moritz timotimo: I get the blackouts too
pmichaud the blackouts are in the video itself 14:30
timotimo OK
pmichaud I don't know if the official videos will have the same issue; I know that they were there as part of the livestream when it occurred
(and the videos on youtube are just captures of the livestream) 14:31
timotimo all right, gives me hope :) 14:33
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timotimo wow, this is incredibly frustrating. some evil person must have intentionally analysed the stream for where it would be most inconvenient for the video to go black 14:38
rjbs heh
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timotimo "good question! *opens vim*, so if i have a situation like this <start blackness> <long explanation> *closes vim* <end blackness>" 14:39
tadzik yeah
pmichaud I suspect I could re-figure out what happened in the vim part :)
timotimo aha! there's the vim again!
moritz the vim will always be with you 14:41
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timotimo i'm a big fan of the "no worries" pragma block 14:50
rjbs sounds great, what does it do? 14:52
sisar pmichaud: "WordPress 3.4 is available! Please notify the site administrator." maybe you'd like to upgrade ?
pmichaud sisar: yes, I'll upgrade it later. 14:53
sisar pmichaud++
moritz rjbs: pmichaud used it in his talk to indicate stuff that the audience doesn't have to understand
pmichaud rjbs: "no worries" identified a segment of my talk.... what moritz++ said :)
rjbs looks forward to watching some youtube videos!
moritz too 14:54
pmichaud pmichaud.com/2012/pres/yapcna-lists...lide9.html
pmichaud.com/2012/pres/yapcna-lists...ide15.html
moritz fwiw I've started a branch that tries to implement 'no strict;' 14:55
pmichaud moritz++
moritz I think I need to discuss it with jnthn++ a bit
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harmil So, I'm not sure if TimToady misunderstood my question last night, or if rakudo is wrong... 14:59
but here's what I've got:
sisar_ maybe someone can reply to this: rakudo.org/2012/05/23/rakudo-star-2...mment-1665
harmil rn: given "abc" { when /(.<[b]>)|(<[a]>:<[b]>)/ { say "0={$0 // "Nothing"} 1={$1 // "Nothing"}" } }
p6eval niecza v18-7-ga660099: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter : (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/2nnDDfXU47 line 1:␤------> given "abc" { when /(.<[b]>)|(<[a]>:⏏<[b]>)/ { say "0={$0 // "Nothing"} 1={$1␤␤Unable to parse captu…
..rakudo d4c8e6: OUTPUT«0=ab 1=Nothing␤»
harmil ah, didn't know that n didn't do : yet
anyway that 0th expression is always matched. 15:00
15:00 sisar left
pmichaud ummmm 15:00
jnthn Was the "slow startup" comment actually based on a current/recent R* release?
harmil TimToady was suggesting that : didn't do that.
pmichaud those are both $0 captures
harmil oh heck, I forgot p6 did that! 15:01
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harmil thanks, pmichaud++ 15:01
moritz jnthn: good question 15:02
sisar jnthn: no idea. I'll ask the OP.
moritz startup is more like 0.4s or 0.5s here
[Coke] I suggest a memory starved box, but they he couldn't have built it. 15:04
timotimo if i derive from iterable and implement reify to return n times the element n, what would that look like? :) 15:05
moritz or maybe cold startup
sisar i've asked the OP about his/her Rakudo version (rakudo.org/2012/05/23/rakudo-star-2...ment-1666) 15:07
moritz sisar++ 15:08
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jnthn A 50 line Perl 6 script run with rakudo++ helped me delete 350,000 lines of C# code today :) 15:09
moritz so, your summary is -349,950 lines :-) 15:10
sisar jnthn: wow !
moritz were they all handwritten?
colomon jnthn++
jnthn No
Generated, and the IDE kept getting the usage analysis wrong for no good reason :/ 15:11
I've also got one analysing stored proc usage transitively, which has dredged up 900 in theory dead SPs. Need to analyze that bunch of stuff some more next time... 15:12
jnthn is a Perl 6 armed janitor :)
Anyways, home time...and probably some 6-shaped tuits this evening :)
moritz \o/
sisar ok, so 0 pending comments for rakudo.org.
moritz sisar++ 15:13
colomon also used Perl 6 for $work this morning, but in a much less spectacular fashion
[Coke] still has his mini log analyzer. nothing fancy.
[Coke] needs to get that running locally so he doesn't have to ssh into feather to run it. ;) 15:14
sisar (the OP with the time issue actually commented on 2012/05/08 about wanting to try Rakudo, and then finally ran the helloperl.pl script today.)
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TimToady harmil: also, : only does something if you backtrack, and there's nothing in your expression that backtracks 15:22
harmil So, right now, it seems that (I don't know if this is to spec) rakudo breaks ties in regexes based on which comes first. 15:28
r: grammar G { rule TOP { <exp> | <aexp>: }; rule exp { \w+ }; rule aexp { 'a'\w* } }; say G.parse("abc").perl 15:29
p6eval rakudo d4c8e6: OUTPUT«Match.new(orig => "abc", from => 0, to => 3, ast => Any, list => ().list, hash => EnumMap.new("exp", Match.new(orig => "abc", from => 0, to => 3, ast => Any, list => ().list, hash => EnumMap.new()), ))␤»
harmil for example, in that case, exp is matched, but if I reverse exp and aexp, then aexp is matched 15:30
ignore the : I left that in because of my testing
But I'm assuming that it's unsafe to rely on that behavior... 15:31
sisar pmichaud: The contact form feature is not available in the current WordPress version which we are running. After you upgrade it, i'll work on it.
harmil r: grammar G { rule TOP { <aexp> | <exp> }; rule exp { \w+ }; rule aexp { 'a'\w* } }; say G.parse("abc").perl 15:32
p6eval rakudo d4c8e6: OUTPUT«Match.new(orig => "abc", from => 0, to => 3, ast => Any, list => ().list, hash => EnumMap.new("aexp", Match.new(orig => "abc", from => 0, to => 3, ast => Any, list => ().list, hash => EnumMap.new()), ))␤»
sisar pmichaud: just ping me when you've upgraded it.
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harmil Aha, no! The Overview section of S05 does say, "4) Within a given compilation unit, earlier declaration wins" 15:34
hmmm… though that seems to be _not_ what rakudo is doing
since I didn't change the order of declaration.
pmichaud harmil: in the example above, I think that aexp should always win based on literal prefix 15:35
although might be off because of 'rule' and leading whitespace
r: grammar G { token TOP { <exp> | <aexp> }; token exp { \w+ }; token aexp { 'a' \w* } }; say G.parse('abc').perl 15:36
p6eval rakudo d4c8e6: OUTPUT«Match.new(orig => "abc", from => 0, to => 3, ast => Any, list => ().list, hash => EnumMap.new("exp", Match.new(orig => "abc", from => 0, to => 3, ast => Any, list => ().list, hash => EnumMap.new()), ))␤»
pmichaud I'm guessing 'aexp' should've won there. 15:37
sisar this line from rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/ about the Rakudo's REPL seems wrong: 15:40
"Each line entered is treated as a separate compilation unit, however (which means that subroutines are preserved after they are defined, but variables are not)."
harmil hmm… interesting.
sisar variables are not preserbed / 15:41
?
*preserved ?
harmil pmichaud: for now, I think the answer is that I can't rely on the behavior, and that's good enough.
quietfanatic That's weird. I'm pretty sure variables are and are supposed to be preserved
sisar quietfanatic: *nod*
The sentence is broken anyways. Does WP keep a changelog of pages ? 15:42
pmichaud quietfanatic: that text might actually be from before when rakudo had working lexicals in the REPL 15:43
(which would be from before rakudo.org was on WP :-)
sisar nah, WordPress does not (keep a changelog of page editing). 15:44
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sisar (from the same paragraph) "If the Rakudo compiler is invoked without an explicit script to run, it enters a small interactive mode... " Whats so "small" about it ? 15:45
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sisar awwaiid: o/ 15:46
quietfanatic Er, becuse it doesn't display a big banner across your screen?
flussence compare it to haskell's repl, or python's 15:47
pmichaud I'm fine with eliminating "small" there :)
awwaiid I got a high five, sisar? thanks! 15:48
sisar awwaiid: :)
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sisar pmichaud: the whole page needs a rewrite, a more recent version is the INSTALL.txt file in the rakudo repo. I'll steal text from that. 15:49
pmichaud sisar++ # good 15:50
sisar moritz: Why is a .txt suffix good/needed ? (github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6e...efb0dbf63d ) After all README, VERSION, etc don't have one. 15:54
moritz sisar: can't remember, that's nearly a year ago 15:57
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sisar moritz: ok, not a big issue :-) 15:58
sisar gets pendatic many times 16:01
daxim that's spelled "pedantic"!
sisar daxim: !! :-)
masak Muphry's law at work. 16:02
evening, meatbrains.
sisar masak: o/
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sisar the ICU4C library is not a must have for Rakudo, right ? 16:05
jnthn Not a hard requirement, no.
sisar are there any tests/spectests which will fail if there is no ICU ? 16:07
moritz yes, those that marked with #icu in t/spectest.data
sisar moritz: ok 16:08
jnthn (They only get run if you have ICU.)
sisar oh so it will skip 'em, right.
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masak right. 16:15
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masak another sexism-related incident at a tech conf. www.whatwherewhy.me/blog/2012/06/11...male-gaze/ -- wow. 16:57
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benabik While I don't mind not having to wear a suit & tie, perhaps referring to genitalia is getting a little _too_ casual. 17:09
PerlJam First time I've seen the term "feminism theory" 17:11
masak really? you must not live in Sweden.
here it's an academic field. 17:12
jnthn :/
rjbs It's usually called "feminist theory" ime. 17:13
Ah, as it is in the article.
jnthn wonders why it's not as blindingly obvious to others as it is to him that said Azure dance routine and song was of course going to be a terrible idea.
rjbs jnthn: It's bizarre, isn't it?
PerlJam either way, it's the first time I've seen the word "theory" associated with feminism in any way.
benabik I find the face that it's a .me domain amusing. My first read of the domain name is "What? Where? Why me?" 17:14
PerlJam rjbs: it's ... wait for it ... the male gaze! :)
masak jnthn: sometimes bad ideas aren't properly culled before publishing. seems like a case of not enough people in the filtering process who would've thought of stopping it. 17:15
pmichaud PerlJam: looks like a common term in most Women's Studies curricula
masak: I suspect it's "...who would've realized anything was amiss", sadly.
rjbs benabik: Heh.
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flussence today something reminded me of the whole "Windows 7 Release Party" thing. MS really needs to stop trying to "innovate" its advertising. 17:16
PerlJam not enough critical thinkers in the room.
pmichaud well, it may also have been a small room 17:17
sorear good * #perl6
masak feels to me MS often makes this kind of blunt mistake when trying to amuse people. 17:18
good *, sorear.
or maybe it's just big IT corps making this kind of blunt mistake. Dell recently did the misogynist comedian stunt. 17:19
PerlJam no, they're just more noticable 17:21
[Coke] masak: tofubrain.
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pmichaud afk, lunch 17:23
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masak [Coke]: I wonder if there are vegan zombies. 17:29
adu masak: misogynist comedian? what did they do? 17:30
[Coke] masak: GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINS 17:31
masak [Coke]: :P 17:32
adu: geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Mads_Ch...n_and_Dell 17:33
adu interesting 17:35
PerlJam also, testafy looks like Cucumber with a nice interface 17:36
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masak PerlJam: url? DuckDuckGo doesn't find anything reasonable for 'testafy', and is sure I spelled it rong. 18:17
[Coke] testify? 18:18
rjbs testafy
PerlJam testafy.com
rjbs I have their card somewhere. 18:19
I can look for it in a minute if nobody finds it.
masak PerlJam: thank you.
PerlJam: I'm still curious about how the failure modes of such a thing may look. 18:21
there is something to be said for crisp exactness, too. 18:22
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masak but yeah, "the Google of automation tools" sounds not-too-bad. 18:22
rjbs I wanted to see whether I could program it without using the Englishy bits
I don't care if they offer that for others, but I really do not like programming like that. 18:23
PerlJam rjbs: me either. It's too far away from the metal and not quite the right abstraction (for me). 18:24
rjbs And if you want to metaprogram, you're now generating "English" with perl 18:25
masak brains and computers keep meeting in the middle and creating awesome stuff. English isn't the middle, it's too much towards the brains. 18:27
PerlJam things like cucumber or testafy also don't make sense to me a BDD. The underlying premise that the devs and clients always talk to each other seems a little unrealistic. however, as "behavior driven bug fix" or something it might more sense in that you can have the "customer care" folks interact with the client and without much technical knowledge they can generate the appropriate tests that you can code to. 18:29
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masak I am really jazzed about the idea of an "executable spec", editable by the domain expert, and runnable as automated tests on the application. 18:32
I think that has great potential. and it makes a lot more sense with commands and events, too. 18:33
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PerlJam it'll have more potential when we get out of this "write your tests in this stilted english" phase. :) 18:37
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jnthn Those weird English dialects always struck me as at least as difficult to write as many programming languages. :) 18:38
Worse, as a programmer, I couldn't immediately see the patterns and how it mapped to stuff. 18:39
Feels like worst of both worlds.
masak you.wrong.me.sir! once.you.learn.to.read.this.it.is.very.easy!
masak .oO( Object-Obsessed Programming )
jnthn hah, reminds me of a slide I once had...
You.Put.Periods(in => "stuff").And("throw").In(some => "lambdas").And.HOLYSHITADSL(); 18:40
masak :P
masak read that as "holy shit, ASDL!" 18:41
PerlJam heh
jnthn Back in the long-way-from-anything village where I grew up, there was a day I said that one too. :P
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jnthn oh wait, that was ADSL... :) 18:43
masak oops. indeed.
pmichaud "Holy dotcoms, Batman! It's a method chain!"
jnthn Though, google ASDL and there is a "Abstract Syntax Description Language" 18:44
:)
PerlJam I'm all for these so-called DSLs if they are useful. But many times they are just clever-for-clever sake if you ask me.
masak aye.
jnthn Too many times, yeah.
masak regexes are undeniably a useful DSL.
jnthn Right. 18:45
There's a bunch of good examples.
pmichaud bah, behind every regex is source code that is within a couple of orders of magnitude of the regex version. :-P 18:46
afk for a while 18:47
sorear asymmetric direct subscriber line? anti-defamationsomethingleague? 18:50
tadzik wasn't that Digital Subscriber Line? 18:51
jnthn I think so. 18:52
masak pmichaud: that's probably part of why regexes are really useful. they fold complex string handling into a natural syntax. 18:53
I'm always on the lookout for ways to pull off the same trick in other domains. *syntactically* making hard things possible. 18:54
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harmil 300 lines of code in 4 files, and I get "Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}'" 19:26
Any chance Rakudo could change that error to "go fish"?
diakopter +238746 that error is horribly common 19:28
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jnthn harmil: I *could* do that, but instead I fixed it to report a location in github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/ea9cee...1e30354720 :) 19:40
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colomon harmil: I've got that error in Rakudo with perfectly legal Perl 6 code... 19:41
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harmil jnthn: clearly you are incapable of performing a simple request. For shame! ;-) 19:44
jnthn harmil: I'll put it on my todo list :-P
harmil colomon: well, parsing errors will happen. My concern is just trying to find the location, and jnthn has fixed that for me. Thanks!
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tadzik "She talks about closure and that validation bit" 19:49
Well, Offspring, I've never looked at you in that light
sjn: sergot says he'll send stuff tommorow
huf hahahahah :D
adu tadzik: you're awake? 20:03
tadzik adu: I am 20:04
adu: whatsup? 20:07
adu tadzik: the sky 20:08
tadzik haha, you got me by suprise ;) 20:09
adu also, trying to learn how to use TAP/Test.pm
tadzik it's quite convenient 20:11
adu but I guess one could just print "not ok" too 20:12
tadzik indeed. Rakudo does that, in pre-Test.pm tests
but it's just easier to call ok()
adu it is
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colomon is now undoing his last four hours' worth of $work... 20:41
geekosaur oops 20:44
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sisar where in the synopses are the rules for variable names ? or are the rules same as perl5 ? 21:03
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masak sisar: S02. 21:06
the rules are mostly the same as in Perl 5.
sisar masak: thanks
masak what's new is that you can use apostrophes and dashes inside identifiers, as long as alphabetics surround.
rn: sub foo-bar'baz { say "OH HAI" }; foo-bar'baz 21:07
p6eval rakudo d4c8e6, niecza v18-7-ga660099: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
sisar "identifiers" ? 21:10
'identifier' is the variabe/sub/object name ?
[Coke] huh. cj is the name of my bot.
moritz sisar: yes
[Coke] cj: compute the distance to the moon! # ;)
masak sisar: yes, it's the thing that's common between a variable and a sub name and a class name.
moritz sisar: though variables in perl 6 are sigil + optional twigil + identifier 21:11
sisar moritz, masak : thanks.
timotimo moritz: there's also a way to have sigil-less variables
[Coke] r: say 247038 * 5280
moritz .. plus optional more identifiers, separated by double colons
p6eval rakudo d4c8e6: OUTPUT«1304360640␤»
sisar we really need to document these simple concepts somewhere
moritz++, masak++ 21:12
timotimo when you put \ in signatures etc
masak I'm sure more can be done to build an explicit vocab somewhere.
timotimo (i use "etc" as "you have to put in all the details because i don't know anything more about it")
sisar masak: +1 for a perl6 vocab
masak but in some sense, the only cure for ignorance is hanging around here for half a decade or so.
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masak .oO( I didn't used to know what "ignoramus" meant, and now I are one! ) 21:14
cj [Coke]: was.
[Coke]: it's my name. find a new one for your bot ;-) 21:15
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[Coke] if I ever port him to irc, and freenode, absolutely. ;) 21:27
[Coke] bumps that up a few notches on the fun todo list.
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sisar wiki.perl6.org/identifier , i could not come up with a good definition., can some add a good, maybe language neutral definition. 21:33
I like making such micro concept docs.
moritz r: a1-b 21:36
p6eval rakudo d4c8e6: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&a1-b' called (line 1)␤»
moritz std: a1-b
p6eval std 30385f8: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'a1-b' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 40m␤»
sisar "An identifier may also contain isolated apostrophes or hyphens provided the next character is alphabetic." What is an isolated apostrophe ? 21:37
flussence !~ / ^\' | \'$ / 21:38
moritz wonders if it isn't easier to write down the grammars rules for parsing identifiers :-) 21:39
apostrophe is '. "isolated" means there can't be two of them in a row
sisar moritz++ #defiening identifiers
cog_ <masak> "but in some sense, the only cure for ignorance is hanging around here for half a decade or so." Make it a french decade and it will be 365 times more palatable 21:42
masak what's a French decade?
cog_ ten days
masak heh.
365 times the knowledge shock, for sure. 21:43
sisar is yet to complete a year of #perl6 madness
masak .oO( I know Kung Ffffffffuuuuuuu )
cog_ masak, the factor is greater but in the opposite direction for billions. 21:45
a french billion is 1k the anglosaxon one. 21:46
anyway, I think we are saner than anglosaxons because we use the metric system 21:47
moritz note that on the British islands, at least the scientists use the metric system
flussence the roads don't :(
harmil cog_: $we.defined?
cog_ speaking of decade, fpw, the French Perl workshop, will happen in less then a décade. 21:48
*than
moritz and in Scotland, empty offices are advertised both in m² and ft²
harmil moritz: I'd ask about the y dimension as well before you buy. "It doesn't have one" is a bad sign.... 21:49
masak 'night, #perl6
diakopter o/
cog_ apple.com uses both systems : www.apple.com/macbookair/specs.html
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cog_ but we still uses inches in France for computer display diagonal for whatever reason. 21:50
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moritz that seems to be an international desease 21:51
timotimo (in germany, too)
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cog_ blame marketting 21:52
s/tt/t/
dalek c: edd0140 | moritz++ | lib/Int.pm:
basic Int docs
moritz it seems that Int doesn't really have any methods on its own 21:53
only those provided from Real and Cool
(notionally; the implementation still has some)
21:56 adu left
moritz www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=977481 # that illustrates the "arrays force all their values into containers, lists don't" thing, though in perl 5 21:58
moritz -> sleep, now that Ronja has decided to sleep as well :-) 21:59
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harmil is there a shorthand for saying "use Module; UNIT::EXPORT::DEFAULT::<&func-that-module-provides> = &func-that-module-provides;" ? That is to say, is there a way to say "re-export symbol foo" once I import it from a module? 22:13
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harmil Ah, nevermind, it was further down in S11 than I'd read 22:14
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harmil hmm… but the right way doesn't seem to be implemented in rakudo yet 22:15
jnthn harmil: No, I think it ain't there yet. 22:41
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flussence that's the one big blocker to me implementing a joke PHP module (export thousands of functions, but keep them sanely namespaced internally :) 22:50
jnthn I'm not sure whether you just encouraged me to implement it or discouraged me from implementing it :P 22:51
Time for some sleep, night o/ 22:55
flussence \o
.oO( sometimes Catalyst feels like the object-oriented equivalent... thousands of methods mixed in from dozens of modules )
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