»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
sjohnson *peek a boo* 00:06
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[Coke] finally can check IRC today. hey, perl6eeps. 00:09
sorear hey, [Coke]]
TimToady
.oO(perlbeeps?)
phenny TimToady: 28 Jun 23:06Z <pmichaud> tell TimToady I'm hoping you can answer the question on p6u about the rationale behind say vs print (gist versus string). I can write a response, but I'm fearfull I'll miss some of the nuances you ran into.
[Coke] you BEEPing perlians. 00:12
diakopter 6leeper
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TimToady
.oO(perl b from outer space)
 00:18
[Coke] www.youtube.com/watch?v=chfwaUtuOEk :: WTF? 00:27
flussence Wat. 00:34
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colomon sorear: ping? 01:50
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sorear colomon: pong 02:23
colomon sorear: I'm trying to figure out how to fix postinc and postdec for Bools 02:24
I wanted to ask you how to create a Bool object in Builtins.cs, but that's Kernel.FalseV and Kernel.TrueV, right? 02:25
sorear right.
colomon I'm very puzzled at the moment because I've somehow managed to fix 2 of the 5 fails.
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colomon took an embarrassingly long time searching the source to figure out TrueV and FalseV 02:27
ah, wait, fixed 2 of 3, the other 2 are something else. 02:28
sorear: still there? 02:32
sorear yes. 02:33
colomon turns out I fixed the bit I was trying to fix, and it's the other bit that's still wrong 02:34
can you break down what bit of v.AssignO(o1.mo.mro_succ.Get(v), false) does what?
o1 is the value of the variable... mro_succ gets the next value 02:35
but why is Get(v) there?
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colomon n: my $x = Bool; my $y = $x--; say $x 02:35
p6eval niecza v19-5-g75130da: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $y is declared but not used at /tmp/EmnF9Ls52Q line 1:␤------> my $x = Bool; my ⏏$y = $x--; say $x␤␤Bool()␤»
colomon that should be False, as far as I can tell. 02:36
sorear colomon: o1.mo.mro_succ returns a ContextHandler<Variable> object that implements succ() 02:37
colomon: for some of the hottest methods, a vtable-like mechanism is used to avoid the mro_methods hash table 02:38
colomon: ContextHandler<Variable> is a virtual class with an abstract method Get(). So you can implement succ() in C# code and it will be directly called 02:39
colomon ah!
sorear colomon: we could also have used delegates here, but they're measurably slower and a bit less nice from a serialization POV
colomon There doesn't seem to be a CtxBoolSuccish? 02:40
sorear no, there isn't 02:43
so mro_succ is a CtxCallMethod instance
which forwards the call to Perl 6 code
colomon which calls.... CommonEnum.succ?
sorear it's just method succ() { True }, iirc
quite possibly CommonEnum.succ 02:44
colomon yup. 02:46
okay, I'm going to bed, but I think I know how to sort this now. 02:47
sorear++
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colomon afk 02:49
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pmichaud static.happyplace.com/assets/images...2d3d4.jpeg # answers from a new perl 6 programmer? 04:35
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cognominal pmichaud, the exercice does not talk about comparing numbers. That's where the fail lies. 04:49
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pmichaud r: print < or >; 04:50
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«or»
pmichaud looks correct to me! :-)
cognominal TimToady would say something about context.
pmichaud r: my &Write = &say; Write < or >.
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/_3KEtA7Fel:1␤»
pmichaud r: my &Write = &say; Write < or >
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«or␤»
cognominal ho, I forgot about the syntax. You did set up the context. But I am not yet awake.
pmichaud, I guess I will add that jpeg to my fpw presentation 04:52
pmichaud I found it via www.happyplace.com/3907/unintention...m-children 04:53
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moritz \o 05:33
sorear o/ 05:35
cognominal pmichaud what is the url of your presentation about lists/iterators and laziness? 05:51
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cognominal i got it 06:06
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tadzik hello from FPW #perl6 07:28
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kresike good morning all you happy perl6 people 07:58
sorear good morning kresike 08:00
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kresike hello sorear o/ 08:00
moritz r: say <a b c>[^10].perl 08:03
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«("a", "b", "c")␤»
moritz r: say <a b c>.list[^10].perl
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«("a", "b", "c")␤»
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moritz r: say <a b c>.Arry[^10].perl 08:22
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«No such method 'Arry' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/cGxLbqoyu2:1␤␤»
moritz r: say <a b c>.Array[^10].perl
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«("a", "b", "c", Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any)␤»
moritz oh
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moritz r: say <a b c> 08:33
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«a b c␤»
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moritz r: print <a b c> 08:33
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«abc»
moritz r: my Date $x; say $x; print $x; 08:38
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Date()␤use of uninitialized variable $v of type Date in string context in block <anon> at /tmp/4Og3VnYutO:1␤␤»
dalek q: 2945628 | moritz++ | answers.md:
explain difference between say and print, .Str and .gist
 08:41
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dalek q: 493f417 | moritz++ | answers.md:
advocacy tweaking
 08:48
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dalek ast: 4214a48 | moritz++ | S32-array/push.t:
RT #109476
 09:16
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dalek q: ecfb825 | moritz++ | questions:
update questions file with answered questions
 10:22
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dalek ecza: 02206bd | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/ (2 files):
Fix postinc and postdec to properly initialize return values from undefined Bool objects. Add Bool.succ and Bool.pred so we get proper results from Bool.
 11:05
colomon So, I just had a flash that the spec and our discussion yesterday was all wrong. 11:06
rn: my $x = Rat; my $y = $x++; say $x.WHAT say $y.WHAT 11:08
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/5BRwSxsJ5C:1␤»
..niecza v19-5-g75130da: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Two terms in a row (method call requires colon or parens to take arguments) at /tmp/7UUpsp6mjE line 1:␤------> my $x = Rat; my $y = $x++; say $x.WHAT ⏏say $y.WHAT␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
colomon rn: my $x = Rat; my $y = $x++; say $x.WHAT; say $y.WHAT 11:09
p6eval niecza v19-5-g75130da: OUTPUT«Rat()␤Int()␤»
..rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Int()␤Int()␤»
colomon by the logic we talked about yesterday, those should both be Rat. The spec and both compilers are wrong.
pugs: my $x = Rat; my $y = $x++; say $x.WHAT; say $y.WHAT
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«Int␤Int␤»
colomon all three compilers
afk # "yoo hoo daddy, you're good at reading..." 11:10
moritz maybe the spec should say "coerce the 0 to the container type if the container type ~~ Numeric' 11:17
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colomon moritz: exactly my thought 11:24
safinaskar rakudo: say 2 + 2
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«4␤»
colomon just read "Knuffle Bunny Too" twice
safinaskar what is this rakudo and p6eval? 11:25
moritz safinaskar: rakudo is a Perl 6 compiler
colomon rakudo (in this context) is one of a series of nicks which call the p6eval program to run a snippet of Perl 6
safinaskar moritz: colomon: thanks
moritz safinaskar: and p6eval is a but that runs rakudo and other perl 6 compilers with some sample input
colomon bot 11:26
moritz n: say 'niecza also exists'
p6eval niecza v19-5-g75130da: OUTPUT«niecza also exists␤»
safinaskar okey, okey
moritz erm, yes. :-)
colomon r: say "and the one letter abbreviations are easier to type"
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«and the one letter abbreviations are easier to type␤»
moritz nrp: say 'and they can be combined :-)' 11:27
p6eval rakudo 39087a, niecza v19-5-g75130da, pugs: OUTPUT«and they can be combined :-)␤»
flussence quick question: does defining a multi method new() in a class always remove access to the built in one? 11:28
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moritz no 11:30
flussence rn: class A { has $.v; multi method new(Str $q) { A.new(:v($q)) }; A.new('q');
p6eval niecza v19-5-g75130da: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Unable to parse block at /tmp/Si132pPjrF line 1:␤------> class A {⏏ has $.v; multi method new(Str $q) { A.n␤Couldn't find final '}'; gave up at /tmp/Si132pPjrF line 1 (EOF):␤------> w(Str $q) { A.new(:…
..rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near ""␤»
flussence rn: class A { has $.v; multi method new(Str $q) { A.new(:v($q)) } }; A.new('q');
p6eval niecza v19-5-g75130da: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot call new; none of these signatures match:␤ A, Str␤ at /tmp/eeAAjaEte6 line 1 (A.new @ 4) ␤ at /tmp/eeAAjaEte6 line 1 (mainline @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3916 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/li…
..rakudo 39087a: ( no output )
flussence oh, maybe it's a nieczabug 11:31
moritz it seems to not declare Mu.new a multi
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colomon moritz: are there tests relying on Mu.new being a multi? 11:50
colomon is trying to see if there is a performance impact of switching right now, but suspects that any spectests which test this must be skipped in niecza right now. 11:52
moritz colomon: I guess there aren't any (or many) tests relying on it
colomon moritz: is it actually required by the spec? I was under the impression it wasn't, but that may have been as a result of hitting this very bug in Niecza.... 11:54
moritz colomon: I don't think it's specced so far, but it should be 11:55
because it's quite important for user-space code
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huf what's the grammatical mood (or perhaps that's not even the right category name) for sentences like "do take a seat!"? 12:13
moritz imperative? 12:14
erm
imperative!
huf i'm actually trying to find out what "do" is doing there 12:15
and what happened to the form "do you take a seat!"
which i found while reading sherlock holmes
moritz it's kind of an emphasis
not sure if there's a grammatical name for it; I'm not a linguist :-)
huf yeah, that's how far i got ;)
i was hoping fishing in this channel would get me a linguist :D
moritz I hope arnsholt (where is that guy when you need him?) or TimToady or so know :-) 12:16
huf i found this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hortative
but it doesnt appear to be what i'm looking for
dalek ecs: 13a69e8 | moritz++ | S32-setting-library/Basics.pod:
[S32] Mu cleanup

Mu is a class, not a role. There is no need for an undefine method. new() must be a multi method		 12:18
moritz colomon: there, now it's specced
colomon moritz: the change appears to not hurt Niecza's performance, so I'd be glad to make it, if you'd change the .... wait, you just did!
moritz colomon: :-)
colomon you actually pushed the change while I was typing that sentence! awesome! 12:19
now if we can just figure out some tests...
moritz I'll add some to S12-construction/new.t 12:20
colomon moritz++
dalek ecza: 5e25209 | (Solomon Foster)++ | lib/CORE.setting:
Make Mu.new a multi method.
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dalek ast: d578243 | moritz++ | S12-construction/new.t:
test that Mu.new is a multi method
 12:23
flussence colomon++ moritz++ 12:25
colomon moritz: in your NewFromMu test, should you be declaring NewFromMu.new to be a multi? 12:28
oh, I see you did that in the next one... 12:29
huh. I declared Mu.new to be a multi method, but it doesn't see to help with the tests at all. 12:31
moritz n: class A { has $.a; multi method new($a) { $.new(:$a) } }; say A.new(a => 42).a 12:33
p6eval niecza v19-6-g02206bd: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot call new; none of these signatures match:␤ A, Any␤ at /tmp/HbOOelBYuG line 1 (mainline @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3918 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3919 (module-CORE @ 5…
moritz that's still the old version
colomon: what does that do on an up-to-date niecza?
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colomon Cannot call new; none of these signatures match: 12:54
A, Any
moritz huh 12:55
looks like it doesn't consider the one from Mu
there isn't another 'new' method in Any, by chance?
masak hi from FPW! 12:56
masak just gave his talk
moritz \o
masak: what did you talk about?
macros?
masak aye. 12:57
slightly refurbished talk.
but basically the same.
colomon heh, there are method news all over the place in Niecza. 13:01
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colomon none of which are Any.new, as far as I can see. 13:01
I need to get going, need to take the little guy to www.traindoctor.com/GLBTE_poster.pdf 13:02
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masak read "GLBTE" as gay/lesbian/bi/trans/extraterrestrial 13:04
huf huh. 13:06
i just assumed it's some lgbt thing too
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colomon "Great Lakes Bay" is a terrible name for our area... as if there is only one bay in the Great Lakes. 13:20
PerlJam colomon: obviously there' only one of any importance ;) 13:21
moritz obviously there's one with first claim on the name :-) 13:23
PerlJam perhaps not first, but certainly most vociferous :)
colomon as far as I know, our area only started using the name in the last decade. but maybe no one else grabbed the URL before them... 13:37
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JimmyZ qore.org/ # Perl-ish language? 13:58
Perl6-ish 13:59
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[hds] The "short description" of the language is way too long. 14:10
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moritz pseudo-methods - so each type now has a "pseudo-class" whose methods can be run on any value of that type (ex: "this is a string".size()) 14:19
erm, how does that differ from any normal method?
anyway, looks interesting 14:20
PerlJam that's a warning sign
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PerlJam "these are faked up method-like things that aren't really methods" 14:21
kresike could use some interpolation 14:24
kresike dislikes printf 14:25
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sirrobert Is there a perl6 equivalent to javascript's ".hasOwnProperty" method? 15:16
(testing to see if an object has a property/method)
timotimo you can check .^methods, can't you? 15:17
moritz .can('methodname')
timotimo that sounds better actually
sirrobert great, thanks
moritz note that attributes are only exposed to the outside via getter/setter methods
sirrobert righto
moritz r: class A { has $.x }; say so A.can('x') 15:18
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«True␤»
moritz r: class A { has $.x }; say A.can('x')
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«x␤»
moritz r: class A { has $.x }; say A.can('x').WHAT
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Parcel()␤»
moritz r: class A { has $.x }; say A.can('x')[0].WHAT
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Method()␤»
sirrobert huh... what's a parcel?
moritz parenthesis cell. Something list-y 15:19
if you write (1, 2, 3) that's a Parcel
sirrobert ah, ok
PerlJam except it's not the parens that make the parcel
moritz and it's immutable, unless you put variables into it 15:20
my ($x, $y) = (2, 3)# here the ($x, $y) is an immutable parcel, but you can still assign to the variables inside the parcel
timotimo oh, interesting. .can('x') will give all multi-methods called x, yes? 15:21
sirrobert hmmm... interesting.
moritz timotimo: I... think so
r: class A { multi method x() { }; multi method x() { }}; say A.can('x').elems
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«1␤»
moritz hm, no
those are grouped inside a proto method
r: class A { multi method x() { }; multi method x() { }}; say A.can('x').candidates.elems
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«No such method 'candidates' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/J767OIoA88:1␤␤»
moritz r: class A { multi method x() { }; multi method x() { }}; say A.can('x')[0].candidates.elems 15:22
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«2␤»
moritz r: class A { method x() { } }; class B is A { method x {} }; say B.can('x').elems
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«2␤»
moritz ah
it returns all methods from the class hierarchy in mro order
sirrobert mro? 15:23
moritz method resolution order
sirrobert ah
wow, that's coool
moritz r: say Str.^mro
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Str() Cool() Any() Mu()␤»
timotimo and for each candidate i can query which class it comes from, yes? 15:24
moritz hmmm
r: class A { method x() { } }; class B is A { method x {} }; say B.can('x')[0].signature.parameters[0].perl
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«No such method 'parameters' for invocant of type 'Signature'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/Ny1aRJOFpj:1␤␤»
moritz r: class A { method x() { } }; class B is A { method x {} }; say B.can('x')[0].signature.params[0].perl 15:25
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«B ␤»
timotimo also: what's the use of two multi methods with the exact same signature?
moritz r: class A { method x() { } }; class B is A { method x {} }; say B.can('x')[0].signature.params[0].type
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«B()␤»
moritz that way you can get at the invocant type
timotimo will the one defined earlier be used and it could delegate to the next one will nextsame or something like that?
moritz timotimo: no, there will be an ambiguous dispatch 15:26
timotimo: that was just for illustration
timotimo ambiguous dispatch means the compiler will yell at me?
moritz timotimo: although you can call $obj.*x() and call all matching methods
yes
r: multi a() { }; multi a() { }; a()
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Ambiguous call to 'a'; these signatures all match:␤:()␤:()␤␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/AIk854ml5d:1␤␤»
timotimo perl is weird sometimes :)
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moritz is also weird sometimes 15:27
:-)
timotimo if i can use .* to call all matching methods, how do i do it with multi subs?
moritz you cannot
timotimo OK
moritz except...
you can abuse subs as methods 15:28
timotimo r: class A { method a() { say "foo"; 1; }; method a() { say "blergh"; 10; }; say A.new().*a()
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Package 'A' already has a method 'a' (did you mean to declare a multi-method?)␤at /tmp/MrSB0850m_:1␤»
timotimo r: class A { multi a() { say "foo"; 1; }; multi a() { say "blergh"; 10; }; say A.new().*a()
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near ""␤»
timotimo r: class A { multi a() { say "foo"; 1; }; multi a() { say "blergh"; 10; }; } say A.new().*a()
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/updzJbhHaP:1␤»
moritz r: multi a($, $?) { 1 }; multi a($) { 2 }; say Any.*&a()
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Ambiguous call to 'a'; these signatures all match:␤:(, )␤:()␤␤ in sub a at /tmp/kJ7OMJcERz:1␤ in method dispatch:<.*> at src/gen/CORE.setting:864␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/kJ7OMJcERz:1␤␤»
timotimo r: class A { multi a() { say "foo"; 1; }; multi a() { say "blergh"; 10; }; }; say A.new().*a()
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«␤»
moritz hm, seems .* doesn't mix with sub-as-method abuse
timotimo .* also doesn't seem to work at all 15:29
moritz timotimo: you need to write 'multi method'
timotimo oh, ok
r: class A { multi method a() { say "foo"; 1; }; multi method a() { say "blergh"; 10; }; }; say A.new().*a()
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Ambiguous call to 'a'; these signatures all match:␤:(A , Mu *%_)␤:(A , Mu *%_)␤␤ in method a at src/gen/CORE.setting:320␤ in method dispatch:<.*> at src/gen/CORE.setting:864␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/UPlVRbwFBn:1␤␤»
moritz timotimo: right now you have two multi subs, and .* cannot find any matching methods, and is happy with it
hm
maybe I'm wrong about how .* works 15:30
and it only works on only-methods
timotimo how does "call every candidate" translate to only methods? will it call each candidate in the mro? 15:31
moritz yes
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kresike bye all 15:40
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sirrobert does Test.pm have some version of no_plan? 15:57
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pmichaud good morning, #perl6 16:26
sirrobert: (no_plan) I think it's 'plan *'
see lib/Test.pm:32
GlitchMr perl6: my $variable = 'the cake'; print $$$$$$$variable; 16:27
pmichaud # "plan 'no_plan';" is now "plan *;"
# It is also the default if nobody calls plan at all
p6eval rakudo 39087a, niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«the cake»
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GlitchMr So, pugs was removed? 16:27
pmichaud pugs: my $variable = 'the cake'; print $$$$$$$variable;
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«the cake»
pmichaud pugs is just not in the default 'perl6:' set
but you can also do
GlitchMr I guess it's because I convert scalar into scalar
pmichaud npr: my $variable = 'the cake'; print $$$$$$$variable; 16:28
p6eval rakudo 39087a, niecza v19-7-g5e25209, pugs: OUTPUT«the cake»
sorear good * #perl6 16:30
mmm npr.
pmichaud moritz++ # faq.perl6.org 16:32
tadzik hello #perl6 16:34
sorear hello tadzik.
dalek o: d3123ea | tadzik++ | bin/ufo:
Make it work after &dir changes
 16:35
pmichaud ...are we sure the &dir changes are going to stay?
tadzik I feel sort of uneasy about them 16:36
especially the "what used to work now needs basename()" bit
16:36 [hds] left
pmichaud yeah 16:36
tadzik r: for ^1 { when 1 { .path } } 16:38
p6eval rakudo 39087a: ( no output )
tadzik r: for ^1 { when 1 { say .path } }
p6eval rakudo 39087a: ( no output )
masak doesn't seem to be reproducible.
maybe it's been fix'd in recent rakudos. 16:39
tadzik no, this one doesn't work either
hold on
pmichaud right now I'm feeling more like I want to leave &dir as it was (perhaps working towards phasing it out entirely) and introduce a new function or method that is the improved version.
masak +1
tadzik for Range.new(0, 1) -> $p { when $p { say $_.perl; say $_.path } } 16:40
masak &dir has been widely popular, but I think we can do better.
tadzik r: for Range.new(0, 1) -> $p { when $p { say $_.perl; say $_.path } }
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/bhcZACNkRT:1␤␤Null PMC access in find_method('perl')␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/bhcZACNkRT:1␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:5079␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.set…
tadzik there we are
masak submits rakuodbug
rakudobug* :)
pmichaud ...why is that a bug, ooc?
masak pmichaud: Null PMC access
tadzik NPA
pmichaud oh, I see.
masak r: for ^1 -> $p { when $p { .foo } } 16:41
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/HzMxDYTCaC:1␤␤Null PMC access in find_method('foo')␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/HzMxDYTCaC:1␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:5079␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.sett…
timotimo that's more interesting
pmichaud ...variable $a, hmm. 16:42
tadzik that's usual 16:43
it says random names when it doesn't know the real one
pmichaud they aren't "random"
tadzik I've noticed that a few times already
yeah, I know
pmichaud they're internal to CORE
tadzik I think it catches the name... right
pmichaud r: use fatal; for ^1 -> $p { when $p { .foo } }
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/VxGqGx5w3a:1␤␤Null PMC access in find_method('foo')␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/VxGqGx5w3a:1␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:5079␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.sett…
pmichaud oh, it's the .ACCEPTS bug 16:45
masak oh?
pmichaud sure, it's the when $p that is attempting to convert Any into a number
in order to smart match it against $p
masak the interesting thing is that the Range, the 'when' and the $_.foo call are all irreducible parts of triggering the bug.
remove any of them, and the Null PMC Access disappears. 16:46
pmichaud r: for (0,1) -> $p { when $p { .foo } }
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/VgCIK_kuoP:1␤␤Null PMC access in find_method('foo')␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/VgCIK_kuoP:1␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:5079␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.sett…
masak maybe not. :)
pmichaud r: for 0 -> $p { when $p { .foo } }
masak ok, the Range is not essential, then.
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/2BcvX6lmnC:1␤␤Null PMC access in find_method('foo')␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/2BcvX6lmnC:1␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:5079␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.sett…
masak huh.
tadzik: I'm pretty sure we tested that.
hm. 16:47
pmichaud given 0 -> $p { when $p { .foo } }
r: given 0 -> $p { when $p { .foo } }
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/SJ1JbHQSej:1␤␤Null PMC access in find_method('foo')␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/SJ1JbHQSej:1␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/SJ1JbHQSej:1␤␤»
tadzik masak: yeah, same. Odd
pmichaud (-> $p { when $p { .foo } }).(0)
r: (-> $p { when $p { .foo } }).(0)
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/5zdWF1O_Fa:1␤␤No such method 'foo' for invocant of type 'Any'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/5zdWF1O_Fa:1␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/5zdWF1O_Fa:1␤␤»
masak there. it disappeared.
I think iteration is involved somehow, anyway.
pmichaud well, not with 'given' 16:48
there's no iteration with the .given
masak hm, troo.
so, why does it trigger with 'for' and 'given', but not with that last one, with a block?
pmichaud r: my $ps = -> $p { when $p { .foo } }; $ps(0);
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/Ap9xU9dVVo:1␤␤No such method 'foo' for invocant of type 'Any'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/Ap9xU9dVVo:1␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/Ap9xU9dVVo:1␤␤»
pmichaud 0.map( -> $p { when $p { .foo } }).eager 16:49
r: 0.map( -> $p { when $p { .foo } }).eager
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/JRkifpk737:1␤␤No such method 'foo' for invocant of type 'Any'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/JRkifpk737:1␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:5079␤ in method reify at src/gen…
pmichaud the NPA has to be something in the way the closures are being built when part of 'for' or 'given' 16:50
which means it's a bug in <xblock>
(in Actions.pm)
here's another, then
r: if 1 -> $p { when $p { .foo } }
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/C8Mba0rmGT:1␤␤»
pmichaud hmm.
r: while 1 -> $p { when $p { .foo }; } 16:51
oops
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«(timeout)use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/h2Ig9XgW2m:1␤␤use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/h2Ig9XgW2m:1␤␤use of uninitialized variable $a of type Any in nu…
pmichaud okay, so, the "unintialized variable $a..." is coming from an ACCEPTS call 16:52
I'm guessing it's this one:
src/core/Numeric.pm:4: multi method ACCEPTS(Numeric:D: $a) {
The NPA is because the pointy block is somehow getting the wrong outer $_ 16:53
masak ah. 16:54
pmichaud but only when being used as part of 'for' or 'given' (so far... could be other structures)
r: $_ = 'hello'; if 1 -> $p { when $p { .say } } 16:55
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '⏏hello' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:9480␤ in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2509␤ in sub infix:<==> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2509␤ in …
pmichaud r: $_ = Bool; if 1 -> $p { when $p { .say } } 16:56
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Bool in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/amepJyEJYf:1␤␤»
pmichaud r: Bool.say
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Bool()␤»
pmichaud *there*
masak \o/ 16:57
pmichaud the .say got a $_ that isn't the one with the Bool 16:58
even though the one with the Bool is the one that was used for the smartmatching 'when'
masak I'm lost, but I'm including this in the report anyway :P
pmichaud please do, it's pretty well golfed. 16:59
masak pmichaud++
pmichaud or, more directly:
r: $_ = Bool; .say ; if 1 -> $p { when $p { .say } }
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Bool()␤use of uninitialized variable $a of type Bool in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/aXNaM4d6Ty:1␤␤»
pmichaud the second .say isn't the same as the first.
masak & 17:01
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pmichaud phenny: tell moritz should the faq be listed on perl6.org somewhere? (e.g., the front page might be good?) 17:18
phenny pmichaud: I'll pass that on when moritz is around.
sirrobert is there a difference between .pm and .pm6? 17:19
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moritz pmichaud: faq.perl6.org was kind of an underground project so far 17:27
phenny moritz: 17:18Z <pmichaud> tell moritz should the faq be listed on perl6.org somewhere? (e.g., the front page might be good?)
pmichaud moritz: okay, that's fine with me.
moritz pmichaud: if people like it, we should link to it. If not, we should improve it :-)
pmichaud I'll work on the improving it part a bit. 17:28
I like it, fwiw.
moritz \o/
I've also got a private email from finanalyst who liked it too
17:30 xinming_ left
sirrobert What's a good paradigm for writing a class that has provides a standard set of objects. 17:31
for example: an HTTP status class that gives you objects like $status.code; $status.definition
(and there's a defined list). Or error codes
17:32 smash left 17:33 Je left
sisar sirrobert: afaik, there is no difference between .pm and .pm6. Modules can have either extension. 17:33
giving Perl6 modules a .pm6 is (maybe) a good idea. ( for eg .STD.pm6) 17:35
sirrobert sisar: thanks =)
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sisar moritz: in S32/Exception, the X::Hash::Store::OddNumber entry, "Thrown when hash assignment finds a trailing hash key with a value."... s/with/without ? 17:39
pmichaud just as an initial comment, I find it very difficult to decipher the X::... entries in CORE.setting when I encounter them. 17:40
it makes the code much less readable, imho. 17:43
a good example is Str.pm:547, which basically reads
else {
X::Str::Match::x.new(got => $x).throw;
}
I have no idea what error condition is being detected there. Compare to:
else { 17:45
die "Invalid argument to :x, must be Int or Range, got type {$x.^name}";
}
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pmichaud I understand (and mostly agree with) the rationale for typed exceptions... but it feels like we could do much better. 17:46
sisar pmichaud: you seem to have the same question which oetiker++ asks here: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/59#d...on_r505731 17:48
pmichaud I think I would *much* prefer something like
well.... maybe not
the advantage of having exception classes declared centrally is that it's easier to find them all and perhaps provide localizations 17:49
at least, that's the advantage I would envision.
Still, "X::Str::Match::x" tells me very little about the exception being raised. 17:50
sisar pmichaud: yes that is one big advantage, but it tells very little... yes, what you said.
flussence it's hard for me to make sense of that example even in context :/ 17:52
why's the type check done that way, and not in the signature? 17:53
moritz because type checks from signatures give very unspecific error messages
flussence ah
sorear o/ moritz 17:54
moritz \o sorear
flussence would be nice if there were a way to say "throw this instead of the generic exception in this scope"...
pmichaud r: $_ = Bool; .say ; if 1 -> $p { when $p { .say } } 17:56
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Bool()␤use of uninitialized variable $a of type Bool in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/0juX88KhmQ:1␤␤»
pmichaud r: $_ = Bool; .say ; if 1 -> $p { when $p { say 'matched'; .say; } }
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Bool()␤use of uninitialized variable $a of type Bool in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/Xp2KfnzIoF:1␤␤»
pmichaud r: $_ = Bool; .say ; unless 0 -> $p { when $p { say 'matched'; .say; } } 17:57
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«Bool()␤use of uninitialized variable $a of type Bool in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/quU8s4LhiS:1␤␤matched␤Bool()␤»
pmichaud never mind, my earlier 'if' example didn't prove anything.
moritz flussence: that's what CATCH is for 17:58
flussence: but it's usually a terrible idea
pmichaud r: $_ = Bool; for ^1 -> $p { when $p { say 'matched'; $_.say; } };
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $a of type Bool in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/zEMNrAQfoT:1␤␤matched␤Null PMC access in find_method('say')␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/zEMNrAQfoT:1␤ in method reify at src/gen/CORE.setting:5079␤ in method reify at src/gen/…
moritz flussence: because you can never pin-point the location sufficiently enoguh
flussence: you only seldomly see the actual location of an exception in a lexical scope; usually it's from a dynamic scope inside a lexical scope 17:59
which means that anything "down the stack" gets caught
pmichaud updates #113904. 18:04
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TimToady wonders what will happen if the next implementation is named "rpn" or some such... 18:23
pmichaud We'll adjust somehow. :)
au npr: say [*] 1..3 18:25
p6eval rakudo 39087a, niecza v19-7-g5e25209, pugs: OUTPUT«6␤»
18:31 pupoque joined
pmichaud au: o/ 18:33
sorear au!! o/
au o/ 18:40
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sirrobert What are the class methods to use to define string context for print and say? 18:42
sorear .Str and .gist, respectively 18:43
sirrobert ah, thanks
sorear it's amusing to see je and thou_.
thou_ o/ 18:44
18:44 thou_ is now known as thou
TimToady "do" is a proverb that, in "do take a seat", serves as an intensifier, since the "take" is also there 18:44
huf hmm 18:45
TimToady: when did the form "do you take a seat" fall out of usage? is it even the same thing?
or a more intense version of the same
TimToady is not a historical linguist; could never remember the examples... 18:47
huf :)
sorear although for completeness we need tu and I
pmichaud these spectests look wrong to me... 18:48
huf so this is still just... imperative mood, with an intensifier?
pmichaud # numeric context on undefined values
ok($foo == 0, "Any == 0");
ok(@foo[0] == 0, "Array Any == 0");
anyone agree?
18:48 daxim left
sirrobert huf: yes; the "do" adds the connotation of insistance 18:48
pmichaud (I think comparing Any == 0 should produce a warning or failure)
sirrobert huf: they're denotatively equivalent 18:49
sorear pmichaud: it is very traditional Perl behavior that undefined values act as "" or 0 depending on context
pmichaud: warning, not failure
pmichaud sorear: it's also traditional that they warn.
sorear ok() ignores warnings
TimToady "do" is perhaps more properly called a "propredicate", since its antecedent is the whole action: "
"Shall I take a seat?" "Please do."
it stands in for "take a seat", not just "take"
pmichaud note that failures can also act as "" or 0 depending on context 18:50
ok() doesn't ignore warnings, fwiw. 18:52
(it doesn't fail on warnings, but they still show up) 18:53
I'm fine if we say that type objects warn (versus fail) on stringification/numification. I'd just like to know the use case or rationale for treating them differently from other forms of numification. 18:54
I think I'd also like a pragma that increases the strictness of such numification; i.e., that treats numification of undef as a fail instead of a warn (but still falls short of being fatal) 18:55
btw, the context for this is getting Any ~~ 0 to dtrt 18:56
sirrobert What's the best way to implement a two-way lookup in perl6? 18:57
instead of a hash (values and keys are both unique and should be able to look each other up) 18:58
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TimToady my %revhash = %hash.invert; # if there are no dups 19:00
sisar just recompiled parrot, rakudo, nqp from scratch because of the oh-so annoying 'Wrong or missing version of dependency...' error :(
sirrobert TimToady: thanks
sisar "perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot" was not able to remove the "Wrong or missing ...." error. I had to reclone everyting and build from scratch. 19:02
pmichaud could be a missing dependency somewhere. 19:03
sisar pmichaud: like ?
pmichaud sisar: I don't know; trying it with MODULE_DEBUG set would probably give more clues. 19:04
I'd also need to know what you were running.
(i.e., what 'perl6' command were you doing?)
sisar pmichaud: now ican't try it, I cleaned everything.
pmichaud: i did (more) 19:05
moritz you might need rm -rf ~/.perl6/lib install/ ~/.panda/
pmichaud sisar: right... so, we can find out more the next time it occurs. But "Wrong or missing version of dependency" by itself isn't sufficient to know what dependency may be broken. :)
19:06 je left
moritz the proper error message would be "Trying to load $pirfile for module $module, but it was precompiled with a different rakudo version" 19:06
pmichaud (Any.Numeric) another possibility is that Any.Numeric always returns a Failure, but it's marked as already handled so that the exception isn't thrown. 19:07
TimToady "but it was compiled with version X instead of version Y"
pmichaud moritz: +1
TimToady: +1
sisar pmichaud: oh that error I have in my terminal log. It always says "Missing or wrong version of dependency 'src/stage2/QRegex.nqp' current instr.: '' pc 496 (src/gen/perl6.pir:200) (src/main.nqp src/gen/main-version.nqp:0)" 19:08
pmichaud although "version X" doesn't quite fit in this context.
it's not version so much as "compilation instance"
sisar: I'd still need to see what was loading it and where.
sisar pmichaud: ok, next time I encounter it, i'll use the MODULE_DEBUG option. How do I set it ? 19:09
pmichaud export MODULE_DEBUG=1
I think
moritz TimToady: that might cause confusion when the two different versions don't have different version identifier
export RAKUDO_MODULE_DEBUG=1
TimToady then the version identifier doesn't identify a version :P
moritz well 19:10
that's correct
sisar pmichaud, moritz: these are env variables ?
pmichaud but it was precompiled with a different rakudo instance
moritz sisar: yes
sisar ok
thhanks
pmichaud "...but it was precompiled with a different rakudo binary'
moritz +1 19:11
pmichaud although in some cases it also has to be "...but it was precompiled with a different nqp binary" 19:12
actually, it's not the binaries that make the difference.
sirrobert what can I read about best practices for throwing errors?
moritz sirrobert: there's not much literature on the subject yet 19:13
sirrobert: what do you want to know?
sirrobert I've got a dictionary that basically has valid codes and their meanings. I want to throw an error if someone tries to use a code that's not in the dictionary.
pmichaud "Trying to load module $module with signature $sig, but the one I found at $pirfile has signature $sig." 19:14
*that's* really what we want.
sirrobert if (!%CODE.exists($code)) { ...? }
I don't even know what syntax I should use inside the if there =)
moritz class X::YourApp::NoSuchCode is Exception { has $.code; method message { "trying to access YourApp-code $.code, but it does not exist" } }; 19:15
pmichaud sirrobert: p5ish would be die "error" unless %CODE.exists($code)
moritz if (!%CODE.exists($code)) { X::YourApp::NoSuchCode.new(:$code).throw }
sirrobert what is X::? is that something I should fill in?
pmichaud X is the exceptions namespace
sirrobert ohh
moritz no, it's the namespace we use for exceptions 19:16
pmichaud it's a literal 'X'
moritz YourApp is something you should fill in :-)
sirrobert heh nod
it's just in library class. I suppose I can make it arbitrarily long? =)
pmichaud moritz: does fail X::YourApp::NoSuchCode work?
moritz pmichaud: fail X::YourApp::NoSuchCode.new works
pmichaud how about X::YourApp::NoSuchCode.new.fail ? 19:17
moritz that's harder to do
doesn't work right now
pmichaud oh yes, that would be quite a bit harder.
TimToady sirrobert: one should generally fail rather than throw if there's any chance the caller wants to handle failure that way
pmichaud yes, if we're keeping Failure, then the canonical "error handler" should be "fail something" and not X::Something.new.throw 19:18
I'm fine if it's "fail X::Something.new"... but that seems to want better syntactic sugar to me 19:19
fail X::Something, code=>$code, msg=>$msg # maybe
sorear still does not quite grok fail semantics
sirrobert TimToady: Ok... how does one handle a fail() in general? 19:20
TimToady the caller can decide, by testing with //, or by "use fatal", or by letting the failure hit a sink or an attempt to use the bogus value as a real value (a lazy throw, as it were) 19:22
sirrobert sounds dangerous =)
TimToady it lets you treat failure as data rather than control flow, if you want to 19:23
pmichaud it's a "soft fail".
as opposed to something like "die" which is a "hard fail" that has to be caught and handled immediately 19:24
TimToady this becomes more important as parallelism introduces more implicit control flowish ideas
sirrobert ah
pmichaud ...this feels like a good faq entry :)
I need lunch now but will write one upon returning from lunch.
sirrobert I was trying to figure out a use case for treating the failure as data (in a non TRY-CATCH fashion)
thanks, pmichaud 19:25
pmichaud TimToady: if you have an opinion on Mu.Numeric doing warn versus fail, it would help me to resolve 3.ACCEPTS(Any)
bbiaw
moritz currently fail() is more dangerous than die() (in rakudo) becase we don't have sink context which would cause the failures to throw
sorear there are a lot of unanswered questions about sink context. 19:26
also it's one of those features that you have to pay for whether or not you use, which always grates on my nerves.
sirrobert Find out more in Stephen King's next thriller.... Sinkholes!
pmichaud I can certainly get Rakudo to have a sink context quickly enough, I think. 19:27
TimToady sorear: I don't see that. Pure FP never has sink contexts, since its point is induce side effects.
lunch & 19:28
moritz pmichaud: I'd appreciate that 19:29
pmichaud: I have tried and failed, but that was mostly due to my lack of understanding of rakudo's codegen
sorear TimToady: I'm not necessarily talking about pure FP; also imperative code that uses assignments a lot but never fail()
pmichaud: are you going to implement the version of fail() that eagerizes lists and searches them for Failures? 19:30
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sorear pmichaud: sorry, the version of sink() that... 19:30
moritz oh, Exception.throw isn't hard to do either 19:37
erm, .fail 19:38
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dalek kudo/nom: 1180041 | moritz++ | / (2 files):
Exception.fail
 19:39
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ChibaPet Ah, many more people here. =drops into lurk-and-learn mode= 19:42
flussence more compared to what? :)
ChibaPet Compared to #perl6 on MAGnet
moritz that's not hard to do :-) 19:43
sirrobert one more: can someone explain the first argument to .bless?
I just copied out of the perl book, but I don't understand the asterisk.
flussence I assume it's the same as perl5, so the asterisk means the class being constructed 19:44
sirrobert yeah, I assumed the same thing, but ... would rather work from some more concrete knowledge =) 19:45
in case there's subtlety.
moritz sirrobert: think of it as a piece of malloc()ed memory that is to be turned into an object; a * means "do the allocation for me"
pmichaud in this case, asterisk means "please create a new instance for me" rather than "use this instance I already created"
sirrobert hmmm ok, I can handle that...
is that true anywhere? 19:46
or just inside bless?
pmichaud asterisk in general means "whatever"
sirrobert ok
pmichaud it's up to the thing being called to decide what "whatever" means
thus 5..* is "5 up to whatever" (Infinity)
sirrobert that's pretty cool.
moritz 5 + * # 5 plus whatever, creates a closure that adds 5 to its argument
pmichaud @a[*-1] is "the last element" or "one less than whatever the biggest one is"
sirrobert r: 5 + * 19:47
p6eval rakudo 39087a: ( no output )
sirrobert how would I *use* that?
pmichaud r: my $x = 5 + *; say $x(20)
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«25␤»
sirrobert ahh
pmichaud r: my $x = 5 + *; say $x(3)
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«8␤»
pmichaud it's a closure.
sirrobert that's super nice
moritz r: say map *+5, 1, 2, 3
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«6 7 8␤»
pmichaud moritz++ # better example 19:48
sirrobert I get the closure aspect... just didn't get the syntax for using it =)
pmichaud you use it like any other block or closure, then :)
sirrobert moritz: nice
moritz r: say (1..10).grep: * %% 2
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«2 4 6 8 10␤»
sirrobert well, closure in general is broader than a block ...
moritz right
sirrobert there's no particular syntax associated
moritz but usually it only makes sense to generate small closures with the * syntax 19:49
sirrobert yeah
moritz and usually blocks are used when small, anonymous pieces of code are needed
pmichaud not sure I understand "closure in general is broader than a block" in a p6 sense... but... whatever :-)
sirrobert r: say * + *, 1, 3
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«WhateverCode.new()13␤»
moritz pmichaud: routines are also closures
r: say (* + *)(1, 3) 19:50
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«4␤»
pmichaud moritz: routines are also blocks
sirrobert ah, kinda lispy for the grouping
pmichaud well, maybe not.
moritz r: say Routine ~~ Block
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«True␤»
pmichaud yes, Routines are also Blocks :-)
moritz r: my $c = * + *; say $c(1, 3)
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«4␤»
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sirrobert closure is just the principle of preservation of context past the scope's accessibility 19:50
pmichaud sirrobert: but that happens for all blocks in Perl 6, at least conceptually 19:51
moritz sirrobert: that's a nice way to put it
sirrobert moritz: thanks =)
pmichaud: true, but the reverse isn't true
pmichaud: (not necessarily, I mean)
pmichaud ...reverse isn't true?
sirrobert just because all blocks offer closures doesn't mean all closures create blocks 19:52
that's all I meant =)
pmichaud that's the part I don't understand (in a P6 context)
r: say (* + 1) ~~ Block 19:53
p6eval rakudo 39087a: OUTPUT«False␤»
pmichaud okay, now I understand it.
moritz pmichaud: fwiw I've emailed back and forth with szabgab++ for feedback on my &dir experiments (because he seems to use &dir at the moment). He likes it better than what we have now, and had some small ideas for further improvements
pmichaud moritz: do your &dir experiments keep some level of API compatibility with 2012.06 ? 19:54
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moritz oh, speaking of &dir, that's also a backwards compatiblity break that wasn't already in 2012.06 19:54
pmichaud: some level, yes
pmichaud: they return Cool objects that stringify to the short name
pmichaud that's likely sufficient for me.
moritz whereas 2012.06 returns strings that are short names
ok
then I'll work on getting it into nom 19:55
pmichaud at this point I don't think &dir has to return Str; it just has to return something that acts like a Str (which Cool would do)
moritz oh, and I should do the star release this weekend, unless somebody else wants the honor
pmichaud sorear: (sink) I'm thinking of getting enough of sink context in place to handle the Failure case; eager might be a bit more than a first cut implementation. 19:56
moritz it's all prepared; just needs some final glances, maybe a second look through the announcement, and a 'make VERSION=2012.07' + tar czf
pmichaud but I also think we may have made a fundamental misassumption on sink, so I'm trying to figure out how to illustrate/word the misassumption 19:57
that's after lunch
moritz: +1 to a star release whenever you're ready
sorear pmichaud: yeah, I just get a bit antsy about some-function-which-incidentally-returns-a-million-element-array; 2 could do a lot more work than the user expects
pmichaud oh, I'm not too worried about million element arrays. It should be costly only in the case of function that generates a million-element-array 19:58
in which case you really *do* want the function to be fully executed, to get its side effects.
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pmichaud i.e., function that returns 1..1000000 can be cheap in sink context. 19:59
sorear what if the function is like sub modinplace($arr, $ix, $v) { $arr[$ix] = $v; $arr; }
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sorear and then the user does modinplace($bigarr, 1000, 2); 19:59
pmichaud but function that returns 1..100000.map(&block) should do the full thing
sorear (this is a contrived example, but I beleive it illustrates a real problem that will wind up on the 'Perl 6 Warts' FAQ if we aren't careful) 20:00
pmichaud sorear: I don't see how the example is problematic in sink context.
sorear pmichaud: sink needs to rescan $bigarr for Failures 20:01
moritz more than that
sink context empties arrays, no?
pmichaud not in this context, no.
sorear the user would have expected that sequence of operations to be constant in the size of $bigarr
moritz there are multiple sink contexts?
pmichaud I don't understand "sink content empties arrays"
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moritz my @a = 1, 2, 3; @a; say @a; # what output do you expect? 20:02
pmichaud I expect 1 2 3
sorear I expect 1 2 3
moritz ok
the never mind
pmichaud sink context eagerly evaluates things. in the case of an iterator, it may throw away the results of the iteration 20:03
but arrays aren't iterators
sorear When would sink() ever see a naked iterator? 20:04
moritz ok
20:04 brrt left
dalek ecs: 9a73239 | moritz++ | S32-setting-library/Exception.pod:
[S32::Exception] add Exception.fail
 20:04
ecs: 010e028 | moritz++ | S32-setting-library/Exception.pod:
[S32::Exception] error message typos spotted by Nick Glencross
pmichaud sink on a list could get propagated to its iterator
sink would not likely see an iterator directly.
but this gets back to my notion that we have a misassumption on sink context.... and I really need lunch so I'll be back in a while 20:05
afk for real this time bbl I really mean it good bye
moritz pmichaud: don't let us hold you off
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sorear 'we have a misassumption on sink context' yay, I'm not the only one who thinks this 20:05
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sirrobert I can't seem to get "diag" to output anything in Test.pm 20:22
Any ideas why?
sorear r: use Test; diag "Moo" 20:23
p6eval rakudo 118004: OUTPUT«# Moo␤»
sirrobert in my actual tests, it doesn't output anything.
sorear npr: use Test; diag "Moo"
p6eval rakudo 118004, niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«# Moo␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«pugs: *** Unsafe function 'use' called under safe mode␤ at /tmp/WQVp8fws1j line 1, column 1␤»
sorear sirrobert: how are you running your tests? 20:24
sirrobert I ran ufo, then doing make test
moritz the harness catches those, I believe
sirrobert which calls: prove -e 'perl6' -r t/
moritz if you run perl6 -Iblib/lib t/yourtestfile.t you should see it
sorear that's your problem.
prove hides diagnostics
it's just intended to give a summary 20:25
you could run prove -v -e perl6 -r t/
that will give you all the diagnostics - maybe more than you expect, Test.pm calls diag() internally for all failing tests 20:26
moritz finds that very useful
sorear I like prove -v because it automatically color-codes the output
you could also run the tests directly with moritz' command
sirrobert working on getting the right dirs... 20:27
there we go 20:28
had to set my env correctly.
thanks, both.
how can I coerce a string '123' into the int? 20:30
moritz +'123'
or '123'.Int
sirrobert ok
masak evening, #perl6 20:34
moritz \o masak
how's fpw?
sirrobert hey
masak moritz: great.
moritz: spent the evening with jnthn and tadzik at a cozy restaurant by the riverside. 20:35
moritz: it's bloody hot here, but the evenings are manageable.
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moritz masak: I hope you'll like that commit... 20:44
dalek kudo/nom: 36922f3 | moritz++ | src/Perl6/Metamodel/MultiMethodContainer.pm:
improve error message for missing proto in the setting
kudo/nom: 9394f7d | moritz++ | / (2 files):
&dir rework part 2

  &dir now returns IO::File and IO::Dir objects.
It restores partial backwards compatiblity by returning Cool objects that stringify to the basename, but still has a .path method that returns the full path, enabling the things that masak++ wanted to achieve with his first rework. You can still call file test methods on the result objects.
Apologies to everyone who has to update their &dir-using code a second time within two weeks, but I firmly believe this is a good way forward.
moritz tomorrow I'll update ufo and File::Tools, unless somebody beats me to it
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pmichaud back again 20:49
in general, I suspect that sink context should not cause Failures in scalar variables to throw
that would resolve the issue with sorear++'s example
the fact that a Failure is stored into a scalar variable is really enough to say "it's safe to handle this later" 20:50
moritz that sounds interesting
my $f = open 'nosuchfile'; $f; # lives 20:51
my $f: = open 'nosuchfile'; $f; # dies
masak moritz++ # &dir
moritz I know, it's the "doctor, it hurts when I do this" stuff
pmichaud yeah, if you're doing a bind, you're already saying "I know what I'm doing here."
(a low-level bind)
moritz we just need to document that :-) 20:52
masak moritz: just from reading the commit comment, it does sound like the best of two worlds.
moritz masak: I hope it is. I've put a fair amount of thinking and work into it 20:53
pmichaud should I put a blank notice into the announcement(s) that the IO system is likely to undergo some changes in the next few releases?
tadzik good evening
pmichaud s/blank/blanket/
sorear pmichaud: doesn't that still leave the issue with repeated rescanning of arrays for bound failures?
moritz pmichaud: yes; but we should also document stuff that'll continue to work
pmichaud sorear: not sure about "bound failures"
sorear: afaic, I think of arrays as containers 20:54
and a container somewhat implies "you don't have to scan me for Failures"
masak almost said "hm, maybe I should thoughtlessly break more stuff so that smart and ambitious people will consider how to Do Them Right..." :P 20:55
pmichaud the fact that a container is holding a Failure shouldn't be enough to make that Failure want to throw.
masak s/Them/It/. 'stuff' is singular, I guess.
my ability to parse French in real time still surprises and shocks me a bit.
sorear pmichaud: what does sink [ map { maybe_fails($_) }, 1..* ] do?
pmichaud: I am supposing you want to make this a difference between List and Arraty 20:56
pmichaud I'm more looking at it as a difference between contained and not-contained
but if that sink [ ... ] didn't throw any failures, it wouldn't bother me. 20:57
moritz masak: heh, ufo doesn't even need any changes after the last change 20:58
pmichaud in some sense having the brackets there is like doing a bunch of $a[0] = maybe_fails(1); $a[1] = maybe_fails(2); ...
and assignments shouldn't throw failures
moritz masak: but one can remove some redundant code
dalek o: 1593c6b | moritz++ | bin/ufo:
simplify &dirwalk code after last rakudo &dir update
 20:59
masak moritz++ 21:01
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sorear pmichaud: what about sink do { my @foo; @foo[0] := maybe_fails(1) } 21:01
masak tadzik++ fixed ufo earlier today, because it turned out some dunce had committed a &dirwalk "fix" that actually broke the thing.
pmichaud I'm not sure that a binding should throw failures, either.
tadzik hah, funny, just recently we've talked abot basename-alike being core-ish 21:02
moritz++ making stuff sane
moritz tadzik: maybe you want to change File::Find to return IO::File and IO::Dir objects instead of file File::Find::Result 21:03
pmichaud but since there's a := there, I'd be okay if it threw. That's a case that I'm willing to postpone a decision upon for the moment, unless there's a clear use case where it's a problem.
moritz tadzik: now that we have 'em
sorear pmichaud: should a List which contains failures throw?
masak so much of Perl 6 development is investing brain cycles in making stuff sane. I like that.
pmichaud sorear: if the List is being evaluated eagerly, I could see that. 21:04
tadzik moritz: I shall look into that tomorrow
moritz tadzik: gist.github.com/3020637 that's a patch to make it work
(but still uses File::Find::Result)
pmichaud I can imagine that a List being evaluated eagerly and sunk would throw any Failures it encounters. 21:05
tadzik moritz: do you have a commit bit? If not then please send me a pull request and I'll merge it tomorrow once I get the proper internet 21:06
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sorear pmichaud: but not an Array being evaluated eagerly and sunk? 21:07
moritz tadzik: I don't think I have one
pmichaud sinking an array wouldn't throw away its values; they're stored.
moritz going to bed now, will pull request tomorrow
pmichaud put another way, sinking an Array is simply performing bindings/assignments on its elements
sorear pmichaud: sinking Lists throws away values? 21:08
pmichaud sorear: if they're unbound, yes.
sorear pmichaud: "unbound"?
pmichaud my @a := map &block, 1..*; # bound List 21:09
tadzik disconnects
pmichaud map &block 1..*; # unbound List
so, the other idea I had and have been playing with is to revisit the notion of 'want' 21:10
sorear pmichaud: how can &sink tell the difference? is this where my decision to go with a GC instead of reference counting is about to bite me?
pmichaud sorear: Rakudo also doesn't do reference counting, so we want to avoid the same thing
iiuc, we eliminated 'want' because it's too hard to understand context in the presence of multiple dispatch 21:11
however, just because we're eliminating context such as list context, boolean context, etc for dispatch doesn't mean that all 'contextual' information has to be gone. Indeed, any 'context' that doesn't affect the results of multiple dispatch could still be detected. 21:12
and perhaps sink context is one of those.
the other big context that we had to throw out was lvalue context, because it's definitely affecting multiple dispatch in the sense of 'is rw' 21:13
sorear I don't understand how this aside on &want is related to the discussion of &sink 21:14
pmichaud because a function can decide how to respond to sink context, instead of having to return something that knows how to do it 21:15
sorear Are you saying that we should syntactically not call &sink on the results of the bind macro?
pmichaud I'm saying that sink is literally a (p5-style) context that a called function will decide how to handle.
instead of something to be invoked on the return from that function
sorear ah.. 21:16
pmichaud thus assignment would ignore sink context altogether
sorear I'll play with this idea
pmichaud while .map would say "oh, I'm in sink context, so eagerly evaluate and throw what I get"
sorear I need to add p5-style contexts to the Niecza VM anyway to support 'use v5' in uncooperative environments 21:17
pmichaud there are some tricky parts to this approach, though 21:19
sub foo() { something; 1..*.map(&block); } would need to pass the context of foo()'s caller to the map 21:20
same for things like 'return' and the like.
it's just an idea I had that might be worth exploring as opposed to trying to always sink return values. 21:21
sorear pmichaud: thank you for reminding me of this
pmichaud: timtoady has been very clear in the past that 'am I being called in sink context' is a bit in the callframe 21:22
sirrobert what's the right way to do this in a regex: /blah \s* (<alpha>|<ws>*) $/
pmichaud for all of these discussions, it would be really helpful to have a list of things that we know must sink (wrt eagerness and failure throwing) and things that never sink
sirrobert ?
pmichaud sirrobert: <ws>* seems not-very-useful
sorear sirrobert: <ws>* is always wrong, becuase <ws> matches zero or more whitespace characters
sirrobert yeah, I want the * to apply to both <alpha> and <ws>
sorear it's like [\s*]* 21:23
pmichaud sirrobert: (<alpha>|<ws>)* ?
sirrobert I want to capture something like, "I am here" with that snippet.
words with spaces
sorear /blah \s* (<alpha+space>*)/
sirrobert hmmm
hrm!
sorear /blah \s* (<:Alpha+:Space>*)/ # will be much faster on niecza
pmichaud sirrobert: you want "I am here" to be caught by the parens? 21:24
i.e., not including the 'blah' ?
sirrobert yeah
and in my particular case, the blah is always numerical
let's say it's always \d*
so that's easy =)
pmichaud ( \w+ %% <.ws> ) 21:25
sirrobert what's %%?
masak sirrobert: separator modifier.
pmichaud or perhaps it's ( \w+ % <.ws> )
sirrobert lots of voodoo going on here ;)
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pmichaud sirrobert: foo %% ',' will match "foo", "foo,foo", "foo,foo,foo", etc. 21:26
sirrobert (<:alpha+:space>*) seems to work
masak the %% form will match 'foo,foo,foo,' as well.
the % form won't. 21:27
pmichaud right
I'm still having to learn the new %% and % forms; I'm still used to ** :-)
sirrobert ok, I almost grok that
I can see it, but I'll have to use it a few times...
so is non-greedy the same? *?
pmichaud basically <abc> % <def> means "one or more <abc> separated by <def>"
sirrobert same as perl5 I mean
masak this is strangely consistent with % in arith being "modulo" and %% being "evenly divides". um, I guess :)
pmichaud adding ? after a quantifier makes it frugal, yes.
masak it makes more sense if you don't think about it :P
pmichaud (frugal == non-greedy) 21:28
sirrobert bon mot =)
pmichaud adding : after a quantifier makes it non-backtracking
sirrobert not thinking is slightly psychoallergenic for me, masak ;)
flussence
.oO( for symmetry we should define infix:</>(Str, Regex) to call split() :)
sirrobert btw, I did some regex a minute ago that spun for a long, long time (never finished... I had to ^C out) 21:29
want me to try to reproduce?
pmichaud it's possible to create regexes that infinite loop, yes.
especially if you quantify a zero-width match.
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pmichaud sorear: (sink bit in callframe) yeah, that's what led me to think of this. But I'm still not sure of all the mechanics of handling it, nor of the list of use cases we have to handle. 21:31
and in some places (e.g. metaoperators and the like) we may have to work to keep the intermediate callers "invisible" to sink bit stuff. 21:32
masak sirrobert: about 'not thinking is slightly psychoallergenic for me', I know what you mean. I wasn't entirely serious. :)
it's not as bad as I first thought with the meanings of % and %% in arith and regexes. it does make sense even when you think about it, actually. 21:33
sirrobert masak: I knew you were kidding =) 21:34
masak in both, %% means 'evenly divides'. in the regex world this comes out as meaning 'the "foo" and "," things are the same in amount' 21:36
s/amount/quantity/
sirrobert hmmm 21:37
I think I like that6
-6
I didn't know %% meant anything arithmetically =) 21:38
arithmatically?
pmichaud sirrobert: "evenly divisible by"
r: say 100 %% 5 21:39
p6eval rakudo 9394f7: OUTPUT«True␤»
pmichaud r: say 100 %% 3
p6eval rakudo 9394f7: OUTPUT«False␤»
pmichaud it's the short form of (a % b == 0), in effect.
sirrobert neat 21:40
ok, one more regex change...
how can I also capture hyphens in that capture?
(<:alpha+:space>*) 21:41
pmichaud (<:alpha+:space+[-]>*)
sirrobert I need alphas, whitespaces, and hyphens... =)
ahh
I had tried it without the brackets
pmichaud brackets are the "and these characters" part.
sirrobert that makes sense... an anonymous char class
pmichaud right... same idea as <[aeiou]>
thus you can do <+[aeiou]+:space> 21:42
sirrobert FINALLY... all tests passed =)
pmichaud is still not used to the colon syntax there
sirrobert going to go get dinner
pmichaud sirrobert: \o/
sirrobert (yeah, colon is weird for me still too =)
thanks a lot; ttyl. 21:43
well, I guess I should commit and push first ;)
pmichaud commit early and often, yes :)
TimToady: (sink context) what mechanism would you imagine being used to detect things like "3 + $a; 1" resulting in "useless use of + in sink context"? Is that a compile-time detection, based on a trait of &infix:<+>, or is it something that &infix:<+> would carp about at runtime? 21:45
TimToady: do I need to resurrect a version of misc/pm.txt for these questions? ;-) 21:47
sorear based on talking to TimToady in the past, I imagined the former 21:49
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pmichaud is it a trait on the proto sub, then? 21:52
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dalek ecs: d067a9c | pmichaud++ | S05-regex.pod:
Add a note about declarative semantics to the section on interpolated arrays.
 22:23
ecs: 58b9c43 | pmichaud++ | questions.txt:
Add "questions.txt", a place where spec-related implementation
pmichaud github.com/perl6/specs/blob/master...stions.txt # resurrection of misc/pm.txt 22:26
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sorear pmichaud: I would put it as a trait on the proto sub. 23:23

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