»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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[Coke] also pizzas. 01:21
colomon is now confused and hungry... 01:22
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[Coke] saw pizza in backscroll. 01:27
[Coke] is several hours away from his normal base of operations, pizzing.
diakopter mm pizza 01:49
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rjbs You know what's good? Pizza with corn on it. 02:26
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sjohnson diakopter: :) 02:37
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moritz \o 05:32
sorear o/
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dalek osystem: 254dfe4 | (Gabor Szabo)++ | META.list:
add Pod::Parser
 05:57
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masak morning, #perl6 07:57
moritz \o masak 07:58
sorear o/ masak 08:00
masak well that was a short backscroll. 08:02
moritz indeed 08:03
masak carlin: thanks for finding a typo. I corrected it. carlin++ 08:04
moritz btw now live: webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/play_higgs.html 08:06
timotimo thank you, moritz
moritz though I don't understand very much of it
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masak whoa whoa too much text on slide! 08:09
I conclude that the one who made the slides is a researcher :P 08:10
moritz too much of everything on the previous slides
masak: yes, there's a certain kind of researcher who thinks that every relevant information must be on the slide :/
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moritz hugme: hug slidemakers 08:11
hugme hugs slidemakers
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moritz tl;dnv: 2.bp.blogspot.com/-pYgVcAkBcJM/T_Pz....37+AM.png Higgs boson at 125 GeV with 5 sigma significance 08:16
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kresike hello all you happy perl6 people 08:17
moritz \o kresike 08:20
kresike hello moritz o/
sorear o/ kresike
kresike moritz, nice effort on the documentation, I like it 08:21
hello sorear o/
sorear moritz: have you heard anything from ATLAS yet? 08:22
moritz sorear: you mean besides "Higgs boson at 125 GeV with 5 sigma significance"? :-)
timotimo CERN: has enough money to smash particles at each other at 125 GeV, can't afford an HD livestream of the "big announcement" 08:24
sorear moritz: I mean anything at all
moritz: i've seen the CMS announcement.
timotimo: 8000 GeV :) 08:25
timotimo sorear: if they can afford 8000 GeV, they surely can also afford 125, which would still be much more money than you would need to do HD livestreaming
:p
masak 5 σ! that's good enough for me! :) 08:26
moritz sorear: nothing besides the annoucement. I'm not really into high-energy physics, I just listen to the gossip
sorear there are two largely independant physics groups using the LHC and searching for the Higgs 08:27
if both ATLAS and CMS find Higgses with the same properties, it's probably not human error
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moritz and if the tevatron can confirm, I'll really believe it :-) 08:28
sorear the slide you linked has a 'CMS' watermark in the corner
moritz right
sorear moritz: the tevatron has been shut down for good 08:29
masak 'the tevatron'. clearly I've been watching too much Transformers at this point.
moritz sorear: seems I'm really behind on the gossip... isn't there another high energy collider in the US?
sorear I don't think so atm 08:30
ah, RHIC is still working 08:31
masak moritz: what is 'the excess' that she keeps talking about? 08:35
sorear shall I?
moritz please
moritz has no idea either
masak oh, they realized something.
masak is completely lost :)
sorear the excess is the interesting part of the signal
masak I suspected as much. 08:36
sorear they calculate the noise level, and subtract it off
masak oh! makes sense.
sorear noise here is called "background"
masak aye. 08:37
"compatibility between what we observe and what we expect from the Standard Model" -- natural science is TDD ;)
sorear you want to count Higgs events, but the Higgs doesn't last long enough to be detected, and there are non-Higgs events that give the same readout on the detector
masak aye. 08:38
sorear either because the products are the same, or because the detectors have limited discerning power
masak I've understood that the Higgs is very hard to detect. which is why it's taken until now.
moritz in modern colliders, nothing is ever detected directly, just their decay lines
masak right.
what's on the y axis? "Local p0"? 08:39
arnsholt apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120501.html described the process fairly well for me
sorear masak: hard to detect and hard to produce
08:40 thou left
sorear the most common decay mode for a Higgs is quarks, and proton collisons produce a huge mess of quarks anyway 08:40
Fermilab wants to build a muon collider to get cleaner results
moritz oh, atlas' higgs has 1GeV more mass than CMS' higgs :-) 08:41
masak I think the slides are *meant* to look like crap. it's giving the signal "We're researchers, Captain, not designers!"
I mean, srsly, is that Comic Sans?
sorear masak: I think it's just local p-value 08:42
masak ok.
kresike researchers like Comic Sans :)
masak and the color scheme is... remarkable.
timotimo "thanks nature" :D
sorear masak: p-values, speaking very imprecisely, are the probability of getting that result or stronger by chance
masak timotimo: and not the paper, either :) 08:43
sorear: yes. I dimly recall from Statistics 101.
sorear: that explains the negative log scale, then.
massive applause.
who's the guy who's crying? 08:44
sorear relevant to the muon collider, amazing thing I dug up last month: arxiv.org/abs/physics/9908017
moritz erm, wtf?
sorear (a 4 TeV muon collider produces beams of ~1 TeV neutrinos. High energy neutrinos are, it turns out, not harmless.) 08:45
moritz I thought neutrinos had so low low cross section that they all went through you :/
masak "(but which one...?)" :)
sorear moritz: The cross sections increase with energy 08:46
moritz stupid relativity! 08:47
masak :P
I have never seen that enthusiastic applause on a physics lecture.
sorear I don't know if I'm at all on the right track here, but I conceptualize it something like this: neutrino interactions are suppressed because they require an 80 GeV virtual W. If the neutrino has 800 GeV of energy to start with, there's not suppression 08:48
diakopter in soviet russia, bosons detect you
sorear the funny thing is that, given how much of the problem is noise rejection, we've probably been detecting Higgses since the 90s but just not noticed it... 08:50
moritz did the previous collider in the LHC tunnel go up to 125GeV? 08:51
(I'd think so...)
masak what are the consequences of this discovery, from a model perspective? 08:52
sorear yes, LEP went up to 209 GeV
masak "The Standard Model is fine, we like it even more now"?
timotimo do i understand correctly that they don't have to get higher up in their energies to study the higgs boson more completely?
moritz masak: I don't think that's the conclusion
timotimo (i mean, most of their work now will be analysing the data recorded until now)
sorear masak: you may have noticed in that slide that they detected the Higgs even harder (5.0) than the standard model predicted (4.7) 08:53
moritz masak: afaict (and I might very well be wrong here), the mass mechanism is largly orthogonal to the rest of the model
sorear masak: the higgs that they've found seems to decay into photons slightly more often than it should. "stay tuned"
timotimo it's amazing they went this far without destroying earth in the process!
colomon doesn't quite understand why, but CERN is one of my $customers. 08:54
sorear timotimo: they record only a tiny tiny fraction of the data they generate
moritz masak: so there have been "standard model" + "non-higgs mass model" constructs which can now die peacefully
masak oh, that's exciting news, then.
timotimo did i understand it incorrectly that they have not yet analysed a lot of it?
sorear the front end detectors put out something like 1 PB/s 08:55
moritz which needs to be filtered pretty much immediately
sorear there's a lot of data left to analyze, but there's far more they had to drop immediately
moritz because nobody can even store that much data
timotimo yeah, no data cable is thick enough to get that data out
sorear and the drop rules depend on what they are looking for 08:56
timotimo ah, of course. so they might have been overlooking lots of other things
sorear so, there's probably a lot of interesting meta-analysis stuff that can be done with the existing data
but it's probably not correct to say that they could do without future collisions
also, we're still without a viable dark matter candidate 08:57
moritz wonders if some PHD student will go through the old LEP data and find the Higgs in it, now that they know what to look for
sorear hmm. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEP#An_unfin...iggs_boson 08:59
timotimo next thing on the stream is a press conference, yes? 09:01
masak I now suspect the crying man (who is now talking) is Higgs. 09:04
timotimo no mention of earth-swallowing black holes yet? :\ 09:07
sorear I imagine that stopped being funny a while ago.
timotimo maybe during the press conference someone will finally touch on this very important topic
oh. apologies then
sorear sleep& 09:08
timotimo would it be funny to register hasthehiggsbosonbeenfoundyet.com/ and putting "Yes!" on the page?
moritz it would
hasthelhcdestroyedtheearthyet.com/ exists already :-) 09:09
masak WOW! "We found woking on the model very interesting and gratifying, but we didn't expect it to have anything to do with physical reality." I like this guy!
timotimo hmm, i'd have to ask my admin to pull up another virtual host and everything. seems a bit too bothersome for not too much amusement value 09:10
moritz hey, new business idea: a service for one-click registration, setup and hosting of one-word domains 09:11
kresike I wonder what the "most elusive particle" will be 20 years from now :) 09:12
moritz you open an account once, and then just enter domain name, content (here "yes"), and click 'make it so'
timotimo feel free, moritz, there may be money in that. usually customers will want a simple image, too, rather than just a word
they even made a higgs song! wow 09:13
moritz timotimo: but then I'd have to bother with domain registration :-)
timotimo yup, you would
not worth the trouble, you should rather spend your time doing cool perl6 related things :)
moritz well, I could do it in Perl 6 :-) 09:14
masak the higgs song felt wildly out of place :)
timotimo www.havewefoundthehiggsyet.com/ - indeed already taken
masak moritz++ # business idea in Perl 6
moritz otoh it might conflict (though only a tiny bit) with the business of my future employer
anyway, I'll ponder it :-) 09:15
masak you could always broach it with the employer. 09:17
moritz I'll surely will 09:18
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timotimo nooooo, she forgot to push the button again 09:25
we can hear her typitytype
masak "I think [the Higgs is] very relevant to you, because if it did not exist, you would not exist. [To another physicist:] Do you agree?" -- "Yes, absolutely." 09:29
I sniff the anthropic principle in the air ;)
bonsaikitten masak: it's a sign that god exists! ;) 09:30
timotimo is that where you say ... ah, yes
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moritz github.com/moritz/perlgeek.de/blob...-p6doc.txt # any feedback before I blog it? 09:38
colomon line 29 ends with an out-of-place semicolon 09:40
moritz++ 09:41
moritz colomon: thanks, fixing 09:42
masak moritz++ 09:43
timotimo coopetition, i like that word
masak moritz: I believe you are doing very much the right things with this project. web visibility, nice URLs, simple organization, a focus on accessibility, community buy-in. 09:44
r: END { say "I run after die!" }; die "arrgh!" 09:45
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«arrgh!␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/ppX4pkTgv2:1␤␤I run after die!␤»
masak yay 09:46
jnthn moritz: posts looks good
moritz masak: one of my plans is a follow-up post with really, really easy examples of how to help
like, several example patches that add a one-line to three-line example 09:47
and then tell them "and now we need an example for List.join, $other_routines. Your turn!"
masak sounds like it just might work. 09:49
moritz IME that's the only way to get a siginificant amount of contributors 09:50
(being very, very specific)
that's a lesson I've learned from the contribution challenges
and it's much work :-)
masak aye.
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moritz in preparation for the Oslo hackathon, sjn++ and others asked us to ponder some questions, including: why the ambitious goals for Perl 6? 09:56
the example of python 3 (brought again to my attention by teddziuba.com/post/26426290981/pyth...ng-problem ) makes me glad we have such ambitious goals
python 3 breaks backward compatiblity, took a long time... and doesn't have too many compelling selling points 09:57
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bonsaikitten moritz: it's slower, and I have to port libraries to make things work, and why not continue using 2.7 which just works now at no cost? 10:05
moritz bonsaikitten: that's my point really
bonsaikitten: with p6, we can point at quite a number of decent improvements over perl 5
bonsaikitten moritz: perl6 is at least different enough (not just perl 5.18 with broken compat) and has some really new ideas 10:06
tadzik hello #perl6
masak tadzik! \o/
tadzik \o/ 10:08
masak why *would* you migrate working code to Python 3? just because it's a bigger version number? 10:10
I think that's where the real problem sits. it's a perception problem around version numbers.
bonsaikitten masak: because I then have to port lots of "foreign" code which might be unfixable, spend tons of time on integration testing and get a performance penalty 10:11
what's not to like about that :)
moritz perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/2012-doc...p6doc.html # I blug, but many of you have seen the same text already in the preview
bonsaikitten that's why all the big things like Django, Turbogears, Plone, ... are still stuck in py2 for the next years
arnsholt I just found en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZYpp (via fabien.potencier.org/article/64/php...you-think) 10:12
masak bonsaikitten: oh wow, it took me a second or two to process that that was sarcasm. :)
this channel is making me too soft ;)
arnsholt Sounds like an intriguing way to do package managment, even though SAT solving for it does make me think of sparrows and cannons
bonsaikitten masak: you must still be asleep ;)
masak yeah.
masak goes hunting for lunch & 10:13
bonsaikitten arnsholt: most problems in package management don't map to SAT as far as I can tell
masak arnsholt: sparrows and cannons? is that like "swatting flies with nuclear weapons"?
bonsaikitten "Yes, PHP has a better dependency manager than any other languages." that is especially wrong :) 10:14
masak I think using SAT in package management is *cool*.
masak gone, really &
daxim libzypp and libsolv also have perl bindings 10:15
the recent php rants and blog responses raised an interesting point: a language can easily eat a lot of php's lunch by compiling to php 10:17
imagine that 10:18
brrt compiling to php
that would be...
no
god no
daxim cackles 10:19
yes, certaily. do think it through
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brrt oh by the way 10:21
mod_parrot will be one day as easy 10:22
and run all damn languages
including php
until people forget it was even there
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daxim I don't buy anymore in the "one day [in the future]" rhetoric 10:24
I evaluate the code that exists and I can use 10:25
GlitchMr doc.perl6.org/type/Str 10:26
What is "Stringy"?
Timbus overcooked beans
GlitchMr I guess that "Stringy" is a role?
jnthn doc.perl6.org/type/Stringy ...oh, not yet :)
Stringy is a role done by all things that are string-like.
GlitchMr But we have Numeric role. So I guess it's just lack of documentation for Stringy. 10:27
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dalek c: 86fee1d | jnthn++ | lib/Stringy.pod:
Add a minimal doc for Stringy.
 10:29
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brrt ... is there a perl metacharacter for all non-printable characters? 10:34
GlitchMr Whitespace and control characters?
jnthn In a regex, <print> matches all printables, iirc. So in theory, <!print>
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brrt whitespace is printable 10:36
(in my specific application)
dalek c: bbff3e2 | GlitchMr++ | lib/Callable.pod:
Minimal doc for Callable too
 10:48
flussence std: /<!print>/; 10:53
p6eval std fd2647b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
flussence std: /<control>/;
p6eval std fd2647b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
flussence std: /<foo>/;
p6eval std fd2647b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
flussence hm.
r: /<!print>/
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: ( no output )
flussence r: /<foo>/ 10:54
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: ( no output )
flussence r: 'a' ~~ /<foo>/
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«No such method 'foo' for invocant of type 'Cursor'␤ in regex <anon> at /tmp/BRnwfO0_Si:1␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/CORE.setting:9791␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/BRnwfO0_Si:1␤␤»
flussence r: 'a' ~~ /<!print>/
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«Cursor<-1868022110>Can not get non-existent attribute '$!pos' on class 'Cursor'␤ in regex <anon> at /tmp/Iru_o1kAQt:1␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/CORE.setting:9791␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/Iru_o1kAQt:1␤␤»
flussence r: 'a' ~~ /<control>/
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«No such method 'control' for invocant of type 'Cursor'␤ in regex <anon> at /tmp/O2_dPnD1SQ:1␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/CORE.setting:9791␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/O2_dPnD1SQ:1␤␤»
flussence ah, there we go. !print only
r: 'abc f j' ~~ /^ <print+space>+ $/ 10:55
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at line 2, near "+space>+ $"␤»
flussence r: 'abc f j' ~~ /^ <print&space>+ $/
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤regex assertion not terminated by angle bracket at line 2, near "&space>+ $"␤»
flussence r: 'abc f j' ~~ /^ [ <print> | <space> ]+ $/ 10:56
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«Cursor<-125322636>Can not get non-existent attribute '$!pos' on class 'Cursor'␤ in regex <anon> at /tmp/FPpA582mjh:1␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/CORE.setting:9791␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/FPpA582mjh:1␤␤»
flussence is 3bc91c broken there or am I doing something non-obviously stupid?
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jnthn Oh...I wonder if <print> is NYI and so it's then trying to call Mu.print, which of course is not a Cursor... 10:58
flussence r: 'abc f j' ~~ /^ [ <graph> | <space> ]+ $/ 11:00
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«No such method 'graph' for invocant of type 'Cursor'␤ in regex <anon> at /tmp/21zORc0AND:1␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/CORE.setting:9791␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/21zORc0AND:1␤␤»
flussence r: 'abc f j' ~~ /^ [ <alnum> | <space> ]+ $/
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: ( no output )
flussence r: 'abc f j' ~~ /^ <!cntrl>+ $/
uh oh 11:01
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
GlitchMr perl6: 1 andthen Mu andthen 2
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/acMQdHxaMq:1␤»
..niecza v19-7-g5e25209: ( no output )
dalek atures: 116af37 | GlitchMr++ | features.json:
Logic cascade is supported in Niecza
 11:03
GlitchMr Of course, for Git changing one character is changing two lines 11:06
moritz <!cntrl> is a zero-width match 11:07
and that's also why it loops infinitely
r: say "a\c[1]b" ~~ /\w <.cntrl> \w/
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«q[ab]␤␤»
moritz r: say "a\c[1]b" ~~ /\w <-cntrl> \w/
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«#<failed match>␤»
moritz - is the correct negation for character classes if you want it to remain a character class (ie match one character) 11:08
GlitchMr perl6: 'abc' ~~ /<!cntrl>/ 11:09
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c, niecza v19-7-g5e25209: ( no output )
GlitchMr perl6: print ('abc' ~~ /<!cntrl>+/).perl 11:10
moritz 13:07 < moritz> and that's also why it loops infinitely
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c, niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
moritz our regex engines don't have protection yet against quantifying zero-width matches
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jnthn moritz: oh! 11:20
d'oh :)
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hoelzro can one do pipes in rakudo yet? 11:23
moritz hoelzro: what kind of pipes are you looking for? UNIX pipes? object pipes? something else? 11:27
tin whistle pipes?
:-)
hoelzro moritz: IPC pipes 11:28
I want to write a Perl5 program that does some heavy lifting/lower level stuff, but a Perl6 program to process the data and respond 11:29
moritz then only in the form of shell commands :(
though parrot implements pipe opening, so it shouldn't be too hard to do
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moritz (though we are missing other IPC stuff like signal handling) 11:30
hoelzro hmm
that's fine
arnsholt If you're feeling adventurous, you could probably do it with Zavolaj =)
hoelzro I'm just trying to write an XMPP bot in Perl6 with the minimum amount of effort up front
eventually I wouldn't mind writing an XML parser, an event loop, and an XMPP client library =P 11:31
tadzik wow, courageous one you are :)
flussence you could always have the perl5 program open a two-way pipe to the perl6 one, and use stdin/out from perl6 11:32
dalek q: 9985497 | moritz++ | answers.md:
explain difference between token, rule and regex
hoelzro flussence: interesting idea; I'd rather the whole pipe thing be transparent, though
So I can have an XMPPBot::Connection object
moritz flussence: that's possible, but rather hard to do without getting into a deadlock
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hoelzro and replace it with a real object when an actual library is ready 11:32
Timbus is a socket pair not possible? 11:33
arnsholt If you're happy with the P5 script being at thge top level, you might be able to do it by explicitly forking, replacing STDIN/STDOUT with filehandles of your choosing and then finally exec(2)ing your P6 program
hoelzro Timbus: that would be acceptable 11:34
arnsholt Sort of what flussence suggested
hoelzro arnsholt: I'd prefer the P6 program to be the top
JimmyZ n: say 4 [&infix:<+>] 6 11:36
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«10␤»
Timbus seems like a lot of effort instead of just.. mkfifo
moritz n: say [[&infix:<+>]] 4, 6 11:37
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«10␤»
moritz JimmyZ: one can always go another level nastier :-)
JimmyZ :) 11:38
n: say [[[[[&infix:<+>]]]]] 4, 6 11:39
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«10␤»
JimmyZ so you can use many []
moritz n: say [R[[R[[&infix:<+>]]]]] 4, 6 11:40
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«10␤»
Timbus n: say <== 4, 6 ==> [&infix:<+>]
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Bogus term at /tmp/kfxTLfbuVy line 1 (EOF):␤------> say <== 4, 6 ==> [&infix:<+>]⏏<EOL>␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
flussence n: say [R[[R[[&infix:<+>]]]]] (4 XZX 6) # bwahaha
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«10␤»
Timbus lol
masak I wonder why people think nesting operators is evil, but nesting function calls is perfectly normal ;) 11:42
JimmyZ r: say [[[[[+]]]]] 4, 6 11:43
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«10␤»
moritz masak: nesting operators is much more like higher-order programming
jnthn even explains meta-operators as "just higher order programming" to certain audiences. 11:44
seldon There may be a mental connection to three-star programmers, I suppose. 11:46
moritz what is a three-star programmer? 11:47
seldon One that uses pointers to pointers to pointers. 11:48
int ***p; // <-- that sort of thing.
moritz rarely touches languages with explicit pointers these days
dalek q: 49e139e | moritz++ | answers.md:
explain &fail and &die

also change HTML attributes to double quote, because the generated file is actually XHML		 11:49
jnthn
.oO( Great, now I'll never be able to see "Hotel **** Thingyhof" as anything other than a C declaration... )
moritz jnthn: better than thinking of it as swear words :-) 11:50
seldon Great, now I'll never be able to read C code again.
11:50 cognominal left
GlitchMr But, couldn't you in Perl 5 do $$${\\\42}? 11:51
moritz but then I'd be a three-backslash programmer :-)
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seldon Hmm...if there were trigils, you could do $#@bastard or so. 11:52
GlitchMr Or $$$(\\\42) in Perl 6.
moritz GlitchMr: no
GlitchMr perl6: print ($$$(\\\42)).perl
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«42»
..rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name␤at /tmp/ZWwgpwJ0tx:1␤»
GlitchMr perl6: print ($$$(\\\\42)).perl
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«\(42)» 11:53
..rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name␤at /tmp/0doq1rgQbN:1␤»
moritz $ and \ as prefixes aren't complementary actions
GlitchMr Is it Niecza bug?
moritz I'm not sure
but \ creates a Capture
and $ itemizes something
masak right. they are not opposites.
GlitchMr So, Niecza is wrong or Rakudo is wrong?
moritz I don't think itemizing a one-element Capture should unCapture it 11:54
GlitchMr But rakudo error sounds like a syntax error...
moritz it is
and is likely also wrong
GlitchMr perl6: print ($($($(\\\\42)))).perl
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«Capture.new( list => (Capture.new( list => (Capture.new( list => (Capture.new( list => (42,).list, hash => EnumMap.new()),).list, hash => EnumMap.new()),).list, hash => EnumMap.new()),).list, hash => EnumMap.new())»
..niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«\(42)»
moritz std: $$$( 1)
p6eval std fd2647b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
GlitchMr perl6: print ($($($(\\\42)))).perl
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«Capture.new( list => (Capture.new( list => (Capture.new( list => (42,).list, hash => EnumMap.new()),).list, hash => EnumMap.new()),).list, hash => EnumMap.new())»
..niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«42»
moritz r: $$$( 1)
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name␤at /tmp/9nmRlOjOH2:1␤»
moritz so yes, rakudobug
GlitchMr tablets.perl6.org/appendix-e-exciti...comparison 11:56
$a = defined $b ? $b : $c; $a = $b // $c;
I don't like this Perl 5 example.
In Perl 5 you also can do $b // $c 11:57
moritz in 5.10 and higher, yes
GlitchMr Perl 5.10 is old enough today
It doesn't have support.
moritz well, I know 11:58
GlitchMr tablets.perl6.org/appendix-e-exciti...ubroutines 12:03
my $a?
(also I usually type it as my ($a, $b, @rest) = @_, but this is style thing) 12:04
Both ways are correct
arnsholt Yeah, I do that too. But for $self parameters I use shift 12:05
dalek blets: daf756f | moritz++ | docs/appendix-e-exciting.txt:
fix p6ism in Perl 5 code
12:06 cognominal left, cognominal joined
GlitchMr It was working before, but I guess it's connected to array slices 12:06
masak lichtkind: the last example in tablets.perl6.org/appendix-e-exciti...-for-loops is wrong. zip() iterates up to the length of the shortest array, not the length of @a
moritz I'm a bit more worried that tablets.perl6.org/appendix-e-exciti...ubroutines doesn't use what Perl 6 folks call "named parameters" 12:07
GlitchMr @product = @factor1 >>*<< @factor2;
I guess that Unicode »*« operator could be used in this case 12:08
arnsholt Also, the Perl 5 code has the wrong sigils in that same example
moritz GlitchMr: the fix it
erm
meant arnsholt :)
arnsholt Oh. Didn't know I could 12:09
arnsholt goes looking for the edit button
moritz it's a git repo
perl6/tablets
dalek blets: 406cb56 | moritz++ | docs/appendix-e-exciting.txt:
rename a section

it does not use named parameters in the sense that Perl 6 programmers use that term
arnsholt Ah, right
moritz $product[$] = $factor1[$] * $factor2[$_]; # those lonely $_ also don't look well 12:10
arnsholt 'Cept, I don't have write privileges to that repo
dalek blets: e9fc63f | GlitchMr++ | docs/appendix-e-exciting.txt:
Use »*« instead of >>*<<
blets: 2ce9aef | GlitchMr++ | docs/appendix-e-exciting.txt:
Use $_ variable instead of $] variable and syntax error.
moritz ah, GlitchMr++ is faster than me
arnsholt: I can fix that, just a sec 12:11
arnsholt Cheers!
Long live the conversational implicature ^_^
moritz arnsholt: erm, you should have
GlitchMr I already have fixed it when you have mentioned it 12:12
moritz arnsholt: you're in the 'perl6' team, and it grants access to 'tablets
arnsholt Huh
GlitchMr perl6/tablets
arnsholt Oh!
arnsholt slaps forehead
My Github session had expired 12:13
dalek blets: c3575dc | GlitchMr++ | docs/tablet-4-operators.txt:
Add Unicode hyperops to already existing ASCII hyperops
 12:15
GlitchMr But actually, whole tablet-4-operators.txt needs descriptions of operators
For now it's list of operators 12:16
moritz I went to look at the tablets for stuff that I could steal for p6doc
and was disappointed that there wasn't much worthy of copying
GlitchMr Also, is generating doc.perl6.org automatic 12:17
moritz it's not yet cronjobbed 12:18
dalek c: 266ceff | moritz++ | lib/operators.pod:
start operators.pod

precedence and associativity tables are taken verbatim from S03
GlitchMr Also, I think that doc.perl6.org should have some kind of layout. 12:19
moritz it has some kind of layout :-)
though improvements to it are always welcome
dalek blets: 730ee66 | (Carl Mäsak)++ | docs/appendix-e-exciting.txt:
[docs/appendix-e-exciting.txt] correcter Perl 5 version of zip()
GlitchMr Also, I would like to add link to Perl6 documentation to perl6.org, but... 12:23
perl6.org/documentation/
moritz btw the old doc.perl6.org content is still available under u4x.perl6.org/
GlitchMr That "Official Perl 6 documentation" is a problem. It leads to The Synopsis.
moritz GlitchMr: just rename it
flussence "Official Perl 6 Specification" sounds correcter
moritz you can call the links "Perl 6 specification" and "doc.perl6.org" or "p6doc" or so 12:24
GlitchMr ok :)
dalek href="https://perl6.org:">perl6.org: 47148c0 | GlitchMr++ | source/ (2 files):
Add Perl 6 documentation links
 12:28
GlitchMr Can't use an undefined value as an ARRAY reference at /usr/local/validator/httpd/cgi-bin/check line 569. 12:29
For help, please send mail to the webmaster ([no address given]), giving this error message and the time and date of the error.
ok
That was random
I wanted to check validity of Perl 6 pages
flussence don't ever look at the validator's source code. it's horrifying :) 12:30
hoelzro does Rakudo support sockets (yet)?
jnthn Yes
Various modules on modules.perl6.org use Rakudo's socket support.
dalek href="https://perl6.org:">perl6.org: c96eeb6 | GlitchMr++ | source/documentation/index.html:
Fix HTML error
 12:31
hoelzro ah, I see. IO::Socket 12:32
jnthn: thanks!
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timotimo "Arrays may also be defined with a mixture of fixed and autoextending dimensions. For example, there are always 12 months in a year and 24 hours in a day, but the number of days in the month can vary: 12:46
that's not strictly true :)
moritz yes, we know :-)
dalek c: 017256e | moritz++ | lib/glossary.pod:
steal glossary.pod from u4x

added some small fixes and p6podification
masak \o/ 12:50
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dalek c: 08634a2 | moritz++ | htmlify.pl:
[htmlify] do not dissect language documents

I have no short-ish term plans for doing anything with subsections of these documents. Speeds up processing a bit		 13:04
seldon Is Str's ords method for public consumptions? I found it through introspection and it's perfect for my little bf interpreter, but I don't see it in the spec. 13:05
moritz then we need to spec it
seldon Dunno. It feels a little out of place tbh, but it's a good way to get single chars without spamming new temporary objects. 13:07
moritz I think chrs is specced (which is the exact opposite) 13:08
so we should have ords too
dalek c: 75fb570 | moritz++ | lib/Str.pod:
[Str] ord and ords
 13:09
moritz n: say 'abc.'.ords
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«97 98 99 46␤»
moritz rn: say 'abc.'.ords
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c, niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«97 98 99 46␤»
moritz oh, and we have tests for it 13:10
seldon: it's in S29, where it's thoroughly misplaced
masak frankly I think .chrs and .ords are a bit unnecessary when we have >>.chr and .comb>>.ord 13:11
not even "it's not orthogonal, it's diagonal" motivates it for me. YMMV.
moritz >>.chr.join 13:12
and it's not quite the same, because >> descends into sub-structures
timotimo strs can have sub-structures? 13:13
jnthn huh, isn't .ords a method on a string?
'foo'>>.ord won't work 13:14
It'd have to be 'foo'.comb>>.ord
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moritz jnthn: .comb>>.ord is what masak++ wrote 13:14
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masak jnthn: yeah, keep up! :P 13:15
jnthn How dare you tell me to keep up! :P
moritz timotimo: chrs is a method in List, which can have sub-structures
masak jnthn: I'm sorry you feel offended. :P
timotimo oh, didn't realize
r: ("foo", "bar", "baz").chrs
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«No such method 'chrs' for invocant of type 'Parcel'␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/wUE6UzPw2Q:1␤␤»
timotimo r: say ("foo", "bar", "baz").list.chrs
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«Cannot convert string to number: base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.' in '⏏foo' (indicated by ⏏)␤ in method Int at src/gen/CORE.setting:9538␤ in method Int at src/gen/CORE.setting:3483␤ in method chr at src/gen/CORE.setting:1951␤ in method dispatc…
masak no, that's not what I wrote either. 13:16
timotimo uh, of course
moritz timotimo: list of integers
timotimo i just realized chrs is the other way around
13:17 smash joined
smash hello everyone 13:17
moritz smash! 13:18
GlitchMr perl6: print 42,;
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c, niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«42»
GlitchMr perl6: print 42,,;
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix , instead␤at /tmp/cvBAtFrqZk:1␤»
..niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix , instead at /tmp/yx_l6bGDM5 line 1:␤------> print 42,⏏,;␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
timotimo oh, btw, could you tell me what to look for to understand how "semicolon lists" work or what they're used for? 13:19
most stuff i found in the synopses was about parameters not to be dispatched over and such
and of course lists of statements to evaluate
moritz r: say <1 2 3> Z <a b c> Z <d e f>
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«1 a d 2 b e 3 c f␤»
moritz suppose you want to write a function that works the same way 13:20
you somehow need to take care that the structure of the input list doesn't flatten out
semicolon lists are a (the?) way to do it
r: say zip(<1 2 3>; <a b c>; <d e f>) 13:21
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«1 a d 2 b e 3 c f␤»
moritz r: say zip(<1 2 3> <a b c> <d e f>)
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&c' called (line 1)␤Undefined routine '&b' called (line 1)␤Undefined routine '&a' called (line 1)␤»
moritz r: say zip(<1 2 3>, <a b c>, <d e f>)
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«1 a d 2 b e 3 c f␤»
moritz hm, seems it works without
maybe we can throw 'em out? :-)
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masak smash! \o/ 13:24
colomon rn: ay zip(<1 2 3>; <a b c>; <d e f>)
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Slicel lists are NYI at /tmp/rfC6LsGfSy line 1 (EOF):␤------> ay zip(<1 2 3>; <a b c>; <d e f>)⏏<EOL>␤␤Undeclared routines:␤ 'ay' used at line 1␤ 'zip' used at line 1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ a… 13:25
..rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&ay' called (line 1)␤»
colomon rn: say zip(<1 2 3>; <a b c>; <d e f>)
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«1 a d 2 b e 3 c f␤»
..niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Slicel lists are NYI at /tmp/ktccwRJMhe line 1 (EOF):␤------> say zip(<1 2 3>; <a b c>; <d e f>)⏏<EOL>␤␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'zip' used at line 1␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza…
colomon doh!
13:26 cognominal left
daxim sedition.com/a/3285 perl6 people are happy people. HAPPY TO ANSWER 13:36
moritz \o/
I'd say it's even a progress to see perl6 included in such a statistic 13:37
.oO( perl6 is more important than SQL )
colomon there are unanswered perl 6 questions on stackoverflow? 13:39
daxim not anymore
colomon ha! 13:40
GlitchMr Now, I wonder what is that one unanswered question 13:42
ok, found it: stackoverflow.com/questions/3317298...-in-rakudo 13:43
daxim that has one answer.
GlitchMr Except not accepted (I don't know why)
13:44 tokuhiro_ joined
GlitchMr But well, only person who asked it can accept this answer 13:44
so well
13:45 adu joined
GlitchMr Oh, I remember. Unanswered means that no answer is accepted and no answer has more than 0 points. 13:45
I have upvoted that answer and it isn't on unanswered tab on StackOverflow.
13:46 cognominal__ joined 13:49 cognominal_ left
moritz nr: grammar A { has $.x = 5; method TOP { { say $.x } } }; say A.new.parse('') 13:53
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Representation P6cursor does not support attributes␤ at /tmp/7uvezsizUv line 0 (x @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/7uvezsizUv line 1 (A.TOP @ 7) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2883 (Grammar.parse @ 5) ␤ at /tmp/7uvezsizUv line 1 (main…
..rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«Any()␤No such method 'MATCH' for invocant of type 'Bool'␤ in method parse at src/gen/CORE.setting:9778␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/1h6U_muL31:1␤␤»
moritz r: grammar A { has $.x = 5; method TOP { { say $!x } } }; say A.new.parse('')
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«Any()␤No such method 'MATCH' for invocant of type 'Bool'␤ in method parse at src/gen/CORE.setting:9778␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/hlZy63m_sm:1␤␤»
moritz I think there are two bugs in here
the first is that the grammar doesn't see the attribute 13:54
and the second is that it tried to call Bool.MATCH. I think {} blocks are meant *only* for side effects, and their return values should be unused
Lard++ on p6u
colomon n: grammar A { has $.x = 5; method TOP { { say $!x } } }; say A.new.parse('') 13:58
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Representation P6cursor does not support attributes␤ at /tmp/iHSRDm6Eh9 line 1 (A.TOP @ 7) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2883 (Grammar.parse @ 5) ␤ at /tmp/iHSRDm6Eh9 line 1 (mainline @ 6) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/l…
moritz n: grammar A { has $.x = 5; method TOP { { say 'lol' } } }; A.new.parse('') 13:59
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«lol␤Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method to in type Bool␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2882 (ANON @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1026 (Block.ACCEPTS @ 4) ␤ at <unknown> line 0 (KERNEL grep @ 2) ␤ at /home/p6…
moritz rn: grammar A { has $.x = 5; method TOP { { say 'lol' } .? } }; A.new.parse('')
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Strange text after block (missing comma, semicolon, comment marker?) at /tmp/zc38u6wp7u line 1:␤------> has $.x = 5; method TOP { { say 'lol' }⏏ .? } }; A.new.parse('')␤␤Parse failed␤␤»
..rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near "{ say 'lol"␤»
moritz OH
I should write 'token TOP'
not 'method TOP'
timotimo is there a similar short version of my LongTypeName @foo = (LongTypeName.new(:a<1>), LongTypeName.new(:b<2>)), like i could do my LongTypeName $foo =. new(:a<1>)?
moritz not really 14:00
but you can write .new(:a<1>), .new(:a<2>) given LongTypeName 14:01
timotimo oh, that's cute
GlitchMr paste.uk.to/e04406a8
So, you cannot parse Perl 6 too?
timotimo how about mapping the parameter lists to LongTypeName.new with hyper ops? somewhat like LongTypeName <<.new<< (\(:a<1>), \(:b<2>)) 14:02
moritz of course you can't :-)
GlitchMr Actually, I think I should've used .pick, but * (Whatever)
tadzik err, what
colomon GlitchMr: was just going to say .pick to you. :)
GlitchMr I've done Perl 5 code, not Perl 6 14:03
moritz timotimo: (:a<1>, :a<2>).map: { LongTypeName.new(|$_) }
GlitchMr (well, ok, in Perl 5 ['-', '+'][2.rand.Int] would be syntax error)
14:03 kaleem left
tadzik std: sub infix:[['-', '+'][2.rand.Int]] ($a, $b) { } 14:03
p6eval std fd2647b: OUTPUT«Possible attempt to separate words with commas at (eval 243) line 18.␤Possible attempt to separate words with commas at (eval 243) line 30.␤Cannot create infix:sym[['-', '+'][2.rand.Int]]: syntax error at (eval 243) line 18, near "2.rand"␤syntax error at (eval 243) l…
GlitchMr What words? 14:04
moritz std: qw/-, +/
p6eval std fd2647b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 40m␤»
moritz GlitchMr: probably a bogus warning from the codegen
erm, from the generated code
GlitchMr std: sub infix:[qw/- +/[2.rand.Int]] ($a, $b) { }
p6eval std fd2647b: OUTPUT«Cannot create infix:sym[qw/- +/[2.rand.Int]]: Search pattern not terminated at (eval 243) line 30.␤␤FAILED 00:00 41m␤»
GlitchMr Ok, happy?
Probably no 14:05
moritz infix:[<+ ->.pick]
GlitchMr std: sub infix:[<+ ->.pick] ($a, $b) { }
p6eval std fd2647b: OUTPUT«Useless use of a constant (+) in void context at (eval 248) line 18.␤Useless use of a constant (+) in void context at (eval 248) line 30.␤Cannot create infix:sym[<+ ->.pick]: Bareword "pick" not allowed while "strict subs" in use at (eval 248) line 30.␤Bareword "pick…
GlitchMr Bareword?
moritz yep, the codegen doesn't like it
GlitchMr Is it Perl 5 or Perl 6? 14:06
moritz GlitchMr: std generates perl 5 from Perl 6 code
GlitchMr oh, ok
moritz GlitchMr: so when the codegen is imperfect, perl 5 warnings and errors leak through
flussence r: sub infix:<±>($a, $b) { return $a-$b.abs .. $a+$b.abs }; say 12 ~~ 15±5 14:07
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«True␤»
GlitchMr ok
flussence r: sub infix:<±>($a, $b) { return $a-$b.abs .. $a+$b.abs }; say 22/7 ~~ pi ± 0.1 14:08
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«True␤»
flussence :D
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GlitchMr perl6: r: sub infix:<±>($a, $b) { return $a-$b.abs .. $a+$b.abs }; say 12.5 ~~ 15±5 14:09
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«True␤»
GlitchMr broken
p6eval ..rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/rLmPX8ZWPL:1␤»
GlitchMr perl6: sub infix:<±>($a, $b) { return $a-$b.abs .. $a+$b.abs }; say 12.5 ~~ 15±5
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c, niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«True␤»
GlitchMr or not
colomon you said perl6: r: on the first 14:10
n: r: sub infix:<±>($a, $b) { return $a-$b.abs .. $a+$b.abs }; say 12.5 ~~ 15±5
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«True␤»
GlitchMr Oh, right, I forgot that ranges aren't Perl 5 ranges
I know
Accidentally
colomon r: r: sub infix:<±>($a, $b) { return $a-$b.abs .. $a+$b.abs }; say 12.5 ~~ 15±5
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/nmZqldBc5a:1␤»
tadzik hmm, szabgab seems to be writing Pod parser from scratch
colomon std: r: sub infix:<±>($a, $b) { return $a-$b.abs .. $a+$b.abs }; say 12.5 ~~ 15±5 14:11
p6eval std fd2647b: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 44m␤»
GlitchMr But if you cannot parse Perl, can you parse Pod in Perl 6?
flussence tadzik: I saw that, but from the capitalisation I assumed it was for perl5 POD
tadzik it's not
GlitchMr: I managed to do it
GlitchMr ok, parsing Pod without executing code 14:12
tadzik no, but the reasons are different 14:13
GlitchMr But I guess that most POD parsers will simply think that grammar wasn't modified. 14:14
kresike bye all 14:19
14:19 kresike left
tadzik bye kresike 14:19
dalek c: eda5ad0 | (Klaus Brüssel)++ | lib/operators.pod:
Fix some typos
 14:33
c: f30a2b0 | GlitchMr++ | lib/operators.pod:
Merge pull request #1 from muixirt/master

Fixed some typos
c: 13cc82a | GlitchMr++ | lib/Callable.pod:
Fix case sensitivity
 14:39
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GlitchMr Is it just me or Array isn't Positional? 14:53
perlcabal.org/syn/S32/Containers.html
jnthn Array inherits from List, and List is Positional. 14:54
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jnthn r: say Array ~~ Positional 14:54
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«True␤»
GlitchMr Except, 14:55
role List does Container {...}
role Container {...}
14:55 tyatpi joined
GlitchMr There is nothing about Positional in inheritance chain 14:55
timotimo r: say Container ~~ Positional
GlitchMr I guess that List should have does Positional too
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&Container' called (line 1)␤»
timotimo hm
GlitchMr Should I change this to role List does Container does Positional {...} 14:56
jnthn role List?!
We have it as a class in all the implementations, afaik. :)
r: say Array.^mro 14:57
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«Array() List() Iterable() Cool() Any() Mu()␤»
jnthn r: say List ~~ Positional
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«True␤»
jnthn r: say Iterable ~~ Positional
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«False␤»
GlitchMr So, class List
jnthn OK, so it is List that does Positional.
GlitchMr And Container
14:58 tokuhiro_ left
moritz no 14:58
there's no Container role or class
jnthn Sounds like a fossil to me. 14:59
GlitchMr r: Positional 15:00
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: ( no output )
dalek ecs: 0ebf6ac | moritz++ | S (2 files):
get rid of Container fossil
 15:02
c: 0cea25f | GlitchMr++ | lib/Positional.pod:
Positional role
 15:05
pmichaud good morning, #perl6 15:12
diakopter ahoy pm
jnthn morning, Pm 15:13
moritz good am, pm 15:22
diakopter um. good thing I just stopped myself from commuting to work. 15:27
jnthn Red day? :) 15:29
15:29 fhelmberger left
jnthn er...national holiday, I mean... :) 15:29
Oh, of course, it's 4th July. :)
jnthn hadn't even noticed.
moritz listens to "4th of July" by Amy MacDonald 15:30
diakopter actually. I might be able to get something done at the office today without noise from nearby cubedwellers. luckily the office is only 1 mile away. I wonder if the air conditioning will be turned on today. 15:31
moritz r: say 'pm' lt 'pir' 15:34
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«False␤»
moritz :/
pmichaud wow, lots of backscroll this morning 15:40
I want to get more notifications about commits to perl6/doc, perl6/tablet, ....
(e.g., email notifications)
either that or an RDF feed
moritz pmichaud: I'm pretty sure you can add those; you have admin privs on both repos 15:41
pmichaud moritz: yeah; I'm just trying to figure out the best way to do it
I'm not sure we want to be creating one-mailing-list-per-repo
moritz pmichaud: well, if it's only you, you can just use one of your own email addresses 15:42
pmichaud: so far nobody else has actively voiced interest
pmichaud yeah, I could do that. 15:43
let's see if I can get a rss feed or something
actually, let me review the commits first :)
moritz++ # blog post on p6doc
moritz++ # link to python 3's marketing problem article 15:44
I agree, ambitious goals are what make P6 worthwhile. 15:45
15:48 simcop2387 joined
masak I agree too. 15:49
Perl 5 is the low risk/low payoff branch of Perl language development. Perl 6 is the high risk/high payoff branch. 15:50
adu masak: it doesn't have to be that way 15:58
15:59 am0c left
adu if llvm-perl6 comes to the rescue 15:59
moritz and that would be what? 16:00
high risk, low payoff?
16:00 alc joined
masak :P 16:01
adu: I completely don't get your point, sorry.
16:05 JimmyZ left
daxim unicode tr 10 == awesome. mail.pm.org/pipermail/moscow-pm/201...13072.html 16:06
16:06 thelazydeveloper joined 16:10 dakkar left
masak rn: gist.github.com/3048087 16:11
16:11 cognominal_ joined
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Lexical EUR is not a package at /tmp/sLj4e_y5Em line 3:␤------> multi rate(EUR⏏) { 1.252 }␤␤A type must be provided at /tmp/sLj4e_y5Em line 3:␤------> multi rate(EUR⏏) { 1.252 }␤␤Lexical … 16:11
..rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«1000 EUR is 1252 USD␤»
masak \o/
that... is ever so slightly cool and scary ;)
masak hugs Perl 6
adu masak: you shouldn't have to choose, you should be able to have low risk and high payoff :)
pmichaud I suspect that p5 folks would characterize it as low risk/high payoff. (And I'd agree with them in many respects.) 16:12
masak adu: if it was possible to have low risk and high payoff, people would have already done it. www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=418
adu masak: they have, it's called Wall Street
masak pmichaud: well, it's a relative thing. we wouldn't be bothering with Perl 6 if the expected payoff wasn't higher than not doing it and focusing only on Perl 5. 16:13
16:13 cognominal left
pmichaud masak: +1 16:13
16:14 sergot joined
sergot hi o/ ! ! 16:14
masak sergocie! \o/
sergot masaku \o/
masak :D
sergot I'm back after a few days without internet. :) 16:15
diakopter adu: are you saying risk is not positively correlatd with reward on Wall Street?
masak welcome back, sergot!
adu diakopter: most definitely
diakopter adu: where do you get this idea? 16:16
masak lordfarn++ # p6u 16:17
adu diakopter: on the microcosm, CDS, MBS, and other derivatives were designed to decrease risk and increase payoff, and on the macrocosm, large companies like Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase are some of the riskiest operations on the planet, and when they fail, they get trillions in bailouts from the Federal Reserve of New York 16:18
masak everyone wants to decrease risk and increase payoff. that's a given. 16:19
Wall Street are just corrupt enough to be able to.
diakopter adu: your statement says nothing about positive correlation of risk and reward 16:20
pmichaud diakopter: I think adu's point is that negative risks aren't correlated with negative reward -- certainly not to the same degree that positive risk is correlated with positive reward 16:21
16:21 MayDaniel joined
masak "Too Big To Fail" 16:21
16:21 brrt left
adu = "systemically significant" 16:21
pmichaud so, if there's a positive correlation between risk and reward, there's at least some point where the correlation is no longer a positive one 16:22
hoelzro hey guys, I'm planning on building an XMPP bot in Perl6 16:23
but I'm going to use a helper process written in Perl5 until I write an XMPP client library in Perl6 =)
so I need to pass connection information to the client; does Rakudo have a temporary file mechanism? 16:24
diakopter pmichaud: what are negative risks?
pmichaud diakopter: negative risk: "if I accept this financial risk, there's a chance the firm might fail" 16:25
diakopter how is that distinguished from non-negative risk
pmichaud diakopter: okay, I conflated the terms, yes. 16:26
clearly, though, there's an inflection point where "increased risk" does not always translate to "increased reward" 16:27
need lunch here 16:28
adu reward = abs(risk)
diakopter I don't understand adu's point at all. First, I totally disagree that those entities are highly risky, for the very reason adu mentions.
masak hoelzro: Rakudo doesn't have a built-in temporary file mechanism, no. 16:29
hoelzro =(
masak hoelzro: what do you need? maybe we can build it quickly.
hoelzro just something like File::Temp
masak (I've heard the source is open and publicly changeable!)
pmichaud hoelzro: if it's not part of the spec (and I suspect it isn't), then it's relegated to a module (that perhaps needs writing)
hoelzro =)
masak it's not part of the spec.
hoelzro pmichaud, masak: I'd be happy to write a module
masak but even if it were, S16 is still insane and should not be heeded.
hoelzro to follow up on that...
adu diakopter: the problem with bailouts is that they reward bad behaviour, which encourages it… in a way that dilutes everybody else's purchasing power, which is bad
pmichaud hoelzro: then writing a module is the way to go :) 16:30
hoelzro how do I bind a C library to Rakudo?
masak hoelzro: please write a module. and if you get stuck, we'll help.
hoelzro yay! help!
mhasch quick perl6 question: a dash can be a part of an identifier, right?
masak binding C: that's generally zavolaj's job.
mhasch: yes-ish.
pmichaud mhasch: before an alpha char, yes.
masak mhasch: if you put it between two alphabetics.
pmichaud (before, not between)
masak r: my $b-2;
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«use of uninitialized variable $b of type Any in numeric context in block <anon> at /tmp/W4kuOZjooY:1␤␤» 16:31
hoelzro zavolaj?
masak pmichaud: between.
pmichaud r: my $b2-xyz = 3;
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: ( no output )
mhasch aha. Any idea what this is supposed to accomplish?
pmichaud masak: before
masak hoelzro: github.com/jnthn/zavolaj
diakopter adu: where did I imply I didn't think there wasn't a "problem" with bailouts?
*was
masak pmichaud: oh! right. :/ sorry.
masak sometimes mixes up "right" and "left" -- not so often "before" and "after"... :)
pmichaud r: my $b2-xyz = 'hello'; say $b2-xyz;
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«hello␤»
adu diakopter: "disagree that those entities are highly risky"? 16:32
masak surely those entities became vastly less risky by being bailed out... :)
diakopter that's what I'm saying.
pmichaud note that there's "risk to the firm" and "risk to society", which aren't the same.
mhasch r: $x=4; say $x - pi; say $x-pi 16:33
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $x is not declared␤at /tmp/Rvy6WMhGlI:1␤»
diakopter the fact they can be expected to receive bailouts makes them less risky than they otherwise would be.
adu what I'm saying is that even with bailouts, the risk to the rest of the world is still there
mhasch r: my $x=4; say $x - pi; say $x-pi
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $x-pi is not declared␤at /tmp/jg1_Uj2KZ4:1␤»
diakopter adu: risk of *what*?
adu diakopter: hyperinflation
diakopter but that has nothing to do with your original point. 16:34
birdwindupbird jj
adu diakopter: I thought that was covered by "systemically significant"
masak birdwindupbird: ww? :) 16:35
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pmichaud From a societal perspective, there's a reward to be had in allowing firms to take on riskier investments. However, there comes a point where the risks increase so much that the reward (to society) is no longer positively correlated. (How's that?) 16:35
diakopter these concepts of risk and reward to society are meaningless, because no *transaction* is taking place. or are you saying these big entities' very continued existence is somehow a transaction? 16:37
adu sergot: are you on the east coast?
masak aren't lots of transactions taking place.
adu: east coast... of Poland? :)
pmichaud certainly a transaction is taking place -- the big entities are continually making lots of transactions. From a societal perspective, the transactions have a very real effect; the question is to what degree does society allow the transactions to occurs. 16:38
adu masak: of the land of Wall Street
diakopter masak: I'm saying risk and reward can only be measured on individual transactions.
pmichaud Society's choice of what transactions to allow and which to deny are called "regulations"
masak adu: sergot is from .pl
sergot adu: I'm from Poland, as masak said. :)
masak diakopter: I don't buy that right off.
pmichaud in that sense, a "regulation" is a transaction between society and the business entities 16:39
and such regulation (transaction) carries a degree of risk and reward
masak diakopter: it would seem to me that at least some groups transactions can be treated as one big transaction in some sense.
groups of*
diakopter this discussion is silly, because now it seems you're talking about things other than investments.
masak we're talking about risks and rewards. 16:40
pmichaud clearly society makes investments in business areas (such as Wall Street) :-)
masak I started up comparing Perl 5 and Perl 6. that had nothing to do with investments, except in things besides money.
diakopter in the realm of Wall Street, risks and rewards are discussed in terms of investments.
adu's original point was about Wall Street.
masak right, but the discussion was already wider than that. 16:41
adu diakopter: I've never considered myself an economist, so I'm sure I'm using at least one or two words wrong, but I'm also not content to leave something like hyperinflation to chance, so I try and learn as much as possible to better myself
pmichaud diakopter: perhaps Wall Street from a societal perspective, though; not necessarily the view from inside Wall Street
hoelzro hmm
pmichaud just like (to come full circle), there's a difference in perception (and measurement) of risk/reward between Perl 6 language developers and the wider programming community
diakopter how was adu's original point not about investment transactions made on Wall Street? 16:42
hoelzro I would expect IO::Socket::INET.new(:listen, :localhost<127.0.0.1>) to bind to an arbitrary port on my machine
and I would expect that to be returned by $server.localport
should I throw that in?
adu diakopter: the rest of society all makes transations, either directly or indirectly with Goldman Sachs.
diakopter what are you talking about? individual investments? 16:43
pmichaud departs from the risk/reward discussion, as the reward of remaining in the channel is no longer worth the risk of starvation from not having lunch.
adu no, I'm talking about going to the ATM and getting $40
diakopter Wall Street risk/reward has nothing to do with that. that's not an investment.
adu diakopter: my definition of investment is more general i guess 16:44
to me, time, trust, dependancy, commitment, money, can all be investments 16:45
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diakopter an ATM transaction cannot possibly be an investment. there is zero risk. 16:45
16:45 cognominal_ joined
diakopter well, more accurately, zero reward. 16:46
there are zero-risk investments.
adu diakopter: there is risk, especially if Goldman Sachs fails, which might freeze all investments being made by YourLocalBank, Inc. which might cuase them to shut down for fear of a run
diakopter you don't trust FDIC? 16:47
adu diakopter: I do, it would cover about 20% of all bank deposits
diakopter how did we jump from one large bank failing (which you already said won't happen anyway due to bailouts) causing local bank to fail... to the entire economy shutting down? 16:48
adu I think the topic now is trying to see if we both use the same terms, if they mean the same things, and arguing about something 16:49
diakopter: because that what happens in every hyperinflation
bailout = inflation 16:50
lots of bailouts = hyperinflation
masak are we talking about this because I posted gist.github.com/3048087 earlier? :) 16:52
no-one commented on that gist, by the way. I think it's a neat little bit of code.
adu I did, right now 16:53
masak hm, or I could do those subs as postfixes... 16:54
r: gist.github.com/3048087
diakopter in the world of investments, risk is positively correlated with reward, always, contrary to what adu said.
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«1000 EUR is 1252 USD␤»
masak yes, that works too, and looks a bit nicer :) 16:55
diakopter: that doesn't sound like an absolute law as much as a kind of equilibrium.
diakopter if there was an inflection point in the correlation, NO ONE would invest in the financial instruments that had equal risk but less return, and therefore those instruments would not exist. 16:57
this is classical finance theory. 16:58
dalek Heuristic branch merge: pushed 16 commits to panda/pod-installing by moritz
16:59 Guest78231 left
moritz tadzik: ^^ still failing tests in the pod-installing branch. And I don't know how to run the tests in isolation, I always get some precompilation related error :/ 16:59
diakopter (and if those instruments on the upper part of the inflection hump didn't exist, the inflection point wouldn't exist)
masak diakopter: agreed. 17:01
diakopter: but it all presupposes a static, global, always known/knowable view on risks and rewards. like a full-information game.
without it, that argument holds less and less.
diakopter no, it still works if each investor has his own measurement of risk on every instrument 17:02
masak has to think about this, then
diakopter (because the individual perspective is all that matters) 17:03
I shouldn't have said "would not exist" above. I should have said "would not be relevant" 17:04
the individual will always choose that which seems to have the highest reward/risk ratio to himself. 17:05
people have very different measurements of risk on the same instruments 17:06
masak r: gist.github.com/3048087
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«1000 EUR is 1252 USD␤»
diakopter why does niecza not like it? 17:07
masak good question.
n: gist.github.com/3048087
17:07 sporous joined
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Lexical EUR is not a package at /tmp/fWh93_LQMe line 3:␤------> multi rate(EUR⏏) { 1.252 }␤␤A type must be provided at /tmp/fWh93_LQMe line 3:␤------> multi rate(EUR⏏) { 1.252 }␤␤Lexical … 17:07
masak clearly that should work.
Niecza has enums.
moritz n: multi f(2) { }
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ &f is declared but not used at /tmp/K2NPMaIjBA line 1:␤------> multi f⏏(2) { }␤␤»
masak n: enum Currency <EUR USD>; multi rate($ where { $_ === EUR }) { 1.252 }; say rate(EUR) 17:11
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«1.252␤»
masak heh, "commented on" I meant here on the channel, but on the gist itself is fine too, people ;) 17:12
17:12 fridim_ left 17:13 cognominal__ joined, cognominal_ left 17:15 xinming_ joined
diakopter masak: I should explain more. let's say you're an investor, and all you know about are municipal bonds and AAPL, and you "correctly" (by consensus) view AAPL stock as having potentially higher return than the bonds, but for some reason you "wrongly" (by consensus) evaluate the bonds as being riskier than the stock, you will definitely invest in Apple. However, most investors are unable to quantify exactly their measures of risk and reward; they just kno 17:18
so, applied to Perl 5/6.. 17:19
17:19 xinming left
diakopter (from above) ..... now some relative relationships. So, among the investments that are positively correlated in risk/reward (the only sane ones to invest in), it's very tricky/hard to choose which investment has the higher/highest 17:19
masak diakopter: you got cut off at 'they just kno'
diakopter ... reward/risk ratio. 17:20
sorry that message was spread across 3
masak I pieced them together :) 17:21
adu diakopter: are you a risk analyst? 17:22
diakopter since it is hard to quantify the relationships, each investor has to place all potential investments on a risk/reward curve
no
this is just basic investment theory, what I learned in business school, where my degree was in finance. 17:23
masak diakopter: do investors actually phrase risk in actual numbers? what's the unit of "risk"? what makes the ratio reward/risk a useful one? 17:26
diakopter that's what I mean by unable to quantify exactly and just knowing some relative relationships. In financial markest, the unit of risk is the interest rate. 17:27
in non-finance people's heads, it's very cloudy
17:28 birdwindupbird left
masak I'll bet. wouldn't you *want* to make it very non-cloudy, to better be able to determine over time where you overestimate/underestimate risk? 17:29
diakopter that's what financial advisors supposedly try to do. 17:30
people pay big money to advisors for help like that
seldon Haha.
diakopter especially to places like Goldman or JPM
seldon And it makes them have a vested interest in keeping the whole thing complicated. 17:31
diakopter maybe
masak it is complicated. 17:32
seldon Well, in some cases it is made complicated. A lot of papers have been engineered before the financial crisis that no one has a prayer of pricing reliably -- you can monte carlo the stuff, but you essentially get "it's worth somewhere between 30 and 200 with 25% confidence." 17:34
Although those have become somewhat less popular since then. 17:36
masak "Don't assume conspiracy where genuine complexity adequately explains the phenomenon." 17:37
seldon It wasn't a conspiracy. More of a fad, really.
diakopter well. I shouldn't say every investor chooses the highest reward/risk ratio. Investors also have limits or ranges of risk they are willing to take on. 17:38
17:38 mucker left
diakopter tinyurl.com/86kaosu The efficient frontier. Up to his acceptable risk limit, the investor's optimal portfolio lies somewhere on the upper portion of the curve. 17:42
possible portfolios (combinations of investments) lie inside or along the curve 17:43
note most of the graphs only bother to show the upper half 17:44
portfolios also include portfolios of single investments, so the curve applies to comparing individual investments as well. 17:45
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diakopter masak: sorry to drag this out even more, but I need to correct myself. There are many units of risk. Variability of return is basically the primary one. 17:52
which can be measured by stddev
seldon stddev here meaning black/scholes sigma*sqrt(T)? 17:53
masak calls that "variance", but maybe there are many names
seldon variance is stddev ** 2. 17:54
masak oh!
diakopter seldon: lots of measures.
masak right, so I was thinking of "deviation"
diakopter en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation#Finance
seldon diakopter: I ask because the graphs all map against the riskfree rate, so black/scholes suggests itself. It would make sense if we're talking about stock investments and such. 17:56
diakopter but like I said, there are billions of measurements of variability
seldon: are you talking about valuing call options? I just meant generic standard deviation. 17:59
dalek kudo/nom: 61a3add | pmichaud++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
Update Makefile to not abort if copying docs/announce fails. Hopefully fixes RT #113984.
 18:00
seldon Not just options, although that's of course where black/scholes and its derivatives are mostly used. If you want to evaluate the risk of a stock portfolio, you'd argue from the same assumpions, wouldn't you?
dalek atures: 7a680b1 | GlitchMr++ | features.json:
sprintf("%mf", i) doesn't work
seldon price risk, anyway. 18:01
18:01 GlitchMr left
flussence r: say sprintf('%1$s %2$s', 'right', 'left'); 18:01
p6eval rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«'$' is not valid in sprintf format sequence '%1$'␤ in sub sprintf at src/gen/CORE.setting:2067␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/63i8qNIgdp:1␤␤»
masak whee, I segfaulted rakudo! 18:02
seldon Oh, I haven't managed that yet, and I've been torturing it all day.
jnthn wonders how 18:03
diakopter seldon: I don't know. I don't remember enough from a degree 10 years ago that I haven't used at all. I just remember the basics. 18:04
I do remember *learning about* it, though, just not *it* 18:05
the types of risk are foggy, even.
dalek c: 89edaee | pmichaud++ | lib/Str.pod:
Add NYI note for 'm' modifier in sprintf, fix typo in example.
 18:06
colomon rn: sprintf("%mf", i)
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: invalid format specifier␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1277 (sprintf @ 4) ␤ at /tmp/S1c68_GU4p line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3918 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.se…
..rakudo 3bc91c: OUTPUT«'m' is not valid in sprintf format sequence '%m'␤ in sub sprintf at src/gen/CORE.setting:2067␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/VHnhKB0lVv:1␤␤»
pmichaud feels weird that 'm' would be a modifier and not its own conversion format, though. 18:08
masak aye.
colomon it's supposed to be a Complex modifier?
masak but maybe it is to say how the real/imag parts should be formatted...
pmichaud I suppose it's okay if we treat 'f' as meaning "not Integer"
masak like a metaop. 18:09
pmichaud ...but then one can argue, why do we need the 'm'?
diakopter going back to masak's and adu's original statements about Perl, it seems all adu was initially saying was that he agreed with masak that currently Perl 6 is the high risk/high payoff branch, but that llvm-perl6 might be less risky than current paths. 18:10
pmichaud does the 'm' perhaps mean "coerce to complex"? 18:11
diakopter by "it doesn't have to be that way if llvm-perl6 comes to the rescue"
masak diakopter: aye.
adu diakopter: I think that's what I was saying
pmichaud is there a llvm-perl6? 18:12
diakopter adu: it would depend a lot on who's doing it
if an llvm n00b ... very risky
18:13 seldon left
sorear gppd * #perl6 18:14
pmichaud hellp, sprear!
masak quick, get the spear out of pmichaud! o.O 18:15
pmichaud I'm just guessing that sprear's 0x6f key is mapping tp 0x70 instead. 18:16
masak or he's typing in the dark on a qwerty keyboard.
pmichaud pph, that's a ppssibility.
colomon pmichaud: it looks to me like m is intended to say "the next numeric directive refers to a complex number". So you can say %md, %mX, etc.
pmichaud ...does %md even make sense? What does it do? 18:17
flussence truncate both parts to int? 18:18
daxim best april fools: when your cow orker's computer is unattended, swap out the n/m caps on the physical keyboard, and *also* reconfigure the OS to swap n/m (a one-liner in X)
pmichaud "The m modifier works with d,u,o,x,F,E,G,X,E and G format directives, and the directive applies to both the real and imaginary parts of the complex number.
colomon rn: say sprintf("%d", 1.434)
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad, niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«1␤»
pmichaud daxin: that soumds awfully evil.
colomon so "%md", 1.343 + 5.2i should print something like 1+5i 18:19
masak aye.
colomon I don't see anything that gives the exact format for printing complex numbers, mind you.
and "%mX", 4 + 10i should print 4+Ai 18:20
masak this feels like the kind of feature that if we unspec it now, no-one in the whole world will be sad.
pmichaud would would "%md", 0 produce?
sorear 0+0i
flussence masak: the more I use printf, the less of a fan I become
colomon seems like it should be an error. or 0+0i
masak flussence: yeah. 18:21
pmichaud if 0+0i, that makes me feel like it should be its own directive instead of a modifier.
flussence r: say (3+4i).fmt('%d %d')
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«You can only coerce a Complex to Real if the imaginary part is zero␤ in method Int at src/gen/CORE.setting:9538␤ in method Int at src/gen/CORE.setting:8065␤ in any <anon> at src/gen/BOOTSTRAP.pm:96␤ in method fmt at src/gen/CORE.setting:1911␤ in block <anon> a…
pmichaud same as %d means "print as int" and %f means "print using decimal point"
then %m is "print as complex"
flussence that line used to work :/
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sorear pmichaud: what if I want to print a complex with forced exponential notation? 18:22
%me
jnthn: ping 18:23
pmichaud or it becomes another directive to replace %m, in the same way that %e and %g replace %f
colomon it seems like %me, %mf, %mg, %mE, and %mG all make sense
pmichaud it's very irregular, then. 18:24
colomon on the other hand, I'd happily drop %mx and %mX
oh, and %mo
pmichaud so, what would be the output of '%mf', 0 ? 18:25
sorear 0+0i
colomon that's certainly the obvious answer
rn: say 0i
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad, niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«0+0i␤»
pmichaud that's just weird to me. modifiers should change the format, not cast.
but it's not enough of a point for me to press any further. 18:26
I agree with masak++; I'd be just fine if it dropped altogether.
flussence r: my &f = { "{$_.re.Int}+{$_.im.Int}i" }; say f(3.5+4.7i)
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«3+4i␤»
sorear pmichaud: I take it you are not a fan of %qd in C
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colomon does anyone have insight as to why it's "m"? was it just one of the few remaining unused characgers? 18:27
pmichaud r: say (3+4i).reals.fmt("%d %d") # for flussence++
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in get_integer()␤ in method fmt at src/gen/CORE.setting:1911␤ in method fmt at src/gen/CORE.setting:5277␤ in method fmt at src/gen/CORE.setting:4690␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/8zVyycHgi2:1␤␤»
pmichaud hmmm.
pmichaud nudges masak++
flussence ooh, I haven't seen a NPMCA in a while.
jnthn sorear: pong 18:28
pmichaud r: say (3+4i).reals.sprintf("%d %d") # for flussence++
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«3 4␤»
jnthn pmichaud: I think that one may be filed, fwiw.
pmichaud r: say (3+4i).reals.sprintf("%d+%di") # for flussence++
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«3 4␤»
pmichaud oh
sorear colomon: I feel like I've seen 'm'=complex before, maybe in a C++ mangling spec
pmichaud yeah
jnthn pmichaud: If we go over the end of the args RPA to sprintf op, it gets a null PMC
pmichaud that's just weird.
jnthn pmichaud: Because Parrot indexes into it and the indexing beyond the end just returns a null PMC 18:29
pmichaud sorear: (fan of %qd) if by "not a fan of %qd" you mean "never encountered it before", then yes. :-)
jnthn: makes sense.
colomon seems like the sprintf directives all do casting, no? I mean, if you send an Int to %f, that's not an error, is it? 18:31
rn: sprintf("%f", 3) 18:32
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad, niecza v19-7-g5e25209: ( no output )
colomon rn: say sprintf("%f", 3)
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«3.000000␤»
..niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«??␤»
colomon rn: say sprintf("%f", 3.1)
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«3.100000␤»
..niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«??␤»
colomon whoops
masak submits pmichaud++'s NPMCA rakudobug
colomon sorear, FloatFixedDecimal isn't actually implemented in niecza. :)
sorear: I think I understand Printf.cs well enough to fix it. 18:33
colomon could use something practical and doable to drastic him from the insanity that is my $work at the moment. 18:34
pmichaud what the heck does "%ld" mean in a Perl 6 context anyway? 18:35
colomon cast to a int64, if I'm reading the spec right 18:36
seems kind of daft
pmichaud I think the spec was muchly copied from the p5 spec without too much thinking of "what makes sense in this context" 18:37
fwiw
18:38 nsh left
colomon would it make sense to silently ignore those directives as a form of backward compatibility? or just get rid of them altogether? 18:38
pmichaud I think we should ask ourselves: (1) if we were creating a p6 sprintf, what would we want it to look like 18:39
and as part of that, (2) what should sprintf do (if anything) for complex numbers? What about Rats? 18:40
at this stage, I think I'd be a big fan of limiting sprintf to only support the things from p5 that make sense, and not try to extend it too far into the p6 realm (e.g., for complex) before we have a more unified approach or understanding. 18:41
this follows masak++'s suggestion of "if we unspec it now, no one would mind" 18:42
just adding in 'm' modifiers ('r' modifier for rats? what about other types?) just strikes me as layering more ad-hoc solutions on top.
colomon rats shouldn't be a modifier 18:43
a %r format would make sense
masak "make sense"? 18:44
what about my custom Rats on a group I just made up and defined in my user code? 18:45
it has 256 elements which are all Unicode characters :)
19:00 ChanServ sets mode: +v ilogger2
colomon wow. sprintf.t is so weak that niecza passes it without fudging. 19:03
seldon You know of course the feature requests that are going to come. For the %r specifier an option to have N instead of N/1 if the denominator is 1, and one to have 3 1/2 instead of 7/2, that sort of thing. Complex in rational or float notation -- there's a big can of worms to open here. 19:04
colomon seldon: sure, but just because people might ask for goofy stuff shouldn't stop us from handling the simple stuff in a handy way. 19:06
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seldon True, but there is a danger of ending up with an unholy mess. 19:09
That should be kept in mind, I think.
pmichaud here's my argument for why sprintf is poorly factored as-is 19:13
how would I output a floating point number in base-16 (hexadecimal)? 19:14
using '%x' doesn't work, because the 'x' also means 'coerce to int' 19:15
seldon I think C99 has a facility for that. Hold on.
pmichaud that's what leads me to believe that the final characters specify the coercion to be performed, not just the format of the output.
flussence I'm starting to think C sprintf belongs in the same place that *other* perl5 formatting thing does; on the other side of a "use"...
adu seldon: I think it's %G 19:16
pmichaud flussence: we can still have a C-style sprintf in core; too many people will expect it to be there.
but we should limit it to the C-style things, and have a better "fmt" (or analogue) that is more p6-aware, and regularized. 19:17
adu seldon: or maybe it's %A
19:17 BlueT_ joined
seldon %a or %A, yes. 19:17
Looks funny.
adu 0x1.2p3
seldon 1.234 becomes 0x9.df3b645a1cac083p-3 19:18
19:18 moukeddar joined
pmichaud similarly, if I use any of '%e', '%f', they mean "coerce to num". 19:19
19:19 moukeddar left
pmichaud (as well as specifying an output format) 19:19
seldon The coercion is an implementation detail. It would make sense to coerce to num if you're going to build a decimal representation, but if you find another way, go nuts. 19:20
pmichaud in the case of '%x', it's not just an implementation detail, though.
masak "Error while creating backtrace: No such method 'backtrace' for invocant of type 'Any'" -- wow, fun. never had that one before. :)
seldon %x would truncate. How it does that...well, coercing to Int is probably the only sane way there, granted. 19:21
moritz masak: are you on newest rakudo? 19:27
masak: and on the REPL?
masak yes. no. 19:29
moritz masak: then please golf it down for me
masak I remember what I did, so I could try and reproduce/golf it later.
right now I'm writing stuff, though.
I'll also try and reproduce the segfault from earlier.
moritz ok 19:30
debugging the backtrace printer is sometimes a big pain
masak aye. 19:37
it's very "yo dawg"
"invoke() not implemented in class 'Callable'" -- now *that's* a new one! 19:41
19:41 Khisanth joined
colomon rn: say sprintf('%d %1$x %1$o', 12) 19:41
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«12 c 14␤»
..rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«'$' is not valid in sprintf format sequence '%1$'␤ in sub sprintf at src/gen/CORE.setting:2067␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/ipyKt4LvVr:1␤␤»
masak rn: sub foo(&x?) { &x() }; foo
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Nominal type check failed in binding '&x' in 'foo'; got Any, needed Callable␤ at /tmp/GxBFPfbRAg line 0 (foo @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/GxBFPfbRAg line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3918 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p…
..rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'Callable'␤ in sub foo at /tmp/Ph_EoJ5cjF:1␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/Ph_EoJ5cjF:1␤␤»
masak submits rakudobug
niecza's looks wrong too, but earlier. 19:42
colomon rn: sub foo(&x?) { &x() if &x.defined }; foo 19:43
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad: ( no output )
..niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Nominal type check failed in binding '&x' in 'foo'; got Any, needed Callable␤ at /tmp/vaOzcAcihf line 0 (foo @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/vaOzcAcihf line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3918 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p…
colomon masak: why is that a rakudobug? (seems clearly to be a nieczabug) 19:44
dalek c: 9bab792 | (Klaus Brüssel)++ | README:
Update master
masak colomon: I just found the error message utterly unhelpful.
colomon: Callable exists to be invoked.
colomon masak: ah
19:45 sftp joined
masak I suspect it's a Parrot leak-through. 19:45
if it were up to me, I'd have `&x?` mean `&x = {;}`. 19:46
that's my fix in the code that triggered the error.
colomon masak: seems like that stops you from doing the standard trick of &x if specified, default behavior otherwise 19:47
ie you're throwing away perfectly good information
masak hm, yes.
also, empty block isn't always right; depends on the arguments passed.
I'm fine with the error message being a better one :) 19:48
colomon yes, agreed on the error message
19:49 birdwindupbird joined
masak my commits for today's blog post are in, for those of you who are curious: github.com/masak/crypt/commits/master 19:49
today was more involved than I suspected. but a bit of nice design work took place. 19:50
dalek ecs: f891058 | pmichaud++ | S32-setting-library/Str.pod:
[S32]: Remove 'm' (complex) modifier from sprintf, in hopes of a

what about formatting Rats?).
The idea here is to take a minimalist approach to 'sprintf' -- supplying the conversions that people are familiar with from other languages and libraries, but be cautious about layering on new "ad-hoc"-ish options until we have a better plan for handling them all. This is addressed further in
  github.com/perl6/specs/issues/13 .
masak modest progress is visible from the outside. if you download the latest version, it now allows walking east :)
colomon east is a good direction
masak don't I know it. :) 19:51
I'd like to introduce a concept such as "sushi code".
making changes in this code base feels very clean and separated.
each commit is just a bunch of paragraphs. hardly any unwanted interaction between things. 19:52
pmichaud ...sounds fishy, though.
seldon How does that relate to sushi?
dalek c: 8a782c5 | pmichaud++ | lib/Str.pod:
Remove 'm' modifier from sprintf for now, per github.com/perl6/specs/commit/f891058937 .
masak seldon: it relates to "spagghetti code", where things are scattered and tangled.
seldon: here things are separated and not connected to each other so much.
seldon As opposed to lasagna and ravioli code, yes. But sushi? 19:53
masak I'm open for suggestions for a better term.
masak likes sushi, though :)
jnthn eww, sushi
seldon I have nothing against sushi, but afaik the common metaphor here is ravioli.
jnthn r: sub foo(&x?) { x() }; foo() 19:54
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«invoke() not implemented in class 'Callable'␤ in sub foo at /tmp/KcJAXsrV5f:1␤ in block <anon> at /tmp/KcJAXsrV5f:1␤␤»
dalek atures: 8472332 | pmichaud++ | features.json:
Update sprintf (there is no (longer a) '%m' conversion in the synopses.)
jnthn masak: Not sure this is a bug, though maybe an LTA error.
colomon rn: sprintf('%4f', 1.0)
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad, niecza v19-7-g5e25209: ( no output )
colomon rn: say sprintf('%4f', 1.0)
p6eval rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«1.000000␤»
..niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«??␤»
jnthn masak: It's initializing &x to Callable.
seldon I'd also point out that sushi is a bit sticky. 19:55
masak jnthn: yes.
colomon rn: say sprintf('%.4f', 1.0) 19:56
masak jnthn: I submat it on the grounds the error was LTA.
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«??␤»
..rakudo 61a3ad: OUTPUT«1.0000␤»
jnthn masak: ah, OK
masak: What error do you want?
masak jnthn: "Tried to invoke a Callable type object on $line, $file"
or $file:$line or whatever out standard is for that. 19:57
dalek p/toqast: f29b6fd | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
Implement nqp::chain, which a lot of things rely on.
masak jnthn++ # QAST 19:58
dalek kudo/toqast: 977ed5e | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
Fix EXPR action method to set name properly.
 19:59
kudo/toqast: dd583d7 | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/World.pm:
Fix constants code-gen for QAST changes.
19:59 cognominal__ joined
jnthn That's 5 out of 10 test files in t/00-parrot passing again 19:59
masak yay 20:01
dalek kudo/nom: ea8b97e | ronaldxs++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
The last patch almost worked but not quite. The old copy of the announce directory copy wrongly expanded as below:

  /bin/cp README CREDITS LICENSE docs/*/announce /home/ron/rakudo/install/share/doc/rakudo/announce
and got a stat error on docs/*/announce and failed. One might also remove the nearby announce lines but if the announcements are wanted my patch will put them there without crashing. In the rakudo build this crash does relatively little harm since it is near the end of the install. In rakudo star the crash stops the process before module builds.
kudo/nom: 810e61e | pmichaud++ | tools/build/Makefile.in:
Merge pull request #73 from ronaldxs/patch-1

The last patch almost worked but not quite. The old copy of the announc...
20:02 constantined joined
spider-mario it seems to me that VERSION in NQP’s 2012.06 tarball is out of date 20:03
pmichaud spider-mario: it is, thus there was a 2012.06.1 release
spider-mario oh, thanks
sorry
20:03 constantined left 20:09 vmspb joined 20:15 moukeddar joined, moukeddar left 20:17 icwiener joined
spider-mario .u 🙌 20:24
phenny U+1F64C (No name found)
20:26 bruges joined
masak lol, I blogged! \o/ strangelyconsistent.org/blog/july-4...directions 20:32
isn't it nice to have me back on a daily schedule? :P
jnthn Staying on top of Planet Six legitimately! o.O 20:33
pmichaud masak++
dalek kudo/toqast: 416c31c | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
Update various bits of infix:<,> call handling.
kudo/toqast: e1bf5db | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
Fix [...], to get 08-var-array.t passing again.
kudo/toqast: b9a659a | jnthn++ | src/QPerl6/Actions.pm:
First crack at fixing Q:PIR; somehow doesn't quite work out.
jnthn Ah, I think I see why it doesn't quite work out now...
dalek p/toqast: ef4c748 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/VM.nqp:
Think initialization fail in QAST::VM. Now Q:PIR actually works.
 20:39
colomon rn: say sprintf('%6f', 1.0) 20:44
p6eval rakudo 810e61: OUTPUT«1.000000␤»
..niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«??␤»
masak ?? 20:45
colomon masak: bug, which I'm working on fixing.
but 1.000000 is wrong as well, no? I would think the answer should be 1.0000
1.000000 would be %.6f, not %6f 20:46
colomon admits he is always pretty rusty at sprintf formatting.
r: say sprintf("%5.2f", 3.1415) 20:47
p6eval rakudo 810e61: OUTPUT« 3.14␤»
colomon that's right, though...
(at least, according to wikipedia's take on the C standard) 20:48
seldon colomon: %f produces 1.000000 in C. "If the precision is missing, it is taken as 6", compare ISO/IEC 9899:1999 7.19.6.1 (8) 20:49
colomon seldon: ah
rn: say sprintf('%3f', 1.0) 20:50
p6eval rakudo 810e61: OUTPUT«1.000000␤»
..niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«??␤»
dalek c: e2c9531 | (Gabor Szabo)++ | bin/p6doc:
say more words how to use
c: 42a36e3 | (Gabor Szabo)++ | .gitignore:
gitignore vim swap files
colomon seldon++ 20:52
r: say sprintf('%3.1f', 1.0)
p6eval rakudo 810e61: OUTPUT«1.0␤»
colomon r: say sprintf('%5.2g', 3.1415) 21:03
p6eval rakudo 810e61: OUTPUT« 3.1␤»
masak I renew my offer to have people find bugs in the adventure game. just download github.com/masak/crypt and do `bin/crypt`. no external modules required. 21:08
find crazy stuff. the winner gets a book. 21:09
21:10 vmspb left
dalek c: 0c8a072 | (Gabor Szabo)++ | bin/p6doc:
$*EXECUTABLE_NAME instead of hard coded perl6
 21:14
seldon I'll do that if you take a look at my bf interpreter and tell me where I made silly beginner's mistakes. codepad.org/nPBi7KP6
pmichaud I need to start discussion(s) on handling stability across releases for rakudo and rakudo star. Where would such discussions best be held? irc? blog posts? file in repo(s)?
masak szabgab++
p6c? 21:15
pmichaud yes, p6c is a possibility also.
masak actually, blog posts sounds like a nice combo of 'permanent' and 'reaches out'.
pmichaud I could start it in p6c, with file(s) in repo(s) to keep track of decisions made.
masak waye. 21:16
er, *aye
pmichaud well, I'm not wanting to reach out too far; I fear the bikesheds.
and scope creep.
21:16 bruges left
masak do you know already what you want from the discussions, or will you/we discover that as we go along? 21:17
pmichaud I have some use cases that need resolving, yes.
masak in the latter case, it'll be hard to keep bikeshedding and scope creep away.
pmichaud for example, dealing with the leading whitespaces in regexes
masak maybe best to state up-front why you are inviting to a discussion then.
sorry if this is completely obvious to you. 21:18
pmichaud no, please state "obvious" things for now.
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masak :) 21:18
seldon masak: I walked east in the beginning and now I can go nowhere and don't know where I am.
pmichaud another one is dealing with the transition of the ?-quantifier
21:19 bruges joined
masak seldon: that sounds like "expected behavior" for now. 21:19
seldon: sorry about the crappy user experience ;)
seldon So how do I find out what I'm supposed to do?
masak seldon: well, you could play the old game to get an idea of what I'm building.
seldon: 'git checkout 2011'
(might not work with a newer Rakudo) 21:20
seldon Virtual call $.name may not be used on partially constructed objects.
Indeed it does not.
masak heh.
Beijing is known to work with it. 21:21
dalek p: 5ba0df8 | pmichaud++ | src/pmc/qrpa.pmc:
Fix missing ssize initialization in QRPA.clone (jnthn++).
masak seldon: github.com/downloads/rakudo/rakudo....07.tar.gz
pmichaud (...not star?) 21:22
masak takes longer to install, and only need the compiler to run crypt :)
pmichaud +1 then
21:29 lolka_91 joined
lolka_91 hi, quick questions not related to perl :p i have a video on youtube :) it is nice but large :( so i want to download it to one of my remote servers then copy it later. is there a way to pull it from youtube?! wget did not work for me :( 21:30
masak lolka_91 == Layla91?
lolka_91 masak: there are no other crazy lolaz in the world its me :D 21:31
masak \o/
lolka_91 ^_^
masak then it's fine that you're off-topic ;)
jnthn Just a 4 of lolkat :D
er, just a *t*
...I can type :)
masak ;)
lolka_91: maybe www.bestvideodownloader.com/ will help? 21:33
or saveyoutube.com/
colomon is having to fight off a strong inclination to do a major refactor on Niecza's sprintf code....
lolka_91 masak: but the remove server is a centos 5 server with no gui :(
masak ah. 21:34
lolka_91 i miss the 20MB/s speed days :( am here with a 0.5MB/s :'(
masak lolka_91: saveyoutube.com/ might still work in lynx or links.
jnthn lolka_91: YouTube support the HTML 5 video stuff 21:35
lolka_91: That may give you something that you can wget
www.youtube.com/html5/
0.5MB/s is very :'( 21:36
lolka_91 jnthn: its crazy! :( but its ok looking at the price i need to save money :) 21:37
masak hugs lolka_91 21:38
lolka_91 masak: no need for hugs am a proud girl :P but you can lend me some money to finish college :P just kidding :D 21:39
masak hah!
proud but brazen. 21:40
phenny: en eo "brazen"? 21:41
phenny masak: "kupran" (en to eo, translate.google.com)
masak oh that was just bound to happen :)
lolka_91 masak: hmm i am not very good in english i will need to translate it :s
masak lolka_91: it's a nice word meaning "shameless". :) 21:42
phenny translates it into "made out of copper" (and puts it into the accusative) :P
lolka_91 masak: shameless! :| mmm.. maybe :p 21:43
masak :)
here in Sweden, that's almost a compliment. 21:44
phenny: "Mi estas svedo, mi ne havas honton!"?
phenny masak: "I am Swedish, I have no shame !" (eo to en, translate.google.com)
lolka_91 mmm.. if it means strong in russia girls are usually strong and not easy to approach :) 21:45
Woo found this: code.google.com/p/get-flash-videos/...geExamples
masak notices the tagmemic proximity between the concepts "brazen" and "polish" :P 21:46
sergot phenny: en pl "brazen"?
phenny sergot: "nachalny" (en to pl, translate.google.com)
jnthn lolka_91: Yes, but after surviving the initial scariness, they are kind really. Or so has been my experience. :-)
masak phenny: pl en "nachalny"?
phenny masak: "brazen" (pl to en, translate.google.com)
sergot :)
masak seems GT got the right translation in this case. 21:47
lolka_91 jnthn: i miss russia :(
masak a synonym is "insolent".
lolka_91 i must go byee :P
masak o/
phenny: en pl "insolent"?
phenny masak: "bezczelny" (en to pl, translate.google.com)
jnthn lolka_91: take care, bye o/
sergot masak: read this! :)
bye bye o/
masak o/
21:48 lolka_91 left
sergot masak: Are you interested in learning Polish? :) 21:48
masak sergot: of course! :)
I mean, who wouldn't be?
masak .oO( if I polish my Polish, I can speak more brazenly )
sergot Hm, is Polish hard to learn? :) 21:49
masak nah.
;)
sergot :)
masak you have a few extra letters, but it's really easy to pronounce, and fairly regular.
aspects are always... fun. but I kinda dig the case system.
very retro, very Latin.
sergot masak: great. :) 21:50
Jak się czujesz masaku? :) 21:51
masak Czuję się świetnie! ;)
sergot Cieszę się. :)
masak dang. :) 21:52
masak kicks GT
seldon masak: Okay, I got the old one to work, but it doesn't really help with the new. You should implement the help command :P
masak seldon: I should.
seldon: I can get it in before tomorrow's post.
seldon: there's also two old posts to 21:53
go with the old game: strangelyconsistent.org/blog/june-2...dventure-i strangelyconsistent.org/blog/june-3...venture-ii
if you're interested.
seldon++ # running the game
seldon I'm in the cave now. 21:54
masak heh :)
not bad.
I'm going to sleep now. 21:55
'night, #perl6
sergot o/ masak
seldon waves
21:56 spider-mario joined
seldon But now I have to figure out how to bind the rope to the helmet. 21:58
tadzik "0.5 MB/s is very :'(" 21:59
guys, seriously 22:00
sjohnson （　° ー°）
tadzik yeah, my thoughts exactly 22:01
I remember downloading mp3's at 3 KB/s and that was fine. And I'm not old or what 22:02
sjohnson is remined of Winplay2 or whatever it was called.
jnthn Just 'cus I remember doesn't mean it was a happy memory :)
tadzik well
sjohnson WinPlay3, that was it.
tadzik it _was_ a happy mempry
as in "yay, internet!"
jnthn Well, yes :)
But when you knew how fast internets could be...then had the 3 KB/s back home... :)
tadzik Internet! \o/ 22:06
colomon just realized niecza's sprintf makes no real effort to handle big Ints or FatRats.... 22:07
nr: say sprintf("%d", 5859203483450935893859438539034242343204923049)
]
p6eval niecza v19-7-g5e25209: OUTPUT«-2147483648␤»
..rakudo 810e61: OUTPUT«1733142185␤»
colomon nor does rakudo's, apparently 22:08
gack
pmichaud my first modem was 300bps :-)
flussence rakudo's one just passes through to parrot's printf, IIRC
pmichaud yes, currently rakudo just passes stuff to parrot.
colomon never owned a modem slower than 1200bps, but he did play with someone else's 300bps... 22:09
sergot good night! o/
pmichaud I'm guessing we'll likely re-implement sprintf in nqp.
22:12 stepnem joined 22:35 fridim_ joined
tadzik ...and he didn't say what are his exam results? 22:36
22:50 Entonian joined 22:54 fridim_ left 22:55 Entonian left 23:09 spider-mario left 23:11 simcop2387 joined 23:31 tyatpi joined
sorear colomon: I encourage you to do a major refactor on springf 23:34
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