»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
sirrobert r: class A {has $.a = 1}; my %cfg = {a => 2}; my $a = A.new(%cfg); say $a.a; 00:02
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«Default constructor only takes named arguments␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:609␤ in block at /tmp/aObT_XotEW:1␤␤»
sirrobert how do you expand a hash to use this way?
diakopter r: class A {has $.a = 1}; my %cfg = {a => 2}; my $a = A.new(|%cfg); say $a.a; 00:03
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«2␤»
sirrobert ahhh
I think I saw that before somewhere
what is the | ... operator?
diakopter "flattening"
sirrobert makes sense =)
thanks
supernovus Well, I'm out for now, sirrobert, if you like WWW::App, take a look at WWW::App::Easy -- github.com/supernovus/perl6-www-app-easy --- it's still a work in progress, but it'll be ready soon. 00:09
00:09 supernovus left
sirrobert will do 00:19
thanks =)
I'm out too, all.
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dalek d: ff6eac2 | larry++ | Actions.pm:
better(?) warning suppression
 00:40
d: df68299 | larry++ | STD.pm6:
2nd whack at speccish sigspace parsing
d: 820200c | larry++ | STD.pm6:
repeat requires while or until
d: 840c157 | larry++ | CORE.setting:
fix casemap fossils
00:40 clkao joined
TimToady evalbot rebuild std 00:40
p6eval OK (started asynchronously)
00:50 alvis left 00:54 Guest39929 left
diakopter ... as if it could report it started synchronously 00:55
dalek d: adada5f | larry++ | STD.pm6:
modernize ** to +%
 00:56
TimToady I've taken to just writing it "foo +% bar" everywhere instead of "foo+ % bar", since the space is harmless under token, and what you usually want under rule anyway 01:00
seems to be healthier psychologically to keep the +% together most of the time
std: repeat { ... };
p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'repeat' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 41m␤» 01:01
TimToady suspects std isn't really rebuilding 01:02
benabik f43a358 is from jul 30
sorear I also doubt that rebuild works 01:18
for various painful reasons p6eval's rebuilder no longer runs on the same machine as p6eval and dalek
diakopter std: repeat { } while do do { }; 01:45
p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 41m␤»
TimToady needs to manage a 'make reboot' for the ** to +% transtion
and a 'make reboot' isn't actually successful currently... 01:48
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dalek osystem: b080b79 | (Timothy Totten)++ | META.list:
Added WWW::App::Easy, an MVC framework for Perl 6 Web Applications.
 01:58
diakopter n: say -0 02:04
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«0␤» 02:05
Timbus oh wow. supernovus, this module is pretty great 02:06
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dalek osystem: f689bf9 | (Timothy Totten)++ | META.list:
Removed Esquel, it is currently very broken, rewrite planned for later.
 02:08
Timbus im assuming content-type is text/html by default and you dont hactually have to set it per handler
diakopter n: say *&1&&**&1**1&**&&1&* 02:11
supernovus Timbus: Glad you like it. Actually, the current WWW::App (the library WWW::App::Easy is based upon) doesn't set a default Content-Type header if none was found. I'll add that to the TODO list.
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤»
diakopter TimToady: what would &&**& mean above 02:12
Timbus oh, well yeah it definitely should
TimToady ** is HyperWhatever 02:13
sorear n: ** 02:14
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method postcircumfix:<( )> in type Any␤ at /tmp/pfKJUi9mXx line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3929 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3930 (module-CORE @ 564…
sorear n: {**}
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method postcircumfix:<( )> in type Any␤ at /tmp/hV_tZIkAIG line 1 (mainline @ 6) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3929 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3930 (module-CORE @ 564…
sorear n: -> { ** }
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: ( no output )
sorear whatever it is, it only dies at runtime
diakopter n: say (*&1&&**&1*****1&**&&1&*)({},{}) 02:17
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«all({}, 1)␤»
diakopter n: say (*&1&&**&1*****1&**&&1&*)({2},{3}) 02:18
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method postcircumfix:<( )> in type Any␤ at /tmp/g4UDJ3GsSD line 1 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /tmp/g4UDJ3GsSD line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3929 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/C…
diakopter n: say (*&1&&**&1*****1&**&&1&*)({2},{})
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method postcircumfix:<( )> in type Any␤ at /tmp/1S5DK0H61P line 1 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /tmp/1S5DK0H61P line 1 (mainline @ 8) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3929 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/C…
diakopter n: say (*&1&&**&1*****1&**&&1&*)({},{3}) 02:19
benabik Has someone been using GA to generate P6?
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«all({}, 1)␤»
diakopter n: say (*&1&&**&1*****1&**&&1&*)({})
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: No value for parameter 'anon_2' in 'ANON'␤ at /tmp/axPOJjuD1F line 0 (ANON @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/axPOJjuD1F line 1 (mainline @ 8) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3929 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting lin…
diakopter n: say (*&1&&**&1*****1&**&&1&*)()
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: No value for parameter 'anon_0' in 'ANON'␤ at /tmp/90ic21pylj line 0 (ANON @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/90ic21pylj line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3929 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting lin…
diakopter sorear: it counts from anon_0 to anon_2 ?
sorear those are gensyms 02:20
they increment in the order structures are parsedr
n (* + *); (* + *)() 02:21
n: (* + *); (* + *)()
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: No value for parameter 'anon_3' in 'ANON'␤ at /tmp/4iSfBtSTyU line 0 (ANON @ 1) ␤ at /tmp/4iSfBtSTyU line 1 (mainline @ 4) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3929 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting lin…
sorear and they don't reset except with new files
diakopter oh
why would it take {} but not {3}
for the first argument 02:22
sorear in that last sample I think anon_2 is the * + * closure; niecza does not support truly anonymous closures
{} is a Hash, {3} is a Block
diakopter why would it take a Hash but not a Block
supernovus Timbus: Okay, if no Content-Type or Location header is found prior to sending the PSGI response, it adds a Content-Type of text/html. 02:26
Timbus rad 02:27
diakopter n: do { } & while 1 { } # <blink> 02:28
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method from in type P6+{term:sym<∅>},{infix:sym<∈>},{infix:sym<(elem)>},{infix:sym<∉>},{infix:sym<∋>},{infix:sym<(cont)>},{infix:sym<∌>},{infix:sym<∪>},{infix:sym<(|)>},{infix:sym<∩>},{infix:sym<(&)>},{infix:sym<(-)>}…
Timbus now make it automatically pick if the url has .txt or .json at the end and you have yourself a feature
supernovus Well, that's a bit much for WWW::App itself, but for WWW::App::Easy, I'll make some magic dispatch rules that can easily be included in a web app to do just that. 02:29
Anyway, enough for tonight. Hope someone finds the library useful. I need to expand the documentation, as currently you need to read the WWW::App documentation in addition to the WWW::App::Easy to figure out all of the different features. 02:31
diakopter n: do { } , while 1 02:32
std: do { } , while 1
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
std f43a358: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 43m␤»
diakopter TimToady: what does the above comma do? 02:33
02:33 supernovus left
diakopter (or anyone, of course) 02:34
TimToady treats do{} as a list of 1 element
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diakopter n: say <-> { } >0 02:43
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot use value like Block as a number␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 295 (Any.Numeric @ 6) ␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/bGx7tNqS1k line 1 (mainline @ 3) …
diakopter n: say <-> { }>0
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«{ ... }␤»
diakopter @.@
what would that mean?
(why would it not like the space in the first example but accept the 2nd example?) 02:45
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TimToady it has something to do with the endargs memo, so it determines whether say's args end there 02:52
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diakopter :S 02:54
well, it parsed the first one, just interpreted the > as greater than I think. 02:55
diakopter tries less hard to understand 02:56
n: say { }<->{ }<->{ } 02:59
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
diakopter o_O 03:00
why wouldn't it be a boolean
(how else could it parse?)
oh :) 03:02
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benabik What is <->? 03:09
diakopter rn: say { '-' => 4 }<-> 03:10
p6eval rakudo 038a3c, niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«4␤»
benabik Ah. either a list or a subscript. right.
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dalek d: e20e129 | larry++ | STD.pm6:
fix endargs wrt whitespace, diakopter++
 04:03
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moritz \o 06:07
adu o/ 06:08
sorear o/
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tadzik '/ 06:24
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diakopter moritz: I was considering replying to the "kill the spokesbug with fire" thread with something like this: 06:36
TimToady thinks replying with silence is one of the good options :) 06:38
sorear replying with silence only works if we can enforce it 06:39
moritz "Camelia is fire-proof. Killing it is fire is just as effective a killing a fish with water" 06:41
TimToady: well, if somebody offers to contribute a different design, it's not nice to let him do all the work, and not merge it in the end. Which is why I broke my silence after a mockup was made 06:42
diakopter "...makes language with 10 years of development look less mature than..." - Perl 6 does not want to contrive an image of maturity. Instead, it intends to be cutesy and whimsical for the foreseeable future, and let a reputation of maturity grow organically in the long term. <Please correct me if/where my understanding is wrong> 06:45
cosimo all this discussion makes me want to create a new design for perl6.org
:-) 06:46
diakopter I too am not a fan of the current design, and I'm not afraid to admit it because I don't believe that only those willing/able to help out should offer critiques.
that said, I am not able to design a better one because I suck at design. 06:47
cosimo me too, but would be nice to try anyway
diakopter the multicolored spokesbug would make for a nice splash of color on a page with far less color contrasts/busyness than the current one 06:50
making the color palette of the site the same as the logo makes the logo not stand out, and is way overkill 06:51
(especially because the logo has so many colors) 06:54
I recommend a palette for the rest of the page with some grays and perhaps one of the logo's colors, less neon and even more pastel than the current divs on the site 06:57
dark pastel. 07:01
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Saravanan Hi Everybody 07:15
i want to be a perl6 contributor 07:16
can anyone guide me how to start
diakopter Saravanan: welcome! do you know how you would like to contribute?
TimToady what are your interests? 07:17
diakopter (implementation, tests, documentation, evangelism, or others I'm sure I'm forgetting)
Saravanan i dono
i am blank
@diakopter .. can u please guide 07:18
where to start
moritz Saravanan: do you know any programming languages already? if yes, which?
Saravanan perl
moritz Saravanan: then maybe pick your favorite Perl 5 module, and implement it in Perl 6
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TimToady don't start with DBI :) 07:19
moritz right :-)
there's a (very loose) port of that already, called DBIish
sorear Saravanan: how long have you been using p5? programming in general?
moritz modules.perl6.org/ has the existing Perl 6 modules 07:20
diakopter Saravanan: let's start by helping you obtain a working Perl 6 install 07:23
Saravanan 4 years
ok.. 07:24
diakopter Saravanan: do you use Linux? Windows? Mac?
Saravanan fedora and mac 07:25
but i prefer fedora
diakopter well, there are several implementations. Let's start with rakudo. Do you have experience building softare from source? 07:26
Saravanan no..
diakopter okay; we can help you with that 07:27
Saravanan this is my first time
diakopter you might need a few things installed in your fedora. in a terminal type sudo yum groupinstall "Development Tools" 07:28
brrt for the record, and not to be annoying, i do believe fedora comes with rakudo star 07:29
GlitchMr Fedora?
I think they have Rakudo Star 2011.07 07:30
yum install rakudo-star
Saravanan ok..
GlitchMr If you want newer release, I guess you would have to compile
TimToady that's pretty old though
tadzik yeah
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diakopter Saravanan: did you decide whether you want the year-old version of rakudo or the most recent? Install git, gcc, and make to build the latest 07:37
Saravanan ok..
which will be better
old
or new
diakopter let's try building the new one 07:38
there have been many changes
Saravanan ok..
i will back after lunch
jnthn mornin' 07:45
tadzik hello jnthn
diakopter ahoy
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sorear yo jnthn 07:46
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arnsholt o/ 07:59
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adu Saravanan: or you can do what I do 08:04
GlitchMr std: do { } for 1; 08:07
p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of do...for; in Perl 6 please use repeat...for at /tmp/ocDd4DEbqD line 1:␤------> do { } for 1⏏;␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 41m␤» 08:08
GlitchMr std: repeat { } for 1;
p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Undeclared routine:␤ 'repeat' used at line 1␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 41m␤»
TimToady the first message is bogus, and the second one is fixed (but not recompiled for the evalbot) 08:19
jnthn will pull that second one into Rakudo later today, if he's not beaten to it 08:20
moritz . ..--.ö..ö-8,, ,m.,m ,mlm mm 08:21
sorear guten Morgen Ronja 08:22
moritz danke :-) 08:23
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jnthn -> meeting 08:44
moritz -> 6h commute to $vacation 08:46
sorear -> sleep 09:00
masak guten ugt morning, #perl6
hoelzro morgen
tadzik masak! \o/
Saravanan @diakopter as of now i will use mac 09:13
my fedora box is troubling
how to install rakudo in mac 09:14
hoelzro Saravanan: I used to do with homebrew, but the latest formula doesn't work for me 09:15
Saravanan oh.. 09:16
brrt parrot works on a mac, that i know for sure 09:26
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brrt Saravanan: whats troubling? 09:26
Saravanan that's hardware problem 09:27
brrt oh, then irc can't help you much :-)
Saravanan :-)
brrt you can certainly install parrot and rakudo on a mac, although i would not now know how
Saravanan ok..
i will try to add vmware in mac 09:28
or virtualbox
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brrt thats not necessary 09:29
bonsaikitten prefix portage would be my lazy guess 09:32
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masak Saravanan: welcome. 09:48
sorry to hear you're having trouble building Rakudo.
we'll try to help. 09:49
Saravanan ok.
masak also, let us know if you need any more Perl 6 resources: documentation, tutorials, tips... 09:54
there's plenty at perl6.org, but sometimes it's still easier to ask here ;)
Saravanan :-) 09:59
daxim can someone correct the spelling on <rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/>? s/OpenSuSE/openSUSE/ 10:14
Saravanan Successfully installed rakudo :-) 10:16
diakopter: i had installed rakudo 10:17
next step?
masak next step: awesomeness. 10:21
r: say "OH HAI $_" for 1..5
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«OH HAI 1␤OH HAI 2␤OH HAI 3␤OH HAI 4␤OH HAI 5␤»
Saravanan its working 10:28
:-)
great
masak \o/ 10:30
Saravanan: pro tip: the fastest way to Perl 6 mastery is to be curious and ask a lot of questions about things you're learning. we won't bite, and we're very helpful and responsive. 10:31
Saravanan ok..
how to install modules in perl6
is that same as perl5?
daxim similar
Saravanan ok..
in perl6 OO is inbuild? 10:32
daxim yes!
Saravanan i mean pure OO
daxim it's unpure OO, perl6 is like perl5 a multi-paradigm language
Saravanan ok.. 10:33
huf what's a pure oo?
Saravanan as in java or c++
daxim when you cannot do procedural programming
Saravanan hmm 10:34
tadzik so not like C++
huf hm. both java and c++ let you do procedural programming :)
yeah
Saravanan so diff btw perl5 and perl6 10:35
huf perl6's builtin OO is like perl5+Moose except so much more
i guess...
daxim too many to name here, there's a list in the online documentation somewhere
tadzik Saravanan: you may like the "Perl 5 to 6" series of articles
it's linked on perl6.org/documentation I believe 10:36
Saravanan s
daxim I just updated the page <en.opensuse.org/Rakudo> (uuurgh, mediawiki), do you see the newest version with a table at the bottom or the previous one with section headings? 10:38
flussence looks out of date here 10:39
tadzik no table here
daxim then I really have to wait for someone to release
Saravanan ok 10:40
masak Saravanan: Perl 6's OO is "pure" in the sense that even if you don't care about objects, things tend to be objects. 10:42
it's also "pure" in the sense that the OO system is implemented using the OO system itself.
but really, maybe there isn't really any "pure" OO out there. even Smalltalk, the most obvious candidate, is opinionated in various ways. 10:43
everything I've ever read purporting to explain what OO "really" is has turned out to be yet another opinion ;) 10:44
Saravanan :-
:-)
huf :)
masak let me show you a few cool things about Perl 6's OO, though: 10:45
daxim one can certainly form a majority report on the opinions
GlitchMr OOP is just syntactic sugar. Tell me difference between $something.do_something() and do_something($something)
masak daxim: yeah, and one would end up with... Java.
GlitchMr: those used to be the same in Perl 6, but they're not any more. 10:46
GlitchMr: you do have a point, though. even if you're not 100% right.
huf whoa, foo($bar) used to do method lookup? that'd be surprising....
masak r: class A { has $.x; has $.y; }; say A.^attrs>>.name
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«No such method 'attrs' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW'␤ in block at /tmp/eJjESD4QOV:1␤␤»
masak r: class A { has $.x; has $.y; }; say A.^attributes>>.name
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«$!x $!y␤»
masak \o/
GlitchMr Commonly in object oriented languages object is first.
In procedural, method is first.
masak huf: no, more like methods marked with 'our' (or a star, I don't remember) got auto-exported as subroutines. 10:47
GlitchMr It's just different order (and somewhat different syntax)
masak GlitchMr: no, there's a real distinction between non-method procedures and methods, IMO.
GlitchMr: but you can simulate a method call by pretending that the first argument is an invocant. 10:48
lumi_ GlitchMr: $something.do_something() is like invoke(get_method(get_type($something),"do_something"),$something)
masak and it's correct that many languages/VMs actually implement it that way.
lumi_++ # nice
yes, that captures the mro thing, too.
GlitchMr print $_%2 for (0 ... *)[^100] 10:49
...
oops
wrong paste
String.prototype.toUpperCase.call('hello, world')
masak was just going to mention JavaScript :)
yes, JavaScript is another language that emulates method invocation by folding the invocant as a first argument of some underlying invocation form (.call in this case) 10:51
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masak which means that you can take a method of object A and call it on an unrelated object B. 10:51
just like you can in Perl 5. 10:52
in Perl 6, that's not possible unless B is a kind of A.
r: class A { our method foo { say "OH HAI" } }; class B {}; &A::foo(B.new)
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter ''; expected A but got B instead␤ in method foo at /tmp/i7nzxuZqya:1␤ in block at /tmp/i7nzxuZqya:1␤␤»
masak r: class A { our method foo { say "OH HAI" } }; class B is A {}; &A::foo(B.new)
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
masak :)
GlitchMr I know. I use this trick to emulate super in JavaScript
masak if you emulate super in JavaScript, let me suggest that you're not going by the grain of the language ;) 10:53
it's a *prototypal* language, not a super language.
the inheritance is differential, not classical.
GlitchMr B = new A(); B.prototype.method = function () { A.prototype.method.apply(this, arguments); alert('But this is B!'); } 10:54
masak yeah, I've seen that pattern. 10:55
Saran masak.. r u talking abt the difference between perl 5 and perl 6
masak Saran: yes.
and we also brought JavaScript into the discussion. 10:57
JavaScript has the same looseness in pairing methods with objects.
Perl 6 is a little more strict, as you can see in the above p6eval conversation. 10:58
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GlitchMr r: module Object { sub new { bless {}, 'Object' }; sub test($self) { $self.perl.print } }; Object.new.test 10:59
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&bless' called (line 1)␤»
GlitchMr I guess I shouldn't attempt Perl 5 code in Perl 6
Saran saravanan This link will guide with the differences and how to learn perl6 with the help of perl5 perlcabal.org/syn/Differences.html 11:00
hoelzro GlitchMr: I believe in Perl 6 it's self.bless(*)
GlitchMr r: module Object { sub new { self.bless(*) }; sub test($self) { $self.perl.print } }; Object.new.test
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤'self' used where no object is available␤at /tmp/Y0BG9Zq3gd:1␤»
Saravanan whether we have bless in perl6
if it has inbuilt OO then why we need bless in perl6? 11:01
tadzik bless is a part of this OO we have 11:02
masak GlitchMr: you can only use 'self' inside methods.
GlitchMr r: module Object { sub method { self.bless(*) }; method test { self.perl.print } }; Object.new.test
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤'self' used where no object is available␤at /tmp/BDe8BcnJ5X:1␤»
GlitchMr r: module Object { method new { self.bless(*) }; method test { self.perl.print } }; Object.new.test 11:03
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in module␤Useless declaration of a has-scoped method in module␤You cannot create an instance of this type␤ in method bless at src/gen/CORE.setting:618␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:606␤ in block at /tmp/m4kNnL…
masak GlitchMr: and calling a sub 'method' doesn't make it a method :P
r: my $m = method { self.bless(*) }; class A {}; say A."$m"()
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«No such method '<anon>' for invocant of type 'A'␤ in block at /tmp/mizHWATMNb:1␤␤»
masak hm :)
r: my $m = method { self.bless(*) }; class A {}; say $m(A)
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«A.new()␤»
masak \o/
r: my $m = method { self.bless(*, :x<42>) }; class A { has $.x }; say $m(A) 11:04
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«A.new(x => "42")␤»
GlitchMr rosettacode.org/wiki/Non-decimal_ra...ert#Perl_6
Is it possible without eval (which he by accident called "val")
masak no, it's "val". 11:05
it's an eval for values.
GlitchMr I'm confused
masak and no, it's not possible to parameterize on the base. that's why "val" is used.
n: say val ":2<1110>" 11:06
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«:2<1110>␤»
masak hrm.
GlitchMr But, can I do :16('FF') or something like this?
masak n: say val "0b1010"
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«0b1010␤»
GlitchMr It's good enough for me then
masak n: say val "0x55"
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«0x55␤»
Saran saravanan ..it is advised to go with few basics of perl6..then it will be easy to understand
masak sorear: I think all those should be parsed as ints.
Saravanan ok.. 11:09
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masak rn: say "ß" ~~ m:i/ß/; say "ß" ~~ m:i/SS/; say "SS" ~~ m:i/ß/; 11:16
11:16 MayDaniel left
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«q[ß]␤␤#<failed match>␤#<failed match>␤» 11:16
..niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(1) text(ß) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤False␤False␤»
masak what's the rule for case insensitiveness in regexes? 11:17
rn: say "ß".uc
p6eval rakudo 038a3c, niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«ß␤»
masak hm. 11:18
11:19 JimmyZ joined
arnsholt Pretty sure that's wrong 11:25
masak aye. 11:26
GlitchMr codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/6936/3103 11:33
I'm almost sure I could golf this better :)
Timbus say [*] [xx] .words for get 11:43
masak say [*] [xx] get>>.words 11:44
Timbus i was trying to do that
masak one shorter if you use » :)
Timbus »:) 11:46
klingon smile
GlitchMr The problem is that both Timbus and masak solutions end after first line :P 11:49
But he hasn't specified that
So it could work too
Timbus nput given as: x y (separated by a space)
looks perfect to me 11:50
GlitchMr I'm already confused
Perl 6 doesn't win with GolfScript, but it has chance in CodeGolf :) 11:52
...
Except I did it wrongly
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Timbus you did! 11:55
say [**] [xx] get>>.words is the obvious one but incurs a penalty 12:02
say [**] [xx] @*ARGS 12:06
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Timbus 30 pts including penalty. not bad 12:09
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flussence I'm getting nowhere but this looks interesting - 12:16
given '2 4'.words { say [*] [xx] .[0], ^(.[1])»+»1 }
r: given '2 4'.words { say [*] [xx] .[0], ^(.[1])»+»1 }
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«16777216␤»
flussence only 8 bits off :)
Timbus lol. what's it meant to be 12:19
r: say [**] [xx] (2,4)
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«65536␤»
Timbus close!
12:21 xinming joined 12:25 xinming_ left
masak r: say [**] [xx] 2,4 12:30
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«65536␤»
masak r: say [**][xx]2,4
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/3U4zQfKKYR:1␤»
masak r: say [**] [xx]2,4 12:31
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/g0ag4TFkC7:1␤»
masak :)
GlitchMr Why reduce operators care so much about spaces? 12:32
JimmyZ array
r: say $a[xx][*] 12:33
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $a is not declared␤at /tmp/g_I4Uhls57:1␤»
JimmyZ r: say $a [xx] [*] 12:34
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $a is not declared␤at /tmp/392OiiL3_2:1␤»
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sirrobert hi p6 12:42
tadzik hi
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sirrobert what is the : in this syntax doing: $foo.somemethod: $somesub; 12:46
tadzik it's like $foo.method($sub) 12:47
sirrobert ok
does it have a particular name?
tadzik I don't know 12:48
sirrobert huh, it's only for methods, not subs 12:50
JimmyZ well, for subs is: sub args
sirrobert yeah 12:51
was just understanding the ... domain of the operator
masak I tend to think of it as the "rest of the statement is method args" colon :) 12:52
sirrobert heh
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PerlJam r: sub foo ($alpha: $beta) { } # just checkign 13:08
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: ( no output )
PerlJam std: sub foo ($alpha: $beta) { }
p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ $beta is declared but not used at /tmp/sPeLWXdUQR line 1:␤------> sub foo ($alpha: ⏏$beta) { }␤ $alpha is declared but not used at /tmp/sPeLWXdUQR line 1:␤------> sub foo (⏏$alpha: $beta) { }␤ok 00:00 4…
13:10 Saravanan left 13:11 wtw left
Saravanan1 hi 13:12
13:13 JimmyZ left
tadzik hello Saravanan1 13:13
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masak Saravanan1: how's everything going? 13:14
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masak PerlJam: I believe we have an RT ticket for invocant colons in sub declarations. 13:16
hm, seems not. 13:17
masak submits rakudobug
PerlJam std: sub foo ($alpha: $beta) { say "$alpha $beta" }
p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 43m␤»
PerlJam It would be a stdbug too then
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masak rn: sub foo($alpha: $beta) { say "$alpha: $beta" }; foo 42, "OH HAI" 13:19
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«42: OH HAI␤»
..rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«Lexical 'self' not found␤ in sub foo at /tmp/PCatPFMUMH:1␤ in block at /tmp/PCatPFMUMH:1␤␤»
masak actually, I'm not so sure supplying an invocant this way to a sub is an error.
PerlJam yeah, I was thinking that too :)
masak but Rakudo's behavior above surely is.
masak submits rakudobug
PerlJam masak++
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sirrobert What should that do? 13:21
sub foo ($alpha: $beta)
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masak sirrobert: we don't know. 13:22
13:22 jeffreykegler left
PerlJam sirrobert: separate the args that participate in multi-dispatch from those that don't (maybe) 13:22
sirrobert heh ok
masak either error or it should be fine. 13:23
sirrobert fair enough =)
hey, btw
masak PerlJam: no, both the invocant and the rest of the arguments before ;; participate in MMD to exactly the same amount.
s/amount/extent/
sirrobert as I've been using (learning) p6, I'm trying to be helpful by blogging about it. What kind of stuff is helpful to write about?
PerlJam It's too early for me to think clearly and I haven't had my caffiene yet. 13:24
masak sittobert: to a first approximation, anything you feel is interesting.
sirrobert I'll try to find my "voice" about it =)
PerlJam sirrobert: Have you looked as "Using Perl 6"? Anything that fills the gaps from that book would be good to blog about.
masak r: class A {}; class B is A {}; class C { multi method foo(B) { say "C" } }; class D is C { multi method foo(A) { say "D" } }; D.new.foo(B.new)
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«Ambiguous call to 'foo'; these signatures all match:␤:(C , B , Mu *%_)␤:(D , A , Mu *%_)␤␤ in method foo at src/gen/CORE.setting:334␤ in block at /tmp/i2yosE1L2F:1␤␤»
sirrobert PerlJam: good idea =)
masak PerlJam: the above conflict demonstrates this. 13:25
here's a random suggestion for how .sort should sort by default: 13:27
(a) if the values compared are equal by ===, sort them as equal 13:28
(b) if the values are of the same type, sort them by cmp 13:29
(c) if the values are of different types, sort the type name by leg
or maybe this behavior should be folded into cmp itself.
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[Coke] sort on type name seems odd, if you have a type hierarchy where you can still compare things (like in the numbers) 13:35
masak yes, but (a) will catch that. 13:36
rn: say 4 === 4.0
p6eval rakudo 038a3c, niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«False␤»
masak hm :/
am I thinking of some other equivalence, like eqv, perhaps?
rn: say 4 eqv 4.0 13:37
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«False␤»
..niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«True␤»
masak heh!
masak wants to submit a bug, but doesn't know on what
masak reads spec
infix:<eqv>: S03:1303: "Compares two objects for canonical equivalence. For value types compares the values." 13:38
well, it's the *same* value, no?
masak submits rakudobug
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masak rn: say 4e1 eqv 4; say 4e1 eqv 4.0 13:55
p6eval rakudo 038a3c, niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«False␤False␤»
masak sorear: why does Niecza go True for 4 eqv 4.0 but not for those two?
at least Rakudo is being consistent. 13:56
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TimToady it is a nieczabug, not a rakudobug, since === and eqv can only match if the types are the same 14:20
masak rejects the rakudobug 14:21
masak submits nieczue
TimToady: any thoughts on subs with an invocant parameter? 14:22
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TimToady not before coffee 14:23
masak ;)
TimToady esp since I only got 5 hours sleep
masak :/
tadzik one does not cast spells without mana potions
TimToady because I was hacking on STD :)
masak heh :)
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masak TimToady: when I saw your "I can't commit this thing before I've committed these things", I wanted to tell you about git-stash 14:24
TimToady is close (cross fingers) to having the sigspace stuff working again
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sirrobert git stash is super nice =) 14:25
love that it's a stack
TimToady yes, that looks nice 14:26
masak 'git stash [save]' and 'git stash apply' are complementary actions, and the two I use the most. 14:32
I love how it's using commits to save away my changes. 14:33
(without hooking those commits onto any branch)
PerlJam how long do your stashes stay around?
(I use stash quite a bit too but I find that sometimes I forget about them) 14:34
masak that's a really good quesion.
sirrobert I think they stay around indefinitely (until you clear them)
PerlJam whereas if I put my changes in a branch, they are less likely to be forgotten
masak somewhere between 10 seconds and 10 kiloseconds, most of the time.
hoelzro PerlJam: that's my issue
masak yeah, branches are nice, too. they're the "next step" after stashes. 14:35
hoelzro I often forget about them =/
sirrobert I use stash as something like a clipboard
I only put stuff in there I'm ok to lose, or that I want to copy from one branch to another.
masak and I keep forgetting and re-remembering that branches are very throwaway, too, and can be created en masse for various experiments.
yeah, stashing is like an anonymous mini-branch of sorts. 14:36
PerlJam sirrobert: If you're copying from one branch to another, then surely you don't need the stash?
sirrobert well, I don't mean literally copying, more like "sticking them in there to see if there are applicable bits"
I often have a stash that's several layers deep and pop to the one I want 14:37
PerlJam ah
sirrobert kinda like an undo/redo =)
lumi_ r: say 4e1 14:38
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«40␤»
lumi_ masak: That's why the first one fails
PerlJam lumi++ (math skills ;) 14:39
sirrobert heh
masak I fail math today. 14:40
masak rises from the ashes and moves on ;)
rn: say 4e0 eqv 4; say 4e0 eqv 4.0
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«True␤True␤»
..rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«False␤False␤»
masak yeah, niecza is consistently wrong on those. lumi_++ 14:41
TimToady now if only git stash would save and restore all the vim sessions I have up in that directory, it might be useful to me
timotimo surely you could write a perl one-liner that does this ... :) 14:44
TimToady debugging STD/viv when you have no valid CORE setting and compiling CORE.setting fails in the first whitespace is...not trivial
timotimo hm. there's python and ruby for vim, but is there also perl for vim? i wonder ...
hoelzro timotimo: sure there is 14:45
if by "perl for vim", you mean that Vim can be built with an embedded Perl
TimToady I went to bed last night when I managed to get CORE to parse up to line 8, so at least it's parsing some sigspace now
14:51 fgomez left
dalek d: 66387b5 | larry++ | STD.pm6:
restrict do {} obs message to while/until
 14:55
TimToady GlitchMr++ for that, btw 14:57
jnthn back 15:01
JimmyZ welcome back 15:02
masak good ugt morning, jnthn! 15:03
jnthn TimToady: Heh, sounds like the fun I had getting CORE.setting parsing again when putting QRegex in place...
TimToady: I'd say "have fun", but it was more "argh why" :)
masak that's because you forgot to have fun 15:04
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jnthn masak: It's kind of a yak-shavey task :) 15:05
masak yeah. I was kidding ;)
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jnthn re 114438 I suspect invocants should be forbidden on subs, but I didn't backlog to see if any other discussion happened with regard to it 15:05
masak mad props to both jnthn and TimToady, of course. 15:06
jnthn ah, I didn't sleep well enough to do humor :P
Well, I can probably pun still... :)
masak jnthn: I started out supposing that it should forbid it too. it's certainly the conservative thing to do.
if it works, then it should work like in Niecza.
jnthn I know STD has some invocant_ok thingy. I think I didn't steal it into Rakudo's grammar. 15:07
It may be related to taht.
masak n: sub foo($alpha: $beta) { say "$alpha: $beta" }; foo 42, "OH HAI"
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«42: OH HAI␤»
15:07 obra left
masak jnthn: well, std allows it too! 15:07
std: sub foo($alpha: $beta) { say "$alpha: $beta" }; foo 42, "OH HAI"
p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 44m␤»
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jnthn bah :) 15:08
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tadzik "We have an implementation of Perl 6 that's gonna start to be worth using in the next year or so" -- Damian on radar.oreilly.com/2012/08/damian-co...-perl.html 15:14
nice interview it is
15:15 obra joined
masak tadzik: Damian Conway, is that the guy who said "the next year or so" back in 2001? :P 15:15
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masak s/said/wrote/ 15:15
PerlJam I'm not sure what to make of Damian anymore ... It's like he's disconnected from the community, but every once in a while pops up to say "I'm still here, look at this awesome thing" 15:17
(at least I don't quite see how he's connected like he used to be)
masak I've had that feeling too. but that seems to be his MO. 15:18
at least when he's involved, he is involved. 15:19
I would prefer if he would pop up on the channel occasionally, but he doesn't seem to be a pop-up-on-the-channel kind of guy.
GlitchMr back
TimToady: I was just testing if github.com/perl6/std/issues/1 was fixed
I will do moritz++ instead 15:20
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TimToady s/instead/in addition/ :) 15:23
this isn't a zero-sum game...
diakopter o_O TimToady before 9 a.m.? 15:24
diakopter apparently needs coffee too 15:25
masak diakopter: we're all on UGT now :P 15:26
I like blog.stackoverflow.com/2012/08/stac...a-qa-site/ not just because of the excellent geek troll picture. it makes good points.
TimToady * can mean UGT too
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diakopter oh noes. no one show TimToady codegolf.stackexchange.com 15:42
TimToady n: say +val '0x55'
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«85␤»
TimToady masak: when you use the string version of val, you just get the string back
diakopter it's like rosettacode except crazy 15:43
TimToady n: say <0x55> 15:44
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«85␤»
TimToady note that <> is specced to force numeric when there's just that one value
but that's part of <>, not val
masak ah.
TimToady n: say +'0x55' 15:45
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«85␤»
TimToady and you don't need the val if you're forcing numeric anyway
so the RC entry is wrongish, I guess 15:47
masak aye.
val 15:48
diakopter I forget - will P6 have unsanitary macros?
masak val, lightweight as it is, is too heavyweight there.
diakopter: Pugs has them.
pugs: macro foo { 'say $a' }; my $a = 42; foo
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«42␤»
diakopter is that spec'd? 15:49
TimToady and there's no reason to limit the RC entry to integers
masak diakopter: yes.
TimToady n: say 3.14159625.base(2)
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method base in type Rat␤ at /tmp/UQAKN6XJRW line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3929 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3930 (module-CORE @ 564) ␤ at /home/p…
TimToady r: say 3.14159625.base(2)
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«11.001001000011111110101␤»
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TimToady nieczabug 15:49
masak submits
diakopter that oreilly link - "the fastest dynamic language out there"? 15:53
PerlJam diakopter: yeah, I caught that too. I would have agreed with him a few years ago, but not today.
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masak which language? Dart? :P 15:56
diakopter Gabor Szabo needs an editor for his perl6maven posts; all of them have English errors
masak well volunteered.
diakopter :D
TimToady rosettacode.org/wiki/Non-decimal_ra...ert#Perl_6 fixed, GlitchMr++ masak++ 15:58
diakopter rn: my $a =~ /a/; say $a
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Regex()<instance>␤»
..rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«␤»
diakopter std: my $a =~ /a/; say $a 15:59
p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«Can't bless non-reference value at CursorBase.pm line 1163.␤FAILED 00:00 42m␤»
diakopter I don't know which one's righter
niecza I guess, but isn't it supposed to warn on using =~ ?
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masak 'FAILED'? 16:00
16:00 brrt left
diakopter crashed I guess 16:00
TimToady std: $_ =~ /a/
p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of =~ to do pattern matching; in Perl 6 please use ~~ at /tmp/xbebQGchbK line 1:␤------> $_ =~⏏ /a/␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 41m␤»
TimToady diakopter: the my is messing you up there 16:01
geekosaur interesting parser fail in std with the my version
TimToady parsed as an initializer
16:01 crab2313 left
TimToady my $a = (~ /a/) 16:01
diakopter std: my $a = ~ /a/; say $a
p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«Can't bless non-reference value at CursorBase.pm line 1163.␤FAILED 00:00 42m␤»
TimToady but =~ on a my is non-sensical in any case, so I'm not concerned
diakopter did someone break p6eval's std? 16:02
TimToady it's a month old
and the current version certainly won't bootstrap
gimme another few hours (cross fingers) to fix that 16:03
diakopter git wishlist: make a commit of only a portion of the diff of a file
masak diakopter: git-add -i 16:04
diakopter oh! 16:06
seems TortoiseGit doesn't have that feature
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diakopter oh wait it does 16:08
TimToady maybe it has git stash save --patch
jnthn diakopter: Also "git gui" brings up a GUI tool that can do that 16:12
[Coke] masak: I had to walk away earlier, but how would you compare 4 and 4.1 then? as "Integer" vs "Number" ? 16:16
masak yeah, that won't fly. 16:17
never mind.
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TimToady I think subs with invocant parameters are benign, and : just means the same as comma there 16:41
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TimToady in some sense, exported methods are the same thing 16:42
masak let me play devil's advocate, then. 16:43
if we disallow them now but realize they're useful later, we will have an easier time than if we allow them now but realize they're harmful later.
I see how they are "the same thing" as exported methods, but what are they chances they are *not* an indication of programmer confusion? 16:44
i.e. what are the chances a programmer would be annoyed rather than helped by us flagging it?
it might as well be a typo for 'method' as a typo for ',' 16:45
TimToady what are the chances that someone is attempting to communicate that this might end up as a method somehow as well?
jnthn Should it have a slef?
*self?
masak definitely not.
well, unless the sub is inside of a method :P
jnthn :P 16:46
TimToady "sub with invocant better written as 'my method'" maybe 16:48
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masak rather likes that 16:53
or 'our method'.
TimToady nr: my method foo ($foo: $bar) { say "$foo $bar" }; foo(1,2)
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«1 2␤» 16:54
..niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Methods must be used in some kind of package at /tmp/yi8quc9FUC line 1:␤------> my method foo ⏏($foo: $bar) { say "$foo $bar" }; foo(1,␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib…
TimToady nieczanyi I guess
masak yeah.
someone else is welcome to submit it. :)
16:58 kaleem joined
jnthn r: class A { }; say A.new 16:59
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«A.new()␤»
jnthn r: class A { }; say ~A.new
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«A<853331884>␤»
TimToady ô.ó 17:00
jnthn Matches spec, afaik 17:01
I do now have the slight issue of what to do in NQP now that we have .gist and .Str doing different things in a bunch of cases.
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diakopter nr: my method foo ($foo: $bar) { say self~" $bar" }; foo(1,2) 17:07
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤Methods must be used in some kind of package at /tmp/Iksn61Nzeo line 1:␤------> my method foo ⏏($foo: $bar) { say self~" $bar" }; foo(1␤␤Potential difficulties:␤ $foo is declared but not used at /tmp/Iksn…
..rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«1 2␤»
diakopter r: my method foo ($foo:) { say self === $foo }; foo("b") 17:08
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«True␤»
diakopter r: class F { my method foo ($foo:) { say self === $foo }; }; F.foo() 17:09
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«True␤»
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dalek p/toqast: 319bb8d | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Compiler.nqp:
Implement default parameter handling, winning the optional and named argument tests back.
 17:11
p/toqast: 4b85a2e | jnthn++ | src/NQPQ/ (2 files):
Get + and ~ prefixes workingish again.
p/toqast: 67a605c | jnthn++ | src/NQPQ/ (2 files):
Compile =:= again.
17:14 kaleem left
sorear good * #perl6 17:17
17:18 alvis left
masak sorear! \o/ 17:19
sorear: I discovered some bugs in Niecza's eqv in the backlog.
also filed some other things and didn't file some other things.
[Coke] files a bug on masak's bug filer. 17:26
"seems spotty"
masak I wouldn't mind if someone took over all the nieczue filing, to be honest. 17:27
I still feel like my primary responsibility is to keep RT's perl6 queue up-to-date.
diakopter I think we can have a bot that takes this command: bugfiler: niecza 8 Title of Bug Report where 8 means number of prior irc lines to paste into the bug report 17:31
and it would only accept commands on #perl6 so people couldn't spam it in privmsg
seems the nick isn't taken 17:32
masak well, there's usually some editing to filing a bug report. 17:33
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diakopter quietfanatic: howdy 17:37
17:38 jeffreykegler left
quietfanatic hey diakopter 17:40
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dalek p/toqast: 00c649e | jnthn++ | src/NQP/Actions.pm:
Fix bug in v-table method installation.
 17:45
p/toqast: 507d55c | jnthn++ | src/NQPQ/Actions.pm:
Port previous fix to NQPQ.
p/toqast: 93a716f | jnthn++ | src/core/NQPMu.pm:
Add some missing methods to NQPMu.
p/toqast: ce81241 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
Add a QAST op for throwing control exceptions.
p/toqast: 26b5b5b | jnthn++ | src/NQPQ/Actions.pm:
Get next/last/redo working again.
17:46 benabik left, benabik_ is now known as benabik
jnthn 50 out of 60 tests in t/nqp now passing in nqp/toqast :) 17:49
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quietfanatic am I the only one who thinks arbitrary radix notation looks way too much like pair notation? 17:58
PerlJam "too much"? 17:59
quietfanatic :16<abcd> ought to make 16 => 'abcd'
Tene also
17:59 bluescreen10 left
masak quietfanatic: it *is* pair notation. 18:00
it's just been hijacked for radix conversion.
18:01 bluescreen10 joined
quietfanatic right 18:01
18:02 jeffreykegler joined
PerlJam quietfanatic: so you think it should look different? 18:02
quietfanatic I do think it should look different.
mind you, I don't have any immediate suggestions s to how it should look :) 18:03
PerlJam If there were a more procedural interface, would that assuage your concerns? 18:04
quietfanatic probably
TimToady normal colon pairs can only have identifiers on the left, so the numeric was completely unused
and there's little use case for 16 => 'abcd' 18:05
quietfanatic Arbitrary bases are not something people use enough that they need a syntactic shortcut for it.
TimToady sez who? :)
PerlJam quietfanatic: ah, so you think they are incorrectly huffmanized?
quietfanatic Especially when that syntactic shortcut means they need to do an eval-like thing to parameterize the base
sez me :) 18:06
PerlJam: It's more that different things should look different
TimToady parameterizing the base is something that is used even less, so +":$base\<$str>" is fine 18:07
there's also something to be said for not inventing additional syntax 18:10
PerlJam All I know is that bases 2, 8, 10, and 16 come up quite a bit in computer programs :)
TimToady which is why those have special cases
GlitchMr Perl 6 is already more popular than certain languages at GitHub :). 18:11
github.com/languages/AppleScript
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quietfanatic reusing already existing syntax for something entirely unrelated is just as bad in my opinion as inventing new syntax 18:11
TimToady using colon notation also gives you the () and [] variants for "free"
GlitchMr In PHP there is base_convert() function. The name is long, but you rarely want to do it anyways. 18:12
quietfanatic Something like that but with a better name would be best, I think.
PerlJam quietfanatic: we do it all the time with contextual clues to help. Notice how many ways {} can be used.
quietfanatic: :NUMBER seems like a really good contextual clue to me. 18:13
TimToady I have no trouble telling :foo apart from :16
GlitchMr I wouldn't have problem with something like base-convert function to do it
quietfanatic At a close look, you have no trouble, of course 18:14
PerlJam GlitchMr: That's kind of where I was going initially. If there were some subroutine to do base conversion (in addition to the current notation), maybe that would help
quietfanatic suppose you're skimming over code. You'll see what looks like a pair, but you'd have to examine the individul characters to see that it is in fact not a pair
TimToady you always have to look at individual characters
quietfanatic But : and < > are immediately distinctive. 18:15
GlitchMr I mean, $num.base-convert($base => 10) looks better than +":$base\<$num>"
quietfanatic whereas 16 and IG are not immediately distinguishable.
TimToady so are 2 and x
PerlJam quietfanatic: sounds like you need a better font :)
quietfanatic
.oO(The tyrrany of selective examples)
 18:16
Oh, I can tell them apart if I actually look at them
PerlJam boggles
GlitchMr If I would see +":$base\<$num>" I would think it's... hacky method of converting bases 18:17
quietfanatic My thesis here is that you shouldn't have to read every single character to get a gist of the structure of a piece of code.
And yes, { } used for both hashes and code bothers me that way too.
TimToady this seems to come down to almost the same argument as "I want to be able to read it without learning the language"
GlitchMr What's wrong with { } being used for both functions and hashes? 18:18
TimToady and I'd submit that someone who doesn't know Perl 6 would immediately figure out what :16<deadbeef> means
quietfanatic That's because deadbeef is a culturally unambiguous hexadecimal number.
GlitchMr :16<deadbeef> could be written as 0xdeadbeef
quietfanatic GlitchMr: You have to use contextual cues to figure out which is which, just like the compiler 18:19
TimToady the other thing is that if you're going to be using a weird base, you're likely to use it many times in teh same program, so the learning is amortized
GlitchMr Well, .map will definitely won't take hash as function :P.
quietfanatic TimToady: Oh that's a valid point
PerlJam quietfanatic: "contextual cues" is almost the basis of all things Perl.
[Coke] "GRAMMAR" 18:20
benabik r: say <1 2 3>.map { a => 12 }
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused␤at /tmp/KGZaxPsRn6:1␤»
GlitchMr We have binary, octal, hexadecimal, decimal... what other weird base you would want to use?
TimToady GlitchMr: I certainly would not be opposed to a named function in place of the hack
benabik Base64?
PerlJam GlitchMr: base 64 seems to come up a lot
quietfanatic The thing is, I skim code almost as much as I carefully read it. Actually, more.
and so I like easily-skimmable code quite a bit. 18:21
GlitchMr :64<1> doesn't work and shouldn't
PerlJam GlitchMr: base 36 is occasionally useful too
TimToady nr: say :64[1,1]
p6eval niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: :16[...] syntax NYI␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1414 (die @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3550 (unbase @ 8) ␤ at /tmp/3VeZbgRWB8 line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting …
..rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed radix number␤at /tmp/5s5MwphmF6:1␤»
benabik Although there is a difference between Base64 and base 64. :-/
GlitchMr I would like to see use for base 36... but I also would like to see use for octal numbers :)
TimToady octals make sense on a PDP11 :) 18:22
GlitchMr Oh, I think I have one use for octals - chmod
PerlJam GlitchMr: when talking to other weird systems, it helps if you speak their language :)
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TimToady base 4 makes some sense in biology :) 18:22
GlitchMr But, I can see base 4 being useful
TimToady said it before me :P
cosimo so... 18:23
if I had to propose a redesign of perl6.org, what concepts we want the site/design to convey?
GlitchMr I like current Perl 6 site :)
PerlJam base 6 might make lots of sense if you're dealing with molecules that have lots of carbon :)
quietfanatic_ Non-conformity. 18:24
18:24 raiph left
quietfanatic_ (cosimo:) 18:24
GlitchMr It reminds me WHATWG website for some reason, but it's nice nevertheless
TimToady friendly to seven-year-olds
fun
PerlJam cosimo: friendly, fun, capable, serious, powerful, awesome, cool, nice, happy, ...
benabik Wikipedia says base 15 is useful for telephony routing over IP 18:25
18:25 quietfanatic left
TimToady btw, the .org doesn't have to do everything; there are plenty of other tlds 18:25
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GlitchMr Could you modify grammar to add 0p if you need it? 18:25
TimToady so the .org should be fun
GlitchMr p being for pentadecimal
quietfanatic_ I bet you could 18:26
benabik postfix:<p> ?
18:26 mucker left
TimToady GlitchMr: it's possible, but we don't go out of our way to make it easy 18:26
benabik -Ofun
And there do seem to be a good number of uses for base 36.
quietfanatic_ TimToady: I thought the Perl 6 grammar was supposed to be extensible at the drop of a hat
GlitchMr postfix:<p> wouldn't work when your numbers include characters between A and E
quietfanatic_ TimToady: Or have we decided to go the Apple route? :) 18:27
GlitchMr 0t1201202201
PerlJam base 60 has lots of uses too
18:28 fhelmberger left
GlitchMr en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_computer 18:28
Tene ternary would also be useful for malbolge interop 18:29
TimToady r: say :60[12,34,56]
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed radix number␤at /tmp/WdOzyP90D3:1␤»
TimToady nyi I guess
PerlJam rakudo doesn't grok bases above 36 for some reason
18:29 quietfanatic_ is now known as quietfanatic
TimToady I thought it did 18:29
benabik 36 is the highest unambiguous base. 0-9a-z. 18:30
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TimToady see S02:3247 18:30
GlitchMr Bases above 36 aren't useful anyways until :X[] notation will be implemented 18:31
benabik r: say :10[1,2,3,4]
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed radix number␤at /tmp/vSiY9iJBSR:1␤»
TimToady b: :60[12,34,56]
p6eval b 922500: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed radix number at line 22, near "[12,34,56]"␤»
TimToady ng: :60[12,34,56] 18:32
alpha: :60[12,34,56]
TimToady forgets the names
benabik p6eval: help
p6eval benabik: Usage: <(star|pugs|nqp|std|niecza|rakudo|b|toqast|nom|npr|n|r|perl6|prn|rn|p|rnp|nrp|pnr|rpn|t|p6|nr)(?^::\s) $perl6_program>
TimToady pugs: say :60[12,34,56]
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«45296␤»
PerlJam pugs++
TimToady maybe that's what I'm remembering
benabik perlcabal's spec appears to be out of date.
GlitchMr It's always out of date ;) 18:33
benabik Well, that's what the irc logs point to, so it would be nice if it wasn't. 18:34
GlitchMr Even when you think it isn't, something is out of date.
cosimo is it possible to run stuff server side for perl6.org, or it's a completely static site? 18:36
GlitchMr It's static site
PerlJam std: say :60[12,34,56] 18:37
p6eval std f43a358: OUTPUT«ok 00:00 42m␤»
diakopter how does one regex match for graphs that could have negative codepoints? 18:39
TimToady: ^^ re NFG 18:40
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quietfanatic You can't know the codepoints of precomposed graphemes, can you? 18:41
diakopter not under the proposed implementation
[Coke] r: my $a = "This is a string"; say $a.chars 18:42
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«16␤»
diakopter (and not under any implementation I can imagine)
[Coke] wow. I counted that wrong at least 3 times. ;)
quietfanatic I'd imagine that in the regex you have to assemble the equivalent grapheme out of its individual codepoints.
18:43 haidarian left
diakopter quietfanatic: yeah, but is there a way to say "this base codepoint, with optionally whatever combining codepoints" 18:43
quietfanatic [ :ii $base ], perhaps? 18:44
diakopter (or optionally particular combining codepoints)
quietfanatic well,that's probably more difficult
If you are matching on the grapheme level it's probably difficult to selectively pull the graphemes apart into codepoints when you please. 18:45
diakopter well, I'm just imagining it will be impossible to match against NFG strings that contain negative codepoints (except for . obviously), because the codepoints don't fall into any cclass and can't be matched directly 18:46
benabik negative codepoints? 18:47
quietfanatic The negative codepoints stand for a sequence of positive codepoints though.
diakopter are you suggesting the regex engine should decompose them while matching?
quietfanatic If it has to.
Negative codepoints is just an implementation detail. An optimization. 18:48
as far as I understand it, at least.
diakopter eh; I'm fairly certain TimToady says it's an essential element of NFG
quietfanatic Well, that's how you'd get a semantically variable-width encoding into an actually fixed-width encoding. 18:49
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diakopter right, but also how to store NFG strings at runtime 18:49
quietfanatic right.
diakopter (all strings)
quietfanatic Somewhere hidden in the program is a table which maps negative indexes to strings representing one grapheme. 18:50
Like the symbol table in Lisp dialects.
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diakopter right... 18:50
jnthn I would rather expect that the negative codepoints have a bunch of unicode properties calculated for them. 18:51
18:51 PerlJam left
quietfanatic jnthn: Oh, that's possible too 18:51
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diakopter but what would determine whether they have those properties? 18:52
quietfanatic whether the positive codepoints they stand for have those properties
jnthn Giving it the properties of the base character is probably a good start.
diakopter whether *all* the codepoints in the graph have the property or just one of them?
ok
quietfanatic Or is unicode not set up to assign codepoints to composed graphemes? I don't know actually 18:53
ah
jnthn The answer may also vary with property. I suspect there must be a sane way to do this.
quietfanatic Excuse me
to assign *properties* to composed grapheme
s
jnthn guessed that's what was meant
quietfanatic made a wordo
diakopter I don't think that's a word 18:54
quietfanatic It's like a typo
diakopter it was a joke..
masak I don't think that's a joke :P 18:55
diakopter :D
TimToady all NFG codepoints (both negative and precomposed NFC) should have easily accessible NFD for any kind of partial grapheme matching or property 18:57
so looking up property of the base char should generally not be difficult 18:58
diakopter ok, that answers the question of whether regex matches should match against just the base character
jnthn Well, in the context of properties anyway, I guess. 18:59
diakopter including cclass?
jnthn yes
Those boil down to unicode props
diakopter ok
TimToady we will need to invent ways of doing partial matches that involve marks 19:01
but I think that will become more obvious once we get NFG in place
diakopter ah, that was the other question, which I had forgotten I asked
19:02 GlitchMr left 19:03 jeffreykegler left
dalek p/toqast: 476a500 | jnthn++ | src/guts/multi_dispatch.c:
Don't look into freed memory.
 19:04
p/toqast: 9341160 | jnthn++ | src/NQPQ/ (3 files):
Partially fix multi-method dispatch.
p/toqast: 4e3159b | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
Fix code-gen bug.
TimToady or course, one can always call out to a method in a grammar, but it's not clear how that helps normal regexes, unless we do it with <:&mymatch(...)> or some such 19:05
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japhb r: say +':60[12,34,56]' 19:25
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«45296␤»
dalek p/toqast: 9ccb91c | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
Fix lexotic compilation bug.
p/toqast: 4780b8e | jnthn++ | src/NQPQ/ (2 files):
Fix return; this also brings it inline with the mechanism we use to do it in Rakudo.
japhb TimToady, Str.Numeric handles :60[,,] format. The main compiler does not.
masak feels like that should be a single code path :) 19:26
japhb masak, Str.Numeric would ideally be implemented by just using that piece of the full grammar. Unfortunately:
A) When I started working on Str.Numeric, I don't think that was actually workable. Dunno if it is now. 19:27
B) The general grammar is (was?) way slower than the hand-coded Str.Numeric parser.
Hence, not one code path yet. :-)
Str.Numeric can handle some pretty strange stuff these days. Unfortunately, not Complex numbers yet. I should probably just do that when I continue work on val(). 19:29
masak ++japhb 19:32
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[Coke] wonders if nieczue rhymes with "miscue" 19:47
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sirrobert proving tests on JSON::Tiny seems to randomly skip/fail tests... 20:06
just ran "prove -re perl6 t/01-parse.t" three times in a row 20:07
twice they all passed, the third time "No subtests run" 20:08
sometimes a portion pass and a portion fail
is that a known phenomenon others have encountered?
20:10 fhelmberger joined
masak sirrobert: no, never heard anything like that before. 20:11
sirrobert hm
masak [Coke]: no, it rhymes with "betcha" :)
sorear sirrobert: is it still random if you disable address space layout randomization? 20:12
20:12 daxim left
sirrobert tell me how to do that and I'll check =) 20:12
masak [Coke]: or, hm, maybe not... :)
sorear sirrobert: are you on linux? 20:13
sirrobert yep
sorear echo 0 | sudo tee /proc/sys/kernel/randomize_va_space 20:14
20:16 SamuraiJack_ left
sirrobert sorear: running prove several times now, will tell you in a sec 20:16
six consecutive runs of prove with no issue. 20:17
(previously I got at most 2 in a row)
you want me to report that somewhere? 20:18
20:18 fhelmberger left
sirrobert woops, it happened again on the 11th run 20:18
but that's a lot MORE rare, at least =) 20:19
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sirrobert my vm is being silly-- rebooting it 20:24
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benabik karma silly 20:26
aloha silly has karma of 0.
masak karma everybody 20:30
aloha everybody has karma of 1.
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sirrobert back 20:58
Tene karma karma 21:00
aloha karma has karma of 2.
sirrobert What does the syntax "Any:U", "Any:D", "Hash:D" etc. mean? 21:01
masak sirrobert: definedness of an object. 21:02
r: sub foo(Int:U) { say "type object" }; sub foo(Int:D) { say "instance"
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 2, near ""␤»
masak r: sub foo(Int:U) { say "type object" }; sub foo(Int:D) { say "instance" }; foo Int; foo 42
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of routine foo␤at /tmp/0CD1zHN2vD:1␤»
sirrobert so if a param is (Hash:D $d) it means "a defined hash"
instead of say, Hash itself
?
masak r: multi foo(Int:U) { say "type object" }; multi foo(Int:D) { say "instance" }; foo Int; foo 42
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«type object␤instance␤»
masak sirrobert: right.
sirrobert oh, or instead of a "my Hash %foo;" 21:03
ok, thanks
masak sirrobert: 'my Hash %foo' is a hash of hash objects.
sirrobert ohhh right
masak sirrobert: both the type annotation and the sigil add something there.
sirrobert righto
are there others besides :U and :D?
masak I believe so. 21:04
masak checks
yes.
:_ and :T
sirrobert where did you look? =)
masak S12. 21:05
sirrobert ok
masak "Abstract vs Concrete types"
sirrobert ah
21:05 Chillance left
masak :_ allows anything, it seems. 21:05
:T allows only type objects, not just any undefined thing.
:U allows undefined things.
21:05 Chillance joined
sirrobert ok, makes sense 21:06
mostly ;)
21:07 skids left, birdwindupbird left
masak r: sub foo(Int:U) { say "undefined" }; sub foo(Int:D) { say "defined" }; foo 42; foo 42 but role { method defined { False } } 21:08
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of routine foo␤at /tmp/AT1bT0Rj52:1␤»
masak argh.
r: multi foo(Int:U) { say "undefined" }; multi foo(Int:D) { say "defined" }; foo 42; foo 42 but role { method defined { False } }
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«defined␤defined␤»
masak apparently that wasn't undefined enough :) 21:09
sirrobert heh
quietfanatic Rakudo might be cheating.
Tene r: multi foo(Int:U) { say "undefined" }; multi foo(Int:D) { say "defined" }; foo 42; foo Int
sirrobert the "but role" applied a "mixin" that returned False for the method "defined" ?
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«defined␤undefined␤»
Tene sirrobert: yes
sirrobert cool
masak yes :) 21:10
jnthn :U is currently taken to mean "type object"
masak huh.
jnthn Just after I implemented that lot, the spec got changed. :/
masak submits rakudobug 21:11
sirrobert is there a way to apply a mixin temporarily? (or to remove it after applying it?)
jnthn I'm hoping if I ignore the spec change enough it may change back :P
masak sirrobert: just keep the original object around ;)
jnthn If you use "but" and keep the original one around... :)
sirrobert does applying a mixin copy the object?
jnthn sirrobert: Yes if you use "but". No if you use "does" 21:12
quietfanatic 'does' is a
^ that
sirrobert meowf! that's great
I'd been trying to figure that out for a while (off and on)
everyone++ =)
and now it's grammatically obvious. heh 21:14
man that makes a couple of things a lot easier =) 21:19
ok, gotta go-- thanks all =) 21:22
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masak karma go 21:22
aloha go has karma of 0.
jnthn using hyphens-- a curious way to play with the karma bot. 21:24
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masak I took it to mean he was dissatisfied with having to go. 21:27
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[Coke] if :_ allows anything, why do we need to specify it? 21:42
sorear because it overrides a 'use parameters :D' pragma in scope 21:45
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[Coke] hokay 21:50
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japhb rn: '<1/2>'.Numeric.perl.say; 22:19
p6eval rakudo 038a3c: OUTPUT«Failure.new(exception => X::Str::Numeric.new(source => "<1/2>", pos => 0, reason => "base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.'"))␤»
..niecza v19-15-g051783d: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot parse number: <1/2>␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1414 (die @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3492 (ANON @ 11) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3494 (NumSyntax.str2num @ 5) ␤ a…
japhb TimToady, was it your intent that the above DWIM? Or for .Numeric, does the user need to leave off the < >?
er, Str.Numeric, I mean. 22:20
masak 'night, #perl6 22:25
japhb o/ 22:26
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Chat3630 Hey:) 23:18
sorear Hello Chat3630.
Are you here for Perl 6?
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sjn tadzik: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4363887 23:23
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sjohnson sorear: :) 23:33
if not, he may get perl6 fever
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