»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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[Coke] huh. couldn't reattach to my screen. had to start a new one. 00:38
(on feather)
sorear [Coke]: I think feather was rebooted recently, I had to restart dalek 00:52
diakopter I had to touch /etc/apache2/httpd.conf 00:53
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MikeFair What's the distinction between $/ and $_? 01:39
in Actions.pm
oh wait nm
I think I see it now
$_ is being used inside a loop 01:40
$/ is still referencing "the thing that got passed in"
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moritz good morning 05:36
TimToady o/
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sorear o/ 05:52
diakopter o/ 05:53
tadzik o/ 05:56
__sri o/
diakopter heads up seven up
diakopter wonders if the europans know what that is 05:57
...doubtful 05:58
FROGGS I know 7up as a softdrink
tadzik I thought it's something that Snow White says to the dwarves in the morning 05:59
diakopter it's a classroom game for ages 6-9 ish
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diakopter oh look, a wikipedia article on it 06:00
kids put their heads down so they can't see and raise their arms
with thumb out 06:01
the o/ o/ o/ o/ reminded me of it
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Up_(game)
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masak good 莫宁, #perl6 07:01
:)
tadzik hello masak 07:02
Timbus nín hăo 07:05
(i only know pinyin :( ) 07:06
masak not bad.
the pinyin for 莫宁 is "mò níng", by the way. 07:07
Timbus hah
masak seems to be a sound loan meaning "mourning" :)
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Timbus i figured it would be more useful to speak the language, then later on, spell it. still working on the first half 07:08
sorear misreads 莫宁 as 07:10
sorear misreads 莫宁 as 漢字
scott__ 莫宁 as morning 07:11
sorear masak: mourning or morning? 07:12
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masak sorear: "mourning", according to Google Translate. 07:13
sorear: or "Mornington".
sorear
.oO( who are we mourning? )
 07:14
Su-Shee the morning. 07:15
brrt o/ p6 07:16
scott__ good 莫宁, good morming
moritz \o 07:17
masak o/
sorear scott__: hi! I think you are new here? 07:18
scott__ 早上好！ 07:19
sorear： yes i am new 07:21
masak welcome, scott__ who is new!
scott__ me 07:22
masak rn: say "the machines greet you too"
p6eval rakudo f48867, niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«the machines greet you too␤»
moritz nr: say "welcome, ", "scot_".comb[0, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4].join
p6eval rakudo f48867, niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«welcome, scott__␤»
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scott__ i came here half year. but not talks. 07:23
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masak scott__: we call people who hang around but say nothing "lurkers". so you just de-lurked :) 07:24
sorear hmm. '早上好' we have a regular whose name starts with a 早.
masak we do? 07:25
scott__ sorear: yes i am a lurker. 07:26
masak not any more.
sorear ah, I was thinking of 卓明亮 07:28
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sorear not the same character 07:28
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scott__ ’早上好‘ not is a name. this is 'good morning' 07:29
masak sorear: that makes a lot more sense. I don't think 早 is a common family name. 07:30
sorear masak: JimmyZ
FROGGS o/ 07:31
sorear and I found the correct spelling ^
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sorear someday I'll find tuits to finish learning, maybe... 07:31
there's just so much to learn in the world
I'll never finish!
masak sure you will :) 07:32
shachaf Come on, what's wrong with Finnish?
sorear heads back to "How to Prove All NP Statements in Zero Knowledge" 07:33
masak sorear: yes, I know that's JimmyZ's name. I sometimes greet him with it on the channel.
shachaf ought to learn Finnish.
scott__ masak: your chinese is very good. 07:34
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scott__ masak: chinese is your first language？ 07:35
masak scott__: heh. 07:36
sorear masak's first language is Swedish.
he does speak impeccable English though
in real time, too
masak scott__: first, thank you. second, no, my Chinese isn't very good. :)
scott__: 我学习普通话了近两年。 07:37
did I get that right?
masak , as usual, feels very uncertain bout the plcement of the 了 07:38
scott__ masak: 'good 莫宁' chinese people will spelling this wrong word.
sorear I recognize about 6 characters from that
masak scott__: yeah. it was meant as an inter-language pun.
scott__ but, wo know it 07:39
masak sorear: Wǒ xuéxí Pǔtōnghuà le jìn liǎng nián. "I study Mandarin [LE] nearly two year." you should be able to map that to the hanzi. 07:40
leont It's all Chinese to me! 07:42
scott__ masak: you study chinese in china? i study english in school manay years,
bu my english is bad.
sorear masak: I notice a conspicuous lack of 二. 07:43
hoelzro that's liang!
moritz scott__: it's all just a matter of practice
leont School was not a good place to learn languages for me, immersion worked better
masak scott__: no, I 在乌普萨拉 studied
scott__: 瑞典 07:44
scott__ moritz: yes, i not speak english.
masak still remembers perlhack with fondness
scott__ i only read same e book. 07:45
sorear I studied Japanese in school for 1.5 years, I'm doing my best to pretend I know Chinese
renormalist spacebat: re cperl-mode: github.com/jrockway/cperl-mode contains several branches. The "perl6-pugs" and "mxd-perl6-merge" contains my work and the merge of my work with Jonathan Rockway's MooseX::Declare features.
masak sorear: as long as you don't call the hanzi "kanji", you should be fine :P
scott__ sorear: some chinese and japanese is like. 07:46
renormalist spacebat: the issue is that my perl6 changes are based on the original cperl-mode from Ilja Zakharevich who targeted XEmacs.
spacebat: whereas jrockway used the version contained in GNU Emacs as base. 07:47
sorear masak: I just call them 漢字, that way everyone is happy. except maybe the DPRK folks who abolished them from curricula and would prefer I use hangul
renormalist spacebat: I think the upstream version based on GNU Emacs works better with GNU Emacs, but I never got around to it to finally rebase that all to GNU Emacs. 07:48
hoelzro masak: you prefer simplified? =(
Su-Shee hmmmm.. perl 6 and contiuations? how about that?
conti-nu-ations. 07:49
masak hoelzro: not so much "prefer" as "use most of the time".
moritz Su-Shee: gather/tkae and lazy lists+map are continuations, sort of
Su-Shee: though not serializable continuations
hoelzro simplified makes me sad
sorear Su-Shee: gather/take exposes the full power of *one-shot* continuations
masak hoelzro: I can see how it may make some people sad. I try to keep all options open by learning the historical hanzi, too. 07:50
Su-Shee moritz: I'm seeing more web frameworks implemented in "CPS" style recently, so I'm starting to wonder...
renormalist spacebat: it somehow works "ok" but it also has some known issues, eg. single character variable with twigils $.y seems to start a regex (same as tr///).
hoelzro masak: if you don't mind my asking, how do you keep your Mandarin "fresh"? 07:51
renormalist spacebat: summary: please try cperl-mode and if nothing else report the issues. but ideally you find someone (eg., yourself) who can contribute.
hoelzro I studied it for two years at Uni, but I've forgotten so much of it =(
masak hoelzro: basically, I don't. :/
hoelzro: I've also forgotten loads.
going to China in October, though. my plan is to pick up my old study books and refresh things a bit. 07:52
Su-Shee I was so proud when I understood an ironic "is that so?" in "house of the flying daggers".. ;)
hoelzro whoa, cool!
scott__ masak: you first study say chinese,but i first study read englsih. 07:53
masak scott__: I studied both reading/speaking at the same time.
Su-Shee: Chinese *and* irony? really?? :P 07:54
sorear house of the flying daggers... sounds like a parliament building.
scott__ masak:you have some chinese friends, talk to you?
Su-Shee masak: well it's shi ma basically and it was pretty clear by the look on her face.. so.. :) 07:55
masak scott__: 是的 07:56
Su-Shee sorear: it's a movie by the same director as "hero"
scott__ if everyone like study chinese. contact me use google talk. 08:04
my first language is chinese.
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masak scott__++ 08:05
scott__ [email@hidden.address] 08:06
sorear scott__++
moritz always easy to remember, those addresses :-)
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sorear it's in the logs :-) 08:09
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kresike good morning all you happy perl6 people 08:53
masak good morning, kresike! \o/ 08:55
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sorear o/ 09:03
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mscha perl6: "hello, world!".tc.say; 10:58
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«No such method 'tc' for invocant of type 'Str'␤ in block at /tmp/arm980YOeM:1␤␤»
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Hello, world!␤»
mscha Is there, or will there be, a method that transforms "hello, world!" into "Hello, World!"? (I.e. title case each word?) 10:59
moritz yes 11:00
perl6: "hello, world!".capitalize 11:01
p6eval rakudo f48867, niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: ( no output )
moritz perl6: say "hello, world!".capitalize
p6eval rakudo f48867, niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Hello, World!␤»
moritz I don't know if the name is still correct under the new spec
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mscha Thanks, that was just a little bit too obvious to think of. ;) 11:06
moritz doc.perl6.org/type/Str#wordcase # that's the new name 11:08
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mscha That's even more logical. :) 11:14
masak wordcase! \o/ 11:22
I had missed that change. but I like the name. 11:23
moritz I think for now it would make sense to install wordcase as an alias for capitalize
and then slowly adjust the functionality
masak +1 11:24
sergot hi o/ 11:28
tadzik \o
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masak sergocie! \o/ 11:29
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awwaiid Su-Shee, "I'm seeing more web frameworks..." what new ones do you mean that are using CPS style? Are any of them actually using continuations instead of explicit callback passing? 12:16
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masak awwaiid: as far as I know, www.seaside.st/ and www.seaside.st/ both use CPS as a core ingredient. 12:22
er, second link liftweb.net/
awwaiid they aren't using CPS, they're using actual continuations, if that makes sense 12:23
but what I was actually fishing for was whether Su-Shee has seen _new_ web frameworks that use continuations or CPS
I wrote Continuity (see cpan), so I try to track these things at least a bit :)
masak ah. I don't know any that fulfill those criteria. 12:24
awwaiid well I wouldn't be surprised if there were some nodejs frameworks that used CPS, since nodejs is a big ball of CPS
and I keep watching for someone to build actual continuations into nodejs. I guess I have heard of people doing languages-on-js that have continuations, actually. But don't know if they then built a web framework 12:25
I feel like continuation-based web frameworks are dying out in favor of just having client-side control flow 12:26
s/dying out/have died out/
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brrt where continuation based web frameworks ever a thing? 12:27
awwaiid well... when seaside was hot, but maybe I just surrounded myself by people who thought seaside was hot :)
also one of the touted features of Arc (of Paul Graham, I think news.ycombinator.com is implemented in it) was it's server-side continuations good for makign webapps 12:28
so... around when that was popular 12:29
brrt that is when we are talking about a /very/ small collection of hackers
an tbh
i never really got the point
web apps are supposed to be about request -> response
awwaiid there is server side state though, in most web apps. continuations let you think of it as request -> response -> request -> response with lexical state carried in between each step :) 12:31
more like writing a client application, like a command line apps
but command line apps don't have back buttons and don't typically let you open new tabs in the middle of an operation... so yeah, doesn't map quite right
really fun in any case though and I highly recommend you give it a try if you haven't :) 12:32
brrt i haven't :-) i just think that server-side state is a very dangerous tool too play with 12:33
awwaiid many powerful tools are also dangerous 12:34
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awwaiid I have slowly devolved my server-side continuations style to not have a deep history. For the most part, I don't use it for more than keeping just one layer of lexical state. So I generate an HTML link (that expires after a while), and when that link is followed I execute something in the lexical scope. 12:38
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awwaiid something like sub getDeleteLink { my ($self) = @_; return $self->addLink( 'Delete' => sub { $self->deleteClicked } ) }. All I'm really skipping is somehow serializing the state (the object/row ID typically) and then re-ifying it when processing an action. 12:39
but when you completely skip that serialize/reify in all situations, no matter how complex, you get a taste of the benefit 12:40
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awwaiid the whole design approach ends up different. Anyway... not that I actually recommend it. But as I said, I do find it pretty fun :) 12:41
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masak I'm still enthused about the "workflow" thinking that CPS affords. but CPS feels like too big a hammer for providing that. 12:44
[Coke] yawns.
awwaiid masak, CPS, or actual continuations? :) 12:45
Su-Shee awwaiid: "meteor" (very new javascript) seems to go down the seaside-style route.
masak awwaiid: either, I guess.
Su-Shee awwaiid: meteor.com/
awwaiid Thanks, Su-Shee
masak awwaiid: for example, regex engines are perfectly capable of aborting and resuming execution mid-routine. I've implemented that without continuations or CPS. 12:46
jnthn Rakudo's parser entine manages that fine with plain old closures. :)
*engine
masak yeah. that seems more proportionate. 12:47
awwaiid masak, ah yes. They keep their state and know where to pick up where they left off. Just like all these server-side bits of web-apps
though maybe not like that since the regex engine is still in memory, so doesn't have to serialize it's state or antyhing 12:48
masak I think it'd be interesting to use a language that could "fold" evenly-indented workflows into callback-based programs.
jnthn See the async/await stuff in C# 5
awwaiid masak, I think that's called an automatic CPS-transform
masak awwaiid: sure, it's in-memory, but it still needs to represent its current state somehow, even if it doesn't serialize it. 12:49
awwaiid: ooh; will check it out.
Su-Shee actually, for me it's about the concept/idea of this kind of web frameworks, not really whether it's done with continuations, closures or harry potter... 12:50
moritz
.oO( web development with harry potter! It's magic! )
jnthn I once tried a web framework that did it with harry potter, but it was too magical for me.
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awwaiid masak, there are a bunch of transformers for LISP that do that, but a more recent example are the js ones that do it that I mentioned above. Here is one that I just googled up but hadn't heard of, github.com/cperkins/js-cps 12:50
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masak groovy. 12:51
yes, that's exactly what I meant.
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masak will look deeper into this. awwaiid++ 12:51
jnthn masak: If you come along to Friday's event, I'll be doing a talk on the C# 5 CPS transform stuff they've added to the language. 12:52
Su-Shee the point is mostly the idea that every "item on a page" is a tiny objectlike thingie which connects to the server "itself" on one hand and a kind of implementation that makes templating and all this ajax stuff nicely wrapped into the language used.
masak jnthn: ok.
jnthn I've been looking at it and wondering how to do similar in Perl 6 :)
__sri meteor has absolutely no marketshare but $11M funding :) 12:53
moritz well, as a developer, I'd take $11M funding any day :-)
__sri their only plan is to keep developing the framework
awwaiid __sri, sounds like the business to get into!
__sri they literally, have no plan for making money 12:54
jnthn
.oO( maybe spend some of the $1M on marketting... )
Su-Shee well I only took notice because it sounded very much like seaside's concept and seaside is _amazingly_ productive to use.
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awwaiid Yeah Su-Shee, a js version of Seaside could certainly be killer, if only in terms of hipster-attractant 12:56
__sri server state is so out though
now it's all syncing js between client and server with a direct connection from the browser to the database
Su-Shee awwaiid: well from what I've played around with so far, meteor seriously comes close...
awwaiid __sri I think that the database still counts as server state 12:57
__sri true
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__sri but in the end i don't think those single page apps will ever win 12:59
personally, i like the latest trend back to more conservative architectures like pjax
single page apps may go a different route though, if operating systems start allowing them to leave the browser 13:02
they could kill a few native apps 13:03
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masak oh right, pjax. 13:04
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brrt no, don't do pjax 13:04
__sri yes, do pjax :) 13:05
brrt the problem with pjax is basically the callback problem
flussence seems like I'm in the minority these days - I'm one of those weirdos that still thinks JS should be to add features on top of a working site instead of a hard requirement :)
brrt flussence: i'm like that too
no, seriously, pjax has Issues
__sri flussence: that's what pjax is all about!
brrt aside from the fact that it is Ugly in your server-side architecture
__sri the railscast is pretty good railscasts.com/episodes/294-playing-with-pjax 13:06
masak flussence: that seems to be what the unobtrusive JS trend is all about.
__sri brrt: doesn't have to be, in mojolicious it can be quite pretty
brrt __sri: there are a number of basic issues with pjax 13:07
__sri the difference between rendering a pjax response and a normal response is usually just a layout, which can be handled automatically 13:08
brrt that is one thing
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brrt the other thing is, you load a piece of html into the page 13:08
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brrt and it contains <script> tags 13:08
when are they executed
and what happens when they are
and...
what happens when they fail? 13:09
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flussence that's all specced somewhere, lemme find it 13:09
moritz code never fails!!!111!!
brrt moritz :-D
what happens when you timeout
masak hugs moritz
brrt what happens if the <script> in the html fragment causes a network requests and it times out 13:10
the fact that it is specified does not mean it will be used correctly 13:11
moritz brrt: all machines and all networks ar efast enough that they never timeout!!!
Su-Shee flussence: rich web apps aren't possible without javascript. I'm working for something which has an equivalent complexity of word or excel with a full blown gui - that's what I want and need to code _fast_ and _easily_. I'm not talking about a handful of interactions and some minor div overlay here and there..
moritz and yet gmail works fine without JS 13:12
flussence yeah, I get that those need JS. I see far too many sites using it for trivial things though. I've even seen a few that just dump markdown in the page then expect the client to render it...
brrt tbh, that is not even such a bad strategy 13:13
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brrt going on the principle that all those clients have much more computing time than my few servers 13:14
Su-Shee flussence: OH GEE HOW COULD THEY ;) browsers are _amazing_ rendering engines these days, let's not use their capabilities! :)
masak one of the things I really liked about Jifty (back in the day) was that it seemed to fall back to a JS-less mode of everything, and without any code duplication.
Juerd flussence: What's the problem with requiring JS for trivial things? 13:15
It's present in EVERY practical browser. 13:16
It's no longer a matter of being compatible with software. Now it's about being compatible with people who for some reason don't trust the websites they visit.
masak there are lots of good reasons not to trust random JS on the web. 13:17
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FROGGS Su-Shee: on my company-internal site I construct whole pages using JS just because the stuff I have to transmit is much much less this way 13:17
that crap is working since IE6, so it works everywhere
masak & 13:18
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tadzik . o O ( marquee loop ) 13:19
moritz Juerd: there are non-browser user agents as well
Juerd: and I disable JS by default, simply because too many sites use JS for intrusive nonesense
flussence That markdown thing is a good example - what's gained by making every client download a JS parser/HTML-iser and run it on every single page load instead of just doing it once and having the raw HTML on the server? It's not like disk space for caching formatted documents is costly...
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Su-Shee flussence: and why send more than the actual data at all if you already send the client all rendering and behavioral gui directions it needs? 13:20
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flussence
.oO( and HTML, unlike manpages, doesn't suffer from the problem that rendered pages only work on one window width... )
 13:21
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bonsaikitten flussence: and you get insane scalability server-side for free 13:21
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bonsaikitten flussence: newest performance hack btw, send a short html website and then use JS/Ajax to inject the rest of the content 13:21
FROGGS hast kernel panic 13:22
hates
bonsaikitten on low-latency links that sometimes works out
FROGGS: haven't seen one in quite some time, what did you do?
Su-Shee bonsaikitten: so do I, because I'm not bothering to wrangle stuff through some templating parser engine first but send just data after some initial lines of code i've sent along...
FROGGS brand new dell laptop (with ssd hdd) and ubuntu
I dont know whats wrong since there is nothing in the logs
system just freezes 13:23
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flussence meh, I'm not going to convince anyone 13:23
bonsaikitten FROGGS: any kinky drivers like nvidia? 13:24
FROGGS no, its intel gfx card
bonsaikitten flussence: I've been convinced a long time ago already
Juerd moritz: Non-browser user agents are not intended use, on most websites. Sites that intend to be usable for robots, provide some sort of API.
bonsaikitten FROGGS: ah, those can be fun ...
FROGGS it got better since the last 5 kernel updates though
flussence intel gpu drivers are pretty crash-proof nowadays
brrt flussence: i kind of wish back for the days of 'progressive enhancement' too 13:26
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awwaiid I've decided we're back in the days of client-server instead of thin-client :) 13:32
round and round it goes
hey this pjax thing is kinda similar to my server-side-dom-diff idea. Thought was to keep the dom on the server and client and then only send over what changed (or whole page if they can't handle diffs) 13:35
I should patent my ideas and then go around charging people licensing fees 13:36
(kidding)
FROGGS I'm doing something similar for a mobile "app"
haha 13:37
moritz FROGGS: now you can sue awwaiid :-) 13:38
awwaiid I have documentation that I failed at a proof of concept in 2008!
prior art
FROGGS awwaiid gets a beer when he is in berlin 13:41
awwaiid woo!
FROGGS its not much, but tasty ;o)
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awwaiid Here is at least one reference, second paragraph from the bottom - thelackthereof.org/Hybrid_Approach_to_Templating (since I was four-years younger then than now, I can't say that I agree with old-awwaiid, mind you) 13:42
unfortunately I was dumb and suggested that someone else had already throught of it. I would not make a good patent troll.
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flussence ooh, postgres 9.2 added a range type 13:55
cosimo awwaiid: opera mini has being doing that since 2006 :)
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tadzik :> 13:59
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moritz now you know who you can sue :-) 13:59
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daxim flussence, I've been waiting for that 14:03
now when pg 9.2 arrives at $ork is another question
moritz postgresql++ 14:04
flussence I know I complain about my $dayjob being stuck on ancient code, but I might have a chance to get our production stuff off of pg 8.1 permanently by next week :) 14:07
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awwaiid cosimo, ah yes! good point 14:11
brrt flussence: nice
flussence oh wow, someone pointed me to a thing in 9.3 that sounds awfully similar to an X metaop: www.postgresql.org/docs/devel/stati...URNING-SET
awwaiid pft. We're on perl 5.8.3 here 14:12
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__sri wants to see jobs like this for perl6 :) groups.google.com/group/scala-inter...39a4fe745e 14:27
moritz wants to see that too 14:31
jnthn ooh :) 14:38
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dalek ast: 04d2c1d | moritz++ | S11-modules/import.t:
base tests for importing/exporting constants
 14:43
FROGGS moritz++ 14:46
moritz: so I can export enums too? 14:48
jnthn thought that already worked
FROGGS ohh, okay
moritz you can export enums, but it won't export their elems 14:49
jnthn ah...
Well, it will in terms of the long names of course
moritz r: module A { enum A is export <b c d > }; import A; say A::b
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot import symbol A from A, because it already exists in this lexical scope A␤at /tmp/c86V44qsrb:1␤»
jnthn But yeah, the short ones not.
haha!
moritz r: module Foo { enum A is export <b c d > }; import A; say Foo::b
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Could not find module A to import symbols from at line 2, near "; say Foo:"␤»
moritz r: module Foo { enum A is export <b c d > }; import Foo; say A::b
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«b␤»
moritz r: module Foo { enum A is export <b c d > }; import Foo; say b 14:50
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&b' called (line 1)␤»
FROGGS k
got it
jnthn wonders how to fix that one
moritz jnthn: who would I multi-dispatch to an enum?
ie write a candidate that only triggers for an enum?
jnthn I think they always do a certain role
moritz r: enum A <b c >; say A.^roles
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«No such method 'roles' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Metamodel::EnumHOW'␤ in block at /tmp/7NrtvQCy0P:1␤␤»
jnthn r: enum Foo < a b >; say Foo.^roles
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«No such method 'roles' for invocant of type 'Perl6::Metamodel::EnumHOW'␤ in block at /tmp/Be_VN76xEg:1␤␤»
jnthn r: enum Foo < a b >; say Foo ~~ Enumeration 14:51
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«False␤»
jnthn r: enum Foo < a b >; say Foo ~~ NumericEnumeration
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«False␤»
jnthn curious
I wonder if the meta-object somehow treats those doings as an implementation detail or something
14:53 sctt left
dalek rlito: ab55266 | (Flavio S. Glock)++ | / (4 files):
Perlito5 - update Makefile (suggested by shlomif++)
 14:53
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jnthn hotel & 15:02
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FROGGS home & 15:17
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FROGGS hi there 15:41
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kresike bye folks 15:50
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tadzik home & :) 15:56
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sjn o/ 16:00
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sjn is there a decent vim syntax highlighter for perl6? 16:00
tadzik it's linked somewhere on perl6.org 16:01
flussence nope, only the one we have :)
tadzik that too :)
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[Coke] flussence++ 16:02
Probably needs some love with all the spec changes since it was written. 16:03
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tadzik it needs to be less terribly slow, I'd say 16:03
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flussence I don't envy the job of whoever ends up fixing it though, vimscript reminds me of intercal 16:07
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Su-Shee note to self: avoid intercal. 16:09
sjn hm :-\ 16:10
tadzik :D
flussence r: say 70970/8382 16:11
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«8.466953␤»
flussence wait, no...
r: say 8382/70970
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«0.118106␤»
flussence perl6.vim is 11.8% backslashes.
sjn heheh
tadzik w00t :P 16:14
sjn wonders if this vim file could be generated somehow
e.g. by introspecting perl6 16:15
flussence I had that idea once, but then I realised it'd involve writing a vimscript code generator and ran far away 16:16
sorear good * #perl6 16:17
FROGGS hi sorear
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TimToady GlitchMr: there is nothing like nextafter at the moment. Is there a use case for it? Can it be implemented portably? Answers welcome... 16:57
oh, I see people talked about error bars 16:58
dalek d: 942bb1c | larry++ | STD_P5.pm6:
allow TCLish -foo => bar form
 17:02
GlitchMr Portably? Doesn't everything today support floating point numbers? 17:04
If it can run JavaScript it should be fine
TimToady does the JVM support it? 17:05
I suppose anything that can look at the bits of an IEEE floater can in theory support it... 17:06
anyhoo, feel free to implement one in Perl 6 :) 17:07
GlitchMr JVM probably should support it...
But... I think that JavaScript does... oh wait... it does
TimToady the long float forms would be problematic on systems that lack that type 17:08
er, long double
jnthn The JVM don't support unsigned types natively, iirc. 17:12
Don't recall it doing long double.
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diakopter correct & correct 17:14
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dalek d: cfe8d43 | larry++ | STD.pm6:
don't translate ${0} to ${-1}, GlitchMr++
 17:24
GlitchMr :) 17:30
"allow TCLish -foo => bar form" 17:42
Also, isn't this the style which CGI.pm used?
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geekosaur yes, but I think it lifted the style from perl/tk originally 17:46
which used it for its tcl-ishness
GlitchMr Nice 17:47
I through that a => "b" is simply obsolete because it doesn't work
(but well, I would expect better error message) 17:48
Even if it would somehow work, it would be -"a" => "b". And - in Perl 6 doesn't work like - in Perl 5.
moritz well, it would be '-a' => 'b'
GlitchMr glitchmr@strawberry ~> perl -MO=Deparse -e'print -e => 2' 17:49
print -'e', 2;
-e syntax OK
moritz (in Perl 6, that is) 17:51
TimToady eval print +(-e => 2)[0]
buubot_backup TimToady: -e1
GlitchMr I know that => is just fat comma 17:52
(in Perl 5)
TimToady nr: say (-e => 2)[0] 17:53
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot use value like Pair as a number␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 293 (Any.Numeric @ 6) ␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /tmp/vRyqhi1nkw line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ …
..rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Numeric'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: Mu *%_)␤␤ in method Numeric at src/gen/CORE.setting:713␤ in sub prefix:<-> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2371␤ in block at /tmp/qeFmHoVzBo:1␤␤»
GlitchMr Why - has higher precedence than => anyways? 17:54
oh wait, it doesn't
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TimToady foo => bar is parsed as a term when foo is a bareword 17:54
GlitchMr Well, I would expect that it would be negative e constant
TimToady but then it would have worked 17:55
nr: say ((-e) => 2).key
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«-2.71828182878434␤»
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«-2.7182818284590451␤»
TimToady nr: say (e => 2).key 17:56
p6eval rakudo f48867, niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«e␤»
TimToady nr: say (~e => 2).key
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«No such method 'key' for invocant of type 'Str'␤ in block at /tmp/MQ3g1LBGqh:1␤␤»
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method key in type Str␤ at /tmp/CmQKzxsAie line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4138 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4139 (module-CORE @ 571) ␤ at /home/p6e…
GlitchMr Let me guess, magic in work
TimToady bareword=> is parsed as a term, as I said
so tighter than unary 17:57
GlitchMr So, bareword on left is tighter than anything else
TimToady that's what "is a term" means :)
well, that's what it means to me... 17:58
let us by all means be properly postmodern
GlitchMr Hmmm... if Perl 5 is postmodern, Perl 6 is postpostmodern? 17:59
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geekosaur prefuturistic? 18:00
TimToady maybe it's postcontemporary
but I think it's probably just postmoderner, in spots 18:01
Su-Shee <gibson>unevenly distributed futuristic</gibson>
TimToady the postmodern is unevenly distributed in Perl 5 :) 18:02
GlitchMr I wonder how Perl would look if I would use BEGIN {} for every single statement 18:03
sisar a possible(?) usecase for nextafter: When plotting a graph for a function f(x), where x goes from [a,b]. One needs to traverse all possible values of x from a to b.
ok, float64 is not a requirement for that, but... does anyone get what i'm trying to say ? 18:05
moritz doesn't
but I haven't backlogged yet
TimToady maybe we should just define ϵ so you can say 1, *+ϵ, ... 2
GlitchMr .u ϵ 18:06
phenny U+03F5 GREEK LUNATE EPSILON SYMBOL (ϵ)
doy i can't think of any cases where you actually care about all possible values
GlitchMr Fun. My monospace font doesn't even have that symbol
doy if you're plotting a graph, you have some kind of resolution in mind
GlitchMr But perhaps in future, people will use Comic Sans MS for programming 18:07
[Coke] sisar; you can't traverse /all/ possible values, can you?
GlitchMr (ok, probably some other proportional font)
[Coke] do mean "to the resolution of float" ?
do *you* mean?
I think TimToady's sequence makes sense. 18:08
is there some ϵ
GlitchMr It reminds me www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/02/w...ogram.html
[Coke] Is there a ϵ that you expect by default?
GlitchMr "Write a program that prints the numbers from 1 to 100."
What's wrong with this?
TimToady [Coke]: we're talking about "nextafter" and "nexttoward" semantics
flussence it doesn't say what printer to use :)
sisar [Coke]: ideally you can't, but if you want a smooth graph, you need to traverse all the the possible float representations from a to b. 18:09
GlitchMr flussence: not that
But yeah, it probably should say prints to STDOUT
The problem is... the number of numbers from 1 to 100 is ∞. 18:10
TimToady we're talking about fake numbers, not real numbers
your font has ∞ but not ϵ? what's up with that? 18:12
GlitchMr Well, my proportional font has ϵ
But my monospace doesn't, so IRC client refuses to show it 18:13
It shows rectangle
[Coke] sisar; but you wouldn't graph every possible float betwen those 2 extremes. If you did, I want your monitor. (I assume this is supposed to be a pedagogical example, but I'm not seeing the utility)
moritz then get a better monospace font :-)
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TimToady I'd consider ∞ to need proportional more than ϵ does... 18:13
GlitchMr ... hmmm... I'm using "Monospace" as font 18:14
It's "Ubuntu Monospace", I guess...
TimToady so am I, why doesn't yours work? 18:15
sisar [Coke]: yes, i would not, that would be insane.
I was just trying very hard to come up with a use case for nextafter :-)
GlitchMr Oh, wait, it isn't "Ubuntu Monospace" 18:17
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GlitchMr This is so confusing 18:17
It's simply called "Monospace" and "Ubuntu Monospace" is separate font
flussence monospace is a symlink of sorts to whatever the distro decides the default should be 18:18
GlitchMr oh, ok 18:19
It appears to use "Droid Sand Mono"
After trying every font installed on my PC
Sans
s/Sand/Sans/ 18:20
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GlitchMr And I was wondering why it this font looks identically to font I see when logging on SSH using my Android phone... 18:20
flussence `fc-match monospace` might help :)
Su-Shee Monospace is usally Deja Vu Sans Mono or Bitstream Vera Sans Mono under many distributions. 18:21
GlitchMr: check your /etc/fonts/conf.d or conf.avail etc. and there should be a describtion for your "monospace" 18:22
GlitchMr Dejavu Sans Mono seems to work well 18:23
Two other fonts also have ϵ, but they look ugly for me
Su-Shee GlitchMr: dejavu sans mono works very well.. 18:24
but so does droid mono: frollein-schmidt.de/screenshots/dro...o-utf8.png 18:25
GlitchMr Why would Russian string have translation and Japanese wouldn't 18:27
flussence I had to change the monospace in my browser from that to something else today, because it wasn't displaying underscores for some reason. But yeah, it usually works fine
GlitchMr flussence: I remember having this issue with Kate on Windows once ;)
Changing font helped too
Su-Shee GlitchMr: because you can configure which unicode range should use which font with fontconfig/freetype/pango 18:28
flussence I remember in the bad old days, on something like kde 3.1, the default fonts and rendering were *horrible* :)
Su-Shee that's qt's font handling, no idea how that works. I was assuming ubuntu with gnome or unity and then it's fontconfig/freetype/pango underneath gtk. 18:29
GlitchMr Because you know, don't leave UNIX without UNIX tools ;)
Su-Shee (or xfce..)
GlitchMr It's Kubuntu
But whatever
Su-Shee uh, no "whatever", it's different.. 18:31
flussence qt4 seems sane nowadays at least (same stack as GTK). I wish it had that ctrl+shift+u feature GTK has though
diakopter TimToady: postcontemporary; haha
GlitchMr > 'a' =eq= 'a' 18:34
True
I like having fun without custom operators
Su-Shee flussence: qt4 isn't the same stack as gtk. :) 18:37
flussence: ctrl-shift-u is an iso-standard btw :)
flussence eh? `ldd libQtGui.so` shows me fontconfig and freetype in use... 18:38
Su-Shee flussence: there's more, pango, cairo, atk are all part of gtk underneath. 18:39
flussence: specifically pango is "the unicode part"
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FROGGS does somebody know how to do this? "text".MyClass.my-method 18:45
like "/path/to/something".IO....
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FROGGS does my class just needs a role or something? 18:45
FROGGS likes to go totally perl6y 18:46
I somebody could point me to a FM (as in RTFM) that would be super sweet too 18:49
Su-Shee you mean method chaining with class methods?
FROGGS err, if that looks like what I posted then yes 18:50
Su-Shee hm, never needed that.. 18:51
moritz in case of 'path'.IO, there is simply a method called 'IO' in class Str
FROGGS meh
I was hoping that IO has something special to allow that 18:52
Su-Shee to allow what?
moritz prefers plain old method calls over magic
you can write IO($something), and then it's the responsibility of the IO class
FROGGS right now I am doing MyObject.my-method( "text_goes_here" ), and I was just wondering if I could do "text_goes_here".MyClass.my-method 18:53
like "text".write-to-graphic-surface
moritz not without monkey-patching class Str
FROGGS (shorter names of course) 18:54
moritz and you really shouldn't do that
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FROGGS okay, dont like monkey typing 18:54
moritz FROGGS: method calls a.b(c) reads as subject.verb(object)
FROGGS: if you write that "text".write-to-graphic-surface, it's object.verb -- that totally breaks the pattern 18:55
FROGGS buts that the current style, isnt it?
"text".say
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moritz that's why I prefer to write say('text') 18:55
(or without the parens)
FROGGS basically I would like to supply both
Su-Shee FROGGS: it depends.
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FROGGS on what? 18:56
Su-Shee FROGGS: what makes more sense for your object? "hello".do_stuff_with_hello or object.do_stuff_with_this('hello')
FROGGS the first one, a bit 18:57
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FROGGS my object just draws that text to another surface 18:57
the object itself is just a big picture containing images for "all" chars 18:58
so $text.write-to( $target ) would make more sense to me
Su-Shee FROGGS: then you paint stuff on the surface -> canvas.paint('hello') 18:59
FROGGS right now it is: $font.write-to( $target, $x, $y, $text )
Su-Shee FROGGS: the sheer amount of your parameters already tells you that it's not a good idea. also you're juggling three objects here: font, target and text 19:00
FROGGS if the canvas invokes this, I have to supply the font somehow... (intializing ot takes much time currently)
moritz nr: say 'abc123' ~~ / <:isL>+/
FROGGS right, three objects
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«Unicode property 'isL' not found␤ in regex at /tmp/Mdb2NYmbzq:1␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/CORE.setting:10050␤ in block at /tmp/Mdb2NYmbzq:1␤␤»
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤␤ISL does not exist as a UCD table at /tmp/I80dDdCOya line 1:␤------> say 'abc123' ~~ / <:isL⏏>+/␤␤Unhandled exception: Check failed␤␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1435 (die @ 5) ␤ at …
moritz nr: say 'abc123' ~~ / <:L>+/
p6eval rakudo f48867: OUTPUT«｢abc｣␤␤»
..niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«#<match from(0) to(3) text(abc) pos([].list) named({}.hash)>␤»
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Su-Shee FROGGS: you invoke the font on the text, because text is a painted thing when it comes to canvases, so the font usally is a property of text. 19:01
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Su-Shee FROGGS: because labels can have fonts as well. 19:01
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Su-Shee FROGGS: just look how other painting/drawing systems do it, they're all quite similar. 19:02
FROGGS ya, and not object orientated 19:03
Su-Shee FROGGS: and remember that in your context usally everything is a path which gets stroked on a surface and then stacked and manipulated. details like font, color, size etc are usally properties.
doy almost all of them are actually object oriented
even if they are written in a non-object oriented language
Su-Shee FROGGS: what doy says.
FROGGS Su-Shee: there are no other font properties except the font image file, its juft like blitting parts of the font image according to the given text 19:04
Su-Shee FROGGS: label = new Label; label font: monospace
FROGGS its not monospace-able 19:05
no other heights, no other colors to set
Su-Shee FROGGS: it doesn't matter if it is an actual font or a font image. you place it on a surface and let the surface render it.
FROGGS: details, unimportant.
text = new Image. surface.foreground( 19:06
err.. surface.foreground.rotate.distort('someimage') :)
FROGGS so we can agree that the text should be the "acting object", right? 19:07
not the target/canvas, not the font
Su-Shee should distort the image, rotate it, stack it fo the foreground and be placed on the surface which then usally does something like surface.display or canvas.render or whatever
FROGGS: no in that case it shouldn't, because the text is placed passively on the canvas. 19:08
FROGGS so you mean: canvas.write-to-me( $text, $x, $y ) ?
Su-Shee FROGGS: unless it's a postscript font based text which in itself is a path/vector then it certainly is a more powerful object on its own.
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moritz I'd expect a text object to have much more information than just a Str 19:09
like, a font size, a color etc.
Su-Shee FROGGS: usally, it's more generic along the lines of canvas.render or window.display or something like this...
FROGGS moritz: that all depends on the surface, it's not changeable 19:10
when I do like multi method canvas.render( Str ), that does different stuff with other arguments, than how to select the font? 19:11
canvas.font ?
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Su-Shee FROGGS: you're basically reimplmenting something like Cairo, look at its API. www.cairographics.org/tutorial/ 19:12
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moritz canvas.render(Str, :font<Arial>) 19:12
FROGGS I'm reimplementing it, but using it in another case (libpango, libSDL_ttf)
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Su-Shee FROGGS: why are you trying to overdo it? just keep it simple.. 19:12
FROGGS thats the point, it should be simple 19:13
letting all happen on a single object (the canvas) is... weird to me 19:14
you have several ways to draw texts (using surface fonts, true type), than you have several other was to draw stuff (sprites, animated, smpeg). I cant let it happen all on the one canvas object 19:15
its like having 200 methods
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Su-Shee FROGGS: because that's where all the stuff is put on. and usally canvas knows only some basic methods like render and a couple of properties like its type, size etc 19:15
no, it's not. 19:16
FROGGS I'm a bit confused
I thought you ment to let the canvas be the actor? 19:17
Su-Shee FROGGS: look how cairo does it, it's basically a constant creating of a path, assigning properties to that path, set placement directions and let the canvas render it.
FROGGS: it's the same as creating GUIs... you have some container (a window), it needs some placement directions (a grid) and then you create plenty of widget objects which have their properties and methods and just place them into the container. then you say "display" and that's it. 19:18
FROGGS: your container is a surface/canvas and it render "stuff" on it. you create plenty of "stuff", set the "stuff's" properties and arrange it on the canvas/surface and say "now render this shit". 19:19
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FROGGS okay, think I know what you mean 19:20
Su-Shee FROGGS: and thankfully, tons of widget systems and painting libraries all work similar (seems noone has invented a much better system until now, which is quite interesting), so just do it "like everybody else" (at your first try at least..)
FROGGS well, I basically just know libSDL, a C-lib, and the function are lib SDL_BlitSurface( surfaceA, surfaceB ) 19:21
Su-Shee FROGGS: and the decision if your lib counts as "simple" (preferably in the meaning of "elegantly clear and concise") is how easy it is to juggle all the tiny objects on the surface and how nice it is to call their methods... 19:22
FROGGS its not that surfaceA is doing something with B or vice versa
moritz well, C doesn't have methods
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Su-Shee FROGGS: also, if I remember correctly, SDL isn't really a generic drawing lib but this game toolkit thingie? 19:22
FROGGS: in OO, you'd probably do surfaceA.blit(withsurfaceB) 19:23
or, create a surfaceC = new BlittedSurface(surfaceA, SurfaceB) 19:24
FROGGS well, its not wrong what you said but not actually true, sdl is a hardware+os independant layer that lets you draw, play music, handle controller, network, whatever
Su-Shee something along those lines..
FROGGS but I got ya
Su-Shee FROGGS: no idea, I care only for 2d painting and GUI widgets...
moritz n: say 'foo bar'.wordcase 19:28
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unable to resolve method wordcase in type Str␤ at /tmp/7aYPpGWwu6 line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4138 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4139 (module-CORE @ 571) ␤ at /hom…
moritz n: say 'foo bar'.capitalize
p6eval niecza v21-1-ga8aa70b: OUTPUT«Foo Bar␤»
dalek kudo/nom: d1f4dc7 | moritz++ | / (4 files):
implement wordcase, deprecate capitalize
 19:29
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TimToady moritz: 'my token identifier' seems unused (and with *%, wrongish) 20:26
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dalek d: 1ab8225 | larry++ | Makefile:
setup to recompile CORE5 setting
 20:30
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lichtkind sorear: i can tell why we had err and orelse in parallel 20:36
split brain syndrom
err was in the op table ebside // and orlese in anoother with andthen handlinbg pairs of blocks 20:37
moritz: could you please show me orelse in test suite? 20:38
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[Coke] lichtkind: S03-operators/short-circuit.t S03-operators/assign.t S16-filehandles/chmod.t S16 20:46
-filehandles/filestat.t S16-filehandles/dir.t S03-metaops/reduce.t S10-packages/
require-and-use.t
sorry about crappy cutnpaste 20:47
lichtkind thanks
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masak good morning, #perl6! 21:49
FROGGS \o masak 22:00
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sorear o/ masak 22:11
isn't this a bit early for you? 22:12
masak sorear: you're still not used to UGT, I gather ;) 22:14
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masak but yeah, actually getting up at this time of day would be ridiculously early. 22:19
I'm not sure I've ever done that, actually. and I've experimented some with turning the clock.
TimToady I really wish my font wouldn't say "Oh, it's not East Asian, so it must not be double wide" 22:27
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masak 'night, #perl6 22:37
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TimToady single wide: ⑳ double wide: ㉑ 22:38
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lichtkind night mäsak 22:49
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