»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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diakopter erm 00:10
rn: say 'alive'
... 00:11
p6eval rakudo 3619d7, niecza v22-14-g136ddcf: OUTPUT«alive␤»
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diakopter benabik: what's your Dr. topic? anything interesting to #perl6 ? 01:11
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[Coke] www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=17585 - nice article about programming from a video game POV, dealing with bugs, complexity, and user's inability to trust what the developer's done. 01:27
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benabik diakopter: Not yet decided. I am currently in the compiler research group, so maybe. 01:32
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diakopter benabik: do you have an interest in JITs? 03:46
benabik diakopter: Some, although I haven't poked at it much. 03:47
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benabik diakopter: vmkit is interesting, but I wasn't terribly impressed by the GC: Use a java-based system by translating it to native code by our own custom Java VM. 03:57
diakopter: But I'm heading to bed now.
diakopter o/ 03:59
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cognominal rn: say (1 => 2).key.WHAT 05:56
p6eval rakudo 3619d7, niecza v22-14-g136ddcf: OUTPUT«Int()␤»
cognominal That is what is expected but .fatarrow is defined as make make_pair($<key>.Str, $<val>.ast); How come the key is not stringified? 05:57
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azawawi hi 06:17
phenny azawawi: 25 Oct 06:05Z <tadzik> tell azawawi indeed, fixed now. Strange thing though :)
azawawi tadzik: thx
tadzik++
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azawawi what environment variables does perl6 rakudo use besides PERL6LIB? Any documentation on that? 06:28
Just to make my question a bit clearer; are there any shared environment variables besides PERL6LIB between perl6 implementations? 06:29
sorear r and n both explicitly use $HOME 06:30
azawawi sorear: hi 06:31
sorear: i was wondering how to detect different perl6 runtimes inside Farabi6 06:32
sorear: that's what i asked about shared env variables (if any)
sorear rn: say $*PERL // $?PERL
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $?PERL is not declared␤at /tmp/RApncUw9FG:1␤»
..niecza v22-14-g136ddcf: OUTPUT«{"build-time" => 1350511210.0345931e0, "name" => "niecza", "version" => "v22-14-g136ddcf"}␤»
sorear rn: say $*PERL // eval '$?PERL'
p6eval niecza v22-14-g136ddcf: OUTPUT«{"build-time" => 1350511210.0345931e0, "name" => "niecza", "version" => "v22-14-g136ddcf"}␤»
..rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«("name" => "rakudo", "compiler" => {"name" => "rakudo", "ver" => "2012.10-30-g3619d77", "release-number" => "", "build-date" => "2012-10-25T22:09:21Z", "codename" => ""}).hash␤»
azawawi is there a webservice like this IRC bot that i can utilize for running snippets inside Farabi6? 06:34
sorear there used to be try.rakudo.org
right now I think your best bet is perlito 06:35
phenny: "farabi"?
phenny sorear: "farabi" (tr to en, translate.google.com)
sorear phenny: ar en "farabi"?
phenny sorear: "farabi" (ar to en, translate.google.com)
sorear phenny: il en "farabi"? 06:36
phenny sorear: "farabi" (tr to en, translate.google.com)
azawawi i will try running farabi under niecza also
sorear phenny: he en "farabi"?
phenny sorear: "farabi" (iw to en, translate.google.com)
azawawi sorear: metacpan.org/module/Farabi 06:37
sorear aha 06:39
azawawi tries niecza
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kresike good morning all you happy perl6 people 07:29
brrt \o kresike 07:37
kresike brrt, o/ 07:38
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the-golem moritz: ping 07:40
sorear o/ 07:44
colomon \o
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sjohnson -o- 07:45
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the-golem \o/ 07:49
brrt everybody awake?
hoelzro \o/ 07:50
brrt now dance
\o
o/
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the-golem o\ 07:50
FROGGS _o_ 07:55
\o\
/o/
morning
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moritz |o| 08:00
FROGGS ohh, the mechanical
\o_ <-- saturday night fever 08:01
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colomon [o] 08:43
jnthn morning o/ 08:44
FROGGS hi
macarena -> =o o= /o\ --o-- 08:46
sorear ō̱ 08:47
jnthn
.oO( it's easy to backlog when it's mostly ascii-art dancing :D )
 08:48
phenny: tell [Coke] nqp only pays attention to types in signatures when it's a multi sub or multi method, or when it's int/num/str in which case it uses a native lexical to store the parameter. 08:49
phenny jnthn: I'll pass that on when [Coke] is around.
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dalek pan style="color: #395be5">perl6-examples: 57bdd7d | (Gerhard R)++ | euler/prob029-gerdr.pl:
[euler/prob029] modify algorithm
 09:56
pan style="color: #395be5">perl6-examples: 1e2d228 | (Gerhard R)++ | euler/prob029-gerdr.pl:
[euler/prob029] add version using feeds
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masak good mroing, #perl6 10:00
brrt \o masak 10:01
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CharellKing good afternoon 10:02
jnthn good moonring, masak 10:03
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arnsholt :q 10:08
hugme hugs arnsholt, good vi(m) user!
phenny hugme: 05 Oct 17:31Z <sjohnson> tell hugme to fulfill its hugging quota
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not_gerd hello, #perl6 10:08
masak phenny: tell cognominal keys are not stringified in pairs. if they were, pairs would be a bad fit for hashes that didn't coerce their keys to strings. 10:09
phenny masak: I'll pass that on when cognominal is around.
not_gerd having fun with project euler and perl6
r: (-> \A, \B = A { 2..Int(sqrt A) ==> map -> \a { (a, a**2, a**3 ...^ * > A) Z=> (a X 1..*).tree } ==> reverse() ==> hash() ==> values() ==> (-> @a, @b { @a X @b })(2..B) ==> map -> \n, [\r, \e] { (r) => e * n } ==> (-> @a { @a - @a.uniq })() ==> ((A - 1) * (B - 1) - *)() })(100).say
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«9183␤»
masak ooh
not_gerd let's try for timeout 10:11
r: +(2..100 X=> 2..100).classify({ .key ** .value }).say
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
not_gerd ;)
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not_gerd r: say +(2..100 X=> 2..100).classify({ .key ** .value }) 10:12
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 10:13
FROGGS r: my @a = 0..9,3,5,8; @a -= @a.uniq; @a.say
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«3␤»
FROGGS ^--- why not 3 5 8 ? 10:14
tadzik well, er
r: my @a = 0..9,3,5,8; say +@a; say +@a.uniq
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«13␤10␤»
tadzik you substracted those 2 10:15
FROGGS so it is not like array a complement array b ?
tadzik infix:<-> numifies both arrays, and gives back a Numeric 10:16
(I guses)
FROGGS r: my @a = 0..9,3,5,8; @a -= 1; @a.say
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«12␤»
FROGGS k
not_gerd r: set(0..9,6..12).say 10:18
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«set(0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)␤»
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masak FROGGS: the thinko you're making is assuming infix:<-> ever means "set subtraction". it doesn't -- it always means numeric subtraction. 10:24
(unless you redefine it against the core principles of Perl) 10:25
Perl is operator-based, that is, a lot of the type information can be found in the choice of operator. when you see +-*/, you know it's about numbers.
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FROGGS ya, I just thought there is some special magic about +- on array when I saw not_gerd's "... (-> @a { @a - @a.uniq })() ..." 10:29
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masak no, arithmetic operators always numify their operands before arithmeting on them. 10:38
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masak similarly, if you do prefix:<!> on an array, it will be boolified before it's negated. 10:40
and if you do infix:<~> on two things, the two things will be stringified before being concatenated. 10:41
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not_gerd bye, #perl6 10:44
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masak fare thyself well, not_gerd. 10:45
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masak heh. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poes_law -- "Any sufficiently advanced parody is indistinguishable from a genuine kook." :) 12:22
partly this is built into irony and sarcasm, I guess. they thrive on the uncertainty of the actual viewpoint.
but the low bandwidth of text only serves to make the signal harder to pick up in the noise. 12:23
moritz tries hard to refrain from saying "Oh really?" 12:32
moritz fails
jnthn YA RLY
masak moritz: wait, I'm confused. did you really mean to be sarcastic there, or are you actually questioning the premise? 12:34
(that was sacrasm, by the way. just so you know.)
how many levels up are we now? three? four? dang. 12:35
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moritz we don't need to know the exact count, as long as we know if it's even or odd :-) 12:38
brrt are you suggesting that sarcasm negates? 12:39
masak no!
masak .oO( odd-length sarcasm circularity detected. your sarcasm has fallen victim to paradoxical undecidability. ) 12:40
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eiro hello 12:54
moritz eiro/
eiro doc.perl6.org/type/IO doesn't contain slurp method, open() returns an IO and can be slurped 12:55
how is it so ?
masak eir\o 12:56
eiro hello moritz! thanks for replying on the list :) i haven't answered yet. i will. (i'm trying to figure out how to use named captures of the match)
i'm trying to find the simplest way to save an array in a file (1 element by line) 12:57
moritz what are the elements? 13:01
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eiro just strings. i'm trying somehting like open('foo',:w).lines(@foo) 13:04
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eiro i meant i wish it would be so simple 13:04
but as i said: open returns an IO and i don't see slurp in the IO doc so i'm confused 13:05
moritz my $f = open('foo', :w); $f.say($_) for @lines; $f.close;
@lines = 'foo'.IO.slurp.lines; # reading back 13:06
or for writing:
spurt 'foo', join '', @lines.map: * ~ "\n";
eiro moritz, that's quiet long when you're used to IO::All
spurt ? /me search the doc 13:07
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masak spurt is quite new, mostly because it took us forever to arrive on a non-gross name for it. 13:09
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eiro spurt "/tmp/foozzzzzzzzzzzz" 13:12
, @foo.join("\n")
, :append;
:-) fine! that's not as short as io('') but it's ok 13:13
IO::All could be nice in perl6
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eiro hello cognominal 13:13
masak eiro: putting the commas like that makes me think of blog.urth.org/2012/10/please-dont-w...-code.html
eiro: do you agree that it's common practice to put commas before the linebreak, not after? 13:14
eiro masak, i have strong ideas on it: postfixed , sucks :)
masak eiro: right, but do you agree about the common practice?
[Coke] I could not disagree with the gentleman across the aisle more.
phenny [Coke]: 08:49Z <jnthn> tell [Coke] nqp only pays attention to types in signatures when it's a multi sub or multi method, or when it's int/num/str in which case it uses a native lexical to store the parameter.
masak [Coke]: yay, an enlightened discussion! :)
eiro mostly by habits and not thinking about it but yes 13:15
masak I'm thinking about it right now.
cognominal hi, eiro
phenny cognominal: 10:09Z <masak> tell cognominal keys are not stringified in pairs. if they were, pairs would be a bad fit for hashes that didn't coerce their keys to strings.
masak I sill prefer comma-before-linebreak.
eiro masak, bugs are much easier to catch, lines to continues, tabs to save when you prefix with ,
masak please take me through that argument step by step. when it's summarized like that, I don't buy it. 13:17
eiro masak, it was a coding style in a former employer and i hated it first. then i wondered why the company code was easier to debug than mine. i realized that the prefixed style was one of the reasons
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masak I'm future-proofing my comma code, too. I do it by adding a trailing comma to the last element when I can. 13:17
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eiro sure: step 1 (i made the experience with many coworkers) 13:17
masak that way, I can re-order my items freely. 13:18
eiro my @foo = (
masak with your style, the first line is special.
eiro 'a',
'b',
'c',
),
show it, show that compiles. he'll say "ok"
masak I've never made that error, or seen it made by someone else. 13:19
eiro now make him watch out, remove a trailing , and recompile
masak or did you really mean ');' ?
eiro "bang! where is the bug?" : he'll take some times to catch it
same experience with
@foo =
( 'a'
masak I'm all for putting in the trailing comma. I do that, too.
eiro , 'b' 13:20
'c'
);
the error is now obvious
moritz I doo that too,
masak moritz: :P
eiro: this does not convince me.
eiro: I put trailing commas in. the code is now such that I can move whole lines around without breaking the code. that is enough. 13:21
eiro masak, arf ...
masak eiro: want me to gist you an example?
oh wait, my style is like the 'my @foo = (' example you pasted above. never mind.
except I usually end the statement with a semicolon :P
eiro masak, this is a long discution! i'll be delighted to show you some stupid bugs seen because of it but i have no time. will yuou join fosdem ? 13:22
masak heh :)
the conference or the IRC channel?
flussence
.oO( I usually use qw() to avoid all that... )
eiro (because i really would like to expose my thoughts about it)
masak flussence: indeed. I do that when applicable.
brrt in javascript, ie6 thinks having a trainling comma is an error in an object literal 13:23
only ie6 thinks so
that, my friend, is a nice source of bugs
masak eiro: I'd like to continue listen to your thoughts about it. I think it looks really ugly, but some practical advantage might help. still haven't seen the practical advantage.
eiro i remember a funny bug when mixing missing , and minus prefixed key
masak eiro: maybe the different is that copy whole lines? as long as I do that, no bugs.
eiro (because minus becomes the - operator)
masak or rather, no comma-related surprises.
eiro: your style makes the first line special. 13:24
brrt and, i now sql server management studio (ms tool) does it in eiro's style too
flussence brrt: IE6 is actually right in that case. You'll get a warning about it if you use firebug with strict mode enabled.
brrt honestly?
i haven't seen it in /any/ other browser
and, i think the other behavior is useful
cognominal too bad, TimToady does not own the semicolon and the comma. He would save us endless discussion
flussence it's pedantic and useless correctness, but it *is* following spec
masak brrt: trailing commas aren't allowed in JavaScript object literals (or arrays). 13:25
flussence (for a change...)
moritz JSON and SQL don't allow trailing commas :(
masak was just gonna say :(
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masak C allows it, IIRC. 13:25
it's a nice kind of laxness that really helps sometimes.
brrt i can see how it makes parsing - a bit - harder
eiro masak, ok: kivutar and me are writing an experimental static blog engine in perl6. my first blog post will be for you. ok ? 13:26
eiro copy paste the chatlog
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masak eiro: :D 13:26
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eiro need to set the engine up: almost working and kivutar is leaving soon so i want to finish it 13:27
back to the code
masak eiro: sorry if I come off as obtuse. the style is so ugly I was sure you had some good reason for preferring it. I just wanted to know if I could understand that reason. so far, no.
[Coke]: and you -- did you just disagree for the sake of it, or did you have something more to say? :) 13:28
eiro masak, as i said: i have to explain it. hope it will not be as slow as accept it as a best practice i saw 13:30
masak I doubt I'll change my style, but I'll keep an open mind. 13:31
eiro is there a way to pipe an array to a command ? (ipc open3) easily ?
i doubt too but you asked me, this is a good thing to share (even if it's wrong) and it's a good idea for your engine 13:32
masak *nod* 13:33
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eiro any project of syntax hilighter in perl6? this would be a usefull show off of grammars ? 13:39
hoelzro eiro: I was thinking of adding it to linguist and pygments
moritz hoelzro: that's syntax hilighters *for* Perl 6, not *in* Perl 6 13:40
the-golem moritz: hi :-)
eiro hoelzro, i meant: we're using pygments to highlight our codes ( zsh, perl5, perl6 ) in the blog posts. it would be great to have perl6 modules for that 13:41
hoelzro oh, ok =)
masak I would like to see a good, solid syntax highlighter written in Perl 6. one that preferably didn't pull in a whole parser of the Perl 6 language. 13:43
eiro sure ... for the moment i'm just stuggle with the basics. ask cognominal :) 13:44
masak it's an interesting question how close a highlighter that just did lexing would come to doing things "right". 13:45
most highlighters just do lexing, or mostly lexing, I think.
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cognominal masak, problem is that Perl 6 lexing use context from the parser 13:52
flussence I guess the job's a lot easier if you ignore things like user-defined syntax 13:53
masak cognominal: indeed.
flussence (but even with that, p5 still manages to make it hard...)
masak cognominal: so does Perl 5 lexing.
cognominal and syntax highlighter is a (common) misnomer if what you do is just hiliting tokens 13:54
[Coke] masak: I very much dislike that style., along with if(cond)\n{\n... *shrug*. it's what you're used to. I don't think either is inherently more bugcatchier.
If your team has a style, follow it. Any thing else is taste. 13:55
(if you can enforce your team's style automatically, for goodness sake, do that!)
we cannot easily do that here, so I find myself slowing fixing style when I bugfix other people's code. PITA>
cognominal I dream the day the reference for the "source" would be the AST so that anyone could choose his own style for the view. 13:57
masak [Coke]: full ACK on following @team's style. I have no problem with that. still have personal preferences when I code on my own.
cognominal that would means that diff would not been line based
that would put to rest one Timtoady's claim to fame, patch 13:58
flussence
.oO( I think I need a better @team. Nobody else has worked on the codebase at $dayjob but me in 4 years, and when they do look at it they only nitpick the formatting... )
 13:59
masak cognominal: gofmt does that, except there's only one true formatting.
cognominal gofmt?
masak cognominal: in the Google Go toolset. 14:00
flussence: nitpicking on the formatting is missing the point. formatting isn't where the features sit.
brrt … how much sense would it make
to implement p6 in go
masak flussence: as one who has judged two Perl 6 Coding Contexts, one learns to look past formatting differences ;) 14:01
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flussence masak: exactly! worse still, my boss seems to be *un*learning perl5. I had to spend 10 minutes explaining to him a "%var = map {...;($x, $y)} @input" last week... 14:03
masak :/ 14:04
masak .oO( bet he was asking where the comma after the block went ) :P
flussence ...he was asking what the parentheses were for :( 14:05
flussence considers quitting for the sake of my mental health 14:06
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masak flussence: uh, what are the parentheses for? :) gist.github.com/3959020 14:09
flussence I'd put them in on the misguided assumption that it'd make the code more readable to people who struggle with concepts like "returning mulitple values from a block" :) 14:10
cognominal people always think the parentheses are the list composer and not the comma
Perl 6 will help to put that to rest with the assigment low precedence in list context 14:11
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masak 's "Perl 6 will" alarm triggers 14:15
GlitchMr Perl 6 will work 14:17
Perl 6 will be released
(oh, wait, it already was) 14:18
masak depends what you mean, I guess. 14:20
flussence I doubt that particular $dayjob will ever get to use p6. I pointed out to them 5.10 is half a decade old and ubuntu LTS comes with 5.14, and the response was pretty much a blank stare.
brrt flussence, you don't seem to be happy about $dayjob 14:21
masak flussence: we're hiring.
flussence I think I need a few months rest before I go looking for another programmer job... 14:23
jnthn We'll still be hiring in a few months :P
flussence I'll think about it then :) 14:24
masak also, our employer is awesome and both jnthn and I really like working for them.
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[Coke] flussence: you can be on my team! You just have to move here and do cold fusion. :P 14:28
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brrt jnthn, masak: will you still be hiring in two years? 14:34
masak dunno. 14:36
brrt :-)
don't expect too
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masak hey, what's the Perl 5 equivalent of <?{ $0 ~~ /foo/ }> in a regex? 15:01
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doy what does that do? 15:03
masak it fails the current branch of the regex if the first capture group doesn't contain "foo". 15:05
doy (?{$1 =~ /foo/}) probably 15:06
hmmm
don't remember if $1 is available yet 15:07
masak should be.
does regex re-entrancy enter into this situation?
doy probably, although p5 regexes have been reentrant since 5.10 15:08
masak perdoc perlre says that (?{}) always suceeds.
doy ah, (?((?{$1 =~ /foo}))(*ACCEPT)|(*FAIL)) i guess 15:10
masak yes, that's what I was looking for. doy++
um, except I think I should have '' there rather than '(*ACCEPT)' 15:12
doy oh, right 15:13
i don't really use the weird regex stuff very often
(:
masak and there shouldn't be double parens around that inner (?{}), it seems... 15:14
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doy perl -E'say "foo" =~ /(...)(?(?{$1 =~ m[foo]})|(*FAIL))/' # yeah, this appears to work for me 15:17
masak \o/
I've abandoned this approach, though.
I'm doing that logic in the substitution part of s///e instead. 15:18
comes out slightly cleaner.
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masak hehe, fell into the "a ? b ! c" trap again :) 15:18
15:19 SamuraiJack left
masak Perl 5 should have an error messages that catches that for poor Perl 6 programmers like me ;) 15:19
doy (:
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masak "the more you try to emulate parsing with just regexes, the more silly you will look" -- masak 15:25
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masak I say that as someone whose substitution part ended up containing three nested s/// expressions. 15:26
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jnthn Only 3? :P 15:29
masak I got away easy ;) 15:30
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PerlJam masak: re ternary op. I wonder how prescient perl 6 can be with it's error messages? "Hey, it looks like you're trying to do <insert some common idiom from some non-perl language>, perhaps you want <insert the appropriate Perl 6 idiom>" 15:45
(and I doubt that Perl 5 will suddenly start spoiling us like Perl 6 has :-) 15:47
jnthn r: class A { }; my $x = new A();
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of C++ constructor syntax; in Perl 6 please use method call syntax␤at /tmp/Utt5O9bW5C:1␤»
jnthn ;)
PerlJam okay, okay, the future is already here :)
We just need to add some for Ruby, Java, Python, Javascript, C, and Haskell ... 15:49
cognominal_ next step is "should I correct it for you and start over?" 15:51
TimToady by removing the other parser? :D
PerlJam heh
cognominal_ :) 15:52
masak std: <<<<<<<
p6eval std 64edd1c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse shell-quote words at /tmp/rQqao7Qycg line 1:␤------> <BOL>⏏<<<<<<<␤Couldn't find final '>>'; gave up at /tmp/rQqao7Qycg line 1 (EOF):␤------> <<<<<<<⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 …
masak std: say "OH HAI";␤<<<<<<< 15:53
p6eval std 64edd1c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse shell-quote words at /tmp/aqQWgN2SM_ line 2:␤------> <BOL>⏏<<<<<<<␤Couldn't find final '>>'; gave up at /tmp/aqQWgN2SM_ line 2 (EOF):␤------> <<<<<<<⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 …
flussence
.oO( I think git actually checks for that one... )
masak hm, trying to trigger the "version control marker" error.
PerlJam flussence: oddly, I was thinking of git too. It goes "assuming you meant <blah> in N second(s)" and then goes ahead 15:54
(maybe I just crossed the streams though :)
TimToady std: <<<<<<<␤=======␤>>>>>>>␤
p6eval std 64edd1c: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Found a version control conflict marker at /tmp/rzAS1qpjc2 line 1:␤------> <<<<<<<⏏<EOL>␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:00 40m␤»
timotimo_ that's cute 15:55
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masak TimToady++ 15:57
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TimToady masak: cognominal_ expected the non-stringified key, but wanted to know why the .Str in the code seemed to not do anything 16:07
cognominal_ indeed
but the code I pasted is not called when I do : 1 => 2 16:08
TimToady I misread it the first time too, y'see...
is that the :foo(42) code instead?
cognominal_ I did not find the code that parse it?
TimToady that *does* stringify
cognominal_ indeed 16:09
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cognominal_ so what is the rule that parses 1 => 2 16:09
TimToady well, I'm guessing an ack for Pair might find it eventually...
cognominal_ TimToady: pesky natural languages, so ambiguous
TimToady mais oui! 16:10
PerlJam cognominal_: fatarrow?
cognominal_ nope, that the action I pasted
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TimToady that's probably called only on the bareword => form 16:11
masak oh!
TimToady I'd guess the action method for infix:« => » is what you're looking for 16:12
masak I'm happy to accept that I misunderstood cognominal_.
cognominal_ TimToady: indeed
masak still not clear on what he wanted, though :)
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masak could you perhaps show the surprising behavior in a p6eval? 16:12
cognominal_ masak: I was surprised that fatarrow always generated a pair with a string. Now, I know it is not called on code like 1 => 2 16:13
masak fatarrow is not called on code like 1 => 2? 16:15
I'm confused.
cognominal_ because 1 is not a bareword in Perl 6
TimToady the fatarrow rule is called only on lookahead of => from a bareword 16:16
at least in STD
cognominal_ I mean even before a =>
masak I see. 16:17
TimToady the fatarrow token is defined in STD as <key=.identifier> \h* '=>' <.ws> <val=.EXPR(item %item_assignment)>
masak r: say (1 => 2).key.^name; say (foo => 2).key.^name
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«Int␤Str␤»
masak looks right to me.
or do you expect the 1 to be a Str? 16:18
cognominal_ Timtoady, searching for => in Grammar.pm is like finding an needle in a haystack, indeed search for Pair was the way to go.
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cognominal_ * for the good => 16:18
jnthn If you know it's called fatarrow, you can get there quickly :)
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TimToady the normal => (non bareword) is parsed by token infix:sym« => » 16:19
jnthn TimToady: Rakudo's parsing is the same as STDs there :)
cognominal_ jnthn, indeed, but I thougt it was called for 1 => 2 too
jnthn cognominal_: No, since 1 ain't an identifier :)
TimToady jnthn: cognominal_ was looking for *not* fatarrow
cognominal_ that why I was surprised by the key stringification 16:20
jnthn Oh!
OK :)
cognominal_ TimToady++
jnthn Also
r: my %h = class => 42;
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: ( no output )
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jnthn The fact it's \h* and not <.ws> matters for LTM to work out right in the above case too. 16:20
TimToady yup
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jnthn
.oO( I hope nobody has a coding style where they put the => on the line below )
 16:21
TimToady can't really have tokens containing <.ws>
I mean LTM tokens, not token keyword
jnthn Indeed 16:22
Thus the sigspace changes, so things in rule can meaningfully particpate in LTM
masak jnthn: I usually put all my => in a separate file, and then .gitignore it :P 16:24
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masak rn: say "hi ", ([~] <d m d m nt> Z~ <o i u o>) 16:30
p6eval rakudo 3619d7, niecza v22-14-g136ddcf: OUTPUT«hi domidumo␤»
masak oh, right.
rn: say "hi ", ([~] <d m d m nt> Z~ <o i u o "">) 16:31
p6eval rakudo 3619d7, niecza v22-14-g136ddcf: OUTPUT«hi domidumont""␤»
diakopter :)
masak nono
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masak rn: say "hi ", ([~] <d m d m nt> Z~ <<o i u o "">>) 16:31
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«hi domidumont␤»
..niecza v22-14-g136ddcf: OUTPUT«hi domidumont""␤»
masak nieczabug.
domidumont uh ?
masak rakudo++
TimToady nyi 16:32
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masak rn: say "hi, armitage{9 ** 2}" 16:32
p6eval rakudo 3619d7, niecza v22-14-g136ddcf: OUTPUT«hi, armitage81␤»
masak domidumont: just greating people through p6eval. please ignore me as applicable.
(though I was kinda pleased I managed to troll an "uh ?" out of you) :P
TimToady s/greating/grating/ :) 16:33
PerlJam domidumont: just understand that masak is crazy ... but in a good way :)
jnthn masak: It's pretty greet that you do that :P
armitage81 hi
PerlJam armitage81: greetings
domidumont masak: no problem :-) 16:34
masak shows PerlJam his crazy grin 16:35
diakopter masak: re syntax highlighter, yeah. with the latest version of Notepad++, I think it's become flexible enough to do such a thing
armitage81 im here because im learning perl by my self 16:36
PerlJam armitage81: Perl 5 or Perl 6?
(or both?)
masak armitage81: just curious, do you belong to a long, proud line of armitages?
armitage81 i think i have 5
PerlJam heh, nice juxtaposition :)
armitage81 im a network engineer student not developer 16:37
diakopter masak: but that doesn't help you
masak armitage81: Perl 5 is great. you could probably learn a lot of Perl 5 here. just be aware that this is #perl6.
armitage81 what the diference on 6 ?
masak armitage81: lots of them.
armitage81 really?
masak ya really.
PerlJam armitage81: it's like the difference between C and C++ only more so.
armitage81 wow i didn't know that
diakopter uncountable (by me) 16:38
masak armitage81: see strangelyconsistent.org/blog/perl-6...-languages
armitage81 oh that 's what i was thinking
c and c ++
oh thanks
flussence to use a network analogy, it's sort of like the difference between ipv4 and 6...
PerlJam masak: wow ... that was 2010? seems like just yesterday-ish
TimToady hmmm, how many years has IPv6 been coming now? 16:39
masak PerlJam: I agree.
flussence IIRC ipv6 is almost 20 years old by now... /me checks
armitage81 yeah 16:40
flussence oh, way off. 1998.
masak TimToady: since 1998. so, 14 years I guess.
TimToady so we got a couple more years :)
armitage81 but was released officialy few months ago
masak armitage81: what was? IPv6?
armitage81 anyway we still have ipv4 for a long time 16:41
masak yeah. same with Perl 5 ;)
flussence masak: yeah, there was some thing on 6/6 where a bunch of companies enabled it full time
PerlJam armitage81: I think you and I measure time differently :)
masak Perl 5 is putting food on people's families. Perl 6 isn't, at least not to a significant degree, yet.
PerlJam I don't think my family wants food put on them; they'd rather eat it. 16:42
TimToady Food fight!
armitage81 nop ipv6 existe for a years but offcially was realeased few months ago
sweet listen dead in june 16:43
masak PerlJam: you probably do know the reference, but just in case: www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_RSQSYgGB4 16:44
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cognominal_ also, arguably, C++ made C worse, Perl 6 should make Perl better 16:56
doy well, the idea was certainly for c++ to make c better
masak it probably did. maybe some of the features from C++ would have ended up in C had not C++ existed to absorb them :P 16:58
cognominal_ Larry did not rush Perl 6 using Perl 5 unliked C++ that was originally C with heavy preprocessing if my memory serves me well.
tadzik some of the features of C++ did end up in C, iirc
but that's probably not what you mean :) 16:59
cognominal_ well, STD is Perl 5 based
doy well, in theory the features did end up in c, but too many people are still stuck on c89, even now
cognominal_ same in Perl :) 17:00
tadzik ISTR reading some article by Dennis Ritchie, and he mentioned some of the really obvious things that were actually stolen from C++
cognominal_ meaning, stuck in 89
reading a lof of Perl code is like time travelling 17:01
doy i think most perl people are at least stuck in 99
(:
PerlJam cognominal_: It depnds on what you read as to which direction in time you're traveling though. 17:02
diakopter #perl6, I'd really like folks to be able to write lock-free data structures in Perl 6, so I need language support for CAS. Should it be merely a built in routine that takes an lvalue and two values, or special syntax? 17:03
cognominal_ reading code here is time travelling to Christmas
diakopter (special syntax so the lvalue is handled... as an lvalue) 17:04
masak tadzik: actually, I was mostly being facetious. 17:06
diakopter also, I think we need to be explicit about saying something like, "when a data structure such as a scalar, array, or hash starts to be used by multiple threads, its operation become atomic (either through global lock or lock-free-ness or whatever)"
masak agree that we need a strategy on parallelism. 17:07
PerlJam and then a *good* strategy if possible :) 17:09
masak one step at a time ;)
but CAS, from what I know about it, seems a very sensible foundation.
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diakopter .. 17:12
pmurias cognominal_: how did C++ make C worse?
cognominal_ C was portable, not C++ for years 17:13
flussence tries to write a non-static website in p6, and fails almost instantly 17:14
pmurias cognominal_: you mean C++ was not portable for years
rking cognominal_: You mean writing C++ that would be interpreted equally on various compilers?
masak flussence: it's been done :P
flussence masak: what, the writing part or the failing part? :)
rking Because g++ was pretty portable (though not as widely-installed as it is now)
cognominal_ rn: { eval " / :s() / "; CATCH { when * { say "hi "~ ($_.message ~~ /l.*?l/) }} } 17:15
masak rking: or that would not work on all compilers.
p6eval niecza v22-14-g136ddcf: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Action method mod_arg not yet implemented␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/boot/lib/CORE.setting line 1437 (die @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/STD.pm6 line 5633 (STD.sorry @ 7) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/src/NieczaActions.pm6 line 63 (Niecz…
..rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«hi literal␤»
masak flussence: both, I suppose ;)
cognominal_ I am proud of my "hi literal" :)
rking So the original statement was "C++ made C worse, Perl 6 should make Perl better". So is that referring to the language itself or system details like how widely available a consistent interpreter will be? 17:16
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cognominal_ may be that was just a troll :( 17:17
PerlJam is sorry he mentioned C/C++
flussence of the things I've tried so far, this part of the ecosystem is a mess: couldn't get lighttpd to talk to SCGI, Bailador errors out because it can't find the current directory, and Web won't install through panda... going to try that FastCGI thing now 17:18
oh that's a relief, DBIish's `make test` is a lot more sane than MiniDBI... 17:21
masak cognominal_: innovative with the error message :)
cognominal_ :) 17:22
I like to obfuscate using error messages 17:23
eiro s:g[.] = uc * # my naive attempt
anyone so tell me how to write it ?
cognominal_ to write what? 17:24
GlitchMr Replace every letter with it's uppercase version?
.uc
its*
masak rn: $_ = 'abc'; s:g[.] .= uc; .say
p6eval niecza v22-14-g136ddcf: OUTPUT«ABC␤»
..rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Missing assignment operator␤at /tmp/BdVdBKjSry:1␤»
PerlJam r: $_ = 'abc'; s:g[.] = uc; .say 17:26
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'uc' will never work with no arguments (line 1)␤ Expected: :(Cool $s)␤»
PerlJam r: $_ = 'abc'; s:g[.] = uc($/); .say 17:27
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«ABC␤»
PerlJam I guess rakudo doesn't grok .= in that position?
eiro what if i want to launch a function there ? 17:28
PerlJam eiro: What do you mean? What do you think uc is ?
eiro s/./f $&/ge # that's what i want to do 17:30
17:30 adu left
eiro f is a complex translation, not just uc 17:30
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PerlJam eiro: the complexity of the function doesn't matter to s/// 17:32
eiro sure. i'm just trying to figure out how to translate the match by the image of itself through f 17:33
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eiro as i said: the perl5 code would be s/./f $&/ge 17:33
or s/(.)/f $1/ge 17:34
PerlJam eiro: s:g[.] = f($/); # perl 6
eiro but $/ is a hash. isn't it ? 17:35
cognominal_ it is a match
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PerlJam eiro: if it makes you feel better ... s:g[.] = f(~$/); 17:36
cognominal_ it has the role Associative and Positional
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PerlJam (or maybe you find $/.Str more self documenting?) 17:36
cognominal_ so what you do with it depends on what you want
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eiro i saw Type/Match.Str but i have to admit i'm confused with it for now 17:38
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eiro i mean: $ is a scalar but it also seems to be a hash ... 17:38
cognominal_ eiro, I seem to be cast back in a thread we know both too well 17:39
happily unkonwn from #perl6
a little knowledge is dangerous... 17:40
PerlJam I was thinking that there was too must cogitation and too little trust-and-try-it.
s/must/much/
cognominal_ r: Match.^roles 17:41
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: ( no output )
cognominal_ r: sat Match.^roles
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Undefined routine '&sat' called (line 1)␤»
cognominal_ r: say Match.^roles 17:42
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«␤»
cognominal_ hum
flussence yay, got SCGI to work!
cognominal_ According to S02, I think Match.^roles should be Positional Associative 17:45
eiro cognominal_, i know that. but as you can see: i'm here :) 17:46
tadzik flussence: what were the problems with Bailador, btw? 17:47
cognominal_ anyway, my point to Eiro, is that you can get many information thru a match using $/.list $/.hash $/.Str 17:48
flussence tadzik: Bailador.pm line 15 was complaining about an undefined string, then it tried loading templates from /views instead of `pwd`/views 17:50
tadzik flussence: 17:51
oh
you need Bailador::import
that's due to rakudobug
like in tests :)
flussence ah
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flussence ok, time to abandon plan E and try that again. I don't feel like writing my own URL code :) 17:53
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[Coke] given: QAST::Var.new( :name<lexpad>, :scope<lexical>, :decl<var>); 18:00
if I'm in a normal nqp function that has that in the QAST that spawned it, how can I get at that lexical 18:01
?
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masak tadzik: what would it take for Bailador::import to go away, ooc? 18:01
tadzik masak: import() being called automatically 18:02
arnsholt [Coke]: If it's like PAST, just without the :decl I think
tadzik masak: essentially, Bailador needs caller()'s pwd() in use time
[Coke] arnsholt: so, drop the decl... and then? sub stuff {} { ... how to get at lexpad here? } 18:03
masak tadzik: do any of the synopses specify that behavior?
tadzik masak: I think so
masak import() being called automatically, I mean.
PerlJam [Coke]: Not to be the second clock that makes you not know the time, but I thought there was a find_lexical() or something you could call. 18:04
[Coke] nqp/docs-opcode.txt has no lexical. 18:05
arnsholt [Coke]: I'm not sure what you want. You're building the AST, right?
[Coke] yes. and then later the AST calls out to functions writen in nqp. 18:06
*written
[Coke] finds pir::find_lex
arnsholt Oh, you want to access a lexical variable from part of your runtime code?
I'm not sure you can do that. The runtime code isn't inside the lexical scope the var is declared in, after all 18:07
[Coke] one of the many things that "used to work". :) 18:08
arnsholt Really?
[Coke] sees I'm already using find_dynamic_lex - perhaps it's the :decl<var> that was killing me.
arnsholt 'Cause I'd think you had to use dynamic variables for that 18:09
[Coke] even debugging this is painful: > set a 3
Null PMC access in get_pmc_keyed()
arnsholt: I am translating code from parrot-nqp to nqp
(now, where is that Null PMC errr...) 18:10
jnthn [Coke]: I'm tied up with doing dinner at the moment, but will try and help you afterwards. 18:11
[Coke] jnthn: I appreciate that. I am making slow and steady progress, but emphasis on teh slow. :)
[Coke] will be on and offline for a bit. 18:23
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jnthn
.oO( quantum [Coke] - simultaneously on and offline )
 18:31
[Coke]: Looking for a lexical in the dynamic scope is find_dynamic_lex. 18:33
Hm, there's no nqp:: op for it yet
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diakopter masak: I'm not sure what you mean by "sensible foundation". What other option is there? 18:45
dalek p: 6f5ea29 | jnthn++ | src/QAST/Operations.nqp:
Add nqp:: ops for runtime variable lookup.

If you're building a QAST tree up, QAST::Var is just fine. But for lookups where we don't know what we want until runtime, or to write in NQP code, these are useful.		 18:47
p: e4e732c | jnthn++ | src/stage0/ (9 files):
Update bootstrap.
p: 8c8d5ea | jnthn++ | src/QRegex/ (3 files):
Use nqp::getlexdyn in place of pir:: op.
jnthn [Coke]: With latest NQP you can use nqp::getlexdyn('foo') to do what you're after. If you don't want to update for now, the pir variant will do it. 18:48
18:48 cognominal left
PerlJam Coke++ and jnhtn++ 18:48
that's some nice synergy there (not to be too buzz-wordy)
masak diakopter: mutexes? that thing Java does, with "synchronized"? Go channels? ithreads? 18:50
18:57 cognominal joined
jnthn Grr. I managed to do the generic NFA stuff in such a way that if I use it in NQP I get bootstrap phases coupled. 18:58
masak :/ 18:59
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jnthn At least fixing it shouldn't be as hard as doing it in the first place... 18:59
flussence argh, Template::Mojo is eating leading indent space on the first line after a ^%.*$ and ruining my neat output. I have to fix this! 19:02
19:03 adu left, not_gerd joined
tadzik please do! 19:03
not_gerd r: role Foo { has $.foo }; class Bar does Foo { submethod BUILD(:$!foo) {} }
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Attribute $!foo not declared in class Bar␤at /tmp/mjBJp_yiFz:1␤»
19:03 jeffreykegler left
not_gerd what's the correct way to initialize a role's attributes? 19:03
diakopter masak: but a mutex just uses CAS under the covers 19:12
masak: There is a concurrency Synopsis 19:13
TimToady pointed me to it
flussence tadzik: pull request sent in 3... 2... 1... 19:14
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masak diakopter: there is. it's one of the more liquid one. Pugs implements some of it, I believe, but not much. 19:19
jnthn not_gerd: There's no way that I find especially satisfying tbh. If you don't need to control the initialization explicitly then the default constructor/bless/etc. cycle will do the right thing. Otherwise there's only afaik having some method in the role to do it.
19:19 not_gerd left
jnthn TimToady: See not_gerd++ question; curious if we have a better answer that I'm not aware of. Or if we can find a better answer ;) 19:19
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not_gerd jnthn: thanks 19:20
diakopter masak: so, I don't see how your suggestion of "synchronized"? Go channels? ithreads? has anything to do with what I said 19:21
I wasn't asking about general concurrency.
at all.
I thought my question was specific enough
not_gerd has problems with his Irssi after cygwin update 19:22
diakopter (both claims/questions)
not_gerd jnthn: I'll think about how to best factor my code and leave to fix my setup
jnthn TimToady: As a datapoint, afaict, it'd not be horribly hard for me to arrange so that the BUILD submethods of composed roles are also called. It'd be something specific to construction time rather than a general mechanism in terms of roles/submethods, which feels sort of a special case, but hey, it's uppercase...
not_gerd good night, #perl6
jnthn o/, not_gerd.
19:23 not_gerd left 19:26 GlitchMr left, GlitchMr joined
rurban not_gerd: it's the perl update. You can install the old perl manually, and the new perl manually afterwards to keep irssi working. 19:28
dalek p: 346be83 | jnthn++ | t/nqp/66-pararole.t:
Remove debugging code in a test.
p: 91543c1 | jnthn++ | t/nqp/66-pararole.t:
Test for role/mixin/grammar/LTM interaction.
TimToady r: role Foo { has $.foo }; class Bar does Foo { }; my $b = Bar.new: Foo{ :foo(42) }; say $b.perl; 19:29
p6eval rakudo 3619d7: OUTPUT«Default constructor only takes named arguments␤ in method new at src/gen/CORE.setting:707␤ in block at /tmp/vJ7TWDEHbG:1␤␤»
TimToady you're supposed to be able to pass a WHENCE to do that
jnthn Hm, I now have a patch that makes the NQP test suite run in 36s instead of the 23s it ran in before... 19:30
TimToady: nyi, though I wasn't aware that'd work out for roles 19:31
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jnthn TimToady: It doesn't answer the "what if a role wants to do some of its own initialization work" very well though. 19:31
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TimToady well, one can put a default initializer on an attribute, at least 19:32
jnthn I think that bit works already.
It's more if you want to do more interesting logic, like a BUILD submethod allows.
TimToady I'm thinking we need something special that we can put after = that says to take the appropriate arg from BUILDs args
BUILD's rather
jnthn Even if we do that, I suspect people will still in some cases hunger for a BUILD-y thing in roles. 19:33
We can always say "module space!" for that, mind.
TimToady something in the role to say that BUILD is allowed to manage it
well, we've conjectured COMPOSE phasers before 19:34
jnthn Well, but a role's BUILD-y logic probably belongs int he role...
*in the
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TimToady anyway, a WHENCE is supposed to allow you to direct a packet of initial values to any typed subpart of the current object 19:36
jnthn *nod*
I agree that should be made to work.
TimToady though to the first approximation we want flat named args to be useful too, when the user doesn't want to be aware of the current factoring of the objects in question 19:37
so an object's initialization oughta be able to deal with that somehow; whether that means a role's private attrs are visible in BUILD or not is not clear to me 19:38
diakopter no one has a comment on whether the language needs a CAS built-in for lvalues? 19:39
jnthn diakopter: To the degree that they're scalar containers, it's perhaps the scalar container that needs to have it... 19:40
diakopter okay. I meant things like array and hash slots in addition to scalars
jnthn TimToady: To clarify what I'm suggesting: I don't think the role's attrs should be visible in the class. I'm suggesting that a role can have a BUILD method too, and we arrange to call it *in addition* to any BUILD submethod in the class.
diakopter: True, though that only applies in the binding case. 19:41
TimToady diakopter: it seems like more of a "primitive" concept than a "built-in" to me; it's not clear to me where this would show up in the user view
jnthn diakopter: (Since array and hash values are scalar containers)
(in the non-native case)
er, I meant s/method/submethod/ 19:42
diakopter TimToady: in order to implement a lock on an object, the user could have an attribute that toggles between zero and one. A thread that wished to obtain the lock requests to toggle it from 0 to 1. 19:43
The thread releases the lock by toggling it back to 0
the CAS attempt from 0 to 1 fails if it's already 1
and signifies that by returning what was there previously - 1
all mutexes/atomic counters/monitors/locks/synchronization can be built on that primitive 19:44
and lock-free data structures in particular need such a thing, definitively 19:45
though some can get by with just atomic increment/decrement (which would also be nice)
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pmurias can we portably support CAS? 19:46
TimToady you just said that lock-free data structures need locks
diakopter lock-free data structure means no global lock on the whole object. All of them still have locks at some much smaller level
in the form of CAS - a CPU core claims ownership of a memory location while it tests/updates it 19:47
pmurias: if the VM can support it, yes :)
TimToady if the CPU supports *any* form of locking you can implement CAS, but it might not be efficient :)
diakopter you're right 19:48
jnthn CPUs often provide something CAS-ish.
TimToady we can put the bit right next to the taint bit that no one implements yet... 19:49
diakopter jnthn: explain more? how does a hash slot need to be bound but a scalar just needs assigned
I seem to have forgotten what binding is, for the 8th time or so 19:50
(or else I would be able to understand) 19:51
TimToady binding is just copying a pointer rather than a value
so you can't bind something to a native location, but you can assign to it
jnthn diakopter: %h<a> = 42; # really boils down to looking up %h<a>, which gives you the scalar, and then = assigns the value into it.
diakopter ah yes. now I remember; thanks :) 19:52
TimToady in a compact array, you can assign to elements, but you can't bind them
diakopter so to CAS on a hash value would be a CAS on its scalar
TimToady CAS on a native would have to be handled differently than CAS on something that can carry its own bit around 19:53
diakopter I don't get what this bit would be for
TimToady it's your 0 or 1 bit you were just talking about
masak .oO( oh, it's a 0 or 1 bit! ) :P 19:54
jnthn TimToady: You don't use the bit for the lock, you substitute the value itself.
TimToady: diakopter was just saying how you'd implement a crappy mutex in terms of CAS.
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jnthn TimToady: More typically you use it as a kind of optimistic concurrency. 19:55
flussence masak: well, the alternative's a signed int1...
jnthn Build a new version of the thing, and put it into place conditional on nobody else having done so.
TimToady well, I'm talking about how you would *use* that, so apples and oranges
diakopter lunch; bbiab &
jnthn Ah :)
TimToady I'm just assuming that an "attribute" that is that important warrants a bit in the header 19:56
like taint
jnthn discovers one reason having the quote language be the same as the main language causes a little fun... 20:00
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TimToady by definition it can't be "the same" 20:01
so I'm not sure what you mean
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jnthn TimToady: As in, same grammar. 20:01
TimToady: Regex is a separate grammar, but quotes are in with the main language grammar. 20:02
TimToady well, yes, up till the first mixin
then it's merely a derived grammar 20:03
jnthn In STD there's a separate Q.
Also Rakudo doesn't mix in starter/stopper, it does them out of contextuals.
TimToady ah, yes, you mean rakudo doesn't start with a Q
jnthn Yeah.
How much of a problem do you consider that? 20:04
jnthn is trying to find a way to improve quoting stuff that makes everybody happy...
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TimToady contextuals can get out of sync with the "current language" 20:04
so when possible it's better that the current language be defined by the current type 20:05
for instance, suppose we make some way of naming a quote language
wheneve you invoke that quote language, you'd have to remember to reinstante the contextuals as well
jnthn Hm, true. 20:06
TimToady if it's baked into the cursor type, it's not a problem
contextuals also make it difficult to "braid" languages
though admitedly STD is doing the braiding itself with a contextual at the moment 20:07
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TimToady but that's just a way of naming languages to get back to a certain language 20:07
actually defining a given language using contextuals will tend to interfere with that 20:08
flussence tadzik: ooc, is there any obvious way to do this sort of thing with Bailador (workingly)? gist.github.com/3961161
TimToady Perl 6 really, really wants to know exactly what language something is at every point, and if there are parts of the definition floating around outside the cursor, it can lose track
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jnthn OK, makes sense. 20:09
jnthn guesses this means "be more STD-ish"
TimToady it's just a specific case of the P6 design philosophy of figuring out everywhere P5 hung things on the wrong peg, and hanging things on the right peg instead 20:10
P5 didn't even have the contextuals peg, so there's a little bit of temptation to overuse them now 20:12
and using them for two interleaved purposes will have about as good a result is nesting source filters in P5 20:13
s/is/as/
s/interleaved/interleaved and related/
it's fine to interleave orthogonal purposes, I think
masak .oO( weaving orthogonal purposes ) 20:14
jnthn TimToady: OK. Supposing I do split out Q and do things STD-like, is caching quoting langauges OK to avoid doing the mixins every single time? 20:15
TimToady or to look at it another way, if a language definition is a kind of continuation, that contuation doesn't capture contextuals properly
eiro perl6 powered blog: first render: ramirez.u-strasbg.fr:5000/ 20:17
jnthn e.g. the first time we see the Q:qq language, we derive it, then cache the derived type for future use?
TimToady it might have to be a per-parent-language cache in some cases
unless we elevate it to the level of a braid
otoh, maybe some languages need to be distinguised by being the peg on which a braid hangs 20:18
that is, instead of %*LANG being a pure contextual, it'd be something you'd look up based on the current language's pedigree somehow 20:19
maybe it's just a lookup method for a particular braid member 20:20
jnthn TimToady: OK. I just know we're gonna need to cache it somehow for performance to not suck.
TimToady well, methods to parent types are supposed to be fast :)
jnthn Yes, the bit I'm worrying about is all the derived langauges. :) 20:21
TimToady so maybe $cursor.braidQ returns Q
jnthn (creating one has a bit of cost)
flussence hm, I fixed the previous gist so it works, but it *looks* suboptimal...
TimToady and .braidqq returns the cached qq
modulo a bikeshed or two
jnthn So long as the bikeshed has polka dots, I don't care... 20:22
TimToady I can probably prototype this in STD, and it might even make STD run faster
jnthn eiro: for ( %tree.kv ) -> $link is copy, $child {
eiro: Doesn't need the parens around %tree.kv
eiro: And to avoid needing is copy then consider: 20:23
$link ~~ s/^data\///;
my $label = $link.split('/').pop;
instead being
my $label = $link.subst(/^data/, '').split('/').pop;
oh 20:24
TimToady .[*-1] maybe
jnthn but $link gets re-used in a few places
Well, can always put the diddled version in another variable :)
TimToady I wouldn't bank on split returning a mutable
eiro github.com/Kivutar/hyde/blob/maste...anslate.p6
jnthn, the article isn't mine (it's kivutar one) but yes: i'll tell him) 20:25
masak lol, I blogged! \o/ strangelyconsistent.org/blog/sweet-ports 20:27
(yes, it's been a while)
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pmurias I'm unsure how to map the nqp calling convention to js, I'm considering named_as_object,positional1,positional2,... 20:27
jnthn pmurias: Maybe wants to be something capture-ish 20:28
pmurias Maybe? 20:30
jnthn tadzik: Any idea why github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/...dbb1101c03 hasn't been reflected on modules.perl6.org?
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jnthn pmurias: One other way is to pass everything positional and pass as the first thing a "descriptor" 20:31
masak spider-mario! \o/
spider-mario hi there \o/
jnthn pmurias: the descriptor saying which are positional and which are named and including the names
pmurias: And the descriptor is static (just made at startup)
pmurias jnthn: that's what I'm considering
but with the descriptor being an object containing the named arguments 20:32
jnthn: do we care about the order of the named arguments?
eiro bonsoir #perl6 :) 20:33
jnthn pmurias: But if you put the named arguments into the descriptor then it's not static... 20:34
pmurias: Rakudo doesn't preserve the order of named args, no
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pmurias jnthn: I think v8 packs hashmaps into compact objects 20:35
when JITing code
jnthn pmurias: Then it's probably less of an issue but potentially you can get away with one less object per call.
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dalek p: 5e80295 | jnthn++ | src/ (2 files):
A little re-working on generic NFA storage.

This means we can do them in a way that doesn't end up with different NQP bootstrap layers ending up linked.		 20:37
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pmurias jnthn: I think I'll implement named arguments in a simple way for now, and then benchmark it later 20:48
jnthn pmurias: +1 20:49
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[Coke] upgrades nqp 21:16
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cognominal TimToady, you can't bind to native because they can end up in processor registers? 21:20
masak cognominal: no, because they lack the "shell" that you'd normally bind to. what we call a "container", sometimes. 21:22
cognominal: the thing associated with a variable, array element, etc, that the value resides in.
"scalar container", even. 21:23
[Coke] jnthn: building nqp now segfaults. :P 21:25
jnthn Um. 21:26
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jnthn realclean and re-Configure? 21:26
cognominal so a fortiori, when within a register they don't have such a "container" 21:27
cognominal like to be right even if it si for the edge case :) 21:28
[Coke] jnthn: git rb ; git clean -xdf ; perl Configure.pl --prefix=$HOME/bird
dies with:
make: *** [src/stage1/QASTNode.pbc] Segmentation fault: 11
This is Parrot version 4.9.0-devel built for i386-darwin 21:29
pmurias cognominal: when out of a register they don't have such a container too 21:30
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[Coke] backtrace: gist.github.com/3961694 21:33
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jnthn [Coke]: Sadly, a segfault there tells me little :( 21:33
[Coke] will try with --gen-parrot :| 21:34
jnthn I struggle to imagine anything that's changed recently that could induce segfaults. 21:35
...in NQP.
This is nqp version 2012.10-69-g5e80295 built on parrot 4.4.0 revision RELEASE_4_4_0
[Coke] arg. running with --gen-parrot in nqp triggers the parrot init::manifest bug randal was complaining about. 21:36
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japhb_ [Coke], I repeat the recommendation I gave to Randal. Take off and nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure. ;-) 21:42
diakopter [Coke]: think it runs make clean or realclean; perhaps parrot's make clean is blowing that file 21:44
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japhb_ --gen-parrot really doesn't like it when tools/build/PARROT_REVISION rewinds 21:44
You want to go down the "making a new clone of parrot" code path, not the "updating an existing clone of parrot" path 21:45
japhb_ has not had the spare tuits to investigate and fix that bug. :-/ 21:47
diakopter I suspect make clean/realclean
in parrot 21:48
japhb_ yeah.
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japhb_ Probably wants to do the equivalent of 'git fetch; make clean; git checkout $PARROT_REVISION; make realclean; perl Configure.pl; make; make install' 21:49
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japhb_ Actually I guess that wouldn't work. Hmmm. 21:51
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japhb_ Probably wants to do the equivalent of 'git fetch; make realclean; git checkout $PARROT_REVISION; perl Configure.pl; make realclean; perl Configure.pl; make; make install' 21:52
Wasteful, but should handle 'make realclean' changing meaning before and after checking out a new $PARROT_REVISION 21:53
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masak 'night, #perl6 22:09
japhb_ o/ 22:10
rindolf masak: night. 22:13
phenny rindolf: 25 Oct 04:54Z <azawawi> tell rindolf you werent getting any input because of a bug in new commits of HTTP::Easy
rindolf phenny: thanks.
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rindolf phenny: tell azawawi OK, I understand now - regarding HTTP::Easy. 22:13
phenny rindolf: I'll pass that on when azawawi is around.
rindolf phenny++
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tadzik jnthn: nope 23:07
I'm more curious why it's not on feather.perl6.nl/~sergot/modules/ :)
cronjobs..
jnthn tadzik: We fixed it.
tadzik: masak++ noticed I'd put the private github URL in source-url, not the public one
tadzik a-ha 23:08
jnthn So, JSON::Path is now on modules.perl6.org \o/
tadzik but Test::Harness is also not thhere
rindolf jnthn: awesome.
tadzik oh, it is
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jnthn 'night o/ 23:16
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