»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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mikemol jnthn: Gah. Missed you again. 02:14
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Reini github.com/blog/1302-goodbye-uploads - so not really a CPAN alternative anymore. new plans 02:32
sorear argh 02:38
now how am I going to release niecza v25? 02:40
I guess I need to check the bootstrap files into git, and put the Windows standalone .zips on feather 02:42
skids What's to stop people from just creating a -dist repo and checking *balls into it? 02:43
popl "If this applies to you, we recommend using one of the many fantastic services that exist exactly for this purpose such as Amazon S3 / Amazon CloudFront." 02:48
Are they shills?
That's interesting, though. 02:50
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mikemol .window 2 03:02
dalek ast: fd42eb1 | coke++ | S05-modifier/perl5_0.t:
rakudo fudge
 03:14
kudo/nom: 78b53ac | coke++ | t/spectest.data:
run more tests.
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colomon LTA error: 03:48
rn: my %words = KeyBag.new; %words{"the"} = "green";
p6eval niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Unmatched key in Hash.LISTSTORE␤ at /tmp/V1lU00wC0A line 1 (mainline @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4208 (ANON @ 3) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 4209 (module-CORE @ 580) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecz…
..rakudo 779703: OUTPUT«Odd number of elements found where hash expected␤ in method STORE at src/gen/CORE.setting:6553␤ in block at /tmp/_Tvny9dl5w:1␤␤»
colomon rn: my %words := KeyBag.new; %words{"the"} = "green"; 03:49
p6eval niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot parse number: green␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1435 (die @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3539 (ANON @ 10) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 3541 (NumSyntax.str2num @ 5) ␤ at…
..rakudo 779703: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'Real'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Mu:U \v: Mu *%_)␤␤ in method Real at src/gen/CORE.setting:804␤ in method Real at src/gen/CORE.setting:2318␤ in sub infix:<>> at src/gen/CORE.setting:2825␤ in block at src/gen/CORE.setting:11823␤ in any at…
colomon second one, first one was just a typo.
:)
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dalek rl6-bench: 43ff984 | (Geoffrey Broadwell)++ | .gitignore:
Add /components and /results to .gitignore
 04:46
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dalek : f0eb6a9 | moritz++ | misc/perl6advent-2012/schedule:
[p6advent] take day 12, since there is no post from PerlJam yet
 05:14
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Woodi morning 05:28
moritz: IMO words doubled, paragraph 2, line 2... 05:29
moritz Woodi: thanks, fixed 05:30
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diakopter r: gist.github.com/4265098 # test the new gist 05:32
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/PGXYbtZvDA:1␤------> https⏏://gist.github.com/4265098 # test the ne␤ expecting any of:␤ argument list␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ st…
diakopter r: gist.github.com/4265098
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«44␤»
diakopter huh; still works
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Nom- Hey Guys... was curious if there's a way in the Perl6 syntax to extend an integer? 05:50
moritz Nom-: what do you mean by "extend"?
Nom- So I could (for example) do 1.to_words => "one"
moritz Nom-: not built in. We try to avoid languge-specific built-ins 05:51
I'm sure somebody is going to write a module for it eventually
Nom- Well, yeah, that's what I wanted to do... extend that integer type with some code... so I can't write just Perl6 to do this, it'd have to be an extension to Rakudo or whatever? 05:52
moritz Nom-: you can add methods to existing classes, but it is considered *very* bad style 05:54
r: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class Int { method english() { 'one' } }; say 4.english 05:55
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«one␤»
moritz it's better to just export a subroutine that does what you want
Nom- Yeah, but sometimes you can enable some very useful functionality by doing it :) 05:58
moritz in ruby, monkey patching is quite popular. And then two different libraries added incompatible json methods to the same classes, and BOOM
Nom-: yes, but you can also enable very useful functionality by other means
japhb moritz, In Ruby, that problem is all over the damn place.
moritz Nom-: in particular, you can only rely on the monkey-patched methods being there when you've loaded the module that does the monkey-patching 05:59
japhb Getting just the right versions of Ruby libraries to work together is a massive pain -- which they "solved" by writing big bundling systems.
moritz Nom-: and if you've loaded the module that does the monkey patching, you could just as well import a subroutine from it
Nom- Yes, but that'd change the syntax right? 06:00
moritz yes
Nom- So if you were specifically going for that syntax, then monkey patching is the only option
moritz yes
Nom- Which I kind of expected, was just wondering if it was possible :)
moritz so don't go specifically for that syntax
japhb Nom-, while Perl 6 is deeply OO, that doesn't mean we insist all code written in Perl 6 look like method calls. :-)
moritz and multi subs give you the same kind of power that method dispatch gives you
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moritz github.com/blog/1302-goodbye-uploads # EEKS 06:44
both rakudo and star rely on github uploads for their releases
sorear moritz: And niecza. 06:45
moritz sorear: right
this is annoying, because any other upload service will have permissions separate from github 06:46
sorear when Rakudo decides where they are moving, I'd like to follow 06:57
Nom- Why not just tag a commit and provide the download from that? 07:04
Or am I missing something.
sorear Nom-: niecza does precompiled binary releases 07:07
which are 1.5MB zip files
Nom- Ah right, yeah.. binaries are a problem 07:08
Seems weird that Github would do that... 07:09
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noggle_ uploads are PAIN! 07:27
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moritz noggle: not having them is a pain 07:50
LoRe noggle: just poked fun at the blog post 08:05
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tadzik good morning #perl6 08:40
sorear o/ tadzik
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FROGGS__ morning 08:46
moritz \o 08:49
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jnthn morning o/ 09:12
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felher Pokemon style :) 09:32
jnthn
.oO( I thought it was all about Gangnam style these days... )
 09:34
moritz well, I'm a bit old-fashioned 09:35
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cedrvint_ hello #perl6 09:36
moritz++ # post about X
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cedrvint_ rn: sub foo { die }; foo; CATCH { when * { say 'catched' } } 09:37
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«␤ in sub foo at /tmp/YsgaDngZle:1␤ in block at /tmp/YsgaDngZle:1␤␤»
..niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«catched␤»
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cedrvint_ hum, why this doesn't work with Rakudo? 09:38
r: { sub foo { die }; foo; CATCH { when * { say 'catched' } } }
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«catched␤»
cedrvint_ it looks as if a file has no lexical scope wrt exceptions 09:39
moritz that's weird
btw the past tense of "catch" is "caught" 09:40
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cedrvint_ my english is borked :) 09:40
moritz and the Borg speak English :-) 09:41
jnthn Hm, tht first example really shoulda cutch the exception :) 09:42
Probably deserves an RT
FROGGS__
.oO( resistance is futile )
 09:43
cedrvint_ FROGGS__: wow! this is the (new) title of my Advent article ("Formula: resistance is futile") 09:44
FROGGS__: are you a precog ? ;)
FROGGS__ no, always slept in professor trelawsneys classes ;o) 09:45
moritz FROGGS__ i just a prefrog :-) 09:46
sorear moritz is a tadpole. "tadzik, however, is more than a tad..." 09:50
cedrvint_ submits rakudobug
tadzik hehe
moritz :-) 09:52
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moritz has written sub { sub { 1 } } in production Perl 5 code today :-) 10:07
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grondilu what does 'PMC' stands for in "Null PMC access in find_method('subst')"? 10:09
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moritz Parrot Magical Cookie 10:20
parrot's idea of an object 10:21
jnthn Or really any heap-allocated thing. 10:23
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moritz aren't strings heap-allocated and non-PMCs? 10:42
jnthn Ah, true 10:43
I was thinking of arrays and hashes and so forth
moritz but those are PMCs too, no? 10:44
jnthn yes.
moritz and objects :-)
ah well, never mind my ramblings
jnthn or mine :)
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dalek pan style="color: #395be5">perl6-examples: ae7dbb3 | (L. Grondin)++ | rosalind/ctbl-grondilu.pl:
[rosalind] CTBL
 11:06
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grondilu with monkey typing, I can augment classes but how can I augment roles? 12:23
jnthn You can't.
Roles are immutable. End of story. 12:24
Note that augmenting a role would NOT add methods to any classes that compose the role. 12:25
Even if it were possible.
grondilu ok 12:26
rn: use MONKEY_TYPING; augment class Range { method encode(Int $n is copy) { gather while $n > 0 { take self[$n mod self.elems]; $n div= self.elems } } }; say ("a".."i").encode: 2012
p6eval rakudo 78b53a, niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«f h g c␤»
jnthn So even if we put aside "the spec says roles are immutable" it'd still be fairly useless or at the very least confusing... 12:27
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pmichaud (github downloads) I suppose we could put the tarballs on the rakudo.org server, although I'd be a bit concerned about bandwidth usage 13:06
we could certainly start that way and see if it's a problem
moritz you can get a bandwidth estimate by looking at the github download pages, and sum up the number of downloads 13:09
rakudo-star-2012.09.msi is nearly 10MB and had nearly 4k downloads => 40GB traffic from that file
wordpress.org/extend/plugins/free-cdn/ # nice idea, maybe we can use that too? 13:11
pmichaud let me see what the bandwidth usage has been on my server... 40GB doesn't sound too bad 13:13
timotimo interesting, so it's a research project? 13:17
and that means you can use it for free?
pretty neat
that way you get service for free and they get research data for ... almost free :)
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pmichaud looks like my server is currently serving 40GB/month, so adding rakudo star downloads would effectively double that. (more) 13:28
but since I have a 2TB/month limit, I think I'd be safe for a while :)
moritz yes, sounds good :-) 13:29
if we exceed that, I can also ask my current employer if they are willing to host open source stuff
jnthn Sounds like a fine solution for the time being
moritz++
er
pmichaud++ even :)
but moritz always deserves karma anyways :) 13:30
moritz they hinted that might be a possiblity in my first interview
pmichaud++ indeed
pmichaud I'll get copies of the existing tarballs downloaded onto the server 13:31
I'll be a little sad to lose the download statistics, though. 13:32
maybe I can set something up for that on the server too.
rindolf I'd like to thank all of you for the Perl 6 Advent calendar of this year. 13:35
moritz bows 13:36
speaking of which: pmichaud, do you happen to want to take day 24?
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timotimo rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=77074 - if this is considered a bug, how do the lazyness semantics have to work in order for this to be fixed? o_O 13:39
pmichaud rakudo.org/downloads/star/ 13:40
timotimo easy fix: let the webserver download the corresponding file from github parallel to the user downloading it from rakudo.org
voila: instant correct download statistics
pmichaud timotimo: ...except github is getting rid of their downloads section 13:42
(or I'm not understanding what you wrote)
timotimo oh, that was the missing part
didn't know about that
pmichaud that's the whole reason for the move in the first place :-)
I think RT #77074 is wrong in terms of what it expects. 13:43
the first @in[1] should definitely be 2, not 20
because array assignment is mostly eager
I think it could be closed as "not a bug" 13:44
timotimo i'll copypaste this irc snippet and close it, k?
jnthn my @out := @in.map({$_*=10;}); # this binding means we don't evaluate the map eagerly, since binding is not mostly eager 13:45
So yeah, think it's not a bug.
timotimo "rejected" is the right status for "not a bug"? 13:46
moritz yes
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pmichaud rakudo.org/downloads/rakudo/ 13:56
Now we just need a process for uploading tarballs to the server.
jnthn pmichaud: The MSIs seem to be missing from there? 13:57
oh, wait...you did rakudo, not star :)
pmichaud rakudo.org/downloads/star/ 13:58
13:40 <pmichaud> rakudo.org/downloads/star/
jnthn ah, yes
Sorry, a bit bogged down prep'ing for next ocuple of days teaching, so only half following :) 13:59
pmichaud I guess we'll just manage public ssh keys on the server and handle it via scp
(day 24) I'll need a day to think about it. 14:03
since I'm having to travel Dec 20-Dec 23, I'd be happy if someone else wanted to take 12/24 :-) 14:04
moritz so far we haven't had trouble filling the slots
pmichaud moritz++
cedrvint r: ("A" ... "AA").say 14:05
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z AA␤»
cedrvint r: ("B" ... "AA").say
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«Decrement out of range␤ in method Str at src/gen/CORE.setting:10198␤ in method Stringy at src/gen/CORE.setting:825␤ in sub infix:<eq> at src/gen/CORE.setting:1137␤ in method ACCEPTS at src/gen/CORE.setting:3806␤ in block at src/gen/CORE.setting:12137␤ in blo…
cedrvint ^ is it a bug? 14:06
moritz no
hm
well, not sure
infix:<...> uses infix:<cmp> to compare the end points, but .chars()-first comparison for end detection, or some such 14:07
I'm not sure what the spec says
pmichaud S03: For functions deduced when there is only one value on the left, the final value is used to determine whether *.succ or *.pred is more appropriate. The two values are compared with cmp to determine the direction of the progression. 14:08
since 'B' cmp 'AA' is Decrease, the progression is decrease. 14:09
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cedrvint r: "B" cmp "AA" 14:09
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: ( no output )
cedrvint r: ("B" cmp "AA").say
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«Decrease␤»
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cedrvint r: ("A" cmp "AA").say 14:09
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«Increase␤»
pmichaud afk, kid ride to school
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cedrvint moritz, pmichaud: thanks! 14:10
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Woodi maybe torrenting perl6 packballs be possible ? 15:00
moritz possible, but inconvenient 15:02
Woodi anyway, looking on star download stats it looks once per year, around summer, stats spikes... it is features related or some other reason can be ?
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jnthn Woodi: YAPC 15:04
Woodi moritz: oo... they force ppls to do such tings there ?
err, /moritz/jnthn/ 15:05
jnthn Woodi: Did you mean me? But no, not force at all. Just that a bunch of folks coming to Perl 6 talks may inspire them to go download things and try it out :)
It may well not be all of it, just a guess :)
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Woodi YM(ore)PCs would be nice :) 15:07
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Woodi would be good to find (few) thing(s) where using Perl6 will be irrepleceable or choice #1 for everyone :) 15:20
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Su-Shee it will be for "everything with data", if placed properly into this realm. 15:21
hello everyone.
Woodi o/ Su-Shee :)
first what comes to mind is using grammars for replace text in files when sed s/a/b/g is to simple... 15:23
like personalized spam mails maybe :) 15:24
skids grammars will probably be one of the stronger distinguishing features, yes, but not quite for that simple a task.
Woodi except it is evil and needs good performance :)
Su-Shee I actually mean the combination of new regexes, grammars, operators and the way unicode etc. is handled. that makes it uniquely nice to handle "data". 15:25
cognominal need to correlate download and jnthn trips over the world :)
Su-Shee plus the usal density, whipuptitude and conciseness of perl in general..
cognominal *rakudo downloads 15:26
skids trips over the world every day. starting with the cat.
Woodi so we need to hijack mass business raportings from raw data... 15:29
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colomon r: my $set = set 1, 2, 3; my $set2 = 2, 4, 6; say $set ∩ $set2; 16:06
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/AsbAGyGu7a:1␤------> t 1, 2, 3; my $set2 = 2, 4, 6; say $set ⏏∩ $set2;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ …
colomon nr: my $set = set 1, 2, 3; my $set2 = 2, 4, 6; say $set ∩ $set2;
p6eval niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot coerce 2 to a Set; use set(2) to create a one-element set␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 1435 (die @ 5) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 2090 (to-set @ 6) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting …
..rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/TbXrOkWvQm:1␤------> t 1, 2, 3; my $set2 = 2, 4, 6; say $set ⏏∩ $set2;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ …
colomon nr: my $set = set 1, 2, 3; my $set2 = set 2, 4, 6; say $set ∩ $set2;
p6eval niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«set(2)␤»
..rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/4WNIdKQWaz:1␤------> 2, 3; my $set2 = set 2, 4, 6; say $set ⏏∩ $set2;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ …
colomon nr: my $set = set 1, 2, 3; my $set2 = set 2, 4, 6; say $set (&) $set2; 16:07
p6eval niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«set(2)␤»
..rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/uYnjz77nX6:1␤------> 2, 3; my $set2 = set 2, 4, 6; say $set ⏏(&) $set2;␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ …
colomon rakudo doesn't even have the Texas set operators?
TimToady used to, I think 16:08
moritz rakudo currently doesn't have any set operators 16:09
colomon this presents some difficulties with the advent post I am working on.
moritz well, mention that it's niecza-only 16:10
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colomon is starting to think he is going to have to hack on both niecza and rakudo to get the examples to work in both.... 16:10
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TimToady I wonder how rakudos setops got clobbered... 16:10
*do's
moritz they were simply never ported to nom 16:11
TimToady I'm pretty sure they were
moritz git log -p src/core/Set.pm # first mention of 'infix' is cfff0c802d14a2eacd5dde912da0155c162c2fa6 16:13
which is the "replace old files with nom files"
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sirrobert hi p6 16:13
moritz \o sirrobert 16:14
colomon moritz: I remember there was a technical reason why the non-ascii set operators wouldn't work, but is there any reason not to include the Texas variants? 16:19
moritz I don't think so 16:20
colomon okay, I'll add that to my list. :) 16:21
errr, I'll get off my ass and do it right now, actually. :) 16:22
moritz ++colomon
sirrobert in a string that looks like this: "this is my string\n\nand it has two newlines in it." 16:29
how do I match up to the two newlines?
here's a better string...
in a string that looks like this: "this is\nmy string\n\nand it has two newlines in it."
I want to catch single newlines, but not double... I can't seem to figure out how to write the grammar token 16:30
moritz (.*?)\n\n
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sirrobert well, I want to match it again after. It's a double-newline delimited text 16:30
moritz r: $_ = "this is\nmy string\n\nand it has two newlines in it."; /(.*?)\n\n/ and say $0
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«｢this is␤my string｣␤␤» 16:31
moritz sirrobert: .split("\n\n") ?
sirrobert moritz: yeah, that might work...
TimToady there should probably be a paras to go with lines
sirrobert moritz: I'm trying to parse a file with a grammar. It's entered as "plain text" (with light markup), and translated into HTML.
moritz sirrobert: IMHO there's nothing wrong with breaking up a text into chunks before parsing each chunk with a grammar 16:32
and if the delimiter can't appear inside the chunks, that's usually much simpler
TimToady (.*?)+ %% [\n\n+] or so maybe 16:33
sirrobert moritz: split into array, then run the grammar on each element of the array?
gist.github.com/4269302
that's what I'm currently using, btw.
moritz sirrobert: yes
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TimToady you probably want + on the second \n 16:34
sirrobert TimToady: yeah, that makes sense. What does the %% do?
TimToady since someone might put more than 2 newlines
sirrobert moritz: hmmm ok
TimToady makes the separator optional at the end 16:35
as opposed to %
sirrobert TimToady: what does % do? =)
TimToady what you want :)
sirrobert heh
TimToady splits on a separator 16:36
sirrobert ok
moritz you can also do something like token paragraph { [\N+ ]* % [\n <!before \n> ] }
TimToady can't use \N
sirrobert is [] negation?
TimToady has to match solitary \n
moritz sirrobert: [] is grouping
sirrobert moritz: whew... that's what I thought =) 16:37
TimToady [\N | \n<!before\n]+
er, *
bleah, need more coffee
moritz TimToady: but that gobbles up single trailing newlines
TimToady shouldn't it? 16:38
moritz if the grammar is supposed to evolve a bit, that might hurt
dunno
anyway, splitting is way easier :-) 16:39
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TimToady but doesn't compose into other grammars 16:39
moritz aye 16:40
sirrobert how do I do negation? the equivalent of [^x] in p5?
TimToady almost nothing in regex is the same as p5
sirrobert so I've found =) 16:41
that's why I don't know how to do negation ;)
TimToady which means that, even if you avoid reading all the other synopses, reading the first half of S05 is probably useful
sirrobert will go now
reading 16:42
moritz <-[ ... ]> is the negated character class
TimToady in specific, <-[x]> is what it is now
sirrobert moritz: makes sense now that I see it
TimToady oops, moritz beat me to the specific answer
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TimToady moritz++ noticed I could be construed as unconstructive before I noticed :) 16:43
moritz TimToady: speaking of unconstructive.. (sink observation upcoming)
sirrobert heh
colomon first attempt to add setops blows up Rakudo compile. 16:44
maximum recursion depth exceeded
current instr.: 'Stringy' pc 13 ((file unknown):436) (src/gen/CORE.setting:162)
called from Sub 'infix:<~>' pc 36 ((file unknown):693911056) (src/gen/CORE.setting:1125)
called from Sub 'Str' pc 83 ((file unknown):25876508) (src/gen/CORE.setting:822)
called from Sub 'Str' pc 11718 (src/gen/perl6-symboltable.pir:4276) (src/Perl6/World.pm:750)
moritz TimToady: some of the errors I fixed in the qast-sink-1 branch (in rakudo and in roast) were like try something(); sub something { for @values { die if /foo/ } }
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moritz 'for' is now lazy (in the branch), so &something returns a lazy list 16:45
so when it blows up, the try doesn't catch it
which surprises people, including me :-)
colomon: all multis in the setting need an explicit proto
colomon moritz: these are onlys 16:46
onlies?
moritz oh, and I think if you add operators to the setting, you need to also add them to src/Perl6/Grammar.pm
jnthn wonders if adding operators in the setting that aren't declared up front in the grammar works.
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colomon oh 16:46
moritz the fudging-the-grammar might have some bootstrappy issues
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jnthn Yeah, suggest adding them explicitly in Grammar.pm 16:47
colomon where?
moritz iirc the operators are roughly sorted by precedence 16:48
jnthn Yeah...just look for infix:sym<+> or something.
moritz so you can use that as a rough guideline
colomon yeah, just found it.
jnthn It may have worked at some point, but I suspect that the work I did to get us user-defined precedence levels and the correct leixcal scoping of them and unbust pre-comp...may have somehow regressed this aspect of things. 16:49
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TimToady masak, jnthn: the intent is that heredoc indent is a textual feature, not a shortcut for a run-time feature 16:51
yes it's harder, but STD does it that way (and so niecza, I think) 16:52
jnthn TimToady: That means...breaking the string up and indenting each piece of it separately and knowing not to if the piece in question doesn't contain a new line :/ 16:53
colomon TimToady: should infix:<∈> really be "chaining infix" in precedence?
jnthn I guess the AST already has it that was so it's "just" a bit more post-processing.
TimToady jnthn: only a textual newline
jnthn *way
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jnthn TimToady: textual as in the source? 16:53
TimToady yes 16:54
jnthn TimToady: It's a pain and I think it's too clever for it's own good. It's doable I guess.
TimToady it's what the user wants, not the implementor
jnthn As I user I like semantics I can easily grok
TimToady this is easy to grok
jnthn As a teacher I like semantics I can easily explain
"It forms the string and does what indent would do" is easy.
TimToady there's an artificial left boundard at that point 16:55
just move the line over
*boundary
what you see is what you get, if you just moved the text over to the left margin
jnthn Hm, true
moritz is that boundary determined by the indention of the heredoc terminator, or by the left border of the content?
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TimToady it's visually the right thing to do 16:55
terminator
heredoc indent is only for not forcing the user to outdent heredocs like you have to do in p5 16:56
or however you say that in English 16:57
it's an aid to formatting code, is all
colomon rakudo compile taking a very long time now....
and the same error as before. :( 16:58
TimToady and it's easy enough to call indent explicitly if you really want the run-time semantics
colomon oh! whoops.... 16:59
jnthn colomon: argh, I thought you were only going to add the texas ones
colomon jnthn: I was
but I called one of the non-defined, non-Texas ones.
blows up the compile very nicely
TimToady looks forward to the day when the setting can be written in Perl 6 :P
jnthn Yeah, well, every time I spend a few hours hunting down setting circularity sawing issues and then the rest of the day fixing them, it's a day that coulda been spent on something user-facing... 17:00
colomon > 4 (elem) set 1, 2, 3 17:08
False
> 4 (elem) set 1, 2, 3, 4
True
jnthn \o/
colomon++
Woodi do heredocs can be taken from file ? :) I know files are considered not-here but want it becouse of marketing simplicity...
colomon do rakudo setting bugs always blow things up, or is something about doing things which are valid p6 but not supported by rakudo? 17:09
TimToady jnthn: well, I have a great deal of sympathy and/or empathy with the vicarious sufferings of implementors, but the lack of set ops could also be construed as user-facing :) 17:10
jnthn colomon: There's some cases that blow up nastily.
TimToady: Yes, I was talking about hunting down the bad failure modes that can happen when adding stuff in the setting, not the set ops. :)
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TimToady and to someone naïve like me, it seems like another bootstrap step might help with that, at the cost of another bootstrap step, of course :) 17:11
jnthn TimToady: It may, but it also brings the tricky issue of the setting's stuff really wanting to be in a single lexical scope. 17:13
Maybe there's a good way to do somehting import-y...
TimToady sometimes it feels like we're still trying to do N bootstrapping steps by putting N blocks of text into the setting; I see you point about the scoping, but maybe there's some way around that 17:14
jnthn Well, CORE.setting today is one single file when the compiler gets it
That there's any file split at all is just a developer convenience. They're all concatenated and compiled as one. 17:15
The only step outside of that is the chunk of NQP code that assembles some of the most basic things by doing various MOP calls, then exports what it made, and the first thing CORE.setting does is import that. 17:16
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TimToady I'm not so worried about the mechanics of that as I am about not really being sure what language we're in at any point; it'd be nice if we could know we were in something very close to full Perl 6 by the middle somewhere 17:18
you can file that in the IWBNI bucket, of course :) 17:19
jnthn Oh, I don't doubt it'd be nice. Just...tuit allocation. :)
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TimToady sure, just some yaks are more equal than others :) 17:20
TimToady stops tickling the guy in the torture device 17:22
jnthn Don't worry, writing WPF demo code is actually a worse torture :P 17:23
colomon > 1, 2, 3 (|) 2, 4, 6 17:30
set(1, 2, 3, 4, 6)
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jnthn dinner time, bbl 17:54
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GlitchMr Just wondering, now that GitHub deprecated downloads, where Rakudo and Niecza will store downloads now? 18:52
popl GlitchMr: I think they were discussing this in the channel yesterday. Peruse the logs.
It might be there. 18:53
GlitchMr My download newest stable Perl 6 script was depending on GitHub, but whatever. It's just my problem. 18:54
popl No, it's not just your problem. It's a big hassle. 18:55
But it can happen, I guess.
GlitchMr I guess hosting it on feather is not an option.
jnthn GlitchMr: Rakudo downloads will be hosted on rakudo.org from now on; pmichaud++ got them copied over there earlier. 18:57
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flussence if bandwidth becomes a problem, I've got a suggestion: recompressing star 2012.11 using xz instead of gzip is about 30% smaller (5.3MB). 19:20
[Coke] has never heard of xz. Coke was still on bz. 19:22
jnthn geez, you missed all of cz through wz too?! 19:23
FROGGS__ hehe 19:24
flussence it's just a unix-ified version of the 7z format (which I believe sorts before all of them :)
19:24 FROGGS__ is now known as FROGGS
[Coke] r: say ('a'..'z').pick(1) ~ 'zip' 19:24
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«fzip␤»
GlitchMr lol
Randomly choose 'ZIP' format 19:25
The problem with FZIP is that... it's just ZIP... with different extension. 19:26
Used for Foxit Reader add-ons
BinGOs extensions are so 20th century 19:27
GlitchMr r: gist.github.com/4251559 19:28
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Cannot negate in because it is not iffy enough␤at /tmp/Jrrik3DuIY:9␤------> say 'lol' !in⏏ 'face';␤»
GlitchMr Even with new Gist page, getting gist still works :-).
diakopter GlitchMr: yes; fortunate
FROGGS BinGOs: mime magic++, and it is pretty easy for Perl 6 19:29
GlitchMr I thought you meant that add-ons are so 20th century ;-).
FROGGS I was thinking of file extensions.... pluggable add-ons are useful and will be ever 19:33
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moritz colomon: regarding your advent calendar post, you can replace $*ARGFILES.slurp with simply slurp() 19:47
GlitchMr Wouldn't simply `slurp` work?
diakopter r: say slurp 19:48
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«Land der Berge, Land am Strome,␤Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,␤Land der Hämmer, zukunftsreich!␤Heimat bist du großer Söhne,␤Volk, begnadet für das Schöne,␤vielgerühmtes Österreich,␤vielgerühmtes Österreich!␤␤Heiß umfehdet, wild umstritten␤liegst dem Erdteil du inmi…
19:48 popl left
huf huh? 19:48
diakopter r: say slurp slurp slurp slurp slurp slurp
moritz r: say slurp.uc
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«Unable to open filehandle from path 'Land der Berge, Land am Strome,␤Land der Äcker, Land der Dome,␤Land der Hämmer, zukunftsreich!␤Heimat bist du großer Söhne,␤Volk, begnadet für das Schöne,␤vielgerühmtes Österreich,␤vielgerühmtes Österreich!␤␤Heiß umfehdet, wild …
rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«LAND DER BERGE, LAND AM STROME,␤LAND DER ÄCKER, LAND DER DOME,␤LAND DER HÄMMER, ZUKUNFTSREICH!␤HEIMAT BIST DU GROSSER SÖHNE,␤VOLK, BEGNADET FÜR DAS SCHÖNE,␤VIELGERÜHMTES ÖSTERREICH,␤VIELGERÜHMTES ÖSTERREICH!␤␤HEISS UMFEHDET, WILD UMSTRITTEN␤LIEGST DEM ERDTEIL DU IN…
GlitchMr Also, I see Moritz had to put his "Exceptions" post. Why perlpilot haven't yet put his Perl 6 Advent article. 19:49
huf why the austrian anthem?
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moritz GlitchMr: in this case, it works. But if there's something after it that could be parsed either as infix or prefix, it might go wrong 19:49
popl Can someone hit me with some UTF-8 please?
huf éáí
moritz huf: we had to use something :-)
GlitchMr popl: żółć łódź 19:50
moritz popl: ␤ is the newline character
huf moritz: is anyone austrian or is there some other reason?
moritz huf: I think there was a YAPC::EU in Vienna or something
popl GlitchMr: That renders nicely.
huf ah :)
moritz not sure if it's connected
popl GlitchMr: Thanks for the suggestion.
GlitchMr No problem. I use that font for coding and terminall. 19:51
terminal*
popl I like the braces.
GlitchMr I only don't like dot and comma in DejaVu Sans Mono, but other than that, it's nice font. 19:53
huf i quite like this anthem 19:54
now that i read the translation
20:03 SamuraiJack left
sergot hi ! o/ 20:11
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Rotwang hi 20:45
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Rotwang I'm trying to query p6eval but it doesn't work :C 20:47
so basicaly my question is: why 500 ~~ Int is True
but 1000/2 ~~ Int is False?
moritz r: say (1000/2).WHAT 20:48
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«Rat()␤»
moritz Rotwang: does that answer your question?
Rotwang quite 20:49
thank you 20:50
moritz you're welcome
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Rotwang so how do I check if scalar contains an integer? 21:19
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felher r: my $int = 1000; my $rat = $int/2; say $int ~~ Int; say $rat ~~ Int; 21:22
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«True␤False␤»
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felher Rotwang: you can check if a $variable is an Int with '~~ Int'. The problem is, that '$int/2' is not an Int. If you want to know if '$int/2' is equivalent to an integer, you may do: 21:23
colomon moritz: please tell me my advent post didn't post while I was at bell rehearsal...
felher r: my $rat = 1000/2; say $rat == $rat.Int
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«True␤»
felher doesn't know if there is a better way :) 21:24
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moritz colomon: it didn't 21:24
colomon whew!
moritz colomon: but I read the preview
colomon the half-finished preview, as I paused to implement needed features in rakudo. :) 21:25
jnthn Blog Post Driven Development :)
jnthn ended up fixing something in the debugger while writing the debugger post :) 21:26
moritz wouldn't be the first time
jnthn hah!
Rotwang felher: thank you
perl6 has really steep learning curve 21:27
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Rotwang maybe because there is not yet camel book equivalent 21:27
21:28 spider-mario left
felher Rotwang: may be :) 21:29
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felher Good night, #perl6 21:32
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popl Good night, John Boy! 21:33
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masak good late evening, #perl6. 21:42
popl afternoon, masak
jnthn dobry vecer, masak
popl I just ate lunch.
Now I am eating cookies. And telling the world about it! 21:43
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sorear o/ masak 21:45
masak Q: do three days of teaching wear you out? A: yes, but probably not as much as five days of teaching. 21:46
stand by for final results.
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jnthn We thank you for participating in this research project. 21:47
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masak 'night, #perl6 22:21
diakopter o/ 22:22
grondilu damn, would you guys please have a look at this attempt to create a modular integer class? gist.github.com/4272252 22:31
It used to work, but for some reason it does not work anymore. It tells me there is no candidate for infix:<+> where I do $a.Bridge + $b.Bridge 22:32
diakopter does .Bridge return an Int? 22:33
grondilu it should
diakopter try specifying that it does? 22:34
grondilu checks
I'd like something very generic. I'm considering using any group, not just integers.
diakopter yeah but % would need defined for that 22:35
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grondilu I've checked: .Bridge does return an int 22:36
*Int
(assuming the object was created with something like Modular.new: $SomeInt, :$modulus; 22:37
)
diakopter oh, you've redefined <+>($, $)
grondilu well I want to
timotimo so, assuming i would like to try to improve the error message you get for trying to use . to concatenate strings in rakudo. how difficult is that? how many different places would i have to look at and/or touch? is there some good place to just look at to see how it's done?
grondilu diakopter: but I didn't expect perl6 to forget about usual addition with integers :/ 22:38
diakopter what if you comment those protos
grondilu then it does not export. But I guess I could repeat the export for each multi. 22:39
diakopter I'd try that
grondilu oh indeed now it works 22:40
jnthn timotimo: Look for infix:sym<.> in STD. See if you can't incorporate that into Rakudo's Grammar.pm.
timotimo i'll try 22:41
grondilu so I must avoid redefining protos when extending arithmetics operators. I'll try to remember that.
it's kind of annoying that I have to repeat the export trait, though.
diakopter you need a macro :P 22:42
grondilu wow, that'd be weird 22:43
I don't want to rant, but honnestly it should be easier to overload arithmetic operators. It's much easier in Perl5, for instance. 22:44
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timotimo std: "foo" . "bar" 22:45
jnthn grondilu: Provided your proto was an onlystar one, I think it shoulda just taken the candidates and merged them. I guess Rakudo just ain't that smart yet. 22:46
p6eval std a8bc48f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of . to concatenate strings; in Perl 6 please use ~ at /tmp/zC97NlkRd3 line 1:␤------> "foo" . ⏏"bar"␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 42m␤»
jnthn r: "foo" . "bar"
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Two terms in a row␤at /tmp/nYSb2oKljx:1␤------> "foo" ⏏. "bar"␤ expecting any of:␤ postfix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ infix stopper␤ statement end␤ statement modifier␤ stateme…
timotimo ijust wanted to find the error message
jnthn yeah :)
Just seeing we didn't already do it
timotimo i checked in advance :D
wait, i was getting "confused"
jnthn Your Rakudo is probably a little older then. 22:47
timotimo yes, indeed
it appears to be a 2012.10
jnthn The TTIAR thing is very recent.
Like, within the last few days.
It's not quite right either yet...shouldn't have said TTIAR there. That's on my todo list... :)
But, $dayjob nommed all the tuits again today, and will tomorrow also 22:48
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jnthn Guess I should get an early night...gotta do an early commute and for some reason the rail network here isn't very well built for cold weather... 22:48
'night o/ 22:49
diakopter o/
timotimo what is a tuit?
diakopter "get around to it"
timotimo oooh 22:50
22:50 daniel-s_ left 22:51 MayDaniel left
diakopter so a round tuit is an available unit of work capacity 22:51
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timotimo interesting. the code seems to already be in place, but gives a different error 22:54
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timotimo r: 'foo'.'bar' 23:07
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Quoted method name requires parenthesized arguments␤at /tmp/IjfEWs5nEm:1␤------> 'foo'.'bar'⏏<EOL>␤»
timotimo i've added 'use ~ to concatenate strings' to that
but i don't quite know how to catch 'foo' . 'bar'
23:07 stopbit left
timotimo oh, i didn't look right 23:08
23:14 Rotwang left
timotimo are those kind of thing supposed to have unit tests? 23:14
so i added this line here: token infix:sym<.> { <.obs('. to concatenate strings', '~')> } 23:17
but when trying to make, i get a huge amount of the same error message over and over: Error while constructing error object:Could not locate compile-time value for symbol X::Comp::AdHoc 23:18
and then it runs out of memory :|
23:18 bluescreen10 left
timotimo ah, using «.» instead made it work i think 23:19
nope, same error. no clue what's going on to be honest
oh, the first error is cannot create an X::Obsolete object 23:20
dalek ast: aadc834 | (Solomon Foster)++ | S03-operators/set.t:
Fudge for rakudo.
 23:22
timotimo backslashing the . seems to be the right thing to do 23:24
curses! wrong again :(
disregard all that please 23:26
i need to go see a doctor about my eyesight i believe 23:29
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timotimo it would appear my infix up there was being matched everywhere 23:30
it would seem i'm not allowed to commit to rakudo/rakudo 23:34
t.h8.lv/0001-warn-about-obsolete-us...ings.patch - anyone may feel free to commit this, or give me the right to push to rakudo/rakudo (github user name is timo) 23:36
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timotimo rakudo: $. 23:46
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name␤at /tmp/cqBc08AEwZ:1␤------> $⏏.␤ expecting any of:␤ statement list␤ prefix or term␤ prefix or meta-prefix␤»
timotimo so, i improved that message to say Unsupported use of $. variable; in Perl 6 please use the filehandle's .line method
std: / $. /
p6eval std a8bc48f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $. variable; in Perl 6 please use the filehandle's .line method at /tmp/HgOnZDrYaa line 1:␤------> / $.⏏ /␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:00 42m␤»
timotimo not that one yet, though
couldn't find another occurence of that string in std, though, so not sure how to make that one match as well 23:47
grondilu rn: role Foo does Numeric { method Bridge { 42 } }; use Test; is 5 but Foo, 42; 23:50
p6eval niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«not ok 1␤# /tmp/j7elaC3MkK line 1␤# Failed test␤# got: 5␤# expected: 42␤»
..rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - ␤# got: '5'␤# expected: '42'␤»
grondilu rn: class Foo does Numeric { method Bridge { 42 } }; use Test; is Foo.new, 42; 23:52
p6eval niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«not ok 1␤# /tmp/DbihpOq1nZ line 1␤# Failed test␤# got: Foo()<instance>␤# expected: 42␤»
..rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - ␤# got: 'Foo<-1855941745>'␤# expected: '42'␤»
grondilu rn: role Foo does Numeric { method Bridge { 42 }; method Str { "42" } }; use Test; is 5 but Foo, 42; 23:54
p6eval niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«ok 1␤»
..rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«ok 1 - ␤»
grondilu rn: class Foo does Numeric { method Bridge { 42 } }; use Test; is_approx Foo.new, 42; 23:55
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
..niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«Unhandled exception: Cannot use value like Foo as a number␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/CORE.setting line 293 (Any.Numeric @ 6) ␤ at <unknown> line 0 (ExitRunloop @ 0) ␤ at /home/p6eval/niecza/lib/Test.pm6 line 155…
grondilu rn: role Foo does Numeric { method Bridge { 42 } }; use Test; is_approx 5 but Foo, 42;
p6eval rakudo 78b53a: OUTPUT«not ok 1 - ␤# got: 5␤# expected: 42␤» 23:56
..niecza v24-5-g599cbcb: OUTPUT«not ok 1␤# /tmp/S4DJz19f2m line 1␤# got: 5␤# expected: 42␤»

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