»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by sorear on 4 February 2011.
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dalek p-jvm-prep: c50db7c | jonathan++ | t/qast_6model.t:
Sketch out a basic test for attributes.
 00:53
p-jvm-prep: bce9af6 | jonathan++ | / (2 files):
Add getattr/bindattr ops.

Currently, not useful for anything as P6opaque doesn't yet support attributes.
p-jvm-prep: 7e1b0d3 | jonathan++ | src/org/perl6/nqp/sixmodel/reprs/P6Opaque (3 files):
Make P6opaque support reference type attributes.

Done in a way that will be relatively easily extensible to natively typed attributes and the box/unbox stuff later on.
Makes the previously added basic attributes test pass.
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jnthn sleep & 01:04
[Coke] jnthn++ 01:09
colomon [Coke]++ 01:14
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kthakore 3~/win 2 01:51
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timotimo that interview with damian conway was very pleasant to watch 03:04
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lue got this trying to run latest panda: ===SORRY!===\nNo object at index 333 03:34
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sorear lue: you are experiencing stale compiled files. delete your ~/.perl6 and reinstall panda 03:41
lue Ah. Will have to do that later then, fortunately I don't need any modules at the moment. 03:42
flussence it's a bug in git rakudo or something. I've been unable to fix it for weeks :/ 03:50
(well, besides deleting all the .pir files on my system, but that doesn't fix the root of it) 03:51
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adu_ hi sorear 04:53
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sorear hi adu_ 05:09
adu_ how goes? 05:15
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sorear ok 05:21
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FROGGS morning *yawn* 06:15
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FROGGS jnthn: I've noticed that there are cases where $foreign_proto is a dispatcher but $_.value is not, see github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/frog...ld.pm#L277 07:04
jnthn: before I added the conditions to line 277 there, the following test caused a NULLPMC error in clone(): github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master...sub.t#L227 07:05
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FROGGS jnthn: is it wise to make a new branch to roast to add/unfudge merge tests? I dont wanna wait for the time my patch is merged in to recognize that there are issues which are not covered yet 07:07
jnthn: so I guess I got my answer already ;o)
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moritz \o 07:31
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Woodi good morning everyone :) 08:21
moritz sorear: fwiw rakudo doesn't look into ~/.perl6/lib anymore, but int %*CUSTOM_LIB<site> ~ '/lib' 08:23
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Woodi about coloring syntax: if perl can be parsed only by perl then there is a need for at least one code editor colored by perl... but, as stated many times, it will be slow so: is checking syntax on whole document is needed on every keystroke ? maybe fire syntax highlighting on \W like braces, operators is good enought ? or maybe caching colors of lines above current line ? 08:26
moritz you don't need to parse code to hilight it 08:28
it's enough to an approximate lexing 08:29
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Woodi in recent years big MMO games like EVE maked UI threaded which realy improved user experience :) second thread executing perl interpreter can be fast enought... and additional to colouring it can display errors and warnings in status line or contextual messages... 08:31
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Woodi moritz: just doing sci-fi autor thinking with hope of help a bit :) 08:32
brrt hi p6
Woodi o/
work & 08:33
brrt \o woodi
moritz Woodi: then also consider the dystopia
you don't want your editor to run the perl compiler over the code all by itself
consider BEGIN shell 'rm -rf ~'
Woodi hmm, I thinked about code I can type :) 08:34
but right
perl is dangerous!
avoid it on all costs ! :) 08:35
brrt :-)
use safe languages such as python and java!
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Woodi but realy second thread for highlighting can be good 08:35
yea, even asm have better ridability... 08:36
moritz good riddance
Woodi so perl6-debugger is voulnerable to BEGIN shell trick ? :) 08:38
tadzik well, if you put such things in your code... :)
good morning #perl6
Woodi hallo tadzik :)
moritz Woodi: in first approximation, the debugger runs the code just like the compiler
FROGGS_ someone should glue STD.pm6 to an editor 08:41
... together with hoelzro's highlighter 08:42
lets make Qadre! \o/ 08:43
hoelzro FROGGS_: but then the editor would have to use Python =( 08:46
FROGGS_ hoelzro: both 08:48
wouldnt hurt IMO
Woodi can we replace Python with something ? :) 08:50
FROGGS_ rewrite the highlighter... sounds like a lot of work... 08:51
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hoelzro actually, it wouldn't be *that* much work 08:55
then again, I'm probably ignorant of all the work that Pygments does behind the scenes 08:56
the lexer itself is fairly simple, especially considering the language it's lexing
Woodi hoelzro: what you think about 2 threads in editor ? one for user input second for highlighting (and displaying) ? 09:05
hmm, ldd vim already shows libpthread... 09:06
hoelzro Woodi: you probably wouldn't need a second thread for highlighting if your highlighter were smart enough 09:07
Woodi hoelzro: I think about user experience and parsing always takes time, sometimes chokes...
hoelzro so you would need to get a lock on the text every time the user changes it? 09:08
Woodi generally I do not want pragmatk aproach here :) thinking about future arhitectures with many cores, etc, bla bla bla :) 09:10
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Woodi hoelzro: no, good data struct can get user text and take user input and rest of app can do editor work... 09:11
hoelzro I don't think that another thread for highlighting is necessarily a bad idea, but it sounds like a pain to implement
Woodi hoelzro: I know :) and that is a point ! we need to start small with just 2 threads ! :) 09:12
or just 1 main thread doing work delegation to small threads... and then make small changes in programs arhitecture planning... 09:14
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kresike hello all you happy perl6 people 09:17
Woodi sugar 25 kg, gelatin 4 kg... work 7 :)
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FROGGS_ Woodi: you are making statue? 09:32
masak a happy morning to you, #perl6 09:37
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FROGGS morning kresike, masak 09:40
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Woodi FROGGS_: no, just stacktaking on end of year in bakery :) 09:47
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kresike FROGGS, o/ 09:47
Woodi but we do cakes too :)
FROGGS a 09:48
cakes++
-a
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masak just to be clear, you don't have to account for any en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon effect in t4. 10:37
moritz github.com/munificent/vigil
masak: of course not, since all the spaces between blocks can let air through 10:38
arnsholt "This is similar to contracts, but less legal and more medieval." =D 10:40
moritz aye :-) 10:42
au vigil seems like a natural fit with TDDD (test-deletion-driven development). 10:45
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moritz I think you could use it to train people to "commit early, commit often" 10:56
and after you found an assertion violation, you do a 'git diff' and immediately see which method triggered it 10:57
masak moritz: you're right. I still believe the original t4 description is carefully worded enough to make it clear. but it doesn't hurt to be over-specific, and I just got an email asking me about the siphon effect. :) 10:58
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masak laughed out loud upon reaching "it will be deleted from your source code." 11:00
of course! so simple!
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arnsholt Indeed. Dropping those hints about "must be punished" and then keeping that gem until the end was brilliant! 11:10
tadzik maybe it should have a soft-core mode, carving "I must not tell lies" in blood somewhere in the source code 11:11
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jnthn morning o/ 11:24
FROGGS morning jnthn
jnthn Going to be doing a bunch of visiting folks in the next few days, so will probably not be online a great deal. 11:26
Woodi: The point of a debuggers is to run the code without doing things differently to if it was being run normally, just letting the user see what's going on at various points. It'd be a pretty useless debugger if it didn't run the BEGIN blocks. :) 11:28
moritz if you want to debug a program that deletes your hard drive, you want it to delete your hard drive while debugging too :-) 11:31
jnthn FROGGS: The reason you have the get_bool not implemented thing is probably because you put something (looks like PROCESS) in boolean context that doesn't (at that point) know how to be. You could always use defined, or nqp::concrete(...) instead.
probably nqp::defined, in fact
That'd about the NQPCursorRole special case too 11:32
Also just calling .is_dispatcher on any symbol is probably a bad idea. Probably should be protected with nqp::can check
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moritz also I think we should only merge if both protos are marked as onlystar 11:41
jnthn moritz: I already mentiond that one to FROGGS 11:43
oh, and I thought it was done, but now I look at the branch I don't see it... 11:44
Note that to de-duplicate we can also use the .static_id thingy 11:45
moritz good idea
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dalek p-jvm-prep: 4ab6071 | jonathan++ | / (2 files):
Add box/unbox ops.

Note that P6opaque will also need some work before it can support these.		 11:57
p-jvm-prep: 9615c61 | jonathan++ | t/qast_6model.t:
Test box/unbox with the boot types.
p-jvm-prep: 9a2db5b | jonathan++ | docs/ROADMAP:
ROADMAP update.
 11:59
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FROGGS moritz: so you mean that we only should merge the dispatchees if their proto is onlystar? 12:06
hmmm 12:07
jnthn If *both* protos are onlystar
FROGGS ahh, yeah, makes sense
jnthn Which is the common case.
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FROGGS r: proto sub a { 42 }; multi sub a ( $a ) { $a }; say a(7) 12:08
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«Too many positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 0␤ in sub a at /tmp/PFMftDURHN:1␤ in block at /tmp/PFMftDURHN:1␤␤»
FROGGS r: proto sub a ( Mu ) { 42 }; multi sub a ( $a ) { $a }; say a(7)
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«42␤»
FROGGS r: proto sub a ( Mu ) { 42 }; multi sub a ( Int $a ) { $a }; say a(7) 12:09
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«42␤»
FROGGS r: proto sub a ( Mu ) { * }; multi sub a ( Int $a ) { $a }; say a(7)
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«7␤»
FROGGS r: proto sub a { * }; multi sub a ( Int $a ) { $a }; say a(7)
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling proto of 'a' will never work with argument types (int) (line 1)␤ Expected: :()␤»
FROGGS why does it ignore the multi? 12:10
moritz multis work by first calling the proto
jnthn The proto's signature must be at least as wide as that of the candidates.
moritz and the proto can then decide to re-dispatch to the candidates
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jnthn Otherwise you never make it into the proto and never hit the * thtat triggers the multi-dispatch 12:10
moritz but if you write proto sub a { * }, it has a signature of ()
so the proto (and thus the candidates) cannot be called 12:11
FROGGS ahh, k, cool
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FROGGS r: proto sub a { * }; multi sub a ( Int $a ) { $a }; say a( a => 7) 12:12
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'a'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Int $a)␤␤ in block at /tmp/Qn4X7fgWWB:1␤␤»
FROGGS r: proto sub a ( Mu ) { * }; multi sub a ( Int $a ) { $a }; say a( a => 7)
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«Cannot call 'a'; none of these signatures match:␤:(Int $a)␤␤ in block at /tmp/6eihJU511h:1␤␤»
FROGGS r: proto sub a ( Mu ) { * }; multi sub a ( Int :$a! ) { $a }; say a( a => 7)
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«7␤»
FROGGS r: proto sub a ( Mu ) { 42 }; multi sub a ( Int :$a! ) { $a }; say a( a => 7) 12:13
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«Not enough positional parameters passed; got 0 but expected 1␤ in sub a at /tmp/5m8kubQR8R:1␤ in block at /tmp/5m8kubQR8R:1␤␤»
FROGGS k
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dalek ast: 065efbb | moritz++ | S02-names-vars/variables-and-packages.t:
unfudge a passing test for rakudo
 12:36
ast: 896563b | moritz++ | S29-context/die.t:
another rakudo unfudge
 12:37
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masak could rosettacode.org/wiki/Balanced_brackets be map-reduced? I always thought it couldn't because nesting isn't a "local" property... but Steele in labs.oracle.com/projects/plrg/Publi...Steele.pdf mentions monoid-cached trees, which seem applicable here. 12:39
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masak (more exactly, the "parallel prefix problem" that he solves seems structurally very similar to the nested brackets property) 12:41
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sorear masak: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntactic_monoid 12:50
2nd example 12:51
sleep&
masak damn, I gotta learn more of this category theory stuff. it's like it's calling me from the other side of a veil. 12:53
dalek p-jvm-prep: d70c951 | jonathan++ | / (4 files):
Preparations for supporting native attributes.
 12:54
jnthn Away for some days...worst case until Monday. o/ 12:55
brrt bye jnthn!
masak fare thyself well, jnthn.
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masak ok, so the balanced brackets do form a monoid. I'd still be curious to see an actual map-reduce solution implemented for this. 13:01
it's not 100% clear to me what it'd look like.
arnsholt One idea I had was to map a string fragment to a number 13:03
Nah, won't work after all
Parallel parsing is kinda nasty to wrap your brain around =)
masak resolves to study monoids some more 13:05
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mikemol This thread needs some love: www.reddit.com/r/programming/commen...6_writing/ 13:12
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masak there's a kind of saturation level at which I feel I need to stay away from such threads, help further Perl 6 along, and leave bickering over semantics to others. 13:19
hoelzro it's kind of troubling to observe that kind of reaction to Perl 6, though
half of the people don't expect it to be ready anytime soon, and the other half seem to have given up 13:20
masak the only way to really silence that kind of reaction to Perl 6 is to put Perl 6 to good, objectively undeniable uses.
brrt chromatic has posted a nice thing about p6 too recently 13:21
hoelzro brrt: really?
masak I'm not claiming Perl 6 is ready for everyone. I'm claiming it's ready for a whole lot of people with an interest in the features Perl 6 provides, not too great a need for perf, and something of a tolerance for bugs.
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hoelzro I see him as one of the larger critics, so I'd like to see that 13:22
see, that's an interesting point, masak
masak keep in mind that chromatic is not evil. he used to be a big supporter or Perl 6, but he burned out.
of*
hoelzro masak: oh, I don't think he's evil! I'm just saying that he's critical
which isn't a bad thing, but it makes it harder to advocate
brrt hoelzro, it was nice-and-not-nice at the same time
masak his criticisms should be read in the light of him being disappointed. 13:23
brrt it was nice in that it said perl6 is a well-designed language
masak on his best days, chromatic acts as a counterweight to exuberant Perl 6 optimism on reddit.
brrt it was not nice in that it said that rakudo isn't going anywhere
hoelzro brrt: ah
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masak chromatic was also heavily invested in Parrot as a platform, so Rakudo's investigating the JVM counts in his mind as Rakudo "not going anywhere". 13:24
hoelzro see, my trouble is I'd like to write something in Perl 6, but a) I occasionally encounter show-stopper bugs, like with my chat bot, or b) I'd like it be used and improved by others, and I feel that many people wouldn't want to deal with installing/learning Perl 6 just to use my stuff
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brrt i personally have doubts about rakudo-on-jvm 13:25
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brrt it could work, it could also not work 13:25
masak all of this, by the way, is trying to put a context to what chromatic is saying. not psychoanalysing him. :)
brrt although i'm also very much pro-rakudo-in-nqp
as in, 'lets kill PIR fast'
cedrvint masak++ # irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-01-03#i_6294423 13:27
masak cedrvint: well, it's like this: I've seen hundreds of these threads at this point. they all look alike. 13:28
cedrvint: the *good* outcome (from our perspective) is that the other guys say "well, I'm willing to wait and see if it turns into something nice". 13:29
cedrvint: at which point I get back to helping Perl 6 and its implementations improve.
so I just figure, why not short-circuit the process and avoid reddit altogether? :) it's not like convincing people on reddit is a intellectually fulfilling anyway :) 13:30
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cedrvint for sure! :) 13:31
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masak brrt: PIR is well on its way to obsolescence, if I read the tea leaves right. 13:33
brrt good riddance 13:35
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hoelzro what's wrong with PIR? 13:36
hoelzro is lost
masak all other things being equal, the fewer the steps between source code and object code, the better. PIR is one of the steps that don't belong.
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hoelzro oh, ok 13:36
masak you have to generate the PIR, then you have to parse the PIR. madness.
it's committing the sin of making an intermediate format textual/linear, rather than structured/tree-like. 13:37
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timotimo if i have a grammar, can i easily create a parse tree from just data and use the grammar to emit a correct string representation? where in the spec do i find this? 13:42
masak define "just data". 13:43
moritz a Str? :-)
masak grammars won't get you a string from something else, no. not if I understand your question right. 13:44
anyway, if you have the parse tree and all the nodes know their string representation... just traverse and concatenate. :)
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arnsholt Various people (myself included) have debated trying to generate from grammars, but it's definitely non-trivial (and not possible in the fully general case, I suspect) 13:45
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arnsholt But as masak says, if you have the data structure, generating a string representation should just be a matter of traversing the structure 13:45
Which may or may not be easy, depending on how complicated your data structure is 13:46
timotimo right.
mikemol is very, very pro-rakudo-in-nqp.
moritz is there anybody how is contra rakudo-in-nqp? 13:47
mikemol The more it's built on top of NQP, the more it becomes trivial to run it on top of god knows how many different languages.
arnsholt is optimistic about the NQP/JVM thing 13:48
I think it'll be good both for Perl 6 and Rakudo
masak yeah.
Woodi I have impression that Perl6 implementations have annoing habit of slapping you in face when you start to write something bigger... you start project becouse there is nice, shiny feature but after some lines you are blocked by lack of some basic feature every language should have... IO::Sockets problems in rakudo, GUI in Niecza... 13:50
arnsholt Part of that boils down to the fact that interacting with the outside world is actually quite complicated and labour intensive
mikemol I mean, I've got a guy somewhat interested in writing NQP in Go. I know a JavaScript fan I might conceivably persuade to take an interest. I want to try it in C++ and Python. And I bet a cdent implementation from ingy would be fascinating.
arnsholt I think
moritz Woodi: then do something about it 13:51
masak "progress depends on the unreasonable man" :) 13:52
Woodi only one think which work nearly perfect in Perl6 is text mangling :) in text and network form :)
moritz finds that object orientation works pretty well in rakudo too
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Woodi moritz: I plan to try packaging I was talking few days before... but programming isn't my no. 1 or #2 skill :) 13:55
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masak today's mini-challenge: let f be a random mapping from 1..N to 1..N. what's the expected number of steps for the sequence 1, f(1), f(f(1)) ... to start repeating itself? 14:04
(courtesy of Knuth's 2011 Christmas tree lecture. apparently the answer contains pi somehow.)
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moritz and you want... an answer? or a program that approximates an average? 14:05
masak a Perl 6 program that simulates an answer, and tabulates it with the correct formula for comparison :) 14:06
masak is halfway done already
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masak notice that the sequence doesn't have to go back to 1. it just has to loop back to any previous number in the sequence. 14:08
moritz does 1, 1, 1, 1 count as a repetition count of 1? 14:09
or 0?
masak 0 isn't part of the mapping.
oh, sorry. I see what you mean. 14:10
it starts repeating after 1 step.
so the sequence will always repeat after >1 steps.
er >= 1 steps.
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Woodi answer should be quantified in % or should be Num ? 14:11
masak the case N=1 contains only your sequence of only 1s.
Woodi: the average of a lot of integers is either a Rat or a Num :) 14:12
Woodi but you need to interpret a given number shomehow :) 14:13
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Woodi or formula ? 14:13
moritz masak: gist.github.com/45202bfd81a2a8dbdf87
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masak ooh, you just run through them all. 14:15
I simulated randomly chosen mappings, Monte-Carlo-style.
moritz me too
no, I don't generate all permutations 14:16
masak oh, right.
but you adapt the number of trials to the size of $N.
moritz yes
though it's rather crude
masak anyway, this is half the solution. the other half is to find the formula for the average.
I still haven't found it.
I should post my code, too. 14:17
moritz are you sure it's a mini challenge? :-)
Woodi if f is random mapping then f(f(1)) can be simplified as f(1) ? :) 14:18
masak moritz: pretty sure :)
moritz random, not identical
masak here's mine: gist.github.com/4443780 14:19
I'm usually not this different in style to moritz :)
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pmurias mikemol: re built on top of nqp, to be more accurent rakudo is written in nqp and compiles code to QAST (which nqp also compiles code too) 14:20
moritz oh, f doesn't need to be bijective?
pmurias mikemol: and someone was compiling tcl to QAST too ;) 14:21
masak moritz: if it did, I woulda said "permutation", not "mapping".
moritz: oh, now I see you assumed that.
moritz: so did one in the audience of Knuth's lecture :)
I simplified my gist.github.com/4443780 a bit -- the gather is better written as infix:<xx> 14:22
moritz uhm 14:24
if it's not bijective, the simulation doesn't terminate
erm
masak surely you can't keep applying a function in a finite...
moritz nevermind
masak ...set without generating a loop? :)
pmurias jnthn: how are functions like &say,&prints loaded? 14:25
moritz ok, now it's much faster 14:26
and produces smaller numbers
masak :)
pmurias jnthn: they don't get serialized right?
masak moritz: for reference, for N=20 I have the average as 5.2490 14:27
moritz masak: I have 5.365 14:28
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moritz has to run errands before turning to the analytical part of the solution 14:29
masak yeah, that's within the expected variation. I'm only running 1000 trials right now.
moritz well, I run 400 for 20 :-) 14:30
masak things vary in the first decimal from run to run for me.
pmurias jnthn: I have found the answer to my question ;) 14:31
moritz hey, I can generate @f lazily
masak searching for various things on ddg turns up nothing for this problem. makes it more interesting :)
arnsholt I wonder if this can't be seen as some kind of markov chain
moritz I have an idea on how to approach the analytical solution 14:32
but will have to delay persuing it
bbl
Woodi if f will be defined sub f(x) { return x+1 } then answer will be N ?
masak arnsholt: it's a markov chain, but the set of state transitions is the thing we're varying.
arnsholt Yeah, it's not quite a standard markov chain 14:33
masak Woodi: assuming f(N) = 1, yes.
Woodi: but we're averaging over all possible f.
[Coke] (tcl to qast) ... was that me?
and if not, who was it? ;)
masak Woodi: it's impossible for the cycle length to be >N
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masak hmm. define L(N) as being the expected length for a random mapping from 1..N to 1..N. 14:49
from what I can see, L(1) = 1.0, L(7) = 3.0, L(12) = 4.0, L(18) = 5.0, and all these are exact. 14:51
of course, it's hard to tell because of the Monte Carlo nature of it all.
pmurias [Coke]: I think that was you ;)
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masak if we find the analytical formula, this would be a nice task for rosetta code :) 14:52
pmurias [Coke]: so your long term plan is to have tcl on the JVM? ;)
[Coke] pmurias: nah, that's already there. 14:56
it was "get tcl running on parrot for interop purposes." 14:59
14:59 fgomez left
[Coke] ... but that failed due to a lack of general interest in interop. 14:59
(there was some very specific interest, but not widereaching) 15:00
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masak ok, I believe I have the analytical formula now. 15:09
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gfldex r: gist.github.com/4444255 15:24
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«8␤8("price" => 9800, "value" => 484953/50, "components" => Bool::False).hash␤8("price" => 9800, "value" => 484953/50, "components" => Bool::False).hash␤4("price" => 274974/25, "value" => 522151/50, "components" => Bool::False).hash␤158("price" => 1779/20, "value" =…
gfldex rn: gist.github.com/4444266 15:27
p6eval niecza v24-12-g8e50362: OUTPUT«(timeout)Potential difficulties:␤ $k is declared but not used at /tmp/OXQm0Iz6yr line 131:␤------> caldari-fuel-block<components>[0,1] -> ⏏$k, $v {␤ $v is declared but not used at /tmp/OXQm0Iz6yr line 131:␤------> dari-fuel-block… 15:28
..rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«8␤Not enough positional parameters passed; got 1 but expected 2␤ in block at /tmp/qD1hVtUzmy:138␤␤»
gfldex i have two questions about that gist
first, why the heck does niecza timeout?
secondly, why does rakudo make a difference between line 134 and 138? 15:29
[Coke] gfldex: in one case you're iterating over a hash. in the other, you're iterating over a list. 15:30
the bare hash is better written ...<components>.kv -> $k, $v
I think without the .kv you're getting the hash in $k, and then nothing for the $v. 15:31
gfldex it's not a hash
check line 77 to 85
[Coke] ... or my initial read could be way off! :)
masak rn: say sprintf '%12.5f', NaN 15:32
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«NaN␤»
..niecza v24-12-g8e50362: OUTPUT« NaN␤»
masak submits rakudobug
rn: say sprintf '%12.5f', Inf
p6eval niecza v24-12-g8e50362: OUTPUT« Infinity␤»
..rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«Inf␤»
masak rn: say sprintf '%12.5f', -Inf
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«-Inf␤»
..niecza v24-12-g8e50362: OUTPUT« -Infinity␤»
[Coke] er, Parcel vs. List. hurm. 15:33
gfldex and i'm quite sure that used to work before for got lazy 15:34
[Coke] <components>.list seems to work. 15:35
masak rn: say sprintf '%12.5f', 42
[Coke] seems very similar to another lazy bug that was recently reported.
p6eval rakudo f5037e, niecza v24-12-g8e50362: OUTPUT« 42.00000␤»
[Coke] (sorry about my initial misread)
gfldex i can live with a .list workaround 15:37
does .list force it to be eager?
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isBEKaml hello, #perl6! 15:38
masak isBEKaml! \o/ 15:39
timotimo r: gist.github.com/3034309
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«1..2␤ok 1 - ␤ok 2 - ␤»
timotimo yay
[Coke] gfldex: (.eager also STW.)
isBEKaml hello, masak! How's things? (Faster today? ;) 15:41
timotimo hm. i've lost the file, but recently i tried to create a listing of all combinations and all lengths of A and B as a lazy list with a breadth-first-search type of output and ran into really, really strange effects that i couldn't explain to myself 15:43
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timotimo i think i may have done that in /tmp and then my laptop turned itself off at some point :| 15:43
i think i'll try to recreate that
masak um, hm. no, I don't think I have found the analytical formula after all :/ 15:44
kresike bye folks
15:45 kresike left
nwc10 moritz: is rakudo good enough to run the IRC logger yet? 15:48
15:48 [particle] left
isBEKaml masak: you're still on that balanced brackets thing? :) 15:49
dalek rl6-roast-data: 98b6f30 | coke++ | / (4 files):
today (automated commit)
isBEKaml
.oO(Hours at a problem, problem of hours) :P
 15:50
masak isBEKaml: nono, this is the random maps thing :) completely different. irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2013-01-03#i_6294536 15:51
timotimo hrmpf. writing it for the second time i got to the solution faster, the code is cleaner, it's less strange and it works as it's intended to. great :| 15:54
gfldex timotimo: do you fail at failing?
timotimo i think i just did :| 15:55
then again, i failed at failing at failing, so it's all right
now i've hit a little roadblock WRT lazyness 15:59
i'd like to have a list of lazy lists, so i want to replace this code:
my @a := gather do_it([@start, A]); my @b := gather do_it([@start, B]); - with a loop over @values, where @values would have A and B in it 16:00
my first attempt was this: my @sub-lists := gather do_it([@start[], $_]) for @values;
but that seems to immediately eagerly want to resolve the lists - i believe that's due to flattening 16:01
moritz nwc10: might be worth a trial
timotimo so my next attempt was this: my @sub-lists := $(gather do_it([@start[], $_])) for @values; but that didn't cause it to work. maybe it's not a flattening problem after all?
r: my @a := (1..., 2..., 3...); say @a[0][0]; say @a[1][10]; say @a[2][100]; 16:05
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Preceding context expects a term, but found infix , instead␤at /tmp/ElVdkDX2XM:1␤------> my @a := (1...,⏏ 2..., 3...); say @a[0][0]; say @a[1][10␤»
timotimo r: say 1 ... *;
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«1 2 3 4 ...␤»
timotimo r: my @a := (1, 1 ... *, 2, 2 ... *, 3, 3 ... *); say @a[0][0]; say @a[1][10]; say @a[2][100]; 16:06
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤CHECK FAILED:␤Calling 'infix:<...>' will never work with argument types (Mu, Mu, Mu, Whatever) (line 1)␤ Expected any of:␤ :($a, $b)␤»
timotimo r: my @a := ((1, 1 ... *), (2, 2 ... *), (3, 3 ... *)); say @a[0][0]; say @a[1][10]; say @a[2][100];
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«1␤Index out of range. Is: 10, should be in 0..0␤ in method gist at src/gen/CORE.setting:10346␤ in sub say at src/gen/CORE.setting:7515␤ in block at /tmp/CtnC9WJUYN:1␤␤»
timotimo er, now i'm somewhat confused
oh, i think i may have the solution 16:08
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timotimo yes, indeed. this works: 16:09
my @a = \([$_, $_, ... *] for 1, 2, 3, 4); say @a[0][0]; say @a[1][10]; say @a[3][40]; 16:10
r: my @a = \([$_, $_, ... *] for 1, 2, 3, 4); say @a[0][0]; say @a[1][10]; say @a[3][40];
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Comma found before apparent series operator; please remove comma (or put parens\n around the ... listop, or use 'fail' instead of ...)␤at /tmp/rJNf894hU1:1␤------> my @a = \([$_, $_,⏏ ... *] for 1, 2, 3, 4); say @a[0…
masak r: say 42 ... *;
timotimo r: my @a = \([$_, $_ ... *] for (1, 2, 3, 4)); say @a[0][0]; say @a[1][10]; say @a[3][40];
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«42 43 44 45 ...␤»
rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«1 1 1 1 ... 2 2 2 2 ... 3 3 3 3 ... 4 4 4 4 ...␤Any()␤Any()␤»
timotimo er, that's not what i expected after all :|
moritz timotimo: what do you want to achieve? 16:13
timotimo r: my @a = \([$_, $_ ... *] for (1, 2, 3, 4)); say @a[0]; say @a[0]; say @a[0][0]; say @a[0][0][0]; say 'whyyyyyyyyyy?!';
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«1 1 1 1 ... 2 2 2 2 ... 3 3 3 3 ... 4 4 4 4 ...␤1 1 1 1 ... 2 2 2 2 ... 3 3 3 3 ... 4 4 4 4 ...␤1 1 1 1 ... 2 2 2 2 ... 3 3 3 3 ... 4 4 4 4 ...␤1 1 1 1 ...␤whyyyyyyyyyy?!␤»
moritz and what's the \ supposed to do?
timotimo it's supposed to cause the lists to not be eagerly evaluated immediately 16:14
moritz r: my @a := map { [$_ xx * ] }, 0..*; say @a[0][^5]; say @a[5][^5]
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«0 0 0 0 0␤5 5 5 5 5␤»
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moritz timotimo: use binding instead 16:14
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timotimo doesn't seem to work on my more complicated example 16:16
which looks like my @sub-lists := map { gather doer([@start[], $_]) }, @values;
the for @sub-lists { seems to cause it to be eagerly evaluated immediately.
i'll quickly put it up on gist.
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timotimo r: gist.github.com/4444626 16:18
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p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 16:18
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moritz timotimo: well, you have that infinite loop { } 16:21
as soon as you try to .perl that, it runs away 16:22
all the laziness can't fix your logic for you :-)
timotimo it's inside an outer gather, no?
before i generalised it, it worked just fine. each element that falls out of do_it should be a finite list 16:23
it should start with A and then B, then A, A and A, B then B, A and B, B and then three-element lists would follow
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timotimo also, i limited the execution of do_it to yield only [^20] elements 16:24
oooh, i only now realized, you could do this with junctions: 16:26
moritz 's brain explodes
time to reconfigure
timotimo r: say any(&uc, &lc)("Foo!")
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«any(FOO!, foo!)␤»
timotimo r: say (&uc | &lc)("Foo!" | "Bar!") 16:27
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«any(any(FOO!, BAR!), any(foo!, bar!))␤»
masak heh, I remember discovering that trick a few years back... :) 16:29
junctioning callables... and it Just Works. :)
doesn't mean it's a good idea, though. in many cases, I would recommend against it.
timotimo sure 16:30
masak in fact, I use junctions very sparingly nowadays.
rule 1: don't let them escape an expression.
moritz masak: you discovered that trick, and opened a rakudobug
masak rule 2: don't let them escape a function.
moritz: oh, I don't remember the rakudobug part, but that's entirely possible :)
16:31 brrt left, bitonic` is now known as bitonic
timotimo what's the worst than can happen when a junction escapes? 16:31
[Coke] Replicators.
masak :)
timotimo: I just find it gets difficult to reason about.
timotimo right. 16:32
did you look at my gist? i seem to have blown moritz' mind with it, but i still would like to get some help :)
[Coke] wow, pugs has been failing the daily runs for some time.
16:32 kaleem left
[Coke] yesterday the build happened, but all the tests failed because the build had been failing for so long, I hadn't been able to make sure anything past that worked. 16:32
masak timotimo: I have no idea what your goal is with that code. 16:33
timotimo ah, of course 16:34
i was trying to lazily enumerate all combinations of all lengths of @values in a breadth-first-search kind of manner
so A, B, AA, AB, BA, BB, AAA, AAB, ABA, ...
the problem was to generalize from A, B to @values
i could do my @a := gather doer(...); my @b := gather doer(...) just fine, but with the new code it immediately tries to eagerly create that @sub-lists list of lists 16:35
i was hoping i could get the list of lists to be a list of lazy lists and shift one element from each of the lists in turn
moritz masak: my analytical result: www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Sum[n...C+1%2C+n}] 16:38
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doy oeis has the sequence, for what it's worth 16:39
oeis.org/A063169
moritz yes, the description fits 16:43
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masak timotimo: does this work? 16:45
r: my @seed = <A B>; my @e = ""; loop { .say for @e = @e X~ @seed }
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«(timeout)A␤B␤AA␤AB␤BA␤BB␤AAA␤AAB␤ABA␤ABB␤BAA␤BAB␤BBA␤BBB␤AAAA␤AAAB␤AABA␤AABB␤ABAA␤ABAB␤ABBA␤ABBB␤BAAA␤BAAB␤BABA␤BABB␤BBAA␤BBAB␤BBBA␤BBBB␤AAAAA␤AAAAB␤AAABA␤AAABB␤AABAA␤AABAB␤AABBA␤AABBB␤ABAAA␤ABAAB␤ABABA␤ABABB␤ABBAA␤ABBAB␤ABBBA␤ABBBB␤BAAAA␤BAAAB␤BAABA␤BAABB␤BABAA␤BA…
16:46 lolage joined
timotimo yeah, but that's way too simple! :) 16:46
masak doy++
timotimo: I removed the laziness, but you should be able to add it back.
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timotimo i used that example to learn more about lazyness in perl6 :P 16:47
maybe i can change the description of the problem to "get a lazy breadth-first-search of a graph"? ;) 16:48
is there anything about tail recursion in the perl6 language?
recursion would be a nice way to write down the BFS, but it could cause the stack to reach its limit easily in bigger graphs 16:49
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timotimo sprunge.us/AOFJ - i found the very old version of this code in the irclog 16:55
ingy does rakudo or friends have a binding to a pcre engine at this time? 17:01
ingy has a module that he wants to write in perl6 today
moritz I don't think so
timotimo but perl6 has a backwards compatible perl5 regex mode
moritz which is only partially implemented 17:02
timotimo hm, right.
ingy what's missing?
come to think of it I might not need pcre style (like I would for pegex) 17:03
I might be able to use p6rules
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ingy this time I'm porting from Ruby! 17:07
ingy is a gem author finally: rubygems.org/profiles/ingy 17:09
moritz masak: gist.github.com/4445008 17:10
masak moritz: gist.github.com/4443780 17:11
oh, I should add an error column, too :)
also, I should extract the constant term from inside of the sum... :) 17:12
moritz stole the FIRST trick for printing the headings 17:13
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moritz masak: since you call sprintf three times separately, it might be nicer to just use .fmt 17:13
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masak hm, yes. 17:15
moritz masak++ # nice mini challenge 17:21
moritz suppresses the urge to -- for distracting me from doing p6cc coding
masak :P 17:22
that's part of the challenge :)
also, very punny naming the script "monte-carl.pl" :) 17:23
now the only mystery is: where's pi? Knuth promised us a pi.
moritz :-) gald you noticed
*glad
masak :)
moritz masak: maybe in the closed form of that sum
masak was it a red herring, or did I miss it as it snuck by? 17:24
right.
could someone please close the sum? there's a draft, and the pi is getting cold.
moritz note that the sum looks an awful lot like a taylor series of an exp(x) function
or maybe exp(x^2) or so 17:25
masak is getting very good statistics
moritz and the integral over exp(-x^2) is sqrt(pi), iirc 17:26
masak it is.
something that took until multi-dim analysis to explain to us. >:(
moritz ah, the good integral-of-the-square trick, with coordinate transform 17:27
masak aye.
it's also trivial to solve with complex analysis, IIRC.
moritz oh, and it seems that the $N**2 dependency on the number of iterations is overkill
$N is enough
masak ooh
ingy has a strange craving for multi-dimsum
masak ingy++ # bad pun :) 17:28
moritz well, complex analysis does the same coordinate transformation as the square trick
masak well, I seem to recall the trick as similar but different.
there was an arbitrarily large circle involved.
moritz oh, you have the singularity, and do a line integral around it 17:29
masak right.
moritz what's the name of that theorem again?
17:29 JJ_Brain left
masak residue theorem? Picard's theorem? 17:30
"Cauchy's residue theorem" seems to be it. 17:31
moritz I think I know it as Cauchy's, aye
masak it's a special case of the generalized Stokes' theorem, according to Wikipedia.
moritz right, same stuff 17:32
very useful in physics, where integrating over an 1/r potential in space diverges, but you can always integrate over the perimeter 17:33
17:34 bitonic left
masak ...literally circumventing the problem. 17:34
moritz :-)
17:35 SmokeMachine left 17:36 bitonic joined
pmurias is it possible to have to different settings in a compunit? 17:39
s/to/2
17:40 diakopter joined
masak "is it possible 2 have to different..." -- I don't get it. :) 17:40
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masak pmurias: I think you're meant to be able to nest settings. 17:42
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masak pmurias: but I have a hard time imagining more than one OUTER for a single block. 17:42
moritz a setting can have an outer setting 17:43
masak right. 17:44
so the answer is "transitively, yes. directly, no."
[Coke] ... we need to rename setting to turtle.
17:45 bitonic joined 17:46 stevan_ left
felher puts masak's mini challenge on top of his just4fun pile, where it might get tackled after $work 17:47
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masak felher: it was fun indeed! 17:48
#perl6 solves the whole thing! -- gist.github.com/4443780 17:49
[Coke]: "it's settings all the way out."
felher takes a closer look at this solution as soon as he has some spare time and at least one of the following statements is true: he has solved the problem himself || he has given up :) 17:50
masak++ # providing a mini-challenge and a solution 17:51
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masak felher: actually, it was moritz++ who found the formula. 17:51
felher well, moritz++ too, then :)
masak and it's still a sum, not a closed formula. we have reason to believe there's a closed formula and that it contains pi.
see backlog.
felher kk, will probably do after $work 17:52
felher is afk again :)
17:53 PacoAir joined
masak creates an RC task :) 17:54
pmurias re chromatic blog post what "impedance mismatch of an alien memory model" do either JVM or JavaScript as NQP targets suffer? 17:56
moritz r: our Str a; 18:02
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Malformed our␤at /tmp/4c9Ntb8a3b:1␤------> our Str ⏏a;␤ expecting any of:␤ scoped declarator␤»
pmurias find it impossible to sign in on chromatic's blog to comment 18:05
nwc10 the only thing I feel confident saying is that I think that parrot suffered a *lot* from a lack of dogfood. 18:08
in that, there was no push to minimise the bootstrap to a working parrot, and then use that to run the rest of the build system 18:09
hence Parrot's developers rarely actually end up running ./parrot (or a language atop it) for the tasks they work on the most
I'm not sure if that's directly relevant to Rakudo or any other Perl 6 implementaiton. I don't know enough 18:10
18:11 xinming left
masak RC task page created: rosettacode.org/wiki/Average_loop_length 18:11
moritz masak++
masak I'm proud of what has become of my previous RC task page. please make me proud of this one, too ;) 18:12
dalek kudo/nom: cdb0fa6 | (Tobias Leich)++ | src/core/Exception.pm:
fixed typos of X::Import::Redeclaration's message

The list of symbols at the end only makes sense to print if they were not mentioned before.
masak nwc10: well, I do believe we dogfood quite a bit here on #perl6. and every time we do, we notice the benefits of it. could always dogfood more, of course. 18:13
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masak actually, I notice two kinds of dogfooding, even. one is "use Perl 6 as part of developing Perl 6". another is "use Perl 6 in dayjob." 18:13
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masak even goofing off with a mini-challenge, like I just did, generated a rakudobug. :) 18:17
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pmurias nwc10: I use nqp a lot when working on nqp-js, but I don't use Perl6 besides developing Perl6 at all 18:24
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moritz std: our Str a 18:30
p6eval std a8bc48f: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Multiple prefix constraints not yet supported at /tmp/wbkt8Q60QJ line 1:␤------> our Str ⏏a␤Malformed our at /tmp/wbkt8Q60QJ line 1:␤------> our Str ⏏a␤ expecting any of:␤ multi_declarator␤ typen…
18:31 fgomez joined
masak pmurias: I find that even when I'm working in other languages, quite often I'm "thinking" in Perl 6. does that happen to you too? 18:37
pmurias no 18:38
dalek ast: 28a82e8 | moritz++ | S (2 files):
RT #75640
moritz happens to me
pmurias masak: "thinking" in NQP is not something I would be particularly fond of ;)
flussence There's been too much negativity outside today, so: Parrot is a good idea with good intentions, and the language which the majority of its users install it for is one of the nicer ones I've used even though it's incomplete.
masak pmurias: :) 18:39
flussence: agreed on both counts. 18:40
flussence: though focusing on the positive aspects isn't enough for me in this case. Parrot could be better and Perl 6 could be more complete :)
timotimo where did this negativity come from? 18:41
masak I'm assuming reddit. 18:43
outside of the echo chamber, there's another chamber, where people tend to vent on Perl 6. 18:44
sometimes with factual statements. seldom in a nice way.
[Coke] and outside of THAT chamber, people say, "Perl? Isn't that dead?" ;)
moritz rakudo: sub foo ( $f = rand ) { say $f; }; say 18:46
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«␤»
moritz rakudo: sub foo ( $f = rand ) { say $f; }; say Capture.new() ~~ &foo.signature
p6eval rakudo f5037e: OUTPUT«True␤»
18:49 isBEKaml left, xilo_ joined, fgomez left, fgomez joined 18:50 GlitchMr joined
dalek ast: 834d159 | moritz++ | S03-smartmatch/capture-signature.t:
RT #77164, smart-matching against a signature with a default value
 18:50
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[Coke] ETOOMANYCHAMBERS? 18:58
18:59 SmokeMachine left, SmokeMachine joined 19:02 SmokeMac_ left, am0c joined 19:06 SmokeMac_ joined 19:09 SmokeMachine left
dalek ast: 0093451 | moritz++ | S03-operators/range.t:
RT #77572, infix .. is not associative
 19:13
19:13 xilo_ left
dalek rl6-roast-data: 8d64c33 | coke++ | / (4 files):
today (automated commit)
 19:14
[Coke] au++ # pugs back on the board with 33.83% of rakudo. 19:15
dalek ast: b428149 | moritz++ | S32-exceptions/misc.t:
RT #77582, error message when method is not found on a Hash
 19:16
[Coke] (down from 40.81% on 10/10/12 - mostly just needs fudging) 19:17
moritz rakudo: () .= ()
p6eval rakudo cdb0fa: OUTPUT«Method '' not found for invocant of class 'Parcel'␤ in method dispatch:<.=> at src/gen/CORE.setting:949␤ in block at /tmp/TQZu2eZI53:1␤␤»
moritz std: () .= ()
p6eval std a8bc48f: OUTPUT«Potential difficulties:␤ Unsupported use of .= as append operator; in Perl 6 please use ~= at /tmp/nGVsi7cG8d line 1:␤------> () .=⏏ ()␤ok 00:00 43m␤»
moritz is fine with either error message 19:18
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masak huh -- Rakudo passed ~1000 new tests on 2012-11-03, taking Niecza down from 90.17% to 86.46%. what was that? 19:24
masak goes looking in Rakudo's history
ah. heredocs :) 19:25
perigrin .seen dukeleto 19:26
phenny perigrin: Sorry, I haven't seen dukeleto around.
masak apart from that big jump in November, it's just been a gradual slide since Rakudo overtook Niecza in terms of spectests in March. 19:27
nwc10 best reaction to chromatic's post (or any of the naysayers) is prove 'em wrong with working code. 19:28
I hope we're getting there
masak nwc10: chromatic's post? url? 19:29
nwc10 (to be clear, not counting chromatic as a naysayer. He's basing his opinions on experience)
was a reference to him earlier. I assumed that it was this: www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2012/12/...erl-6.html
which correlated with the reference
masak I'm still surprised at how badly chromatic's experience seems to have burned him.
nwc10 I'm not totally. He put a massive amount of effort into doing the unfun debugging of parrot 19:30
particularly GC bugs
something dedicated a chunk of his life to, he now describes as currently being on life support (as best he can tell) 19:31
oh, missed a "he" in there.
masak "Heroics aren't sustainable." -- :( 19:32
masak hugs au++
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supernovus Hi, is there any updates or additional info concerning github.com/perl6/specs/issues/26 as it stands now, SCGI, HTTP::Easy, LWP::Simple, JSON::RPC, and likely many other socket related libraries, are broken. 19:34
masak people; www.modernperlbooks.com/mt/2012/12/...erl-6.html is one of the best posts chromatic++ has written. 19:35
read it.
nwc10 the bots are excused? :-) 19:36
masak bots written in Perl 6 are excused :)
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masak I agree with basically everything. my main point of disagreement with chromatic is his analysis of the current situation and its degree of hopelessness. 19:37
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masak it's easy to miss, but 2012 has been *great*. 19:37
2013 will be better.
nwc10 me too
uvtc Saw the logs. Wanted to chime in, even though my opinion seems pretty orthogonal to what c is talking about.
phenny uvtc: 20 Dec 05:39Z <PerlJam> tell uvtc ah. Thanks. :-)
uvtc Regarding any negativity around Perl 6, my 2 cents is that the language seems rather complicated. My (possibly uninformed) impression is that it's probably complicated enough that the design is extremely difficult to get right. I've got no idea (nor opinion on) how "right" it currently is. I'm (mostly) waiting for there to be an official tutorial before spending more time with it. 19:38
masak there are some things we don't do exceptionally well as an open-source community.
we'll focus on those things. documentation, books, polish, whatever.
_sri hopes the switch to the jvm will be a huge success
masak uvtc: "official tutorial" -- could you be more specific? 19:39
[Coke] _sri: switch is probably not the right word. 19:40
_sri [Coke]: now i'm concerned :S
uvtc I'm waiting for a Larry (or Damian?) to write a tut. When one of them does, to me that will be the bat-signal that it's time for "the masses" to start using Perl 6.
As it stands, I'm pretty confused by Perl 6.
uvtc shrugs. 19:41
masak the Perl 6 community could benefit a lot from pulling in more people. we're not ready to open the floodgates for everyone yet, but I believe there is a huge demographic out there who would be delighted by what's there already, and who would feed a lot of useful improvements back into the system.
Woodi uvtc: official book can take a years :) for C it was probably 10 :)
uvtc I don't need a Camel book. But Larry is (IMO, and others', I assume) a fabulous writer, and Perl 6 is his baby. 19:43
masak "I didn't expect it to be perfect by any means, but I thought it'd at least by usable for some simple scripting tasks and some basic text processing. It wasn't usable for these, unfortunately." -- from news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4987396
I'd just like to say: three years' worth of p6cc contestants disagree.
*I* disagree. 19:44
Woodi uvtc: I vote with two hands for trolling The Two for blogging :)
masak I've been using Rakudo for exactly that for *four years*.
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uvtc masak: I see what you mean; you'd love to attract more implementors at this point. 19:48
Woodi masak: but: no GUI, no DB, NativeCalls not quite working... maybe start with db stuff, what's is needed for DBIsh to work ?
dalek osystem: 4a80264 | (Timothy Totten)++ | META.list:
WWW::App::Easy is now WWW::App::MVC
p/clang++-gh70: 10263fd | rurban++ | / (6 files):
[GH #70] Enable clang++ compilation, proper function ptr casts

Also fix a wrong C++ precedence: & has lower precedence than ==; == will be evaluated first [-Wparentheses]		 19:49
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masak Woodi: as far as I know, DBIish is working. 19:49
people have done GUI stuff, at least in Niecza. 19:50
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supernovus I can confirm that DBIish with SQLite3 works just fine. Not that I can run the WWW::App::MVC test using it at the moment since Rakudo broke the IO::Socket.read() method. 19:51
Woodi hmm, so I have outdated info.. Woodi--
uvtc Woodi: if you mean trolling Larry and/or Damian for blogging, I'd much rather see a github perl6/doc beginner's tut authored by them, but I'm guessing that'll happen when the time is right. 19:52
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Woodi uvtc: why you want read ONLY tut from them ? it would be nice but someone other can write nice pages too me think... 19:54
and if you work in Sweden you can learn perl6 in school :)
masak that is true.
then again, we've always been ahead of the curve here in .se 19:55
Woodi :)
however private schools costs :)
doy for what it's worth, github.com/doy/p6-bread-board/blob...d/Board.pm is what i was working on the past week or so
and while i did manage to make my way through it
masak I still remember the morning when taking the hoverboard to work started to feel... tedious. 19:56
doy the number of bugs/nyi things i ran into was fairly disheartening
masak doy: yes, I was surprised too.
doy just as another data point
masak doy: I noticed you were running up against things.
doy: I think I submitted O(3) bug reports thanks to your work. 19:57
doy i feel like a lot of the "it's not that buggy!" discussion comes from people who *have* been using it for 4 years now, and so know the parts of the language to avoid
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masak there should be a name for that effect. 19:57
uvtc Woodi: it's not always easy collaborating on a cohesive opinionated doc. Anyhow, like I said, given the boundary conditions here, my guess is ... well, what I wrote above. :)
masak I noticed the same when writing the adventure game. "works here!" -- yeah, because I know which path to take through the game, and seldom try other paths. 19:58
doy: that's yet another reason to bring in new people.
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masak doy: we need to sandpaper as many bright new minds against the implementations as possible. 19:58
some people will burn out as a result, because that's how sandpaper works. 19:59
but the implementations will become more polished for it.
supernovus Yeah, I've rewritten several of my libraries multiple times over the last 4 years. The alpha to ng migration. The ng to nom migration. I'd like not to have to rewrite all the network related stuff to use a less intuitive read() method, but it seems nobody is interested in reverting to the DWIM behaviour. Maybe some new methods should be added to the spec, so we can have a choice between the Berkeley style and the DWIM style. TIMTO 20:00
WTDI and all that?
masak supernovus: fwiw, I think I heard pmichaud saying that he doesn't like the current state of .read breakage. 20:02
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supernovus I like the idea of supporting both methodologies, a more "raw" version for those who want the closest-to-metal implementation, and a nice DWIM version for those of us who just want to be able to do a $socket.read($header-length); and have it "just work" :-) 20:04
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supernovus Even if the DWIM version is just a candy coating for the more basic version, which is always what I assumed it to be anyway. 20:05
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Woodi I was thinked about Berkeley sockets too... that Berkekeley API is standard and we should have it in Perl6. new gethostbyname (ip[46]) and rest too... universal 'read' and 'write' working in fs and network is good for general usage... but supernovus++ already say that :) 20:07
POSIX:: modules via NativeCalls ? 20:08
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supernovus read() for DWIM version, and sread() for raw version? I dunno, I'm not a spec designer. I just know as a library author that the ability to say $header = $socket.read($header-length); and have it "just work" was amazingly brilliant in the previous Rakudo IO implementation, and I'd really like something like that back. 20:13
If you don't want two methods, you could have a named option to the read() method, say "exact" which would force it to use the DWIM semantics and return a Buf of the exact size (given that much data exists of course.) If omitted, the length becomes a "maximum" as per its current incarnation. 20:17
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masak supernovus: it feels to me that what you just said should go into an issue/ticket somewhere. do you know of one? I think I saw one flash by a week or so ago. 20:20
doy the trouble with dwim interfaces to reading/writing type things is that you have to be very careful to get error handling correct 20:21
the reason the berkeley sockets api works the way that it does is that it's trivial to see that it's working correctly 20:22
and then you can add whatever amount of error handling you want on top of it
supernovus masak: I could update github.com/perl6/specs/issues/26 to include at least a couple of my potential suggestions. I don't know what the best approach is, I'm just offering some basic ideas. 20:23
FROGGS doy: I had the same experience like you. I wanted to port SDL, then recognized than I need a bit more than NativeCall, so I made Inline::C and then I ran into a bug that prevents merging multis
masak supernovus: please do. 20:24
supernovus: a copy-paste of what you've said here would be valuable.
doy i think that perl 6 probably has a robust enough exception mechanism to make writing a dwim thing doable
FROGGS doy: but as of today the bug is "fixed" (must be approved and applied), so the stuff I wrote will work in near future
doy you just have to be careful about it
supernovus doy: I agree that error handling must be done well. I also think we need to offer the Berkeley socket API, but that Perl 6, being the language to "make hard things easy" needs to have an easier way to do things than that. 20:25
masak FROGGS: welcome to my world. :)
doy (and a low level api where you have to handle more things yourself is preferable to a higher level api where you might just randomly drop data sometimes)
masak FROGGS: workarounds, it's an art and a science :)
FROGGS finally arrived in masak's world! o/ 20:27
supernovus As to be honest, rewriting all of the libraries to use a "read $*fixed-length number of bytes, until byte count is exactly $desired-length in a loop, then do what you want with the data" done in every single networking related library seems like a lot of unnecessary duplication when we could offer a version in the core that does exactly that in the background, but to the library-author, just returns $desired-bytes up front. No loo 20:28
p necessary.
moritz supernovus: I think it was a parrot change that caused rakudo's changed behavior
supernovus: and I can totally see why a user wants the old behavior 20:29
so, IMHO that's rakudo bug
is there a ticket for that?
masak don't think so.
please file.
Woodi additional problem is parrot - it is Perl5 VM - it have the moust used things built in. so a lot of duplications for implementing std api's. 20:30
moritz cannot parse that sentence
and my disambiguation attempts hit semantic errors
FROGGS moritz: there is a github issue and a discussion 20:31
moritz rakudo doesn't have github issues enabled
Woodi parrot is like Perl5 VM - have buffering for providing perl-ish look and feel, have a lot of syscals...
FROGGS moritz: here, in specs: github.com/perl6/specs/issues/26 20:32
supernovus Maybe, use the DWIM version of read() by default (since it was the default behaviour up until recently), and offer the more raw version under a different method name, or by requesting it via a named parameter.
FROGGS supernovus: well, it would do what it does right now if you pass 512, right? 20:33
so this "default chunk size parameter" just must be mentioned somewhere
rurban nqp seems to be broken: Missing or wrong version of dependency 'src/stage2/NQPCORE.setting' 20:34
supernovus FROGGS: In theory it would do what it does not if you pass 512, yeah.
moritz rurban: what are you doing to get that error message?
supernovus s:g/not/now/
rurban make realclean; perl Configure.PL && make 20:35
with latest parrot installed
FROGGS supernovus: so I'd vote for implementation notes in the spec or somewhere else 20:36
moritz builds now
rurban about the parrot read issues: we need a parrot ticket for this. and a testcase.
masak wow, I just assumed that there was a Parret ticket for .read already :/ 20:39
why did I assume that?
Parrot*
rurban I cannot even find the perl6 ticket about it... 20:40
timotimo how true is the statement that parrot is almost dead?
or did i misunderstand?
moritz rurban: because there isn't one
rurban I just forwarded it to whiteknight, but he is busy. So I'll bite into it.
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masak rurban: there's just github.com/perl6/specs/issues/26 20:40
rurban++
moritz timotimo: parrot development seems to happen in bursts these days
rurban timotimo: I have no idea. The parrot Changelog and branches are even more active than rakudo 20:41
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moritz sometimes rurban++ or nine++ or whiteknight++ do some big-ish stuff 20:41
and other month the changelog reads as if only minor build stuff was fixed
*months
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rurban moritz: github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/909 20:44
moritz rurban: fwiw nqp master built fine for me, on parrot 4.10.0
rurban interesting. so maybe I broke it.
clang++ 3.3 -fsanitize=address testing 20:45
supernovus gotta go, be back later
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moritz rurban: you might try git clean -xdf in nqp 20:45
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moritz that's usually more thorough than make realclean 20:45
rurban: thanks for opening the ticket 20:46
rurban but I have a lot of threads patches lying around there :)
moritz rurban: I'm now trying it again with parrot/master, but this machine is very slow, so might take some time :-) 20:47
rurban mine is faster, almost done
nope, so parrot-4.11 is to blame here 20:48
same error
I changed the pmc and the ops compiler...
hmm... 20:49
Missing or wrong version of dependency 'src/stage2/QRegex.nqp'
FROGGS forgot to 'make install' ? 20:52
rurban Nope, but I cleaned make install also...
There were a lot of changes lately
moritz erm
Can't locate Parrot/Pmc2c/PCCMETHOD_BITS.pm in @INC
that's what I get while trying to build nqp
rurban good
That's github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/890 then
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rurban thanks for the catch, my error. will be fixed immediately 20:55
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rurban cannot reproduce, and could not find a parrot error. I got ./src/stage0/NQP-s0.pir:.annotate 'file', "src/stage2/gen/NQP.pm" but src/stage2/ does not exist yet 21:03
sorear o/ 21:04
FROGGS hi sorear
masak sorear! \o/
[Coke] wonders if one of you has an installed parrot elsewhere that is confusing things.
Woodi hmm, so nqp-not-on-parrot need to implement all file bufferings ? 21:05
moritz rurban: if it helps, my rakudo dir is actually a symlink 21:06
moritz@lara:~>ls -ld p6/rakudo
lrwxrwxrwx 1 moritz moritz 35 Apr 30 2010 p6/rakudo -> /nocrypt-home/moritz/source/rakudo/
rurban I'm building nqp from a clean git clone'd dir
independent form rakudo
from 21:07
trying now --gen-parrot (4.10.0)
moritz well, my nqp and parrot dirs are below the rakudo dir
[Coke] rurban++ btw, for hanging out in this channel. Thanks.
rurban well, there is a big change that I broke rakudo :) 21:08
ok, with --gen-parrot it works fine. 21:09
moritz 4.10.0 worked for me too 21:10
rurban I'll bisect it
wanted to say: well, there is a big chance that I broke rakudo 21:12
we are doing parrot-5.0 testing now
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moritz rurban: should I open an issue for Can't locate Parrot/Pmc2c/PCCMETHOD_BITS.pm ? 21:19
rurban nqp compiled ok with parrot master if created via --gen-parrot RELEASE_4_11_0-98-g5d697e5
moritz: that's your problem. you must do a make clean before make install. 21:20
moritz rurban: make clean in parot?
rurban make install will just install the freshly generated files, and this files was left over
yes
moritz ok
rurban make install is driven now from a generated MANIFEST.generated
moritz will do 21:21
rurban previously it was a hardcoded MANIFEST.generated (with a lot of old cruft)
(and some missing entries)
so nqp only has a problem from a globally installed parrot 21:22
tipdbmp How to resolve the "circular dependency": class A { method a(B $b) { ... } } class B { method b(A $a) { ... } }
doy tipdbmp: class B {...} at the beginning 21:23
tipdbmp Nope, same thing.
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masak those ... dots are literal. 21:23
you literally put them in.
r: class B { ... }; class A { method a(B $b) {} }; class B { method b(A $a) {} }; say "alive!" 21:24
p6eval rakudo cdb0fa: OUTPUT«alive!␤»
doy class B {...}; class A { method a(B $b) { ... } }; class B { method b(A $a) { ... } }
tipdbmp The error is that type methoda a(B $b) # type B is not found / typename not found
masak tipdbmp: works; see above.
tipdbmp Oh, I see.
masak literal dots? :) 21:25
tadzik good evening
kurahaupo Can they be spelt with a unicode elipsis instead? \u2026
masak tadzik! \o/
kurahaupo: not in standard Perl 6, no.
tadzik good day :)
kurahaupo masak: there are a bunch of useful extra punctuation in the \u2010 ~ \u205f range; in particular think \u2024 "…" for "..." and \u2047 "⁇" for "??" would be nice to have. 21:30
masak kurahaupo: if it were up to me, we would have *less* Unicode in Perl 6, not more. :) 21:33
doy say "hi" if defined $foo 21:34
kurahaupo Fair point.
diakopter masak++
masak kurahaupo: sorry, I know that's the boring, unadventurous answer. 21:35
kurahaupo: all is fair if you predeclare, though.
'use More::Unicode;'
rurban moritz: strange github.com/perl6/nqp/issues/71
kurahaupo use Even::More::Unicode :with(punctuation); 21:36
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pmichaud rurban: (nqp #71) did you do a "make clean" or "make realclean" before attempting to build nqp using the globally installed parrot? 21:48
rurban even git clean -dxf
I have a little patch to test parrot master with nqp 21:49
at #71
pmichaud that patch doesn't look right to me 21:50
masak phenny: tell grondilu that I think rosettacode.org/mw/index.php?title=...did=149561 made a mathematical-looking expression much less easy to understand :/
phenny masak: I'll pass that on when grondilu is around.
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rurban if you tell tools/build/PARROT_REVSION (same for NQP) to force master, then the cmp_rev should always win. 21:51
pmichaud PARROT_REVISION should never be set to 'master'
rurban because there's nothing bigger than master
pmichaud it's always supposed to be an actual revision number
rurban I wanted to test master with --gen-parrot, but got an wrong looking error 21:52
pmichaud should be --gen-parrot=master
if that doesn't work, it's a bug
rurban oh, thanks 21:53
$ perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot=master
Unrecognized revision specifier 'master'
pmichaud but changing PARROT_REVISION to 'master' isn't really the intent
rurban I know.
just a hack to test it
masak phenny: tell grondilu also, I can't reproduce the bug you seem to be compensating for in rosettacode.org/mw/index.php?title=...did=149562 -- old rakudo?
phenny masak: I'll pass that on when grondilu is around.
pmichaud pmichaud@kiwi:~/p6/nqp$ perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot=master 21:54
Cloning into 'parrot'...
...works here.
rurban It failed because I had master as PARROT_REVISION 21:55
now it works for me also.
I deleted my hack
pmichaud one can use --gen-parrot with any (git) revision specifier, including branches. 21:56
same goes for Rakudo
rurban I still have the nqp compile problem with a new installed parrot devel version 22:00
(I deleted the wrong comments about my hack)
pmichaud master branch? 22:02
(parrot master?)
rurban yes
pmichaud testing locally
rurban I think it has something to do with -devel
And I don't understand the ModuleLoader logic 22:03
pmichaud I don't understand "-devel"
you mean the fact of building from a git clone version? 22:04
rurban This is Parrot version 4.11.0-devel built for amd64-linux
yes
pmichaud well, that's what --gen-parrot typically does
rurban but it works if installed into install/
pmichaud it works if parrot master is installed into install/ ? 22:05
rurban I'll compare the two trees...
yes
pmichaud there shouldn't be much of a difference there, then
dalek p: 8423e0a | pmichaud++ | Configure.pl:
Change Configure.pl --help to mention [=branch] option of --gen-parrot.
rurban thanks
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pmichaud I get 22:06
Can't locate Parrot/Pmc2c/PCCMETHOD_BITS.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/pmichaud/p6/parrot/install/lib/4.11.0-devel/tools/build/../../lib /home/pmichaud/p6/parrot/install/lib/4.11.0-devel/tools/build/../lib /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.14.2 /usr/local/share/perl/5.14.2 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.14 /usr/share/perl/5.14 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at /home/pmichaud/p6/parrot/install/lib/4.11.0-devel/tools/build/../lib/Parrot/Pmc2
rurban same as moritz
pmichaud from pmc2c
rurban hmm, this indicates that your parrot was not clean before make install 22:07
pmichaud I just did a fresh checkout, git clean -xdf, configure, make, makeinstall
rurban MANIFEST.generated did not contain all files it should generate
pmichaud but I can do it again
rurban hmm...
This was a recent change 22:08
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rurban I see. git clean -dxf does not clean parrot/ 22:09
this is a leftover 22:10
pmichaud but I'm not ussing parrot/
since I installed in a different location
still, I'm removing parrot/ explicitly and see if I get the same result.
rurban manually rm -rf parrot/ solved it for me
diakopter I had that exact problem a while ago
I suspected it was because parrot was in the .gitignore 22:11
rurban Maybe we should make install more stable.
pmichaud if it's finding a wrong parrot, that indicates a path problem somewhere with parrot.
rurban check for Parrot/Pmc2c/PCCMETHOD_BITS
pmichaud correct, doing rm -rf parrot from the nqp directory seems to have solved the problem for me as well 22:13
so, something in pmc2c is looking in the wrong place or grabbing the wrong parrot binary/libraries
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pmichaud either that or nqp's Makefile is grabbing the wrong pmc2c 22:14
rurban I'll fix this: github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/910 22:16
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rurban include/parrot/4.11.0-devel vs include/4.11.0-devel 22:26
parrot_config versiondir is different 22:27
parrot_config versiondir vs install/bin/parrot_config versiondir
do you have a special parrot prefix or version dir logic? I don't see any. I'll check parrot 22:29
we have one. 22:31
moritz rurban: fvwiw rakudo and nqp build fine for me on parrot RELEASE_4_11_0-98-g5d697e5
moritz -> sleep 22:32
rurban There is a strange parrot logic which check the buildpath if it includes /parrot
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rurban mine does 22:32
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pmichaud ...checks the buildpath or install path? 22:42
rurban install path, but with installpath it is under the buildpath 22:43
but with --gen-parrot the installpath is ...
pmichaud that checking for /parrot sounds completely bogus to me (more) 22:44
for example, I often install to a path that includes '/parrot' somewhere in the path, even if it's not part of the build tree
rurban yes, this logic needs to be a bit stricter. But now I have the catch the real bug caused by this. 22:45
pmichaud looking at the pathname for a specific string sounds very fragile to me
rurban See config/init/install.pm:42 22:46
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rurban hmm, the versiondir logic seems good to me. if under parrot already omit another /parrot/... 22:50
dalek rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: 0f0bb50 | jonathan++ | src/binder/bind.c: 23:03
rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: Teach compile time bind analysis about (|) sig.
rakudo/froggs_mergemulti:
rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: It now recognizes such a signature as accepting anything, and thus
rakudo/froggs_mergemulti: certain to be a successful match.
23:03 dalek left
FROGGS uhh 23:03
23:03 dalek joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v dalek
dalek ast/froggs_mergemulti: f579a22 | (Tobias Leich)++ | S11-modules/import-multi.t:
new tests for multi symbol merging
 23:07
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masak ♞y-♞, #perl6 23:18
FROGGS aloa 23:20
bbkr github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/909 - looks like Rakudo socket issue goes deeper. fix was marked as milestone for parrot 5.0. will there be any workaround till then on Rakudo/NQP level? 23:21
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rurban bbkr: yes, I marked it as milestone for the next release. At least we need some decisions, change spec or force changing user code. 23:43
bbkr rurban: thanks!
FROGGS bbrk: a workaround in rakudo might be pretty simple when looking at this: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/...pm#L26-L34 23:46
rindolf Hi all. 23:47
FROGGS, rurban , masak , pmichaud : meow. 23:48
rindolf wrote the most ad-hoc XML grammar ever.
FROGGS hi rindolf
rindolf But it only has an RNG and a sample XML file - not an XSLT yet.
I can try converting it to DocBook instead of XHTML directly. 23:49
23:50 MikeFair_ joined
bbkr FROGGS: should it be reported as rakudobug then? from user point of view - it is rakudobug because current behavior does not match spec, right? 23:50
FROGGS bbkr: I think so too, but I'm still a n00b here, so not 100% sure 23:51
bbkr: I'd love to fix it though 23:54
bbkr FROGGS: I'm preparing simple code to demonstrate differences between 2012.11 and 2012.12. Then I will create ticket so change will be documented. Rest is up to you because I'm a total nqp/pir noob :) 23:59

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